Hi Terry, Thanks for this video. The information in it is spot on.I am looking forward to the next one very much. It is a shame that other users here on youtube and on woodwork forums are trying to misrepresent your explanation as to why HNT Gordon does not make bevel-up planes to justify their own personal preferences - surprisingly for both bevel-up and bevel-down planes depending on which side of the fence they sit. Please do not let their narrow minds and large egos discourage you from your works.
Fascinating stuff but Terry is examining the worst-case scenario for BU planes. Most folk will I suspect - in Europe at least - use a bevel angle of 38 degrees or even 35 degrees for planing local timbers. 50 degrees would be reserved for small areas of problematic wood. So the issue isn't quite as bad as he suggests. But there's no doubt a BU blade wears quicker but IMHO a sharp BU blade outperforms a sharp BD blade and there's no cap iron to mess about with.
Hi Philly, Please be aware I have nothing against BU planes , we have used this concept in our planes to make a BD smoother into a BU cabinet scraper since we started making planes in 1995. The issue I am trying to make woodworkers aware of is the problems associated with using LA BU planes that have a 12 degree bed (ie. 12 degrees of clearance) for smoothing flat surfaces. The less clearance angle you have the sooner your plane will not want to cut the long grain of wood. No clearance = no cut, unless of course you want to use brute force, which many people try to do which creates many other issues with the quality of surface finish and increasing the chance of tear out. The exception to this is cutting soft wood end grain, which is what these LA BU planes were designed to do, and they are undoubtedly the best design for planing soft wood end grain. This is because soft wood end grain (under a micro scope) is not flat - it has troughs and peaks so the loss of clearance or the wear bevel is not continually riding on the surface of the wood like in the case of planning long grain. Consequently you can keep planning softwood end grain until the blade is actually blunt. In contrast to planing long grain, once your wear bevel is large enough to lose clearance, you will assess that the blade is blunt, where as in fact the blade is still very much sharp enough to cut wood , but the LA BU design is stopping it from cutting due to loss of clearance. As far as the bevel angle goes, a woodworker in the US - Steve Elliot, proved beyond doubt that a 31 degree bevel is the optimum angle to get maximum life out of your blade (before re sharpening) for planning cherry. If you take a look at his site he proves this beyond doubt. For other types of wood that angle may vary slightly one way or another. But with full confidence I can say this - if I am planing cherry, every degree I make my blade bevel greater than 31 degrees, regardless of whether it is BU or BD, I will get less meters/feet of shavings before I have to resharpen. If you sharpen your blade at 50 degrees you will have two thirds less usable sharp edge as per the card board cut outs. If you are planing long grain and the wood is hard and cranky, using a LA BU plane with the bevel sharpened at 50 degrees you have selected the worst geometry possible to get good results on this type of wood. I hope that helps with a better understanding of Blade Geometry. Unfortunately, talking about clearance angle doesn't suit some people, despite the fact that clearance angle in any blade geometry equation is the most critical. I hope that helps.
Hi, thank you for this good information! Wouldn't be the solution to make a BU but without the common low beding angle? That would leave you with the possability of playing with the cutting angle by changing the sharpening angle. Rising the beding angle means rising the clearence angle by keeping low the sharpening angle wich gives you more wearing material as you nicely explaned?
Hi Oli Thanks for your comments and glad to see you have thought about it. Raising the bed angle in a BU planes would certainly make sense to me if you are going to use this type of plane to do the work of a bench plane eg planning large flat surfaces. The more clearance you start with the longer you will be able to plane before loss of clearance will effect how well the plane will cut the wood. If we were to make a BU bench plane we would use a minimum of 20 degree bed. Regards Terry
Hello, with a blade sharpened at about 30 degrees, a BU plane is good on softwood end grain which is what they were originally designed for. As far as the lower wear bevel effecting the clearance angle you would have to do some experimenting, as this will depend on the wood you are using, the blade steel, and how well you sharpen it.Hope that helps. Happy woodworking. Regards Terry
Hi Terry, can you point me to one of your videos or make one that demonstrates planing hardwood end-grain with one of you planes angled at 55/60degrees? I struggle to get a clean finish on Tassie Oak endgrain with a finely set Stanley #4 sharpened at 8000grit... I can't imagine a 55 or 60 degree bevel would be any easier?
Hi Trevor, I don't think there is a video posted showing planning hardwood end grain. However, I certainly have done it and it is best done using a shooting board. Let me know what thickness tasy oak end grain you are trying to plane and I will see what I can come up with. Also were you using a shooting board?REgards Terry
Jesse Cole what the fuck is wrong with you yanks, you always treat a serious genuine comment as something to insult, may be because of your stupidity and ignorance.
@Jesse Cole: "Blydes" and "plynes", sound more like the South African accent, rather than true Aussie. Australians would instead, pronounce it "fukkiin droog blade" and/or "dumb kunt plane" (note: the extra words are inherent to the pronunciation - it's not an insult). Terry Gordon in this video, has to control/adjust his native accent/language, because he doesn't want the risk, of the video 'coming across' the wrong way, for a global woodworking community. If you want to hear fair dinkum bloody Aussie accent, in it's natural environment, feel free to watch any "Dash Cam Owners Australia" videos for genuine examples. I swear, everyone in those videos are good mates! David B, is just speaking normal Aussie slang and totally not abusive in any way. He's clearly Aussie and pointing out you've mistaken us for pathetic cricket players from another continent, you dumb ####!
Fantastic Info! thanks for putting this up!
Hi Terry,
Thanks for this video. The information in it is spot on.I am looking forward to the next one very much.
It is a shame that other users here on youtube and on woodwork forums are trying to misrepresent your explanation as to why HNT Gordon does not make bevel-up planes to justify their own personal preferences - surprisingly for both bevel-up and bevel-down planes depending on which side of the fence they sit.
Please do not let their narrow minds and large egos discourage you from your works.
Hi, the next one isn't far away and will further explain where we are coming from. Thanks for your support. Regards Terry
Very informative & interesting.
From a Norwegian woodworker.
Thanks for the feedback :)
Great video; very informative and thank you. Now to start watching "Part 2".
Thanks Darth, great to hear you enjoyed it.
Really interesting stuff, thanks for that Terry.
No problem, Regards Terry
The example angles are extreme, not typical, setups.
Brilliant
Very informative, cheers
Thanks Tony. Regards Terry
Fascinating stuff but Terry is examining the worst-case scenario for BU planes. Most folk will I suspect - in Europe at least - use a bevel angle of 38 degrees or even 35 degrees for planing local timbers. 50 degrees would be reserved for small areas of problematic wood. So the issue isn't quite as bad as he suggests. But there's no doubt a BU blade wears quicker but IMHO a sharp BU blade outperforms a sharp BD blade and there's no cap iron to mess about with.
Hi Philly,
Please be aware I have nothing against BU planes , we have used this concept in our planes to make a BD smoother into a BU cabinet scraper since we started making planes in 1995. The issue I am trying to make woodworkers aware of is the problems associated with using LA BU planes that have a 12 degree bed (ie. 12 degrees of clearance) for smoothing flat surfaces. The less clearance angle you have the sooner your plane will not want to cut the long grain of wood. No clearance = no cut, unless of course you want to use brute force, which many people try to do which creates many other issues with the quality of surface finish and increasing the chance of tear out. The exception to this is cutting soft wood end grain, which is what these LA BU planes were designed to do, and they are undoubtedly the best design for planing soft wood end grain. This is because soft wood end grain (under a micro scope) is not flat - it has troughs and peaks so the loss of clearance or the wear bevel is not continually riding on the surface of the wood like in the case of planning long grain. Consequently you can keep planning softwood end grain until the blade is actually blunt. In contrast to planing long grain, once your wear bevel is large enough to lose clearance, you will assess that the blade is blunt, where as in fact the blade is still very much sharp enough to cut wood , but the LA BU design is stopping it from cutting due to loss of clearance.
As far as the bevel angle goes, a woodworker in the US - Steve Elliot, proved beyond doubt that a 31 degree bevel is the optimum angle to get maximum life out of your blade (before re sharpening) for planning cherry. If you take a look at his site he proves this beyond doubt. For other types of wood that angle may vary slightly one way or another. But with full confidence I can say this - if I am planing cherry, every degree I make my blade bevel greater than 31 degrees, regardless of whether it is BU or BD, I will get less meters/feet of shavings before I have to resharpen. If you sharpen your blade at 50 degrees you will have two thirds less usable sharp edge as per the card board cut outs.
If you are planing long grain and the wood is hard and cranky, using a LA BU plane with the bevel sharpened at 50 degrees you have selected the worst geometry possible to get good results on this type of wood.
I hope that helps with a better understanding of Blade Geometry. Unfortunately, talking about clearance angle doesn't suit some people, despite the fact that clearance angle in any blade geometry equation is the most critical.
I hope that helps.
Hi, thank you for this good information!
Wouldn't be the solution to make a BU but without the common low beding angle?
That would leave you with the possability of playing with the cutting angle by changing the sharpening angle. Rising the beding angle means rising the clearence angle by keeping low the sharpening angle wich gives you more wearing material as you nicely explaned?
Hi Oli Thanks for your comments and glad to see you have thought about it. Raising the bed angle in a BU planes would certainly make sense to me if you are going to use this type of plane to do the work of a bench plane eg planning large flat surfaces. The more clearance you start with the longer you will be able to plane before loss of clearance will effect how well the plane will cut the wood. If we were to make a BU bench plane we would use a minimum of 20 degree bed. Regards Terry
So do bevel-up planes have any advantages?
Hello, with a blade sharpened at about 30 degrees, a BU plane is good on softwood end grain which is what they were originally designed for. As far as the lower wear bevel effecting the clearance angle you would have to do some experimenting, as this will depend on the wood you are using, the blade steel, and how well you sharpen it.Hope that helps. Happy woodworking. Regards Terry
Hi Terry, can you point me to one of your videos or make one that demonstrates planing hardwood end-grain with one of you planes angled at 55/60degrees?
I struggle to get a clean finish on Tassie Oak endgrain with a finely set Stanley #4 sharpened at 8000grit... I can't imagine a 55 or 60 degree bevel would be any easier?
Hi Trevor, I don't think there is a video posted showing planning hardwood end grain. However, I certainly have done it and it is best done using a shooting board. Let me know what thickness tasy oak end grain you are trying to plane and I will see what I can come up with. Also were you using a shooting board?REgards Terry
thank you very much for response, and can you please say why HNT Gordon shoulder planes have brass bottom, not steel, like Norris plane did?
and why your block planes and molding planes don't have a metal sole?
Lol Australians. They always use blydes in their plynes.
Jesse Cole what the fuck is wrong with you yanks, you always treat a serious genuine comment as something to insult, may be because of your stupidity and ignorance.
@Jesse Cole: "Blydes" and "plynes", sound more like the South African accent, rather than true Aussie. Australians would instead, pronounce it "fukkiin droog blade" and/or "dumb kunt plane" (note: the extra words are inherent to the pronunciation - it's not an insult). Terry Gordon in this video, has to control/adjust his native accent/language, because he doesn't want the risk, of the video 'coming across' the wrong way, for a global woodworking community. If you want to hear fair dinkum bloody Aussie accent, in it's natural environment, feel free to watch any "Dash Cam Owners Australia" videos for genuine examples. I swear, everyone in those videos are good mates!
David B, is just speaking normal Aussie slang and totally not abusive in any way. He's clearly Aussie and pointing out you've mistaken us for pathetic cricket players from another continent, you dumb ####!