Respawns should ALWAYS be after you kill a boss, that becomes the next checkpoint. It makes killing a boss an achievement and a sigh of relief in higher keys.
This is good in almost all cases. In some dungeon designs, it is a longer run back from some bosses (like Throne of Tides) rather than just the entrance
100%. nothing sucks more this expansion than the absurdly long run backs. Some of them are so long that they literally mean the difference between timing the key or not, even if you DO recover well from dying or wiping.
My issue with M+ was bricking keys. Same problem with Ranked Arena that I had when I was 2400+. You spend more time finding a group than actually playing.. In M+ you spend forever finding a group then it bricks on first boss and you're left standing around with your dick in your hand and a key that is now lower that NO ONE your rating wants to push...
@@thiloramke3320 I am not saying this to brag but to express that I know what I am talking about. I played M+ to 20+ on all in Season 1 of DF and finished at top ~1.5% of priest healers. I did that entirely pugging and that’s a big problem and I’ll tell you why. There is a HUGE player desert between top 98th percentile and 99th percentile in every form of the game. I can pug to 3.2k IO pretty easily but after that there are almost no people that are on your level to play with so it’s nearly impossible to find a group. There are a lot of people doing 20s that can’t do a 25 then there are legit teams that are doing 30s that don’t want to play with you cuz you’re lower than them. The SAME thing happened in SL when I was big into RBGs and quit playing them too… It was pretty easy to get to 2000-2200 rating, but getting to 2400 was nearly impossible because you spent 2+ hours forming a single group of people around your rating. There were a lot of 2k-2.2k that would join your team and suck but finding 10 2.3k+ players was nearly impossible. Then you hit 2400 and there is a 400 rating desert where there is no one to play with. You’ve reached max pug rating. The true premade teams for 2800+ don’t want to play with a lowly 2400. And before anyone says anything yes, I’ve tried VERY hard to make premade groups. I’ve spent countless hours working to find people and it never pans out. The only form of play that people seem willing to plan around IRL is raiding.
there are bricks in every sport and every game man, how do you intend to not have those from time to time? lol um K... you run pugs right? Bricks will never stop man... find a 5 man group... dont join a pug, have the key fail, and say it Blizzards fault.. PUHAHAHA LET me guess... u want to fail the run but keep your same key? you want some cheese with that WHINE?
As a mid range M+ player I am not quite able to hit title but also play much higher keys than the max reward (10), I would LOVE to get some form of cosmetic for doing like 15s let the sweaty title players have like the sick red mog, give me the slightly less cool one, but give me something
Great video. If i had to make a single change I would say give keys charges like 3 charges before it depletes, this would help with trolls joining then leaving, or joining and leaving if you wipe even once.
I think having a season at the end of each expansion that the dev team runs wild with experiments is an absolute no brainer. Even if it does not work, it is easy to make it up to the player base with a prepatch, etc, and it would allow the next expansion to be a lot more polished.
Yeah, seeing Quazii, Dratnos, and others being legitimately excited is rubbing off on me. I'm genuinely getting hyped now for mythic plus. Giant win for blizzard
@@ZondaRbg They wouldn't be happy like they wasn't in Shadowlands when the game was on its arse and half the streamers quit the game, so its nice to see after years that the best of best content creators are hyped , so hes obviously happy because the game looks good again but they haven't been this hyped for years that's the difference.
"You finally get to date the person you wanted to date. That you have been having a crush on for the longest time. And then on the first date the person tells you there is a downside. I have a curfew at 11:00 or else my dad who does mixed martial arts is going to kick your ass."
YES - please give the players who do like 10-15s something they can work towards as well. Even just an illusion or something when hitting all keys on 15 or something would be a great start - its way better than having nothing at all in the area from portals to the title!
Idk if I'm burning meal in the kitchen with this one but maybe tyrannical could give haste to the boss? Fight would be faster, require more thought with defensives instead of making it longer. Ofc it would have to be tested again so 2 mechanics don't overlap in unfun way
I still don't know why affixes exist at all. They were literally a bandaid for a problem that doesn't exist anymore. We used to play the same 8 dungeons for an entire expansion which is where blizzard needed to do something because it was boring. Affixes were the bandaid. The long term solution needs to be simply giving us more new dungeons. If they can create new raids every content patch, then they can create at least a few new dungeons. You'd think that since M+ is literally the biggest feature keeping the game alive they'd actually invest into it.
@@JackJackKcajifyyou don’t want . 99% of the playerbase do as you can see from the feedback. People also want myth track gear to drop from +6 instead of +8 . People also want mythic raid to not drop gear and for it to just be a challenge for top players
@@JackJackKcajify some people, not everyone, have advocated for mythic raid to drop cosmetic only rewards (i.e. first boss drops wrist xmog, 2nd drops boots, etc. etc. final boss drops shoulders) A more reasonable take I think is for the final boss to only have cosmetic rewards, but the earlier bosses stay as they are. Imo it feels a bit silly for the last boss in mythic to drop gear rewards. Like, you just killed the final boss on the hardest difficulty and your reward is... a slight damage increase IF you are lucky enough to get a drop. A slight damage increase which you don't need because you just killed the hardest boss...on the hardest difficulty. If the reward was Xmog or a mount, or a spell/weapon effect that'd be an actual reward. Everyone has a different idea of what they want though, there is no "correct" or perfect answer. Hope this helps explain why some of us have this idea.
But just to clarify, majority of people will be doing up to +5s (+15 equivalent) for keystone master right? So most people won’t have to worry about the affixes after +5s.
To get KSM in S4, you want +6s at a minimum. +6s award a bit less than 200 points if the highest among the base affix pair (Tyrannical or Fortified) for that dungeon, otherwise it's 1/3rd of that. Meaning, if you get a +6 on both Tyrannical and Fortified that's less than 266 points (200 + 66). You need an average of 250 points per dungeon. Realistically, you'll probably have a mix of +8s, +7s, +6s, and below before getting KSM unless you hard commit to just filling out +6. In other words, assuming they don't change the ratings system, you'll almost certainly definitely have to deal with the new +7 affix if KSM is your goal.
Was chatting with some buddies and someone suggested the following change as well: - If you complete a key, but over time, you get the key back at the same key level. The main benefit will obviously be to enable groups to continue attempting a key at a certain level. Separately, it will solve the concern that if keys do not deplete, people will just try massive initial pulls and just reset if it does not go well. It will also encourage people to practice keys further into the dungeon. #completedoesntdeplete
I think the problem with MDI is the inevitable boringness of what a META does to the audience when it comes to a competitive setting. Teams participating are incentivized to play the same comps for optimal gameplay because there is a money incentive to do so and it is simply not worth participating in the MDI if there is no money incentive.
@@bojnebojnebojne If there wasn't money involved, the key pushing scene would still be alive and well. There's still a sizeable community of Sly Cooper speedrunners. They're competing for no money, and the ''meta'' never changes. Competition will always exist, affixes and prize pools don't change that fundamental fact.
@@panda8bamboo161 Well duh, there's always going to be people who do things for the sake of doing it. What i'm getting at is that the competitive scene wouldn't be as big or have as high quality of play and skilled players without a monetary incentive. And as a response to the lack of quality and player skill, the audience will gradually lose interest as a result. That's what happens in real sports as well. When the quality of a sport degrade, so does the interest from the audience... That's why lower divisions of any sport have a lower audience rating. It's basic as fk and debating it is stupid and ignorant. Monetary incentives are necessary to keep a competitive scene going long term.
Im aligned with you 100%. This is a VERY good cook. I really appreciate when they do try things, and i cant wait to see what else they cook in this kitchen. As a community, lets make sure to reward the behavior we wanted to see.
Thanks Quazii , fantastic video and I’m very glad for these changes ! Yes please add cosmetic appearances back to keys 10+ challenge mode armour and wep recolours to start is fine.
Ya I think they made a huge mistake, every week is now same same. Maybe this goes live but they did not put enough effort in for sure if were this close and this is all they got. Overall it's 2/5 for me and I'll try it but can't see me subbing for a second month.
are you sure you get both tyran and forti on a +10? i read it as you get forti at +4 and then tryan on a +10 but not both? and then that rotates weekly then you get both forti and tyran on a +12?
+4/+10 is either fort/tyrannical, or tyrannical/fort, rotating weekly. So if you only do +4, it'd be fort, tyrannical, fort, etc. If you do +10, it's both all the time. At +12 the +2 affix is deleted and instead enemies have an additional +20% hp and do +20% more damage. It's all stupidly convoluted and the new +2 seasonal affix is terrible to boot.
Quazii, I think your influence on this game is very valuable. I watched your last video about this topic, which really was a video essay. And it showed clearly what and why needs to be changed. This style of criticism seems to have really helped the devs understand what the players need and how they respond, and it seems they have really listened.
I hope they get the fort+tyr balancing right. I like @Quazii WoW suggestion of not incresing Bosses lives (or just with a lower scaling), as if you nowadays play a high key on tyr week you need ppl to spec into ST/funneling to get the bossfights done within a certain time. As those ppl mostly have to spec out of MT, its hard if you have fortified at the same time and not all classes can play a "good" mid build with decent ST+MT. Anyway loving the direction Blizz is going there right now!
here's my idea of m+ rewards ksm mount (2k score) > shoulder/head glow (2.5k) > class set recolor (3k score) > glad mount recolor or new mount (Not a recolor of ksm pls) (3.5k) > tittle
I've been asking for no affixes since they introduced M+ in Legion. I would also like the ability to play the same dungeon repeatedly without it downgrading. It's nice to have a 4-hour run with friends focusing on perfecting a dungeon. Make it so it doesn't downgrade below 12 so people can practice their routes and deal with abilities without worrying about low-level affixes.
Now change the keystone key mechanisms itself, give it charges before depleting, let us pick between 3 for reroll, if you complete all at X level then your key can’t deplete below X, anything to get more keys listed
What if they made Tyrannical a health increase, but the boss damage gets increased up to %30 or something as he takes damage? Could be an interesting take where you save some cooldowns for the final damage push rather than try to burst them down from the get go?
Although, I can already feel the new pain of 90% of pugs disbanding at the first death of a single player. Not to mention, the much too ambitious goal of "training" people in pugs to kick casts by simply adding more casts that need to be kicked. Pug life didn't get any easier here. LOL
As a healer playing in 1% range, only doing pugs this is the best change ever. I could only push some weeks and if there were not enough keys listed it was still gg for me, even tho it was push week.
@@azizmarhoomi2655 Exactly. I was kind of hoping for a fix regarding that. I suppose I'll just level one of each class to 70 and then wait to see what the meta is and level that toon so I can get invited to groups. Not a good scene at all.
@@needcoffeebrb i don’t think there is anything blizz can do regarding meta beside vigorous tuning, especially in the affixes department. It’s all about players perception and realization that you don’t need meta comp for average keys.
Thank god they are reducing the viability of death skips. Casual player shouldn't be expected know where and how you do a death skip for every dungeon. When I go in, I don't wanna die so death skips being a rewarding tactic made no sense to me.
I mean I'm all for getting rid of death skips entirely , I mean i know its nice to have some out the box tactics to get through but to me its like exposing a flaw in the dungeon, its fine to skip mobs or have multiple ways through the dungeon but death skips to me shouldn't be part of the game.
If they are not going to change the graveyards mentality it means that with the new affix it would increase the number of leavers after a handful of deaths 🫢 even more than now. I hope it’s not the case.
Seriously. I would love to know casual players opinions watching/reading. Is this really THAT good for you? What do you think? it's me or you just don't care. Are you playing more after this change? In our discord most people (casual players) don't really care about this, 3 of them literally said: "MEH" when i asked. Gonna link this video to them tomorrow.
A very easy reward between "Portals" and Title, would be to pick an arbitrary rating between those points, or a certain key level to complete everything on, and then add a recolour of that season's Mythic Level Tier Set. PVPers get their own tier recolour, raiders get the OG tier set, if they're finally gearing towards M+ being a full blown pillar of gameplay, give it it's own tier colour!
@@hmilgrim I’m not suggesting rewards should necessarily be ‘equal’, but simply recolouring an existing tier set is easier than adding something ‘new’ as a reward between portals and title to grind for
My only ask is that they keep the seasonal even acter 12+ ALONG with the 20% buff to the dungeons. I enjoy the seasonals and don't want them to go away when I'm pushing higher keys. Also, 15 secs per death is just horrid. It's not going to make people play better, people are still going to play just as bad as now and pugs will break up even more after a full wipe even in lower keys.
I’m a player that exists on both end of the spectrum. I always get 3k ip, KSM, and portals and then push harder (13ish) I play every week to get vault rewards and to push my personal best. I’m generally positive about these changes but do have concerns: 1. Challengers peril is too high. I timed a 12 yesterday but the death count would have pushed it into untimed territory. 10 seconds is more fair. 2. I worry the rank 2 affixes will never get feedback and could end up being very bad since the top players won’t be complaining about them.
Hey mate hope your fine? Can you please give a Feedback about SP in tww? Still a M+ Meta Class? An you will make a full WA Package for TWW M+? about stuns and Spell inc? ty
quick question dude - when i import your details its transparent , is there an easy way to fill it with a black background like your own on stream shows . Really appreciate all you do 😎
People who do vault keys now get to deplete a lot more keys as tyrannical is always active with fort so you cant be slow on trash, forced to do even more mechanics by the level 2 affix both of which can easily wipe a group in seconds and get to be extra punished when dying. Changes are great for high keys, but +10 keys will be a much bigger nightmare than even now. Interesting that devs focus on improving the experience of the people who will play regardless (high keys), but making the experience of low key groups who wont bother queuing a second time when Frenzied affix wipes the floor with them and slaps a -2 minutes on their timer.
But vault keys won’t be 10’s. Vault keys are 8’s. So if you have no faith in pugs then you can still get your vault. I don’t really see the issue. I pug a lot of keys and pugs seem to be just fine on both tyran and fort. I mean pretty much ++ every 11 that goes basically normally. Even if the dps is low, or we wipe once, the timer is still pretty free. I think having both affixes on 10+ will be tough, but totally pug able. After all I’ll take fort, tyran + kiss/curse seasonal over entangling bolstering tyran. I mean sanguine itself will add more time to your fort runs than spending an extra 90 seconds on each boss.
@@Lyscian420 Vault keys are 10 otherwise you waste crests and loot from the runs. The issue isnt with fort and tyra, its when its both fort and tyra. Pugging week 1-2 keys is pretty bad. Its great that sanguine/bolst were removed, but they are now replaced with the balls and frenzied. Most pugs around vault range dont even know they can take CC, let alone hold it for a specific moment.
I like these new ones, though I do miss the hard challenges of BFA. I was in the top 10 of disc priest healers on a high pop west coast server in BFA, and earned over 6 million gold doing carries. M+ was popular in legion and BFA despite qualitative challenges, not just really high scaling. You couldn’t push as high in those days.
I have quite a bit of issue with deaths being more punishing in M+. One of the reasons I stopped doing keys once I got to +20s, was the amount of toxicity that comes with wanting to push higher keys. Having M+ be more punishing increases the likelihood of players shitting on each other for every little mistake made.
I don't think its viable to push +20s with a bunch of strangers without voice comms. in the event u or your mates still get toxicity for every little mistakes made its time to reconsider who are your party members causing it. general context if you make a choice to actively play with elitist who make zero mistakes expect strong feedbacks when mistakes are made. with all these being said the change of increasing death timer is something within player's control which is always a good change when compared to some insane affix like sanguine.
@@Vhaldr I definitely agree with you. I personally think that dungeons being punishing isn't the issue at it's core tbf. I mostly think that M+ score is the bigger issue. I understand that there's a want for a solid way to vet players for groups with higher keys, but that score makes people want to min max their +12. I'd get declined for keys even in the 11-15 range for simply being 1.9k instead of 2k. It's an artificial number that I feel hurts more than it helps. Idk a great way to solve this problem, but I don't like the current system.
Seems like a cleaner choice to only have one moving piece on the keys on the way up the ladder. (Assend/Frenzy)>Fort>Challenger>Tyran>InfinityNBeyond What being said... Bring back Reaping!!
I'm most excited about removed bursting. It forced you having a priest this weeks for mass dispel. I would take that change over any of the other changes.
Always appreciate the info! One note though, from how I read it, at +10 fortified and tyrannical will still be on a weekly rotation and not both together.
I have a theory. They were planning on doing this all along. Leaving in the painful affixes and creating the new ones which were just “meh”, was all a gimmick in order to get the M+ community really stoked!
Man, I love your channel! Your videos are always top-notch: structured very well, well-articulated, with chapters for everything, a very balanced view, and well-reasoned arguments. Such a joy to watch every time! I do hope there will be some changes with the seasons though. A bit of change is still nice!
@@ScorpionP2C They should do that. And i'm pretty sure it will be optional. So you can run using premade groups if you want. This feature will come at some point so get used to the idea now.
I like the bargain, I love interrupting when I play DPS, makes me feel like I contributed, lol. And an affix that makes you have to interrupt, is better than the kiss/curse ones that make it less likely for X class to be picked Y week.
I always wondered with how to make professions valuable as well not just for sellers view. Your toon should get incentives if you max out a profession level. Otherwise won't even bother. Don't we used to have this before? Like if you max out enchanting you should get a certain % of stats buff or etc.
Now IF they make the portals account wide aswell, you might have an amazing expansion. I don't mind pushing on 1 character but not on all my alts. But those portals make it so you feel like you need to push on every single alt aswell. Let me unlock them on my main and let me use them on my alts.
The best win we had in M+ in 8 years was when Blizzard removed the 3 chests in Legion and replaced it to a guaranteed piece of gear for every 3 levels of key, giving a guaranteed piece of loot to every member of the group at 15 and some member even receiving 2 at higher keys, everything has been downhill since then.
i feel like everyone is taking crazy pills, Fort+tyrn+20%, and -75secs on a wipe, this isn't what M+ players have been waiting for, none of the pervious affixes no matter how annoying/unfun and stupid to deal with remotely cost you to spend GCDs of a similar level. glad things are back to a single week, glad we don't have insane M+ affix clutter during a 16+ key, but the entire part of the M+ playerbase that enjoyed pushing keys have to hold their breath to see if blizzard balances this correctly, world top teams were only doing 6-8s on beta and complaining about how bad they made certain dungeons, take those bad certain dungeons and add Fort+tyrn+20% dmg/HP and being punished harshly because someone died because they cut avoidance %s by half.
There should be no disconnect they need to or if they do already great but pay someone to just go thru socials and see the general thought of the community and listen. The people who spearhead the community like Quazii, should be watched and taken into account when adjusting the game. Ik they can't change every single thing but if the whole community doesn't liks something they should know and do something ab it quickly
M+ is like playing Dark souls either u get to know mechanics / pattern and gitgud or just deinstall the game. ALSO it is a really good attempt in making M+ environment better and more consistent and easier to get into due to the affixes that caused majority of player to not do it further or at all to give it a shot now. I like the changes and now we gonna see tuning
@@WeirdGamerName69 very few people actually follow whats going on, most probably heard/read somewhere that shaman bad and now they'll keep saying it to get upvotes until they hear about a new thing
Great changes, but still confusing with what comes at different levels etc. Just remove affixes, tyrannical and fortified and up what level is required to get he best loot, then we're good.
Whoever is in charge right now is finally enabling/forcing devs to listen and it's very refreshing. The game will never be perfect (no game is) but man, it feels good to know good news is becoming more common than ever. And yea, thank the lord they understand which affixes fucking suck and how anything under +10 felt like awkward padding. (at least to me)
these changes are great, but I hate that it's literally impossible to get myth track trinkets and apparently they're not changing it. it should be possible to get myth track trinkets (and maybe only trinkets) from 12 and above
Add a transmog for 3k and a weapon illusion for 3500 or something like that. I just stop at portals cause i don’t care about my rank, but this new system ill def try to push and play with friends.
High keys are not for me, so it sounds like I'm still waiting to find out what affixes will now replace those that are gone in low keys. But I'm just happy Sanguine is gone. As a tank, frost week/holy week/bleed week would not have affected me much, but boy was that an horrible HORRIBLE idea for pugs! Glad they scrapped that too, that was pure PUG misery.
Respawns should ALWAYS be after you kill a boss, that becomes the next checkpoint. It makes killing a boss an achievement and a sigh of relief in higher keys.
super true
This is good in almost all cases. In some dungeon designs, it is a longer run back from some bosses (like Throne of Tides) rather than just the entrance
Best i can do is start of the dungeon with possible small checkpoint if you have the right covenant
Add a transmog set for 3k and and weapon illusion for like 3500 or something like that
100%. nothing sucks more this expansion than the absurdly long run backs. Some of them are so long that they literally mean the difference between timing the key or not, even if you DO recover well from dying or wiping.
My issue with M+ was bricking keys. Same problem with Ranked Arena that I had when I was 2400+. You spend more time finding a group than actually playing.. In M+ you spend forever finding a group then it bricks on first boss and you're left standing around with your dick in your hand and a key that is now lower that NO ONE your rating wants to push...
That's why I never pug.
This comment needs way more upvotes. It maybe doesnt matter for premade groups that much. But it would make running with a pug so much more fun.
@@thiloramke3320 I am not saying this to brag but to express that I know what I am talking about. I played M+ to 20+ on all in Season 1 of DF and finished at top ~1.5% of priest healers. I did that entirely pugging and that’s a big problem and I’ll tell you why. There is a HUGE player desert between top 98th percentile and 99th percentile in every form of the game. I can pug to 3.2k IO pretty easily but after that there are almost no people that are on your level to play with so it’s nearly impossible to find a group. There are a lot of people doing 20s that can’t do a 25 then there are legit teams that are doing 30s that don’t want to play with you cuz you’re lower than them. The SAME thing happened in SL when I was big into RBGs and quit playing them too… It was pretty easy to get to 2000-2200 rating, but getting to 2400 was nearly impossible because you spent 2+ hours forming a single group of people around your rating. There were a lot of 2k-2.2k that would join your team and suck but finding 10 2.3k+ players was nearly impossible. Then you hit 2400 and there is a 400 rating desert where there is no one to play with. You’ve reached max pug rating. The true premade teams for 2800+ don’t want to play with a lowly 2400. And before anyone says anything yes, I’ve tried VERY hard to make premade groups. I’ve spent countless hours working to find people and it never pans out. The only form of play that people seem willing to plan around IRL is raiding.
You'll get more of that in TWW with the +7 death punish mechanic.
there are bricks in every sport and every game man, how do you intend to not have those from time to time? lol um K... you run pugs right? Bricks will never stop man... find a 5 man group... dont join a pug, have the key fail, and say it Blizzards fault.. PUHAHAHA LET me guess... u want to fail the run but keep your same key? you want some cheese with that WHINE?
Removing bursting is actually big for lower alt pug keys. That shit was popping people left and right
It’s actually fantastic! Can we now make healing fun again, pretty please?
no fun allowed for healers, sorry
dont know what spec u play but healing is actually pretty fun this season, atleast the most fun we had in a long time.
As a mid range M+ player I am not quite able to hit title but also play much higher keys than the max reward (10), I would LOVE to get some form of cosmetic for doing like 15s let the sweaty title players have like the sick red mog, give me the slightly less cool one, but give me something
Agreed . A gladiator recolor mount at 3000 rio or 3.4k
Mid Range? +15s?? Isnt that like ..Top 5% of players ...
@@Spike-xv1ts 15 is insanely high in season 4
Are you sating you did 5s? 15 is last seasons 25s 😂
what appearance are u talking about for doign +15s? the legion one?
That win because of u guys . Thx alot ❤
Omg, Quazii saving the game with his feedback! 👏
Great video. If i had to make a single change I would say give keys charges like 3 charges before it depletes, this would help with trolls joining then leaving, or joining and leaving if you wipe even once.
I think having a season at the end of each expansion that the dev team runs wild with experiments is an absolute no brainer. Even if it does not work, it is easy to make it up to the player base with a prepatch, etc, and it would allow the next expansion to be a lot more polished.
Ya ur right completely here, this is free real estate to cause whatever Shakeup
I've never seen Quazii so happy, it's fanstastic, the energy is contagious
Yeah, seeing Quazii, Dratnos, and others being legitimately excited is rubbing off on me. I'm genuinely getting hyped now for mythic plus. Giant win for blizzard
@@governmentghost01 Why they wouldn't be happy they are content creators only for wow and nothing more, that's their job.
@@ZondaRbg They wouldn't be happy like they wasn't in Shadowlands when the game was on its arse and half the streamers quit the game, so its nice to see after years that the best of best content creators are hyped , so hes obviously happy because the game looks good again but they haven't been this hyped for years that's the difference.
"You finally get to date the person you wanted to date. That you have been having a crush on for the longest time. And then on the first date the person tells you there is a downside. I have a curfew at 11:00 or else my dad who does mixed martial arts is going to kick your ass."
NGL think Quazii is lowkey a comedy genius
@@PlusManaor has dated this person
Blizzard: We removed Raging!
Also Blizzard: We introduced Frenzied...
YES - please give the players who do like 10-15s something they can work towards as well. Even just an illusion or something when hitting all keys on 15 or something would be a great start - its way better than having nothing at all in the area from portals to the title!
Idk if I'm burning meal in the kitchen with this one but maybe tyrannical could give haste to the boss?
Fight would be faster, require more thought with defensives instead of making it longer. Ofc it would have to be tested again so 2 mechanics don't overlap in unfun way
Rewards beyond portals can be really easy, just increase the qty of aspects beyond 12s. And if you want to really cook, let them be Warband currency.
I still don't know why affixes exist at all. They were literally a bandaid for a problem that doesn't exist anymore. We used to play the same 8 dungeons for an entire expansion which is where blizzard needed to do something because it was boring. Affixes were the bandaid.
The long term solution needs to be simply giving us more new dungeons. If they can create new raids every content patch, then they can create at least a few new dungeons. You'd think that since M+ is literally the biggest feature keeping the game alive they'd actually invest into it.
why not have both. no affixes really does make things easy, which we dont want
@@JackJackKcajifyyou don’t want . 99% of the playerbase do as you can see from the feedback. People also want myth track gear to drop from +6 instead of +8 . People also want mythic raid to not drop gear and for it to just be a challenge for top players
This is blatantly false lmao@@JackJackKcajify
@@Thrall966 mythic raid to have no rewards? your not even talking sense. lmao.
@@JackJackKcajify some people, not everyone, have advocated for mythic raid to drop cosmetic only rewards (i.e. first boss drops wrist xmog, 2nd drops boots, etc. etc. final boss drops shoulders)
A more reasonable take I think is for the final boss to only have cosmetic rewards, but the earlier bosses stay as they are. Imo it feels a bit silly for the last boss in mythic to drop gear rewards. Like, you just killed the final boss on the hardest difficulty and your reward is... a slight damage increase IF you are lucky enough to get a drop. A slight damage increase which you don't need because you just killed the hardest boss...on the hardest difficulty. If the reward was Xmog or a mount, or a spell/weapon effect that'd be an actual reward.
Everyone has a different idea of what they want though, there is no "correct" or perfect answer. Hope this helps explain why some of us have this idea.
0:30 just an fyi pouring alcohol on the ground for the dead is a sign of respect so we don’t wanna be doing that for bolstering, raging, sanguine
For the 'dead homies'
But just to clarify, majority of people will be doing up to +5s (+15 equivalent) for keystone master right? So most people won’t have to worry about the affixes after +5s.
To get KSM in S4, you want +6s at a minimum.
+6s award a bit less than 200 points if the highest among the base affix pair (Tyrannical or Fortified) for that dungeon, otherwise it's 1/3rd of that. Meaning, if you get a +6 on both Tyrannical and Fortified that's less than 266 points (200 + 66). You need an average of 250 points per dungeon.
Realistically, you'll probably have a mix of +8s, +7s, +6s, and below before getting KSM unless you hard commit to just filling out +6.
In other words, assuming they don't change the ratings system, you'll almost certainly definitely have to deal with the new +7 affix if KSM is your goal.
Was chatting with some buddies and someone suggested the following change as well:
- If you complete a key, but over time, you get the key back at the same key level. The main benefit will obviously be to enable groups to continue attempting a key at a certain level. Separately, it will solve the concern that if keys do not deplete, people will just try massive initial pulls and just reset if it does not go well. It will also encourage people to practice keys further into the dungeon.
#completedoesntdeplete
MDI will be much easier to follow without having to homework affix mixes for all the dungeons
I think the problem with MDI is the inevitable boringness of what a META does to the audience when it comes to a competitive setting.
Teams participating are incentivized to play the same comps for optimal gameplay because there is a money incentive to do so and it is simply not worth participating in the MDI if there is no money incentive.
@@bojnebojnebojne If there wasn't money involved, the key pushing scene would still be alive and well. There's still a sizeable community of Sly Cooper speedrunners. They're competing for no money, and the ''meta'' never changes. Competition will always exist, affixes and prize pools don't change that fundamental fact.
@@TempoNama Money is always involved in a competitive setting, thinking it isn't is being ignorant.
@@bojnebojnebojnehe saying still exist without it. 5head
@@panda8bamboo161 Well duh, there's always going to be people who do things for the sake of doing it.
What i'm getting at is that the competitive scene wouldn't be as big or have as high quality of play and skilled players without a monetary incentive.
And as a response to the lack of quality and player skill, the audience will gradually lose interest as a result.
That's what happens in real sports as well. When the quality of a sport degrade, so does the interest from the audience...
That's why lower divisions of any sport have a lower audience rating.
It's basic as fk and debating it is stupid and ignorant.
Monetary incentives are necessary to keep a competitive scene going long term.
Im aligned with you 100%.
This is a VERY good cook. I really appreciate when they do try things, and i cant wait to see what else they cook in this kitchen.
As a community, lets make sure to reward the behavior we wanted to see.
I never had much issue with Sanguine, but it was extremely annoying when casting mobs wouldn't move out of it.
Thanks Quazii , fantastic video and I’m very glad for these changes !
Yes please add cosmetic appearances back to keys 10+ challenge mode armour and wep recolours to start is fine.
This feels like a good change, very pleased they were willing to rethink the affix system.
Thanks for your part in it : )
Imo keep the reactive Affixes like entangling, volcanic etc. These add at least some variation to M+ and avoid it becoming completely stale.
Ya I think they made a huge mistake, every week is now same same. Maybe this goes live but they did not put enough effort in for sure if were this close and this is all they got. Overall it's 2/5 for me and I'll try it but can't see me subbing for a second month.
are you sure you get both tyran and forti on a +10? i read it as you get forti at +4 and then tryan on a +10 but not both? and then that rotates weekly then you get both forti and tyran on a +12?
+4/+10 is either fort/tyrannical, or tyrannical/fort, rotating weekly. So if you only do +4, it'd be fort, tyrannical, fort, etc. If you do +10, it's both all the time. At +12 the +2 affix is deleted and instead enemies have an additional +20% hp and do +20% more damage.
It's all stupidly convoluted and the new +2 seasonal affix is terrible to boot.
Quazii, I think your influence on this game is very valuable. I watched your last video about this topic, which really was a video essay. And it showed clearly what and why needs to be changed. This style of criticism seems to have really helped the devs understand what the players need and how they respond, and it seems they have really listened.
I hope they get the fort+tyr balancing right. I like @Quazii WoW suggestion of not incresing Bosses lives (or just with a lower scaling), as if you nowadays play a high key on tyr week you need ppl to spec into ST/funneling to get the bossfights done within a certain time. As those ppl mostly have to spec out of MT, its hard if you have fortified at the same time and not all classes can play a "good" mid build with decent ST+MT.
Anyway loving the direction Blizz is going there right now!
here's my idea of m+ rewards
ksm mount (2k score) > shoulder/head glow (2.5k) > class set recolor (3k score) > glad mount recolor or new mount (Not a recolor of ksm pls) (3.5k) > tittle
I've been asking for no affixes since they introduced M+ in Legion. I would also like the ability to play the same dungeon repeatedly without it downgrading. It's nice to have a 4-hour run with friends focusing on perfecting a dungeon. Make it so it doesn't downgrade below 12 so people can practice their routes and deal with abilities without worrying about low-level affixes.
So they have retired ALL of the affixes? Not just the really annoying ones, all the +5 affixes are gone too
Now change the keystone key mechanisms itself, give it charges before depleting, let us pick between 3 for reroll, if you complete all at X level then your key can’t deplete below X, anything to get more keys listed
The jump from 11 to 12 is going to be pretty massive. Fortified, tyrannical, and guile all stacked on top of one another.
That lvl is for 1% of people. So not for you
@@hanzomain8302 I mean I'm still going to do it as I'm pushing 14 and up currently. Just something I took note of is all.
Thanks for continuing to be such a positive presence in the community. Really enjoy your content.
What if they made Tyrannical a health increase, but the boss damage gets increased up to %30 or something as he takes damage? Could be an interesting take where you save some cooldowns for the final damage push rather than try to burst them down from the get go?
Although, I can already feel the new pain of 90% of pugs disbanding at the first death of a single player. Not to mention, the much too ambitious goal of "training" people in pugs to kick casts by simply adding more casts that need to be kicked. Pug life didn't get any easier here. LOL
Pug life 100% got worse here
Well, glass half full: Sanguine is gone! Every tank on Earth is drinking to that today. 😂
As a healer playing in 1% range, only doing pugs this is the best change ever. I could only push some weeks and if there were not enough keys listed it was still gg for me, even tho it was push week.
Thanks for video. Do you have any links to your UI/add on set up!?
yes in description of video - all free (:
As a casual I gotta ask a question.. Do I now have to do 12's instead of 10s?
I think this means the "meta", once found, will be locked in for the season. No variety in classes.
Which is what exactly happening already
@@azizmarhoomi2655 Exactly. I was kind of hoping for a fix regarding that. I suppose I'll just level one of each class to 70 and then wait to see what the meta is and level that toon so I can get invited to groups. Not a good scene at all.
@@needcoffeebrb i don’t think there is anything blizz can do regarding meta beside vigorous tuning, especially in the affixes department.
It’s all about players perception and realization that you don’t need meta comp for average keys.
@@azizmarhoomi2655 Yeah. I just don't see them coming to that realization, as sad as that is.
Finally the high keys have no deviance... i have waited for this soooo long. now it is finally actually competetive.
Idk I'm the opposite but my highest rating was 2863 and i did like 21's and 22's alot. Every week is now the same... that's probably checkmate imo
MAAN are u happy in this video, can tell you are absolutly and completely in love with this change. Happy for you!
Thank god they are reducing the viability of death skips. Casual player shouldn't be expected know where and how you do a death skip for every dungeon. When I go in, I don't wanna die so death skips being a rewarding tactic made no sense to me.
Death skips are not done at casual play today. The new +7 affix (+15s per death) will only encourage casuals to instantly disband on the first wipe.
I mean I'm all for getting rid of death skips entirely , I mean i know its nice to have some out the box tactics to get through but to me its like exposing a flaw in the dungeon, its fine to skip mobs or have multiple ways through the dungeon but death skips to me shouldn't be part of the game.
The swift action tells me Ion wasn't really sold on the initial revamp. This iteration was the fall back plan.
If they are not going to change the graveyards mentality it means that with the new affix it would increase the number of leavers after a handful of deaths 🫢 even more than now. I hope it’s not the case.
Such a big win! Well done to you as well for calling it all out. We get there, together. :)
Thanks Quazii for your continued and aspiring effort and videos! This a great change and win for all =D
Seriously. I would love to know casual players opinions watching/reading. Is this really THAT good for you? What do you think? it's me or you just don't care. Are you playing more after this change?
In our discord most people (casual players) don't really care about this, 3 of them literally said: "MEH" when i asked. Gonna link this video to them tomorrow.
A very easy reward between "Portals" and Title, would be to pick an arbitrary rating between those points, or a certain key level to complete everything on, and then add a recolour of that season's Mythic Level Tier Set. PVPers get their own tier recolour, raiders get the OG tier set, if they're finally gearing towards M+ being a full blown pillar of gameplay, give it it's own tier colour!
Not every pillar is equal or needs to be equal in rewards, raiders don't get portals to the raids at all.
@@hmilgrim I’m not suggesting rewards should necessarily be ‘equal’, but simply recolouring an existing tier set is easier than adding something ‘new’ as a reward between portals and title to grind for
My only ask is that they keep the seasonal even acter 12+ ALONG with the 20% buff to the dungeons.
I enjoy the seasonals and don't want them to go away when I'm pushing higher keys.
Also, 15 secs per death is just horrid. It's not going to make people play better, people are still going to play just as bad as now and pugs will break up even more after a full wipe even in lower keys.
Can you still deplete keys?
Hell yeah Quazii, so psyched for M+ in TWW!
I’m a player that exists on both end of the spectrum. I always get 3k ip, KSM, and portals and then push harder (13ish) I play every week to get vault rewards and to push my personal best. I’m generally positive about these changes but do have concerns:
1. Challengers peril is too high. I timed a 12 yesterday but the death count would have pushed it into untimed territory. 10 seconds is more fair.
2. I worry the rank 2 affixes will never get feedback and could end up being very bad since the top players won’t be complaining about them.
Hey mate hope your fine? Can you please give a Feedback about SP in tww? Still a M+ Meta Class?
An you will make a full WA Package for TWW M+? about stuns and Spell inc?
ty
7:40 can I dominate mind them and give my group the buff
7:50
As a Survival Hunter, all the orbs for me !
quick question dude - when i import your details its transparent , is there an easy way to fill it with a black background like your own on stream shows . Really appreciate all you do 😎
People who do vault keys now get to deplete a lot more keys as tyrannical is always active with fort so you cant be slow on trash, forced to do even more mechanics by the level 2 affix both of which can easily wipe a group in seconds and get to be extra punished when dying. Changes are great for high keys, but +10 keys will be a much bigger nightmare than even now. Interesting that devs focus on improving the experience of the people who will play regardless (high keys), but making the experience of low key groups who wont bother queuing a second time when Frenzied affix wipes the floor with them and slaps a -2 minutes on their timer.
But vault keys won’t be 10’s. Vault keys are 8’s. So if you have no faith in pugs then you can still get your vault.
I don’t really see the issue. I pug a lot of keys and pugs seem to be just fine on both tyran and fort. I mean pretty much ++ every 11 that goes basically normally. Even if the dps is low, or we wipe once, the timer is still pretty free.
I think having both affixes on 10+ will be tough, but totally pug able. After all I’ll take fort, tyran + kiss/curse seasonal over entangling bolstering tyran. I mean sanguine itself will add more time to your fort runs than spending an extra 90 seconds on each boss.
@@Lyscian420 Vault keys are 10 otherwise you waste crests and loot from the runs. The issue isnt with fort and tyra, its when its both fort and tyra. Pugging week 1-2 keys is pretty bad. Its great that sanguine/bolst were removed, but they are now replaced with the balls and frenzied. Most pugs around vault range dont even know they can take CC, let alone hold it for a specific moment.
@@breikio if you minmax crests that much, you should be able to handle that 10. Stop crying pointlessly
I like these new ones, though I do miss the hard challenges of BFA. I was in the top 10 of disc priest healers on a high pop west coast server in BFA, and earned over 6 million gold doing carries. M+ was popular in legion and BFA despite qualitative challenges, not just really high scaling. You couldn’t push as high in those days.
how bad would it be and how much degen behavior would happen if +12 award myth track items, maybe later in the season?
I have quite a bit of issue with deaths being more punishing in M+.
One of the reasons I stopped doing keys once I got to +20s, was the amount of toxicity that comes with wanting to push higher keys. Having M+ be more punishing increases the likelihood of players shitting on each other for every little mistake made.
I don't think its viable to push +20s with a bunch of strangers without voice comms. in the event u or your mates still get toxicity for every little mistakes made its time to reconsider who are your party members causing it. general context if you make a choice to actively play with elitist who make zero mistakes expect strong feedbacks when mistakes are made. with all these being said the change of increasing death timer is something within player's control which is always a good change when compared to some insane affix like sanguine.
@@Vhaldr I definitely agree with you. I personally think that dungeons being punishing isn't the issue at it's core tbf. I mostly think that M+ score is the bigger issue. I understand that there's a want for a solid way to vet players for groups with higher keys, but that score makes people want to min max their +12. I'd get declined for keys even in the 11-15 range for simply being 1.9k instead of 2k. It's an artificial number that I feel hurts more than it helps. Idk a great way to solve this problem, but I don't like the current system.
Toxic people going to be toxic no matter the key level, no game change will ever fix that unfortunately.
Was my first thought on that death counter increase. That's going to be a toxicity pumping machine. TWW M+ looking pretty grim for puggers
@@MrMadman111 Ok sure, but there are ways to limit that toxicity and not incentivize players to be toxic.
Great changes for M+. The game mode is saved. Very excited.
Overall big W. But I would enjoy a little weekly variety by having tyran/fort alternating. However fort/tyran scaling should diminish as keys increase
Would love the idea of S4 as experimental season with new affixes, and affix changes. Maybe it does incentify more peepz to keep on playing
Seems like a cleaner choice to only have one moving piece on the keys on the way up the ladder.
(Assend/Frenzy)>Fort>Challenger>Tyran>InfinityNBeyond
What being said... Bring back Reaping!!
I'm most excited about removed bursting. It forced you having a priest this weeks for mass dispel. I would take that change over any of the other changes.
Always appreciate the info! One note though, from how I read it, at +10 fortified and tyrannical will still be on a weekly rotation and not both together.
Nope, it clearly states in the blizzard thread it will be both affixes together from 10+
14:45 sounds good balance, but isnt it ultra boring?
I have a theory. They were planning on doing this all along. Leaving in the painful affixes and creating the new ones which were just “meh”, was all a gimmick in order to get the M+ community really stoked!
Man, I love your channel! Your videos are always top-notch: structured very well, well-articulated, with chapters for everything, a very balanced view, and well-reasoned arguments. Such a joy to watch every time!
I do hope there will be some changes with the seasons though. A bit of change is still nice!
hes a blizzard simp
They need m+ 1-15 lfg
This
there is no mythic 1, and no they dont need to do that
learn to use premade groups filters
@@ScorpionP2C They should do that. And i'm pretty sure it will be optional. So you can run using premade groups if you want. This feature will come at some point so get used to the idea now.
@@l_Nightbot_l how about no
I like the bargain, I love interrupting when I play DPS, makes me feel like I contributed, lol. And an affix that makes you have to interrupt, is better than the kiss/curse ones that make it less likely for X class to be picked Y week.
I always wondered with how to make professions valuable as well not just for sellers view. Your toon should get incentives if you max out a profession level. Otherwise won't even bother. Don't we used to have this before? Like if you max out enchanting you should get a certain % of stats buff or etc.
the problem with sanguine is that we dont have enough knockbacks in our classes tool kit to prevent mobs from swimming in the pool.
That will probably be the main complaint for Bargain: Ascendant
There are enough, you just refuse to take out of meta classes that have these knockbacks
More that so many recent mobs are immune to CC. Frustrating as fuck when a mob decides to cast and refuse to move as Sanguine is dropping
@@GW2Zaruz That's on you mate, you gotta focus these ones first ^^"
As a rdruid with typhoon it was a meh affix. Bad tanks are bad tanks
Quazii is so cute in this video. He is so excited about key changes now I am too. ❤
a big win after years. you guys need to push massive feedback like this.
Thank you again Quazii for making an awesome video.
TWW is going to be very refreshing. At first it was looking like a post nightmare, but now it looks like a piece of candy for everyone.
They should add something like the pvp saddles. Also rank names for the ratings like pvp has.
Now IF they make the portals account wide aswell, you might have an amazing expansion. I don't mind pushing on 1 character but not on all my alts. But those portals make it so you feel like you need to push on every single alt aswell. Let me unlock them on my main and let me use them on my alts.
Quazzi the goat. M+ is saved and we're here for it.
The best win we had in M+ in 8 years was when Blizzard removed the 3 chests in Legion and replaced it to a guaranteed piece of gear for every 3 levels of key, giving a guaranteed piece of loot to every member of the group at 15 and some member even receiving 2 at higher keys, everything has been downhill since then.
i feel like everyone is taking crazy pills, Fort+tyrn+20%, and -75secs on a wipe, this isn't what M+ players have been waiting for, none of the pervious affixes no matter how annoying/unfun and stupid to deal with remotely cost you to spend GCDs of a similar level.
glad things are back to a single week, glad we don't have insane M+ affix clutter during a 16+ key, but the entire part of the M+ playerbase that enjoyed pushing keys have to hold their breath to see if blizzard balances this correctly, world top teams were only doing 6-8s on beta and complaining about how bad they made certain dungeons, take those bad certain dungeons and add Fort+tyrn+20% dmg/HP and being punished harshly because someone died because they cut avoidance %s by half.
great video, you dont know how much i laughed about the intro 🤣, rip affixes!
Orb affix is actually great. Its basically explosion, but it buffs you! Great!
There should be no disconnect they need to or if they do already great but pay someone to just go thru socials and see the general thought of the community and listen. The people who spearhead the community like Quazii, should be watched and taken into account when adjusting the game. Ik they can't change every single thing but if the whole community doesn't liks something they should know and do something ab it quickly
eyy we'll finally be able to focus on dungeon difficulty and mechanics instead of affixes. this could be amazing
i’m so excited bursting is gone it was the only afflix i couldn’t stand
12s and above are gonna be hard as hell. Fort abd tyran AND 20% more health and dmg? That's a huge barrier for pugs.
I want some scaled rewards for 12+ and some constant rewards for 12/15/20... It'll change a lot!
that happy face of Quazii makes me also happy :)
M+ is like playing Dark souls
either u get to know mechanics / pattern and gitgud or just deinstall the game.
ALSO
it is a really good attempt in making M+ environment better and more consistent and easier to get into due to the affixes that caused majority of player to not do it further or at all to give it a shot now.
I like the changes and now we gonna see tuning
Sry shamans blizzard used up all their reading feedback on this one
Nah, they already talk about it, Shaman will get talents rework plus change on Hero talents on Next Build (Next Week)
literally rework coming next week, does my head in that the uneducated will be the loudest complainer in the room
And what is with rogue hero talents? D:
@@WeirdGamerName69 very few people actually follow whats going on, most probably heard/read somewhere that shaman bad and now they'll keep saying it to get upvotes until they hear about a new thing
What shamans ? 😂
Great changes, but still confusing with what comes at different levels etc. Just remove affixes, tyrannical and fortified and up what level is required to get he best loot, then we're good.
When are we going to address the “random armored woman” in every one of his thumbnails XD
you just did. feel any better about yourself?
@@ExValeFor I don’t get why you’re so hostile about my comment. I just don’t like clickbait.
Whoever is in charge right now is finally enabling/forcing devs to listen and it's very refreshing.
The game will never be perfect (no game is) but man, it feels good to know good news is becoming more common than ever.
And yea, thank the lord they understand which affixes fucking suck and how anything under +10 felt like awkward padding. (at least to me)
i hope MS would listen and they does i look forward
these changes are great, but I hate that it's literally impossible to get myth track trinkets and apparently they're not changing it. it should be possible to get myth track trinkets (and maybe only trinkets) from 12 and above
Add a transmog for 3k and a weapon illusion for 3500 or something like that. I just stop at portals cause i don’t care about my rank, but this new system ill def try to push and play with friends.
High keys are not for me, so it sounds like I'm still waiting to find out what affixes will now replace those that are gone in low keys. But I'm just happy Sanguine is gone. As a tank, frost week/holy week/bleed week would not have affected me much, but boy was that an horrible HORRIBLE idea for pugs! Glad they scrapped that too, that was pure PUG misery.