Idk, is it certain that they've received those transmissions? RTs are not flawless and is not uncommon for messages not to reach the receiver. Also, since back then ATC's readings weren't so accurate, it may be that the pilots often received false warnings from ATC.
rode many miles aboard 707s, grand ladies of the skies. back when if you flew, the whole passenger cabin was "first class". extremely expensive if you weren't military.
Huh? Whole cabin first class? Maybe in the first few years, but the last time I was on one was in 1969 (Lufthansa) we had the six-row tourist class seating, but still had great meals.
@@billolsen4360 I don't think they meant the whole plane was first class. I think they meant it all of it FELT like first class. Before the sardine can bag o pretzels go **** yourself economy days of now.
Wow this brings back lots of memories I worked as an A&P mechanic for Southern Air Transport on burlington 707's. I was around 23 or 24 yrs old at the time flew several hundred hours and without much automation available then the cockpit could get very busy very quickly. Its so different now!
Being used to more modern aircraft, going back to the old school layout of the 707 cockpit makes me think of a B-52 on a bombing run. "Target in sight! Where the hell is Major Kong?"
I never thought about that before. It would not surprise me if there wasn't a lot of bleed over from the military side of Boeing in the design of the 707. The B52, and 707 were being developed around the same time with the B52 having a slight lead
The first sense to fail during moments of high stress is hearing. They were highly stressed with those kind of ceilings at 100’ and RVR at minimums. Thank goodness CRM and technology have vastly improved commercial flight nowadays!
@@57Jimmy imagine if it was a passenger airliner? because 2 pilots are not paying attention, i have no sympathy on this crash and i've watched all of Allec's videos
I work on 707's (military versions) and there are many still alive and well right now, although most people don't realize it. Our newest one is a '64. And our fleet has many years left. At least 20.
@@martinross5521 yes, that’s the interesting thing even though aviation investigations are supposedly highly detailed and methodical from my background in oil and gas industry I noticed actually they seem to stop we we would start LOL another word it’s pretty obvious that he failed to maintain height blah blah ignored etc etc but why ? was it training ? was it this ? was it that ?so thats why no recommendations because actually all you can say is what they observed which is not rocket science if you excuse the pun
@@malcolmwhite6588 I would always suggest that one of the pilots should constantly monitor the difference between radio and barometric altitude to ensure that they made sense. Assuming that they knew the height above sea level of the runway and the additional height of terrain. the second pilot could confirm safety from the barometric altitude. This simple check would have saved many lives over the years.
@@maurice7413 so what is this ageee or disagree? And I repeat, the flight engineer is not a pilot. He might have learned to fly the bird, but the clip clearly shows he's not acting as a pilot. His job is watching the systems, especially engines. So he's not involved in the aviation part, especially monitoring the glidescope
This one is a mystery. The 2 most basic steps in performing an ILS approach are: (1) Established on the Localizer and (2) Glideslope captured. Kinda the point of the ILS
Quite similar with a more recent Airbus crash. The final reports are also quite similar: they point out crew's failures and briefly touch on the fact that no terrain warning sounded in the cockpit. Ok, with the Airbus, the warning did sound, but after the impact... Idk, but from my perspective, this was a contributing factor for both crashes. Maybe if those warnings would have sounded in the cockpit, the pilots of both aircraft might have managed to avoid the crash, or at least limit the damage...
I would say with their very high work load at the time, they were ignorant to the fact that the instruments they were relying on were misleading them based on their own pre-conceived notions as to where they were. This is a very hard thing to realize once your brain convinces you of something. They were taught to trust their instruments (maybe even more than the controller) and probably thought the GPWS would bail them out if needed. Plus the CRM was probably slanted very much from Capt to FO which might explain why the FO didn't make the callouts. Sad.
Two urgent low altitude warnings from ATC and the captain does nothing? I don't get it. Pilot error crashes are usually baffling and caused by stupidity but this one ranks near the top.
I love your channel and watch all the other flight channels. What staggers me is that the vast majority of disasters are due to pilot error. Dreadful. 🤦😢😢🇬🇧
Meh, all the victims were Germans, so no real victims at all from an American viewpoint. Plus, the US rescue efforts were appalling, so nope, no video.
The ATC did not know the correct range to the aircraft......they seriously need to up their game with Radars, in my opinion they should have an air defence radar for accurate tracking and search as these can tell precise altitude, speed, range as well as displaying ground hazards. They would also have far less trouble dealing with Ground clutter, they would have far greater range and would be a useful asset to have for the countries defence. Aircraft should also have a Laser based proximity sensor for detecting the ground in addition to the GPWS
First of all the year was 1987 and the radar sites at most facilities have been updated. Second, no matter what radar they had, the pilots didn't acknowledge the low altitude warnings on 2 separate calls.
Easy to ask, were these guys stupid or what ? But as a training captain (now retired).. I can attest that highly competent, highly experienced crews are able sometimes to become fixated having missed an essential task or instrument indication and continued in a frame of mind that all is ok.. I wonder if fatigue played any part in this event.
THANK YOU ALLEC Peace & Enlyghtenment Alwayz Dezert-Owl from OHIO USA Author / Translator / Journalist Polymath / Professional Speaker / Available for Interviews
Perhaps the flight engineer was a professional engineer, and not actually a pilot. BN was a supplemental carrier mad may nit necessarily have a pilot in the third seat. Could make a difference.
This crew was obiously fatigued. Get good sleep, use standardized procedures and call-outs, and don't be afraid to speak-up and take away the airplane from a non-responsive Pilot Flying-- being nice and/or submissive will get everyone killed.
i hate to be callous but this was 1000% the pilot & FO fault. the tower told them to clear to 2400 and maintain 2400 and they DID NOT. i don't feel bad at all about this crash.
Also. The Flight Engineer SHOULD have been Monitoring the Approach and Not his panel nor the engine instrumentation. Especially when the crew were flying an ILS down to minima in poor visibility conditions. A Third pair of eyes from behind would likely have spotted the Captain’s mistakes and alerted him to them, as the First Officer had failed to do so. The crew’s poor CRM, the Captain’s failure to level off after intercepting the ILS Localiser had all culminated in putting the aircraft in an extremely dangerous position relative to the terrain. Neither Pilot seemed to be aware of the aircraft’s position relative to the Glide Slope, nor the correct altitude for that particular phase of the Instrument Approach. A totally avoidable accident brought about by poor situational awareness, poor X-Cockpit Standard “Call-outs”, Altimetry discipline and the failure of the First Officer to call for a “GO AROUND”, and/or the Captain’s failure to Initiate a “Go Around” once Situational Awareness was lost! “Push it up” is NOT a Standard Call and besides, the Go-Around was initiated far too late to avoid disaster. I’m not sure of the exact ILS Approach at the time, however many ILS Approaches CANNOT be conducted Without DME in CAT I or below conditions. I’m also assuming that this particular Boeing 707-300C was not equipped with, nor approved for, CAT II and CAT IIIA ILS Approaches.
Perhaps the flight engineer was a professional enguneer, and not actually a pilot. BN is a supplemental carrier and may not have put a pilot in the third seat.
@@allenmurray7893 Flight Engineers are not always Pilots. Not sure about the US though. They weren’t in the U.K. that’s for certain. Only a very few ever actually became Pilots. If he wasn’t actually a qualified and Boeing 707 Rated F/E, then the flight may have been illegal. Flight Engineers always had to monitor the take off, climb and approach phases of the flight. They certainly know about ILS Approaches and Altimetry. As I said, a third pair of eyes could have picked up the disastrous errors that the crew were making. He could’ve alerted the Pilots of their mistakes and they would have landed safely or, executed a “Go Around” and diverted to their Alternate Airfield if they failed to see the approach lights or the runway. Either way, all on board would have lived, instead of drilling themselves into a hillside……and an early grave!
You know the situation is dire when the *controller* gives you altitude warnings. I'm not a pilot nor an ATC, but I've studied thousands of aviation accidents, and it seems to me that action is very rare.
Two low altitude warnings from the tower ignored with no response was the last straw. Very sad. Thank you Allec
Talking about tunnel vision, that's 'em.
It’s “TOO” Low…..
Idk, is it certain that they've received those transmissions?
RTs are not flawless and is not uncommon for messages not to reach the receiver.
Also, since back then ATC's readings weren't so accurate, it may be that the pilots often received false warnings from ATC.
I wonder if the passenger did anything wrong?
All of the passengers effed up when they got on a Burlington Air Express flight. But they did save some money on airfares.@@sbgroen
rode many miles aboard 707s, grand ladies of the skies. back when if you flew, the whole passenger cabin was "first class". extremely expensive if you weren't military.
Huh? Whole cabin first class? Maybe in the first few years, but the last time I was on one was in 1969 (Lufthansa) we had the six-row tourist class seating, but still had great meals.
@@billolsen4360 I don't think they meant the whole plane was first class. I think they meant it all of it FELT like first class. Before the sardine can bag o pretzels go **** yourself economy days of now.
Wow this brings back lots of memories I worked as an A&P mechanic for Southern Air Transport on burlington 707's. I was around 23 or 24 yrs old at the time flew several hundred hours and without much automation available then the cockpit could get very busy very quickly. Its so different now!
Being used to more modern aircraft, going back to the old school layout of the 707 cockpit makes me think of a B-52 on a bombing run.
"Target in sight! Where the hell is Major Kong?"
I never thought about that before.
It would not surprise me if there wasn't a lot of bleed over from the military side of Boeing in the design of the 707. The B52, and 707 were being developed around the same time with the B52 having a slight lead
ah Doctor Strangelove! Gotta watch it again. More relevant today, right?
The warning from the ATC should have been sufficient for them to realize that they were too low.
The first sense to fail during moments of high stress is hearing. They were highly stressed with those kind of ceilings at 100’ and RVR at minimums.
Thank goodness CRM and technology have vastly improved commercial flight nowadays!
@@57Jimmy imagine if it was a passenger airliner? because 2 pilots are not paying attention, i have no sympathy on this crash and i've watched all of Allec's videos
That plane was huge!
I used to work in San Diego with BAX, great group of people to work with... how sad...😢
I work on 707's (military versions) and there are many still alive and well right now, although most people don't realize it. Our newest one is a '64. And our fleet has many years left. At least 20.
I’ve never seen an Alec video where it says, “NO RECOMMENDATIONS WERE MADE AFTER THE ACCIDENT”… 😢
Agreed - I could think of quite a few recommendations and I’m not even qualified.
Here’s a recommendation, pilots should ALWAYS listen to the tower.
Maybe they thought "You can't fix stupid ".
@@martinross5521 yes, that’s the interesting thing even though aviation investigations are supposedly highly detailed and methodical from my background in oil and gas industry I noticed actually they seem to stop we we would start LOL another word it’s pretty obvious that he failed to maintain height blah blah ignored etc etc but why ? was it training ? was it this ? was it that ?so thats why no recommendations because actually all you can say is what they observed which is not rocket science if you excuse the pun
@@malcolmwhite6588 I would always suggest that one of the pilots should constantly monitor the difference between radio and barometric altitude to ensure that they made sense. Assuming that they knew the height above sea level of the runway and the additional height of terrain. the second pilot could confirm safety from the barometric altitude. This simple check would have saved many lives over the years.
Three pilots and none of them noticed that the plane was below the glideslope. Very difficult to comprehend.
2 pilots. Check 7:20 - 7:30
@@Dilley_G45 3 pilots, check :20 and within your times it says pilot, first officer, and flight engineer.
@@maurice7413 so what is this ageee or disagree? And I repeat, the flight engineer is not a pilot. He might have learned to fly the bird, but the clip clearly shows he's not acting as a pilot. His job is watching the systems, especially engines. So he's not involved in the aviation part, especially monitoring the glidescope
@@Dilley_G45 The video says "3 pilots and 1 passenger" argue with that, not me.
@@maurice7413 I don't argue with you about the content. But we all know it's not 3 pilots. Don't blame me for pointing out what's wrong.
Three people in the cockpit and no one is listening to the control tower???
I guess they were focusing on the "aviate"
@@bullseyes1983 Aviated straight into a CFIT
@@Geoff69420 they CFITed with fundamentals
@@bullseyes1983 And not checking raw data to confirm the flight director is valid is some piss-poor aviating.
Why do they think the pilots did not respond to Tower?
fatigue
Probably too focused on what they were doing
Ugh we do have mountains on or near approach and in these area’s we suggest that you do not drop below 1500’ until you have visual of ILS.
This one is a mystery. The 2 most basic steps in performing an ILS approach are: (1) Established on the Localizer and (2) Glideslope captured. Kinda the point of the ILS
Quite similar with a more recent Airbus crash. The final reports are also quite similar: they point out crew's failures and briefly touch on the fact that no terrain warning sounded in the cockpit.
Ok, with the Airbus, the warning did sound, but after the impact...
Idk, but from my perspective, this was a contributing factor for both crashes. Maybe if those warnings would have sounded in the cockpit, the pilots of both aircraft might have managed to avoid the crash, or at least limit the damage...
I think so
Absolutely. They didn't want to listen to the ATC but the plane saying "PULL UP......PULL UP" should have woke them up.
Similar to Crossair 3597. Unbelievably stupid flying not to heed the controller's warning.
I would say with their very high work load at the time, they were ignorant to the fact that the instruments they were relying on were misleading them based on their own pre-conceived notions as to where they were. This is a very hard thing to realize once your brain convinces you of something. They were taught to trust their instruments (maybe even more than the controller) and probably thought the GPWS would bail them out if needed. Plus the CRM was probably slanted very much from Capt to FO which might explain why the FO didn't make the callouts. Sad.
So sad this would happen on such a short flight (the two cities are about 200 miles apart) Looks like a lot of errors and non-responses here.
Seems like this one is an example of not enough experience to be able to handle multiple things at once. RIP
And that boys and girls is why modern planes have EGPWS.
Two urgent low altitude warnings from ATC and the captain does nothing? I don't get it. Pilot error crashes are usually baffling and caused by stupidity but this one ranks near the top.
I love your channel and watch all the other flight channels. What staggers me is that the vast majority of disasters are due to pilot error. Dreadful.
🤦😢😢🇬🇧
The airline was also a railroad.
When I first read the title I thought it read Deadly BEEF instead of Deadly BELIEF
That's how Biden would have read it.
@@keith3970Biden was flying the plane😂😂. 10%for the big guy.
@@trent3872😂😂😂
Hy Allec, could you make the Ramstein Air Show disaster ?
Meh, all the victims were Germans, so no real victims at all from an American viewpoint. Plus, the US rescue efforts were appalling, so nope, no video.
At least the one passenger had plenty of room in the cabin for his final flight.
No recommendations??? How about Burlington Air Express audit the training of all their pilots ???
No recommendations made? How about, “uhm, we recommend that you don’t fly below the glideslope.”
The crew info was skipped
The ATC did not know the correct range to the aircraft......they seriously need to up their game with Radars, in my opinion they should have an air defence radar for accurate tracking and search as these can tell precise altitude, speed, range as well as displaying ground hazards. They would also have far less trouble dealing with Ground clutter, they would have far greater range and would be a useful asset to have for the countries defence. Aircraft should also have a Laser based proximity sensor for detecting the ground in addition to the GPWS
First of all the year was 1987 and the radar sites at most facilities have been updated. Second, no matter what radar they had, the pilots didn't acknowledge the low altitude warnings on 2 separate calls.
It's important to ask, "What's wrong with this picture?"
what kinda game is that
Jesus!!! Was anyone in the cockpit not stoned???
Why are you asking Our Lord that question
@@mph1ish Because he should know.
@@mph1ish lol "our lord" 🤦♂
707-351C..A former Northwest aircraft. Just an FYI that you probably new already...
Easy to ask, were these guys stupid or what ? But as a training captain (now retired).. I can attest that highly competent, highly experienced crews are able sometimes to become fixated having missed an essential task or instrument indication and continued in a frame of mind that all is ok.. I wonder if fatigue played any part in this event.
THANK YOU ALLEC
Peace & Enlyghtenment Alwayz
Dezert-Owl from OHIO USA
Author / Translator / Journalist
Polymath / Professional Speaker / Available for Interviews
in 1987, KMCI had NO DME???? WOW....
Was the aircraft repaired and returned to service?
Yes, but it was renamed. It is now Air Force One.
Do pilgrim airlines flight 458
I was on that flight and we had no problem. I will make a YT video soon to show you what really happened. It will be shocking.
Deadly Belief | Burlington Air Express Flight 721
Deadly Belief | Burlington Air Express Flight 721
Buffalo Airways flying in BAX colors.
Yep Burlington Air Express was also a railroad
Perhaps the flight engineer was a professional engineer, and not actually a pilot. BN was a supplemental carrier mad may nit necessarily have a pilot in the third seat. Could make a difference.
This crew was obiously fatigued. Get good sleep, use standardized procedures and call-outs, and don't be afraid to speak-up and take away the airplane from a non-responsive Pilot Flying-- being nice and/or submissive will get everyone killed.
Fatigue was my first thought as well.
Bro Summon Railfan and avgeek
i hate to be callous but this was 1000% the pilot & FO fault. the tower told them to clear to 2400 and maintain 2400 and they DID NOT. i don't feel bad at all about this crash.
Is this a new trend to not narrate the video?
can you make bek air 2100 because you dont have this video
and this bad
Sad Comprehensive video- unnecessary loss of life.
Fundamental failures.
Also. The Flight Engineer SHOULD have been Monitoring the Approach and Not his panel nor the engine instrumentation. Especially when the crew were flying an ILS down to minima in poor visibility conditions. A Third pair of eyes from behind would likely have spotted the Captain’s mistakes and alerted him to them, as the First Officer had failed to do so. The crew’s poor CRM, the Captain’s failure to level off after intercepting the ILS Localiser had all culminated in putting the aircraft in an extremely dangerous position relative to the terrain. Neither Pilot seemed to be aware of the aircraft’s position relative to the Glide Slope, nor the correct altitude for that particular phase of the Instrument Approach. A totally avoidable accident brought about by poor situational awareness, poor X-Cockpit Standard “Call-outs”, Altimetry discipline and the failure of the First Officer to call for a “GO AROUND”, and/or the Captain’s failure to Initiate a “Go Around” once Situational Awareness was lost! “Push it up” is NOT a Standard Call and besides, the Go-Around was initiated far too late to avoid disaster. I’m not sure of the exact ILS Approach at the time, however many ILS Approaches CANNOT be conducted Without DME in CAT I or below conditions. I’m also assuming that this particular Boeing 707-300C was not equipped with, nor approved for, CAT II and CAT IIIA ILS Approaches.
Perhaps the flight engineer was a professional enguneer, and not actually a pilot. BN is a supplemental carrier and may not have put a pilot in the third seat.
@@allenmurray7893 Flight Engineers are not always Pilots. Not sure about the US though. They weren’t in the U.K. that’s for certain. Only a very few ever actually became Pilots. If he wasn’t actually a qualified and Boeing 707 Rated F/E, then the flight may have been illegal. Flight Engineers always had to monitor the take off, climb and approach phases of the flight. They certainly know about ILS Approaches and Altimetry. As I said, a third pair of eyes could have picked up the disastrous errors that the crew were making. He could’ve alerted the Pilots of their mistakes and they would have landed safely or, executed a “Go Around” and diverted to their Alternate Airfield if they failed to see the approach lights or the runway. Either way, all on board would have lived, instead of drilling themselves into a hillside……and an early grave!
You know the situation is dire when the *controller* gives you altitude warnings.
I'm not a pilot nor an ATC, but I've studied thousands of aviation accidents, and it seems to me that action is very rare.