Thoughts After Visiting a United Methodist Church
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- Опубліковано 1 жов 2024
- Thanks to Wesley Monument United Methodist Church and Pastor Benjamin Martin for hosting me!
If you'd like to check out my daily ten-minute Bible podcast, you can do so here: www.thetmbh.co...
I have been looking for a Christian faith, for a church, and the Methodist theology just seems composed of so much love and wisdom. They got me and I love that I found my home.
Me too
Consider Orthodoxy!
“If all experienced God in the same way and returned Him an identical worship, the song of the church triumphant would have no symphony; it would be like an orchestra in which all the instruments played the same note.” -C. S. Lewis
😘
Amen
I’m a Catholic Christian and love Christian unity , ecumenical dialogue is fantastic
Snap!
Romans 8:2
King James Version
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Anglo-Catholic here. Same.
As an Orthodox I would say Ecumenical dialogue is oftentimes pretty dangerous.
@@joeyfromchurch1760 I'm sure it can get out of hand, but I prefer peaceful relations over hostility. I forgot where I've read it, but one big church without denominations/sects is anti-Biblical.
Matt as one ordained in the Free Methodist church, I just want to let you know how much I appreciate the posture of your heart in all of this. I do feel like a kindred spirit with you, and have done my best to emphasize the areas of commonality and agreement as I've had opportunities to pastor in towns with a number of different "flavors" of Christianity. When teaching in church, or when instructing those who are actively pursuing the idea of becoming a pastor, I've always been sure to teach the difference between 3 basic levels of belief/understanding - dogma, doctrine, and distinctives. I hear you speaking toward a similar idea regarding orders of beliefs, and I really appreciate that. Keep up the good work.
I was raised United Methodist. I love them, I maintain a deep, deep respect for John and Charles Wesley. I love that Methodists do see salvation as a process, that there is at least a concept of what I would now call "Theosis" as in many ways I think that prepared me to understand and accept that truth coming into Antiochian Orthodoxy. I'm actually part of Fr. Paul's congregation in SLC.
When I left Methodism behind it had nothing to do with the people, it had nothing to do with Methodism's historical teaching. God was leading me theologically and morally in a more conservative and more traditional direction and, at least the strain of Methodism that I was part of growing up, was going the other way.
I get it. A true person of Christ must be ready to answer at any time and place. Thank you for the series. I like Protestantism because the tent is so broad (by and large). I grew up in the Christian (Disciples of Christ) Church. But have been drawn to different denominations through my 70 years. Bottom line: we are saved by Grace, and we love the Lord our God with all our hearts and minds and our neighbors as ourselves.
Amen.
Interesting. I kind of think of the hundreds of Protestant denominations is kind of a turn-off for me towards Protestantism, and was one the reasons that pointed me towards going into one of the Ancient Christian Churches(Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, etc.). God bless.
@@vaseman3639 it is interesting. I can appreciate that point of view, too. It is why some Protestants grow to prefer the formalities of the ancients. Rather like humanity itself.
@@vaseman3639 Imagine if Jesus invited us out for ice cream. We'll each order different flavours, yet the unifying factor is not the flavour of our ice cream we choose, but the fact we're eating it together with Him.
@@PhilipWorthington this seems like a good approach, until we ask what constitutes as the ice cream. What parts of the Faith are essential to Christianity, and which have room for differences? Infant Baptism? Baptismal Regeneration? Symbolic vs Real Presence in Holy Communion? Some may say these are not dogmas, and others do. Who is right? As there is “one Lord, one faith, one baptism” (Ephesians 4:5, RSV) there is one Church which Christ established. God bless.
Hi Matt, I would enjoy a video about you visiting your own church and telling us the doctrines/beflies you teach and believe there
Agreed!
Search for his video about the "Evangelical Free" church.
Ephesians 5 talks about this struggle between love and morality. Liberal churches tend to over emphasize the love aspect and ignore the morality aspect of living like Christ. Some conservative church’s over emphasize the morality aspect and throw out the love aspect. If we really want to live like Christ, we need both.
Yeah, part of the issue with "love" is we usually get that wrong.
For instance, which is more loving: To let a man continue walking down the railroad tracks towards an oncoming train while you tell him how much you love him and how accepting you are of his path, or to tell him the truth that the path he is on will lead to death?
"Greater love hath no man than that he would lay his life down for his friends" - sometimes that means sacrificing a relationship because you love them too much to approve of their sin.
According to holy scriptures
The LORD, his bow is a river
HABAKKUK 3:9
@@michaelart4878 amazing insight. Grace is a river, not pride eh?
@@matthayes533
In Jesus name. Greetings with a holy kiss,from east of two rivers,the Bow and the Elbow. Both of which Abba Father God alone has bent.
The LORD said,
"MICHAEL,CARVE DEEP THE WORDS I HAVE YOU SEE UPON THE DEAD AN FALLEN TREES. BRIGHTEN MINE ARROWS WITH PRIMARY COLOURS OF CONCERN."
My only answer to this,
"Ya way,Lord"
The blessedness of forsaking all,and casting thy crown at the foot of his throne.
TO GOD BE ALL THE GLORY
@@matthayes533
Mine Lord,God and Saviour,mine Master,mine Commander, he is altogether lovely and worthy of all praise and worship.
Alleluia 🙌
Hi Matt! I just found your channel today through another one of your videos, but clicked on your UMC videos because I attend a UMC church. I was raised non-denominational (essentially S. Baptist), and did not expect to find a home at our local UMC church, but I certainly did. I love how you summed this up. I also love how a person with maybe just a slightly different view of salvation is completely welcome in the UMC church, as long as Jesus, the resurrection, and grace are the center of ones belief. None of the people in my Sunday School class were Methodist as children, but as adults, we have all found the UMC church to be where God has called us. You rightly mentioned the pending split. Please keep the church in your prayers. Looking forward to watching more of your videos and using them with my children as we do our Bible studies!
❤
I believe I commented similarly on the last video, but here goes it again. The UMC, like the pastor mentioned, has many different beliefs under one tent which is the problem with the modern Methodist Church. There is no longer a standard... almost no shared foundation. Some UMC churches preach the inerrant Word of God while other treat the Bible like the Pirates of the Caribbean treat their rule book - just nice guidelines. Without a shared doctrine, a church can not stand united, which is why the UMC is running high speed into a multifaceted split that could possibly happen wide scale as soon as next month (July '22).
The UMC is a messy conglomerate. Many churches are incredibly formal; many are extremely relaxed and contemporary; many are straight up concert events; many are essentially Baptist churches filled with former Baptists that wanted to have a little more fun in public.
Now, you need to find a representative for the newly found Global Methodist Church as well as the other Methodist denominations such as the Free Methodist and the Bible Methodists.
That's why I've never understand there theology!
@@irishman5562 our theology is supposed to be Wesleyan Arminianism
I always appreciate how humble Matt is. He's open about his overall theological framework for the most part, but he never seems to act like he's better or has everything neatly figured out.
Retired United Methodist pastor here. John and Chares Wesley were the denominations forbearers in England, although both remained Anglican priests to their deaths. I however was raised Baptist and became United Methodist by marriage and then 20 years later became an ordained elder in the United Methodist Church. Churches have way more in common than they differ on. We United Methodist have a line we use when someone joins the church, "The Church is of God and will be preserved until that end of time." Christ bridges many denominations.
As you touched on, there is such a wide spread of "Methodist" right now. the split in the denomination has been... less than well handled. Thank you for your videos as always, your goal for Christian Unity is one of my favorite signals of your character, constantly in pursuit of the holy universal church
and covid delaying general conference hasn't helped
@@philnaegely sorta, theres also a movement of people who wanted it delayed to 24 so that new delegates would be elected and the progressive arm would be more powerful since large groups of traditionals have already left. Its become politics looking for excuses to accomplish what they'd like
@@tbjpersonal others wanted it delayed due to covid-19 and didn't want to do it virtual due to logistics
@@philnaegely true, I forgot about the visa speedbumps with those coming from abroad, please forgive my broad brush
@@tbjpersonal all good, may progressive individuals i know and follow said we couldn't afford to be delayed another year to make decisions etc.
Our UMC church, that I belong too, would fall on the extreme conservative side of congregations. I feel like the local UMC churches I have visited would all follow on that line. The fracturing between the church is kind of a (unfortunately) protestant mainstay. Feels like every time we get something we break off. I personally would consider myself either a Catholic or an Anglican, but probably leaning more anglican, but my community doesn't have an anglican church (not one for 2-3 hours drive)
On a separate note, Wesley never actually created a new church, he always advocated for staying within the Anglican church, but the methodist movement was more of a subsect of the Anglican church. I think Asbury would be considered to be the father of Methodism as a whole. I may be wrong on some of the specifics, but that seems to be the feeling I have from some methodist theologians.
Become Catholic. The Church like all churches is currently a mess, it's not a matter of offering convenience or even stability, it's just an issue of formal commitment to orthodoxy
I am UMC. The American Methodist church is overwhelmingly liberal, apart from the Deep South and rural areas. It's the international churches, particularly in Africa, that are conservative. That's why the proposed conservative offshoot is called the Global MC. I am extremely divided on which side to take. I am very conservative theologically but much more moderate to progressive in living that out and expressing grace and justice to the culture. I am terrified that the GMC will eventually make POLITICAL conservatism an unwritten requirement for membership, whether implicitly or explicitly. I absolutely detest that instinct in the American church.
Former UMC now Catholic. Check out a local rcia class it's for learning it's not a commitment
@@justd4734 My wife is a former Catholic, now UMC. I have extensive background in studying and teaching about Catholicism in our denominational comparison classes (with Catholics present to keep me real) and I've read Alan Schreck, David Currie, and lots of Peter Kreeft. I could possibly see myself as protestant-leaning Anglican in a different universe. But I doubt I could ever go full Catholic. The Marian doctrines are just a bridge way too far for me.
@@jsharp3165 Honest question: At this point in both political and church history, how can Bible-believing Americans vote for the democrat/liberal platform?
I don't believe it will necessarily be a "requirement" to vote republican, but so many of the broad democrat beliefs go against the Bible. Once upon a time, you could sit to the left of moderate and still follow and believe Biblical teachings, but I'm not sure that is any longer possible.
I was raised Methodist but no longer consider myself to be a member of that denomination.
I'm thankful that they gave me my initial exposure to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
The reason I no longer consider myself of that denomination is that I simply can not justify living according to some of the scripture and ignoring or downplaying others.
It doesn't matter if I like it or not if it is in scripture I must adhere to it to the very best of my ability and that includes all doctrine as laid out in the Bible.
It sounds like you and I's version of faith is very close.
I mean we have His word why not just follow the instructions as they were given and not according to our own or the groups will.
Isn't it His will that should be paramount and above all else?
Take care and God Bless...
Hi Matt! These videos, featuring visits to various churches, are what initially interested me in your channel and why I subscribed. I have enjoyed them all, more importantly, I have learned. I hope you will continue to add to this aspect of your efforts going forward. Many Thanks!
Coming from another bald, mid 40s Christian man, I love what you’re doing. I too, am tired of the division in the body of Christ because of the lack of willingness to dialogue with believers of other denominations. We are called to be unified in Christ, and we can start by interacting with each other and seeking to understand the reasons behind our differences. The world has begun using the divisions in the body of Christ to invalidate the gospel. Now, more than ever, is the time to unify and show the love for each other that Christ demanded of us. I will be following you on your journey. Godspeed!
i have been excitedly waiting for you to visit a Methodist Church. Can't wait to watch when I get off work!
Well, what did you think?
I would love to see you visit two different Methodist Churches, one on each side of the recent divide and get a take from both sides on what's going on there straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak.
I so strongly believe in this whole, church unity project. I love the sort of, taxonomy idea. My personal... ecumenical interest is in how we can be firmly centred and anchored in Christ, without getting distracted by legalistic concepts and sort of... authoritarian church structures. I want people to be able to question big ideas and still be loved and accepted as Christians, even if they have difference in beliefs - like gay marriage, or divorce, male headship, or infant baptism. Loving Christians with different beliefs as a Christian doesn't mean saying "You're going on the path of evil" or anything like that - It means, "I'm a bit worried about you, can we open a conversation as equals?" And being humble to others' points of view. Disagreement even after that sort of conversation can be superseded by loving relationship, I think, through focusing on the corest values of your beliefs. Yes, to a gay person the issue of gay marriage would be of acute importance, but what is most important, through all of that, is that person is treated with love. that means patience, kindness, active avoidance of boasting (that's not good evangelism) and envy. Fundamental and common to all of our faith(s) is Christ and love. Sorry, I went on a bit of a tangent there. Thanks for reading.
You did a good job as usual. I’m glad you got such a great interview on this Methodist church in Savannah, Georgia.
I’m all about mere Christianity and If I were to ever join a more liturgical church Like Missouri Synod Lutheran or Episcopal\Anglican etc. my only stipulation would be allowing me to Evangelize or I’m out of There!
New subscriber here! (I subscribed immediately after seeing your hilarious Daniel press conference skit) This is a really cool series to just jump in and get to know your perspective on the unity of the True Church! (a perspective that I happen to share) I grew up in a parsonage from what's known as the Conservative Holiness Movement. Sometimes colloquially called the "come-outers" because we are a loose group of small denominations that came out of the Holiness Movement which came out of the Methodist Movement. In doctrine we all share the Methodist theology for the most part, we only differ in practice. I am loving everything I've seen from your channel so far and I just subscribed to the podcast as well. Thank you for your commitment to sharing the Bible and a Biblical perspective of Christianity, with what seems to be your emphasis on reason and discourse in a Christlike manner. I believe it is so needed in the world today! 2nd Timothy 2:15
Once again, I so appreciate the sincere manner in which you seek to learn more about different Christian faith traditions. And once again, I so appreciate the gracious manner in which you are received. I learn a lot through these videos and am challenged in a good way. This is a refreshing corner of the Internet. :)
At the 5:00 mark, keep in mind that the Methodists arose out of a movement to reform / restore the Anglican church. This is why the Methodists have a lot of similarities with their Anglican forebears, including naming churches after saints (though of course not all do).
I'm a Catholic and really like learning about the different Christian churches ❤
This is such an enlightening series. Thanks for doing these. I grew up in many different churches as my dad was in the military and we moved a lot, so I ended up usually attending whichever one had the "JOY bus" come to the neighborhood and pick me up. The bottom line for all and the core message is God loves us, He has a plan for our salvation, belief in Jesus is the only way to get there, and all you have to do is ask and God is already waiting for you.
I have no idea what "conservative" even means these days. And I use the word "progressive" instead of "liberal". Both words - liberal and conservative - have been weaponized and hijacked. Labels are so angry and restrictive compared to everyday life and beliefs. Being a zealot for any cause usually shuts down dialogue and love.
I agree that they hlave become weaponized.
You have a love for the early Church, that same Church of Saint Augustine is still here. The Catholic Church. Saint Augustine wouldn't tell you to join a protestant Church. He would tell you to go to mass and follow the Church built on Saint Peter. The Catholic Church. I'm with tradition. That tradition isn't with modern protestantism.
Clarification: John Wesley taught total depravity and the inability of man on his own to seek God. He also taught that prevenient grace was extended toward all people giving them the capability to know there is a God and to know right and wrong (Romans chapters 1 & 2). It is Christ who then sends the Holy Spirit to convict the world of sin and draw all people to himself.
Is it true that he also rejected the imputation of Christ's righteousness?
@@innovationhq8230 No. He believed with other Protestants that by faith is Christ's righteousness, the price paid at Calvary's cross, imputed to the believer. However, he saw as a dangerous distortion the view held by some back then that 'imputed righteousness' meant God did not actually see the individual's sins in this life, opined that this was tantamount to the antinomian heresy. To Wesley, as in the scriptures, how we live out our faith in this life is important. As Jesus stated, "If you love me you will follow my commandments." As Paul counseled, 'You were born in the Spirit, so walk in it.' As James commented, 'Simply saying one has faith is a lie unless one shows it by actions.' The Spirit's work in practical, everyday sanctification was important to Wesley as he carried out the calling to pastor his flock.
God knows us inside and out. He is not blind to our brokenness, but rather bestows us his grace as a gift. Out of love and gratitude we seek, with the empowerment of the Spirit, to live a life conformed to the image of Christ.
“The Church of the people”
Is different than
“The Bride Of Christ”.
Their Jesus is also not the same as the Jesus of the Bible.
Yet, Jesus’s Blood is available to wash the sins of Sinners, even sinners like me, and like you,
Do not delay, Come to Jesus, Repent and start a new life, serving and loving Jesus.
Savannah and Charleston are great cities for exploring old churches.
St Simons Island Georgia is home to Christ Church (Anglican/Episcopal) where Wesley has preached as well as Epworth by the Sea Methodist retreat center.
I’m OK with being friends with those of other Christian traditions (I cherish such friendships), but I can’t deny my own convictions by saying, “Well, we disagree, therefore my position is equal to yours.”
Once you reduce a conviction down to a “breakfast cereal flavor” option, it’s no longer objectively based on the Bible. It becomes a mere opinion based on feelings. It becomes a “Your opinion is as valid as mine” sort of thinking.
I’m wary of this sort of “Christian unity” which I think will result in the rise of a false prophet who will show signs and wonders and lead naive Christians into oblivion. Those who wake up and realize they’ve been duped by faux “unity” will be scattered, but they will have no grounding in the objective Word anymore. They gave up such an idea for the sake of unity.
So, I’d rather stayed grounded in the Word and not seek Christian “unity” that asks believers to drop convictions about Baptism, Communion, the doctrine of justification, and other clear directives in the New Testament.
I’m on guard against a political climate that needs so-called “unity” among different Christians, not for the sake of the Body, but for the sake of political power… modern “crusades” against other political persuasions. You start pushing politics as something equivalent to the Gospel and you’re ripe for apostasy.
Shame about your little throw away lines about Anglicanism. You seem to have some distain for us. You are wrong on many levels. We have a rich and full history, even Wesley never left the church he remained a Church of England priest until death.
Well thank you for calling me a kindred spirit. I'm a far-left atheist, so there isn't really any room for ecumenical dialogue with me, but I do enjoy watching what you're doing. I find it important to learn both about the things that I do believe in as well as the things that I do not believe in, and you provide a lot of things to learn, with a good-willed attitude. And I hope your mission will be a success. I play no part in it, but I do want to see more people communicating with each other and less people hating each other. Perhaps if you achieve this goal and we achieve it, perhaps then you and us will someday achieve it too. Exposing oneself to the other sows seeds of wisdom, which in turn cements the destruction of prejudice.
What does your ideology have to do with it?
@@Slavaisusukhrystu like many other leftists, I don't have a favourable view towards organized religion. Not the beliefs or the people themselves, I think the bible has a lot of very good lessons to teach people, but I'm against organizations such as churches. I think that when people become an unquestionable authority over metaphysical questions, especially those of faith, there is simply too much room for an abuse of that authority. In a state, when the highest court interprets law, it in essence creates law, decides what is right and wrong on a case by case basis. In the same way, when a church authority interprets the bible, they are creating their own version of god's law, and I think no human should hold such a power over other people.
So what I mean by all this is that people should ponder the questions presented by faith by themselves, or collectively, but equally, in groups, but they should never be told what the answers to these questions are by some kind of authority, neither a pope, nor a patriarch, nor a local priest.
I left protestantism, specifically Methodism, for Catholicism because it was too confusing and I found a lot of inconsistencies and contradictions with the Scriptures. It seems like God is schizophrenic to protestants, meaning God can be who I want Him to be and it’s fine because my private interpretation is one way but your interpretation can be however it is and they both are “true”, though they contradict. Eeeeeh. Seems like a lot of relativism in protestantism. I did not like that at all.
I would take Matt’s comment about creedal Christianity is true Christianity and take it back a bit further. The Creed wouldn’t exist if it were not for Apostolic Christianity, ie Catholic and Orthodox.
The “many flavors” of Christianity view, in my mind Matt, is lazy. The early Church Fathers were Catholic/Orthodox, they weren’t Methodists/Baptist/Lutheran/Evangelical/fill in the blank. A believer should be willing to put the work in with research and study, always seeking the absolute Truth, and not a truth that’s relative to me and my own preferences. A Protestant should be discontented and ask themselves why their “flavor” is only a few hundred years old. To ask themselves what existed before their founder fractured the Body and created a new thing. To be satisfied with not asking these questions and being open to where that may take someone is laziness. I put in this work and it led me to authentic Christianity in the Apostolic Church, the Catholic Church. My Orthodox brethren share in this as well. I didn’t go the Orthodox route because I believe there’s plenty of proof for historical precedence that Rome is the “first among equals”. Orthodox and Catholics share 99% of the same faith.
I appreciate your project here, however it should be a quest for absolute truth, not a celebration of the splintering of the Church. Jesus set up one clear distinct Church that’s physical, as well as spiritual, that has identifiable characteristics that separates it from “those outside our communion”.
Catholicism isn't confusing and hasn't changed a bunch over time?
@@johnsambo9379 ☝️
Catholicism is demonic and has horrible teachings that goes directly against clear scripture. How can you say it’s like the original church? Paul warned about corrupting the word of God.
What a great answer....one holy Catholic and apostolic church, created by Christ Himself!
@@johnsambo9379 as an acorn turns into a mighty oak tree. The Church today is not going to “look” the same as it did in the 1st century when it was pushed underground and was illegal. Read the church fathers of the first few centuries, their theology, worship and practice is Catholic/Orthodox, it’s not protestant.
Have you visited a Moravian church, would like to know more
They don't believe in the rapture that's sad thanks for showing this video what part of one taken one left in Matthew 24 do they not understand only the Holy spirit can show a person the Truth of Christ
The Methodist still have the prettiest churches. Everyone else is building tin boxes.
I was raised free will baptist and stopped going to church when i became a teenager. I feel that im spritual but ive shifted to a more agnostic view. However, since starting a family, i feel myself longing for a similar community i grew up in and ive been researching UM churches. Your video was very helpful.
Thank you.
You should visit a Messianic church. I know both Jews and Christians don't like them but it would be interesting 🤔
Hey Matt. This series has always been awesome! Have you ever thought about doing a day in the life of said Christian? Like spending the day or weekend with them and seeing how their beliefs/interpretations of the bible reflect in their daily lives. I think that may be super enriching/enlightening.
Blessed be the peacemakers, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
That is "the poor in spirit" (Matthew 5:3). The peacemakers "will be called sons of God" ( Matthew 5:9)
Honestly, all churches to the left of Roman-Catholicism are liberal, while the Methodists are very liberal, since they originated from a third wave of reformation, or separation form the Anglican Church, and their systematic theology/tradition is pretty much dependent on a democratic vote.
For the gate is narrow and the way is constricted that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
Matthew 7:14
It's interesting since I sort of arrived at the same conclusion through your videos. The denominations that exists are much more like each other than they are to the cultures they exist within. That's something to celebrate. It also is interesting to see things that I think my own church could do better
great video! have you thought about visiting a quaker church/meeting house?
I'm a Moravian. They're not as obscure as you think. Visit Winston-Salem, NC, where there's almost a Moravian church on every corner.
Hello. I'm a Christian of the reformed (presbyterian) tradition. There were things I agreed with the Methodist Rev. In the original interview video. There were things I disagree with. The interview was concise.
Here are my concerns.
When we talk about the apostles Creed even that's the basics I agree. They are the foundation of what the bible teaches.
Here's the meat of my concerns. Many factions of Christianity didn't happen because a new one arose but rather there was a split from another. So we we don't have two pieces of a puzzle.
Let's look at the two that claim to be the original. Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox. They can't even get along over a theological division on the creeds. Even within protestantism there were attempts of dialogue between ideas of thought that came out a certain church tradition.
I mean Luther didn't try to leave the church and start a new one. So how can there truly be unity?
We need to ask what the gospel is.
The gospel boils down to the good news of particularly how does God interact with man. Do we say there are different gospels for different people? Do we assume they all teach the same thing. Is the doctrine of justification for example worth building bridges or is it with burning down bridges.
I think alot of that is our goal of bridges.
Matt, I am so excited about this project, and so thankful for you, and the way you’re going about it. May God continue to bless and prosper your efforts, and may God bring all his people into closer fellowship. Praise the Lord!
What church do you go to Matt Whitman?
Good afternoon, I want to first say what a joy it is to watch and learn from your videos. It has helped me better understand other denominations around the world and I am also studying why we are so different. So many areas of Christianity. My only question is in the video it appeared that the Book that was sitting at the podium appeared blank? Or was it just the lighting. Again thank you for all you do and God Bless you and your ministry
I was raised Methodist, I’m a Lutheran now because there’s a lot within the Methodist church that I have a hard time with and always has since i was a kid. Anyway one thing he didn’t mention was the Wesley’s were part of the trail riders. They ride 100s of miles from town to town preaching the gospel. If the church would’ve stayed with the Wesleyan theology it probably would be a lot better today.
well the thing about umc is it's very varied and many umc churches still stick with wesleyan theology like mine
@@philnaegely Thats good to hear but the Methodist church in general is just going in the wrong direction. A lot of them are to afraid to offend folks and are catering to the progressive crowd. Also allowing woman to preach and even some homosexual ministers in. Like I said though i've had a problem with them since I was kid and could start asking questions like, "why do i have to be ushered into another room while sermon is going and one of the biggest ones was communion. They only believe that its a symbol and that's its NOT the actual body and blood of Jesus. Even at 9 years old I understood that Jesus was very specific when he said "This IS MY body and blood, do this often in remembrance of me" and then only do it once a month or so. I also didn't like how the preacher would take one or two versus and then tell us how to live our lives according to those versus. To me thats just not how it should be done and even though i wasn't there i don't think that John or Charles preached that way either. When I walked into a LCMS church for the first time I was amazed and knew instantly that it was for me. With that being said there is other Lutheran churches that are very liberal also and totally fell away from Luthers teachings. I will only attend the LCMS. Sorry this was so long lol.
@@DavidLeatherwood1517 Jesus' ministry was inclusive of alll i definitely disagree with your specific theology, but God bless you
@@philnaegely you can disagree all you want to. Jesus was very inclusive to he preached too. Who does the preaching is a totally different story. There’s the law and there’s the Gospel. You can’t have one and not the other. Jesus taught both. He actually taught the law through his Gospel. Most people don’t get that. They don’t want to because they want be ok with their life choices so they sugar coat things. That’s the problem with a lot of pastors also.
@@philnaegely PS: it’s not “my” theology. I’m not a theologian. It’s Martin Luther’s actually. We also don’t believe that you have to keep working at obtaining salvation throughout our lives as this pastor was stating. We truly believe in grace alone Christ alone faith alone. That’s not just a catch phrase lol.
Could you visit an Armenian church/ Talk with an Armenian Apostolic Priest? I would love to watch a video with it! Fan of the talk videos, keep it up :)
Hey, Matt. I stumbled across this and really enjoyed it. I'm a United Methodist pastor of 27 years in Mississippi, and I would say that this guy's response is pretty indicative of most UMC churches. Grace would be where'd most of us would start; Grace that looks an awful lot like Jesus. I most definately agree that this would be a grim world without an array of denominations and faith traditions. We need each other, and we can learn from each other, and the stakes are high in how we treat each other and how we love one another (or fail to love one another). Thanks for promoting good will and finding common ground across the universal church. Keep up the great work!
Where is your video on this?
Great video, but minor critique on the explanation of Arminianism: At least in Wesleyan Arminianism, there is a doctrine of Prevenient Grace which proceeds Salvation, so it's not that people are capable of doing good works on their own, rather people are capable of responding to the work of the Spirit within them, even if they do not yet know Him.
John Wesley was more than a priest he was a teaching scholar, but his early ministry failed because of his chasing God with trying to be perfect and always falling short. He naturally worried about his failure and was always worried about his being saved because of it. It took maturity and those Moravians to teach him that chasing God was not necessary, because God loved him regardless of his failures, that would warm anyones heart to finally understand. He never wanted to form a denomination, all he wanted was to preach the Gospel and help people find God. And that is all Methodists traditionally wanted to do ..... but like most denominations in the last 50 years, they are sidetracked not with their faith in God but in their faith in their own assumptions about God.
Thank you for your brief but very cogent synopsis of John Wesley, his faith and ministry. Great insight in so few words!!
I entertain the following ecumenical metaphor in my mind on occasion: if the church is the body of Christ, maybe the different denominations are organs, and individuals within are cells? But if that's the case, then there seems to be some sort of autoimmune problem in the body, because the liver cells seem to think kidney cells are cancer and vice versa.
Oh I like the organ metaphor. I typically think of limbs and senses with certain expressions being more adept at certain things.
I’ve been educating my congregation on non-negotiables or essentials of the faith. God is a God of truth but also a God of variety. For me, one of the biggest issues is our understanding of the Gospel. When I left being a paramedic to be in ministry, I didn’t realize how many people misunderstand how the Bible applies to our lives! That’s why I have centered my channel on helping people understand the Bible in a practical, relevant way that keeps the true Gospel at the heart of every teaching.
I love this series. Thank you for sharing, as always!
There is a great podcast from Ancient Faith Radio with a United Methodist pastor in dialogue with an Orthodox Priest.
The Areopagus.
The pastor is a good example of a traditional Christian serving in a less traditional denomination.
Hi, Matthew - can't easily find that topic at Ancient Faith. Could you provide a link? I'd love to hear that conversation! Many thanks!
It’s funny, I go to a Methodist church, and they had talked about some of the saint’s and what they believed in from their teachings. That’s what got me interested In learning more about the different branches of Christian faith.
I think it would be awesome if you could visit an ELCA Lutheran church, so that we can see the differences between it and the LCMS
Your task of working to find common ground and unity between and among the various traditions and denominations is clearly in accord with the work of Christ. I find it a blessing that God has given us many means of expressing and living the Christian faith and life, thus offering outreach to many different types of people. I find it unfortunate when, on secondary matters, denominational / traditional food fights become the norm.
On the flip side, it strikes me that the divide we see politically is also the divide we are moving toward in the Church. Traditional, conservative cultural values - knowingly or not, derived from natural law ethics - on one side vs. liberal and progressive cultural views on the other. This is tearing apart denominations and will continue to do so. It will also likely drive a re-alignment between different denominations.
Lowkey, I think part of the reason God brought about the internet is so that Jesus's prayer for unity in John 17 will be accomplished. Great channel Matt
Matt, now that you've made new friends and new alias, what impact has your endeavor of visiting
various denominations and asking key questions, done to bring unity to the Body of Christ??
Would love for you to do a follow up visit with Pastor Daylan Woodall in Decatur, Alabama. A
series between you two to discuss how your series has impacted your view as a Christian,
and how would it impact Pastor Woodall in his theological perspective.
I too believe as Matt Whitman it is the Gospel of Jesus Christ according to John 1:1-2,14 and ISA 9:6 that is the unity of Christianity. There have been denomination issues since the early church. (Ladder half of Acts 15) It is the devil that tries to shake the faith. (Luk 22:31). When Moses went up on the mountain the congregation sinned against God. When Jesus ascended into heaven the congregation said He has been gone 2000+ years "make us gods we wot not what is become of Him". I have sampled many churches I am currently attending an UMC. We ought to trust God rather than man. SO! Find a church, follow a pastor, but KNOW Gods word and trust in God not man.
On June 12th, my church was officially disaffiliated from the United Methodist Church. The entire congregation voted 100% to leave. We paid over $200,000 to leave with our building and grounds. Very few, if any, from our Conference in Virginia will have the opportunity to leave that we had because as more churches leave, there are fewer and fewer churches left in the Conference willing to vote for churches to leave. My church is a country church, an old country church, that was begun in a log cabin before the Civil War. In fact, the church was burned down twice during the war. As a congregation we are grateful to have left the UMC and are excited about defining who we will become. Personally, I left the UMC in 2014 because of its increasingly leftist, unbiblical direction. I joined this church a year ago because it was headed in the direction of leaving. You cannot imagine the power struggles, the ideological manipulations, the twisting of Scripture that has been going on in some UMC congregations for many years. Mark my words, eventually, the UMC will become unchristian (that is, it will no longer worship Christ and claim Him as their Lord and Savior) and implode. For all those congregations who want to leave but lack the funds or are being thwarted by their hierarchy, may God find a way for you. Eventually, former UMC church buildings will go up for sale. Save your money, buy one and start anew. May God have mercy and grace upon all those congregants who feel trapped inside a nightmare. God bless you.
You are wekcome to leave any church that you please. You are not entitled to what has been entrusted throughout generations to represent the missional body of Christ in your community. The methodist theology calls the local congregation to be stewards for the larger mission of the church. Therefore, no one congregation is entitled to take property and leave.
@@pastorchrisumcoh please! UMC rejects Christ whenever it’s in conflict with their left-wing politics, and then retreats and hides behind Christ when called to account. I’m sure you feel at home in the UMC.
Liberal? Conservative? I think heretical is a better word.
Yes, Most Methodists have been heretical accept for Whitfield and the others that rejected the heresy of Arminianism.
I mean, both of those words have many meanings. Like how you view church history or interpret unclear passage, and thus often refer to tetiary interpretations. Just remember the Western uses of these words are not the whole world's
Thank God there are so many varieties of Christians, and therefore many branches of His church. Thanks for these videos.
There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, ONE FAITH, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. Ephesians 4:4-6
For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. 8 Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for, but that we may receive a full reward.
9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him; 11 for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds. 2 John 1:7-11
There is no unity in diversity within the Lord's church. If two people of different denomination believe different things then they follow two separate faiths.. not one united faith.
Went through this same mess in a PCUSA church due to the exact same reasons. In short, a UMC split is inevitable. And as with all the other denominations, the liberal churches who remain will be shells of their former selves, and will struggle to keep the lights on. I’m seeing that increase every week. We’ve had over 600+ churches leave the UMC in the last 2 years here in Georgia.
I see you have Father Josiah's book there. Would love to get your thoughts on it.
A GMC friend says they want to separate from UMC to keep their purity. She is maybe just avoiding getting contaminated by the sinfulness of others.
Not a Methodist, but I got my DMin at a UMC seminary. I think Wesley & Whitfield would be sad with how the UMC has developed. A comment about the pastor's welcoming statement: liberal churches accept and affirm people with lifestyles evangelicals do not affirm. I don't think most progressive churches affirm evangelicals.
According to holy scriptures
The LORD, his bow is a river
HABAKKUK 3:9
As someone in the UMC currently, I wanted to speak up and say right now that Methodist are overwhelmingly conservative. We fight about some progressive issues and that liberal wing tries to use every deceitful and dirty parliamentary tactic they can in the book at Annual and General Conferences to bend the church to their will, and they have failed every time because their is so much more of us who adhere to biblical authority on the issues.
All that said, our numbers don't matter. The liberal are in institutional positions of power and even when we win when voting on our resolutions and beliefs in the book of discipline, they rebel and ignore it and do whatever they want anyway and face zero consequences for it. And it's largely because of this rebellion that has brought us to where we are now heading for an inevitable ugly schism splitting the largest protestant church in history.
I also want to mention when it comes to discerning what makes us different your interview with that particular Methodist pastor wasn't very useful. By the way he answered his questions he could be apostate or he could be a traditional and true honest Methodist.
The thing about heretics in our church is the change the definitions of many words like grace and God and the trinity and so on, and don't tell you that they changed the definitions. You can think your listing to someone who preaches orthodoxy for a long time, but then finally hear then elaborate on how they define certain words and realize they are anything but orthodox one day.
So, are you planning on going GMC, or staying with the UMC?
Praying for your denomination brother. The same thing seems to be happening in nearly every denomination. Maybe this will be the catalyst to unify Christendom?
@@charliesohm6572 GMC when the time comes. But not on their terms. They want those who leave to leave through a very punishing disaffiliation procedure that will have us paying them tithes anyway for the next 100 years or so. But their is a transfer clause that should allow us to leave without doing any of that.
@@danieldishon688 Daniel, the transfer clause (p. 2548) should allow any congregation to move to the new GMC with their property, but for now the GMC is unrecognized by the UMC and this will be the more risky route. The current option (p. 2553) is rather costly, but will expire before the next General Conference takes place. As it stands now, p 2553 is the only sure way out of the UMC, which will surely go more broadly progressive, "woke" and Unitarian/Universalist after more traditional/orthodox believers leave, either with their churches or through attrition. To be sure, when and how to leave will be a hard choice to make.
Thank you for this approach to Christian church unity! It’s incredibly powerful to understand how other people and cultures think and express themselves. It makes us actively decide what we believe, rather than being passive. I appreciate it so much.
This idea of "grace" for everyone and we love everybody.. This is all good, but they have gone a step beyond and are endorsing sin by some folks in the name of inclusion. This is anti-biblical, sin itself and has no business being in any church. Grace is bestowed by the Lord God, not these people. The denial of the instructions in the Bible will doom this church and is the reason that the GMC took a huge percentage of the UMC membership. the Bible is the Word of God, not some ancient suggestions for life.
Identify as a Biblical Christian and have a personal relationship with Jesus not a relationship with a movement or organized religion.
The degree of splitting.and djviding in the UMC is misleading. Many UMC.Chhrchs so far are.nt going anywhere.
As an English person who never been to a Methodist church, its so interesting how much of it I believe it so good and foundational part of protestantism. I certainly want to read more about their theology etc.
Will you consider visiting a global Methodist Church now that we have a solid year of this new vibrant and biblical wesleyan arminian emphasis church denomination?.
I am a Methodist and I want to thank you for your approach. My opinion on the conservative verses liberal is that it's not relevant. It's more if you welcome everyone verses we only accept "God's family" and they have qualifications for what that looks like. Our church has both conservatives and liberals agreeing on spiritual equality.
We are at 1651 Talbot in Jacksonville Florida if you want to stop by.
Don't know if you covered this in your prior vids, but the modern "United Methodists" were borne of a unification between the "United Brethren" (an Anabaptist sect) and the Methodist Church in the 1960s. Some of my relatives started out as United Brethren ministers before the merge. And the United Brethren had basically splintered from other Brethren groups like the Grace Brethren. Pretty interesting history. The 1960s merger was the last big gasp of the post-war Eccumenical movement - leading up to that moment there were many different denominations who were trying to see not only if they could reconcile with each other, but in essence solidify a sort of unitary American Protestantism as a kind of national fraternity. They had strong backing from many within the US government (not FROM the government itself I should note). There are 2 people you ought to interview: Alec Ryrie of Gresham College in the UK (he is a devoted scholar of Protestantism), and Tara Isabella Burton (author of the 2020 book Strange Rites, which is an exploration of the atomization of modern religion, and the rise of new cults intertwined with commercialism) - they both have a lot of knowledge of the history of all this.
Part of that EUB merger with the Methodist Church was that while the EUB had some roots in Anabaptism, the founders of the EUB had adopted Methodist beliefs through the influence of Francis Asbury. Over time, the EUB morphed into a German-ethnic version of Methodism in the midwest and northeast. It was purely natural for the ME church and the EUB to join together.
I have friends from all different denominations. Even in my family we’re very diverse
I lived in a United Methodist church building for a couple years and they were definitely theologically liberal. Most all of their signs would have something about how “everyone is welcome here” with LGBTQ+ flags. Love that church community, especially the pastor, but I didn’t take any of his theological takes seriously due to how compromised his view of the Bible was.
The UMC is actually very theologically diverse with a wide range of opinions on many ideas including LGBT representation. I can fully believe the church you attended was how you describe, but they aren’t all like that.
@@cybercrash7 oh I wasn’t saying they were! Though I imagine the UMC will become more uniformly liberal now that the conservatives are breaking away into the GMC.
@@TheRoark My bad. I misread your comment and thought you were referring to the whole UMC instead of just the one you had experience with. And yes, many conservative churches will be leaving for the GMC, but only time will tell what happens to the state of Methodism in the coming years.
According to holy scriptures
The LORD, his bow is a river
HABAKKUK 3:9
I would love to know how one is to lovingly respond to those that are in a portion of Christianity that claims to be the one true church. It is a puzzle to encounter this as a foundational dogma; it feels like error when set alongside scripture with its emphasis on believing for salvation. Nonetheless, people of good will must move forward with charity toward those that source truth differently.
It really isn't easy for us to respond to you either, how do you lovingly explain to Protestants that the early Christians didn't hold alot of modern protestant views, that Jesus didn't intend for there to be so many denominations, and that so many just leads to chaos and confusion and therefore is not the work of Christ but of Satan.
Matt, would you be open to doing an episode with a Global Methodism and the future of Methodism?
I appreciate what you do. Raised Catholic with a Methodist mother. While in a military career, joined a Methodist church in my early 20s, then went Church of Nazarene, then Wesleyan with a Wednesday/Sunday pm Baptist. Now back to a Nazarene. While deployed overseas had my dog tags with CHRISTIAN rather than a denomination as I don't totally buy in to man's definitions. We all have many things in common and should NOT focus on our differences.
How much does Wesleyan differ from Nazarene?
@@graken14 not much. I was told merger talks stalled over university issues.
Matt you said "Creedal Christianity" several times in this video can you make a video describing what exactly you mean by that and what exactly may fall outside of that? I am thinking specifically of the Church of Latter Day Saints (Mormons). Through my work I have come into contact with several of their members and I am pretty open about my faith and they describe themselves as fellow Christians. I honestly do not know how to lovingly or truthfully address this. I love your church videos as they show how diverse the church actually is. However, doesn't there have to be limit on what we describe as Christian? What are those limits and what falls outside of that?
Credal Christianity would usually refer to two early 'creeds' of the church, the Apostles Creed and the Nicene Creed.
The creeds were written to explain what Christians believe, both for the sake of politics (to appease the Roman emperor Constantine) and to correct some heretical beliefs that had crept in - most notably Arianism which suggested Jesus was a creation of God (like a super-charged angel) as opposed to being God Himself.
Fast forward to today and most cults and sects that resemble Christianity fall into the same trap, of suggesting Jesus isn't God, or that when Jesus is God the Father isn't, or that Jesus is a created or lesser god, or that the Holy Spirit is simply a force of God rather than a person of the Trinity.
Basically, the nature of God Himself is the essence of most debate, and that's a key point where Mormons differ to Christians. Also Jehovah's Witnesses and Christadelphians, and the many other non-Christian sects.
So, 'credal Christianity' is essentially saying the beliefs of any Christian should align with those two creeds, and beliefs that contradict the creeds are not Christian.
Having grown up in, and still attending, a (mostly) Arminian Baptist church (some of our members have been Calvs, as isn't unusual among Southern Baptists): technically Arms do NOT believe that people can choose to do good apart from God, but rather than the Holy Spirit acts in everyone to empower us with the capability of doing good, and to lead us toward doing good. Of course, there are sloppy theologians sometimes who accidentally imply otherwise, but when pressed on the relevant technical points they'd agree quickly. By our free will, we choose whether to work with or against the Holy Spirit, and that's where we're morally culpable for sinning against God, since God does give us the ability and option (so far as we're morally responsible agents and not morally irresponsible by insanity or whatever), treating us as children not as mere puppets.
This key debates between Arms and Calvs on this and some other points (and their Roman Catholic predecessors; Eastern Orthodox have always been what Protestants would call Arm), involve which gospel assurance to accept or reject: the assurance that God will certainly save all sinners whom He intends to save from sin (Calv), or the assurance that God certainly intends and acts to save all sinners from sin (Arm, with some variances between Arms on how that works).
Put another way: You can be sure that God definitely intends and acts to save you, not maybe you (Arms); or you can be sure that God will definitely not maybe succeed in saving you from sin, if He intends to (Calvs).
A few of us Baptists believe both gospel assurances. But we're quite rare, and the Southern Baptist Convention denounces us while insisting that one or the other assurance can and should be accepted. It's sort of like being a trinitarian Christian living in a convention mostly made up of modalists and unitarians taking shots at one another, and occasionally flipping sides temporarily or permanently. {wry g}
Can unbelievers do anything good? For example, what does God think of Joel Osteen, who encourages millions of people with a message of love, forgiveness, compassion. Is Joel Osteen filled and empowered with the Holy Spirit to do good works as you said? If you say yes, then your theology is weak on teaching on false teachers, and wolves, and the damage they do by looking like sheep, but actually doing the work of the kingdom of darkness.
Also I think your Arminian doctrine has been influenced by the Baptist doctrine and their catechism. We have a consistent view of Arminianism throughout church history, and it's pretty clear the difference: An unbeliever can sever their relationship with Christ, God the Father can divorce Himself from His naughty and worldly children, because of their rebelling actions, just like lucifer did when he became the devil, versus a Reformed view of no, God is not like our human fathers, He won't ever leave us or forsake His elect to apostasy, remove their mansions in heaven, unseal the seal of the Holy Spirit, for how can God live in us, and not produce righteousness or fruit? Unless God never lived in us in the first place. This was the whole debate in Methodism between John Wesley and his brother George Whitefield.
According to holy scriptures
The LORD, his bow is a river
HABAKKUK 3:9
I never understand why you always speak of Calvinists and not Lutherans so much when Luther debunked everything Calvin said lol. Literally debunked it all with the Bible.
How did Luther Debunk everything taught by Calvin when he wrote a book on why Man's will is not free which is what Calvinists believe?
@@innovationhq8230 google it.
I love the church unity project videos.
Thanks Matt. You are bearing fruit with this ministry. I so look forward to each of these videos. Wish all of us who try our best to follow Jesus Christ could sit back and appreciate our historical differences as different branches of the same tree. Keep spreading what Paul calls the Gospel of reconciliation. God's continued blessings on your ministry!
I've been praying for the unity of believers despite what denomination we might belong to. Peace y'all
I've watched this 3 times and I'm not sure if I'm missing something. Is the UMC theologically progressive/liberal, moderate or conservative, both?
God loves liberals and conservatives!
Right doctrine in essential to Body of Christ. The three creeds and first seven ecumenical councils and Bible.
Ten Commandments, four sides of the quadrilateral, two commandments, one God and all of us trying to be the best Christians we can be - Methodism in 20 seconds.
The quadrilateral is specifically Methodist and might feed into the "lack of clarity" you mentioned.
I think open Communion, female Pastors & no transubstantiation are the biggest difference between Methodism & Catholicism - right?
(PS - Ongoing schism not withstanding, that will be huge - and agreed, calling it "pushing boundaries" is being very polite.)