Water Thermal Mass for Deep Winter Greenhouse
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- Опубліковано 10 лип 2022
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Amazing plan, thanks and makes me feel like we can survive a Canadian winter without expensive utilities!
Love your design, I went to solar and renewable energy school about 15 years ago, and studied a lot about earthships since, learned a lot about hot water heating then, the evacuated tube collectors outside main problem is there so well insulated that when you have snow or ice on them it doesn't melt unless you clean them off and summer time gets way too hot, I like putting them in the greenhouse its expensive for sure and they break relatively easy. When I sold hot water solar systems in the late 1970s they were a black copper pipe, of course put in pop off valves for over heating, with a half round reflector behind them very simple. Could use shiny flashing bent half round. 1 or more running the whole length of your greenhouse with a solar power pump it would be automatic. I'm not sure about the back wall but definitely mid section. Could be covered in the summer and start heating your thermal mass late in the summer.
Also you could run your system in the summer from your rain water tanks to cool the concrete down , hope that made sense.
It made sense. Thank you. 🙏
Super Impressed
Thinking outside the box.
Retired Plummer.
Keep em coming man ur doing great work
Saw you on Canadian’s Channel. I couldn’t have asked for a better first video to watch!
I’m building up from my family downsizing our property size here in Colorado.
I don’t know if this is the best State to start out in ,$$$… Jack of all Trades, master of none but still better than one! ☕️☕️
I have a Viessmann vac tube solar hot water system and it provides an amazing amount of hot water year round even on an over cast day. I had an apartment building with infloor and no insulation. We had a breakdown and it took a week for parts. The heat sink mass/ground kept the units at 21c for that week in 40c below outside. It really does work. If I was to do it again I would insulate the outside of the foundation. Look into salt for the drums on the back wall as a slow release heat sink. Maybe a solar electric system to run your pumps. Just love your system. I see were Nate is coming when SHTF.
Awesome. Ya, because I insulated the foundation 4 ft down around the perimeter, I shouldn’t loose any heat there or have the cold creep in. I’m really excited about this new revelation of the solar hot water panels. 🙂 thanks for the info. 🙏
@@ArkopiaUA-cam Because our panels are outside there is solar antifreeze in them. I installed a few of those systems before I retired and a note, if installing on a sunny day use gloves to handle the tubs because they get hot almost instantly. Also keep them in the box shaded until you are about to clip them in place. I have a self built 1 KW solar system I built and use to power fridge, freezer and heating system in power outages. I purchased batteries being removed from cell tower sites and cruise ships at a fraction of the cost new.
Here in southern Spain we just use convection solar water heaters, vacuum tubes gets WAY too hot here! Those who tries ends up having to partially cover up their arrays not to boil their systems.
So yeah, they work really well!
Dude, you're on fire right now!
Thanks for all the videos recently. Great work!
Thanks. If only I could work faster I could do more videos. 😂
@@ArkopiaUA-cam That's fine, I don't have all that much time to watch more videos anyway. 🙄
I'm actually working on making my own videos about my off-grid projects as well...
@@calysagora3615 Awesome
Your plans sound intriguing, I can’t wait to see how you set up the tanks and those solar tubes, maybe seeing how it’s done will help me understand more of what you were talking about. I’m a very visual learner. Best of luck with these new ideas.
Such a fantastic idea ... curious how that will work but I'm sure it will be as you expect!!!
MIGardener digs his tomato and pepper plants up and trims the roots and veg and puts them in a pot in the basement to hibernate them until spring ... he says they get a huge jump on the seasonal growth. Wonder if you could do that? Regrow plants but only certain ones -- carrots will just flower ... interesting anyways.
Thank you so much Dean!!! I am certainly gaining knowledge from your videos! Keep them coming :)
👀👍🏻🌟
An Army of One.
Imho your are doing a Fabulous Job 👌 👏
Funny how your videos, are nite and day with most other vids on utoob.
Yourz has amazing content. Not shocking political bs. Thank you for your integrity. Can't stop watching your vids long enuf to do this.
Thank you for amazing and solid content. Quite the surprize. I thirst for your kind of knowledge. Your design and technique has a high level of integrity, and development.
Thank you for your quality & integrity.
Very much appreciate that. 🙏✌️👊
I have these in my house... Brilliant idea to use them for a greenhouse! 💡🌱
Sweet project, can’t wait to see it fully operational.
Well done
Me too. 😂. Thank you. 🙏
As always, love seeing what you're doing with the greenhouse, we're on a lot of the same idea streams^^ AFAIK, the only other reason besides not freezing, they use glycol because it has a higher heat capacity than water, but I would think if you go with water, except for the heat exchange coil area in your storage tank, it will give you another measure of safety against overheating indoors with the tubes, also if you're ever worried about overheating at a part of the year with them, you can always grow something that climbs, cucumbers, beans, etc.that you can tear out when you want tit to get full sun on the tubes.
I think its a good work around for an installed building vs climate battery. Although dont lose the wood stove, love seeing it going when ur chatting in the greenhouse XD I think lots of ppl in the channel would love to join the colony ^^
Oh for sure I’ll keep the wood stove in there. But hopefully it won’t need to run all the time, just occasionally. I’ll put a coil from the wood stove in the infloor heat tank to help that out more too. ✌️
Thank you for the idea, I was thinking of solar air heaters but water is better, thermal mass.👍
Looking great!
Getting there. 👍
Nice set up you got there!
I think you are on to something! There are some designs to build your own solar tubes with PVC piping and glass on the cheap. I like the idea of them being inside. Makes sense. That should also extend the life of them.
Kind of a cool revelation. I was super excited when the idea came to me. 👍
I really love your channel, you are doing all the things I mostly just think about. You are not just a deep thinker but a do'er too and motivating me to get busy.
Awesome. Thanks so much for that. Get workin. 👊✌️
"pretty cool" is an under statement! Will be interesting to see how it works this winter. I agree with your ideas vs earth tubes. So much more control and versatility with water vs air.
Evac tubes are for heating the water, not for holding/storing hot water. The evacuated space between the tube glass and heating pipe acts as an insulator from the very high heat of the heating pipe. Moving more carrier (water/glycol) faster through the heater tubes will help keep it from reaching the boiling point. (60%/40% water&glycol mix should allow for the temperature to got up to around 234 degrees F before boiling. There is not that much of a volume that the tubes can hold. You want a large volume/mass of water to hold/store heat. Better if you could put barrels in a well insulated structure next to the greenhouse ... or even with barrels stacked/and or buried and insulated in the ground.
i’m learning so much. THANK you
A colony of one!
Love it.
Thanks Dean for another great video.
Did you consider larger pex tubing and used car/ home radiators connected to this heat system ?
Also raising the black drums on a strong shelf and fixing the solar thermal tubes below them on the back wall may save space , help coollect rain water and use it for watering by gravity.
Looking forward for completing this nice project and assesing results/ cost-effectiveness.
Please keep up the good work 🙏
Good ideas. I’ve always just used 1/2 inch pex in 300 ft zones. I suppose I could have upped the size. The rain water tanks are going up high and out of the way on some pallet racking. (Square IBC totes). Out of the sun. 👍
I’ve installed a 90 tube of evacuated tube solar collector on my girlfriends house and it works great except it is so efficient it won’t melt snow off. You can boil water easily with it. It’s my suggestion to put it outside though. Use tempering tanks that way you can have unlimited free hot water. I like the water barrel idea better because there’s more sensible heat capacity and just water in a barrel. Yeah might take up 2 feet but believe me it’s worth it in my outside shop I have tons of water barrels and it works amazing. There’s nothing more effective than water in a barrel.
And then of course solar Pv to run the electricity for fans and pumps is a no-brainer. If you need help design in the system you can ask me
Thanks for that. I still like just water in a barrel. It’s so simple, just there, up to temperature, easy peasy. There is an issue with all the plants getting big and shading inside as well. I think you might be right putting the collectors outside on the roof.
Looks good, I think it will work..
Can’t wait to see it done.
Me too. And me too. 🙏
Great job
Check your area for the frost line (how far down your soil freezes). You can put your water storage tanks underground and save space on your property. Below the frost line, dirt is a pretty good insulator. You can eve add extra storage capacity. Rig it so the water circulates, starting towards the end of summer to get a jump on the cold weather. In the dead of winter if you don't get enough sun to heat all of the storage capacity, you might want to make it so you can change over to half capacity. They probably have a formula somewhere to figure out a proper sun to storage ratio. Just make sure you don't drive anything really heavy over that space.
That’s a good idea as well. Underground yo save space. 👍
Yeah I love this idea too. With the evacuated tube system one reason to use glycol in spite of being indoors, may be to inhibit corrosion/scale in the system. Brilliant thinking outside the forms there Dean!
Call it a colony or a 'cult of personality', I think we're ready to drink the Arkopia kool-aid!🙂
Haha. Thanks. Ya, glycol might be for the corrosion or maybe it withstands higher temps. Slowly figuring it out. A bunch of guys told me rain water is best for infloor; I think that is for corrosion prevention as well. ✌️
I don't doubt the rain water in the pex in floor.
Exactly, a radiator with just water in it boils more readily than one with the proper ratio of glycol in it.
It will be interesting to see where you go with this. Thanks for sharing.
Well done : ) !
Hey man, just found your channel, great stuff. Did you make a video where you talk about how you make money to sustain the homestead lifestyle? Thanks
Sorta. We aren’t making much off of the homestead yet. Can’t wait till I’m done building and can switch gears to producing fruit, Veg, eggs, hay, meat, mostly in CSA boxes. Wife doing first year of flower subscription bouquets this year. ✌️
That's excellent.
Loving your creativity and ambition keep pushing, I'm watching with serious interest for a smaller family sized set up like you've got. Spray/dust the concrete with black pigment for your color before the final trowel your concrete. After you wait two weeks for curing Spray/microfiber mop (10 coats not kiding)of industrial uv resistant floor wax Zep makes a five gallon jug, add quartz dust/anti slip to your final two coats of wax for traction the concrete. Just suggestions for reducing costs and still having a great finish. I used this in my shop with amazing results for a huge savings vs epoxy.
Interesting. I thought pigment was added to concrete when poured, and it was ridiculously expensive. I found a product that is a garage floor paint/epoxy and was thinking that was the cheapest and best option. 🤷🏻♂️
@@ArkopiaUA-cam it can also be used after the concrete has been bull floated. The powder pigment can be hand thrown onto the concrete or you can use a leaf blower at slow speed to broadcast the pigment. If you hard trowel or use a rider trowel it will look slightly mottled. I added more pigment to my first 4 coats of wax and it gave it a consistent look when I was finished. It looked like black glass.
The Nebraska retired postal worker said his back wall was angled to reflect the sunlight but 25 years later his orange trees blocked that north wall so it doesn't get the sunlight.
Good thought. Maybe it’s best to have those solar things outside. It’ll be a jungle in here eventually likely.
@@ArkopiaUA-cam he also has grapes running up the ceiling from the north wall towards the South...
@@ArkopiaUA-cam and after he said that the water tanks on the North floor never get hit by Sun so they don't really get heated up that I thought it would be good to put the water tanks on the south wall at the bottom so all the runoff from the greenhouse goes right into the tank.
And since I raise fish I make it an open top deep channel filled with water plants and fish. Since the angle of the greenhouse comes down you can't really grow anything that close to the bottom anyway so that's where your thermal mass is on the South knee Wall. And of course the bigger the wider the deeper the water tank the better chance I'll be swimming in it especially if it has a current.
wow looks amazing
Expedience with demonstration installation at a fair even the reflected light on your back wall will be absorbed, probably better than the steel drums.
Sounds very doable. Of course you need to air test that pex before concrete. With that box of Styrofoam on the outside wall the earth should act as a heat sync.
Yup, gonna test lines all today and tomorrow here. Thanks buddy. ✌️
I wonder if the Canadian government has some kind of grants for deep winter greenhouse research. I think your design could change the way we build Commercial greenhouses in Canada.
We have received no grants for any aspect of anything we do. High efficient buildings, greenhouses, all working models, or even our zero food waste healthy food. 😂 I have a theory: it’s because it all works.😂
My understanding… optimal in floor heat is around 90F. Lower than DHW so those heat transfer tanks are handy. You might need a tempering valve. And likely a mechanism for limiting heat on evac tubes otherwise you have risk of having to dump the heat or blend in cold water
Thanks for the info brother. I'm planning to build a Passive greenhouse using Compressed Earth Blocks for
the walls. The plan is to insulate the exterior side of the wall with thick rigid foam EPS and then 3 coat stucco or cladding.
To create heat storage and distribution I'll create a partition walls using CEB.
The plan is to drill probably 2 holes or so through the side of the blocks and stack it to appropriate height.
I will run radiant heat tubing through the holes and connect it to a solar system. Not sure how well it would work???
I have never seen it done. I thought it could be an efficient and low cost way to heat the greenhouse on cold winter days.
To back it up, I'll have a rocket mass heater.
No experience with compressed earth blocks, but whatever it is insulate any thermal mass from the cold really well. 👍
Really amazing stuff. I"m local to stoon, do you give tours?
Thx for sharing.. nice job!
Are you worried about fumes from painting the concrete floors..
If you color the concrete it self.. might be more cost effective and less toxic fumes In the air.
My 2 cents..
Great ideas you have . Keep.it up🇨🇦
I’ll paint in the summer here when it’s well ventilated. The prices I received for colored concrete were insane. Still looking into it all quick here. 😂
@@ArkopiaUA-cam worth a look. Coloring the top 1 inch should be easy when finishing off your slab.. 2 bags of color , TOPS I figure..
Good seeing you at the grocery store today. Looks good. Let me know if you need any advice with hydronics. Im an HVAC/R plumber in the Stoon area. As for the glycol factor. As long as a the building never freezes, your lines wont freeze. But if you hit the 0 degree mark you may have issues. Pros and cons to what you are doing. Did you insulate the perimeter to maintain a frost break? Id chat with you more if you want to bounce ideas.
Good luck, looks great.
Second time ever being recognized from the UA-cam. Haha. Thanks for the tips and connection. It’s really well insulated around the perimeter so not too worried about using just water. Maybe it’s worth the glycol just in case though. That would really suck having the system burst somewhere. Thanks again. ✌️👊
for the cost of a pail of glycol, it would have you alot of potential headaches. a burst line is a costly nightmare.
If you did a solar evacuated drain back system you can keep it empty at night and summer after your demand for heat has been met
Thats a great idea. Thanks
Quiet in the back please... I'm trying to pay attention to this. 🙂👍
Love your idea but you are confusing thermal mass (heat storage) vs a radiant heat system either using a boiler or evacuated tube solar hot water. there is a calculation for how much thermal mass you need for your total glazing area (it is around 3 to 5 Litres per or something like that. I would keep those black barrels for actual thermal mass at the back of your greenhouse. But you could put the evacuated tube solar hot water using those panels on the roof.
I have designed by 20x24 ft greenhouse but I am using passive house walls and have reduced total glazing area so I only need 30, 200L/55gal rain barrels for thermal mass. I am also planning on using evacuated tube on the roof as a backup.
Considering the surface covered, do you have enough soil or are you using rolling beds on the concrete?
Pots, racks, trays, fish tanks, and even movable massive potted fruit trees on the concrete. 👍
Dude, instead of running those coils in a water tank, you might want to consider filling those tamks with sand...can store 932 degrees F and it doesn loose temp for months and months.. That way you are not possibly making a steam bomb
Interesting. 🙏✌️
Nice! How do you approach a task like tying 4000 zipties on? Put a podcast on?, music?, get into a meditative trance? just get on with it? Turn it into a game?
Podcast and audiobooks in the background. And zone out. 😂
@@ArkopiaUA-cam Makes sense!
My sisterinlaw has a roof mounted hot water tubed system, something not water runs to a heat exchanger
for domestic hot water Since hers is on the roof, and it doesnt get to -50 around here.....
If you have a specific question, I can ask her.
Thanks. If these things work as good as I’ve been recently told, might have to do a domestic hot water one too. 🙏
I'm curious are you planning on putting temp and RH sensors down there? I'm planning in building one of these and I may use something like an aroya or pinnaclecontrolsystems. To control everything
Also what's your thoughts on a rolling greenhouse cover for night time to roll down the poly to retain heat or possibly roll down on the inside of the poly behind the 2x6s. I know u did the 6mil plastic.
I should throw down some probes down there quickly here. Didn’t think about that, thanks. If I can figure out some roller blanket, I might do that in the future. I would have built it slightly different to have a blanket work easier. Bah, can’t think of everything. 😂
@@ArkopiaUA-cam it's an endless process, keep us updated for sure. ur living my dream man. Best of luck
@@ArkopiaUA-cam Endless Pools have a roller cover system for their pools, both powered and manual. Basically an aluminum tube that the pool cover is attached to. Either with a hand crank or a motor. The cover has ropes imbedded on the three edges. There is an aluminum track on either side of the pool that the ropes slide in. There is an aluminum bar on the end that has a groove in it for the third rope, so the cover is pulled evenly along the tracks. It is so strong, you can walk on it. You could do something similar with several shades in parallel across your GH.
So will you only grow plants in winter that need no pollinators? Thank you for your insights.
Hand pollinate. 👍
@@ArkopiaUA-cam Yes, that's how they get the Asian Pear, because they killed off all their pollinators.
@@ArkopiaUA-cam put a hive outside with an access hole to the inside.
Also many plants are self pollinating
sounds a bit wasteful a use for the tubes, in a way, but it'd be a smart use on the other hand.. .go for it if you get a good deal, I guess :>
Could also use generic black PVC pipes to line the wall if you get a good deal.
Ya, if I can find the solar collectors used. Lots of guys make pool heaters with just a ton of black poly pipe. Making their own solar heater. ✌️
Hold your horses - your concrete company can provide you with black concrete - no need to paint it, and since the concrete is black all the way through. A) it won't scrape off like paint does, and B) perhaps it will radiate heat into the pipes and ground better. If you are mixing it yourself you can buy additives that will color the concrete.
Just a a quote for die for all the concrete. $3500. And it probably won’t be jet black. My finisher said it’s way cheaper to do something after the pour. ✌️
@@ArkopiaUA-cam What the other person said about dusting your concrete with colored powder after it's poured but still toolable is a very common practice. Look up Davis colors. They make a wide selection of them. I had a stamped driveway done that way, but I also did a sunset rose patio slab with the concrete colored at the plant. The $3500 is the upcharge over the cost of the grey - wow.
bury your barrels, pump the water from the SETs.
I was wondering if a solar water heater and a pump pushing the water deep under the green house is a better idea. I understand water picks up and transfers heat better than air. My question is if you considered a deep layer of pipes instead of the pipes in slab? I know your idea is the slab is to be a heat generator, but what about the opposite? Dig up your garden, lay deeper pipes, and reinstall the soil so the slab feeds radiant heat below the crops. Your thoughts?
It all probably helps. If I had access to course gravel, I may have done the climate battery with air tubes. I'm sure heating the soil would work. If I do the solar collectors, maybe a dump line under the garden area would be a good idea. All of this is a ton of work. haha. Thanks for the thoughts
@@ArkopiaUA-cam I am planning a passive solar green house about 37'x 24', probably dug into the earth a few feet. I have a house in the Denver area, so while it doesn't get as cold as you get, I want it productive all year round. I am wanting tropical plants - such as citrus, guavas etc in addition to the veggies. I like the earth battery concept but wonder if solar heated water in 1 1/2" PVC flex pipes would be more efficient than blowing air underground. Air doesn't transfer heat as well as water. My experience is hot air doesn't like to go down, but water doesn't mind. With it warming up a lot of soil I hope it should stabilize the heat pretty well, much like a radiant heated floor.The ground temp here is 51 degrees, and maybe I am over thinking it?
@@gerretw the most important thing is figuring out your sun angles, and Insulation, Insulation, Insulation. Literally, anything you do after that is a bonus. The air pipe guys use the air to heat the earth, best would be rock. Water is the best heat transfer though, so I like water. Insulate it, make sure your sun angles are correct, and lots of mass inside. In Denver, you will be fine. ✌️
@@ArkopiaUA-cam Thanks - winter solstice is 27.5 degrees, summer is 74.5 My green house will be a shed off the rear of the house, so there's some insulation there, but since the north wall will extend above the plate to a finish height about 12-14', I plan on 2 x 10s with R-30
@@gerretw Great. Not hugely off my angles of 14 and 60 degrees. So essentially don’t go quite as deep, maybe a bit higher at the peak, or a bit of both. It’ll work good for your area. 👍✌️
Have you determined the number of solar days in your area? Theoretical solar energy available and your collector efficiency? You should have estimates based on experimental results and published data for your area before putting all that stuff in. Have fun with the closed loop/expansion tank/bleed valve system. They can be a big pain.
Off hand, I'd say all those barrels constitutes a solar mass far larger than the solar energy available. Hydronic heating radiators when I was designing specified a minimum of 140ºF to extract any heat at all. Optimum was 180ºF @ >2 gal/min. That was water to air. The conversion of water heat to concrete mass is much worse than copper/aluminum radiators. You WILL be running a circulation pump at least 12/7. What is the power input to the circulation pump? Will it handle the full flow load of the manifold?
No pump purchased yet. Will have to size it with the manifolds. One of the sunniest places in Canada where I am. 👍
@@ArkopiaUA-cam Got that from earlier episodes. Ambitious project, and smartly done on the passive part. I terminated bldg my solar water system as the actual total sunshine in my area was much lower than published data. (Unpredictable temp inversions from cloud cover) That aside, it was not possible to obtain sufficient energy with the entire south roof covered with collectors (700btu/h/sqft) to bring 1000 gals of storage up to usable temperature, 160º min., >454K btu/hr, 10 hrs of collection. Not much use in collecting if it takes more than a day to produce a day's worth of total heating. If you KNOW from experimental data you'll get enough, FB!
I might humbly suggest you use glycol everywhere, because one unforeseen failure could cause your whole system to crack, ruining all of your concrete and line and collectors. IMO it's not worth the risk.
no good in canada
It works.