She is indeed a great storyteller. Stories can be a wonderful way to engage with history. But I think it's important to remember that she is a storyteller, albeit a well-researched one. I find it funny to see people gushing about how refreshingly accurate Jude is compared to other historians or the Beatles themselves. But they're still just compiled stories. All storytellers care more about detail and embellishment than they do accuracy. As an example, Jude mentions the story she got from Bill Harry. She made up some details to embellish the story and create an atmosphere -- to put the audience into the story. She then allowed him to proof it. In a way, providing wrong details is a great way to stimulate memory. Bill would not have included those details unprompted, but he would react to things that are inaccurate. However, it is important to remember, that if the people do not "correct" these details, they would remain in the story. These details are made up. They serve the story. They help support the truth, but they are not true. I like that she does sometimes compare stories. I just read all the three main accounts of the trip to record The Black Dyke Mills Band (Peter Asher, Tony Bramwell and Derek Taylor -- does Paul have one? -- need to track down Alan Smith's; Gordon Mitchell's is available on beatlesbible.com). They are essentially the same but the differences are very interesting. Specifically Tony has the porter being non-chalant and accommodating when Paul asked him to shampoo Martha. Derek says he was horrified and refused. Peter does not mention this incident. Should be simple enough to ask Paul whether his dog got groomed or not. Aah memory.
This is fantastic. History IS slippery - your guest seems determined to get to the truth as much as possible. Can’t wait to hear more! Thank you, Matt!
Matt, this has been a great pleasure. This has been a another high point for your show. Please bring this wonderful woman back..oh you are...that's great!
Wow! I've been a subscriber for about a year, and love your channel. Today, I see my friend, Jude, getting interviewed. She definitely does her homework and doesn't just rely on previous Beatle books. I've done the layout for all of her book covers (not the artwork, though) and use a font based on Lennon's handwriting. Looking forward to parts 2 and 3!
Excellent interview Matt and Jude. Hey Jude! The thing with Lennon is he would say one thing one day and something else the next no matter what the subject. The one thing I'll say he was consistent about was his praise and love of Yoko.
If her work is in fact accurate (and I have no reason to doubt her)I would find her materials to be “must have” reads. Thank you for the interview Matt. Without your interview I wouldn’t know this woman exists.
I was fortunate to illustrate Volume 4 of the John Lennon Series, ‘Should Have Known Better’ & Jude is not only a wonderful author but is wonderful to work with. Her finite attention to detail consistently brings the reader into the world of Lennon and the Beatles. Thank you Matt for the pleasure of your interviews … well done!
Matt, as always I am so thankful of your excellent guests and your thoroughly original approach to Beatles topics! Your channel is my top fave for book 📖 reads. I will be busy Jude's with volumes for a while.😎✌️ Cheers 🥃🥃
Matt, so glad you had Jude on your channel. Her books are amazing and I often join her zoom presentations when possible about the Beatles. She is very passionate about John in particular but her books have an amazing amount of detail I haven’t come across before. Great video.
I was also not aware of Jude Kessler's work. Fascinating interview, can't wait for Parts 2 & 3. I'm glad that edit of Get Back by Peter Jackson was brought up. That is an action by a filmmaker, not a journalist/historian. You're both correct, he didn't need to do that. It put a spin on that scene that didn't need to be made.
Hi Matt, as usual another fine interview. To be honest I was not aware of Jude Kessler's work. It appears that she is giving Mark Lewisohn a good run for his money when it comes to accuracy. I look forward to then next two parts. Thank you.
I don't envy Jude trying to get to the bottom of these incidents, 55+ years on. In Anthology, The Beatles themselves seemed to have varying memories of their meeting with Elvis. Ringo didn't even recall playing football with The King 😁. Had I met Elvis, my memory would be crystal clear. But then again, I wouldn't be more famous than Elvis and perhaps more star struck than they were, nor, in George parlance, would I have been so high on reefers. Thanks for another great episode, I look forward to them all.
Great Interview Matt and Jude! I'd like to hear some kind of comparison between Kessler's Lennon saga and Lewisohn's Tune In. I'd just like to say what an awesome job you're doing Matt. I've watched all of your videos and I love the deep dives into the 60's acts. I listened to your talk with Antony on The Glass Onion giving an overview of 1969. Did you ever listen to Tommy James and the Shondells "Crimson and Clover" and "Cellophane Symphony" albums? I view them as companion albums just curious if anyone out there has heard them. I think they're some of the best 60's albums of all time. I think they were released in that magic period of 1968 along with many other incredible albums. Take good care Matt. I look forward to hearing more of your insights.
Thank you Darryl! I think Jude and I will tackle some more specific topics in the future. I am planning a History of tommy James and the Shondells so stay tuned!
I haven't visited your channel for a couple of months Matt and I am glad to be back. Life happens. I missed your usual comforting mixture of informative, intriguing and quite professional videos! You are one of the best at the type of subject matter that you tackle here on UA-cam. 42K+ subscribers do not do you justice. 250K-350K+ would in my opinion do. Having said all that, major kudos to someone like the delightful and talented Jude Kessler for picking a major pop/rock/avant-garde type of artist from latter half of the 20th Century and being able to write as many volumes as she presently has and will do in the future. It's quite astonishing when you really think about it! To think that I have always considered myself as a bit of an expert having read and learned through other sources quite a bit about The Beatles and John Lennon. The mind blowing thing about this is that John Lennon (as EVERYONE knows) only lived 40 years and of which, he was a professional recording artist and major influencer of pop culture for probably only 16 (debatable 18 years of his life) One could probably subtract the 5 years of his life where he "retired" helped raise a son and it would be even less time. To be able to write this much about JL is truly an astonishing and crowning achievement! Personally, even as a self confessed, mega/ huge Beatles and Classic Rock Fanatic, I wouldn't have thought possible! :) BRAVO!
I'll tell you Matt, Jude is a great talker. She speaks well and you can understand her. Wonderful insight on John. Funny how she can make fun of the length of her books. Very enjoyable video! When someone is articulate, the time flies. You two are fantastic together. Looking forward to part 2. Congrats on another great video Matt.
Loved this one Matthew!!...Did not know anything about Jude Kessler...She is a True Lennon Fangirl!...I'm very sure the Early Years of Lennon would be fantastic if He was still here to tell them!...TY for bringing this wonderful Lady to Your Channel , Matthew!...Take Good Care!...👍😃🤗!...
Nice Matt… Love the way she gave all the different accounts of the Bob Wooler Story without attaching her own conclusion. I guess the one thing we know for sure is John Lennon hit Bob Wooler. Has anyone done a deep dive into who blackened George’s eye after Pete was fired from the band? (Maybe I missed it). Did that person receive his 15 minutes of historical fame? I heard George walked under a bus that same day. Going to start reading June‘s Books, as with your channel Matt I can’t get enough of it. We all Benefit from your hard work and research. Thanks again.
Matt, Talk about obsessive. Eleven thick volumes on Lennon! I just wonder how many copies of each volume that sells. But the interview was wonderful, and Jude Jude was both thoughtful and funny. Not quite what I expected from someone who spent so much time delving into the minutiae of Lennon's life. Memory is a strange thing. I have more vivid memories, including visual snapshots like riding on a sleeper going by what must have been lake Michigan, than I do of the last calendar year. And it seems like we all remember different aspects of an event that we all attended. And I loved Jude's reference to what we used to call the telephone game. I look forward to part two.
Boy! When you think there is nothing else to unravel about The Beatles someone comes along with something more interesting. I love Paul and Ringo today but most of their stories are the same ones over and over as if they select what to tell us. This is much more interesting and she talks of things that either living Beatle talks little about perhaps because they don't remember or choose not to talk about. This seems like something of an interesting read.
Great interview. I wish Jude would get a British publisher for these books to ease the price here. Nice to see a writer so immersed in the historical narrative and doing original primary research. I wonder if Jude was able to interview Thelma Pickles. I tried after a lot of work accessing her but, as is her right, she just won't correspond, far more distant than Julia Baird. Meanwhile Thelma's memoir, touted for over 12 years and is bound to be riveting, seems no nearer publication.
It's always down to timing and I'd like to share what I'm hoping will work out to be an interesting mini-documentary. In April 1974, my late big brother with 2 of his friends, documented John and Harry Nilsson in Central Park. I've curated the images taken by my brother's friend, who was murdered in May 1980. His other friend, who is the survivor of the three, is willing to share his memories as one of the filmmakers and what it was like to be on the stage with John. There's so much to this story and I really would like to have a few moments chatting with 'Cousin Brucie,' Bruce Morrow and Mark Lapidos, to include their memories of that day. Of course, anyone else who recalls being there for the March of Dimes benefit, is welcome to share their recollections. Thanks, Matt. Looking forward to further discussions with Jude... because being an archivist is hard work! Cheers!
Great interview, thanks. One comment about the ‘sell out’ remark about wearing a suit and tie. In your later discussion regarding Stuart Sutcliffe, it seemed as though Sutcliffe had influenced John’s decision to change the Beatles’ hair and clothes to present a unique look. I guess that just reinforces that memories and interpretations change over time.
I remember a year ago when "Get Back" premiered I was so confused because when I saw that scene with Paul I didn't see him cry at all. Yet I saw tons of people on social media say that he was crying and it made them so sad they cried. Then I later learned via Robert Rodriguez's podcast that Paul wasn't crying because John wasn't there at all but because they were joking about John and Jackson just cut the film to manipulate the audience. Also Jude is right about John being so lazy that he would rarely be ready in the morning and when Paul says "And then there were two..." it makes it seem like Paul thinks John is done with the band but he was just sleeping. So it's weird manipulation in a documentary. There are a number of discrepancies about the Brian and John in Barcelona story. I was thrilled when I started reading Jude's books. She is a true treasure and a dedicated historian.
Matt , thank you so much. This is an excellent topic , and Jude Kessler is an excellent author and researcher. I was wondering what her thoughts on the exhaustive Beatles biography ( so far just one volume of a projected three ) by Mark Lewisohn. He also does a very deep dive. , Dean ( in Syracuse)
I always found John Lennon’s relationship with his father extremely interesting, especially when he and him reunited around 1965. And is somewhat distant relationship with his uncle Charles Lennon.
Mal Evans question for you -1] Does he appear in the film Help as the lost swimmer popping up thru the ice? 2) Given Mal's sad ending, I find it ironic that Ringo in the 2nd Get Back is joking about using film stock to make their own film with Paul and Ringo says "Mal is the cop gone wrong." and 3) why is Help so hard to find? I made a VHS copy back in the mid eighties myself. Could Help be another grand reissue one day? Thank you for all your great videos Matt!
Thank you for bringing this to my attention. I really love your channel! Out of interest, do you happen to know where Jude is from? As a Englishman in North Carolina I’m intrigued by her accent.
5.44-She omits Pete Best was at the Grapes discussion, and he recalls that the feeling in the band was that Epstein was obviously wealthy, had an expensive car, etc, and could do a lot for them, and there were no qualms about it, it was the smart move. How would the writer possibly know what was said between Paul and John outside The Grapes , if no-one else is there? Only Paul would know and the story doesn't appear anywhere from him.
This interview made me very excited to get all the volumes of the book series on John Lennon but they are selling on Amazon for outrageous prices for regular books and for Kindle, and I don’t do Kindle. I do real books. And I don’t want to pay $152 for a book. Hope there’s a way for me to purchase all of these volumes
Have you seen Understanding Lennon/McCartney series by breathless345? I think they’re very well put together. No narration, just articles and interviews put in chronological order. Thanks and I enjoy your channel!
Great interview! She seems to try to get history right. But still, is it possible to do? These people are dying. The sources will be gone soon. Anyway another great interview. I've been taking some time off of my phone. How did you get from 100 to 122. Lots of catching up to do. I'm excited to see the Small Faces! Omg! Love your stuff! Are you planning to do anything about Todd rundgren? I have to ask. Just saw him in concert. He was awesome@!
Hello Maureen, it is still quite possible to get history right via documentation, which is how Lewisohn has had so much success with his work. I did an video on the Nazz so if to haven’t seen that, that may be something for your Todd Rundgren fix.
Hi Matt, Enjoying your series. Working my way through the Byrds and looking forward to Buffalo Springfield. You've said that you welcome suggestions/requests for band reviews. How do I do this please?
@@popgoesthe60s52 Fab! Well, how about keeping with the Steve Marriott theme and do a Humble Pie talk? People have told me that in the USA, the Pie could blow Zeppelin off the stage some nights! Failing that, how about British bands the Artwoods or the Action? Keep up the good work! Many thanks. KOKO
Hi Matt, is this the female Mark Lewisohn ? Will have to get a couple of her Lennon books - some are on Amazon Kindle. I recall my meetings with Allan Williams back in the 80s when I lived in Liverpool and I met Wooler at the Conventions. Good company until the drink took over !
@@popgoesthe60s52 Yeah, Wooler was a gentleman and during the day, he was a lovely fellow. However, by 10.30ish, after he'd had a few drinks, he became a completely different person and became violent ! And he was a big man ! Williams would just talk you to death when he'd had a few drinks and he was often called to sort Wooler out !
Closer to the truth. Of course, the more you know the more you become aware of things you don't know. Ultimately I feel that most people will latch onto the narrative that they want to know. For example, Jackson's film shows Yoko was NOT a disruptive presence in the studio. This clashed with the reason they hate Yoko in the first place, so they simply trapeze to an alternate narrative that allows them to continue to hate.
@@donnaone1nine You don't read very well, do you? Did I say anything about hiding truth? The truth is in front of your face. It's your interpretation that you will wrestle with. Thanks for proving my point though.
Listening to the Nagra reels tells a more complete story than we’re shown in the Get Back film. This was inevitable…the market for a 60 hour + film is almost nil. A person can both not hate Yoko Ono and also think that Lennon bringing her into the studio in 1968 & forward was a disruptive move.
“Biographer of Sorts” 😆. Dodged a bullet there matey boy 🤣. The thing is Americans get the cultural context so wrong. What percentage of Liverpool society is Irish 🙄😆🤣 . Lewiston is correct . Greetings from Scotland btw.
This is my favorite 60s and Beatles related YT channel. I REALLY wanted to love this author and her stories, but I just don’t why her style is so off putting. Is it her arguably obsessive nature regarding John (although I’m a huge John fan)? Is it her non-stop talking? Maybe I’m just drawn to a more traditional, academic approach rather than the Michneresque framing. Regardless I’m looking forward to seeing more about her and her works. EDIT: ok… by the end, I’m warming up to her approach. I think your focusing her on specific topics was very helpful. Bring on Part 2!
Thank you for the update, Laura. I recorded a single conversation and broke it into 3 videos so you’ll find the other 2 dealing with mode specific topics while the first was meant as an introductory overview video. Next video will be up in 4-5 days.
Always good to hear reservations about this or that style, making us reflect on what works and what doesn't and why. This author's new to me, I only sampled 2 pages so far but I'm shelling out for a hard copy, not cheap from England. Dramatising a narrative puts great pressure on a writer to get the tone right in extended dialogue - - the cadence and slang of outdated working class Liverpool dialogue is a big ask for an American in Alabama. But I love her ambition and the tenacity of her research to travel to the roots and interview people who were there, just in time. Many Beatle books are pedestrian in ambition where all we can expect, style-wise, is clarity and, if we're lucky, fluency. Given that we're dealing with an astonishingly creative band, writers should be inspired to raise their game, if they are any good as writers. I always liken these descriptive ambitions to New Journalism, and there's great scope there - - you know, the Tom Wolfe/Norman Mailer/ Hunter Thompson end of town. So I'm wary and hopeful. I like how authentic her ambition is to get closer to historic reality by going further than establishing the facts, by trying to make facts come to life. I'm hoping she pulls it off because the effort deserves it.
Well, if drinks were involved it (sadly) is not surprising punches flew. However, Lennon famously could drop vitriolic remarks against others frequently. But he apparently wasn't very good at handling remarks from others.
7.10 'I wasn't familiar with that story' ha ha ha. Nor was anybody else. It sounds like a confabulation by Alan Williams to keep the double whiskies coming. Don't have any problem with Beatle mythos, it's fun, but call it what it is. Surely Paul would have recounted that story at some point if it was such a thunderous moment. Gawd knows he's mined every Beatle memory he has. Surely the weight of evidence is that JL was completely on board with doing whatever cynical career move it took. I think the self recrimination about selling out was only later, retrospective. Also-would anybody have used the phrase 'sold out' in 1962? Hmmm.
@@mark9058 Agreed, but all good confabulations have a grain of psychological plausibility about them. Self doubt is part of every person's make up. But Brian would have seemed like a Godsend. John thought he was already too old to make it in pop music. (he was the same age as Cliff Richard) And JL said '...We were nowhere until Brian..' Another Merseybeat group was starting to challenge them for popularity on the local scene, and JL would have been aware Merseybeat had a very limited shelf life....and no one else declared any interest in The Beatles re management in 1962. If John's moment of doubt and pain was so pivotal, and career deciding, I think it would have emerged in Beatles hagiography prior to now.
@@mark9058 I think Lennon's fear in 62 would have been that The Beatles weren't going to sell anything, rather than sell out. My guess is the term originated with the beatniks, and slowly spread out. Dylan used the term in 65. But 62 in Northern England I would really question.
"Surely the weight of evidence is that JL was completely on board with doing whatever cynical career move it took." Paul has said that he believes that John went on the trip with Brian as a power move to gain more influence in the group -- a weird thing to say if John was already the leader, but the point is that this contention supports the idea that John was also career-oriented and cynical. Plus, it's interesting to note that after that trip the credits flipped to Lennon-McCartney from McCartney-Lennon.
@@Kieop Thanks for the moral support. You only have to look at the early Beatles work ethic and schedule (or consider the indignities they routinely underwent In Hamburg) to know they would have had to have been incredibly driven to withstand it. It couldn't be otherwise. I don't even think it's a matter of debate, really.
idon't know how to continue this. these days my son and I sit and talk about the ruinous life around us, the government/people gone mad with lock-downs, twisting of definitions to fill the needs of movements, and we always end up back in the sixties as part of the 3 times our society went nuts. from the wilson presidency, the post ww1 destruction of gremany to ww2, the baby boomers then raising the most selfish, cry-baby generation and the most violent period in American history, especially for women, other than the Arizona area around the tombstone period. don't argue with me...i study criminology and I have the receipts, the data....and I lived this time. i saw first hand the phonies, the fake love, and brotherhood nonsense. and then there is the beatles. they were a band. a great song writing foursome with great sing a long world-loving songs for everybody. and they themselves really had nothing to do with the failings around them...they were just a band that struck the chord musically. but can I keep studying them? can I get past the pop and start looking at other life around me? i don't know...i just sometimes start to feel I am feeding a very insignificant beast.
I have never heard of this woman or her Lennon biography before. I've never seen it marketed or even mentioned in any lists of Lennon biographies. Makes me doubt the value of her work. I looked over the sample chapters. She is quoting everybody. How could she quote conversations that took place on an airplane in 1964? I have my doubts about this series. Oh!!! I see. I went to eBay to see if her books were on sale. Now I understand. These are NOVELS. No wonder. There are great biographies of Lennon out there. Who needs a set of novels with made-up conversations and actions.
Stupid remark,....A street fighter does not make a boxer!!! So why would she say that..? If john was so good at fighting why be a songwriter..? Der...!! What a silly comment. And anyway all of the different authors whoever wrote about Johns fight with Bob Wooler, they've all written roughly around the same results of the fight, what is the big deal to these americans..?! It's pathetic. Bob Wooler himself even said to her and alluded to the fact that he got quite significantly hurt by John. There's your answer, enough.....
I have listen for seven minutes now, and I don't believe her so far. According to Mark Lewisohn it was Paul who questioned the signing with Brian Epstein. He was 45 minutes late to the meeting ("... but he's very clean"), and according to M L Brian could never decided what the boys should do. He could only propose things, as this with the suits. And that came later. The impression so far with this interview, is that the female author colours the story a lot with feelings or emotions I don't trust such a storytelling. I want the truth and nothing else. Just as it was. Good or bad.
John also agreed to the suits: "I'll wear a bloody balloon on stage. I'm not in love with the leather that much". Also, as stated, Brian Epstein could never force anything on anyone, because the group never would have allowed it. John is said to have once told him, " You stick to your 10%" (referring to what the Beatles were paying him).
@@christophercruz8359 Yes, and why didn't The Beatles stop wearing suites when Brian died? They should have felt a big relief and gone back to the leather again. It was only fine years ago ...🙂
@@popgoesthe60s52 Ok, I see. But I'm not sure I ll go back and listen to the video till the end anyway. I think you always make good videos and I like you, but as I wrote, she seems to place a filter of emotions over everything. I may be wrong, but there's to much of such things theese days.
One of the most chilling parts of 'Get Back' is John's 'I've had a drink - remember Bob Wooller guys'. She is nothing more than a Lennon apologist [and a very poor one at that]. For people here to compare her to Lewisohn is laughable.
This interview with June Kessler is delightful and she is a great storyteller. Thanks, Matt!
She is indeed a great storyteller. Stories can be a wonderful way to engage with history. But I think it's important to remember that she is a storyteller, albeit a well-researched one. I find it funny to see people gushing about how refreshingly accurate Jude is compared to other historians or the Beatles themselves. But they're still just compiled stories.
All storytellers care more about detail and embellishment than they do accuracy. As an example, Jude mentions the story she got from Bill Harry. She made up some details to embellish the story and create an atmosphere -- to put the audience into the story. She then allowed him to proof it. In a way, providing wrong details is a great way to stimulate memory. Bill would not have included those details unprompted, but he would react to things that are inaccurate. However, it is important to remember, that if the people do not "correct" these details, they would remain in the story. These details are made up. They serve the story. They help support the truth, but they are not true.
I like that she does sometimes compare stories. I just read all the three main accounts of the trip to record The Black Dyke Mills Band (Peter Asher, Tony Bramwell and Derek Taylor -- does Paul have one? -- need to track down Alan Smith's; Gordon Mitchell's is available on beatlesbible.com). They are essentially the same but the differences are very interesting. Specifically Tony has the porter being non-chalant and accommodating when Paul asked him to shampoo Martha. Derek says he was horrified and refused. Peter does not mention this incident. Should be simple enough to ask Paul whether his dog got groomed or not. Aah memory.
This is fantastic. History IS slippery - your guest seems determined to get to the truth as much as possible. Can’t wait to hear more! Thank you, Matt!
I appreciate the comment. Part two will be out in 4-5 days, so stay tuned!
Matt, this has been a great pleasure. This has been a another high point for your show. Please bring this wonderful woman back..oh you are...that's great!
Wow! I've been a subscriber for about a year, and love your channel. Today, I see my friend, Jude, getting interviewed. She definitely does her homework and doesn't just rely on previous Beatle books. I've done the layout for all of her book covers (not the artwork, though) and use a font based on Lennon's handwriting. Looking forward to parts 2 and 3!
Nice to meet you, Tim. Jude is quite lovely and I am glad to have met her. Stay tuned for more!
Excellent interview Matt and Jude. Hey Jude! The thing with Lennon is he would say one thing one day and something else the next no matter what the subject. The one thing I'll say he was consistent about was his praise and love of Yoko.
If her work is in fact accurate (and I have no reason to doubt her)I would find her materials to be “must have” reads. Thank you for the interview Matt. Without your interview I wouldn’t know this woman exists.
I was fortunate to illustrate Volume 4 of the John Lennon Series, ‘Should Have Known Better’ & Jude is not only a wonderful author but is wonderful to work with. Her finite attention to detail consistently brings the reader into the world of Lennon and the Beatles. Thank you Matt for the pleasure of your interviews … well done!
Good to hear from you, Susan!
Matt, as always I am so thankful of your excellent guests and your thoroughly original approach to Beatles topics! Your channel is my top fave for book 📖 reads. I will be busy Jude's with volumes for a while.😎✌️ Cheers 🥃🥃
Thanks Paul!
trustworthy and interesting person interpreting john's life especially during the year i was born. thanks.
Matt, so glad you had Jude on your channel. Her books are amazing and I often join her zoom presentations when possible about the Beatles. She is very passionate about John in particular but her books have an amazing amount of detail I haven’t come across before. Great video.
Thanks Stephen!
Where do I find her zoom presentations please?
@@melvynobrien6193 not sure. By the time I discovered Jude’s books that particular book was sold out.
"History is merely gossip." - Oscar Wilde
LOVE this series with Jude Kessler!!
Great interview and i just bought her books to date. Can’t wait to read them!
I was also not aware of Jude Kessler's work. Fascinating interview, can't wait for Parts 2 & 3. I'm glad that edit of Get Back by Peter Jackson was brought up. That is an action by a filmmaker, not a journalist/historian. You're both correct, he didn't need to do that. It put a spin on that scene that didn't need to be made.
Hi Matt, as usual another fine interview. To be honest I was not aware of Jude Kessler's work. It appears that she is giving Mark Lewisohn a good run for his money when it comes to accuracy. I look forward to then next two parts. Thank you.
And she seems to work faster than Lewisohn lol
@@petederek7174 for sure. He's not a young man either, Come on Mark! Lol
Such an enjoyable listen!
Thank you for watching, Anna!
Huge respect for the author. And thanks to you, Matt, great job, always.
I don't envy Jude trying to get to the bottom of these incidents, 55+ years on. In Anthology, The Beatles themselves seemed to have varying memories of their meeting with Elvis. Ringo didn't even recall playing football with The King 😁. Had I met Elvis, my memory would be crystal clear. But then again, I wouldn't be more famous than Elvis and perhaps more star struck than they were, nor, in George parlance, would I have been so high on reefers.
Thanks for another great episode, I look forward to them all.
Thank you James!
Great Interview Matt and Jude! I'd like to hear some kind of comparison between Kessler's Lennon saga and Lewisohn's Tune In. I'd just like to say what an awesome job you're doing Matt. I've watched all of your videos and I love the deep dives into the 60's acts. I listened to your talk with Antony on The Glass Onion giving an overview of 1969. Did you ever listen to Tommy James and the Shondells "Crimson and Clover" and "Cellophane Symphony" albums? I view them as companion albums just curious if anyone out there has heard them. I think they're some of the best 60's albums of all time. I think they were released in that magic period of 1968 along with many other incredible albums. Take good care Matt. I look forward to hearing more of your insights.
Thank you Darryl! I think Jude and I will tackle some more specific topics in the future. I am planning a History of tommy James and the Shondells so stay tuned!
Absolutely Love This Compelling, Thought Provoking, Evocative Interview. Must Read Her Books. Can’t Wait for the Next Interview, Matt.
I haven't visited your channel for a couple of months Matt and I am glad to be back. Life happens. I missed your usual comforting mixture of informative, intriguing and quite professional videos! You are one of the best at the type of subject matter that you tackle here on UA-cam. 42K+ subscribers do not do you justice. 250K-350K+ would in my opinion do. Having said all that, major kudos to someone like the delightful and talented Jude Kessler for picking a major pop/rock/avant-garde type of artist from latter half of the 20th Century and being able to write as many volumes as she presently has and will do in the future. It's quite astonishing when you really think about it! To think that I have always considered myself as a bit of an expert having read and learned through other sources quite a bit about The Beatles and John Lennon. The mind blowing thing about this is that John Lennon (as EVERYONE knows) only lived 40 years and of which, he was a professional recording artist and major influencer of pop culture for probably only 16 (debatable 18 years of his life) One could probably subtract the 5 years of his life where he "retired" helped raise a son and it would be even less time. To be able to write this much about JL is truly an astonishing and crowning achievement! Personally, even as a self confessed, mega/ huge Beatles and Classic Rock Fanatic, I wouldn't have thought possible! :) BRAVO!
Welcome back T Dunph! Thanks for the kind remarks as well.
I'll tell you Matt, Jude is a great talker. She speaks well and you can understand her. Wonderful insight on John. Funny how she can make fun of the length of her books. Very enjoyable video! When someone is articulate, the time flies. You two are fantastic together. Looking forward to part 2. Congrats on another great video Matt.
This really interesting. This lady, Jude is really interesting. Great interview too Matt.
Thank you, I will have to have Jude back.
Enjoyed the show, looking forward to more with this lovely guest. 😍
Loved this one Matthew!!...Did not know anything about Jude Kessler...She is a True Lennon Fangirl!...I'm very sure the Early Years of Lennon would be fantastic if He was still here to tell them!...TY for bringing this wonderful Lady to Your Channel , Matthew!...Take Good Care!...👍😃🤗!...
Thank you Barb!
Nice Matt… Love the way she gave all the different accounts of the Bob Wooler Story without attaching her own conclusion. I guess the one thing we know for sure is John Lennon hit Bob Wooler.
Has anyone done a deep dive into who blackened George’s eye after Pete was fired from the band? (Maybe I missed it).
Did that person receive his 15 minutes of historical fame? I heard George walked under a bus that same day.
Going to start reading June‘s Books, as with your channel Matt I can’t get enough of it. We all Benefit from your hard work and research. Thanks again.
Hey Bob! The George black eye incident was covered in Lewisohn's Tune In and I believe he named the assailant. Plenty more to come!
Another excellent episode, and another book for me to read, thank you Matt!
Excellent discussion...thanks guys
Matt, Talk about obsessive. Eleven thick volumes on Lennon! I just wonder how many copies of each volume that sells. But the interview was wonderful, and Jude Jude was both thoughtful and funny. Not quite what I expected from someone who spent so much time delving into the minutiae of Lennon's life.
Memory is a strange thing. I have more vivid memories, including visual snapshots like riding on a sleeper going by what must have been lake Michigan, than I do of the last calendar year. And it seems like we all remember different aspects of an event that we all attended.
And I loved Jude's reference to what we used to call the telephone game. I look forward to part two.
Boy! When you think there is nothing else to unravel about The Beatles someone comes along with something more interesting. I love Paul and Ringo today but most of their stories are the same ones over and over as if they select what to tell us. This is much more interesting and she talks of things that either living Beatle talks little about perhaps because they don't remember or choose not to talk about. This seems like something of an interesting read.
Great interview. I wish Jude would get a British publisher for these books to ease the price here. Nice to see a writer so immersed in the historical narrative and doing original primary research. I wonder if Jude was able to interview Thelma Pickles. I tried after a lot of work accessing her but, as is her right, she just won't correspond, far more distant than Julia Baird. Meanwhile Thelma's memoir, touted for over 12 years and is bound to be riveting, seems no nearer publication.
I remember speaking to Julia and she was a delight - even signing my copy of LAIBACH’s Let it Be!
Great information as always. Very entertaining and interesting. Thanks.
The internet means, I can remain in 1968, and no one can make me leave.
Anyone have a link to a bootleg where we hear the unedited "where's john" segment? I had no idea it was edited and would like to hear the full thing
It's always down to timing and I'd like to share what I'm hoping will work out to be an interesting mini-documentary. In April 1974, my late big brother with 2 of his friends, documented John and Harry Nilsson in Central Park. I've curated the images taken by my brother's friend, who was murdered in May 1980. His other friend, who is the survivor of the three, is willing to share his memories as one of the filmmakers and what it was like to be on the stage with John. There's so much to this story and I really would like to have a few moments chatting with 'Cousin Brucie,' Bruce Morrow and Mark Lapidos, to include their memories of that day. Of course, anyone else who recalls being there for the March of Dimes benefit, is welcome to share their recollections. Thanks, Matt. Looking forward to further discussions with Jude... because being an archivist is hard work! Cheers!
Hey Mark - good luck on the doc. Sounds very worthwhile!
Great interview, thanks.
One comment about the ‘sell out’ remark about wearing a suit and tie. In your later discussion regarding Stuart Sutcliffe, it seemed as though Sutcliffe had influenced John’s decision to change the Beatles’ hair and clothes to present a unique look. I guess that just reinforces that memories and interpretations change over time.
Good point!
I remember a year ago when "Get Back" premiered I was so confused because when I saw that scene with Paul I didn't see him cry at all. Yet I saw tons of people on social media say that he was crying and it made them so sad they cried. Then I later learned via Robert Rodriguez's podcast that Paul wasn't crying because John wasn't there at all but because they were joking about John and Jackson just cut the film to manipulate the audience. Also Jude is right about John being so lazy that he would rarely be ready in the morning and when Paul says "And then there were two..." it makes it seem like Paul thinks John is done with the band but he was just sleeping. So it's weird manipulation in a documentary. There are a number of discrepancies about the Brian and John in Barcelona story. I was thrilled when I started reading Jude's books. She is a true treasure and a dedicated historian.
Hey Tony, thank you for the comments. I'm sure Jude will appreciate it! I hope to have her back next year.
Now I want to read this!
thanks Matt.. another maybe 10 or 11 books to read :)
been into these book(s) for a while
Would LOVE to hear what else Pete Jackson "editorialized" in Get Back. Kinda pissed off that happened, but I guess that's what directors do.
I always find that all the facets of John Lennon, make him come across as a very typical and normal human.
A typical and normal wife beater ?
Matt , thank you so much. This is an excellent topic , and Jude Kessler is an excellent author and researcher. I was wondering what her thoughts on the exhaustive Beatles biography ( so far just one volume of a projected three ) by Mark Lewisohn.
He also does a very deep dive.
, Dean ( in Syracuse)
She is a friend of Lewisohn's and she rates his work very highly.
I always found John Lennon’s relationship with his father extremely interesting, especially when he and him reunited around 1965. And is somewhat distant relationship with his uncle Charles Lennon.
Very interesting.
Thanks Matt, great interview!
Are you planning to do a Beau Brummels history?
Definitely!
Mal Evans question for you -1] Does he appear in the film Help as the lost swimmer popping up thru the ice? 2) Given Mal's sad ending, I find it ironic that Ringo in the 2nd Get Back is joking about using film stock to make their own film with Paul and Ringo says "Mal is the cop gone wrong." and 3) why is Help so hard to find? I made a VHS copy back in the mid eighties myself. Could Help be another grand reissue one day? Thank you for all your great videos Matt!
I can help you with #3. The Help film came out in a very nice box set.
I bought it about 2 years ago new and it was quite cheap for what you got.
Mal is the swimmer. Help is sold widely on Blu-ray, Ebay etc...not hard to find at all.
3:03 - as the Authour of OCTOPUS’ GARDEN, surely Ringo could’ve easily written a song called Eight Arms to Hold You?! 🤪🐙
'Eight Arms to Hold You"... said the Spider to the Fly....
Thank you for bringing this to my attention. I really love your channel!
Out of interest, do you happen to know where Jude is from? As a Englishman in North Carolina I’m intrigued by her accent.
She from Louisiana.
5.44-She omits Pete Best was at the Grapes discussion, and he recalls that the feeling in the band was that Epstein was obviously wealthy, had an expensive car, etc, and could do a lot for them, and there were no qualms about it, it was the smart move. How would the writer possibly know what was said between Paul and John outside The Grapes , if no-one else is there? Only Paul would know and the story doesn't appear anywhere from him.
This interview made me very excited to get all the volumes of the book series on John Lennon but they are selling on Amazon for outrageous prices for regular books and for Kindle, and I don’t do Kindle. I do real books. And I don’t want to pay $152 for a book. Hope there’s a way for me to purchase all of these volumes
Luv it
Was "Starting Over" really a song dedicated to Paul? Discuss...
Have you seen Understanding Lennon/McCartney series by breathless345? I think they’re very well put together. No narration, just articles and interviews put in chronological order.
Thanks and I enjoy your channel!
Yes, I have some of those and I really appreciate the work put into them. They are very good. I appreciate the comment, Mez.
@@popgoesthe60s52 you bet, keep it up!…
Yes, they're great. But they're not documentary, they're media collage art.
Great interview! She seems to try to get history right. But still, is it possible to do?
These people are dying. The sources will be gone soon. Anyway another great interview. I've been taking some time off of my phone. How did you get from 100 to 122. Lots of catching up to do. I'm excited to see the Small Faces! Omg! Love your stuff! Are you planning to do anything about Todd rundgren? I have to ask. Just saw him in concert. He was awesome@!
Hello Maureen, it is still quite possible to get history right via documentation, which is how Lewisohn has had so much success with his work. I did an video on the Nazz so if to haven’t seen that, that may be something for your Todd Rundgren fix.
Hi Matt,
Enjoying your series. Working my way through the Byrds and looking forward to Buffalo Springfield.
You've said that you welcome suggestions/requests for band reviews. How do I do this please?
People just leave requests here in the comment section. Thanks for the support, Georgie!
@@popgoesthe60s52 Fab!
Well, how about keeping with the Steve Marriott theme and do a Humble Pie talk? People have told me that in the USA, the Pie could blow Zeppelin off the stage some nights!
Failing that, how about British bands the Artwoods or the Action? Keep up the good work!
Many thanks. KOKO
Why didn’t she answer who the source was for John’s statement to Paul about selling out ? Did I miss it ?
Hi Matt, is this the female Mark Lewisohn ? Will have to get a couple of her Lennon books - some are on Amazon Kindle. I recall my meetings with Allan Williams back in the 80s when I lived in Liverpool and I met Wooler at the Conventions. Good company until the drink took over !
Yeah Wooler and Williams seem to be 2 peas in the same pod. Only reliable to a point.
@@popgoesthe60s52 Yeah, Wooler was a gentleman and during the day, he was a lovely fellow. However, by 10.30ish, after he'd had a few drinks, he became a completely different person and became violent ! And he was a big man ! Williams would just talk you to death when he'd had a few drinks and he was often called to sort Wooler out !
So Bob Wooler got his ass kicked. Got it.
Hi Matt maybe John should of set up a fight with Ali!
Btw I still write checks
Closer to the truth. Of course, the more you know the more you become aware of things you don't know.
Ultimately I feel that most people will latch onto the narrative that they want to know. For example, Jackson's film shows Yoko was NOT a disruptive presence in the studio. This clashed with the reason they hate Yoko in the first place, so they simply trapeze to an alternate narrative that allows them to continue to hate.
@@donnaone1nine You don't read very well, do you? Did I say anything about hiding truth? The truth is in front of your face. It's your interpretation that you will wrestle with. Thanks for proving my point though.
Listening to the Nagra reels tells a more complete story than we’re shown in the Get Back film. This was inevitable…the market for a 60 hour + film is almost nil.
A person can both not hate Yoko Ono and also think that Lennon bringing her into the studio in 1968 & forward was a disruptive move.
She also forgot John Lennon had a hit song with “number nine dream” because of his love of the number nine
“Biographer of Sorts” 😆. Dodged a bullet there matey boy 🤣. The thing is Americans get the cultural context so wrong. What percentage of Liverpool society is Irish 🙄😆🤣 . Lewiston is correct . Greetings from Scotland btw.
For obvious reasons this should be 9 books.
Did you know that "Hey Jude" was actually written for Jude Kessler?
That accent sounds like my part of the country.
This is my favorite 60s and Beatles related YT channel. I REALLY wanted to love this author and her stories, but I just don’t why her style is so off putting. Is it her arguably obsessive nature regarding John (although I’m a huge John fan)? Is it her non-stop talking? Maybe I’m just drawn to a more traditional, academic approach rather than the Michneresque framing. Regardless I’m looking forward to seeing more about her and her works. EDIT: ok… by the end, I’m warming up to her approach. I think your focusing her on specific topics was very helpful. Bring on Part 2!
Thank you for the update, Laura. I recorded a single conversation and broke it into 3 videos so you’ll find the other 2 dealing with mode specific topics while the first was meant as an introductory overview video. Next video will be up in 4-5 days.
Always good to hear reservations about this or that style, making us reflect on what works and what doesn't and why. This author's new to me, I only sampled 2 pages so far but I'm shelling out for a hard copy, not cheap from England. Dramatising a narrative puts great pressure on a writer to get the tone right in extended dialogue - - the cadence and slang of outdated working class Liverpool dialogue is a big ask for an American in Alabama. But I love her ambition and the tenacity of her research to travel to the roots and interview people who were there, just in time. Many Beatle books are pedestrian in ambition where all we can expect, style-wise, is clarity and, if we're lucky, fluency. Given that we're dealing with an astonishingly creative band, writers should be inspired to raise their game, if they are any good as writers. I always liken these descriptive ambitions to New Journalism, and there's great scope there - - you know, the Tom Wolfe/Norman Mailer/ Hunter Thompson end of town. So I'm wary and hopeful. I like how authentic her ambition is to get closer to historic reality by going further than establishing the facts, by trying to make facts come to life. I'm hoping she pulls it off because the effort deserves it.
her 10th book could be called ' the one after 9 o' nine'
Well, if drinks were involved it (sadly) is not surprising punches flew. However, Lennon famously could drop vitriolic remarks against others frequently. But he apparently wasn't very good at handling remarks from others.
7.10 'I wasn't familiar with that story' ha ha ha. Nor was anybody else. It sounds like a confabulation by Alan Williams to keep the double whiskies coming. Don't have any problem with Beatle mythos, it's fun, but call it what it is. Surely Paul would have recounted that story at some point if it was such a thunderous moment. Gawd knows he's mined every Beatle memory he has. Surely the weight of evidence is that JL was completely on board with doing whatever cynical career move it took. I think the self recrimination about selling out was only later, retrospective. Also-would anybody have used the phrase 'sold out' in 1962? Hmmm.
@@mark9058 Agreed, but all good confabulations have a grain of psychological plausibility about them. Self doubt is part of every person's make up. But Brian would have seemed like a Godsend. John thought he was already too old to make it in pop music. (he was the same age as Cliff Richard) And JL said '...We were nowhere until Brian..' Another Merseybeat group was starting to challenge them for popularity on the local scene, and JL would have been aware Merseybeat had a very limited shelf life....and no one else declared any interest in The Beatles re management in 1962. If John's moment of doubt and pain was so pivotal, and career deciding, I think it would have emerged in Beatles hagiography prior to now.
@@mark9058 I think Lennon's fear in 62 would have been that The Beatles weren't going to sell anything, rather than sell out. My guess is the term originated with the beatniks, and slowly spread out. Dylan used the term in 65. But 62 in Northern England I would really question.
"Surely the weight of evidence is that JL was completely on board with doing whatever cynical career move it took."
Paul has said that he believes that John went on the trip with Brian as a power move to gain more influence in the group -- a weird thing to say if John was already the leader, but the point is that this contention supports the idea that John was also career-oriented and cynical. Plus, it's interesting to note that after that trip the credits flipped to Lennon-McCartney from McCartney-Lennon.
@@Kieop Thanks for the moral support. You only have to look at the early Beatles work ethic and schedule (or consider the indignities they routinely underwent In Hamburg) to know they would have had to have been incredibly driven to withstand it. It couldn't be otherwise. I don't even think it's a matter of debate, really.
Matt, your photo spells her name as Hessler.
The “k” in the font I use looks like an “h”. Not much I ca do about it unfortunately.
idon't know how to continue this.
these days my son and I sit and talk about the ruinous life around us, the government/people gone mad with lock-downs, twisting of definitions to fill the needs of movements, and we always end up back in the sixties as part of the 3 times our society went nuts.
from the wilson presidency, the post ww1 destruction of gremany to ww2, the baby boomers then raising the most selfish, cry-baby generation and the most violent period in American history, especially for women, other than the Arizona area around the tombstone period.
don't argue with me...i study criminology and I have the receipts, the data....and I lived this time. i saw first hand the phonies, the fake love, and brotherhood nonsense.
and then there is the beatles.
they were a band.
a great song writing foursome with great sing a long world-loving songs for everybody.
and they themselves really had nothing to do with the failings around them...they were just a band that struck the chord musically.
but can I keep studying them? can I get past the pop and start looking at other life around me?
i don't know...i just sometimes start to feel I am feeding a very insignificant beast.
I have never heard of this woman or her Lennon biography before. I've never seen it marketed or even mentioned in any lists of Lennon biographies. Makes me doubt the value of her work. I looked over the sample chapters. She is quoting everybody. How could she quote conversations that took place on an airplane in 1964? I have my doubts about this series.
Oh!!! I see. I went to eBay to see if her books were on sale. Now I understand. These are NOVELS. No wonder. There are great biographies of Lennon out there. Who needs a set of novels with made-up conversations and actions.
Stupid remark,....A street fighter does not make a boxer!!! So why would she say that..? If john was so good at fighting why be a songwriter..? Der...!! What a silly comment. And anyway all of the different authors whoever wrote about Johns fight with Bob Wooler, they've all written roughly around the same results of the fight, what is the big deal to these americans..?! It's pathetic. Bob Wooler himself even said to her and alluded to the fact that he got quite significantly hurt by John. There's your answer, enough.....
The Beatles multiverse.
it is no 9 because if he would be live nowadays - it would be 10 , missing 1
Funny she calls Brian "EpstEEn."
I have listen for seven minutes now, and I don't believe her so far. According to Mark Lewisohn it was Paul who questioned the signing with Brian Epstein. He was 45 minutes late to the meeting ("... but he's very clean"), and according to M L Brian could never decided what the boys should do. He could only propose things, as this with the suits. And that came later.
The impression so far with this interview, is that the female author colours the story a lot with feelings or emotions I don't trust such a storytelling. I want the truth and nothing else. Just as it was. Good or bad.
I agree. And she just saw Allen Williams? How do you interview a dead person?
That interview took place many years ago. She alluded to this as a time she interviewed many witnesses who are now gone.
John also agreed to the suits: "I'll wear a bloody balloon on stage. I'm not in love with the leather that much". Also, as stated, Brian Epstein could never force anything on anyone, because the group never would have allowed it. John is said to have once told him, " You stick to your 10%" (referring to what the Beatles were paying him).
@@christophercruz8359 Yes, and why didn't The Beatles stop wearing suites when Brian died? They should have felt a big relief and gone back to the leather again. It was only fine years ago ...🙂
@@popgoesthe60s52 Ok, I see. But I'm not sure I ll go back and listen to the video till the end anyway. I think you always make good videos and I like you, but as I wrote, she seems to place a filter of emotions over everything. I may be wrong, but there's to much of such things theese days.
One of the most chilling parts of 'Get Back' is John's 'I've had a drink - remember Bob Wooller guys'.
She is nothing more than a Lennon apologist [and a very poor one at that]. For people here to compare her to Lewisohn is laughable.
As far as Sean just happening to be born on October 9th I'm not buying it. I suspect a bit more than just a coincidence.
Jude stated as much in this video! it was engineered for him to be born on the 9th - no real denial from the Lennons on that.
@@popgoesthe60s52 I find that extremely disturbing.
😐