I got called out by a Stanford learning scientist
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- Опубліковано 28 лип 2024
- Discussing learning science beliefs with Benjamin Keep.
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=== Timestamps ===
0:00 i got called out by this dude
1:52 What are retrieval and encoding?
3:10 The problem with sharing knowledge on UA-cam
5:14 The needed bridge between research and practice.
15:05 Problems within the research community
22:11 Controversial memory explanation in original video
25:00 My biggest regret with Active recall and Spaced repetition
32:42 The problem with flashcards
37:12 What is the commonality between effective study techniques?
42:23 Quality of encoding
44:10 You want your memory to change!
48:00 Learning software companies do not care about you!
55:50 The difficulty in testing cognitive processes
1:03:07 Importance of the Quality of knowledge structures
1:08:00 Learning is complicated!
=== About Dr Justin Sung ===
Dr. Justin Sung is a world-renowned expert in self-regulated learning, certified teacher, research author, and former medical doctor. He has guest lectured on learning skills at Monash University for Master’s and PhD students in Education and Medicine. Over the past decade, he has empowered tens of thousands of learners worldwide to dramatically improve their academic performance, learning efficiency, and motivation.
Instagram: / drjustinsung
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Every week, I distil what really works for improving results, memory, depth of understanding, and knowledge application from over a decade of coaching into bite-sized emails.
You can tell Sung walked into this one with excitement, as scholarly debate is one of most valuable forms of learning.
To be honest debate isn't really a good way of finding out who is right or wrong.
@@thefarmer6541it is if your healthy, and they mostly weren’t really debating much just having a conversation about learning research.
@@thefarmer6541 A debate might not be a great way to find out who is right or wrong but it's absolutely a great way to gain insight into perspectives you might not have had prior to, which in turn can lead you to learn about those after the fact.
@@thefarmer6541 I agree, debate isn't the most reliable tool to help you to learn. But discussion is, and I think that's what they meant. Discussion is essentially a semi-structured mutual peer-review, but debates tend to be performative
Dr Benjamin Keep's videos are clear cut and well structured, hope people see his content
I really like his videos. I think they're better suited to adults and professionals, where Justin's videos, while great, are geared to students and clearing up stupid things students think or prescribing techniques to them. Keep's videos are a bit more flexible and improved my mental model about learning in a way I could develop techniques tailored to my material.
they're the best in this genre i'd say. or maybe his accolades is what makes him more convincing to me lol. Appreciate Justin Sung for putting his name out there with this video
Holy, this is so interesting. I would love more discussions like these in future. It's like you said, "this kind of discussion is very hard to access." Almost no one else talks about it.
OMG yes please
thats why you should buy his course to support him bro. people keep demanding high quatily content without paying real money 😂
His course is so worth it tbh , if you are interested in more in-depth stuff then you should check it out !
@@x15money I would honestly, but tried convincing my parents and they think it's all a scam.
I'll definitely try in future when I have earned the money to afford it though.
Totally agree, it would be good to see something like it in the future!
You two should record more of these discussions, this alone was very intriguing and possibly having you two discuss learning science and its many complexities would be something I would love to watch as a fan of both of your channels!
Look, they can do this all day with their academic discussions. But what kind of practical advices can you derive from this talk. Or is it just about having some intellectual orgasm in the name of infotainment?
Same here!! I’d love a monthly podcast of these two looking at learning research!
I was excited to see drama in the Learning Science UA-cam niche but that was quickly shut down when they began explaining their ideas in a civilized manner.
So disappointing 😢
haha
They're academics, not influencers
Yea, no diss tracks 😂😂
@@jeongsungmin2023 only research papers smh
😂
This is what honest and integrity filled academic synthesis looks like. It would have been easy to ignore the response video, but having this conversation really shows that these are 2 good dudes who wanna help people out
although we can say that they probably need to work on the titles of their videos (although they could lose some of that clickbait element)
Honestly, Benjamin has been a life saver. He has this entertaining and practical way of sharing his knowledge. He teaches us about a concept by doing it himself and leading with example. It seems simple but creates a huge difference.
I love the clarity and simplicity of Dr Keep's messages
Glad Benjamin will get more exposure, his videos are great
I love academic science debates and how you both respectfully acknowledge how your convictions on best techniques will remain to differ and addressed potential challenges with regard to replication crisis and the human bias factor in scientific publications.
My autistic brain would gobble up any further videos like this you decide to create, the longer the better 😍
Agreeee
Big Kudos to you putting yourself in that position to be critiqued and having to deal with things you yourself thought you could have explained better. Almost no one does this, so kudos to you on doing that
I appreciate the academic candidness, honesty, and ownership! Most folks on YT will just cower away from any critiques of their work, but Justin embraces it. He's committed to doing the hard work to teach the real information, and willing to admit where he's made mistakes and improve his content. Thank you!
Let's just pretend that you are not just boosting his channel 😅
Both of you are excellent teachers, I'm glad to witness this "colab".
Finally got around to watching this video, great stuff! I'll take a shot at answering what's the best learning technique based on the content from both your channels: study the material with an emphasis on good encoding (apply/evaluate/analyze), but without taking notes, just on your head; couple hours later do a free recall with pen and paper; actually get a good night's sleep; do another free recall the next day. Also, don't binge/cram one subject. Well, maybe not the *best* technique, but what to me seems the simplest and most important. Thanks for the videos, both of you!
How does one analyse, evaluate and apply?
I basically never comment even though I watch most of your videos. This is to say that this whole discussion was incredibly interesting and that I think this content is extremely important. Even if this video only reaches 10-20% of what a normal video of yours might receive in views, I'm grateful for you having taken the time to make it. Looking forward to more discussion videos and deep dives in the future!
Amazing video. Truly amazing. It gives me goosebumps to hear a debate like this and also the take you guys had on the peer review processes and the citations and research done on learning.
I've gather my knowledge on learning mostly from UA-cam (that's not ideal xd) but I consider myself capable of analyzing the videos on education and see if they have valuable information. And it amazes me to hear that what's really important, is to find teachers and mentors who dive deeply into their research and fundamentals, but they also criticize and can come up with a practical solution that might work (even though there's no research or some form of a proof that it's completely correct, which is kind of stubborn to look for something like that)
Looking forward for more collaborations!
At first I thought this was going to be a beef video. Glad to see there's not much rap beef mentality in this space. Love your content. Your ideas on prioritization and organization have helped me in the past, though I'm sure if I had purchased your training program that I would've done much better.
i've completed the icanstudy course and this video helps understanding the concept of learning once more from a meta perspective, good insights, especially since you are two experts discussing and talking about the topic of learning...it's fun to watch, in general i really enjoy listening to you justin, you've become a calming voice and person i trust over the months, thank you for your course and thank you for creating content and sharing your knowledge
how helpful would you say the course was?
@@miniblitz3971 i completed the course as well. Its phenomenal. However, its exponential. The first 3-5 months are spent on getting the basics down , and then your productivity will skyrocket (when you get to the ascent stages, if you decide to buy it you’ll understand)
@@Gabriel-xn8ye what is SIR if you don’t mind explaining?
@@Gabriel-xn8ye can you give me your accoount of the course please because i can not afford it
@@craigmalcom6294 i need the course but i cant afford it
It's so amazing to see two experts defending their points of view in a very grounded and respectful manner!
Justin and Benjamin all of the video ,the whole video is my cup of tea ,i really liked that you both went deep with the topic ❤ please do more of these things coz i want to hear intelligence talk more like these hour long videos are my favourite
I really like these type of conversation, i hope these can be more frequent. Knowing sides about learning and thoughts
I watched the two of you and you both helped me on my academic journey, so when I see the thumbnail of this video, I'm a bit conflicted, but glad that my presumptions are wrong.
Thank you for this discussion. I watched the other video too and to include the sensory memory made a lot of sense to me as I teach many students on the autism spectrum. To filter and focus their intention is a major obstacle in their learning process. This is an observation based on my experience. Finding more effective ways of learning for the ASD students is what bought me to your channel.
Love to see ya discuss instead of argue. Would love to see more collaboration from u guys 👍🏾
i Would LOVE for you to do more long form content like this. this was SOOO Informative.
try doing a podcast or something (with video, because some of these topics need visual examples & explanations) but don't make it a weekly/monthly thing.
do it when you find someone like Ben (someone who is as knowledgeable / experiences in the topic of learning, & is will to discuss technical aspects of the topics & field issues in detail).
...
i simply can't put into words how good this was.
i got soo much out of this, even though a lot of what was said i already had a concrete idea of, but watching field experts acknowledge it & recontextualize it was fascinating.
thank you.
i would like to see thomas frank, healthygamergg and others that i don't remember right now
This was PACKED with value. I came back here just to say I have kind of used the ideas in this video as "key concepts" to add onto overtime and it has tremendously helped with learning the underlying cognitive processes (actually felt the differences between linear and relational note-taking). Maybe it isn't the best idea but I just always come back to that "Learning is complicated" conclusion for everything haha.
Justin’s point about academic research at the 10 minute mark is just what I’ve been thinking about lately. Commentary on academic research needs to be continually validated with reference to other research, which is referencing other research. Hardly anyone goes at something from a new angle, and if they dare to, they usually get shot straight down with either the argument the guys were talking about or simply the assertion that they’re some type of kook or fringe, conspiracy theorist. Just think about how the medical fraternity jumped on recent ‘preventative interventions’ that are only now having their actual research results and subsequent dangers fully exposed to the wider public. Fantastic to actually hear two knowledgable academics discussing things they understand openly.
😮😢 This was how I felt when I heard Dr. Benjamin was here. But noble minded people can have civil discourse. Great job guys. Hopefully the rest of UA-cam takes note
ahhhh, yes~! personally speaking, the more long-form content from you, the better! also this was such an insightful discussion between you two!
I love this mature and intellectually simmered exchange
I've learnt a lot from both your channels.
Love this shout out
Edit: I'm just now realizing that this a full on collaboration 😢
Pretty sure benjamin said he’d do a collab in the call out video
This was such a good video. Thank you to both of you.
I struggle to do spaced retrieval correctly :/
This video it is actually eye-opening ,enlightening, and also filling up the missing pieces in my puzzle in understanding the whole learning process
This was an interesting conversation! There was a lot of information in there that I felt filled in some of the gaps from previous videos I’d watched.
I’m currently going to school for engineering, working full time and have two kids under two so I’ve been wanting to learn how I can learn/study more efficiently/effectively. I’m doing pretty good right now but it’s definitely not scalable and Id like to be able to take on more classes so I’m not stuck in school for six years.
I’d be very willing to be a data point on different study / learning techniques
Wow! This was really so engaging! This actually shows how much we misinterpret, and how little we know about these things and make some assumptions based on these misinterpretation. this video was quite interesting! Would love to hear more discussions like this in the future! Please consider doing more videos like this. ❣
I have just discovered both of you recently. Keep first, but then I saw his video on Sung so I looked him up, too. At 73 and wanting to improve at chess, not grades (finished M.A. in linguistics in 1981), I'm watching all these younger players pass me by. I might not be your most common type of student, but I am enjoying these. Still hoping to improve my study techniques, although not sure how to apply your info to chess learning. Thanks to both of you.
It is such a pleasure to see this community excited and committed for the pursuit of knowledge and its own methods of acquisition regardless of any age Bracket, Very happy to see you here, sir.
He have some more videos about chess on his channel
Great video. Re speed reading: for law, high speed skimming is essential, as you might have to scan through thousands of pages of documents a day and quickly decide what is relevant to read more closely. Often there are not contents pages to help you identify the structure - you have to pick it up from scanning for key words, focusing on topic sentences etc. You’re not trying to absorb everything, you’re trying to control your absorption rate so it’s not too much and not too little. I’d be interested in your thoughts on the best way to teach and develop that skill.
so happy to see yall in one video. been watching you for a bit and yt algorithm recomrmded benjamin and watching both of you has taken my learning to a whole different level. Where were you when i was in college lol😂
Dropping a note I made while watching this video:
Ques are something that can be associated with a subject to make a forced retrieval of it from memory.
If you wish to actually contain the information you try to encode it's best to completely ignore ques. They are making that you are not learning the subject, you are learning ques around it to retrieve it when met with said ques later. *It makes it so you can't retrieve information by itself and have to rely on ques for it*
Using ques for retrieval is best when you do it not for a subject, but a group of them. Using it for individual subjects makes that you won't remember them in the first place, but using it for a group makes it so you can tag them closer to your memory space you are in.
working in research atm and am mentoring college students in executive functioning skills and better learning techniques at my institution. loved this discussion, I too am disappointed by the nature of a lot of learning science research. was fun to see Justin take the opportunity to vent about some areas in research-praxis-industry that seem to have been weighing on his mind for a while 😂
(can deeply relate to this as a researcher in applied linguistics.....)
super useful conversation, would love to see this become a more regular occurrence. a sort of learning science roundtable, if you will
That was good. More collabs with this guy please 😊
These men are carrying my life with this knowledge. Thank you.
I love the collaboration. Thanks guys for doing this.
Benjamin is awesome, really concise and an awesome teacher here in UA-cam. I highly recommend him.
loved the collab! looking forward to more discussion-like videos
Really glad that this vid was a conversation rather than a response video to a response, I find it helps to look at their views more objectively
This is very nifty! Thank you both for being mature enough to debate these differences.
great convo. efficient, to the point, informative, and grounded. easy to enjoy, challenging in the right ways. tyty for helping me plan a workshop putting together learning & cognition
Glad it was helpful! (btw have a great day)
My two favorite learning scientists / learning youtubers collaborating on a 1hr video together? SIGN ME UP.
Ben Keep is great, his content deserves way more views in the future, hope more people discover him.
You should definitely start a podcast together. Such a pleasure listening to your expertise
A former doctor and former lawyer discuss education. As a professional linguist, I sit down and listen.
I am reading the book: Think Again (Adam Grant). And this video helps me understand clearly how to rethink what we think. Thank you!
Two of my favorite learning specialist in one video, nice 😮
This is so interesting! I wish you would recommend books and articles to allow myself to go deeper into the subject.
it would be interesting if they touched on modes of thinking - slow conscious, faster emotional and super fast automatic without any thinking like a muscle memory
and how it affects consuming and returning informations
Wow this made me realize all the nuances that go into researching these types of topics.
I love the discussion of you both..💕🔥and thank you..for all of your videos; giving me suggestions to have an effective study..,💕🥳
Thankyou to the both of you - !!
37:10 is where the real learning argument starts!! (Just ignore the company part from 48:01 to 55:47): Encoding vs Retrieval doesn't really matter; it's about desirable difficulties [= spaced practice, interleaved practice, contextual variation, testing; all these share the commonality of the process of retrieval (bringing info from ltm to stm & then to working memory)]. Thus higher-order-retrieval-skills (effective ways of testing the skills) transforms into deliberate practice- higher order thinking/learning, applying ideas to new contexts/context variation, associating info, synthesizing concepts, comparing concepts, (re)organizing concepts, applying concepts to solve problems, etc.
I know I am very late to the party, but I am one of those guys you were talking about! I am a UX Researcher working primarily in the games and interactive software industry. Which means I am also forced into the role of being a practitioner, and I am trying to fill that gap you are talking about where people in these industries have no expertise in learning theory or cognitive science/psychology! My Master's thesis was on adapting what we know about cognitive load to standard methods we use to gather data in my field. I wanted you all to know that we do exist though it is a huge struggle against corporate malpractice.
I really enjoy this discussion though, and I hope to see more content like this in the future from both of you! This really helps me to continue synthesizing my own knowledge around the topic and advocating for change in my industry! Thanks for this Justin and Benjamin!
may i learn how to learn anything from encoding
I watched Justin's videos and then UA-cam started recommending benzamin's videos for me for some time and now they are on same video.
They both are great learning coach
this is the good stuff! constructive criticisms between two gurus really provide a quality insight into the methods of studying and improving efficiency, i can really learn a lot from this
Hi Justin and Benjamin. It appears to me that a lot of work has gone into research techniques to improve memory without addressing the issue of why we forget information in the first place. It seems that it's accepted that forgetting is a natural process our brain does to protect itself, but is this really true?
I've been researching and experimenting with emotions and the ways they affect our mental and physical health for 14 years. What I've recently discovered is that using some of your retrieval techniques has not only helped me improve my ability to retrieve information I WANT to remember, but it has also brought back memories I would much rather forget. This is because the memories I'd rather forget also have emotions attached to them that I wasn't equipped to deal with at the time of the event. Now that I'm in a position to handle these painful and unpleasant emotions effectively, the memory becomes just another memory without an emotion attached to it. The overall result I am finding is that my memory is beginning to improve (after many years of it deteriorating). I am now beginning to believe that memory is not a selective function of the brain. If we choose to forget things that we believe we can't deal with, then we will inhibit our ability to remember things that we want to hold on to. I am really looking forward to learning more of your strategies and experimenting with them in regard to memory as I find it a fascinating subject.
Thanks
The thing is if you memorise the information using flash cards, you will be able to do all the things people say flash cards don’t enable you to do, notably knowing information of 2 ideas enables you to compare them.
Plus you could create flash cards in a way that cover comparisons, context etc.
A very interesting and informative discussion! Good job, guys.
glad you found it insightful!
Benjamin is criminally underated
I found your channel via Benjamin’s video. Been waiting for this collab since!
Welcome aboard!
Both Justin and Benjamin know their stuff
About 40% through this. Fascinating stuff from 2 of my favorite learning science people!
I was excited when Benjamin called Justin out cause I thought "uuuhh we got some drama in the learning community, this is gonna be interesting".
I thought we were about to have our ksi vs jake paul moment in the learning community where they insult each other and each other's family members or any close people for years on various social media platforms, then threaten to take it to the ring but alas, these two have working brains and integrity so my dreams were shuttered.
Why do you guy have to be fully fuctional adults? Why cant you just fight and insult each others friends and family? Why do you have to be rational? Why? Tell me why????
Ruining all the good things.💔💔💔
This video is brilliant. I'm doing a bridging / preparation course to get into a bachelor's degree. In the academic English unit they teach us to read the abstract to get the main idea of the article and to see if it's relevant. Also, they tell us to don't bother reading the methodology part of a journal as we're not conducting our own research. There is a high importance placed on referencing, but also we're not taught how to judge good research it's like if it's peer reviewed and current then that's good enough. I remember asking how do we know if there isn't confirmation bias in the peer review process and they say no there isn't and not to worry about that. Unless you become a researcher yourself how do you learn these things?
Let me go get my popcorn lol I didn’t know you was willing to respond to Dr. Benjamin
Look at the medical school community. They learn complex systems through lecture, homework, case studies, practicals, and technical exams. then have the tens of thousands of flashcards to reinforce / bolster those concepts and to ensure that no small piece of information is forgotten. There is simply no more efficient way to keep all of that "good learning" fresh than to go through the flashcards. I'm more than interested to hear your thoughts.
Encoding and Retrieval.
So very important to understand this when learning\studying these is concepts. I have most problems with retrieval both short and long-term memory.
Justin i wanted to ask - if understanding is enough or if i should aswell use active recall on my understanding.
example: my college-script comes in different layers that i need - one is the fact layer with certain words/facts that will be testet - the second layer is my understanding layer that i need for higher order operations with these facts - so i write a summary, should i then use active recall on the written summary or on the facts alone?
Fascinating debate. Love this constructive dialogue.
Should I be concerned when I can't recall specific concepts I learned from courses I already passed? Is there a method I'm missing that helps me retain past course material for future use? Thanks!
this conversation's content value is right on point👌.
and don't you worry that the visual part eats ass, this stuff is being called "a second screen content" anyways.
thanks for the upload ❤
Amazing discussion. It helped me to understand better SRS and Active Recall, thanks!
I've been waiting for you to find his video xD
Me too.
I wonder why it took so long.
Was waiting for this collab for a very long time.
Fr fr
This is great you should do more podcasts
Thoughts while watching:
Science communication is complex - linear videos are inherently decontextualized.
Research and practice are different things - I agree (research has its own problem - p hacking comes to mind)
The research problem is massive, not just in educational science
Grappling the research issues is a skill we should push as science communicators
Retraction watch is great - that is where synthesis as a skill is something the public should be aware of
You elude to the contention of working memory - I would have liked you to expand
Spaced repetition comes from the original videos about it from Ali - he popularized active recall instead of retrieval practice etc
YES be specific with language!!!
The memory conversation is interesting - I was expecting the free energy principle to be brought in with predictions 🤷♂
Learning app argument - 100% agree!
I have seen that paper cited a lot - most add their own interpretations tho
My question - what is practice that you do that isn't retrieval practice?
Great conversation. Would be good to get a podcast going with educational scientists - I am not aware of one that is specific to this sort of stuff.
The conversations I listen to are fairly niche.
the free energy principle in neuroscience and positing the brain as a prediction system are the biggest scams since mirror neurons. the free energy principle and entropy are of little explanatory use, the brain is an action system not a prediction machine, and mirror neurons, well, let's just say do a literature search on mirror neurons and see what comes up.
Great editing the beginning!
Oh man this is deep and difficult to discuss in any reasonable amount or time or even in one sitting. I’m only 40 min in and this comment would need to be many many paragraphs long to add my experiences and thoughts/hypotheses to all the little topics and mental phenomenons they are picking apart.
Seriously I could probably write a paper/article and a rather long rambling one that just follows this video point by point and adds my practical observations and philosophical thoughts.
finally some honest conversation on YT | well done | cheers
At 10:00~ I completely agree with your evaluation of how a small number of researches shape other less “successful” who seek to add to the relevant science on the same topically area. Unfortunately, researching funding, capitalism (market mechanisms) and policy decisions are the most obvious contributing factors for this IMO. Not necessarily analogous, but if you look at the tech pivot from blockchain to AI, you would have thought AI was nescient technology, perhaps even within the context of large language models (LLM).
Additionally, your identification of the need of liaisons is really critical in a world with silos of information and the messiness of collaboration. The liaison can have a shared understanding of a common nomenclature.
GLAD I FOUND THIS VIDEO BECAUSE I JUS FOLLOWED JUSTIN AND IVE BEEN WATCHIN THE OLD VIDEOS
LIKE THE ONE IN THIS VIDEO/DEBATE/CRITIQUE 😅
Okay... you both just talking about the same concept in different languages... not calling out each other😅
Justin gives more attention to encoding while benjamin gives it on retrieving, which both are essential on learning. Love you both❤
I am most interested in taking the heavy-handed research and finding the practical applications for it as a science communicator. I have no desire to do first-hand research. I want to deliver that research to readers and maximize the number of people who know the information.
Thank you for the video! Is it possible to know in which video Ben talks about the "rabbit hole" he mentions at 17:25?
Spaced repetition is just repeating something, like practice a skill. You can practice skills through a spaced repetition system that doesn't require retrieval. So space retrieval is a subset of space repetition where retrieval is used.
Discussions like this produce nuance and analysis
Hello Justin! I really enjoyed the video and I am nursing student and trying to learn and understand the pharmacology. How I use mind May for this course which I am going to use my career. Thank you for all your good content!
🥳 Great content guys.
mindmap can be used for encoding like priming, make a note and for recall like review
Could you list some of the more informative articles you've read on encoding?
Damn Justin! Quite impressive going right to the source of this criticism. 👏
I understand active recall and spaced repetition to be enhancements on other techniques. So the problem is simply if you use them to enhance an otherwise bad technique, enough that you don't realize your foundation is bad.
Hey Justin, are you willing to name the company at @51:00 that WAS willing to hear you out, because i feel like tget deserved a mention