I demoed one a few months ago while looking for a new wing after my niviuk qubik 21 reached the end of its life.. In my experience with the size 22 @97kgs and a miniplane frame/top80 combo: - Manufacturing quality: very good materials and assembling, and i state this even if i don't like some design features, like the connection points between the wing and the structure are sewn into the canopy structure and not rigged from the bottom loops like other manufacturers do. So i agree with you about the embedded hooking point. I m not a fan either of the super light cloth, it gives me the impression of wearing out faster, but i can't relate to that. Also, and i think it has to with the line rigging scheme, the lines ar prone to tangles and compression knots when the wing is taken off the bag. Risers looked good to me talking about quality of fhe materials, but the procedure of replacing the trim tape requires stitching, so for the majority of us is a way to say it needs to be done by some professional. Agree with tip steering is too high on the risers. - Inflation: the easiest I've ever tried. When launching reverse it doesn't even need pulling the A's. In nil wind forwards, it gets up like a toy. - Handling: not the most agile, but very reassuring in what it does. Stable in pitch and roll but not so much in yaw. And tho this, i prefer to get oscillations i can counteract instead of yaw movements that can send me off course. - Landing: very good flare authority, it bleeds off all the energy floating accross the ground to a very comfortable landing speed. Recapping What i liked: inflation, take off speed, efficiency, landing What i liked less: yaw movements, embedded hooking points, trim tape replacing procedure, ultra light fabric, tip steering toggles too high up, only 3 sizes to choose from It's a very well rounded product, suitable for most pilots but it didn't match my requirements/expectations. I ended up placing an order for a dudek nucleon 4 20sq/m. More agile, a little tiny bit less efficient, but more stable in pitch yaw and roll, a little heavier (and i hope durable) cloth, simpler line rigging scheme, with both 2d steering and separate tip steering toggles placed next to the carabiner points. Btw very nice and unbiased review. I drop a like Keep going like this bruh 🪂
Great review! Thanks for taking the time to write it. Very detailed and a great analysis. Totally agree with you on most of your points. The few I see differently are the scrims (I like the way they are attached to the fabric, but it took me a while to come around to why they were so different) and I actually like the lightweight fabric because I have noticed that the difference in wear over time is very similar to heavier fabrics, but it allows for easier take-offs. I don't think the lines are more prone to tangles than any other sheathed wing. All of the manufacturers get their lines from the same sources and the line schema is pretty standard. Other than that, I think it was spot-on. Thanks for the review and comment.
Apco has a Fors 2 wing also intermedia. And already years ago there was both an OAA system and a separate tips management. And another IBS system that always keeps you under the wing. By the way, I really liked your review. Hope you will do more reviews on spare parachutes as well
Nice job. I have this wing. I have the 26m and am 140kg all up. I got it late last season and I must have about 25 flights or so on it. I too really like this wing. I find it to be quite fast even at neutral trims. Launches are a breeze and if anything I have had to learn to use less A’s and check the wing more aggressively as it wants to fly on launch to say the least. I land with trims neutral and find it I really have to run like mad in nil wind. I think that is more my developing technique than the wings fault. All in all it has become my go to wing. After seeing this review I want to order the tip steer line extension kit!
Thanks for the comment! It seems counterintuitive but coming in faster (trimmed out) allows you to land softer because you bleed off the energy for a longer period of time (if done correctly). It takes a bit of practice as it's extremely easy to balloon up when you have that much speed. Definitely get the kit 😀. Thanks again!
Yes. The opening was 3 different days of filming over a 2 week period. Glad I took the time because the orange flowers didn't come up until the last couple of days I was filming it. Since then the field is now nothing but wild carrot blossoms. Welcome to allergy heaven 😂
Nice review. I 100% agree with you on the separate tipsteer, cant understand how anyone would like to have them that high. I own this wing and ordered it with the 14kit, that makes it soooo comfortable to fly. One thing i would like to add to this review thats a pretty big deal on this wing is the active and passive safety. The reflex is very very solid yet the recovery from collapses are supergood, probably the best in its class. Can be seen at both marlon jonat and apcos youtube videos. I sold my nucleon 4 to buy the F3 mainly due to the safety.
Thanks for the comment. Yes I agree with you on the passive safety of this wing. If you've owned the wing a while I'd like to know how your trim stitching is holding up.
@@mydogischoking i just have 15 hours on it so far so its a little to early to tell. However i dont use the trimmers much so i bet they will hold up good. Im at neutral 95% of the time unless im all the way out. I hope they release nicer trimmers because the original ones dont give a good impression. I wish everyone had dudek style trims.
Wing loading on Apco F3 according to the published figures is lower than other wings in this category. I am 120 kg all up. I own Apco F3 24m, Nucleon 4 22m, and just got a Hadron 3 20m. I flew all 3 today and found the the F3 very numb compared to the other 2. To me the F3 is closer to Ozone Spyder, or Dudek Solo than Speedster 3, Nuc 4, or Hadron 3. I am not sure if this due to the wing design or lower wing loading.
I was testing the 22 meter (the smallest of the 3 sizes). I weighed about 180 at the time of testing and my all up would vary depending on the amount of gas I had in the tank (I took it on shorter and longer flights so the weight would vary quite a bit). Frankly I would have liked to see that glider in a smaller size as lift was not an issue even fully loaded, and I think it would be a nice nimble glider at a smaller size, albeit still an XC glider.
I've been looking at the Apco's. Seems the brand puts a much wider weight range spec on each wing size than most other brands. For example the 25M F2 has a weight range of 70-140 kg, whereas a competing wing like the MacPara Colorado2 24M has a weight range of 105-145. Any thoughts or insights on this? I'm just thinking a 70kg pilot on the F2 would be tossed around like a rag doll.
The F1 is a very different beast than the F3, and they don't really compare. I'd reach out to Apco about the weight ranges, they are pretty good at responding.
When using the speedbar how is the weight on your legs fully extended? On my charger it is exhausting after an hour or more. What is the speed like without using the pk system fully trimmed out and the with speedbar?
With OAA (PK system) or speedbar+trims out, is the exact same configuration of the wing, so the speed is the exact same. Pushing the speedbar for long periods of time is a great leg workout. Thanks for the comment.
@@matthewpesce765 If I was looking for a XC wing in this class: Absolutely! Ozone makes some good wings (my primary wing is a Freeride 2), but the Sirocco 3 is nothing special. I'd buy an F3, Hadron 3, Falcon, or Kougar 3 (depending on what kind of flying I prefer) before I'd purchase the Sirocco 3. There's just nothing special about that wing that a few others in the market aren't better at.
@@mydogischokingcould you quickly summarize the key point/ differences about he wings you just mentioned (F3, hadron, falcon,...). For example, most agile, fastest, most stable in turbulence,..
@@mydogischoking Which would you say is the most agile? What has me looking at the Sirocco3/F3 is the light weight builds. Would definitely help nil wind foot launches with my bad leg but I do want something that is a noticeable performance bump from my Roadster3.
I demoed one a few months ago while looking for a new wing after my niviuk qubik 21 reached the end of its life..
In my experience with the size 22 @97kgs and a miniplane frame/top80 combo:
- Manufacturing quality: very good materials and assembling, and i state this even if i don't like some design features, like the connection points between the wing and the structure are sewn into the canopy structure and not rigged from the bottom loops like other manufacturers do. So i agree with you about the embedded hooking point. I m not a fan either of the super light cloth, it gives me the impression of wearing out faster, but i can't relate to that. Also, and i think it has to with the line rigging scheme, the lines ar prone to tangles and compression knots when the wing is taken off the bag. Risers looked good to me talking about quality of fhe materials, but the procedure of replacing the trim tape requires stitching, so for the majority of us is a way to say it needs to be done by some professional. Agree with tip steering is too high on the risers.
- Inflation: the easiest I've ever tried. When launching reverse it doesn't even need pulling the A's. In nil wind forwards, it gets up like a toy.
- Handling: not the most agile, but very reassuring in what it does. Stable in pitch and roll but not so much in yaw. And tho this, i prefer to get oscillations i can counteract instead of yaw movements that can send me off course.
- Landing: very good flare authority, it bleeds off all the energy floating accross the ground to a very comfortable landing speed.
Recapping
What i liked: inflation, take off speed, efficiency, landing
What i liked less: yaw movements, embedded hooking points, trim tape replacing procedure, ultra light fabric, tip steering toggles too high up, only 3 sizes to choose from
It's a very well rounded product, suitable for most pilots but it didn't match my requirements/expectations.
I ended up placing an order for a dudek nucleon 4 20sq/m.
More agile, a little tiny bit less efficient, but more stable in pitch yaw and roll, a little heavier (and i hope durable) cloth, simpler line rigging scheme, with both 2d steering and separate tip steering toggles placed next to the carabiner points.
Btw very nice and unbiased review.
I drop a like
Keep going like this bruh 🪂
Great review! Thanks for taking the time to write it. Very detailed and a great analysis. Totally agree with you on most of your points. The few I see differently are the scrims (I like the way they are attached to the fabric, but it took me a while to come around to why they were so different) and I actually like the lightweight fabric because I have noticed that the difference in wear over time is very similar to heavier fabrics, but it allows for easier take-offs. I don't think the lines are more prone to tangles than any other sheathed wing. All of the manufacturers get their lines from the same sources and the line schema is pretty standard. Other than that, I think it was spot-on. Thanks for the review and comment.
Great honest video Kris. It was good to have a second opinion included in the video as well.
Thank you!
Good video and review. Erics a movie star!
APCO just released the Nestra, so cool
Apco has a Fors 2 wing also intermedia. And already years ago there was both an OAA system and a separate tips management. And another IBS system that always keeps you under the wing. By the way, I really liked your review. Hope you will do more reviews on spare parachutes as well
I'll be looking at this wing soon !
Great review! My kinda wing.
Thanks.
Great choice! Let me know what you think of the wing.
Great Review - Thank you Kris for sharing!!
My pleasure! Thank you so much!
Nice job. I have this wing. I have the 26m and am 140kg all up. I got it late last season and I must have about 25 flights or so on it. I too really like this wing.
I find it to be quite fast even at neutral trims. Launches are a breeze and if anything I have had to learn to use less A’s and check the wing more aggressively as it wants to fly on launch to say the least.
I land with trims neutral and find it I really have to run like mad in nil wind. I think that is more my developing technique than the wings fault.
All in all it has become my go to wing. After seeing this review I want to order the tip steer line extension kit!
I have the F3 large too. I fly it with a Polini Thor 202. I usually use the tip steering and breaks together. Ever tried that?
Thanks for the comment! It seems counterintuitive but coming in faster (trimmed out) allows you to land softer because you bleed off the energy for a longer period of time (if done correctly). It takes a bit of practice as it's extremely easy to balloon up when you have that much speed. Definitely get the kit 😀. Thanks again!
Wonderful overview done with integrity
Thank you.
Beautiful area, Kris. This must be Texas with flowers in full bloom? Love you, kid.
Yes. The opening was 3 different days of filming over a 2 week period. Glad I took the time because the orange flowers didn't come up until the last couple of days I was filming it. Since then the field is now nothing but wild carrot blossoms. Welcome to allergy heaven 😂
This was a good video. Thanks so much for sharing! Helpful!
Nice review. I 100% agree with you on the separate tipsteer, cant understand how anyone would like to have them that high. I own this wing and ordered it with the 14kit, that makes it soooo comfortable to fly.
One thing i would like to add to this review thats a pretty big deal on this wing is the active and passive safety. The reflex is very very solid yet the recovery from collapses are supergood, probably the best in its class. Can be seen at both marlon jonat and apcos youtube videos. I sold my nucleon 4 to buy the F3 mainly due to the safety.
Thanks for the comment. Yes I agree with you on the passive safety of this wing. If you've owned the wing a while I'd like to know how your trim stitching is holding up.
@@mydogischoking i just have 15 hours on it so far so its a little to early to tell. However i dont use the trimmers much so i bet they will hold up good. Im at neutral 95% of the time unless im all the way out. I hope they release nicer trimmers because the original ones dont give a good impression. I wish everyone had dudek style trims.
Good Video, Tks!! Saludos desde México!!
Gracias! I just found your channel - great content! You have a new subscriber. Keep up the great videos.
nice review, good job
Glad to see you back at it! I have an idea of your new direction... Bet you'll save on gas
Ha ha ha! Come with me!
Wing loading on Apco F3 according to the published figures is lower than other wings in this category. I am 120 kg all up. I own Apco F3 24m, Nucleon 4 22m, and just got a Hadron 3 20m. I flew all 3 today and found the the F3 very numb compared to the other 2. To me the F3 is closer to Ozone Spyder, or Dudek Solo than Speedster 3, Nuc 4, or Hadron 3. I am not sure if this due to the wing design or lower wing loading.
Thanks for the review! May I ask what wing size you tested and what your all-up weight is?
I was testing the 22 meter (the smallest of the 3 sizes). I weighed about 180 at the time of testing and my all up would vary depending on the amount of gas I had in the tank (I took it on shorter and longer flights so the weight would vary quite a bit). Frankly I would have liked to see that glider in a smaller size as lift was not an issue even fully loaded, and I think it would be a nice nimble glider at a smaller size, albeit still an XC glider.
I've been looking at the Apco's. Seems the brand puts a much wider weight range spec on each wing size than most other brands. For example the 25M F2 has a weight range of 70-140 kg, whereas a competing wing like the MacPara Colorado2 24M has a weight range of 105-145. Any thoughts or insights on this? I'm just thinking a 70kg pilot on the F2 would be tossed around like a rag doll.
I thought the same... maybe because they are not reflex?
The F1 is a very different beast than the F3, and they don't really compare. I'd reach out to Apco about the weight ranges, they are pretty good at responding.
Both the F1 and F3 are reflex wings.
When using the speedbar how is the weight on your legs fully extended? On my charger it is exhausting after an hour or more. What is the speed like without using the pk system fully trimmed out and the with speedbar?
With OAA (PK system) or speedbar+trims out, is the exact same configuration of the wing, so the speed is the exact same. Pushing the speedbar for long periods of time is a great leg workout. Thanks for the comment.
Um, the trimmers are differently labled by length of the increment lines. Right?
Yes...but you'll still count (3rd one down from the little one on the left... now where's the little one of the right...) There's a better way.
Have you flown the Sirocco 3, if so how does it compare?
Meh. Nothing special about that wing. It's just average on everything. I'd pass on it because there are much better wings out there in the same class.
@@mydogischoking so you would take the F3 over the Sirocco?
@@matthewpesce765 If I was looking for a XC wing in this class: Absolutely! Ozone makes some good wings (my primary wing is a Freeride 2), but the Sirocco 3 is nothing special. I'd buy an F3, Hadron 3, Falcon, or Kougar 3 (depending on what kind of flying I prefer) before I'd purchase the Sirocco 3. There's just nothing special about that wing that a few others in the market aren't better at.
@@mydogischokingcould you quickly summarize the key point/ differences about he wings you just mentioned (F3, hadron, falcon,...). For example, most agile, fastest, most stable in turbulence,..
@@mydogischoking Which would you say is the most agile? What has me looking at the Sirocco3/F3 is the light weight builds. Would definitely help nil wind foot launches with my bad leg but I do want something that is a noticeable performance bump from my Roadster3.
Ever notice the pond across from your house looks like a map of the US?
Never noticed that until now... and now I can't unsee it.