Greg, thank you so much for having Jonathan on your show. I really like his approach to all of this. He is so kind but makes strong points. I hope other LDS influencers follow your lead and have more Heartlanders on shows. It is growing in the church for a reason and we need more voices talking about this in an intelligent manner as you two do so well. THANK YOU!
This information is what I was told by my now-deceased father. My grandfather was so disliked by his mother that when his father (my great-grandfather) was away from home for 6 months of the year, his father left him (and one of his brothers) with a Navajo family on the reservation. Initially, he was bullied and abused by the Navajo boys, but as he grew into a teen, he eventually earned respect and ultimately became a "storyteller", which I understand was a prestigious position in the tribe. The stories he told were from the Book of Mormon. At some point, people at the neighboring Hopi reservation got wind of his stories and they were furious that my grandfather was telling their sacred ancestral stories to the Navajo. They were so angry that for many years my grandfather had to be very careful not to let his identity be known if there were any Hopi around. His name, and that of his brother, essentially became swear words in the Hopi language. Back in the '90s, when my parents were serving a mission, my father encountered a Hopi man who confirmed that those names are still swear words in Hopi, although he didn't know why. I suspect that they discerned similarities in the story of Christ in the Americas and Pahana, the Lost White Brother.
I heard something similar, even that Hopi words in ceremonies and our words in the temple are the same. I was also told that Hopi believe they have the truth and someday they will share it with the world.
There are many parallels in the Navajo Traditional Teachings that can be found in the Book of Mormon and the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ. They immigrated from the east of modern day USA to the four corners region because the Holy people told them because of the wars going on 2,000 years ago.
One of the First books I brought after Joining the Church in 1986 was " In search of Cumorah" by David A. Palmer "New Evidence for the Book of Mormon from Ancient Mexico". I shared it with my friend, who is now a CES coordinator & teaches over the UK, Europe & parts of Africa for the Chuch. - As we discussed these two Cumorah's one day in our institute lesson, our institute teacher pulled out the Book of Mormon & recited scripture that the Hill was in the USA New york where Lehi & his family landed on the land of Liberty he also showed us some writings from Joseph Smith - saying in was here, in New York State - and he said the day would come when the earth would reveal the bones swords, breastplates used by the Jaridites, the Nephites & Lamanites - but first men have to exercise faith.
It would be interesting if those sources were properly pointed to. The Heartland model relies a whole lot on hearsay evidence. The Book of Mormon itself tells us that Zarahemla and Nephi were nearly surrounded by water, that Bountiful was north of Zarahemla and south of the narrow neck of land. Above that was the land of desolation where the Jaredites wiped themselves out. Note that most heartlanders place the narrow neck north west of cumorah
The Hopewell people lived there and in many places of the heartland. They had metal breastplates, headplates and swords. Not wooden pattals with volcanic glass tied to them. Its very interesting. I'll post a link to some great videos or a channel dedicated to this topic in a second reply.
@Mason Ponton even if you find metal breastplates and swords in the heartland, that doesn't prove book of Mormon events rook place there. The Book of Mormon makes it clear that after the battles that Captain Moroni fought in, there were massive migrations northward The Book of Mormon is clear based off the verses I already quoted that the land of Nephi and Zarahemla were nearly surrounded by water which disqualifies the heartland model. Pointing these facts out to heartlanders is a lot like pointing out the facts from the Bible to Evangelicals that the church fell into an apostasy and there was a need for a restoration rather than just a little reform. Everyone is attached to their own thinking and try to manipulate the text of scripture to their agenda rather than bending to the scripture as we should
Wow all I got to say is that the LDS people for over 190 years have never been able to muster enough faith to have those bones, swords & breastplates revealed. So far the prophets have failed miserably.
I'm a subscriber to the Heartland model. Wayne May convinced me. I can't wait to listen to this podcast... it wouldn't load for me in the car for some reason.
I actually ran a Twitter poll about this once. The Heartland model won. Ever since I started investigating the Church, I've always figured it makes the most sense for the Book of Mormon to have taken place in North America. I've never been convinced by the Mesoamerican model.
After many years of believing it took place in Mesoamerica I began taking the geography seriously and then discovered these other locations, especially the North American Heartland region. As more and more is brought forth and coming to light, the evidence is overwhelming. Culture, various evidences within teachings from the Book of Mormon, alters, burial practices of Algonquin and Cherokee tribes, DNA, artifacts, carbon dating and so many archaeological findings such as berms and wood wall ruins and remains all point to the Heartland region which is a much larger geographical area than the Mesoamerica model. Sometimes we over look how vast the eastern United States actually is when you're on foot. It took time for me because I had been conditioned for so long due to FARMS but I believe (almost to a sure knowledge) that it is indeed the Heartland.
Hey Greg, great interview! I know you’re planning on having Jonathan talk about the peep stone for the next video but I’m wondering if you would consider also Hannah Stoddard and the work the Joseph Smith Foundation has done on the matter? I have read several of their books on this subject from the Joseph Smith Foundation and think it’s right up your alley to delve into the translation etc with Hannah. Anyway, keep up the work and I’ve enjoyed your videos.
I grew up in the RLDS/CofC church in Ohio and went to church camp, which was called Camp Bountiful. I visited it a few years back and felt a more sacred feeling for the place that I didn't feel when I was younger. I have experienced much in the way of where I have lived that Heavenly Father has me see the importance of more so since I have joined The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.
I have been a Meso believer most of my life. I am grateful for people like Neville who have opened my eyes, as well as others. It doesn't matter where the Book of Mormon took place, but the deception that has taken place down through the years is unbelievable, and has led many people astray. The Heartland theory is definitely onboard with the Book of Mormon. Grateful for the truths taught in this amazing scripture. I wish a map had been used in this discussion.
I've read several books and watched many videos lately on the geography of the book of Mormon. By the end, this is what I figured out. It was this country that was founded to have the restoration possible. No other country in the Americas could have supported that.
20 years ago a man came through Beaver and spoke at the local opera house. He was espousing the heartland theory. I bought two books he brought. One was 'The Mystic Symbol' by Henriette Meyer. Henrietta was a non LDS. attorney that lived by Michigan. She collected artifacts from local farmers. Her collection of tablets was dismissed by the Smithsonian because it showed Creation and biblical carvings and themes. Great book! As a 17 year old who finally completed the Book of Mormon I prayed for confirmation. I didn't receive it immediately so I started to study Meso American archaeology. People said not to go to archaeology for my answer. I did and found many supports out of Meso America too. Of course I did receive my answer ultimately. Great interview! Enjoyed this man's perspective a lot.
It always made more sense to me that the BoM began in central America and as the Nephites migrated northward they settled parts of North America. I think most members can agree that the hill Cumorah in NY is the same hill that was spoken of by Moroni because that's where the plates were found.
Jonathan rocks! He's so logical. He's not argumentative but he knows how to argue (philosophically), IOW, contends without being the least bit contentious. I consider myself fairly diligent and studied in BoM, taught early morning seminary for 4 yrs, about a dozen yrs teaching Gospel Doctrine, I love teaching and the vast amount of study I get to do in class prep even though only about 20% can be presented/discussed in class. Anyway, I used to be mesoAmerican disciple. Jonathan's trial lawyer analysis of the data converted me to being much more inclined to the Heartland theory. But, like Jonathan, once you read what Joseph, Oliver, Lucy, and those who knew Joseph said, my firm conviction is there is one Cumorah and that's right where they said it is, Palmyra, NY. Stick a pin in the map for that. Then there are Joseph's letters to Emma about traversing the lands of the Nephites on Zion's Camp, Nephite altars in Adam Ondi Ahman, and also I think the verses in the BoM about the Gentiles and the Promised Land becoming the most powerful and prosperous, but then also falling. To me, that only refers to the US, not Guatemala or Mexico or some other southern hemisphere country. All that said, it's very interesting to study different ideas. We should do so with empathy for others and allow their ideas. Another thing, the BoM is to bring people to Christ. This is for all. One does not have to join the church to feel the spirit and love of Christ when they read that actual history and spiritual record of a people who actually lived and were visited by the Savior. It's not merely historical fiction IMO. If someone reads it honestly, they will feel the spirit like I said, and I leave it to the Spirit to help them find what to do about that. But it's a book for all Christians and people. It says so in the introduction. It doesn't then say join this church. People should not feel intimidated to read it. They shoukd just read it cause it testifies of Christ. For real. BTW, I have read several of his books, Letter VII, Moroni's America, A Man Who Can Translate, Between These Hills, and others. I recommend reading his books.
Interesting discussion. 1.Having just completed rereading Ether, it was clear to me that the millions lost in battle were over a sizable period of time, not some culmination battle. 2. The obvious advantage of the Meso model is the distances that appear to be traveled on foot between great seas. 3. To me an advantage of the Heartland model, besides Oliver's written account, have a lot to do with BOM prophesies about the freedom of the land of promise. That seems to jibe with the general history of the United States far more than the perpetually oppressed peoples south of the Rio Grande.
Any two people have similarities, the farther you get from the Hill Cumorah in New York, the more likely you will find tangential similarities. The fact that Hopewell-Adena lived a few hundred miles, not a few thousand, from the hill Cumorah is what makes the similarities significant.
Thank you so much for having this interview. Jonathon is a wealth of knowledge and has the proper attitude and spirit. It has always baffled me how the Meso-American promotors have discounted the word of Joseph and Oliver and leaned upon the their own learning. I can't wait for the episode dealing with the translation. I agree with Jonathan that these two issues have caused a great deal of damage to many peoples testimonies, or potential testimonies. Thank you for the links to Jonathan's information. I encourage people to learn more.
A fascinating episode! Thank you for this. I can't wait for part 2. I would love to hear explanation/theory of how the cities falling into the sea, and other geographical upheaval around the Savior's crucifixion falls into this framework. My guess has been that there are lost cities in the Caribbean.
I wondered that, too! One day I stumbled upon information about the New Madrid Fault Line. The descriptions of locals regarding what is called “The Forgotten Earthquakes of 1811 & 1812” provide parallels to what is mentioned in the Book of Mormon. When I came across the information from those Earthquakes I began to wonder and then found decades worth of parallels in the research from Wayne May and Rod Meldrum. I was dumbfounded that I’d never heard of the Heartland model before that! I should also mention that the sand blows discovered by geologists that study the New Madrid fault line, show that mega earthquakes regularly “pop off“ in that area every 300 to 500 years, including around the time of Christ.
My experience has been that the mesoamerica supporters are very critical and defensive where as the heartlanders are open to discussion. It reminds me of the current social issues like CRT, BLM, etc......think like we do or we will make you. The meso model never made sense to me since I was a kid, but I knew from the spirit that the Book of Mormon is true. When I came across the heartland model several ears ago, it just made me smile.
I was a teen and went to Seminary in the late 60s. Back then we were taught that Central America was the narrow neck of land. I remember looking at the map and thinking that if the Lamanites and Nephites did that much running around from South America to North America, it would be impossible to build the stuff they created and have families and a life. Then as an adult in the 80s, I read Sorenson's Meso America version. That made so much more sense to me. For the last ten years, I've learned about the Heartland model, which makes even more sense!
Exactly! Taking a class at CSUS about Native Americans in North America, my whole body felt on fire with the spirit of the Book of Mormon. It was hard to keep it to myself. Many years later I purchased a video done by BYU scholars and it taught the Pacific Ocean Meso-model. I never felt anything for it. Then I came across a video by Wayne May and that warm, joyful, excitement came back!
That Hill kamora is an upstate New York. It's not in South America. It never was in South America but scholars pinned their careers in that part of North America. They're wrong they don't want to admit it because they attach too much of their lives to that narrative. Did Christ appear to the people in Panama and? Northern South America and in Peru. You? Betty did they. Were? Part of the. Other people when he left the people around the hill kamora and the city of bountiful he says other people have I must I visit them also. There is evidence that even visited people in Japan or the Japanese islands. But many of the academics that BYU want to hold on to this bias attitude All the evidence plus historical written pieces within church history through the 1st presence of the church that existed during. During president Joseph Smith's time when they walked across the Americas in Zion's camp. Told you where the Heartland Are the ancient inhabitants of this land war? One of the best evidences of that is in the book of mormon where it Tells about the rejection of the gospel by certain people within the book. And that they follow migrating herbs to feed themselves by Following my grading herds. There was no migrating herds in south america of animals the only place that took places in north america
Thank you having Jonathan on and hope you have more discussion with him. Also, Wayne May and Rod Meldrum would be great to have on to. Willard Beans “Fighting Preacher” great Grandaughter to talk as well since her grandfather is the one who help get some of the land back. She has a book Willard Bean put together about the findings while living there such as large skulls, skipping arrows in the water, lots of good dirt with bone calcium by the hill Cumorah. Rod would know how to keep a hold of her.
I used to care a lot about finding Cumorah and proving the haters wrong! But then life got real and I stopped caring so much. My personal witnesses have been far more substantial than finding Cumorah would ever be.
You are correct, we should always focus on the doctrines and principals of the gospel first. But learning about this is also interesting too. I just get tired of the mesoamerica model accept as absolute truth and heartland model not even discussed as an option.
Really great presentation with this gentleman about the heartland model… I learned so much. I also was able to validate my hunch that book Mormon Central was bias great job looking forward to the next episode
Thanks for this, Greg! I have many of Jonathan's books. I do think the Heartland Model is the correct model for BOM geography. Brother Neville is very kind and I enjoy listening to him or reading his books. Thanks again.
A significant point to consider is how the people reckoned time. The people of MesoAmerica used a calendar based on the sun. However, the People of the Book of Mormon used a lunar calendar similar to the Isrealites. I can't recall which of the podcasts pointed this out or the Book of Mormon citations in support of this theory. The other point cited was the question of available animals for suitable sacrificial offerings.
It is great that you have Brother Neville on today. I have watched him several times on Mormon Book Reviews and really enjoy hearing his ideas and the way he presents those ideas. I first learned about the Heartland theory about seven or eight years ago when I came across Wayne May video on youtube. It sure makes sense to me.
also to the cumorah evidence, there was a newspaper article from that area and the early settlers and it stated that locals were collecting huge baskets filled with the artifacts of a great battle. i recall some bones were included.
This is so logical. Four years ago, when I read the Book of Mormon 3 Nephi 21:22 where Jesus said, "THIS LAND," I had a strong impression and yelled, "He is referring to the place where he was standing in North America, and not in Meso America!!!" That was before I knew anything about the Heartland model, I now have my own personal testimony. It is also my belief from my studies that the ruins in the Southern areas of the Americas are an attraction to many, including Wilford Woodruff. However, haven't they been dated from about nine hundred A.D.?
I think Johnathan Neville’s books are especially helpful to understanding the arguments on both sides. I was first convinced of Central America model when I watched the movie, “Ancient America Speaks”, in high school seminary. Seeing is believing. This gives eye candy to that model which was taught as theory at BYU when I was there. I was first introduced to the Heartland geo model from the TV mini series, “Hidden in the Heartland”, which I believe is still available… Anyway the Heartland model aligns with LDS history and BofM teachings about the history of THIS land from then to now…, first hand teachings of Joseph & Oliver, church history and even family traditions concerning the Hill Cumorah / BofM (my father’s Uncle Willard Bean) and the annual pageants where my mother performed as a missionary many decades ago. Each must find their own way but this is part of my faith tradition that I accept for many reasons! I love Johnathan Neville’s books! But my testimony in Christ and the scriptures especially the Book of Mormon.
I was there in 96 .I had good look around. I noticed that there was a ground monitoring station down the S side of the hill. I have seen them being used for underground mining. The sensor and coil were no longer operable. It was in an old wooden box. It's used to tell if someone is digging or drilling it gives off signal .
Robert E. Lee surveyed the Mississippi River and especially the land opposite Nauvoo and a bit upriver from there. He sounded the river at the rapids and the deepest spot was about 5 feet, with most of the river at the rapids being only a few feet deep. This is the only place where the armies of the Nephites could have waded across the Mississippi river to get behind the Lamanites. No other place on the whole Mississippi River could one wade across.
I remember Hugh Nibley saying in a documentary about him that as many times as he had been to Meso America area up and down he had never found any evidence that it was where the Book of Mormon took place. 🤔
As always Greg, I appreciate your willingness to engage with people and ideas that some might disagree with. I appreciate Jonathon's perspective, and that he emphasizes that this isn't nearly as important as the contents of the Book of Mormon and it's teachings, but personally, I don't find Jonathan's arguments to be compelling. One specific critique comes @16:45, where he said that "The text doesn't refer to the Americas". To me, 1 Nephi 13:12 is a clear contradiction to this assertion. "And I looked and beheld a man among the Gentiles, who was separated from the seed of my brethren by the many waters; and I beheld the Spirit of God, that it came down and wrought upon the man; and he went forth upon the many waters, even unto the seed of my brethren, who were in the promised land." The chapter heading (and to my knowledge, every member of the Church) understands this passage to be talking about "the discovery and colonizing of America", so I don't know where Jonathan lands on this, or if it was just a misstatement. Anyway, I appreciate hearing different perspectives, but I found the arguments put forward to be lacking.
If I could speak for Jonathan, I think he would say that it does not specifically say "America" and that you (and others, myself included) are interpreting that text to say America. If you look at the text, it is actually vague. Someone could read into that whatever they want. I do have to say, even when I believed the Meso Model, every time I would read that part of the Book of Mormon, I always thought of the United States and not Guatemala. The US is the Promised Land.
@@jeffwhipple2658 And I can respect that different people can interpret that differently - I feel like this specific scripture and the greater topic is one where reasonable minds can differ, and I'm fine with that. I just don't put a lot of stock into Jonathan's arguments, as in this specific instance he doesn't seem to leave the door open for a widely accepted interpretation of this scripture. If he was more reasonable about things like this, it would make his argument stronger in my eyes. But that's just me.
What an incredible podcast. I live in East Tennessee, and I'm blown away about his theory of the land of nephi being in Tennessee. I would love to hear more about the Chattanooga area. Is there more info about this you could share?
The fields near the hill Cumorah were plowed a few hundred years ago. Tree were lacking in the area. The ground was white from phosphorus. Large mounds were found and many skeletons were heaped into them. Large amount of axe,arrow spear points found. Enough to fill many barrels. According to early farmers
Interesting conversation! While not a gospel topic that is necessarily pertinent to our salvation, I still find it so interesting and intriguing. Having studied both points of view, I can say that I used to be on the Mesoamerican model side. However, only last year I started moving pretty strongly over to the Heartland model side. Both theories have their merits, and I’ll be excited when it truly comes to light where exactly it all happened. What matters though is that it did. Christ manifested Himself to these “other sheep” as well as others of the lost tribes of Israel and the record we have, known as the Book of Mormon, is such a powerful witness of that.
King Mosiah doesn’t go a river journey to get Zarahemla. He goes up around and down. He probably made a big end run around Ohio through Pennsylvania and along the Great Lakes until he got near South Bend Indiana and down the Kankakee, the Illinois and onto the Mississippi to the Chain of Rocks across the river and into Zarahemla.
@@anthonyrippa686 The Nephites built their buildings with wood, and their fortifications were largely earth and wood. The only other material mentioned for buildings was cement, which was only used until they could obtain timber. Stone walls are mentioned briefly, but earth mounds and pickets were clearly the main way to defend a city. "Cement highways" are never mentioned in the BoM, so I'm not sure where you're getting that. Everything about their traveling is subjective. How north was "northward"? How south was "southward"? How far was an "exceedingly great distance"? There is no objective way to determine these things. And given that they were ancient people without modern transportation, what they thought of as "far" was probably not as far as what we think of.
@@anthonyrippa686 I was born and raised in Southern Ohio and have had the privilege of exploring the land and mounds. There are many evidences of cement and ancient land removal that seem to match with events in The Book of Mormon, along with the aforementioned mounds.
@@anthonyrippa686 We don't know how extensive the cement use was. The BoM says they also lived in tents during that time. Cement was used only until timber could be acquired. Timber appears to be the desired building material: "they did suffer whatsoever tree should spring up upon the face of the land that it should grow up, that in time they might have timber to build their houses, yea, their cities, and their temples, and their synagogues, and their sanctuaries, and all manner of their buildings." They wanted timber so badly that they "did send forth much by the way of shipping." So again, how much they actually used cement is unknown (and it was only in the land northward). This cement period also took place before the destructions in 3 Nephi, which may have destroyed many of the cement structures.
The area between Buffalo and Palmyra is roughly 300 miles Sq. Soper and Squire the early antiquarian figured there were some 1200 fortified hill redouts. This was mortal combat, the final stand of about 3oo ooo souls.
Howard W Hunter was a proponent of the Hill Cumorah (where the final battles took place) in MesoAmerica. This is what opened my mind initially to there being two Cumorahs - one in MesoAmerica and one in New York State.
A detailed reading of the book of mormon will get you to that conclusion, Joseph Smith didn't originally refer to the hill in new york as Cumorah, it was Oliver Cowdery who started that, by 1842, in D&C Joseph Smith uses the word Cumorah, but at that time the idea had already been cemented in church culture.
Keep looking into the Heartland Model and you will find that it fits better than the Meso Model. I was skeptical at first but after going down the rabbit hole, the Heartland Model makes the most sense. Promised Land, Law of Moses, and so many other reasons.
@@carlosjosejimenezbermudez9255 If you watch the video, Jonathan covers this. He said that Joseph knew the name Cumorah before he got the plates, according to his mother Lucy Smith. Jospeh was learning first hand about the history of the BofM people straight from the source, angels that visited him. Joseph would then teach his family about what he had learned, kind of like FHE style. The family would love to sit and listen to Joseph talk all about what he learned. This was all BEFORE getting the plates. He was being prepared to translate the BofM by first getting to understand the people and their culture.
@@carlosjosejimenezbermudez9255 You are describing the narrative that RLDS scholars Stebbins and Hills started in the late 1800s, which Jack Welch has picked up and promoted, but that narrative contradicts the historical record. Re-read Lucy Mack Smith's history and the other sources available at the lettervii dot com site.
If you read the church history series you find that the hill actually opened and they went inside discovering an entire repository of documents. There was also a table upon which was the sword. Condensed version
I tend to lean towards the heartland model, but I acknowledge there are difficulties with each model. I do think that some of the criticisms of the heartland model, like “the Great Lakes are too small to be seas” are dismissed when there are valid responses to these criticisms. Using the example I mentioned, we have no problem with the Sea of Galilee or the Dead Sea or even the Caspian Sea, but because we have call the Great Lakes “lakes” in English, we somehow conclude that the Nephites would not have called them seas, so seas must refer to the ocean.
Lehi and his family gathered the harvest and loaded the boat on the SE Arabian peninsula and the sailing time around Africa would be the perfect time to land in Florida and plant their seeds, as it says they did in the B of M.
The Prophet Joseph Smith’s statement that they were, “wandering over the plains of the Nephites, recounting occasionally the history of the Book of Mormon, roving over the mounds of that once beloved people of the Lord, picking up their skulls & their bones, as a proof of its divine authenticity,” then through revelation that “Zelph … was a warrior and a Chieftain under the great prophet Onandagus,” is providing essential physical evidence that the Nephites and the Lamanites resided in America’s Heartland. That physical evidence, combined with a spiritual testimony, transforms one’s faith into a perfect sure knowledge. Jesus did the same after His resurrection when He invites those to feel the prints in His hands and feet, etc. Gaining a physical body makes us complete - having only a spiritual body is not part of the Plan of Salvation. In like manner a physical witness that the Nephites were in North America is being solidified by the Prophet Joseph. Those in the Zion's Camp already had a spiritual witness. Joseph was then providing them with physical evidence that the Book of Mormon is true and that the people actually lived where they were "roving."
Heber also visited the site after he joined the Church in April 1832. He wrote, "The hill Cumorah is a high hill for that country, and had the appearance of a fortification or entrenchment around it." When he was 14 years old, Kimball worked in his father's blacksmith shop in the Bloomfield area west of Canandaigua and east of Avon. His observations of the area are quoted in his biography, Life of Heber C. Kimball, on p. 25 (or p. 50, depending on the edition): "From the time Father Bosley located near Avon, he found and plowed up axes and irons, and had sufficient to make his mill irons, and had always abundance of iron on hand without purchasing. "In the towns of Bloomfield, Victor, Manchester, and in the regions round about, there were hills upon the tops of which were entrenchments and fortifications, and in them were human bones, axes, tomahawks, points of arrows, beads and pipes, which were frequently found; and it was a common occurrence in the country to plow up axes, which I have done many times myself. "I have visited the fortifications on the tops of those hills frequently, and the one near Bloomfield I have crossed hundreds of times, which is on the bluff of Honeyoye River, and the outlet of Honeyoye Lake.... "The hill Cumorah is a high hill for that country, and had the appearance of a fortification or entrenchment around it. In the State of New York, probably there are hundreds of these fortifications which are now visible, and I have seen them in many other parts of the United States." Heber's biographer, Elder Orson F. Whitney of the Quorum of the Twelve, commented "Readers of the Book of Mormon will remember that in this very region, according to that sacred record, the final battles were fought between the Nephites and Lamanites. At the hill Cumorah, the Nephites made their last stand prior to their utter extermination, A.D., 385. "Thus was Heber preaching the Gospel to the Gentiles, above the graves of the ancients of Israel, whose records with the fullness of that Gospel, and the relics of their prowess and civilization, were now 'whispering from the dust.'" archive.org/details/LifeOfHeberC.Kimball/page/n49/mode/2up?q=Cumorah
The fact that the church's name and "brand" is on the "SAINTS" book is why the members defer to it so readily. For years I believed that if it had the church's name on it that that meant that it would have been carefully approved or edited by the brethren before release. Knowing what I know now about the church history department I understand why that is not the case. It doesn't change anything about the gospel or it's truth, but instead adds further testimony to what Pres. Nelson and the brethren have been trying to teach us these last few years: GET THE SPIRIT OR PERISH! We can't trust in brand names anymore, even the one that bears the Lord's name. We have to trust solely in HIS gospel and in the Holy Ghost.
Academia kills me. They put themselves on a pedestal like no other I feel. So Joseph, who was tutored by an Angel was wrong and they, who are tutored by men and their own research and deduction are right. Thanks but I’ll place my trust in an Angel who communes with Jehovah. I love this guy! He’s great! Thanks for having him on!
@@robynmills5534 Excellent! Indeed, Joseph was well tutored, by many Angels and visions regarding the Book of Mormon, Joseph truly is the one qualified mortal expert on the Book of Mormon. Everyone else (in mortality) including Oliver, would be secondary to Joseph's opinion. Correct, Joseph's knowledge and expertise of the Book of Mormon, does far exceed the opinion of any earthly scholar or run-of-the-mill non-scholar researchers such as Mr. Neville in this video?
Perhaps what Joseph believed would be of interest to you. The Church's main focus and mission is to proclaim and teach the Gospel of Christ; BOM & Biblical geography are not topics the Church dwells on, thus many latter-day saints are unaware Joseph claimed and declared Zarahemla was in Central America; he even put it in writing and published it. If you're interested in historical facts, google - Times and Seasons October 1, 1842 Zarahemla. Joseph as Editor, along with his assistant editors, Apostles John Taylor & Wilford Woodruff (both of whom would become presidents of the Church), boldly declare as an "important fact" - Zarahemla was in Central America, in the land of Guatemala. To substantiate the claim and declaration, Joseph, being very familiar with the details of the BOM, quotes and rehearses Alma 22 describing the region where Zarahemla was. This is what Joseph felt and believed, and he printed it in the Church's Times and Seasons paper, there's no hearsay about it. True story look it up. The editors then went on to clarify, they weren't declaring an exact or specific city mentioned in an explorer's book, they had previously named and discussed in a previous edition of the T&S as the city of Zarahemla. They didn't feel impressed to declare that specific city Zarahemla, only that Zarahemla was somewhere in Central America. However, they (Joseph, John, & Wilford) are of the opinion that the previously named city, was a city of the Book of Mormon, just not Zarahemla. Read the T&S article for the details. Keep in mind, this secondary clarification of a specific city previously named as not being Zarahemla, does not dissolve the declared important fact, that Zarahemla was in Central America. The important fact of Zarahemla being in Central America collaborates with the BOM narrative. You either trust Joseph or you don't. To attempt to speculate this declaration away is futile. Also, know, in the same T&S Oct 1, 1842 edition, the editors (Joseph, John, & Wilford) refute the conspiring claims, suggesting Joseph had fled the area of Nauvoo and is on the run. Truth is, Joseph was still in the area and still very much editor of what was printed in the T&S Oct 1, 1842; while at the same time avoiding false arrest of conspiring men. Read the full edition, Joseph was still around and still very much in charge, as represented & substantiated by the T&S article itself. So a very special thanks to the editors(Joseph, John, & Wilford), for documenting this conspiracy so long ago and clearing it up for future generations. Keep in mind, earlier that year, when Joseph took over as editor of the T&S, he declared, and assured the readers, that he alone would be responsible for what was printed in the T&S while he was editor. Joseph was Editor until November 15, 1842, a full six weeks after Joseph makes the declaration that Zarahemla is in Central America; at which time Joseph steps aside as Editor and appoints John Taylor as the new Editor of the Times and Season. Logic and common sense dictate if John Taylor had published the Zarahemla claim on his own, without Joseph's knowledge and consent, and if Joseph didn't agree with it; would Joseph have promoted John to Editor six weeks after such declaration?? The thought makes reason stare. Further, "if" Joseph didn't oversee the publication of the October 1, 1842 edition, and he disagreed with the bold declaration, know this, Joseph would have had it retracted, as he assured his readers he was responsible. Joseph never had it retracted. Truth is, Joseph is the one who published it; Joseph was Editor and owns the declaration, Zarahemla is in Central America. You either trust Joseph or you don't. Next, go to the Church's website and search - 'Book of Mormon Geography'. Notice, the church takes no stance on the exact location of BOM cities, because no exact locations have been revealed. However, in the same statement on the Church's website, the Church does acknowledge Joseph's beliefs on the subject, and further confirms and substantiates Joseph as Editor of the Times & Seasons in 1842 for the articles referring to Book of Mormon lands and Central America (aka Mesoamerica). Very interesting indeed. Kinda clears up any speculation. Joseph, states Zarahemla is in Central America, within the borders of Guatemala, as he would have known it on the maps of his day. For additional & interesting collaboration on what Joseph would have known Guatemala to be in his day, google - "map of Guatemala 1825" (or 1835, it doesn't matter) open a properly labeled map and notice Guatemala's borders back in Joseph's day extended as far north to include the Chiapas & Palenque areas of modern-day Mexico. Say what! A very interesting area indeed! Long before any scholar pronounce their own theory as to the location of the land of Zarahemla, Joseph had already declared it to be Central America. No scholars or theories needed to narrow down the general area, Joseph did it for us. All things considered, it all fits. With Zarahemla being in Central America, does the BOM narrative accommodate Joseph's claims of "walking the plains of the Nephites" and the Zelph stories? Could both be accurate and plausible? Yes, in fact, these stories actually collaborate with the BOM narrative precisely with no contradiction. Alma 63 and Helaman 3:3-5,12-16 states many groups of Nephites left the land of Zarahemla & Bountiful and migrated to the north country, both by land and by sea. This also accounts for how a Zelph-type character and other descendants of converted Lamanites were in the northern country during the last struggles. Remember these Nephites departed FROM the lands of Zarahenla and Bountiful sailing across a sea. Also note, there is a sea, not just land, between Zarahemla and the land of a New Jerusalem in the north country. So yes, there are plains of Nephites in the heartland of the north country, There are no contradictions by Joseph, and no mental gymnastics are required. There are even statements in the BOM narrative that signal there was commerce trade happening between the Nephites in the land of Zarahemla/Bountiful and the migrant Nephites groups in the north country. It's all in the book. The book itself, says we will find evidence of Nephite cultures in the heartland of North America; only the evidence found is that of other Nephite groups that left the lands of Zarahemla & Bountiful where the prophets Nephi through Mormon dwelt, which is in Central America. No academics or scholars are needed to locate the region of the continent where the city of Zarahemla was; Joseph already took care of it in 1842; it's in Central America. After studying the Book of Mormon and all of Joseph's statements, I agree with Joseph; Zarahemla is somewhere in Central America. I'm certainly not going with the opinion of a guy selling books based upon uninspired, inaccurate, secondhand letters of Oliver. Oliver couldn't even keep the timeline of the first vision and Moroni visit straight, as he conflates them into one event. Joseph had to have Oliver retract the mistake, which Oliver does in the next letter (which demonstrates Joseph didn't actually dictate or help write the letters in the first place, as Mr. Neville insinuates. Oliver made the mistake on his own, and Joseph corrected it after the letter was written). However, to this day, anti-Mormons use Oliver's debacle as evidence it's a made-up story, that the story evolved, and that they couldn't keep their story straight. In another inaccurate Oliver letter, Oliver places himself as equal to Joseph in place of authority, referring to Joseph as "one" of the presidents of the Church, hello, Joseph was the President, and Oliver was only an assistant, there's a big difference. Joseph realizes Oliver was inept with the task of accurately writing the history; Joseph removes Oliver from writing the history and calls someone else to do it. Oliver lets his ego rule his emotions, continues to falter, and is excommunicated for dissension and sedition. Sad, but true. The Oliver letters are inaccurate, full of mis & disinformation, and of no or very little worth in the correct history of Joseph, the Church, and the Book of Mormon. All things considered, it all adds up and fits; I'm going with Joseph on this one, Zarahemla is in Central America; you either trust him or you don't. The Book of Mormon is correct and true! Take care now!
I am sure that for the most part the Scholars are well meaning and have done a lot of good, but when they have to down play the words of the Prophet to make their theories valid I have a hard time giving their theories much validity. It always makes me think of the fact that the Savior himself had to fight the teachings of the Scholars of His day and that they were the ones who, though many were probably well meaning, had Him crucified.
I've always been confused when seeing things saying the events of the Book of Mormon took place in central America/south America. It makes so much more sense to be in North America. I haven't watched the entire video yet so I'm not sure if this was mentioned but the Book of Mormon even mentions snow! Epic video!
These speculations are just rabbit holes that take our focus off the point of The Book of Mormon. I really don't know why so many are fixated on locating the places in the BoM.
I think Mormon was trying to find the best place to give the Lamanites battle. The finger lakes would be strategic ground. The highest point of withdrawal would be to the highest ground of the largest Drummond hill, Cumorh. The hill would be best place to hide all records.
Been to both places, in Central America and the heartland. Was there before the question of where BOM geography took place. Wondered why at the time I never “felt” an impression in Central America, where as I could never shake the impressions in the heartland, for years and years. Nobody has to prove anything to me, I know where it all happened. Look for added faith in personal revelation, you will not be misled with your righteous desire. 1:04:10
I served my mission in Central America and visited Copan Honduras three times, Tikal, and ruins in Yucatán. My experience exactly. The heartland rings true. I get cognitive dissidence in considering Mesoamerica.
“therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni.” It surprised me too, when I read that more carefully. The abridgment was not hidden in the original Cumorah, not according to scripture at least. Nobody should base their testimony on a geographical model in either case.
@@CwicShow He never gives a name of where he hid them, he only says he will write and then hide them in the earth. Mormon 8:4 "Therefore I will write and hide up the records in the earth". We know from his updates, he wandered for 30-36 years and continued to write updates as he wandered, before hiding them in the earth in up state NY. He never references the name of where he hid them, as Cumorah; not in the BOM and never to Joseph as recorded in Joseph's history, canonized in the Pearl of Great Price. Moroni never referred to the hill, where he buried the plates, as Cumorah. He met with Joseph many, many times for years and never once referred to it as Cumorah. Joseph never mentions Moroni mentioning the name of the hill where he got the plates. In Joseph's history, he names off all the scriptures, places, events, and previous prophets, Moroni mentioned during his visits, surely Moroni knows the name of the hill he knew as Cumorah. Moroni names everything else; why would he not refer to this hill by name?? Because the hill where he buried the plates in, he didn't know by name; he was led to it by the spirit after having wandered for 30+ years, so the plates would be in a constitutionally free country and where Joseph's family would be. Remember, Mormon gave the plates to Moroni at Cumorah and instructed Moroni to am-scram to protect the plates. Moroni carried the plates away from Cumorah, he didn't bury them in Cumorah. Also, keep in mind, Joseph wasn't the one who started calling the hill, Cumorah; other saints did. Nowhere in the BOM or Joseph's history does Joseph or Moroni, ever call the hill in NY, Cumorah. It was Oliver Cowdery and other saints, who first called the hill in NY Cumorah, not Joseph, not Moroni. Realize, it is common practice for people to name places after other places. Much like the Saints who settled Utah, naming the predominant mountain South of Utah Lake, Mt. Nebo; it doesn't mean it's the same Mt. Nebo Moses stood upon overlooking the promised land. Or that the City of Bountiful north of Salt Lake City, is the City of Bountiful mentioned in the Book of Mormon. Good grief. It's an honorary name that became the common vernacular by the Saints to reference the hill where Joseph received the plates; they had to call the hill something in conversation. In Joseph's history written in 1838, years after the saints had been calling the hill in NY, the Hill Cumorah, Joseph still doesn't refer to the hill as Cumorah in his history, he has it recorded as "a hill of considerable size", even though by this time, it had become the nomenclature of the saints to refer to the hill, where he got the plates, as Cumorah. The name Cumorah is mentioned in the Book of Mormon as where Moroni received the plates from his father, if the hill in NY is the real BOM Cumorah, the one where Mormon buried all the records, why would Joseph go out of his way to not have the "actual" known name of the hill referenced in his history?? Because both Joseph and Moroni, knew it was not the same hill Mormon was at; accuracy matters for the recorded history. Again, the NY hill was first referred to as Cumorah, by other Ladder-day Saints, not Moroni nor Joseph. Once, the saint had adopted calling the hill in NY, Cumorah, Joseph was fine with the endearing and honorary name, of calling the hill Cumorah in conversations himself, as that's what the saints were used to, as identifying the hill where he received the plates. Thus there is the original BOM Cumorah, which Mormon and Moroni knew, and also an honorary Hill Cumorah in NY, named by the saints.
Wow, two of my faves!! I love Jonathan Neville!! He just makes so much sense to me. I agree this debate has gotten out of hand and I wish they could just put on debates and just put it all on the table. I do agree that so much of this seems to attract the political sides as well. I admit to being on the right conservative traditionalist side. The thing is that both you and Neville say you’re independent politically, at least you do, but the majority of the topics you speak about is going after the progressive poison that’s within the Church. I just wish we could point that out more, but like you said we are in a spiral of silence and the thin skinned membership just can’t handle the tough debates anymore. Let’s just figure out the truth together wherever it leads. Thanks for this show.... you should get Rod Meldrum on too as well as Hannah Stoddard who is of their ilk. Love them all.
I really enjoyed this and I'm open to it being in either place although I do lean toward the heartland theory. I had no idea there was such a controversy.
Long before I ever heard of the Heartland Model or Rod Meldrum, I read an interesting book Christ in North America by Delbert Curtis. Quite eye opening. Recommended reading for those who have an open mind.
Thanks Greg for this interview! It was really fascinating and I am open to both opinions. It’s interesting that if we believe in the miraculous event of the hill Cumorah opening up and Joseph and Oliver entering into an ancient repository (And I do believe it) then isn’t it plausible that the cave could be anywhere and one of the entrances is located in Cumorah NY? Just something that I am pondering about - thank you again Greg!
Hi, there was a "room" discovered in the Hill Cumorah in about 2004 or 5. Located about 1/2 way down the high west side. I know one of the people who saw the opening after a young child fell through the "ground" into the room or cave. it was roughly 16 ft square and perhaps 10 feet deep. Made of dry stack stones. Several photos were taken and I have seen the photos and spoken with other eyewitnesses. The Church facilities covered the whole the next day and it has not been explored to my knowledge.
I have a question about the hill Shiloh. Where is the reference that says Mosiah stopped there to get the Brass Plates? In the Book of Omni where the move to Zarahemla happens, it only says that "Zarahemla did rejoice exceedingly, because the Lord had sent the people of Mosiah with the plates of brass which contained the record of the Jews." (Omni verse 14)
1st Nephi 6:5 explains why the text isn't reliable as a your geographic basis. Joseph, who had personal interaction with resurrected writers of the BoM, and Oliver are the source I trust.
I have thought that the reason that the Central American concept has been pushed by the scholars is that the church growth in central and South America was so fast and based on the premise that “your ancestors were the Nephites and Lamanites”that they dared not do an about face. I’m a convert of 48 years. I asked the missionaries why would the church say it happened in Central America but yet the plates were in NY. They didn’t have an answer. It didn’t matter because I already knew the Book of Mormon was the word of God when I called them to come teach me.
We learn in Mormon 4:23 that the Lamanites were about to overthrow the land, so Mormon took up the records hidden in the hill Shim. Since that point Mormon kept the records even during the time of the Nephites retreat. That retreat began about ten years before the final battle. So realistically that is plenty of time for the records to be moved from central America to NY to be buried by Moroni. But we also need to remember that the final burial of the plates occurred in 421 AD while the final battle occurred in 385 AD.
I first heard about the book of Mormon geography debate in 2008 when I read prophecies and promises by Meldrum and Porter. I have studied it in great depth since then. The heartland model is the only model that makes sense. Wayne May, Jonathan Neville, Bruce Porter and Rod Meldrum have done an excellent job in bringing to light all of this information. I am grateful for their research and helping me understand clearly the truth of book of Mormon geography. First and foremost I have a Spiritual testimony of the book of Mormon. However a testimony of its actual geography bolsters my spiritual testimony.
When I first read about the "Heartland" model, it immediately rang true to me. I met Rod Meldrum at Costco and got his book (Exploring the Book of Mormon in America's Heartland) there. One of the main things he brought out was the DNA evidence -- the only native American DNA that has Jewish origins is in the Algonquin tribes in the Northeast of THIS country. That is really cool to me! But the books on the Heartland model present so MUCH evidence, and comparatively, the evidence for the meso-American model is much weaker.
We need to place trust in Joseph, Oliver, etc. and not academics or apologists who have tinkered with the narrative. I find the original inspired narrative much more faith promoting and inspirational.
I have no problem with either model, its harder to understand that Garden of Eden is in Missouri, but we believe Joseph on that, so why not believe him on the heartland model as well
There is a lot of evidence that the land before the flood at Noah's time was basically one continent. The secular scientist call it Pangea. When you put the continents back together it makes it much easier to see that the Garden was located where Joseph said. Answers in Genesis is a great Christian organization that has wonderful UA-cam videos that explain this. They don't talk about Joseph's revelations of course, but great scientific based information anyway.
The first point that matters most is that Joseph Smith WAS not just a prophet but a seer who saw things through the Urim and Thummin and through visions. That means that he saw events in the Book of Mormon and knew for a certainty where they were. He talked with Moroni who lived there. There was no doubt that he knew where he uncovered the plates, near his home. Any opinion by men who discount this is their opinion only and have no faith in Joseph Smith. I don't trust those who undermine our first prophet and seer.
Modern LDS scholars are moving away from literal belief in the Scriptures to a more symbolic representation which enables them to have a wider scope of expression. This expression can be seen in academics scoffing and negation of the more literal expression of Scripture by earlier General Authorities. I wonder where all this is heading and fully understand why our prophets are warning us about the need to depend on the Holy Ghost for truth and not man in the latter days. Thanks to 'Cwic' for allowing our minds to evaluate the conditions that are continually before us.
He keeps saying the meso-America crowd say that Joseph and Oliver were wrong. I don't think they would use that word. Mistaken would be a better term. I think people, even prophets, are allowed to have innocuous presumptions that turn out to be mistaken. Jonathan seems to be promoting an infallibility viewpoint that is not realistic.
I would like for you to have Tyler Griffin on to talk specifically about BoM geography, to have another point of view presented. Where is the depository of the rest of the Nephite records if that is indeed THE Hill Cumorah in NY? Moroni mentions Cumorah but never said he was burying the plates in Cumorah. He only said that the remaining Nephites fled, were hunted and killed until it was only Moroni left. He then said "I will write and hide up the records in the earth; and whither I go it mattereth not." Moroni seems to indicate that he had wandered the land and would hide the plates when the time was right. Keep in mind he said this 15 years AFTER the battle of Cumorah, so he has already been traveling all that time away from the Lamanites (Mormon 8). Moroni 10 was written another 20 years after Mormon 8. That's 35 years of wandering, and one would think he certainly would not end up deep in the Lamanite lands again. He knew the hill Cumorah (it was written by name by his father Mormon) so it is logical that he would specifically name the location for hiding the plates in Hill Cumorah if he indeed did so. 1 Nephi 13:12. We know this is specifically Columbus that is mentioned by Nephi, and Columbus "went forth upon the many waters, even unto the seed of my brethren, who were in the promised land." Columbus never touched the lands of the United States. His voyages were to the Caribbean Islands, Venezuela and the central American coast areas of Honduras, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, and Panama, and interactive with the natives of those lands.
@@CwicShow No clue, but it would be awesome if he did, even if geography was only a small part of what would be discussed. I enjoy his and Taylor's videos each week.
Long before I was introduced to the scholars at FAIR I did my own research and determined for myself that the Book of Mormon took place in Meso-America. I even determined that it was the Maya who represented both Nephite and Lamanite based on my research. Of course Moroni eventually got to New York because that was where the plates were finally buried, but he had almost 40 years to get there so thier final location is not a reliable way to determine where the Book of Mormon took place.
@David Read or could it be that before the crucifixion where the landscape was changed, earth heavings, cataclysmic quakes etc there might have been a large channel emptying into the Pacific Ocean?
Another important point: I didn't hear a discussion of the "Zelph problem" (I did step away for a minute so perhaps it was discussed). Does accepting the Meso model exclusively mean that the Zelph story would have to be a fabrication? How does it fit in?
I don't think so, Zelph was a Lamanite warrior per Joseph Smith. He could have lived hundreds of years after the Book of Mormon and still be a Lamanite even if his people had migrated over time. That's just my understanding of how it is explained
I am an open book to either of these theories. One big question I can’t find an answer to in the New York theory is the winter issue. Why would Mormon leave out any mention of cold weather? Because it’s cold up there. Really cold!!
The Meso-America scholarship unwittingly bent to pressure from Academia and Archeologists that always have said, there is no evidence of the kind of structures and population to validate the BOM claims. That isn’t true anymore. There is cosmology including the Hopewell airburst, comet effigy’s, peculiar earthworks and hundreds++ of sites. Evidence of widespread cataclysm and large populations. However the Yucatán peninsula is also underestimated in how developed it was. One thing is clear, that artifacts from both locations are showing that trade and travel is also something that we underestimate. We have a post modern psychosis and don’t understand what could be achieved in the given time that they had.
Greg, thank you so much for having Jonathan on your show. I really like his approach to all of this. He is so kind but makes strong points. I hope other LDS influencers follow your lead and have more Heartlanders on shows. It is growing in the church for a reason and we need more voices talking about this in an intelligent manner as you two do so well. THANK YOU!
You’re welcome
This information is what I was told by my now-deceased father. My grandfather was so disliked by his mother that when his father (my great-grandfather) was away from home for 6 months of the year, his father left him (and one of his brothers) with a Navajo family on the reservation. Initially, he was bullied and abused by the Navajo boys, but as he grew into a teen, he eventually earned respect and ultimately became a "storyteller", which I understand was a prestigious position in the tribe. The stories he told were from the Book of Mormon. At some point, people at the neighboring Hopi reservation got wind of his stories and they were furious that my grandfather was telling their sacred ancestral stories to the Navajo. They were so angry that for many years my grandfather had to be very careful not to let his identity be known if there were any Hopi around. His name, and that of his brother, essentially became swear words in the Hopi language. Back in the '90s, when my parents were serving a mission, my father encountered a Hopi man who confirmed that those names are still swear words in Hopi, although he didn't know why. I suspect that they discerned similarities in the story of Christ in the Americas and Pahana, the Lost White Brother.
Thank u for sharing your remarkable history.
I heard something similar, even that Hopi words in ceremonies and our words in the temple are the same. I was also told that Hopi believe they have the truth and someday they will share it with the world.
There are many parallels in the Navajo Traditional Teachings that can be found in the Book of Mormon and the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ. They immigrated from the east of modern day USA to the four corners region because the Holy people told them because of the wars going on 2,000 years ago.
Now if we could just get the dna evidence
One of the First books I brought after Joining the Church in 1986 was " In search of Cumorah" by David A. Palmer "New Evidence for the Book of Mormon from Ancient Mexico". I shared it with my friend, who is now a CES coordinator & teaches over the UK, Europe & parts of Africa for the Chuch. - As we discussed these two Cumorah's one day in our institute lesson, our institute teacher pulled out the Book of Mormon & recited scripture that the Hill was in the USA New york where Lehi & his family landed on the land of Liberty he also showed us some writings from Joseph Smith - saying in was here, in New York State - and he said the day would come when the earth would reveal the bones swords, breastplates used by the Jaridites, the Nephites & Lamanites - but first men have to exercise faith.
It would be interesting if those sources were properly pointed to. The Heartland model relies a whole lot on hearsay evidence. The Book of Mormon itself tells us that Zarahemla and Nephi were nearly surrounded by water, that Bountiful was north of Zarahemla and south of the narrow neck of land. Above that was the land of desolation where the Jaredites wiped themselves out. Note that most heartlanders place the narrow neck north west of cumorah
BofM also says that there were massive changes to the landscape at the coming of Christ. We don’t have any geography descriptions after that time.
The Hopewell people lived there and in many places of the heartland. They had metal breastplates, headplates and swords. Not wooden pattals with volcanic glass tied to them. Its very interesting. I'll post a link to some great videos or a channel dedicated to this topic in a second reply.
@Mason Ponton even if you find metal breastplates and swords in the heartland, that doesn't prove book of Mormon events rook place there. The Book of Mormon makes it clear that after the battles that Captain Moroni fought in, there were massive migrations northward
The Book of Mormon is clear based off the verses I already quoted that the land of Nephi and Zarahemla were nearly surrounded by water which disqualifies the heartland model. Pointing these facts out to heartlanders is a lot like pointing out the facts from the Bible to Evangelicals that the church fell into an apostasy and there was a need for a restoration rather than just a little reform. Everyone is attached to their own thinking and try to manipulate the text of scripture to their agenda rather than bending to the scripture as we should
Wow all I got to say is that the LDS people for over 190 years have never been able to muster enough faith to have those bones, swords & breastplates revealed. So far the prophets have failed miserably.
Thank you for exploring all sides Greg!
I'm a subscriber to the Heartland model. Wayne May convinced me. I can't wait to listen to this podcast... it wouldn't load for me in the car for some reason.
I actually ran a Twitter poll about this once. The Heartland model won.
Ever since I started investigating the Church, I've always figured it makes the most sense for the Book of Mormon to have taken place in North America. I've never been convinced by the Mesoamerican model.
After many years of believing it took place in Mesoamerica I began taking the geography seriously and then discovered these other locations, especially the North American Heartland region. As more and more is brought forth and coming to light, the evidence is overwhelming. Culture, various evidences within teachings from the Book of Mormon, alters, burial practices of Algonquin and Cherokee tribes, DNA, artifacts, carbon dating and so many archaeological findings such as berms and wood wall ruins and remains all point to the Heartland region which is a much larger geographical area than the Mesoamerica model. Sometimes we over look how vast the eastern United States actually is when you're on foot. It took time for me because I had been conditioned for so long due to FARMS but I believe (almost to a sure knowledge) that it is indeed the Heartland.
You had me at "Twitter poll."
Mesoamerica is part of North America.
Hey Greg, great interview! I know you’re planning on having Jonathan talk about the peep stone for the next video but I’m wondering if you would consider also Hannah Stoddard and the work the Joseph Smith Foundation has done on the matter? I have read several of their books on this subject from the Joseph Smith Foundation and think it’s right up your alley to delve into the translation etc with Hannah. Anyway, keep up the work and I’ve enjoyed your videos.
Hannah doesn't get her history or facts correct
I grew up in the RLDS/CofC church in Ohio and went to church camp, which was called Camp Bountiful. I visited it a few years back and felt a more sacred feeling for the place that I didn't feel when I was younger. I have experienced much in the way of where I have lived that Heavenly Father has me see the importance of more so since I have joined The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.
I have been a Meso believer most of my life. I am grateful for people like Neville who have opened my eyes, as well as others. It doesn't matter where the Book of Mormon took place, but the deception that has taken place down through the years is unbelievable, and has led many people astray. The Heartland theory is definitely onboard with the Book of Mormon. Grateful for the truths taught in this amazing scripture. I wish a map had been used in this discussion.
I've read several books and watched many videos lately on the geography of the book of Mormon. By the end, this is what I figured out. It was this country that was founded to have the restoration possible. No other country in the Americas could have supported that.
20 years ago a man came through Beaver and spoke at the local opera house. He was espousing the heartland theory. I bought two books he brought. One was 'The Mystic Symbol' by Henriette Meyer. Henrietta was a non LDS. attorney that lived by Michigan. She collected artifacts from local farmers. Her collection of tablets was dismissed by the Smithsonian because it showed Creation and biblical carvings and themes. Great book!
As a 17 year old who finally completed the Book of Mormon I prayed for confirmation. I didn't receive it immediately so I started to study Meso American archaeology. People said not to go to archaeology for my answer. I did and found many supports out of Meso America too. Of course I did receive my answer ultimately.
Great interview! Enjoyed this man's perspective a lot.
Excuse me. Henrietta Mertz is the author of The Mystic Symbol'.
Personal opinion the Smithsonian are Gadiantons.
Thank for the intetview with Bro Neville. I find all his theories highly entertaining.
Neville is a rockstar! Wealth of knowledge. Great interview. Thanks Greg!
He's a crackpot.
Thank you
It always made more sense to me that the BoM began in central America and as the Nephites migrated northward they settled parts of North America. I think most members can agree that the hill Cumorah in NY is the same hill that was spoken of by Moroni because that's where the plates were found.
Great post! I also like the Wayne May videos.
Greg, thanks for bringing Jonathan on. Can’t wait to hear the Book of Mormon episode!!
Highly recommend reaching out to Wayne May.
Yes Please!
He is not good with details. He is kinda hung up on things that don’t matter that much.
May is interested in $selling$...
I love that he’s open to other models and actually takes Joseph and I’ll over at his word
Jonathan rocks! He's so logical. He's not argumentative but he knows how to argue (philosophically), IOW, contends without being the least bit contentious. I consider myself fairly diligent and studied in BoM, taught early morning seminary for 4 yrs, about a dozen yrs teaching Gospel Doctrine, I love teaching and the vast amount of study I get to do in class prep even though only about 20% can be presented/discussed in class. Anyway, I used to be mesoAmerican disciple. Jonathan's trial lawyer analysis of the data converted me to being much more inclined to the Heartland theory. But, like Jonathan, once you read what Joseph, Oliver, Lucy, and those who knew Joseph said, my firm conviction is there is one Cumorah and that's right where they said it is, Palmyra, NY. Stick a pin in the map for that. Then there are Joseph's letters to Emma about traversing the lands of the Nephites on Zion's Camp, Nephite altars in Adam Ondi Ahman, and also I think the verses in the BoM about the Gentiles and the Promised Land becoming the most powerful and prosperous, but then also falling. To me, that only refers to the US, not Guatemala or Mexico or some other southern hemisphere country. All that said, it's very interesting to study different ideas. We should do so with empathy for others and allow their ideas. Another thing, the BoM is to bring people to Christ. This is for all. One does not have to join the church to feel the spirit and love of Christ when they read that actual history and spiritual record of a people who actually lived and were visited by the Savior. It's not merely historical fiction IMO. If someone reads it honestly, they will feel the spirit like I said, and I leave it to the Spirit to help them find what to do about that. But it's a book for all Christians and people. It says so in the introduction. It doesn't then say join this church. People should not feel intimidated to read it. They shoukd just read it cause it testifies of Christ. For real.
BTW, I have read several of his books, Letter VII, Moroni's America, A Man Who Can Translate, Between These Hills, and others. I recommend reading his books.
His novel Moronis Keys is a good short story to gift to people to introduce to them the heartland model ❤❤
Interesting discussion.
1.Having just completed rereading Ether, it was clear to me that the millions lost in battle were over a sizable period of time, not some culmination battle.
2. The obvious advantage of the Meso model is the distances that appear to be traveled on foot between great seas.
3. To me an advantage of the Heartland model, besides Oliver's written account, have a lot to do with BOM prophesies about the freedom of the land of promise. That seems to jibe with the general history of the United States far more than the perpetually oppressed peoples south of the Rio Grande.
Any two people have similarities, the farther you get from the Hill Cumorah in New York, the more likely you will find tangential similarities. The fact that Hopewell-Adena lived a few hundred miles, not a few thousand, from the hill Cumorah is what makes the similarities significant.
Thank you so much for having this interview. Jonathon is a wealth of knowledge and has the proper attitude and spirit. It has always baffled me how the Meso-American promotors have discounted the word of Joseph and Oliver and leaned upon the their own learning. I can't wait for the episode dealing with the translation. I agree with Jonathan that these two issues have caused a great deal of damage to many peoples testimonies, or potential testimonies. Thank you for the links to Jonathan's information. I encourage people to learn more.
A fascinating episode! Thank you for this. I can't wait for part 2. I would love to hear explanation/theory of how the cities falling into the sea, and other geographical upheaval around the Savior's crucifixion falls into this framework. My guess has been that there are lost cities in the Caribbean.
Glad you enjoyed it!
I wondered that, too! One day I stumbled upon information about the New Madrid Fault Line. The descriptions of locals regarding what is called “The Forgotten Earthquakes of 1811 & 1812” provide parallels to what is mentioned in the Book of Mormon. When I came across the information from those Earthquakes I began to wonder and then found decades worth of parallels in the research from Wayne May and Rod Meldrum. I was dumbfounded that I’d never heard of the Heartland model before that! I should also mention that the sand blows discovered by geologists that study the New Madrid fault line, show that mega earthquakes regularly “pop off“ in that area every 300 to 500 years, including around the time of Christ.
I think the ruins that are being found under the great lakes could be from this era.
@@lunettepepperglow7472 that is very interesting I’ve never heard of that before. Any reference material that I can look up?
I ❤d this conversation you had with Jonathan here!
My experience has been that the mesoamerica supporters are very critical and defensive where as the heartlanders are open to discussion. It reminds me of the current social issues like CRT, BLM, etc......think like we do or we will make you. The meso model never made sense to me since I was a kid, but I knew from the spirit that the Book of Mormon is true. When I came across the heartland model several ears ago, it just made me smile.
I was a teen and went to Seminary in the late 60s. Back then we were taught that Central America was the narrow neck of land. I remember looking at the map and thinking that if the Lamanites and Nephites did that much running around from South America to North America, it would be impossible to build the stuff they created and have families and a life. Then as an adult in the 80s, I read Sorenson's Meso America version. That made so much more sense to me. For the last ten years, I've learned about the Heartland model, which makes even more sense!
Exactly! Taking a class at CSUS about Native Americans in North America, my whole body felt on fire with the spirit of the Book of Mormon. It was hard to keep it to myself. Many years later I purchased a video done by BYU scholars and it taught the Pacific Ocean Meso-model. I never felt anything for it.
Then I came across a video by Wayne May and that warm, joyful, excitement came back!
Yeah the other guy he interviews (Brandt) starts by saying we all want the heartland model to be true because we're white 🤦♂️
That Hill kamora is an upstate New York. It's not in South America. It never was in South America but scholars pinned their careers in that part of North America. They're wrong they don't want to admit it because they attach too much of their lives to that narrative. Did Christ appear to the people in Panama and? Northern South America and in Peru. You? Betty did they. Were? Part of the. Other people when he left the people around the hill kamora and the city of bountiful he says other people have I must I visit them also. There is evidence that even visited people in Japan or the Japanese islands. But many of the academics that BYU want to hold on to this bias attitude All the evidence plus historical written pieces within church history through the 1st presence of the church that existed during. During president Joseph Smith's time when they walked across the Americas in Zion's camp. Told you where the Heartland Are the ancient inhabitants of this land war? One of the best evidences of that is in the book of mormon where it Tells about the rejection of the gospel by certain people within the book. And that they follow migrating herbs to feed themselves by Following my grading herds. There was no migrating herds in south america of animals the only place that took places in north america
Thank you having Jonathan on and hope you have more discussion with him. Also, Wayne May and Rod Meldrum would be great to have on to. Willard Beans “Fighting Preacher” great Grandaughter to talk as well since her grandfather is the one who help get some of the land back. She has a book Willard Bean put together about the findings while living there such as large skulls, skipping arrows in the water, lots of good dirt with bone calcium by the hill Cumorah. Rod would know how to keep a hold of her.
I love this! This makes sense. I have believed this for years and am grateful to hear it validated. Thank you!
I think when you question Joseph Smith's position; you call into question the validity of the whole gospel and The Book of Mormon.
I used to care a lot about finding Cumorah and proving the haters wrong! But then life got real and I stopped caring so much. My personal witnesses have been far more substantial than finding Cumorah would ever be.
You are correct, we should always focus on the doctrines and principals of the gospel first. But learning about this is also interesting too. I just get tired of the mesoamerica model accept as absolute truth and heartland model not even discussed as an option.
@@ak8990 right you are!
Really great presentation with this gentleman about the heartland model… I learned so much. I also was able to validate my hunch that book Mormon Central was bias great job looking forward to the next episode
Jonathan Neville knows his stuff! Thanks Greg for having him on your show!
So enlightening! Thank you both! Hill Cumorah is in New York.
Thanks for this, Greg! I have many of Jonathan's books. I do think the Heartland Model is the correct model for BOM geography. Brother Neville is very kind and I enjoy listening to him or reading his books. Thanks again.
Thanks for sharing!
@@CwicShow All of the geography descriptions were before the “entire face of the land was changed” at the death of Christ.
I will be having Jonathan Neville on my show this Sunday, March 26th. Look up at Mormon Discussion Inc. Under Live. I will get the link up thursday
A significant point to consider is how the people reckoned time. The people of MesoAmerica used a calendar based on the sun. However, the People of the Book of Mormon used a lunar calendar similar to the Isrealites. I can't recall which of the podcasts pointed this out or the Book of Mormon citations in support of this theory. The other point cited was the question of available animals for suitable sacrificial offerings.
Jonathan Neville is always a great interview. I like his idea of "Multiple Working Hypotheses."
It is great that you have Brother Neville on today. I have watched him several times on Mormon Book Reviews and really enjoy hearing his ideas and the way he presents those ideas. I first learned about the Heartland theory about seven or eight years ago when I came across Wayne May video on youtube. It sure makes sense to me.
also to the cumorah evidence, there was a newspaper article from that area and the early settlers and it stated that locals were collecting huge baskets filled with the artifacts of a great battle. i recall some bones were included.
This is so logical. Four years ago, when I read the Book of Mormon 3 Nephi 21:22 where Jesus said, "THIS LAND," I had a strong impression and yelled, "He is referring to the place where he was standing in North America, and not in Meso America!!!" That was before I knew anything about the Heartland model, I now have my own personal testimony. It is also my belief from my studies that the ruins in the Southern areas of the Americas are an attraction to many, including Wilford Woodruff. However, haven't they been dated from about nine hundred A.D.?
I think Johnathan Neville’s books are especially helpful to understanding the arguments on both sides. I was first convinced of Central America model when I watched the movie, “Ancient America Speaks”, in high school seminary. Seeing is believing. This gives eye candy to that model which was taught as theory at BYU when I was there. I was first introduced to the Heartland geo model from the TV mini series, “Hidden in the Heartland”, which I believe is still available… Anyway the Heartland model aligns with LDS history and BofM teachings about the history of THIS land from then to now…, first hand teachings of Joseph & Oliver, church history and even family traditions concerning the Hill Cumorah / BofM (my father’s Uncle Willard Bean) and the annual pageants where my mother performed as a missionary many decades ago. Each must find their own way but this is part of my faith tradition that I accept for many reasons! I love Johnathan Neville’s books! But my testimony in Christ and the scriptures especially the Book of Mormon.
I was there in 96 .I had good look around. I noticed that there was a ground monitoring station down the S side of the hill. I have seen them being used for underground mining. The sensor and coil were no longer operable. It was in an old wooden box. It's used to tell if someone is digging or drilling it gives off signal .
Robert E. Lee surveyed the Mississippi River and especially the land opposite Nauvoo and a bit upriver from there. He sounded the river at the rapids and the deepest spot was about 5 feet, with most of the river at the rapids being only a few feet deep. This is the only place where the armies of the Nephites could have waded across the Mississippi river to get behind the Lamanites. No other place on the whole Mississippi River could one wade across.
I remember Hugh Nibley saying in a documentary about him that as many times as he had been to Meso America area up and down he had never found any evidence that it was where the Book of Mormon took place. 🤔
As always Greg, I appreciate your willingness to engage with people and ideas that some might disagree with. I appreciate Jonathon's perspective, and that he emphasizes that this isn't nearly as important as the contents of the Book of Mormon and it's teachings, but personally, I don't find Jonathan's arguments to be compelling.
One specific critique comes @16:45, where he said that "The text doesn't refer to the Americas". To me, 1 Nephi 13:12 is a clear contradiction to this assertion.
"And I looked and beheld a man among the Gentiles, who was separated from the seed of my brethren by the many waters; and I beheld the Spirit of God, that it came down and wrought upon the man; and he went forth upon the many waters, even unto the seed of my brethren, who were in the promised land."
The chapter heading (and to my knowledge, every member of the Church) understands this passage to be talking about "the discovery and colonizing of America", so I don't know where Jonathan lands on this, or if it was just a misstatement.
Anyway, I appreciate hearing different perspectives, but I found the arguments put forward to be lacking.
If I could speak for Jonathan, I think he would say that it does not specifically say "America" and that you (and others, myself included) are interpreting that text to say America. If you look at the text, it is actually vague. Someone could read into that whatever they want. I do have to say, even when I believed the Meso Model, every time I would read that part of the Book of Mormon, I always thought of the United States and not Guatemala. The US is the Promised Land.
Happy to do it.
@@jeffwhipple2658 And I can respect that different people can interpret that differently - I feel like this specific scripture and the greater topic is one where reasonable minds can differ, and I'm fine with that. I just don't put a lot of stock into Jonathan's arguments, as in this specific instance he doesn't seem to leave the door open for a widely accepted interpretation of this scripture. If he was more reasonable about things like this, it would make his argument stronger in my eyes. But that's just me.
I always enjoy interviews with Jonathan Nevill. Thank you.
You're welcome!
What an incredible podcast. I live in East Tennessee, and I'm blown away about his theory of the land of nephi being in Tennessee. I would love to hear more about the Chattanooga area. Is there more info about this you could share?
Besides Jonathan, look into videos done by Wayne Mays.
I keep being inspired to move to Chattanooga. Now I think it would be so interesting.
The fields near the hill Cumorah were plowed a few hundred years ago. Tree were lacking in the area. The ground was white from phosphorus. Large mounds were found and many skeletons were heaped into them. Large amount of axe,arrow spear points found. Enough to fill many barrels. According to early farmers
I would love to hear about this source of yours, because I thought that archeologists found no signs of battle from this hill.
Bones deteriorate but teeth don't as much there would millions of them.
Interesting conversation! While not a gospel topic that is necessarily pertinent to our salvation, I still find it so interesting and intriguing.
Having studied both points of view, I can say that I used to be on the Mesoamerican model side. However, only last year I started moving pretty strongly over to the Heartland model side. Both theories have their merits, and I’ll be excited when it truly comes to light where exactly it all happened. What matters though is that it did. Christ manifested Himself to these “other sheep” as well as others of the lost tribes of Israel and the record we have, known as the Book of Mormon, is such a powerful witness of that.
King Mosiah doesn’t go a river journey to get Zarahemla. He goes up around and down. He probably made a big end run around Ohio through Pennsylvania and along the Great Lakes until he got near South Bend Indiana and down the Kankakee, the Illinois and onto the Mississippi to the Chain of Rocks across the river and into Zarahemla.
I’m a Heartlander %100. It just makes sense to my heart and mind.
@@anthonyrippa686 mounds still stand. The timbers that were on the mound have since been destroyed, rotted or removed for repurposing.
@@anthonyrippa686 did you hear him talking about the Adena and Hopewell mounds?
@@anthonyrippa686 The Nephites built their buildings with wood, and their fortifications were largely earth and wood. The only other material mentioned for buildings was cement, which was only used until they could obtain timber. Stone walls are mentioned briefly, but earth mounds and pickets were clearly the main way to defend a city. "Cement highways" are never mentioned in the BoM, so I'm not sure where you're getting that. Everything about their traveling is subjective. How north was "northward"? How south was "southward"? How far was an "exceedingly great distance"? There is no objective way to determine these things. And given that they were ancient people without modern transportation, what they thought of as "far" was probably not as far as what we think of.
@@anthonyrippa686 I was born and raised in Southern Ohio and have had the privilege of exploring the land and mounds. There are many evidences of cement and ancient land removal that seem to match with events in The Book of Mormon, along with the aforementioned mounds.
@@anthonyrippa686 We don't know how extensive the cement use was. The BoM says they also lived in tents during that time. Cement was used only until timber could be acquired. Timber appears to be the desired building material: "they did suffer whatsoever tree should spring up upon the face of the land that it should grow up, that in time they might have timber to build their houses, yea, their cities, and their temples, and their synagogues, and their sanctuaries, and all manner of their buildings."
They wanted timber so badly that they "did send forth much by the way of shipping." So again, how much they actually used cement is unknown (and it was only in the land northward). This cement period also took place before the destructions in 3 Nephi, which may have destroyed many of the cement structures.
The area between Buffalo and Palmyra is roughly 300 miles Sq. Soper and Squire the early antiquarian figured there were some 1200 fortified hill redouts. This was mortal combat, the final stand of about 3oo ooo souls.
Howard W Hunter was a proponent of the Hill Cumorah (where the final battles took place) in MesoAmerica. This is what opened my mind initially to there being two Cumorahs - one in MesoAmerica and one in New York State.
A detailed reading of the book of mormon will get you to that conclusion, Joseph Smith didn't originally refer to the hill in new york as Cumorah, it was Oliver Cowdery who started that, by 1842, in D&C Joseph Smith uses the word Cumorah, but at that time the idea had already been cemented in church culture.
Keep looking into the Heartland Model and you will find that it fits better than the Meso Model. I was skeptical at first but after going down the rabbit hole, the Heartland Model makes the most sense. Promised Land, Law of Moses, and so many other reasons.
@@carlosjosejimenezbermudez9255 If you watch the video, Jonathan covers this. He said that Joseph knew the name Cumorah before he got the plates, according to his mother Lucy Smith. Jospeh was learning first hand about the history of the BofM people straight from the source, angels that visited him. Joseph would then teach his family about what he had learned, kind of like FHE style. The family would love to sit and listen to Joseph talk all about what he learned. This was all BEFORE getting the plates. He was being prepared to translate the BofM by first getting to understand the people and their culture.
@@carlosjosejimenezbermudez9255 You are describing the narrative that RLDS scholars Stebbins and Hills started in the late 1800s, which Jack Welch has picked up and promoted, but that narrative contradicts the historical record. Re-read Lucy Mack Smith's history and the other sources available at the lettervii dot com site.
If you read the church history series you find that the hill actually opened and they went inside discovering an entire repository of documents. There was also a table upon which was the sword. Condensed version
I tend to lean towards the heartland model, but I acknowledge there are difficulties with each model. I do think that some of the criticisms of the heartland model, like “the Great Lakes are too small to be seas” are dismissed when there are valid responses to these criticisms. Using the example I mentioned, we have no problem with the Sea of Galilee or the Dead Sea or even the Caspian Sea, but because we have call the Great Lakes “lakes” in English, we somehow conclude that the Nephites would not have called them seas, so seas must refer to the ocean.
Lehi and his family gathered the harvest and loaded the boat on the SE Arabian peninsula and the sailing time around Africa would be the perfect time to land in Florida and plant their seeds, as it says they did in the B of M.
The Prophet Joseph Smith’s statement that they were, “wandering over the plains of the Nephites, recounting occasionally the history of the Book of Mormon, roving over the mounds of that once beloved people of the Lord, picking up their skulls & their bones, as a proof of its divine authenticity,” then through revelation that “Zelph … was a warrior and a Chieftain under the great prophet Onandagus,” is providing essential physical evidence that the Nephites and the Lamanites resided in America’s Heartland. That physical evidence, combined with a spiritual testimony, transforms one’s faith into a perfect sure knowledge. Jesus did the same after His resurrection when He invites those to feel the prints in His hands and feet, etc. Gaining a physical body makes us complete - having only a spiritual body is not part of the Plan of Salvation. In like manner a physical witness that the Nephites were in North America is being solidified by the Prophet Joseph. Those in the Zion's Camp already had a spiritual witness. Joseph was then providing them with physical evidence that the Book of Mormon is true and that the people actually lived where they were "roving."
Very interesting video. I have never heard of fortification at Cumora. I would be interested in that subject.
Heber also visited the site after he joined the Church in April 1832.
He wrote, "The hill Cumorah is a high hill for that country, and had the appearance of a fortification or entrenchment around it."
When he was 14 years old, Kimball worked in his father's blacksmith shop in the Bloomfield area west of Canandaigua and east of Avon. His observations of the area are quoted in his biography, Life of Heber C. Kimball, on p. 25 (or p. 50, depending on the edition):
"From the time Father Bosley located near Avon, he found and plowed up axes and irons, and had sufficient to make his mill irons, and had always abundance of iron on hand without purchasing.
"In the towns of Bloomfield, Victor, Manchester, and in the regions round about, there were hills upon the tops of which were entrenchments and fortifications, and in them were human bones, axes, tomahawks, points of arrows, beads and pipes, which were frequently found; and it was a common occurrence in the country to plow up axes, which I have done many times myself.
"I have visited the fortifications on the tops of those hills frequently, and the one near Bloomfield I have crossed hundreds of times, which is on the bluff of Honeyoye River, and the outlet of Honeyoye Lake....
"The hill Cumorah is a high hill for that country, and had the appearance of a fortification or entrenchment around it. In the State of New York, probably there are hundreds of these fortifications which are now visible, and I have seen them in many other parts of the United States."
Heber's biographer, Elder Orson F. Whitney of the Quorum of the Twelve, commented "Readers of the Book of Mormon will remember that in this very region, according to that sacred record, the final battles were fought between the Nephites and Lamanites. At the hill Cumorah, the Nephites made their last stand prior to their utter extermination, A.D., 385.
"Thus was Heber preaching the Gospel to the Gentiles, above the graves of the ancients of Israel, whose records with the fullness of that Gospel, and the relics of their prowess and civilization, were now 'whispering from the dust.'"
archive.org/details/LifeOfHeberC.Kimball/page/n49/mode/2up?q=Cumorah
The fact that the church's name and "brand" is on the "SAINTS" book is why the members defer to it so readily. For years I believed that if it had the church's name on it that that meant that it would have been carefully approved or edited by the brethren before release. Knowing what I know now about the church history department I understand why that is not the case. It doesn't change anything about the gospel or it's truth, but instead adds further testimony to what Pres. Nelson and the brethren have been trying to teach us these last few years: GET THE SPIRIT OR PERISH! We can't trust in brand names anymore, even the one that bears the Lord's name. We have to trust solely in HIS gospel and in the Holy Ghost.
Excellent episode! Great stuff.
Thanks!
Academia kills me. They put themselves on a pedestal like no other I feel. So Joseph, who was tutored by an Angel was wrong and they, who are tutored by men and their own research and deduction are right. Thanks but I’ll place my trust in an Angel who communes with Jehovah. I love this guy! He’s great! Thanks for having him on!
So to clarify, are you saying you trust Joseph's beliefs & opinions, over other scholars and other researchers, regarding the Book of Mormon record?
@@davus4242 absolutely. I think, being taught and tutored by an angel far exceeds any kind of knowledge a scholar could obtain by his own efforts.
@@robynmills5534 Excellent! Indeed, Joseph was well tutored, by many Angels and visions regarding the Book of Mormon, Joseph truly is the one qualified mortal expert on the Book of Mormon. Everyone else (in mortality) including Oliver, would be secondary to Joseph's opinion. Correct, Joseph's knowledge and expertise of the Book of Mormon, does far exceed the opinion of any earthly scholar or run-of-the-mill non-scholar researchers such as Mr. Neville in this video?
Perhaps what Joseph believed would be of interest to you.
The Church's main focus and mission is to proclaim and teach the Gospel of Christ; BOM & Biblical geography are not topics the Church dwells on, thus many latter-day saints are unaware Joseph claimed and declared Zarahemla was in Central America; he even put it in writing and published it. If you're interested in historical facts, google - Times and Seasons October 1, 1842 Zarahemla. Joseph as Editor, along with his assistant editors, Apostles John Taylor & Wilford Woodruff (both of whom would become presidents of the Church), boldly declare as an "important fact" - Zarahemla was in Central America, in the land of Guatemala. To substantiate the claim and declaration, Joseph, being very familiar with the details of the BOM, quotes and rehearses Alma 22 describing the region where Zarahemla was. This is what Joseph felt and believed, and he printed it in the Church's Times and Seasons paper, there's no hearsay about it. True story look it up.
The editors then went on to clarify, they weren't declaring an exact or specific city mentioned in an explorer's book, they had previously named and discussed in a previous edition of the T&S as the city of Zarahemla. They didn't feel impressed to declare that specific city Zarahemla, only that Zarahemla was somewhere in Central America. However, they (Joseph, John, & Wilford) are of the opinion that the previously named city, was a city of the Book of Mormon, just not Zarahemla. Read the T&S article for the details. Keep in mind, this secondary clarification of a specific city previously named as not being Zarahemla, does not dissolve the declared important fact, that Zarahemla was in Central America.
The important fact of Zarahemla being in Central America collaborates with the BOM narrative. You either trust Joseph or you don't. To attempt to speculate this declaration away is futile. Also, know, in the same T&S Oct 1, 1842 edition, the editors (Joseph, John, & Wilford) refute the conspiring claims, suggesting Joseph had fled the area of Nauvoo and is on the run. Truth is, Joseph was still in the area and still very much editor of what was printed in the T&S Oct 1, 1842; while at the same time avoiding false arrest of conspiring men. Read the full edition, Joseph was still around and still very much in charge, as represented & substantiated by the T&S article itself. So a very special thanks to the editors(Joseph, John, & Wilford), for documenting this conspiracy so long ago and clearing it up for future generations.
Keep in mind, earlier that year, when Joseph took over as editor of the T&S, he declared, and assured the readers, that he alone would be responsible for what was printed in the T&S while he was editor. Joseph was Editor until November 15, 1842, a full six weeks after Joseph makes the declaration that Zarahemla is in Central America; at which time Joseph steps aside as Editor and appoints John Taylor as the new Editor of the Times and Season. Logic and common sense dictate if John Taylor had published the Zarahemla claim on his own, without Joseph's knowledge and consent, and if Joseph didn't agree with it; would Joseph have promoted John to Editor six weeks after such declaration?? The thought makes reason stare. Further, "if" Joseph didn't oversee the publication of the October 1, 1842 edition, and he disagreed with the bold declaration, know this, Joseph would have had it retracted, as he assured his readers he was responsible. Joseph never had it retracted. Truth is, Joseph is the one who published it; Joseph was Editor and owns the declaration, Zarahemla is in Central America. You either trust Joseph or you don't.
Next, go to the Church's website and search - 'Book of Mormon Geography'. Notice, the church takes no stance on the exact location of BOM cities, because no exact locations have been revealed. However, in the same statement on the Church's website, the Church does acknowledge Joseph's beliefs on the subject, and further confirms and substantiates Joseph as Editor of the Times & Seasons in 1842 for the articles referring to Book of Mormon lands and Central America (aka Mesoamerica). Very interesting indeed. Kinda clears up any speculation. Joseph, states Zarahemla is in Central America, within the borders of Guatemala, as he would have known it on the maps of his day. For additional & interesting collaboration on what Joseph would have known Guatemala to be in his day, google - "map of Guatemala 1825" (or 1835, it doesn't matter) open a properly labeled map and notice Guatemala's borders back in Joseph's day extended as far north to include the Chiapas & Palenque areas of modern-day Mexico. Say what! A very interesting area indeed! Long before any scholar pronounce their own theory as to the location of the land of Zarahemla, Joseph had already declared it to be Central America. No scholars or theories needed to narrow down the general area, Joseph did it for us. All things considered, it all fits.
With Zarahemla being in Central America, does the BOM narrative accommodate Joseph's claims of "walking the plains of the Nephites" and the Zelph stories? Could both be accurate and plausible? Yes, in fact, these stories actually collaborate with the BOM narrative precisely with no contradiction. Alma 63 and Helaman 3:3-5,12-16 states many groups of Nephites left the land of Zarahemla & Bountiful and migrated to the north country, both by land and by sea. This also accounts for how a Zelph-type character and other descendants of converted Lamanites were in the northern country during the last struggles. Remember these Nephites departed FROM the lands of Zarahenla and Bountiful sailing across a sea. Also note, there is a sea, not just land, between Zarahemla and the land of a New Jerusalem in the north country. So yes, there are plains of Nephites in the heartland of the north country, There are no contradictions by Joseph, and no mental gymnastics are required. There are even statements in the BOM narrative that signal there was commerce trade happening between the Nephites in the land of Zarahemla/Bountiful and the migrant Nephites groups in the north country. It's all in the book. The book itself, says we will find evidence of Nephite cultures in the heartland of North America; only the evidence found is that of other Nephite groups that left the lands of Zarahemla & Bountiful where the prophets Nephi through Mormon dwelt, which is in Central America. No academics or scholars are needed to locate the region of the continent where the city of Zarahemla was; Joseph already took care of it in 1842; it's in Central America. After studying the Book of Mormon and all of Joseph's statements, I agree with Joseph; Zarahemla is somewhere in Central America.
I'm certainly not going with the opinion of a guy selling books based upon uninspired, inaccurate, secondhand letters of Oliver. Oliver couldn't even keep the timeline of the first vision and Moroni visit straight, as he conflates them into one event. Joseph had to have Oliver retract the mistake, which Oliver does in the next letter (which demonstrates Joseph didn't actually dictate or help write the letters in the first place, as Mr. Neville insinuates. Oliver made the mistake on his own, and Joseph corrected it after the letter was written). However, to this day, anti-Mormons use Oliver's debacle as evidence it's a made-up story, that the story evolved, and that they couldn't keep their story straight.
In another inaccurate Oliver letter, Oliver places himself as equal to Joseph in place of authority, referring to Joseph as "one" of the presidents of the Church, hello, Joseph was the President, and Oliver was only an assistant, there's a big difference. Joseph realizes Oliver was inept with the task of accurately writing the history; Joseph removes Oliver from writing the history and calls someone else to do it. Oliver lets his ego rule his emotions, continues to falter, and is excommunicated for dissension and sedition. Sad, but true. The Oliver letters are inaccurate, full of mis & disinformation, and of no or very little worth in the correct history of Joseph, the Church, and the Book of Mormon.
All things considered, it all adds up and fits; I'm going with Joseph on this one, Zarahemla is in Central America; you either trust him or you don't.
The Book of Mormon is correct and true! Take care now!
I am sure that for the most part the Scholars are well meaning and have done a lot of good, but when they have to down play the words of the Prophet to make their theories valid I have a hard time giving their theories much validity. It always makes me think of the fact that the Savior himself had to fight the teachings of the Scholars of His day and that they were the ones who, though many were probably well meaning, had Him crucified.
I've always been confused when seeing things saying the events of the Book of Mormon took place in central America/south America. It makes so much more sense to be in North America. I haven't watched the entire video yet so I'm not sure if this was mentioned but the Book of Mormon even mentions snow! Epic video!
Enjoyed the interview. Another great episode to consider would be to match Jonathan up with Wayne May and Rod Meldrum. Fascinating topic.
Though I lean towards a central america mesoamerica limited model, I always love listening to Jonathan Neville and hearing his ideas! Very smart man!
Thank you Greg, for another insightful and thoughtful show. Very positive and uplifting.
Thanks, Greg! Love the Heartland model!
Glad you like it!
These speculations are just rabbit holes that take our focus off the point of The Book of Mormon. I really don't know why so many are fixated on locating the places in the BoM.
Fantastic! All this rings so true to me and thanks to Johnathon Neville for remaining open but “just the facts mam” about it.
Glad you enjoyed it.
I think Mormon was trying to find the best place to give the Lamanites battle. The finger lakes would be strategic ground. The highest point of withdrawal would be to the highest ground of the largest Drummond hill, Cumorh. The hill would be best place to hide all records.
Been to both places, in Central America and the heartland. Was there before the question of where BOM geography took place. Wondered why at the time I never “felt” an impression in Central America, where as I could never shake the impressions in the heartland, for years and years. Nobody has to prove anything to me, I know where it all happened. Look for added faith in personal revelation, you will not be misled with your righteous desire. 1:04:10
I served my mission in Central America and visited Copan Honduras three times, Tikal, and ruins in Yucatán. My experience exactly. The heartland rings true. I get cognitive dissidence in considering Mesoamerica.
“therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni.” It surprised me too, when I read that more carefully. The abridgment was not hidden in the original Cumorah, not according to scripture at least. Nobody should base their testimony on a geographical model in either case.
Where did Moroni hide the plates he had?
@@CwicShow He never gives a name of where he hid them, he only says he will write and then hide them in the earth. Mormon 8:4 "Therefore I will write and hide up the records in the earth". We know from his updates, he wandered for 30-36 years and continued to write updates as he wandered, before hiding them in the earth in up state NY. He never references the name of where he hid them, as Cumorah; not in the BOM and never to Joseph as recorded in Joseph's history, canonized in the Pearl of Great Price.
Moroni never referred to the hill, where he buried the plates, as Cumorah. He met with Joseph many, many times for years and never once referred to it as Cumorah. Joseph never mentions Moroni mentioning the name of the hill where he got the plates. In Joseph's history, he names off all the scriptures, places, events, and previous prophets, Moroni mentioned during his visits, surely Moroni knows the name of the hill he knew as Cumorah. Moroni names everything else; why would he not refer to this hill by name?? Because the hill where he buried the plates in, he didn't know by name; he was led to it by the spirit after having wandered for 30+ years, so the plates would be in a constitutionally free country and where Joseph's family would be. Remember, Mormon gave the plates to Moroni at Cumorah and instructed Moroni to am-scram to protect the plates.
Moroni carried the plates away from Cumorah, he didn't bury them in Cumorah.
Also, keep in mind, Joseph wasn't the one who started calling the hill, Cumorah; other saints did. Nowhere in the BOM or Joseph's history does Joseph or Moroni, ever call the hill in NY, Cumorah. It was Oliver Cowdery and other saints, who first called the hill in NY Cumorah, not Joseph, not Moroni.
Realize, it is common practice for people to name places after other places. Much like the Saints who settled Utah, naming the predominant mountain South of Utah Lake, Mt. Nebo; it doesn't mean it's the same Mt. Nebo Moses stood upon overlooking the promised land. Or that the City of Bountiful north of Salt Lake City, is the City of Bountiful mentioned in the Book of Mormon. Good grief. It's an honorary name that became the common vernacular by the Saints to reference the hill where Joseph received the plates; they had to call the hill something in conversation.
In Joseph's history written in 1838, years after the saints had been calling the hill in NY, the Hill Cumorah, Joseph still doesn't refer to the hill as Cumorah in his history, he has it recorded as "a hill of considerable size", even though by this time, it had become the nomenclature of the saints to refer to the hill, where he got the plates, as Cumorah. The name Cumorah is mentioned in the Book of Mormon as where Moroni received the plates from his father, if the hill in NY is the real BOM Cumorah, the one where Mormon buried all the records, why would Joseph go out of his way to not have the "actual" known name of the hill referenced in his history?? Because both Joseph and Moroni, knew it was not the same hill Mormon was at; accuracy matters for the recorded history. Again, the NY hill was first referred to as Cumorah, by other Ladder-day Saints, not Moroni nor Joseph. Once, the saint had adopted calling the hill in NY, Cumorah, Joseph was fine with the endearing and honorary name, of calling the hill Cumorah in conversations himself, as that's what the saints were used to, as identifying the hill where he received the plates. Thus there is the original BOM Cumorah, which Mormon and Moroni knew, and also an honorary Hill Cumorah in NY, named by the saints.
Wow, two of my faves!! I love Jonathan Neville!! He just makes so much sense to me. I agree this debate has gotten out of hand and I wish they could just put on debates and just put it all on the table.
I do agree that so much of this seems to attract the political sides as well. I admit to being on the right conservative traditionalist side. The thing is that both you and Neville say you’re independent politically, at least you do, but the majority of the topics you speak about is going after the progressive poison that’s within the Church. I just wish we could point that out more, but like you said we are in a spiral of silence and the thin skinned membership just can’t handle the tough debates anymore. Let’s just figure out the truth together wherever it leads.
Thanks for this show.... you should get Rod Meldrum on too as well as Hannah Stoddard who is of their ilk.
Love them all.
Great discussion! Subscribed!
I really enjoyed this and I'm open to it being in either place although I do lean toward the heartland theory. I had no idea there was such a controversy.
Fantastic presentation!! I look forward to more on this subject!
Long before I ever heard of the Heartland Model or Rod Meldrum, I read an interesting book Christ in North America by Delbert Curtis. Quite eye opening. Recommended reading for those who have an open mind.
Delbert Curtis was my father-in-law’s uncle. He was always Uncle Deb to family.
Thanks Greg for this interview! It was really fascinating and I am open to both opinions. It’s interesting that if we believe in the miraculous event of the hill Cumorah opening up and Joseph and Oliver entering into an ancient repository (And I do believe it) then isn’t it plausible that the cave could be anywhere and one of the entrances is located in Cumorah NY? Just something that I am pondering about - thank you again Greg!
Hi, there was a "room" discovered in the Hill Cumorah in about 2004 or 5. Located about 1/2 way down the high west side. I know one of the people who saw the opening after a young child fell through the "ground" into the room or cave. it was roughly 16 ft square and perhaps 10 feet deep. Made of dry stack stones. Several photos were taken and I have seen the photos and spoken with other eyewitnesses. The Church facilities covered the whole the next day and it has not been explored to my knowledge.
I have a question about the hill Shiloh. Where is the reference that says Mosiah stopped there to get the Brass Plates? In the Book of Omni where the move to Zarahemla happens, it only says that "Zarahemla did rejoice exceedingly, because the Lord had sent the people of Mosiah with the plates of brass which contained the record of the Jews." (Omni verse 14)
It comes from a second hand account from Martin Harris. Read , The Lost 116 Pages by Don Bradley.
1st Nephi 6:5 explains why the text isn't reliable as a your geographic basis. Joseph, who had personal interaction with resurrected writers of the BoM, and Oliver are the source I trust.
I have thought that the reason that the Central American concept has been pushed by the scholars is that the church growth in central and South America was so fast and based on the premise that “your ancestors were the Nephites and Lamanites”that they dared not do an about face.
I’m a convert of 48 years. I asked the missionaries why would the church say it happened in Central America but yet the plates were in NY. They didn’t have an answer. It didn’t matter because I already knew the Book of Mormon was the word of God when I called them to come teach me.
We learn in Mormon 4:23 that the Lamanites were about to overthrow the land, so Mormon took up the records hidden in the hill Shim. Since that point Mormon kept the records even during the time of the Nephites retreat. That retreat began about ten years before the final battle. So realistically that is plenty of time for the records to be moved from central America to NY to be buried by Moroni. But we also need to remember that the final burial of the plates occurred in 421 AD while the final battle occurred in 385 AD.
Enjoyable episode. I look forward to future episodes with Jonathan
Joseph Fielding Smith in Doctrines of Salvation v.3 page 232-243 talks about where it’s located. In the JSH 1:34 Moroni states where it’s located.
I first heard about the book of Mormon geography debate in 2008 when I read prophecies and promises by Meldrum and Porter. I have studied it in great depth since then. The heartland model is the only model that makes sense. Wayne May, Jonathan Neville, Bruce Porter and Rod Meldrum have done an excellent job in bringing to light all of this information. I am grateful for their research and helping me understand clearly the truth of book of Mormon geography. First and foremost I have a Spiritual testimony of the book of Mormon. However a testimony of its actual geography bolsters my spiritual testimony.
When I first read about the "Heartland" model, it immediately rang true to me. I met Rod Meldrum at Costco and got his book (Exploring the Book of Mormon in America's Heartland) there. One of the main things he brought out was the DNA evidence -- the only native American DNA that has Jewish origins is in the Algonquin tribes in the Northeast of THIS country. That is really cool to me! But the books on the Heartland model present so MUCH evidence, and comparatively, the evidence for the meso-American model is much weaker.
DNA evidence shows the Algonquian women were appealing to European trappers and explorers. White women were attractive to Indians, too. Ha!
In the Book of Mormon, cloaks are mentioned. You don't wear cloaks in Central America, it's too hot.
Great episode, thank you so much!
We need to place trust in Joseph, Oliver, etc. and not academics or apologists who have tinkered with the narrative. I find the original inspired narrative much more faith promoting and inspirational.
I have no problem with either model, its harder to understand that Garden of Eden is in Missouri, but we believe Joseph on that, so why not believe him on the heartland model as well
There is a lot of evidence that the land before the flood at Noah's time was basically one continent. The secular scientist call it Pangea. When you put the continents back together it makes it much easier to see that the Garden was located where Joseph said. Answers in Genesis is a great Christian organization that has wonderful UA-cam videos that explain this. They don't talk about Joseph's revelations of course, but great scientific based information anyway.
BYU scholarship has been very corrupted with pride. "When they are learned, they think they are wise and hearken not unto the counsels of God."
The first point that matters most is that Joseph Smith WAS not just a prophet but a seer who saw things through the Urim and Thummin and through visions. That means that he saw events in the Book of Mormon and knew for a certainty where they were. He talked with Moroni who lived there. There was no doubt that he knew where he uncovered the plates, near his home. Any opinion by men who discount this is their opinion only and have no faith in Joseph Smith. I don't trust those who undermine our first prophet and seer.
Amen Jeff!
Um read Doctrine and covenants it specifically states that he was the first prophet in this dispensation
Modern LDS scholars are moving away from literal belief in the Scriptures to a more symbolic representation which enables them to have a wider scope of expression. This expression can be seen in academics scoffing and negation of the more literal expression of Scripture by earlier General Authorities. I wonder where all this is heading and fully understand why our prophets are warning us about the need to depend on the Holy Ghost for truth and not man in the latter days. Thanks to 'Cwic' for allowing our minds to evaluate the conditions that are continually before us.
He keeps saying the meso-America crowd say that Joseph and Oliver were wrong. I don't think they would use that word. Mistaken would be a better term. I think people, even prophets, are allowed to have innocuous presumptions that turn out to be mistaken. Jonathan seems to be promoting an infallibility viewpoint that is not realistic.
Intellectuals can be so smart that they approach insanity.
There are pictures of an ancient room in the Hill Cumorah. A child actually found it via an accident by falling into a hole in the ground.
That’s a myth, as much as Steve Martin having the discussions or the 7 foot men protecting the temple in NZ 😂
I would like for you to have Tyler Griffin on to talk specifically about BoM geography, to have another point of view presented.
Where is the depository of the rest of the Nephite records if that is indeed THE Hill Cumorah in NY?
Moroni mentions Cumorah but never said he was burying the plates in Cumorah. He only said that the remaining Nephites fled, were hunted and killed until it was only Moroni left. He then said "I will write and hide up the records in the earth; and whither I go it mattereth not." Moroni seems to indicate that he had wandered the land and would hide the plates when the time was right. Keep in mind he said this 15 years AFTER the battle of Cumorah, so he has already been traveling all that time away from the Lamanites (Mormon 8). Moroni 10 was written another 20 years after Mormon 8. That's 35 years of wandering, and one would think he certainly would not end up deep in the Lamanite lands again. He knew the hill Cumorah (it was written by name by his father Mormon) so it is logical that he would specifically name the location for hiding the plates in Hill Cumorah if he indeed did so.
1 Nephi 13:12. We know this is specifically Columbus that is mentioned by Nephi, and Columbus "went forth upon the many waters, even unto the seed of my brethren, who were in the promised land." Columbus never touched the lands of the United States. His voyages were to the Caribbean Islands, Venezuela and the central American coast areas of Honduras, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, and Panama, and interactive with the natives of those lands.
But would he come on the show?
@@CwicShow No clue, but it would be awesome if he did, even if geography was only a small part of what would be discussed. I enjoy his and Taylor's videos each week.
Long before I was introduced to the scholars at FAIR I did my own research and determined for myself that the Book of Mormon took place in Meso-America. I even determined that it was the Maya who represented both Nephite and Lamanite based on my research.
Of course Moroni eventually got to New York because that was where the plates were finally buried, but he had almost 40 years to get there so thier final location is not a reliable way to determine where the Book of Mormon took place.
I find this stuff so fascinating
Excellent content
I'm leaning toward the heartland theory. It makes a lot of sense. If the Bof M took place there, where did Hagoth sail/embark from?
It would be from the great lakes, most likely either up towards Canada or out the St Lawrence to the ocean.
@David Read or could it be that before the crucifixion where the landscape was changed, earth heavings, cataclysmic quakes etc there might have been a large channel emptying into the Pacific Ocean?
Another important point: I didn't hear a discussion of the "Zelph problem" (I did step away for a minute so perhaps it was discussed). Does accepting the Meso model exclusively mean that the Zelph story would have to be a fabrication? How does it fit in?
I don't think so, Zelph was a Lamanite warrior per Joseph Smith. He could have lived hundreds of years after the Book of Mormon and still be a Lamanite even if his people had migrated over time.
That's just my understanding of how it is explained
Despite the Book of Mormon not being an actual piece of legitimate history, it can't have good metaphorical truths to help people live better lives.
I am an open book to either of these theories. One big question I can’t find an answer to in the New York theory is the winter issue. Why would Mormon leave out any mention of cold weather? Because it’s cold up there. Really cold!!
The Meso-America scholarship unwittingly bent to pressure from Academia and Archeologists that always have said, there is no evidence of the kind of structures and population to validate the BOM claims. That isn’t true anymore. There is cosmology including the Hopewell airburst, comet effigy’s, peculiar earthworks and hundreds++ of sites. Evidence of widespread cataclysm and large populations. However the Yucatán peninsula is also underestimated in how developed it was. One thing is clear, that artifacts from both locations are showing that trade and travel is also something that we underestimate. We have a post modern psychosis and don’t understand what could be achieved in the given time that they had.