This is a FASCINATING possibility. It actually makes sense of you think about it, even with the relatively small evidence. I mean, take Celene's attempted assassination in Dragon Age Inquisition. Had the Inquisitor not intervened, nobody would have even considered Corypheus' involvement until it was too late. It even could have had the same goals, to destabilize Thedas (through the Mage Rebellion) in order to more easily conquer it when the time was right. Same goes for the Wardens. Even if it wasn't the direct start to the Rebellion, it was at least a Catalyst. A massive symbol that would increase tensions between Templars and Mages. So is it really that much of a stretch that Corypheus began seeding his plans that early in the shadows? Especially given how well his plans would have been concealed without the Inquisitor's interference.
Great video! my favorite head cannon/theory about "Ander was used " were from Ander's Writer Jennifer Hepler. In a podcast she said that spirit/demon are way devious than what most players believe and in Hepler's rejected idea for a DAII DLC (I believe it was the canceled Exodus DLC), where during the dlc Hawke met Justice but it is still in Kristoff's body and had no idea what you were talking about when you brought up him merging with Anders. That is when player realize Anders was tricked and possessed by a demon the whole game (fresh out of tokens podcast, 8/31/2016, 00:40:20).
It could be that all Corypheus had to do was corrupt justice into vengeance in order for vengeance to control Anders - which he admits if youre rivals, not friends.
I had never considered this. I'm very intrigued, though I think my main problem with the theory is just that I like the character of Anders so much and his final action at the chantry was set up so well. It just seemed like it made sense to him as a person. The involvement of Coryphy-fish maybe cheapens it a little? I don't know. Great video! A lot to think on.
I definitely think it can be both. Yes, Anders is a rebel and a revolutionary, but yes also those traits could have been purposefully manipulated and Anders himself chosen because of those traits.
This theory is fascinating, and I think it has a high possibility of being true. It's been stated that the set time for the DLCs in Dragon Age 2, both Mark of The Assassin and Legacy, are set before the end game. Therefore, the Chantry wouldn't've been exploded at that time. There's also another thing. There's a codex entry called "Speculations on Kirkwall" you can find in Legacy that says the following: Codex text The records say Corypheus has been trapped below the Vimmarks since the days of the Tevinter Imperium. Can it be a coincidence that the darkspawn besiege this area more fiercely than anywhere else on the surface of Thedas? Or that Kirkwall, the closest city, suffers from endless plagues of violence, lunacy, human sacrifice, and blood magic? If one studies Kirkwall's public records, it becomes hard to deny that some malevolent force has long shaped its history. Could a darkspawn, even a powerful mage, have such influence even as it slumbers? -From a weathered journal bearing the Grey Wardens' seal From this, I believe that Corypheus has influenced Kirkwall for a long time, and that's why it's been filled with chaos for many years. It would make it possible for Anders to not be brought along but still influenced by Corypheus. In Inquisition, you learn from Bianca during the "Well, Shit" quest that red lyrium is lyrium that's been tainted with the Blight. Where do we first find red lyrium? In Kirkwall, which would be under Corypheus's influence. As he moves, as does his effect on lyrium, thus making the lyrium tainted with the Blight.
There is also a codex entry that you can find during the Legacy DLC that is a journal of a dead explorer or Grey Warden. In it, the explorer states that they believe the reason Kirkwall is always full of strife or on the verge of another crisis is that Corypheus is trapped close to the city and that his influence is making the city a volatile place. So it does make sense that Anders could have been manipulated by both Justice and Corypheus.
Corypheus was confuse whem he woke he didn't have a goal besides escape prison it took some time for him to figure things out and start planning things.You can hear him talking about it in the temple of dummat if you save the templars.
You forgot Laraius' words when the Hawk kills Corypheus: "The prision stands no more, my gratitude you have for my freedom." I have serious doubts if Corypheus was really confused at some point or if it was all staging.
Because of it is Varric's story, I always keep him in my party setup, to make him a viable narrator as an eye witness, but that doesn't mean he didn't lie to Cassandra, it just to make his story is more believable.
I like this theory purely because I love Anders and I’d love him to be redeemed, I feel like he may come back in the future (even if you killed him, Leliana came back, why not Anders too) and he could help our future protagonist??? I dunno I’m just an Anders lover so I’m bias I guess.
I would think if a hooded figure (with Ander's voice) helped the protagonist in DA4 in a quest involving helping mages or just humanitarian. That way it would be ambiguous, for those who slew Anders there is deniability it was him but for those who didn't.... then who else could it be ;)
I've disliked Anders ever since Awakening, but I recently played DA2 for the second time and I have to say, while I still dislike him, his plan worked. I don't think he deserves or needs any kind of redemption, because that would male his actions void. He should stay the martyr he chose to become
Did you even consider the the red lyrium in Kirkwall? Someone in Inquisition (Varric or Cullen?) said that they found lots of red lyrium in Kirkwall (after the story of DA2 ended).
I find this especially interesting because if you had a rivalmance with Anders, you can convince him there are other means than what he's planning, but Justice takes over mid-conversation and Anders blows up the chantry anyway, stating Justice made him do it (Whilst in a friendmance he says him and Justice merged and it was his plan) Which makes this theory even more interesting.
I think they missed a trick with Corypheus and the Venatori. It would have been better had Corypheus been played more openly with anger and despair - and those being reasons why the Venatori would follow him. As in, they know he's a darkspawn, and they know he's one of the 7 magisters but they follow him because they share his anger at what has happened to Tevinter, anger that if the Maker exists effectively he abused absolute power and created centuries of death, destruction, suffering and instability and despair that maybe the Maker doesn't exist at all and that the world, the Fade are hostile, alone, and suffering and evil occur without meaning, purpose or a sense of good to check any of it. Of course this is also fictional, I forgot who said it, but she pointed out that villains are more interesting people in literature but in real life actually good people are far more interesting whereas actual villains are depressingly one or two dimensional.
Kind of late for this one, but I would have to disagree with the theory. 1. Justice would have noticed the influence and tried to interrupt it. 2. Blowing up the Kirkwall Chantry wouldn't actually forward Corypheus' goals. There's no way he could have known what the affects would have been. 3. If Corypheus had been influencing Anders, he would have made him kill Hawke. He certainly would not have made Anders sit there and let Hawke murder-knife him. 4. Anders made excuses for his actions. That means he rationalized it. He had his own motives and reasons, and he was ready to accept his punishment. 5. Corypheus' area of effect was not large enough to affect Anders at all times. In Inquisition, Corypheus had the help of the Nightmare to amplify his influence. 6. Even with the amplified influence in Inquisition, the Wardens were not controlled by Corypheus. They were only fooled. They thought they were hearing the Calling. The only ones Corypheus could control were the mages who were bound to the Nightmare. 7. At no time during Inquisition did Corypheus show the ability to make any Grey Warden kill the Inquisitor, blow something up, or otherwise do his bidding. If he had been able to make Anders set bombs and detonate them, then he certainly could have made another Grey Warden assassinate the Inquisitor.
Also kinda late for this but I just have to say that I'm thankful that someone pointed these out. By the way, I find the 4th one the most interesting and convincing rebuttal for this theory. Anders blowed up the Chantry BECAUSE he was fully aware of what that meant: a symbol of power over the mages AND the excuse Meredith always wanted in order invoke the Right of Anullment. Both motives are made clear on his speech at The Last Straw during the Chantry explosion scene: "The time has come to act. There can be no half-measures. There can be no turning back. There can be no peace." "I removed the chance of compromise, because there is no compromise." And I personally think that Anders' character is about "insurgency against power as the only effective way out" (more like a "desperate radical measure" because Anders tried a less radical with his Manifesto and writings). He's acts were driven by the urge for freedom for the mages. I refuse to see him as just a puppet, I see THAT as HIS motivation, THAT is what HIS character development leads to. Instead, the theory seems to assume that everything is being manipulated, thus, erasing the very sense of "living history", almost implying that if it wasn't for the fact that the characters are part of some complex major scheme, their actions wouldn't have dramatical effects on the world's History. These types of theory looks at historical events (and other events before those) and take into account the already known aftermaths, but forgeting that even though characters can try to predict what their actions will cause (the "IDEAL and expected consequences") they still have NO control (most of the times) over the "REAL and unexpected consequences". And that's how History happens.
I'm of the opinion that it doesn't matter who you take In your party, all companions are assumed to have "been there" at major events. This is particularly suggested a few times in DAI when companions like Bull talk about getting such a rush after killing your first Dragon even if he wasnt in the active party. Same thing with the Winter Palace. I had companions commenting on being there who I never took. Sera, Bull, Solas, Blackwall etc even though I took Cass, Dorian and Varric.
To be fair, Hawke only says that with a romanced Anders, they could just be assuming that you took him everywhere. As for Varric, again it might just be assumed that you took him along, he found the Carta and played a big role in the legacy dlc, he is also a fan favorite. Beside Corhpy isn't the modest type if he did all of that I'm sure we would have had to listen to a monologue about it.
Kelsey Jackson but the problem with influencing all of these people and all he did to Rise and to be able to come back through the taint even though Hawke thought he killed Corphy if you tell all everything then you wouldn’t have an edge so you monologue to all this then you would lose your edge not to mention being an evil genius it’s hard to keep up with al you’ve done especially when people don’t ask specific questions so hey Corphy did you control anders ?lol
David Phariss he wanted to be a god not an evil genius. It's been a while since I played inquisition, but I don't remember Corphy using tactics like that. In fact he very rarely relied on any type of deception. He woke up, raised and army, and said he was going to the black city to be a god. In fact I think his arrogance and pride kept him from doing something as cunning and omitting a big event that that. Solas on the other hand...
@@mysticonthehill so its been even longer since I've played the game, but I think that the deception came from the 'generals'. But sure, it could be. Basic tactic would be to eliminate the biggest threat first, the Templars were trained soldiers who fought magic specifically, and Orlais was the strongest political power. Get people who know how to take them down. However, I'm pretty sure we always knew what was going on fairly quickly. We knew he wanted to be a God within the first hour of the game the rest was just figuring out how he was going to do that.
It's worth noting that Corypheus opened the Breach at the Conclave, a meeting to settle the Mage-Templar War... which Anders helped start. We already know Corypheus has a vested interest in the Mage-Templar War continuing, so having any agents he could stir things up makes sense. Also, I just...always hated the way Anders blew up the Chantry. You could be his love interest, super gung-ho about both killing people and mage liberation, and he *still* hides what he's doing from you when he asks for your help making the bomb. He's shady and extremist in ways that don't make sense, for either Justice or Anders from Awakening, and if they have to retcon this in just to make his character consistent and reasonable then I'll accept it.
An interesting thing that not many Andersmancers seem to have seen is the rivalmance, where Hawke is pro-templar, etc. There is one romance scene when Anders almost tells Hawke what he has done, since he starts to regret it - but Justice takes over and stops him from saying it. So I feel like 'The last straw' was all Justice, even if Anders didn't glow.
This is the best one so far because it actually ties DA2 and Legacy quite well. IMO, had Bioware been allowed to complete development of the game, then Corypheus may have ended up becoming the main antagonist of DA2, instead of Meredith and Orsino both going batshit insane as last minute final boss add-ons. And if it had been released in 2012 instead of 2011, Corypheus would not have to have showed up in DAI at all in order to continue his story. We might well have ended up with a third Magister Sidereal had EA not messed up Bioware game development cycle.
this theory gave me the impression that corypheus's influence on anders was purely accidental. like, the idea to destroy the chantry was a subconscious effect of corypheus's formulating his plan for the events of inquisition and to anders, and any others who had the taint at the time, it may have felt less like noticeable control and more like the wisps of an idea or faint nightmares. i don't think corypheus controlled him, but i do think the effect of corypheus influenced him in honestly subconscious ways that still leave anders very much responsible for the events
i just restarted origins and am playing as a mage; i was reading the codex entry 'Beyond The Veil: Spirits and Demons', and i came across this passage: "Desire demons are more clever, and far more powerful, using all forms of bribery to induce mortals into their realms. Wealth, love, vengeance, whatever lies closest to your heart." O_O
I have been looking for so long for a good Dragon Age lore discussion channel, thank god for this video and this amazing channel! I look forward to all future content
I don't think the 'Varric storytelling is potentially fallible' part of the theory is a good reason for explaining how Anders might have been at where Corypheus was in the Legacy DLC. It's just how things happen in games. Hawke will say certain people were there, even if they weren't, just to serve the game and it's plot. Cassandra will comment on how romantic Varric made the fight between Hawke and the Arishok is, even though we just played it in Varric's telling of the story, and it was mainly you just running around 90% of the time and hitting the Arishok one or two times, before running off again. THE STUFF OF LEGEND(!) Hell, it happens in other Bioware games, too. In ME3, when talking to Wrex about the Rachni Queen, he'll comment on how he was there, even if he wasn't in your party. It doesn't mean anything.
This theory would work better if it isn't constrained by the 4 person party mechanic. Suppose the whole crew comes along, but just some aren't in the lime-light.
that's the problem with games where you can only take a few of your actual party members with you on your team, it is easy to forget that the rest of your people are VERY UNLIKELY to just be standing around twiddling their thumbs back at HQ while a war is waging, whether rampaging qunari, reapers, Klingons, storm troopers, or zombies... they are just likely engaging the enemies in other less critical areas. Hawke, The Warden, the Inquisitor (in this instance) or maybe people like COMMANDER SHEPARD in others ;) are generally on critical missions that MUST succeed, but it doesn't mean your team mates outside your main party are inactive... Wrex probably was there on Noveria for instance, whether he was in Shepard's party or not. But in regards to the Varric's story being partly fabricated story-telling... that would be in character and par for the course for Varric... he DID after all hate and mistrust Cassandra and everything she stood for in DA2 and thru the first half of DA:I ... so I think it is a given that he probably lied to her at least in part thru the story he tells her. He ADMITS as much during inquisition
ye olde probleme of "gameplay versus lore"! it is INCREDIBLY frustrating! i wish games would add-on "...and everyone else was there too" so that THE PLAYER (distinct from the controlled character) remembers that & solidifies where people are at certain events rather than simply leaving it unsaid that gameplay restrictions doth not equal actual story/lore.
Great video! This is the kind of content I enjoy most. Peoples theories, speculation on lore and history and things that could be going on in the background. I could just sit back and mull over this kind of stuff all day. Great job, keep em coming!
DA series as a whole seems to play fast and loose with whether all the companions are present for your adventures. In DAI, Iron Bull will talk about being there while killing a dragon whether you take him or not, however Blackwall gets mad if you collect the warden artifacts without him.
I like the possibility of it. And here's an extension. Maybe Anders was easier for Corypheus to get into BECAUSE of Justice. Maybe the purpose wasn't to start the rebellion, but just to see how far he could reach and what he could do. Maybe there wasn't a point to it beyond Corypheus testing his power. Anders already being traumatized as a child and in general somewhat unstable because of Justice/Vengeance probably just made it easier for Corypheus to get into his head.
This theory is out there but when justice comes out of Anders, he glows blue. In trespassers solas after becoming the dread wolf, his eyes glow blue and is dedicated to justice for the elven people. Could solas use his ancient power, like mythal to posses a willing body (Anders) through the fade and use him to start the mage rebelion, weakening the veil? Starting the events of Inquisition.
Great theory! I was actually kinda thinking for a while it was Mythal instead of Corypheus. She could have controlled the spirit. She did say in Inquisition she likes to give history a "shove" every now and then
Or, or... Solas was involved. He is a Dreamer, and may have been able to communicate with Anders/Justice in the Fade and egg him on in order to bring down the Circles. Dunno.
It's possible. But if Solas is to be believed in Inquisition, and depending on when Hawke meets Corypheus (Acts 1, 2, or 3) he woudn't have even awoken from his Uthenera at that point. From what Solas described, Uthenera left him unaware of what was happening in the waking world. But I imagine he could have learned a great deal wandering the Fade for over a millennium. So, directly or indirectly, it's plausible. Well done.
This is a neat theory! Totally subscribe to it. Tho, one thing: they do actually say in Inquisition a couple times that the war between mages and templars did start in Kirkwall with the explosion? 😅 It's mentioned in Varric's first Codex in DAI, and a couple other codexes. The fear that the Kirkwall explosion generated caused the Templars to start being more aggressive towards the Mages and to restrict them more, and that triggered the fighting. It was totally because of Kirkwall, and by extension, Anders. Which only makes the theory more plausible!
In most of the cutscenes through the games (except maybe for the DA2 Act I Deep Roads Expedition), just because a character is not in the active, doe snot mean they did nto make the trip to the scenario. Very often characters not int he active party appear in conversations with bosses or NPCs in a dungeon. So Anders would likely have been at Hawke''s camp in Legacy and likely have been out there along the road before that ampitheatre, or just hanging back fromt eh active party so as not to interfere with combat tactics.
It's a strong point of view, but (sorry for this "but") two elements is missing here: One is a most important - development cycle. Maybe it's boring, but during the development DAII , writers and developers was dissagree often. I know this because I myself a gamewriter - when writing this huge story, according many limitations in gameplay, graphics etc, things must be a bit messy. Ludonarrative dissonance was happened: developers or publisher (seems likely) wanted a very Big-Boom, astronishing, breathtaking wow-effect so to speak. And... Anders was doomed:) Two - Anders's personality was gentle and kind (see his actions in Kirkwall), he trembling of very thoughts of murdering innocent people. Writing a small kind of mod of Anders's life, I've been thinking a lot about final of DAII. This big boom, the destruction of Chantry not happened, it's completely ruined Anders's character, it's a ridiculous nonlogical decision. It's a gamedevelopment decision. What was really may happened (in theory of course)? Anders performed desperate extreme act of violence - assassination of Grand cleric Elthina. WWI was started with assassination. War began because of small last straw. Big booms was not needed by anyone - Anders wanted to push mages to action, Meredith wanted an excuse, justification to purge the Circle with Right of Annulment. Elthina stand in a middle blubbering about "god only knows" - weak political argument in many ways, maybe she is soft or simply old and delusional because of her age. Writers paint her as a victim, standing in a way of changes with weak traditional point of view. Maybe I've create a messy opinion in my broken English, I'm sorry:) I'm not entirely accustomed to your beautiful language.
Marigold Kovaleva I never thought about this possibility. It makes sense - the Grand Cleric was the only one keeping the tense peace between mages and templars of Kirkwall. A big boom wasn't necessary, just a single murder. But codex-wise it can be said that after Anders almost killed that girl on Act 2 most of his rebelious actions were prompted by Justice.
I always sort of assumed that the merging with Justice simply opened up some bad stuff. A lot of his behavior does shout "PTSD" to me. That thing with the girl in act II especially. Then the combined issue of being taught to fear himself (however he may reject that teaching) together with a very black-white way of understanding the world on the part of Justice that undermines any sort of natural healing process which relies heavily on acceptance... I think it led him to "demonize" parts of himself - I don't think there was "Vengeance" as he speaks of it. But that is the great thing about characters - to some extent they are vessels onto which we project our own views and experiences and there is no real truth. I do absolutely believe that this sort of pressure, combined with the exceedingly crazy situation in Kirkwall, would bring him to reason that a "big boom" is what is needed. His story always made perfect sense to me through this lens.
I 'd say Corypheus is neither that clever nor subtle. If it's really his doing, he'd make Anders spout "A new God is coming! Exalt the Elder One!" kind of thing (and/or make Anders start a Cory cult) . Cory's ego is much bigger than his intellectual capacity.
Gendo ruwo Corypheaus' plan to assassinate empress Celene didn't reek of him either. And without the Inquisitor, people would not have suspected it as his handiwork.
Corypheaus also took over the leadership of the templars through Envy. So I while I don't believed he manipulated Anders Corypheaus can be subtle and scheming.
It's a solid theory. Especially if you recall Corypheus going on about how his plan to invade the Fade had taken years to cultivate. Makes you wonder exactly how many years he's talking about. >_>
It does feel right! After all Corypheus used the Conclave as a way to approach the Divine for his ritual. The Conclave was the direct consequence of the Chantry blowing up!
This is a neat theory! Tho, they do say in the games a couple times that the war between mages and templars did start in Kirkwall with the explosion? The fear that generated caused the Templars to start being more aggressive towards the Mages, and that triggered the fighting. It was totally because of Kirkwall, and by extension, Anders.
It is impossible for Corypheus to manipulate Anders, especially when the game does not need the dlc, and if you do not have it installed, there are no dwarves attacking you.
i think if anders was ´´used´´ also the ghost of justice which possesd him ´´used´´ but since cole i think this could be possible so what happenes if romanced hawk decidesto kill his love before sacreficing herself or the wardens will she meet him in hte veil?
also, its possible that corypheus didn't initially sense out anders, but rather, vengeance. we know from the nightmare that he is all too eager to use powerful demons for his goals; and i would presume vengeance to be very powerful indeed. perhaps it was not vengeance guarding anders from full possession, but rather it was anders that was blocking an attempted binding of vengeance. this would also line up with the idea that the chantry attack may have been the influence of justice/vengeance, that anders either mistook as his own thoughts, or was too worn our psychologically to deny. if corypheus was utilizing vengeance in some way, then really, having the corrupted spirit conjole it's meat puppet along the same dance isnt all too far fetched.
Although I like this theory, I have my doubts about it. In Awakening the Warden can choose to hand Anders to templars. Which means that he might have nothing to do with the wardens and Justice. Correct me if I missed something though.
I'll will bet 100 bucks that the templars found out about this and used this against every mage in thedas including grey wardens thinking it's another reason kill all of us because we're too dangerous as it is and trust me they did and they will again
The argument that "I didn't take X-Y-Z with me when A-B-C happened" simply doesn't hold up. They are your companions, your "team" they would go to the locations with you, even as just backup and not directly involved..... you know, to make sure nobody stops you, moving all your gear, watching your back, taking care of side issues. Typical stuff that a "team" will do when people are on a mission. I mean, it isn't like this is the modern day military where you can simply leave your unit back at base for a few weeks while you do some kind of assignment. They would travel with you and be there to deal with the "side stuff" that simply gets overlooked in the big picture.
No hate to the OP, but not gonna lie, I can't stand this theory. Anders had a million reasons on his own to resort to blowing up the Chantry; he didn't need some ooky spooky darkspawn controlling him to do it. I feel like this is a cheap attempt at explaining to supporters of the Chantry and Templars how/why Anders did something so """evil""" as he did in The Last Straw, without understanding that what he did wasn't evil: it was desperate. He did what he did in order to bring the mages' plight into the light, and to give his brethren a fighting chance at freedom from an oppressive regime, not to cause chaos. The chaos was just collateral damage, and trying to argue it as the entire point of his actions majorly diminishes who Anders is, what Justice is, and what the mages have suffered. Plus, as mentioned in the video, his actions at Kirkwall didn't even begin the mage rebellion. Cole and Rhys did, in Asunder, and I don't see anyone arguing that Corypheus had any of his gross spider-leg fingers in that pie.
Ahhh mage oppression. BioWare's attempt at equating real life social injustice with the harsh reality that people who can shoot fire out of their hands and bring the wrath of the sky with a flick of their wrist should not be given complete and total freedom.
Hey, I agree with you, frankly if this theory IS TRUE. I'd say it'd degrade his character and steal the dramatic narrative behind his choices/behavior/motivation. I'm not too worried cause Bioware makes it a habit never to support nor deny theories. Yet my view still stands, I hope this'll never be the case. Because I very much like Anders's as a character. He's a hypocritical, self-centered, and at times downright despicable fanatic extremist. Yet he throughly desires to do right by what he believes is right. So him blowing up the Chantry of his own free will is not only in character, yet it's those character aspects I PERSONALLY find interesting about him.
It's always interesting to entertain alternative theories, but there are many pitfalls - especially when you start talking about mind-control - that ultimately result in cheapening the character(s) involved. If Anders did what he did because Corypheus controlled him (to whichever extent), the character and personality of Anders would be weakened. This is why I don't like anything that has to do with people being (magically) influenced by an outside force, and this is why I was really disappointed with how Meredith's story arc developed after Act 2 in DA2. She went from being a ruthless yet in some ways understandable character (who may or may not have been a sort of antagonist to Hawke and friends, depending on how you view the Circle and Templars), to someone who was just being mind-controlled by a magical force. I very much prefer actions and stories that evolve organically through personality and circumstance; when people are fully realized characters who have their own thoughts and agendas, and who must react to the world around them with those things in mind. In the case of Anders, he is already being affected and influenced by Justice/Vengeance, but it's at least not to the extent this theory would imply. He is still mostly his own person who has evolved more or less naturally throughout the two games, and has become what he is through his life experiences. Adding another element of magical influence or even mind-control to that, would take this away from him, and I wouldn't want to do that to poor Anders. :(
I get this theory but it doesn't fit for the simple fact it ruins alot of themes of DA2s story about people actions and how those effect the world around us. If Anders starting a war was just "Oh its cause an acient evil was possessing him." I think that would damage alot of what made Dragon age an interesting setting in the first place.
IF ANDERS was with the warden while meeting the Architect , Anders shut have known that Wardensblood can probably stop the Blight infection in Bethany/Carver´s Body as they were in the deep routs at kirkwall
DA2 already makes excuses for Awakening Anders. Anders was poisoned by Vengence, driving him to do things he never would have done otherwise. He doesn't need Corypheus for that to make sense.
I agree. No matter what Anders wants to hide behind, he made certain decisions even *before* justice controlled like 80% of his mind. Even in his clear moments he does nothing but rant about mage opression. He was simply a terrorist. No matter if he was „used“ or not. The mentality was there one way or the other.
Johann sure But I imagine myself as a mage Yes i might become dangerous but beeing opressed and locked in a circle...and after seeing what meredith did well I would have done the same
I know its been a ong time since you made this cast but it got me thinking of 2 codex entrys you get from the Legacy DLC that could support this theroy in a limited way. They are codex enrty Speculations on Kirkwall that says "The records say Corypheus has been trapped below the Vimmarks since the days of the Tevinter Imperium. Can it be a coincidence that the darkspawn besiege this area more fiercely than anywhere else on the surface of Thedas? Or that Kirkwall, the closest city, suffers from endless plagues of violence, lunacy, human sacrifice, and blood magic? If one studies Kirkwall's public records, it becomes hard to deny that some malevolent force has long shaped its history. Could a darkspawn, even a powerful mage, have such influence even as it slumbers? -From a weathered journal bearing the Grey Wardens' seal and the entry called Regalia of Weisshaupt that says"I find myself drawn inexplicably to the principal seal. My waking moments are consumed by thoughts of it. I make excuses so that I might visit it. Then there are the journals of the Warden mage who created the seal using the artifact known as the key: What is the key? Can the seal be broken without it? I have begun to suspect that these thoughts are not my own. Close scrutiny of my emotions and thoughts have led me to the frightening conclusion that this obsession was planted in me by the creature they call Corypheus. Corypheus wants me to learn about the seal and key so that he may pluck the knowledge from my mind. Corypheus wants to be free, and he will stop at nothing to achieve his goal. -From the journal of Erasmus, a Grey Warden mage who, shortly after penning this entry in 1012 TE, threw himself off the highest level of the prison tower
Iteresting theory but thats all it is... Anders was indeed used but not by Corypheus... Justice used him. Heres the only evidece anyone would need: Back in Awakening Anders acts alot like a lone wolf - trying to keep himsef out of templars' bad side, never sticking anywhere for too long etc. Justice on other hand often criticise Anders for allowing other mages to be kept as slaves and the more you have those 2 in the party - the more Justice push the idea of freeing all mages from oppression P.S. I know.... its old video
um actually, Anders was used. The title is correct. But it was by Justice/Vengeance Not Corypheus. Anders said when he dies, Justice will just go back to fade. He implies or outright says he's being used by Justice. The real point of the Anders story was to show you how possession works up close. You don't really get to understand the complexity of abominations in any other context. In DA1 you don't really get to see the dark side and the light side of abominations. Wynn didn't harbor anger and resentment like Anders did so the spirit didn't become tainted by her. I'm not going to watch your whole video catalogue to see if you've amended this or corrected it. If this has been addressed, my apologies.
Lets not forget that Varric openly admits that he is a liar.
This is a FASCINATING possibility. It actually makes sense of you think about it, even with the relatively small evidence. I mean, take Celene's attempted assassination in Dragon Age Inquisition. Had the Inquisitor not intervened, nobody would have even considered Corypheus' involvement until it was too late. It even could have had the same goals, to destabilize Thedas (through the Mage Rebellion) in order to more easily conquer it when the time was right. Same goes for the Wardens. Even if it wasn't the direct start to the Rebellion, it was at least a Catalyst. A massive symbol that would increase tensions between Templars and Mages. So is it really that much of a stretch that Corypheus began seeding his plans that early in the shadows? Especially given how well his plans would have been concealed without the Inquisitor's interference.
He's like evil Flemeth! Lol just keeps popping up.
@@kimmehamehaaa7241 Flemeth is evil Flemeth
Great video! my favorite head cannon/theory about "Ander was used " were from Ander's Writer Jennifer Hepler. In a podcast she said that spirit/demon are way devious than what most players believe and in Hepler's rejected idea for a DAII DLC (I believe it was the canceled Exodus DLC), where during the dlc Hawke met Justice but it is still in Kristoff's body and had no idea what you were talking about when you brought up him merging with Anders. That is when player realize Anders was tricked and possessed by a demon the whole game (fresh out of tokens podcast, 8/31/2016, 00:40:20).
i hadnt heard of this before, how sad :((
Woooow
fucking hell that would have left me shook
Holy damn, someone needs to write that fanfic immediately.
That would have been a major Fucking plot twist
It could be that all Corypheus had to do was corrupt justice into vengeance in order for vengeance to control Anders - which he admits if youre rivals, not friends.
I had never considered this. I'm very intrigued, though I think my main problem with the theory is just that I like the character of Anders so much and his final action at the chantry was set up so well. It just seemed like it made sense to him as a person. The involvement of Coryphy-fish maybe cheapens it a little? I don't know. Great video! A lot to think on.
I definitely think it can be both. Yes, Anders is a rebel and a revolutionary, but yes also those traits could have been purposefully manipulated and Anders himself chosen because of those traits.
This theory is fascinating, and I think it has a high possibility of being true. It's been stated that the set time for the DLCs in Dragon Age 2, both Mark of The Assassin and Legacy, are set before the end game. Therefore, the Chantry wouldn't've been exploded at that time.
There's also another thing. There's a codex entry called "Speculations on Kirkwall" you can find in Legacy that says the following:
Codex text
The records say Corypheus has been trapped below the Vimmarks since the days of the Tevinter Imperium. Can it be a coincidence that the darkspawn besiege this area more fiercely than anywhere else on the surface of Thedas? Or that Kirkwall, the closest city, suffers from endless plagues of violence, lunacy, human sacrifice, and blood magic?
If one studies Kirkwall's public records, it becomes hard to deny that some malevolent force has long shaped its history. Could a darkspawn, even a powerful mage, have such influence even as it slumbers?
-From a weathered journal bearing the Grey Wardens' seal
From this, I believe that Corypheus has influenced Kirkwall for a long time, and that's why it's been filled with chaos for many years. It would make it possible for Anders to not be brought along but still influenced by Corypheus.
In Inquisition, you learn from Bianca during the "Well, Shit" quest that red lyrium is lyrium that's been tainted with the Blight. Where do we first find red lyrium? In Kirkwall, which would be under Corypheus's influence. As he moves, as does his effect on lyrium, thus making the lyrium tainted with the Blight.
There is also a codex entry that you can find during the Legacy DLC that is a journal of a dead explorer or Grey Warden. In it, the explorer states that they believe the reason Kirkwall is always full of strife or on the verge of another crisis is that Corypheus is trapped close to the city and that his influence is making the city a volatile place. So it does make sense that Anders could have been manipulated by both Justice and Corypheus.
Corypheus was confuse whem he woke he didn't have a goal besides escape prison it took some time for him to figure things out and start planning things.You can hear him talking about it in the temple of dummat if you save the templars.
You forgot Laraius' words when the Hawk kills Corypheus:
"The prision stands no more, my gratitude you have for my freedom."
I have serious doubts if Corypheus was really confused at some point or if it was all staging.
When I clicked this, I thought you mean Anders was used by justice! XD
WHY NOT BOTH
@@BattyButtercup I wouldn't say Justice is using Anders exactly, it's more so that Justice and Anders mutually corrupt each other.
Because of it is Varric's story, I always keep him in my party setup, to make him a viable narrator as an eye witness, but that doesn't mean he didn't lie to Cassandra, it just to make his story is more believable.
Thats a way to do it. Makes sense, I always took him along because he wasn't a squishy rogue like Isabela.
@@littleneko4700 Yes, Isabella is squishy... :))
I have a fan theory about Harding. Her fear of heights is related to her dwafiness
I like this theory purely because I love Anders and I’d love him to be redeemed, I feel like he may come back in the future (even if you killed him, Leliana came back, why not Anders too) and he could help our future protagonist??? I dunno I’m just an Anders lover so I’m bias I guess.
I would think if a hooded figure (with Ander's voice) helped the protagonist in DA4 in a quest involving helping mages or just humanitarian. That way it would be ambiguous, for those who slew Anders there is deniability it was him but for those who didn't.... then who else could it be ;)
@@mysticonthehill or it could be a spirit formed of Anders's actions following his legacy
I've disliked Anders ever since Awakening, but I recently played DA2 for the second time and I have to say, while I still dislike him, his plan worked. I don't think he deserves or needs any kind of redemption, because that would male his actions void. He should stay the martyr he chose to become
Did you even consider the the red lyrium in Kirkwall? Someone in Inquisition (Varric or Cullen?) said that they found lots of red lyrium in Kirkwall (after the story of DA2 ended).
I find this especially interesting because if you had a rivalmance with Anders, you can convince him there are other means than what he's planning, but Justice takes over mid-conversation and Anders blows up the chantry anyway, stating Justice made him do it (Whilst in a friendmance he says him and Justice merged and it was his plan) Which makes this theory even more interesting.
I think they missed a trick with Corypheus and the Venatori. It would have been better had Corypheus been played more openly with anger and despair - and those being reasons why the Venatori would follow him. As in, they know he's a darkspawn, and they know he's one of the 7 magisters but they follow him because they share his anger at what has happened to Tevinter, anger that if the Maker exists effectively he abused absolute power and created centuries of death, destruction, suffering and instability and despair that maybe the Maker doesn't exist at all and that the world, the Fade are hostile, alone, and suffering and evil occur without meaning, purpose or a sense of good to check any of it.
Of course this is also fictional, I forgot who said it, but she pointed out that villains are more interesting people in literature but in real life actually good people are far more interesting whereas actual villains are depressingly one or two dimensional.
Kind of late for this one, but I would have to disagree with the theory. 1. Justice would have noticed the influence and tried to interrupt it. 2. Blowing up the Kirkwall Chantry wouldn't actually forward Corypheus' goals. There's no way he could have known what the affects would have been. 3. If Corypheus had been influencing Anders, he would have made him kill Hawke. He certainly would not have made Anders sit there and let Hawke murder-knife him. 4. Anders made excuses for his actions. That means he rationalized it. He had his own motives and reasons, and he was ready to accept his punishment. 5. Corypheus' area of effect was not large enough to affect Anders at all times. In Inquisition, Corypheus had the help of the Nightmare to amplify his influence. 6. Even with the amplified influence in Inquisition, the Wardens were not controlled by Corypheus. They were only fooled. They thought they were hearing the Calling. The only ones Corypheus could control were the mages who were bound to the Nightmare. 7. At no time during Inquisition did Corypheus show the ability to make any Grey Warden kill the Inquisitor, blow something up, or otherwise do his bidding. If he had been able to make Anders set bombs and detonate them, then he certainly could have made another Grey Warden assassinate the Inquisitor.
Also kinda late for this but I just have to say that I'm thankful that someone pointed these out. By the way, I find the 4th one the most interesting and convincing rebuttal for this theory. Anders blowed up the Chantry BECAUSE he was fully aware of what that meant: a symbol of power over the mages AND the excuse Meredith always wanted in order invoke the Right of Anullment. Both motives are made clear on his speech at The Last Straw during the Chantry explosion scene:
"The time has come to act. There can be no half-measures. There can be no turning back. There can be no peace."
"I removed the chance of compromise, because there is no compromise."
And I personally think that Anders' character is about "insurgency against power as the only effective way out" (more like a "desperate radical measure" because Anders tried a less radical with his Manifesto and writings). He's acts were driven by the urge for freedom for the mages. I refuse to see him as just a puppet, I see THAT as HIS motivation, THAT is what HIS character development leads to. Instead, the theory seems to assume that everything is being manipulated, thus, erasing the very sense of "living history", almost implying that if it wasn't for the fact that the characters are part of some complex major scheme, their actions wouldn't have dramatical effects on the world's History. These types of theory looks at historical events (and other events before those) and take into account the already known aftermaths, but forgeting that even though characters can try to predict what their actions will cause (the "IDEAL and expected consequences") they still have NO control (most of the times) over the "REAL and unexpected consequences". And that's how History happens.
I'm of the opinion that it doesn't matter who you take In your party, all companions are assumed to have "been there" at major events. This is particularly suggested a few times in DAI when companions like Bull talk about getting such a rush after killing your first Dragon even if he wasnt in the active party. Same thing with the Winter Palace. I had companions commenting on being there who I never took. Sera, Bull, Solas, Blackwall etc even though I took Cass, Dorian and Varric.
Anders also met the Architect another dark Magister in Awakening but wasn't affected At All by him
To be fair, Hawke only says that with a romanced Anders, they could just be assuming that you took him everywhere. As for Varric, again it might just be assumed that you took him along, he found the Carta and played a big role in the legacy dlc, he is also a fan favorite. Beside Corhpy isn't the modest type if he did all of that I'm sure we would have had to listen to a monologue about it.
Kelsey Jackson but the problem with influencing all of these people and all he did to Rise and to be able to come back through the taint even though Hawke thought he killed Corphy if you tell all everything then you wouldn’t have an edge so you monologue to all this then you would lose your edge not to mention being an evil genius it’s hard to keep up with al you’ve done especially when people don’t ask specific questions so hey Corphy did you control anders ?lol
David Phariss he wanted to be a god not an evil genius. It's been a while since I played inquisition, but I don't remember Corphy using tactics like that. In fact he very rarely relied on any type of deception. He woke up, raised and army, and said he was going to the black city to be a god. In fact I think his arrogance and pride kept him from doing something as cunning and omitting a big event that that. Solas on the other hand...
@@cells-n-stuff Wouldn't you say his destabilization of Orlais involved deception as well as him involve Envy to lead the Templars astray?
@@mysticonthehill so its been even longer since I've played the game, but I think that the deception came from the 'generals'. But sure, it could be. Basic tactic would be to eliminate the biggest threat first, the Templars were trained soldiers who fought magic specifically, and Orlais was the strongest political power. Get people who know how to take them down. However, I'm pretty sure we always knew what was going on fairly quickly. We knew he wanted to be a God within the first hour of the game the rest was just figuring out how he was going to do that.
A corrupted spirit justice turned vengeance would also amplify corypheus' influence possibly
I love this theory. It makes a lot of things make sense and it helps make Anders more fully formed as a character as well.
It's worth noting that Corypheus opened the Breach at the Conclave, a meeting to settle the Mage-Templar War... which Anders helped start. We already know Corypheus has a vested interest in the Mage-Templar War continuing, so having any agents he could stir things up makes sense.
Also, I just...always hated the way Anders blew up the Chantry. You could be his love interest, super gung-ho about both killing people and mage liberation, and he *still* hides what he's doing from you when he asks for your help making the bomb. He's shady and extremist in ways that don't make sense, for either Justice or Anders from Awakening, and if they have to retcon this in just to make his character consistent and reasonable then I'll accept it.
An interesting thing that not many Andersmancers seem to have seen is the rivalmance, where Hawke is pro-templar, etc. There is one romance scene when Anders almost tells Hawke what he has done, since he starts to regret it - but Justice takes over and stops him from saying it. So I feel like 'The last straw' was all Justice, even if Anders didn't glow.
This is the best one so far because it actually ties DA2 and Legacy quite well. IMO, had Bioware been allowed to complete development of the game, then Corypheus may have ended up becoming the main antagonist of DA2, instead of Meredith and Orsino both going batshit insane as last minute final boss add-ons. And if it had been released in 2012 instead of 2011, Corypheus would not have to have showed up in DAI at all in order to continue his story. We might well have ended up with a third Magister Sidereal had EA not messed up Bioware game development cycle.
You should do a character video on Anders!
this theory gave me the impression that corypheus's influence on anders was purely accidental. like, the idea to destroy the chantry was a subconscious effect of corypheus's formulating his plan for the events of inquisition and to anders, and any others who had the taint at the time, it may have felt less like noticeable control and more like the wisps of an idea or faint nightmares. i don't think corypheus controlled him, but i do think the effect of corypheus influenced him in honestly subconscious ways that still leave anders very much responsible for the events
actually you should add maradith and varics brother to this. I mean red lyriem seems to allow long range control. and he was waking up at the time.
i just restarted origins and am playing as a mage; i was reading the codex entry 'Beyond The Veil: Spirits and Demons', and i came across this passage:
"Desire demons are more clever, and far more powerful, using all forms of bribery to induce mortals into their realms. Wealth, love, vengeance, whatever lies closest to your heart." O_O
I have been looking for so long for a good Dragon Age lore discussion channel, thank god for this video and this amazing channel! I look forward to all future content
I don't think the 'Varric storytelling is potentially fallible' part of the theory is a good reason for explaining how Anders might have been at where Corypheus was in the Legacy DLC. It's just how things happen in games. Hawke will say certain people were there, even if they weren't, just to serve the game and it's plot. Cassandra will comment on how romantic Varric made the fight between Hawke and the Arishok is, even though we just played it in Varric's telling of the story, and it was mainly you just running around 90% of the time and hitting the Arishok one or two times, before running off again. THE STUFF OF LEGEND(!) Hell, it happens in other Bioware games, too. In ME3, when talking to Wrex about the Rachni Queen, he'll comment on how he was there, even if he wasn't in your party. It doesn't mean anything.
This theory would work better if it isn't constrained by the 4 person party mechanic. Suppose the whole crew comes along, but just some aren't in the lime-light.
that's the problem with games where you can only take a few of your actual party members with you on your team, it is easy to forget that the rest of your people are VERY UNLIKELY to just be standing around twiddling their thumbs back at HQ while a war is waging, whether rampaging qunari, reapers, Klingons, storm troopers, or zombies... they are just likely engaging the enemies in other less critical areas. Hawke, The Warden, the Inquisitor (in this instance) or maybe people like COMMANDER SHEPARD in others ;) are generally on critical missions that MUST succeed, but it doesn't mean your team mates outside your main party are inactive... Wrex probably was there on Noveria for instance, whether he was in Shepard's party or not. But in regards to the Varric's story being partly fabricated story-telling... that would be in character and par for the course for Varric... he DID after all hate and mistrust Cassandra and everything she stood for in DA2 and thru the first half of DA:I ... so I think it is a given that he probably lied to her at least in part thru the story he tells her. He ADMITS as much during inquisition
As far as canon is concerned all companions were present in all events-
I just assume for the sake of story, everyone was in the party canonically, but gameplay wise only four people are there.
ye olde probleme of "gameplay versus lore"! it is INCREDIBLY frustrating! i wish games would add-on "...and everyone else was there too" so that THE PLAYER (distinct from the controlled character) remembers that & solidifies where people are at certain events rather than simply leaving it unsaid that gameplay restrictions doth not equal actual story/lore.
Great video! This is the kind of content I enjoy most. Peoples theories, speculation on lore and history and things that could be going on in the background. I could just sit back and mull over this kind of stuff all day. Great job, keep em coming!
DA series as a whole seems to play fast and loose with whether all the companions are present for your adventures. In DAI, Iron Bull will talk about being there while killing a dragon whether you take him or not, however Blackwall gets mad if you collect the warden artifacts without him.
Could you do some videos about each book on dragon age?:0 that would be pretty interesting!
I like the possibility of it. And here's an extension. Maybe Anders was easier for Corypheus to get into BECAUSE of Justice. Maybe the purpose wasn't to start the rebellion, but just to see how far he could reach and what he could do. Maybe there wasn't a point to it beyond Corypheus testing his power. Anders already being traumatized as a child and in general somewhat unstable because of Justice/Vengeance probably just made it easier for Corypheus to get into his head.
This theory is out there but when justice comes out of Anders, he glows blue. In trespassers solas after becoming the dread wolf, his eyes glow blue and is dedicated to justice for the elven people. Could solas use his ancient power, like mythal to posses a willing body (Anders) through the fade and use him to start the mage rebelion, weakening the veil? Starting the events of Inquisition.
I don't think so, Solus has more direct resource, Dalish Elf, he totally can control the elves with Vassalin (especially lyrium Vassalin)
Anders looks like the inquisitor under the influence of the well of souls...
Great theory! I was actually kinda thinking for a while it was Mythal instead of Corypheus. She could have controlled the spirit. She did say in Inquisition she likes to give history a "shove" every now and then
and boy did she meet with an ... ignoble end (ultimately)
Or, or... Solas was involved. He is a Dreamer, and may have been able to communicate with Anders/Justice in the Fade and egg him on in order to bring down the Circles. Dunno.
It's possible. But if Solas is to be believed in Inquisition, and depending on when Hawke meets Corypheus (Acts 1, 2, or 3) he woudn't have even awoken from his Uthenera at that point. From what Solas described, Uthenera left him unaware of what was happening in the waking world. But I imagine he could have learned a great deal wandering the Fade for over a millennium.
So, directly or indirectly, it's plausible. Well done.
Tbh I think it was all just vengance/justice
This is a neat theory! Totally subscribe to it. Tho, one thing: they do actually say in Inquisition a couple times that the war between mages and templars did start in Kirkwall with the explosion? 😅 It's mentioned in Varric's first Codex in DAI, and a couple other codexes. The fear that the Kirkwall explosion generated caused the Templars to start being more aggressive towards the Mages and to restrict them more, and that triggered the fighting. It was totally because of Kirkwall, and by extension, Anders. Which only makes the theory more plausible!
In most of the cutscenes through the games (except maybe for the DA2 Act I Deep Roads Expedition), just because a character is not in the active, doe snot mean they did nto make the trip to the scenario. Very often characters not int he active party appear in conversations with bosses or NPCs in a dungeon. So Anders would likely have been at Hawke''s camp in Legacy and likely have been out there along the road before that ampitheatre, or just hanging back fromt eh active party so as not to interfere with combat tactics.
It's a strong point of view, but (sorry for this "but") two elements is missing here:
One is a most important - development cycle. Maybe it's boring, but during the development DAII , writers and developers was dissagree often. I know this because I myself a gamewriter - when writing this huge story, according many limitations in gameplay, graphics etc, things must be a bit messy. Ludonarrative dissonance was happened: developers or publisher (seems likely) wanted a very Big-Boom, astronishing, breathtaking wow-effect so to speak. And... Anders was doomed:)
Two - Anders's personality was gentle and kind (see his actions in Kirkwall), he trembling of very thoughts of murdering innocent people. Writing a small kind of mod of Anders's life, I've been thinking a lot about final of DAII. This big boom, the destruction of Chantry not happened, it's completely ruined Anders's character, it's a ridiculous nonlogical decision. It's a gamedevelopment decision.
What was really may happened (in theory of course)? Anders performed desperate extreme act of violence - assassination of Grand cleric Elthina. WWI was started with assassination. War began because of small last straw. Big booms was not needed by anyone - Anders wanted to push mages to action, Meredith wanted an excuse, justification to purge the Circle with Right of Annulment. Elthina stand in a middle blubbering about "god only knows" - weak political argument in many ways, maybe she is soft or simply old and delusional because of her age. Writers paint her as a victim, standing in a way of changes with weak traditional point of view.
Maybe I've create a messy opinion in my broken English, I'm sorry:) I'm not entirely accustomed to your beautiful language.
Marigold Kovaleva I never thought about this possibility. It makes sense - the Grand Cleric was the only one keeping the tense peace between mages and templars of Kirkwall. A big boom wasn't necessary, just a single murder.
But codex-wise it can be said that after Anders almost killed that girl on Act 2 most of his rebelious actions were prompted by Justice.
I always sort of assumed that the merging with Justice simply opened up some bad stuff. A lot of his behavior does shout "PTSD" to me. That thing with the girl in act II especially. Then the combined issue of being taught to fear himself (however he may reject that teaching) together with a very black-white way of understanding the world on the part of Justice that undermines any sort of natural healing process which relies heavily on acceptance... I think it led him to "demonize" parts of himself - I don't think there was "Vengeance" as he speaks of it. But that is the great thing about characters - to some extent they are vessels onto which we project our own views and experiences and there is no real truth. I do absolutely believe that this sort of pressure, combined with the exceedingly crazy situation in Kirkwall, would bring him to reason that a "big boom" is what is needed. His story always made perfect sense to me through this lens.
I 'd say Corypheus is neither that clever nor subtle. If it's really his doing, he'd make Anders spout "A new God is coming! Exalt the Elder One!" kind of thing (and/or make Anders start a Cory cult) . Cory's ego is much bigger than his intellectual capacity.
Gendo ruwo Corypheaus' plan to assassinate empress Celene didn't reek of him either. And without the Inquisitor, people would not have suspected it as his handiwork.
Corypheaus also took over the leadership of the templars through Envy. So I while I don't believed he manipulated Anders Corypheaus can be subtle and scheming.
It's a solid theory. Especially if you recall Corypheus going on about how his plan to invade the Fade had taken years to cultivate. Makes you wonder exactly how many years he's talking about. >_>
This theory throws roleplaying put the the window.
I was actually thinking about this theory right before I watched this video
It does feel right! After all Corypheus used the Conclave as a way to approach the Divine for his ritual. The Conclave was the direct consequence of the Chantry blowing up!
My squad for legacy was, Varric, Carver and Anders
This is a neat theory! Tho, they do say in the games a couple times that the war between mages and templars did start in Kirkwall with the explosion? The fear that generated caused the Templars to start being more aggressive towards the Mages, and that triggered the fighting. It was totally because of Kirkwall, and by extension, Anders.
This was so well done! Thank you for sharing! :)
It is impossible for Corypheus to manipulate Anders, especially when the game does not need the dlc, and if you do not have it installed, there are no dwarves attacking you.
Official timeline place Legacy in act 1... even if i like to do it just before the end game
Act 1 really?
i think if anders was ´´used´´ also the ghost of justice which possesd him ´´used´´
but since cole i think this could be possible
so what happenes if romanced hawk decidesto kill his love before sacreficing herself or the wardens
will she meet him in hte veil?
also, its possible that corypheus didn't initially sense out anders, but rather, vengeance. we know from the nightmare that he is all too eager to use powerful demons for his goals; and i would presume vengeance to be very powerful indeed. perhaps it was not vengeance guarding anders from full possession, but rather it was anders that was blocking an attempted binding of vengeance.
this would also line up with the idea that the chantry attack may have been the influence of justice/vengeance, that anders either mistook as his own thoughts, or was too worn our psychologically to deny.
if corypheus was utilizing vengeance in some way, then really, having the corrupted spirit conjole it's meat puppet along the same dance isnt all too far fetched.
This is one theory I really hope is true.
Orlais Lore?
Although I like this theory, I have my doubts about it. In Awakening the Warden can choose to hand Anders to templars. Which means that he might have nothing to do with the wardens and Justice. Correct me if I missed something though.
The line in dai finally makes sense.
Do the writers think this much? I'm just asking
ITS 2018 AND HOLY SHIT
I'll will bet 100 bucks that the templars found out about this and used this against every mage in thedas including grey wardens thinking it's another reason kill all of us because we're too dangerous as it is and trust me they did and they will again
The argument that "I didn't take X-Y-Z with me when A-B-C happened" simply doesn't hold up. They are your companions, your "team" they would go to the locations with you, even as just backup and not directly involved..... you know, to make sure nobody stops you, moving all your gear, watching your back, taking care of side issues. Typical stuff that a "team" will do when people are on a mission. I mean, it isn't like this is the modern day military where you can simply leave your unit back at base for a few weeks while you do some kind of assignment. They would travel with you and be there to deal with the "side stuff" that simply gets overlooked in the big picture.
Honestly as someone who's only played DAI and watched a playthrough of DA2 I really want Anders to be a bad guy in DA4.
No hate to the OP, but not gonna lie, I can't stand this theory. Anders had a million reasons on his own to resort to blowing up the Chantry; he didn't need some ooky spooky darkspawn controlling him to do it. I feel like this is a cheap attempt at explaining to supporters of the Chantry and Templars how/why Anders did something so """evil""" as he did in The Last Straw, without understanding that what he did wasn't evil: it was desperate. He did what he did in order to bring the mages' plight into the light, and to give his brethren a fighting chance at freedom from an oppressive regime, not to cause chaos. The chaos was just collateral damage, and trying to argue it as the entire point of his actions majorly diminishes who Anders is, what Justice is, and what the mages have suffered. Plus, as mentioned in the video, his actions at Kirkwall didn't even begin the mage rebellion. Cole and Rhys did, in Asunder, and I don't see anyone arguing that Corypheus had any of his gross spider-leg fingers in that pie.
Ahhh mage oppression. BioWare's attempt at equating real life social injustice with the harsh reality that people who can shoot fire out of their hands and bring the wrath of the sky with a flick of their wrist should not be given complete and total freedom.
I have to agree.
Caley McBride I kill Anders
Hey, I agree with you, frankly if this theory IS TRUE. I'd say it'd degrade his character and steal the dramatic narrative behind his choices/behavior/motivation. I'm not too worried cause Bioware makes it a habit never to support nor deny theories. Yet my view still stands, I hope this'll never be the case. Because I very much like Anders's as a character. He's a hypocritical, self-centered, and at times downright despicable fanatic extremist. Yet he throughly desires to do right by what he believes is right. So him blowing up the Chantry of his own free will is not only in character, yet it's those character aspects I PERSONALLY find interesting about him.
It's always interesting to entertain alternative theories, but there are many pitfalls - especially when you start talking about mind-control - that ultimately result in cheapening the character(s) involved. If Anders did what he did because Corypheus controlled him (to whichever extent), the character and personality of Anders would be weakened. This is why I don't like anything that has to do with people being (magically) influenced by an outside force, and this is why I was really disappointed with how Meredith's story arc developed after Act 2 in DA2. She went from being a ruthless yet in some ways understandable character (who may or may not have been a sort of antagonist to Hawke and friends, depending on how you view the Circle and Templars), to someone who was just being mind-controlled by a magical force. I very much prefer actions and stories that evolve organically through personality and circumstance; when people are fully realized characters who have their own thoughts and agendas, and who must react to the world around them with those things in mind.
In the case of Anders, he is already being affected and influenced by Justice/Vengeance, but it's at least not to the extent this theory would imply. He is still mostly his own person who has evolved more or less naturally throughout the two games, and has become what he is through his life experiences. Adding another element of magical influence or even mind-control to that, would take this away from him, and I wouldn't want to do that to poor Anders. :(
awww yisss tin foil
Interesting theory. But i feel that if it were true it would cheapen ander's arc.
you're a bit too close to the mic!
I get this theory but it doesn't fit for the simple fact it ruins alot of themes of DA2s story about people actions and how those effect the world around us. If Anders starting a war was just "Oh its cause an acient evil was possessing him." I think that would damage alot of what made Dragon age an interesting setting in the first place.
@Ghil Dirthalen
you havent done a video about Bethany & Carver ^^
not that you run out of themes
IF ANDERS was with the warden while meeting the Architect , Anders shut have known that Wardensblood can probably stop the Blight infection in Bethany/Carver´s Body as they were in the deep routs at kirkwall
It's an interesting theory but I don't like it for one reason. It makes excuses for Anders.
DA2 already makes excuses for Awakening Anders. Anders was poisoned by Vengence, driving him to do things he never would have done otherwise. He doesn't need Corypheus for that to make sense.
I agree. No matter what Anders wants to hide behind, he made certain decisions even *before* justice controlled like 80% of his mind. Even in his clear moments he does nothing but rant about mage opression.
He was simply a terrorist. No matter if he was „used“ or not. The mentality was there one way or the other.
Tf anders was right
BigBadWolf
That’s debatable. I don’t think he was right.
Johann sure
But I imagine myself as a mage
Yes i might become dangerous but beeing opressed and locked in a circle...and after seeing what meredith did well I would have done the same
I know its been a ong time since you made this cast but it got me thinking of 2 codex entrys you get from the Legacy DLC that could support this theroy in a limited way. They are codex enrty Speculations on Kirkwall that says "The records say Corypheus has been trapped below the Vimmarks since the days of the Tevinter Imperium. Can it be a coincidence that the darkspawn besiege this area more fiercely than anywhere else on the surface of Thedas? Or that Kirkwall, the closest city, suffers from endless plagues of violence, lunacy, human sacrifice, and blood magic?
If one studies Kirkwall's public records, it becomes hard to deny that some malevolent force has long shaped its history. Could a darkspawn, even a powerful mage, have such influence even as it slumbers?
-From a weathered journal bearing the Grey Wardens' seal
and the entry called Regalia of Weisshaupt that says"I find myself drawn inexplicably to the principal seal. My waking moments are consumed by thoughts of it. I make excuses so that I might visit it. Then there are the journals of the Warden mage who created the seal using the artifact known as the key: What is the key? Can the seal be broken without it?
I have begun to suspect that these thoughts are not my own. Close scrutiny of my emotions and thoughts have led me to the frightening conclusion that this obsession was planted in me by the creature they call Corypheus. Corypheus wants me to learn about the seal and key so that he may pluck the knowledge from my mind. Corypheus wants to be free, and he will stop at nothing to achieve his goal.
-From the journal of Erasmus, a Grey Warden mage who, shortly after penning this entry in 1012 TE, threw himself off the highest level of the prison tower
Cool theory, I guess
Iteresting theory but thats all it is...
Anders was indeed used but not by Corypheus... Justice used him.
Heres the only evidece anyone would need: Back in Awakening Anders acts alot like a lone wolf - trying to keep himsef out of templars' bad side, never sticking anywhere for too long etc. Justice on other hand often criticise Anders for allowing other mages to be kept as slaves and the more you have those 2 in the party - the more Justice push the idea of freeing all mages from oppression
P.S. I know.... its old video
um actually, Anders was used. The title is correct. But it was by Justice/Vengeance Not Corypheus.
Anders said when he dies, Justice will just go back to fade. He implies or outright says he's being used by Justice.
The real point of the Anders story was to show you how possession works up close. You don't really get to understand the complexity of abominations in any other context. In DA1 you don't really get to see the dark side and the light side of abominations. Wynn didn't harbor anger and resentment like Anders did so the spirit didn't become tainted by her.
I'm not going to watch your whole video catalogue to see if you've amended this or corrected it. If this has been addressed, my apologies.
An interesting theory but nevertheless to me Anders remains a terrorist who needs to answer for what he’s done
interesting, i hope it will be canon
I always knew he was a tool.
wow possible but please no
*A like Vendetta*
Coryphiny lololol
Thats so dumb.