With a turbine? Sounds like a cool project, I'm putting a smaller version of this on a multirotor currently. I gotta get some more videos uploaded of it. Good luck with your project!
@@perrinoneill1656 As soon as I get some time to edit them, I've got lots of unedited videos, and I'm currently working on putting a small version of this system on a dodecacopter drone! I am excited to try to fly it later this week. I'll post it up as soon as I get it going.
@@ElectroTechnics sir the setup you have was exactly what i was looking for I hope you read this!! at idle you barely generate any power or thrust while consuming a relatively large amount of fuel in comparison to generating huge amounts of power and thrust at 70% throttle while consuming a bit more fuel than idle What i am suggesting is that the turbine engine is ran at max power then the electric motor is used in regenerative or generator mode to put load on the engine which drops its rpm to the max efficiency rpm This will generate both thrust from the propeller and provide constant current You will measure that current generated at that point and accordingly size your edfs to benifit from every Watt generated I believe this will provide the best performance and efficiency on average Please let me know what you think
@@FirstLast-tx3yj Yes! That's the ideal operation mode for this. The larger scale tests plan is a turbo prop engine with a hydraulic variable pitch prop, so it will automatically adjust the "load" of the propeller to maintain the optimal RPM. Ideally we can adjust the amount of "regenerative braking" on the motor depending on the electrical demand, and the prop will automatically adjust to keep the RPM up when the generator loads down.
To maximize total efficiency you want the turbo engine and generator in a constant load configuration for the majority of it's operating time. The turbine engine specs should list it's most efficient operating conditions. This should be the target charge rate for a battery / capacitor storage system. With a properly engineered load buffered system the variable current draw of the power transmission system should not impact the load placed on the turbo generator. The varying load conditions are the source of the inefficiencies and most of the pollutants in (ICE) internal combustion engines. Load buffering is absolutely paramount in achieving maximum efficiency with the lowest emissions possible. This is true regardless of the ICE used and has not been implemented in a single hybrid electric vehicle I am aware of at this point in time.
I agree there is an optimal torque for each RPM of these BLDC motors and of the engine as well. Ideally you match the efficiency curves of both the prime mover (engine) and the generator to match at your most common load power level. There are ways of implementing an adaptive hybrid controls scheme using active 3 phase boost rectification instead of a diode rectifier (like I show here) that can give you much more control of the torque and RPM of the generation/engine, allowing you to optimize and get the best efficiency at off-design lower power levels, even it if isn't as efficient as the on design conditions. I've seen lots of new UAS hybrid power systems utilizing this type of controls scheme in recent years. Many hybrid automotives employ control systems similar to this and will start and stop the engine using the battery to "buffer" the power system allowing the engine / generator to operate closer to its max efficiency recharging the battery when it does cycle on.
@@ElectroTechnics he’s back! Nice yea I’m working on adaptive hybrid control system. Using a KingTech KT45TP. UAS runs of a 12s lipo the engine is controlled by a teensy will run engine in a voltage range while controlling change rates to keep packs at a safe charge rate, while also compensating for the current draw from the UAS bus. Let me know if ur still working on this. Should discuss.
@dronelabs556 Cool! I worked on that same type of thing as one of the next phases of this project. Used an Arduino instead of a Teensy to run engine PID. If I did it again I would use a VESC as an active 3 phase boost rectifier, that's gives you so much more control authority to handle efficiency optimization, battery recharge, and more. I'm always happy to talk about projects like this, just shoot me a message on here.
This is the exact setup I'm hoping to use to provide power to an electric motorcycle project idea I've been tinkering around with. i looked a wile back to see if anyone has done a similar setup and found nothing, it seems in the mean time you ended up doing exactly the setup.
@@ElectroTechnics I am really looking forward to that!!! I am working on getting my pilot's license and looking at airplanes to buy. I don't know on someone hasn't done what you are doing on a large scale platform. It seems to me like a small gas turbine or piston type engine acting as a generator for a constant power output to a electric motor would make a fantastic airplane.
@@gsxr600rafii I could see the hybrid design allowing powering a distributed propulsion system which could open up the possibilities for small manned aircraft capable of vertical take off and landing. Maybe a plane like a Cessna with 4 lift rotors that electrical power could be diverted to for take off and landing similar to a multi-rotor drone.
@@ElectroTechnics I realised here that you take AC from the generator convert to DC with the rectifier then input DC in the controllers and output ac for the edf fans A simpler setup I would suggest is to connect the edf fans directly to the generators And you throttle the fans by controlling the regen on the generator motor When you add regen the fans will spin higher and when you decrease regen they will shut off Given that the edf can withstant the 60V from the generator
First of all, really good job. These days, I'm thinking of setting up such a system. But before I buy materials, I want to be sure of what I will be using. Could you please share the model and kv of the engine that produces the electricity?
Little late to the party, but what about a turbo prop style setup? Spinning a turbocharger style impeller directly with the bldc, with the exhaust power turbine connected ONLY to a propeller or ducted fan? You could route your charge air exactly the same, bldc spins intake turbine, exhaust turbine drives propeller. Add fuel to combustion chamber all the same?
Hello, i would be interested to know more details about this. I might use this in a project myself (Not airplane but as hybrid propulsion system) Could you share more details about how did you choose the right generator motor, the diode system to convert to DC, etc ?
For a personal ground vehicle? Sounds like a cool project. There is a lot that goes into sizing a system like this, but a good starting point is figuring out what your power requirements are, cruise power vs max power, what RPM and what Torques you need for the engine and the final drive. Then you can start to identify a battery, motor, controller, etc that have compatible voltages at the right power range. I would not recommend using a diode rectifier the way I showed here, it is not a robust way of doing it. VESCs are great motor controllers and can be used to run the generator in "Regen" mode and can drive motors from batteries efficiently. Since there is interest I may make a video that goes over how to build a hybrid drivetrain for a personal vehicle. I've been thinking about making a hybrid go-kart or something as a for-fun project.
Damnit! This is some serious stuff. Mind-boggling! Do you have any suggestions for the literature which can help to understand the power conversion? Thanks.
There is no addition capacitor, although the motor controllers connected to it have capacitors on their DC inlet bus, so technically there is some capacitance added after the rectifier.
Very late reply, but it is just the "fluid" coupling of gas from the engine core to the shaft's separate turbine. The output shaft is not directly connected, power is only transferring through the jet exhaust stream, it starts spinning after the engine starts to spool as initially the exhaust speed is not high enough to turn the shaft until the engine starts to spin up.
It's a 120x90mm motor. Here is the link: mymobilemms.com/OFFTHEGRIDWATER.CA/Brushless-Motor/20KW-12090-Brushless-Out-Runner-Motor-50-130kv-Large-Air-Craft
If I recall correctly this was an unbranded Chinese motor that came from eBay or AliExpress. It was cheap and was selected as the budget was very small. Otherwise I would not recommend using this motor, there are much high quality motors with better efficiencies available, but for the low price point this motor was not bad.
This is exactly what i was thinking. But than with just a combustion engine. Haha you made a turbo charged jet hahah Awsome! But bro. Safety firts. Youre talking about 7000 rpm And you dont have a barijg between the flexible coupling and the motor? You dare standing there while filming. If the thing snaps, and you get a little disballance at 7000rpm. You'd better be wearing a helmet. Better make 2 on top of eachother, just to be Shure. 😉 Dit you make any progression lately?
Hey thanks for watching and commenting. These couplings were small I wasn't too worried about it flying apart 😂. I haven't worked on this in a few years now but where I left off I was working on using a VESC 75/300 as an active 3 phase boost rectifier in place of the diode rectifier. It provides way more control of the system and higher efficiency levels.
I have lots of unedited videos of additional work I did on this project. One of these days I may find time to dig them up, edit, and finally post the updates.
Jet A still packs more energy per volume than Li-ion batteries. Even with additional losses in the energy conversion chain, electric flight and avionics run times are potentially increased.
Dude this is exactly what im busy with with a drone of mine. Good work so far
With a turbine? Sounds like a cool project, I'm putting a smaller version of this on a multirotor currently. I gotta get some more videos uploaded of it. Good luck with your project!
@@ElectroTechnics yes same setup as yours but im running 3 120mm edf units. When you posting more vids?
@@perrinoneill1656 As soon as I get some time to edit them, I've got lots of unedited videos, and I'm currently working on putting a small version of this system on a dodecacopter drone! I am excited to try to fly it later this week. I'll post it up as soon as I get it going.
@@ElectroTechnics sir the setup you have was exactly what i was looking for
I hope you read this!!
at idle you barely generate any power or thrust while consuming a relatively large amount of fuel in comparison to generating huge amounts of power and thrust at 70% throttle while consuming a bit more fuel than idle
What i am suggesting is that the turbine engine is ran at max power then the electric motor is used in regenerative or generator mode to put load on the engine which drops its rpm to the max efficiency rpm
This will generate both thrust from the propeller and provide constant current
You will measure that current generated at that point and accordingly size your edfs to benifit from every Watt generated
I believe this will provide the best performance and efficiency on average
Please let me know what you think
@@FirstLast-tx3yj Yes! That's the ideal operation mode for this. The larger scale tests plan is a turbo prop engine with a hydraulic variable pitch prop, so it will automatically adjust the "load" of the propeller to maintain the optimal RPM. Ideally we can adjust the amount of "regenerative braking" on the motor depending on the electrical demand, and the prop will automatically adjust to keep the RPM up when the generator loads down.
To maximize total efficiency you want the turbo engine and generator in a constant load configuration for the majority of it's operating time. The turbine engine specs should list it's most efficient operating conditions. This should be the target charge rate for a battery / capacitor storage system. With a properly engineered load buffered system the variable current draw of the power transmission system should not impact the load placed on the turbo generator. The varying load conditions are the source of the inefficiencies and most of the pollutants in (ICE) internal combustion engines. Load buffering is absolutely paramount in achieving maximum efficiency with the lowest emissions possible. This is true regardless of the ICE used and has not been implemented in a single hybrid electric vehicle I am aware of at this point in time.
Sadly they haven’t posted in some time.
Yeah sorry, been super busy. I've got more videos to upload on this at some point!
I agree there is an optimal torque for each RPM of these BLDC motors and of the engine as well. Ideally you match the efficiency curves of both the prime mover (engine) and the generator to match at your most common load power level. There are ways of implementing an adaptive hybrid controls scheme using active 3 phase boost rectification instead of a diode rectifier (like I show here) that can give you much more control of the torque and RPM of the generation/engine, allowing you to optimize and get the best efficiency at off-design lower power levels, even it if isn't as efficient as the on design conditions. I've seen lots of new UAS hybrid power systems utilizing this type of controls scheme in recent years. Many hybrid automotives employ control systems similar to this and will start and stop the engine using the battery to "buffer" the power system allowing the engine / generator to operate closer to its max efficiency recharging the battery when it does cycle on.
@@ElectroTechnics he’s back! Nice yea I’m working on adaptive hybrid control system. Using a KingTech KT45TP. UAS runs of a 12s lipo the engine is controlled by a teensy will run engine in a voltage range while controlling change rates to keep packs at a safe charge rate, while also compensating for the current draw from the UAS bus. Let me know if ur still working on this. Should discuss.
@dronelabs556 Cool! I worked on that same type of thing as one of the next phases of this project. Used an Arduino instead of a Teensy to run engine PID. If I did it again I would use a VESC as an active 3 phase boost rectifier, that's gives you so much more control authority to handle efficiency optimization, battery recharge, and more. I'm always happy to talk about projects like this, just shoot me a message on here.
This is the exact setup I'm hoping to use to provide power to an electric motorcycle project idea I've been tinkering around with. i looked a wile back to see if anyone has done a similar setup and found nothing, it seems in the mean time you ended up doing exactly the setup.
Hi, fantastic job! How many milliliters does it consume minute by minute to produce 10kw? Can you share the test data? Thanks a lot anyway
I don't understand why anyone has not made this on a large scale yet. But with propellers versus duct fans
I'm working on a larger scale version of this for testing with manned aircraft. Over the next year I should have a video of some test runs!
@@ElectroTechnics I am really looking forward to that!!! I am working on getting my pilot's license and looking at airplanes to buy. I don't know on someone hasn't done what you are doing on a large scale platform. It seems to me like a small gas turbine or piston type engine acting as a generator for a constant power output to a electric motor would make a fantastic airplane.
@@gsxr600rafii I could see the hybrid design allowing powering a distributed propulsion system which could open up the possibilities for small manned aircraft capable of vertical take off and landing. Maybe a plane like a Cessna with 4 lift rotors that electrical power could be diverted to for take off and landing similar to a multi-rotor drone.
@@ElectroTechnics that would be amazing!!!
@@ElectroTechnics I realised here that you take AC from the generator convert to DC with the rectifier
then input DC in the controllers and output ac for the edf fans
A simpler setup I would suggest is to connect the edf fans directly to the generators
And you throttle the fans by controlling the regen on the generator motor
When you add regen the fans will spin higher and when you decrease regen they will shut off
Given that the edf can withstant the 60V from the generator
First of all, really good job. These days, I'm thinking of setting up such a system. But before I buy materials, I want to be sure of what I will be using. Could you please share the model and kv of the engine that produces the electricity?
pero una duda no es mejor poner la caja de engranes y el motor generador al frente de la turbina? genial experimento saludos.
Nice. What is the wattage output? I'd be interested in talking further on a project (paid of course) if you'd be interested
Why you don't use car alternator? It can give much more power
Little late to the party, but what about a turbo prop style setup? Spinning a turbocharger style impeller directly with the bldc, with the exhaust power turbine connected ONLY to a propeller or ducted fan?
You could route your charge air exactly the same, bldc spins intake turbine, exhaust turbine drives propeller. Add fuel to combustion chamber all the same?
so in short you made an rc APU. Epic!
Hello, i would be interested to know more details about this. I might use this in a project myself (Not airplane but as hybrid propulsion system) Could you share more details about how did you choose the right generator motor, the diode system to convert to DC, etc ?
For a personal ground vehicle? Sounds like a cool project. There is a lot that goes into sizing a system like this, but a good starting point is figuring out what your power requirements are, cruise power vs max power, what RPM and what Torques you need for the engine and the final drive. Then you can start to identify a battery, motor, controller, etc that have compatible voltages at the right power range.
I would not recommend using a diode rectifier the way I showed here, it is not a robust way of doing it. VESCs are great motor controllers and can be used to run the generator in "Regen" mode and can drive motors from batteries efficiently.
Since there is interest I may make a video that goes over how to build a hybrid drivetrain for a personal vehicle. I've been thinking about making a hybrid go-kart or something as a for-fun project.
This is awesome
I think you´ve found a feasible powerplant solution for an airworthy Iron Man suit. Thank you
It ain't quite an Arc Reactor but it'll do! 😂
Please make a video series on how to build this. I want to build an electric VTOL that would benefit from this
I´d like to know about the power versus liters of querosene.
👑🤜🇺🇸🤛👑 VERY INEFFICIENT TURBINE. WE ARE DESIGNING AN ULTRA-HIGH EFFICIENCY TURBINE 👑🤜🇺🇸🤛👑
this is the mini version of APU on the aircraft
Exactly, except it would not just provide auxiliary power, but also flight power!
Damnit! This is some serious stuff. Mind-boggling! Do you have any suggestions for the literature which can help to understand the power conversion? Thanks.
Hi there, do you have a capacitor at the diode rectifier? Thank you
There is no addition capacitor, although the motor controllers connected to it have capacitors on their DC inlet bus, so technically there is some capacitance added after the rectifier.
In spooling up the turbine, what causes the electric motor/generator to engage? Is there a centrifugal clutch inline?
Very late reply, but it is just the "fluid" coupling of gas from the engine core to the shaft's separate turbine. The output shaft is not directly connected, power is only transferring through the jet exhaust stream, it starts spinning after the engine starts to spool as initially the exhaust speed is not high enough to turn the shaft until the engine starts to spin up.
This is bad ass
I would love to talk about scaling this up for a vehicle, such as a prius. What rpm does your generator run at? Any chance it's below 10k?
You can use gears ⚙️ to reduce or increase ur RPM right
Excellent job. What brushless motor are you using?
It's a 120x90mm motor. Here is the link: mymobilemms.com/OFFTHEGRIDWATER.CA/Brushless-Motor/20KW-12090-Brushless-Out-Runner-Motor-50-130kv-Large-Air-Craft
Is it K45TPG4 5,2Kw?
Who makes the motor?
If I recall correctly this was an unbranded Chinese motor that came from eBay or AliExpress. It was cheap and was selected as the budget was very small. Otherwise I would not recommend using this motor, there are much high quality motors with better efficiencies available, but for the low price point this motor was not bad.
I guess this is the best way to get long flight times from a drone.
I want one Xd, i really do
What the Prius should have been
Hi guys how many amp produce the diode rectifier?
I believe this one pushed around 200 amps through it.
So he built a model APU !
Essential yes. However, when implemented, this would be supplying propulsion power rather than auxiliary power.
This is exactly what i was thinking.
But than with just a combustion engine.
Haha you made a turbo charged jet hahah
Awsome!
But bro. Safety firts.
Youre talking about 7000 rpm
And you dont have a barijg between the flexible coupling and the motor?
You dare standing there while filming.
If the thing snaps, and you get a little disballance at 7000rpm.
You'd better be wearing a helmet. Better make 2 on top of eachother, just to be Shure. 😉
Dit you make any progression lately?
Hey thanks for watching and commenting. These couplings were small I wasn't too worried about it flying apart 😂. I haven't worked on this in a few years now but where I left off I was working on using a VESC 75/300 as an active 3 phase boost rectifier in place of the diode rectifier. It provides way more control of the system and higher efficiency levels.
I have lots of unedited videos of additional work I did on this project. One of these days I may find time to dig them up, edit, and finally post the updates.
Man i don't think so its economical. You are getting not so much electric current for pouring tons of jet a.
This is true, the kingtech turbine is extremely inefficient and thus wastes lots of fuel.
Jet A still packs more energy per volume than Li-ion batteries. Even with additional losses in the energy conversion chain, electric flight and avionics run times are potentially increased.