I dont think that is the issue, think some people felt not enough nods were given to the inspuring system, as for me, I see how tge dice pool and minimal mechabics can be traced to games from the 80s and 90s, nithibg really new here
Yeah, I'm not surprised most players had no idea of the history of RPG mechanics, but given we just went through all of this with the OGL scandal I would have thought more people would realize that lawsuits to prevent people from using your game mechanics are not only legally dubious, but pure poison from a public relations perspective. Most independent creators would be thrilled if Critical Role used their material as long as some acknowledgement was made.
I saw its mechanics and was like "Oh, it's a Forged in the Dark system" I didn't even realize that people were going to be outraged about this. TTRPGs are generally about borrowing mechanics and rules and changing them to fit your vision. As long as acknowledgment is given, there should be no issues.
There were two major criticisms against Candella, the first one was "The system is too narrative, I wanted a crunchy tactical system" and the other one was the Blades in the Dark "ripoff" that PDM is talking about in the video. I suspect those two are one in the same with the latter being said as a legit sounding reason as opposed to just complaining about why they didn't rip off D&D like they wanted.
ALWAYS be wary of the one stating that they are that adult. Also this "scandal" can be something that Crit themselves drummed up for PR reasons... Like keeping the audience from leaving because of, not merely the system change, changed game content.
I mean, he left out all the TSR, White Dwarf, and game ip law suits that plagued the industry from the beginning of the hobby. He brought up Gigax and Arnison collaborating, but did not bring up the fact they sued each other over d&d and Arnison got royalties for D&D and WotC had to buy it back from him to call 3e "D&D" without the Advanced part. Largely smaller publishers do not sue because they do not have the money to win or the people ripping them off do not have the money to make it worth their time. Every legal challenge is an arguement decided by a judge of what legally qualifies, so that is a big risk if they say something that moves that goal post; ie, TSR sued Gary Gigax for trying to put out Dangerous Demensions because if you say gigax and DD on a cover the average consumer would think it is a D&D book, and Gigax lost that one. No small publisher wants to take the risk and the larger guys are usually not threatened by you typing up rules that violate their ip if you sell less than 100 copies because they will never get their money back.
@@Iwouldlikesomeshisha I can't speak to being a master artiste or adult, but I taught my sons that a gentleman is a man who cares as much about the comfort of those around him as he does about his own. It's better to know that you are striving to be a gentleman than have others perceive you as one, if you take my meaning.
I was super excited when I saw Stras was designing Candela Obscura. I'd just watched an actual play of him running another game he designed: Scum and Villainy, which is based on the Blades in the Dark / Forged in the Dark rules, but tweaked for space opera. I had assumed that the Critical Role people - not professional game designers - were just going to put out a D&D clone so they'd be free of Wizards, but this was much better news: a game designed by a professional with a proven track record, specifically tuned to Critical Role's gaming needs. And now people are complaining? I think the community has just really enjoyed Wizards' gaffes and antics and is thirsty for more controversy. Look elsewhere guys. This is a crit success.
@@xxthevampirate Baby steps. Rome wasn't built in a day, and D&D wasn't perfected in a single edition. I'm certain Candela Obscura will evolve as more people play and run the system.
@@dwil0311 Exactly. Idk why anyone beyond the age of 12 thinks similarities in design/look/story means one is a 1:1 copycat of the other. And I think it bothers me mostly because I used to be like that when I was a kid, but I grew out of that even if it was several years later than it should've taken. I'm actually wondering how many of the people who say that really are just ignorant youngsters utilizing their easy access to social media to spout some half-baked, pseudo-critical mush.
Correction, they are professional game designers, they’ve made loads of games before including previous systems so I’m not surprised that they’re creating new systems.
IIRC, "Blades In The Dark" book includes permission for you to make whatever you want with it, inside the book itself. Basically an open license. That's why there have been some other directly derived BitD games. Using bits from other tabletop games is the norm, anyway. As you said, game mechanics can't be copyrighted, so it's not a big deal unless it's a word-for-word copy of the setting and all. Hell, it's always good to see something other than D&D clones, and 5e specifically, getting wider attention.
The "Forged in the Dark" open license in Blades in the Dark does require attribution, though. That said, I think it's abundantly clear Candela is sufficiently distinct from BitD and if John Harper is fine with, then nobody should be going around trying to start beef on his behalf.
1. Freedom to use is not freedom to omit credit; 2. "game mechanics can't be Copyrighted" is far from an assured thing. It's more like: there's reasonable ground to assume game mechanics can't be copyrighted, but a well presented case could very well change it.
It was a quickstart document. A free PDF showing how the game is played. Game designers put those out all the time without attribution. The finished product is where credit needs to be given.
@@dwil0311 that's kind of the whole point of why a well presented case can change the usual understanding of the legal interpretation. Sometimes rules and content expression are to closely intertwined - and even in the cases when a good amount of distinction is achievable the line is still fuzzy.
It's worth noting that this is Stras Acimovic's third FitD game so far, and it looks like there's definitely some neat tweaks I haven't seen before (Drives for example) in FitD games.
So many people are going to discover Blades in the Dark (and other indie RPGs) specifically because of Candela Obscura. This is an amazing time for the entire hobby, and when it comes to big influential voices, we could hardly hope for better than the members of Critical Role.
To rat on myself a bit: As one of the 25ish year-olds who actually put a Blades comment on the Candela episode 1, I'm so thankful for this video. Getting the background on the TTRPG scene and on the creation of Candela is the complete picture I needed. Thanks for bringing us up to speed!
Exactly. I can't understand how people can be upset at WOTC for trying to shut off open-source gaming, and then get upset that CO takes advantage of open-source gaming. I guess for some people, being upset is the whole point.
That has really been grinding my gears since I first heard of the chowderheads accusing CR of 'stealing'. Were you not paying attention? Just this spring? Ten thousand videos, posts, and comments saying that one could not copyright game mechanics? And I don't expect a full "Thanks and Acknowledgements" page on a stripped down, free-to-download quickstart ruleset.
When my kids were little we had our own system. A “roll” to hit would be something like me asking them what’s 3+7, if they got it right it was a hit, or depending on how long it took to answer, how successful they were. Maybe I should trade mark that.
I like it. But, as stated, you can't copyright game mechanics. And I'm quite certain that "basic math" is public domain anyway. BUT you definitely SHOULD publish it! We need more introductory, kid-friendly games!
One'a my biggest regrets when publishing my first RPG was that I didn't plagiarize the good things _enough_. I tried to originate more -- to the peril of some game aspects.
This is a trap I fall into a lot. You want to do something blindingly original and throw out all the familiar ideas, and then you quickly realize that some ideas keep being used because they work.
I'm 36 and knew that there was nothing to see here, and everything was cool even played some 2nd edition dnd in my day but really cut my teeth on 3rd. Sadly 0-100 reactions seem to be the new norm these days though...
I watched about an hour of Candela Obscura and didn't clutch my pearls at the similarities to Blades. As Stras Acimovic is on the design team for the base game should we really be surprised that Evil Hat ideas are in the game?
Reminds me of what Elvis Costello said when folks were accusing Olivia Rodrigo of ripping off Pump It Up. "This is fine by me. It's how rock & roll works. You take the broken pieces of another thrill and make a brand new toy." Before saying he lifted the riff from Bob Dylan, who lifted it from Chuck Berry. One of those things that functions better with "works cited" rather than copyright.
As a massive fan of Blades in the Dark, I was only partially surprised listening to the "How To Play: Candela Obscura (Critical Role's New RPG)" video by Spenser Stark that quite so much of the core system was so similar. Tabletop roleplay games have always canibalised each other so that wasn't the issue to me. Nor do I think Candela Obscure actually *is* a Forged in the Dark system, as close as it is. Personally I was a little disapointed that they didn't give a shout out to Blades/Forged in the Dark, Vaesen and other systems in their video as inspirations for the system during the video. Given how much of a platform they have. A single sentance of "a new game inspired by great games such as..." Esp. since as well regarded as it has been since it was released BiTD doesn't have anywhere near popularity of D&D. But overall it's a bit of a storm in a teacup, esp. given that Spencer Starke and CR have gone out of their way to add the hap-tipping reference.
They should have wrote the touchstones in the beginning of the quickstart instead in the end (like most indie TTRPGs due). Otherwise it's easly missed.
i would also like to point out that the roll a bunch of D6 and get a six is pretty similar to the roll a bunch of d10 and get an 8 or higher from the world of darkness stuff. In the end there's only a limited ammount of stuff you can do with dice.
Only a limited amount of stuff you can do with dice before you start getting really convoluted to the point that it's incredibly unfun. There's a reason that most games with dice use them in mostly similar ways. Because the "fun" is supposed to be the most important part.
I am currently writing up my 6th ttrpg from my own brain. However, the influences from other games are for sure a part of them all. Good mechanics are good mechanics. I think CR will see this blow over.
Lmao. I told a good friend of mine during their first game, oh hey, this system is a lot like Blades in the Dark. Later I noticed a lot of similarities with Vaesen. I didn't really think much of it because I'm used to the extremely open approach to design of the OSR. The inspiration is absolutely obvious, but IMO, calling it a "rip off" is just silly.
I also feel some people didn't experience the Era where we had to basically hide that we played TTRPGs. It's only relatively recently that playing RPGs have been en vogue
It is a little strange that TTRPGs are openly played and that it doesn't get you stuffed in a locker anymore. I welcome that RPGs have gone a bit mainstream.
This is a very understated, but important part of the hobby history. Players of early TTRPGs, or even non-family board games were often met with a vituperative, condemning spirit. You often felt like you won the lottery when you were fortunate enough to meet even *one* person who played or was interested, let alone a group willing to meet in a basement or at the library. I'm thankful for this new epoch where the inner geek of so many can be expressed. It brings so much more exposure and participation and I think that's been great for the games and for the social experiences
@onejdc My experience playing D&D in the 90s and 2000s was met with heavy bullying and a talking to from my middle school principal about the dangers of black magic, which was scary, but in hindsight hilarious. Glad it's way more accepted now.
@@broceollomon Yep! I even had multiple copies of a book "Turmoil in the Toybox" given to me about the dangers of D&D....now some school districts are implementing official afterschool D&D clubs....Times have changed so much and I'm so thankful. Also very sad to hear about your experience, I wish it were more atypical.
At this stage in the game if you have thought of it so have many others. When you base a game around a popular setting. Victorian steampunk on this case and use an already known game mechanic. Of course you will get overlap. The respectful thing to do os do what CR did. Thank and recognize those that have inspired you. No harm no foul I say.
It's not even really steampunk, it's more so industrial revolution/turn of the century since they use electricity instead of steam. I'm definitely being a bit pedantic but as a fan of dieselpunk I hate when everything gets called steampunk.
Most indie games die of obscurity rather than suffer from being stolen. Indie game designers are usually more open to people using their content because it draws attention to their stuff. I think Knave or Maze Rats came with a word version of the whole text of the game so you could cut & paste the whole base rule set into your game to add to it and I want to say they explicitly give you permissions to do it. That having been said; bigger game companies sueing smaller ones for this sort of thing has happened since the start of gaming and still continues. There are some people that are happy with a tip of the hat, but if Blades in the Dark were owned by a Paizo sized company, they might sue; especially because they are bypassing the "Forged in the Dark" license to make their own "Illuminated Worlds" system which the license gives the biggest benefit to the primary creator. The professor left out how TSR sued a lot of people (Dave Arnison, Gary Gigax, Nintendo, and dozens of small up start gaming companies) in the "good old days where everyone got along." I do not think John Harper has a problem with this because of statements he made, but they are coming at Blades in the Dark at the end of the product's life. The same reason WotC did not sue Swords & Wizardry for ripping off BX d&d is because the money is in the new game, not the old one, generally speaking. Unlike novels, games usually do not see a rise to popularity once they are past their prime. Lastly, a lot of the claims about how much protection your ip has is speculative and a lot of these issues have not really been tested in court because no one wants to spend the money and find out. WotC thought they could enforce the other versions of the ogl and they have very, very good lawyers. The reason the community freaked out is because a lot of this has not been tested in court. Ie, there was a serious talk about if WotC could sue someone for a "saving throw" or a "strength check" being used because it is a specific name of a mechanic; the d20+x mechanic cannot be copywriten but it becomes less clear if you are using specific terms and such. There might be a case, depending on the final version of the game. To quote the Rules Lawyer, a real, practicing lawyer, "anyone who tells you a legal challenge has a certain outcome is wrong."
Yeah, there's credits to Blades in the Dark in the end of the starter PDF. I'm totally fine with taking parts of a system that just fits extremely well and build something else from it, as long as it's credited. You can only invent the wheel once and if it fits it fits.
@@oz_jones Yeah. I really don't think though there was any malicious thoughts behind it. It was missing, I'm glad they corrected that. That said, I would have loved them to have opened with a statement that it was heavily inspired by this and that game because, well, the one thing it is not, is an all new, original system. It's founded on something else.
This is actually really valuable context for me. I'm 25 and started playing TTRPGs in 2014. I started watching Wil Wheaton's Titansgrave show and then moved on to DND when Geek and Sundry started airing Critical Role. All the people I played with were also brand new to the game, and we didn't have anyone to hand down this history to us. Thanks for making this video
The 80s was an explosion of innovation, fresh new ideas and loads of fertile genres to build entirely new systems around. Here we are 40 years later and now we get excited about tweaks of existing systems (not to put down or diminish the work of our current generation of creators) coming out. That said, we also live in an era where we've never had more choice and freedom in our hobby to find a system that sings to us in exactly the way we're looking for.
And yet, people seem to cling to the same old stuff, I ha e had playerd walk away, when I broughtvtrying new systems, of course I do hook in new players using dnd As a GM and Playrr from those misty days, it is hard to get excited about some of these "new" systems as we have seen it before, Dice pools ,oh you mean Petersens Ghostbusters and WEG d6, minimal stats, yep been there,
Wow a Chill shoutout. I really thought everyone had forgotten that system. I ran quite a few really fun sessions of that game back in the day. In addition to sharing your thoughts on the scandal, thanks for sending me down memory lane PDM.
TTRPGs are one of the few art forms where there is no skill barrier between yourself and a great product that can be appreciated deeply by others. When it comes to drawing pictures, making music, or creating movies everyone gets intimidated, but TTRPGs have a much lower base to clear, even with the full force of the Matt Mercer Effect in play. I think that low bar allowing basically anyone to be a creator will always keep the hobby on some level a collective, democratic experience. While it may look like D&D is a monopoly, the OGL crisis proves the hobby is unmonopolable
I think part of the issue is that there was some initial claims from Darrington Press that this system would be original. When it was finally showcased without a word or mention of its clear sources of inspiration - e.g., Blades in the Dark, Vaesen, etc. - I think that rubbed people the wrong way. I mean, yeah, John Harper was inspired by Apocalypse World, but he never shied away from that influence. Vincent Baker is twice in the opening thanks, one for his work on BOTH Blades in the Dark AND Dogs in the Vineyard, but also as one his "fellow 'thiefy game' designers." I'm also reminded of fantasy authors. There were authors like Moorcock and Le Guin who - for all their own originality - would be incredibly vocal about their influences from fellow authors and prior works. Even writers like GRRM is pretty vocal about his influences. But then there were authors like J.K. Rowling and Andrzej Sapkowski who often denied, ignored, or disregarded their fantasy forebearers while other people in the press who were ignorant of the fantasy genre often praised their originality. (See Ursula K LeGuin's smack down of JK Rowling.) You are welcome to dismiss this all as jealousy of success, but I do think that there is some resentment, not of Critical Role's success, but from presenting something derivative as being original without acknowledging the conversation of game design in the TTRPG scene or in the fantasy writing scene.
The "words of the Red Hot Chili Peppers" are particularly ironic because Anthony Keidis was convinced Faith No More's Mike Patton was ripping him off in the music video for Epic and held that grudge on for decades, costing FNM and Patton's other band Mr. Bungle some big gigs as a result.
It's also funny that he relates it to musicians not being able to copyright chords and progressions, when there have been 2 VERY high profile lawsuits recently about exactly that. Each one setting a different precedent.
I’ve written a few very small games myself and a lot of people have this weird thing about what copyright actually is and how the community works. First off making a brand new system that no one has ever seen before, is not gonna happen at this point. All dice systems and TTRPG systems in general can be improved, modified and changed slightly to fit a theme or idea a little better. Most systems have already been tried and either were adopted or failed to really work. New ideas will always come out but the core dice systems we used are meant to be adapted and modified. You can’t copyright a system because we don’t have that many to begin with. I’m actually super excited to play the game as I like what it’s doing for the system and presentation wise I was impressed. It looks fun. And that’s what I think people are missing, it’s going to be a fun game to play with friends.
People seem to want to get angry about something. But I think all games benefit from and are built on the backs of others. That can only lead to better and more interesting games. I’m really excited to see where RPG’s go and what new developments we see in them in the coming years.
People? Or WoTC paid provocateurs or even pinkertons? So many bots and marketers online, I wouldn't be surprised if this was all paid outrage to hurt them for abandoning D&D.
As an old fan of Apocalypse World (and Powered by the Apocalypse adjacent systems, e.g. Masks, Monster of the Week) I was *happy* when I saw all the similarities to what I was already familiar with and a fan of appear in Candela Obscura. Now, maybe this is me living under some kind of TTRPG rock, but the first time I even heard of Blades in the Dark was... in the comment section of the Obscura intro video, with people complaining it was some kind of BitD rip-off, and I was sitting there, quite confused, going, "No it's just Powered by the Apocalypse with extra dice. What's the big deal?" So I did a little digging and found out, hey, BitD spun off of PbtA concepts, so I was right in noticing the lineage. SO that just left me even more confused over why people were so hostile to the idea of a spin-off of BitD, since these kinds of playbook-centric systems are pretty much designed to be hacked up and modified into new things anyways. There are hundreds of variant systems under just the PbtA and BitD umbrellas alone. I saw, and still see, the launch of Candela Obscura as a great thing for non-D20 systems. DnD, PF, and their D20 competitors have taken so much of the TTRPG spotlight, that a major group like CritRole showcasing a D6 Playbook engine will inevitably have the knock-on effect of exposing people to the strengths and nuances that make that kind of engine fun to play with, and lead to people looking for other similar systems, potentially bringing new players into a fairly underexposed section of TTRPGs. It irks me that the first response of many people was to try to villainize Candela as a "BitD Rip-off", because people who don't understand the lineage, who don't understand the freestyle hack-and-mod culture of these kinds of Playbook engines, who aren't aware that BitD is already standing on the shoulders of other Engines before it, are going to see the accusations of 'plagiarism' and begin seeing any vaguely similar systems as 'knock offs of BitD', completely ignoring the rich lineage and open-source nature of these systems.
I'm glad that they at least acknowledge Vaesen in there. All I could think about was how similar in tone, theme, story and look Candela is to that game. It's nice to get an official confirmation, since it's always better to admit to your inspirations than to hope nobody catches on.
I'm curious since you seem to have played BitD and watch CR, what are the differences? I imagine locations and things have different names, but other than that is there a reason you would play Candela over BitD or vice versa?
Not a CR person, but judging by what CO is supposed to be about, BitD is more heist oriented and your characters are criminally minded in some fashion, while CO seems to be more about solving mysteries. From what I gather CO is like BitD and CoC (or Vaesen... lol) had a baby
@@Razsteroid I own BitD, but haven't had a chance to play it yet, so I'm not supremely qualified to answer that. What I can say, however, is that the reason I'd argue you should play any game is because the theme, art and background inspire you. Mechanics are very secondary, especially since you'll end up stealing mechanics from your favourite games and combining them into new stuff. Warhammer and Warhammer 40k Roleplay use almost identical mechanics, for example, but those games feel worlds apart, in practice. I think the vast majority of people playing Candela will be doing so because of the Critical Role brand, and if people enjoy that, it's not a bad thing. Though of course there's always that tinge of the "popular kid" getting more credit for doing the same thing everyone else has been doing for a while.
@@jasonGamesMaster Other than the mechanics, I don't think CO is that similar to BitD at all. The Fantasy/Steampunk Victorian setting gives me Dishonoured vibes more than anything else. That being said, Vaesen is a 19th century fictional Europe where a secret society of gifted folk have to protect the world from fantasy monsters that people don't know exist... Not like that concept is that unique. That's the story of Hellboy, Men In Black, etc. I just think that it's because Vaesen is so new, and because the photography and 'look' of CO is so similar, it makes the tonal similarities more distinct. The CO characters even look very, very similar to the archetype drawings in the Vaesen core book. I'm just really glad they acknowledged Vaesen with a shout-out, because it is a phenomenal game, and I have a hard time imagining that the people involved in CO didn't at least draw some inspiration from it. Vaesen more-so than Call of Cthulhu because the look is more distinctly European than American, and in Vaesen (as in CO), you are the protagonist, actively going out and solving cases. You start with the initiative. In CoC, you are often on the back-foot, reacting to some unfolding terror. It's a pretty big distinction, in my opinion.
@@GreyHunter88 fair enough. I definitely prefer Vaesen over CoC for lots of reasons, the primary being folklore is far more interesting to me that the mythos. As for the similarities between CO and BitD, the term steampunk is essentially meaningless, but they both feel very much in that realm to me. I think it's all pretty subjective though
I'm a two to three years into playing TTRPGs regularly (and even trying my hand at game design) and I'm quite excited for this TTRPG-wide Renaissance in light if the OGL. I do hope what you said come true: that we'll see a new era of game designers borrowing mechanics from other designers and together breath new innovation in game design sensibilities.
"Deathbringer doesn't have a joke at the end of this video." Deathbringer *IS* the joke at the end of the video. 🤭 *picks up a handfull of dice* Yeah that's right Deathbringer, I said what I said - skin that cheese-slicer and get to work; roll for initiative...
Professor, in keeping with the theme of the RHCP, the part right before the "Give it away, give it away, give it away now" seems very appropriate: Realize, I don't want to be a miser Confide with sly, you'll be the wiser Young blood is the lovin' upriser How come everybody wanna keep it like the Kaiser? The reference to Sly and the Family Stone notwithstanding, he's stating that he doesn't mind sharing and wonders why people want total control of something.
My love of gaming began in the “Before Times,” when only war games from Avalon Hill and SPI could satisfy my need to roll dice. Then came a game called D&D, and the hobby of gaming was changed forever. I can attest that the Professor knows that of which he speaks. He has scored a crit on his “Knowledge: RPG History” roll. Professor DM, may all YOUR rolls continue to be 20s! :)
what an era to live in, the new gen DnD nerds discovering the wider world of smaller ttRPGs, indea design and the absolutelly massive amount of "borrowing" we all do when making all these wild and insane little indies come to life ! Hopefully we are in for a rennessance of ttRPGs and a new movement in the culture. Im genuenly supprised that this has caused a controversy at all but on the other hand im still happy that CR is doing other games at all since I really personally dont care for 5e.
Good on you Prof DM. I don't think I've ever commented on your videos before but I do appreciate your balanced and considered perspective. Without commenting directly on different opinions below, I do think that open sourcing this type of content is truly in the spirit of the game. Keep up the reasoned and informative content. And thank you.
Got the update and similar point of view from Dungeons & Discourse. Your way of connecting this to a looong tradition is much appreciated Professor! I think we're now heading into a real golden age for rpg's due to the opening up of the rpg culture.
As a caveat, let me start by saying you yourself likely understand this. The following is for younger viewers who may not. Legality isn't the same as Ethics & Morality. Not that I think there is a problem. But a level of moral development that equates to "The Law determines Morality." is incredibly juvenile. Literally (re: Kohlberg's theory of moral development) Copyright Law in general is arguably severely immoral anyway and should be ignored in the context of morality (but not legality, if you dont want to be harmed by unethical people and their goons).
Back in the day we mined all sorts of sources for our games. No two tables were playing D&D in the same way, or any other game for that matter, because it was understood that was how things were and were supposed to be. How you decided the rules worked was how they worked at your table. People swapped things in and out of their games all the time. My 1e AD&D books are full of colored line throughs of rules I wasn't using for that particular campaign, hand written notes for what I was using, articles from Dragon magazine, from White Dwarf, things I took from other RPG publishers or generic campaign settings that could be used across a wide variety of RPG systems. I didn't like 2e or the 1e Unearthed Arcana book very much but I certainly mined both for 1e and D&D. There were elements of D&D I adapted for use when we played Mech Warrior and Battletech. Things I took from Traveller, Car Wars, Boot Hill, Gamma World, Dawn Patrol, Squad Leader and its supplements, and a host of other games. The games we created were inspired by all those things and more. I cannot think of any game that is completely original, all stand on the shoulders of the games and ideas that came before them. That two people, or two dozen people out of the millions of gamers making games and modifying others should come up with something similar is not at all unlikely, it is highly probable. I don't enjoy Critical Roles show because for my tastes it is too little game play and too much of them acting with Mercer and each other, but I wish them best of success with their new game.
@@OnlyHereForCake i have seen thatvquestion asked nearly everyvyear since I started in 78, firstvitvwas dnd,which actually was 3 systems, one combat, then saving throws, then skills in percentile and simetimes homebreq roll under stat Then I found RQ and d100 totally differemt. Then traveller , then aftermath with a wonderfulltly crunchy stepped system, then Arcamum with a roll under d20 system, then.....then there was Petersen, the same guide tyat helped develop d100, create dice pool system, then.... I am always hopeful, some smart guy will see a new way to run the dice, but usually, I have seen rehash with adopting other mechanics tacked on
Thank you for posting this. This really needed to be said. You have to love how humanity loves to jump on the outrage bandwagon without any context or knowledge of the facts and details. Thank you! 🙏
Thanks for the idea and I do agree as I am currently in the process of writing my own RPG. It is very true like you stated that that process is heavily influenced by what we have played and been exposed to. My own RPG feels like an homage in my writing to those great influencers like yourself and others; there is no intent to steal from those things that I love.
This was a fantastic video! So educational, thorough, and interesting. Really interesting to hear about the early days of the TTRPGs- would love to hear more about the history of games from the 60s.
Correct again, Professor! Lots of board games use similar mechanics too. As an example, Eldritch Horror is similar, where players role to get 5 or 6, and items and abilities add dice, damage to character removes dice from the pool. The use of a board and decks of cards replaces the dm. Nothing about rolling d6 is special. "Nothing to see here, folks. It happens all the time."
People also seem to be missing the fact that the system it's based on, Illuminated Worlds, was designed by Stras Acimovic and Layla Adelman. Stras was one of the two lead designers on Evil Hat Productions' first Forged in the Dark games, Band of Blades and Scum & Villainy, alongside John LeBoeuf-Little. Evil Hat Productions also were the ones that put out Harper's Blades in the Dark. I don't get why people are weirded out that one of the first designers in the FitD-space made another game that has a lot of roots in the FitD ruleset?
What a fantastic video! Me and my group started following your channel since your very reluctant OGL video 😉, and your viewpoint on what TTRPG is, and the culture it should be cultivating is something that made me and my group fall in love with the community. We're all in our 20s (90s kids) so these sort of videos are so enriching and I think serves as a beacon to preserve the tabletop scene as one that doesn't need to be over-monetized and censored so to speak. Sharing and collaboration is the best way for everyone to profit.
Matt Mercer was born in 1982. Im pretty sure he doesnt remember gaming in the eighties. I suspect like most of us elder millenial gamers he learned the game with AD&D 2nd edition, perhaps from folks who had been a part of TTRPG culture in the eighties.
Tabletop gaming is not too dissimilar to open source software. We borrow ideas from each other all the time, and we're happy to let people do it! As the years pass, everyone ends up with better software. Share ideas, borrow concepts, experiment, playtest, iterate. We all benefit in the end.
You don't roll a bunch of d6 in PbtA games, you roll 2d6, add a stat, and try to get 7 or higher. Stras Acimovic, half of the designers for Illuminated Worlds, helped John Harper work on Blades from the beginning, and his games were stretch goals for the original Blades in the Dark Kickstarter campaign. I don't think Stras gets royalties for Blades or anything, but he has worked with this system since the beginning.
I wasn't aware of this "scandal" but I'm happy this video showed up on my recommendations, very clarified and interesting, awesome content! Thank you 😊
Thank you for laying out the “scandal” so succinctly. I had seen a couple of click-bait headlines from people I generally don’t watch/read. When attempting to figure out what was going on with this “CR scandal”, I ended up just watching several people just yak and yak and yak and never get to the point! This is the first time that I actually understand what this drama is. In four minutes I now understand what I couldn’t in a cumulative 40 minutes and in eight minutes I know where I stand.
I've been playing ttrpgs since 1981. I've already told a few much younger gamers that Candela isn't "stealing" anything that wasn't already "stolen" many, many times before. They're just too young to have any perspective, about many subjects outside of ttrpgs. Film, music, art, etc.
Thanks for the history lesson. As for the scandal, I think there is a bit of nuance given the size of Critical Role. In the gaming world (and not just there), we have seen large companies take things from the "little guy", and use their brand recognition to capitalize on the idea. Only to start threatening with lawsuits/pinkertons if we but share a simple picture or screenshot of their product. Now, I'm not saying CR is doing this. Honestly I don't even know how much they copied from other games, nor do I really care all that much because games copy things from each other all the time. But the illusion that CR is *just* "a bunch of nerdy ass voice actors playing D&D" has long dropped. They make money, and lots of it. Which means as creators, they are starting to be judged the same way as other companies. And considering we just went through a phase of a company wanting to make money off of community creations, I think a lot of people might be a bit scared that CR is already showing some of those tendencies, when they were supposed to be the "weapon to defeat the evil".
The honest truth is it's a bit of that, and it's a bit of the fact that Critical Role has targeted an audience mostly consisting of younger people, and younger people tend to be, well, stupid, by virtue of a lack of world experience. That and they openly embrace the more... "woke" elements of their audience. And those people are just morons. When CR did a one-shot sponsored by Wendy's using Wendy's TTRPG system (yes, this is a thing, lol), their fans went crazy and called for a *boycott of CR* because they "sided with a capitalist business who treats their employees poorly". I _wish_ I was making this up. What did CR do? They immediately apologized and took the video down. Every time CR does something that their room-temperature-IQ fanbase disapproves of, they cave to them. They brought this on themselves in a way.
One of my favorite TTRPGs is Delta Green, which is based on the Call of Cthulhu system. My favorite actual-play show uses DG and borrows some Pulp Cthulhu rules and some extra CoC rules. The thematic tones in Candela Obscura are really similar to DG, which is great! Love when we can all come together as a community of dice rollers to make cool new things and celebrate the things we love and took inspiration from. It's not like we can accuse the x-files of 'stealing' from DG; we're just excited for a show with a really specific tone & theme that scratches that same itch! Is anyone ever mad that an ice cream parlor has 100 flavors and 10 of them are chocolate based? No! They're each a little different and the small nuances make up its identity. stupid analogies aside, what I'm trying to say is, more people should play Delta Green LOL.
Thanks. I had a lot of fun and math with GURPS. The system lives in a weird healm amidst the other: simple ideas - complex excecution. My friends says that GURPS rules are more real then reality itself. The greatest thing for me was the freedom of scenario.
Long time gamer (D&D 1st edition as a 15YO in the 70's) and thought the same thing. Jackson seemed to have the same issue of separating genre from mechanics being a potentially business savvy way to create copyrightable content isolated from mechanics; using percentile dice to represent the attempt was pretty cool and CofC grabbed that. I do like the way Candella Obscura's system gives you the option of deploying extra "oomph" on critical rolls (heh) ... anything that changes the whole min/max math major hijinks back towards role playing is a plus in my book. Mechanics should be like stage craft- the focus should be on the actors, not the set, lighting, or practical effects. Thanks for the very thoughtful and historically grounded vid!
I think it was a mistake they didn't make sure that they acknowledged Blades in their base instructions, but from everything I have heard, yes Blades knew they were being copied and they corrected that. I can understand the controversy before this came up, but I am glad they clarified. The flip side of it is, as much as I want to play Candela Obscura, I want to play Blades now.
That's what I thought. It was like, "this is a dumb non-scandal scandal but it will kick off the week with a lot of views." Review of Mazes TTRPG coming later this week. Watch that.
Theres a ton of fantasy TTRPGs that have similar mechanics and settings, and you dont hear many people knock them for being derivative (then again not a lot of people know about all the indie and smaller games out there).
I wont lie, I was expecting a whole lotta "Matt Mercer/Crit Role bad mmkay!?" But it was actually a really refreshing mini history lesson! And as someone who is somewhat new to D&D and TTRPGs, that's a nice little nugget of knowledge~ Honestly, people will find a reason to complain about anything, teach a man to fish and all that. .-.
As a 25 year old who was born around 1998 or thereabouts who became aware of 5e around when critrole was becoming popular, I feel called out! I found out about d&d when I was a bit younger actually through some 4e and 3.5e videos online and wanted to try it, but didn't get the chance until college. But without the emotional attachment to critrole I seem to have been more open to trying other systems than some of my friends.
It doesn't bother me. To me Critical Role's system is irrelevent and I'm pretty sure most people watch CR for its cast and DM, not its system. If the creator of BitD is ok with it, then even better. Im not necessarily a fan of CR, but it seems people like to tear down those at the top at some point or another. At the end of the day CR is about entertaining people and if it does that, then mission accomplished.
Exactly. It's pretty much impossible to come with entirely unique mechanics forty+ years into game design. Isn't Blades basically Powered by the Apocalypse which was an open-designed system intended to be borrowed and used in various games.
I think it's too bad they weren't more clear about the source from the get go. Scum & Villainy is one of my favorite RPGs and knowing that Candela Obscura was co-designed by Stras Acimovic would only have increased my excitement for it. I get that people wanted "something new" but FitD is great. It's a little crunchier than PbtA but still no where near as rules heavy as D&D.
Funny you should mention that. I taped this when I am at my most mellow--Sunday morning, after church. Very little script, just speaking form the heart. Someone else said, "I liked the video, but you seem a little tired. Are you okay?"
Weird how all of this probably could have been prevented by slapping a "Forged in the Dark" sticker on their announcement. You know, like every other game inspired by Blades seems to have no problem doing.
I gotta disagree with "it's not even close to a forged in the dark game." I think it's pretty darn close, but just different enough to warrant not being called forged in the dark.
I still want to see Deathbringer spend some quality time with Gordon Gekko. Which makes me think a party of fantasy adventurers might have a decent time assaulting the Ventrue tower from VtM Bloodlines. Seems as legit as Expedition to the Barrier Peaks
I think they might have been rushing slightly to get the quick start rules out and did not have a chance to put out the 'we took inspiration/we're using the creative commons for this system' paragraph. Like I feel they had all intentions to put it in the main core rules for the system, but somewhere for the quick start it got dropped. I do not feel as though Matt Mercer, who by far one of the nicest, kindest human beings, would NOT go out of his way to steal and claim something as his own. They quickly fixed their mistake, the original creator is good with it. Nuff said. And you're right - we need more creative collabs between creators. New ideas are fun. Sometimes someone else's idea could be just the thing that you need in your world/system. I think with creative commons and the like out in the world, it helps to foster this collaboration spirit. Glad that we were able to get Wizards to open up to CC. Hopefully independent creators can fix 5e/5.X, as they've been doing, or someone will create a better system for the base skeleton we're getting. Anyways, great thoughts and video.
I think the demo doc is just a demo doc, meaning putting in information about game systems that influenced its development would be extra information. I imagine when the game's full rulebook drops, like other forged in the dark rulebooks, it'll list its influences.
I think a more interesting question would be what happens when someone else makes a game that is really similar to Candela Obscura, and Critical Role's response to it?
the issue is how is it similar? If it's the game system, nothing happens. But if you use the content of the books you are getting into trouble if you use it in a way that they did not approve (the story, names of cities, the characters, etc) and as the video says you have to change the name of the stats and things like that.
Illuminated Worlds - what they've called their ruleset - will be coming out with the full Candela Obscura book, as I understand. And it's supposed to be adaptable and setting-agnostic. So... I imagine they'll want credit.
To me, as a person who has run BitD, the core of the game is the flashback system and the clocks. These arent present in CO. The entire 3 categories with abilities always felt like a stripped down World of Darkness. This all feels like a game of outrage telephone. Some people played Blades and saw the rolling system and said. "Oh, kind of like Blades in the Dark." From there casual fans, who probably would be happy if CR stayed in a familiar system, started screaming plagiarism. Honestly, i like what Candela showed early and ill also be glad if it encourages folk to try Blades.
Darrington Press is positioned, by sheer investment but also its unique ability to market their products through critical role, to take mechanics developed by smaller creators and make much more lucrative products from them. That by itself is not a problem, and it could be argued that the exposure in critical role will trickle down to their inspiring games, but as you only skimmed in the beginning of the video, they didn't include any form of acknolegment to Blades in the Dark. They've since corrected that mistake - after fan backlash. I think it's great that players can engage critically with the games they consume and demand that clear trail of acknolegdement, which helps new gamers find the games that could otherwise be obscured by larger, newer games.
Well stated counterpoint. And I would add there are degrees of similarity. Candela is very, very similar to Blades. Far more so than Blades is similar to Apocalypse World.
Thanks Professor. Not only did I get a clear view of this (I hadn't heard about it until now) but it gave me a little clarity on and older mental struggle of the whole Arneson and Gygax mess. Anyway really good video and thanks for being the adult in the room.
I don't think the people upset about the Critical Roll thing are upset about heavy borrowing or influence. At least not the mature ones. The scene that Forged in the Dark and Powered by the Apocalypse are part of is built on borrowing. This isn't something that just happened back in the 70s, it's alive in the Indy community today (and also OSR community for that matter). I think what troubles people is that Critical Roll has a big platform and an opportunity to use that platform to lift others up and they often seem to at best forget to do so. This is of a piece with when they ran a game heavily influenced by Mothership a few years back and gave no acknowledgement until days later on Twitter, or putting fan art before their shows without credits. In this case they course corrected and did put the acknowledgements in, but I think most of the anger was before that was done. Also, at least based on the quickstart, CO looks like a near carbon copy of Forged in the Dark (not surprising since one of their designers is a well regarded FitD creator). As Justin Alexander points out, this might be a false impression since quickstarts aren't a complete ruleset, but if it really is so close I personally think, as part of lifting others up, they could have just called it a Forged in the Dark game instead of creating their own system brand for it. None of what was done is immoral I think, but it isn't classy and I think it's reasonable to be annoyed.
Loved your discussion. I am currently reading1979 Advanced Dungeon and Dragons Dungeon Masters Guide. It's interesting to go back and read that and see what has been taken from this iconic book and used in today's TTRPGs.
In my humble opinion, 1st ed DMG is one of the best books written, as it had everything, I started DMing with just the PHB and the DMG all those years ago, and though DnD is no longer my first choi e, it is my first love
Prof DM making sure we get the hint “my non-controversy video already covered this way better but you smooth brained noodles didn’t watch that so now I’ve got to hop on the drama bandwagon” Time to watch that video so I can get some wrinkles in my brain :D
I don't mind designers taking ideas from other games. As long as they're honest about it. What grinds my gears is when designers bill their system as new and innovative when it's just a copy of something else and never disclose that. That just seems misleading to me.
I think the issue is moreso the popularity of Critical Role. They don't really "tip their hats" to other designers, and they aren't active participants in TRPG design communities. They're juggernauts. If I write Marvel fanfiction or something that's fine because I'm not popular, if Disney steals my story for the new movie that's kinda shitty because they're a billion dollar company and I'm just a small fish writing stories for fun- even if it is legal because they own the characters. I get your point that "This is how things used to be," but times have changed, it's not just small fish in the pond anymore- and the big, billion dollar players need to be held accountable when they slip up.
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 As I do yours! All that being said, excellent video, as per usual. Your insight and knowledge on the early days of wargaming and roleplaying is always valuable in the community.
On the scale of things, I’m very new to the TTRPG community. The griping and sniping and accusations seem to be a loud but minor portion of the community. I love that each table is a little different, even when playing the same system. Thanks for the reasonable and gentle history lesson, PDM
Lol. Funny you should say that. I taped this on a Sunday afternoon with the barest of scripts. I decided to just talk to the camera and not overthink it. But I guess it comes across as low-energy.
It's almost like genre conventions and individual game mechanics are shared and we just all build off of one another because tabletop devs and GMs just wanna see all of us enjoying all our ideas as a whole.
right? I feel like the same people shrieking about Candela being similar to BitD are the same people who would immediately praise literally any game that was based on 5E
Hadn't heard anything about this and glad I haven't seen any news stories about it either, what a silly thing to be outraged by. Oh, you forgot to mention GURPS as one of those early systems from the 80's...
For me personally, Candella didn’t sit right for how close it was to Blades, but I had heard Harper gave it a thumbs up, so who am I to complain. It still feels underwhelming for what was promised.
wotc: tries to copywrite mechanics
fans: you can't do that!
critical role: uses uncopywritable mechanics
fans: you can't do that!
I dont think that is the issue, think some people felt not enough nods were given to the inspuring system, as for me, I see how tge dice pool and minimal mechabics can be traced to games from the 80s and 90s, nithibg really new here
They can do what they want. It's uninspired and cheap, that's all. It says a lot about the creators.
Yeah, I'm not surprised most players had no idea of the history of RPG mechanics, but given we just went through all of this with the OGL scandal I would have thought more people would realize that lawsuits to prevent people from using your game mechanics are not only legally dubious, but pure poison from a public relations perspective. Most independent creators would be thrilled if Critical Role used their material as long as some acknowledgement was made.
I saw its mechanics and was like "Oh, it's a Forged in the Dark system" I didn't even realize that people were going to be outraged about this.
TTRPGs are generally about borrowing mechanics and rules and changing them to fit your vision. As long as acknowledgment is given, there should be no issues.
Yeah calling this a "scandal" is very, very overdone. The only people really pissed about this is a small group.
Are people outraged? I haven’t seen a scandal.
No scandal then? I'm sure someone somewhere is mad, but yeah, I hadn't heard anything negative about it until Prof. 🤔
My man just hitting the algorithm 😂
There were two major criticisms against Candella, the first one was "The system is too narrative, I wanted a crunchy tactical system" and the other one was the Blades in the Dark "ripoff" that PDM is talking about in the video. I suspect those two are one in the same with the latter being said as a legit sounding reason as opposed to just complaining about why they didn't rip off D&D like they wanted.
Finally an adult in the room who understands the beginning of the genre.
Not just an adult, but a professor!
ALWAYS be wary of the one stating that they are that adult.
Also this "scandal" can be something that Crit themselves drummed up for PR reasons... Like keeping the audience from leaving because of, not merely the system change, changed game content.
@@walterroche8192 Yeah, being an adult, a gentleman or a master of an art can't be self stated.
I mean, he left out all the TSR, White Dwarf, and game ip law suits that plagued the industry from the beginning of the hobby. He brought up Gigax and Arnison collaborating, but did not bring up the fact they sued each other over d&d and Arnison got royalties for D&D and WotC had to buy it back from him to call 3e "D&D" without the Advanced part.
Largely smaller publishers do not sue because they do not have the money to win or the people ripping them off do not have the money to make it worth their time. Every legal challenge is an arguement decided by a judge of what legally qualifies, so that is a big risk if they say something that moves that goal post; ie, TSR sued Gary Gigax for trying to put out Dangerous Demensions because if you say gigax and DD on a cover the average consumer would think it is a D&D book, and Gigax lost that one. No small publisher wants to take the risk and the larger guys are usually not threatened by you typing up rules that violate their ip if you sell less than 100 copies because they will never get their money back.
@@Iwouldlikesomeshisha I can't speak to being a master artiste or adult, but I taught my sons that a gentleman is a man who cares as much about the comfort of those around him as he does about his own. It's better to know that you are striving to be a gentleman than have others perceive you as one, if you take my meaning.
Game mechanics cannot be subject to copyright.
There is no drama here.
Most “drama” is non-drama. This video is so refreshing.
There is some. If they stole outright they are supposed to give credit.
@@danielinthewolvesdenFrom what it seems, they didn't.
@@SnaxMang Yeah, they didn't steal outright, and they did give credit. lol
Not really scandal just lame. They were promoting their new TTRPG then delivered Ms. Pacman.
I was super excited when I saw Stras was designing Candela Obscura. I'd just watched an actual play of him running another game he designed: Scum and Villainy, which is based on the Blades in the Dark / Forged in the Dark rules, but tweaked for space opera.
I had assumed that the Critical Role people - not professional game designers - were just going to put out a D&D clone so they'd be free of Wizards, but this was much better news: a game designed by a professional with a proven track record, specifically tuned to Critical Role's gaming needs.
And now people are complaining? I think the community has just really enjoyed Wizards' gaffes and antics and is thirsty for more controversy. Look elsewhere guys. This is a crit success.
I'm so happy Illuminated Worlds isn't a D&D clone. I'm hoping Candela Obscura gets people exploring other systems.
Ogre,
Let's have history PROVE that before we start throwing laurels on it. 😏 Don't need fanboi opinion cloudy the view.
@@xxthevampirate Baby steps. Rome wasn't built in a day, and D&D wasn't perfected in a single edition. I'm certain Candela Obscura will evolve as more people play and run the system.
@@dwil0311 Exactly. Idk why anyone beyond the age of 12 thinks similarities in design/look/story means one is a 1:1 copycat of the other. And I think it bothers me mostly because I used to be like that when I was a kid, but I grew out of that even if it was several years later than it should've taken.
I'm actually wondering how many of the people who say that really are just ignorant youngsters utilizing their easy access to social media to spout some half-baked, pseudo-critical mush.
Correction, they are professional game designers, they’ve made loads of games before including previous systems so I’m not surprised that they’re creating new systems.
IIRC, "Blades In The Dark" book includes permission for you to make whatever you want with it, inside the book itself. Basically an open license. That's why there have been some other directly derived BitD games. Using bits from other tabletop games is the norm, anyway. As you said, game mechanics can't be copyrighted, so it's not a big deal unless it's a word-for-word copy of the setting and all. Hell, it's always good to see something other than D&D clones, and 5e specifically, getting wider attention.
The "Forged in the Dark" open license in Blades in the Dark does require attribution, though.
That said, I think it's abundantly clear Candela is sufficiently distinct from BitD and if John Harper is fine with, then nobody should be going around trying to start beef on his behalf.
1. Freedom to use is not freedom to omit credit;
2. "game mechanics can't be Copyrighted" is far from an assured thing. It's more like: there's reasonable ground to assume game mechanics can't be copyrighted, but a well presented case could very well change it.
It was a quickstart document. A free PDF showing how the game is played. Game designers put those out all the time without attribution. The finished product is where credit needs to be given.
@@dwil0311 that's kind of the whole point of why a well presented case can change the usual understanding of the legal interpretation. Sometimes rules and content expression are to closely intertwined - and even in the cases when a good amount of distinction is achievable the line is still fuzzy.
It's worth noting that this is Stras Acimovic's third FitD game so far, and it looks like there's definitely some neat tweaks I haven't seen before (Drives for example) in FitD games.
When you're sure that you've played a game by this system before but you haven't: the Candella Effect.
Well done, sir! :D
That's clever.
@@DeirdreCeridwen Thanks. I'm just glad I got it in before anyone else.
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 You have my permission to use it 😁 Seems fair after the things you do that have made it to my gaming table.
Oh no, lol. A small number of tribal gamers just found another label to use as an avatar for their under informed hot takes. I'm joking, nicey said 😛.
So many people are going to discover Blades in the Dark (and other indie RPGs) specifically because of Candela Obscura. This is an amazing time for the entire hobby, and when it comes to big influential voices, we could hardly hope for better than the members of Critical Role.
To rat on myself a bit:
As one of the 25ish year-olds who actually put a Blades comment on the Candela episode 1, I'm so thankful for this video. Getting the background on the TTRPG scene and on the creation of Candela is the complete picture I needed.
Thanks for bringing us up to speed!
Now go and edit that comment :)
I deleted it instead 🙃
@@topper_1774 🍻
It shows character to admit and correct when you are wrong. You can't always be right, but with right mindset you can get it right. Bravo!
A refreshingly mature and honorable response. Respect.
I'd like to see the Venn Diagram on people upset about Critcal Role and Candela Obsucura and people upset about WoTC and the OGL.
You, sir, win the internet today!
In my case, the circles do not touch 😂
I am just in the OGL circle
Exactly. I can't understand how people can be upset at WOTC for trying to shut off open-source gaming, and then get upset that CO takes advantage of open-source gaming. I guess for some people, being upset is the whole point.
That has really been grinding my gears since I first heard of the chowderheads accusing CR of 'stealing'.
Were you not paying attention? Just this spring? Ten thousand videos, posts, and comments saying that one could not copyright game mechanics?
And I don't expect a full "Thanks and Acknowledgements" page on a stripped down, free-to-download quickstart ruleset.
When my kids were little we had our own system. A “roll” to hit would be something like me asking them what’s 3+7, if they got it right it was a hit, or depending on how long it took to answer, how successful they were. Maybe I should trade mark that.
Oh thats nice!
mathblaster dnd is a great idea!
I could see that mechanic being popular with a certain type of gamer
I like it. But, as stated, you can't copyright game mechanics. And I'm quite certain that "basic math" is public domain anyway. BUT you definitely SHOULD publish it! We need more introductory, kid-friendly games!
@@ryanhale6339 fairly certain that was sarcasm
One'a my biggest regrets when publishing my first RPG was that I didn't plagiarize the good things _enough_. I tried to originate more -- to the peril of some game aspects.
Petersen said steal everything, lol
This is a trap I fall into a lot. You want to do something blindingly original and throw out all the familiar ideas, and then you quickly realize that some ideas keep being used because they work.
"Professionals borrow. Genius steals."
And a Google search reveals I'm getting the quote wrong and nobody's really sure who said it.
Which RPG is that?
The trick is to steal from multiple sources at once
"When money and morals intersect, sometimes you get interesting cognitive dissonance."
THAT is a great line. :)
I was confused why this was a source of controversy since I knew they adapted from blades and was ok. I forgot that not everyone is not over 50.
It's great to be this age.
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 wait I’m early 40s and know that 😂 2E era however
PDM is over 50? Cool. Explains much.
Me too. Less cool, trust me.
I'm 36 and knew that there was nothing to see here, and everything was cool even played some 2nd edition dnd in my day but really cut my teeth on 3rd. Sadly 0-100 reactions seem to be the new norm these days though...
I watched about an hour of Candela Obscura and didn't clutch my pearls at the similarities to Blades. As Stras Acimovic is on the design team for the base game should we really be surprised that Evil Hat ideas are in the game?
Reminds me of what Elvis Costello said when folks were accusing Olivia Rodrigo of ripping off Pump It Up. "This is fine by me. It's how rock & roll works. You take the broken pieces of another thrill and make a brand new toy." Before saying he lifted the riff from Bob Dylan, who lifted it from Chuck Berry.
One of those things that functions better with "works cited" rather than copyright.
Old Crow Medicine Show have made a career out of a half-finished Bob Dylan song (not dissing Old Crow--love them).
As a massive fan of Blades in the Dark, I was only partially surprised listening to the "How To Play: Candela Obscura (Critical Role's New RPG)" video by Spenser Stark that quite so much of the core system was so similar. Tabletop roleplay games have always canibalised each other so that wasn't the issue to me. Nor do I think Candela Obscure actually *is* a Forged in the Dark system, as close as it is.
Personally I was a little disapointed that they didn't give a shout out to Blades/Forged in the Dark, Vaesen and other systems in their video as inspirations for the system during the video. Given how much of a platform they have. A single sentance of "a new game inspired by great games such as..."
Esp. since as well regarded as it has been since it was released BiTD doesn't have anywhere near popularity of D&D.
But overall it's a bit of a storm in a teacup, esp. given that Spencer Starke and CR have gone out of their way to add the hap-tipping reference.
They should have wrote the touchstones in the beginning of the quickstart instead in the end (like most indie TTRPGs due). Otherwise it's easly missed.
Would you care to elaborate why it is not a Forged in the Dark game? It seems to be really really close in so many aspects that I can't see why not.
Anyone else have a moment of anticipation that Deathbringer was going to cover the Red Hot Chili Peppers' Give It Away?
He's still singing Crash Test Dummies.
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 MMMMmmmmmm
I absolutely loved your phrase : "When money and morals intersect sometimes you get interesting cognitive dissonance"
I'm going to steal it.
i would also like to point out that the roll a bunch of D6 and get a six is pretty similar to the roll a bunch of d10 and get an 8 or higher from the world of darkness stuff. In the end there's only a limited ammount of stuff you can do with dice.
It's also, you know, the core mechanic of risk.
Or how about higher numbers, by re rolling 6s... ala Shadowrun
Only a limited amount of stuff you can do with dice before you start getting really convoluted to the point that it's incredibly unfun. There's a reason that most games with dice use them in mostly similar ways. Because the "fun" is supposed to be the most important part.
1996 the d6 system was made its the exact same roll a d 6 for 5-6
I am currently writing up my 6th ttrpg from my own brain. However, the influences from other games are for sure a part of them all. Good mechanics are good mechanics.
I think CR will see this blow over.
As a grognard, well put started with 1st ed with just Players book and DMG, and watching the evolution, this was a welcome quick synopsis
Thanks, my grognard brother.
Lmao. I told a good friend of mine during their first game, oh hey, this system is a lot like Blades in the Dark. Later I noticed a lot of similarities with Vaesen. I didn't really think much of it because I'm used to the extremely open approach to design of the OSR. The inspiration is absolutely obvious, but IMO, calling it a "rip off" is just silly.
Pretty much!
I also feel some people didn't experience the Era where we had to basically hide that we played TTRPGs. It's only relatively recently that playing RPGs have been en vogue
It is a little strange that TTRPGs are openly played and that it doesn't get you stuffed in a locker anymore. I welcome that RPGs have gone a bit mainstream.
@@broceollomon never was stuffed in a locker and Ialways had lady players,
This is a very understated, but important part of the hobby history. Players of early TTRPGs, or even non-family board games were often met with a vituperative, condemning spirit. You often felt like you won the lottery when you were fortunate enough to meet even *one* person who played or was interested, let alone a group willing to meet in a basement or at the library. I'm thankful for this new epoch where the inner geek of so many can be expressed. It brings so much more exposure and participation and I think that's been great for the games and for the social experiences
@onejdc My experience playing D&D in the 90s and 2000s was met with heavy bullying and a talking to from my middle school principal about the dangers of black magic, which was scary, but in hindsight hilarious. Glad it's way more accepted now.
@@broceollomon Yep! I even had multiple copies of a book "Turmoil in the Toybox" given to me about the dangers of D&D....now some school districts are implementing official afterschool D&D clubs....Times have changed so much and I'm so thankful. Also very sad to hear about your experience, I wish it were more atypical.
At this stage in the game if you have thought of it so have many others. When you base a game around a popular setting. Victorian steampunk on this case and use an already known game mechanic. Of course you will get overlap. The respectful thing to do os do what CR did. Thank and recognize those that have inspired you. No harm no foul I say.
It's not even really steampunk, it's more so industrial revolution/turn of the century since they use electricity instead of steam. I'm definitely being a bit pedantic but as a fan of dieselpunk I hate when everything gets called steampunk.
Most indie games die of obscurity rather than suffer from being stolen. Indie game designers are usually more open to people using their content because it draws attention to their stuff. I think Knave or Maze Rats came with a word version of the whole text of the game so you could cut & paste the whole base rule set into your game to add to it and I want to say they explicitly give you permissions to do it.
That having been said; bigger game companies sueing smaller ones for this sort of thing has happened since the start of gaming and still continues. There are some people that are happy with a tip of the hat, but if Blades in the Dark were owned by a Paizo sized company, they might sue; especially because they are bypassing the "Forged in the Dark" license to make their own "Illuminated Worlds" system which the license gives the biggest benefit to the primary creator. The professor left out how TSR sued a lot of people (Dave Arnison, Gary Gigax, Nintendo, and dozens of small up start gaming companies) in the "good old days where everyone got along."
I do not think John Harper has a problem with this because of statements he made, but they are coming at Blades in the Dark at the end of the product's life. The same reason WotC did not sue Swords & Wizardry for ripping off BX d&d is because the money is in the new game, not the old one, generally speaking. Unlike novels, games usually do not see a rise to popularity once they are past their prime.
Lastly, a lot of the claims about how much protection your ip has is speculative and a lot of these issues have not really been tested in court because no one wants to spend the money and find out. WotC thought they could enforce the other versions of the ogl and they have very, very good lawyers. The reason the community freaked out is because a lot of this has not been tested in court. Ie, there was a serious talk about if WotC could sue someone for a "saving throw" or a "strength check" being used because it is a specific name of a mechanic; the d20+x mechanic cannot be copywriten but it becomes less clear if you are using specific terms and such. There might be a case, depending on the final version of the game. To quote the Rules Lawyer, a real, practicing lawyer, "anyone who tells you a legal challenge has a certain outcome is wrong."
Yeah, there's credits to Blades in the Dark in the end of the starter PDF. I'm totally fine with taking parts of a system that just fits extremely well and build something else from it, as long as it's credited.
You can only invent the wheel once and if it fits it fits.
The "issue" is that it wasnt there at first.
@@oz_jones Its a pretty thin issue. And when third parties become offended at something the supposedly wronged person isn't unhappy about...
@@oz_jones Yeah. I really don't think though there was any malicious thoughts behind it.
It was missing, I'm glad they corrected that.
That said, I would have loved them to have opened with a statement that it was heavily inspired by this and that game because, well, the one thing it is not, is an all new, original system. It's founded on something else.
@@oz_jones Moving the goalpost. I guarantee that no matter what is said there will instead be a new "real issue" to complain about.
This is actually really valuable context for me. I'm 25 and started playing TTRPGs in 2014. I started watching Wil Wheaton's Titansgrave show and then moved on to DND when Geek and Sundry started airing Critical Role. All the people I played with were also brand new to the game, and we didn't have anyone to hand down this history to us. Thanks for making this video
You're welcome. The works of Jon Peterson are the authoritative works on the history of RPGs, if you are interested. Thanks for watching.
The 80s was an explosion of innovation, fresh new ideas and loads of fertile genres to build entirely new systems around. Here we are 40 years later and now we get excited about tweaks of existing systems (not to put down or diminish the work of our current generation of creators) coming out. That said, we also live in an era where we've never had more choice and freedom in our hobby to find a system that sings to us in exactly the way we're looking for.
And yet, people seem to cling to the same old stuff, I ha e had playerd walk away, when I broughtvtrying new systems, of course I do hook in new players using dnd
As a GM and Playrr from those misty days, it is hard to get excited about some of these "new" systems as we have seen it before, Dice pools ,oh you mean Petersens Ghostbusters and WEG d6, minimal stats, yep been there,
Wow a Chill shoutout. I really thought everyone had forgotten that system. I ran quite a few really fun sessions of that game back in the day. In addition to sharing your thoughts on the scandal, thanks for sending me down memory lane PDM.
TTRPGs are one of the few art forms where there is no skill barrier between yourself and a great product that can be appreciated deeply by others. When it comes to drawing pictures, making music, or creating movies everyone gets intimidated, but TTRPGs have a much lower base to clear, even with the full force of the Matt Mercer Effect in play. I think that low bar allowing basically anyone to be a creator will always keep the hobby on some level a collective, democratic experience. While it may look like D&D is a monopoly, the OGL crisis proves the hobby is unmonopolable
Thought provoking.
I think part of the issue is that there was some initial claims from Darrington Press that this system would be original. When it was finally showcased without a word or mention of its clear sources of inspiration - e.g., Blades in the Dark, Vaesen, etc. - I think that rubbed people the wrong way. I mean, yeah, John Harper was inspired by Apocalypse World, but he never shied away from that influence. Vincent Baker is twice in the opening thanks, one for his work on BOTH Blades in the Dark AND Dogs in the Vineyard, but also as one his "fellow 'thiefy game' designers."
I'm also reminded of fantasy authors. There were authors like Moorcock and Le Guin who - for all their own originality - would be incredibly vocal about their influences from fellow authors and prior works. Even writers like GRRM is pretty vocal about his influences. But then there were authors like J.K. Rowling and Andrzej Sapkowski who often denied, ignored, or disregarded their fantasy forebearers while other people in the press who were ignorant of the fantasy genre often praised their originality. (See Ursula K LeGuin's smack down of JK Rowling.)
You are welcome to dismiss this all as jealousy of success, but I do think that there is some resentment, not of Critical Role's success, but from presenting something derivative as being original without acknowledging the conversation of game design in the TTRPG scene or in the fantasy writing scene.
The "words of the Red Hot Chili Peppers" are particularly ironic because Anthony Keidis was convinced Faith No More's Mike Patton was ripping him off in the music video for Epic and held that grudge on for decades, costing FNM and Patton's other band Mr. Bungle some big gigs as a result.
Lol. My player Barbara LOVES FNM and will probably say the same thing when she sees this video.
When I saw FNM play in the 2000's they had Neil Hamburger on as a warm up and he spent a large part of his set ripping on RHCP. It was very funny.
It's also funny that he relates it to musicians not being able to copyright chords and progressions, when there have been 2 VERY high profile lawsuits recently about exactly that. Each one setting a different precedent.
I’ve written a few very small games myself and a lot of people have this weird thing about what copyright actually is and how the community works. First off making a brand new system that no one has ever seen before, is not gonna happen at this point. All dice systems and TTRPG systems in general can be improved, modified and changed slightly to fit a theme or idea a little better. Most systems have already been tried and either were adopted or failed to really work. New ideas will always come out but the core dice systems we used are meant to be adapted and modified. You can’t copyright a system because we don’t have that many to begin with. I’m actually super excited to play the game as I like what it’s doing for the system and presentation wise I was impressed. It looks fun. And that’s what I think people are missing, it’s going to be a fun game to play with friends.
People seem to want to get angry about something. But I think all games benefit from and are built on the backs of others. That can only lead to better and more interesting games. I’m really excited to see where RPG’s go and what new developments we see in them in the coming years.
People? Or WoTC paid provocateurs or even pinkertons?
So many bots and marketers online, I wouldn't be surprised if this was all paid outrage to hurt them for abandoning D&D.
As an old fan of Apocalypse World (and Powered by the Apocalypse adjacent systems, e.g. Masks, Monster of the Week) I was *happy* when I saw all the similarities to what I was already familiar with and a fan of appear in Candela Obscura. Now, maybe this is me living under some kind of TTRPG rock, but the first time I even heard of Blades in the Dark was... in the comment section of the Obscura intro video, with people complaining it was some kind of BitD rip-off, and I was sitting there, quite confused, going, "No it's just Powered by the Apocalypse with extra dice. What's the big deal?"
So I did a little digging and found out, hey, BitD spun off of PbtA concepts, so I was right in noticing the lineage. SO that just left me even more confused over why people were so hostile to the idea of a spin-off of BitD, since these kinds of playbook-centric systems are pretty much designed to be hacked up and modified into new things anyways. There are hundreds of variant systems under just the PbtA and BitD umbrellas alone.
I saw, and still see, the launch of Candela Obscura as a great thing for non-D20 systems. DnD, PF, and their D20 competitors have taken so much of the TTRPG spotlight, that a major group like CritRole showcasing a D6 Playbook engine will inevitably have the knock-on effect of exposing people to the strengths and nuances that make that kind of engine fun to play with, and lead to people looking for other similar systems, potentially bringing new players into a fairly underexposed section of TTRPGs.
It irks me that the first response of many people was to try to villainize Candela as a "BitD Rip-off", because people who don't understand the lineage, who don't understand the freestyle hack-and-mod culture of these kinds of Playbook engines, who aren't aware that BitD is already standing on the shoulders of other Engines before it, are going to see the accusations of 'plagiarism' and begin seeing any vaguely similar systems as 'knock offs of BitD', completely ignoring the rich lineage and open-source nature of these systems.
I'm glad that they at least acknowledge Vaesen in there. All I could think about was how similar in tone, theme, story and look Candela is to that game. It's nice to get an official confirmation, since it's always better to admit to your inspirations than to hope nobody catches on.
I'm curious since you seem to have played BitD and watch CR, what are the differences? I imagine locations and things have different names, but other than that is there a reason you would play Candela over BitD or vice versa?
Not a CR person, but judging by what CO is supposed to be about, BitD is more heist oriented and your characters are criminally minded in some fashion, while CO seems to be more about solving mysteries. From what I gather CO is like BitD and CoC (or Vaesen... lol) had a baby
@@Razsteroid I own BitD, but haven't had a chance to play it yet, so I'm not supremely qualified to answer that.
What I can say, however, is that the reason I'd argue you should play any game is because the theme, art and background inspire you. Mechanics are very secondary, especially since you'll end up stealing mechanics from your favourite games and combining them into new stuff.
Warhammer and Warhammer 40k Roleplay use almost identical mechanics, for example, but those games feel worlds apart, in practice.
I think the vast majority of people playing Candela will be doing so because of the Critical Role brand, and if people enjoy that, it's not a bad thing. Though of course there's always that tinge of the "popular kid" getting more credit for doing the same thing everyone else has been doing for a while.
@@jasonGamesMaster Other than the mechanics, I don't think CO is that similar to BitD at all. The Fantasy/Steampunk Victorian setting gives me Dishonoured vibes more than anything else.
That being said, Vaesen is a 19th century fictional Europe where a secret society of gifted folk have to protect the world from fantasy monsters that people don't know exist...
Not like that concept is that unique. That's the story of Hellboy, Men In Black, etc.
I just think that it's because Vaesen is so new, and because the photography and 'look' of CO is so similar, it makes the tonal similarities more distinct. The CO characters even look very, very similar to the archetype drawings in the Vaesen core book.
I'm just really glad they acknowledged Vaesen with a shout-out, because it is a phenomenal game, and I have a hard time imagining that the people involved in CO didn't at least draw some inspiration from it.
Vaesen more-so than Call of Cthulhu because the look is more distinctly European than American, and in Vaesen (as in CO), you are the protagonist, actively going out and solving cases. You start with the initiative.
In CoC, you are often on the back-foot, reacting to some unfolding terror. It's a pretty big distinction, in my opinion.
@@GreyHunter88 fair enough. I definitely prefer Vaesen over CoC for lots of reasons, the primary being folklore is far more interesting to me that the mythos. As for the similarities between CO and BitD, the term steampunk is essentially meaningless, but they both feel very much in that realm to me. I think it's all pretty subjective though
I'm a two to three years into playing TTRPGs regularly (and even trying my hand at game design) and I'm quite excited for this TTRPG-wide Renaissance in light if the OGL. I do hope what you said come true: that we'll see a new era of game designers borrowing mechanics from other designers and together breath new innovation in game design sensibilities.
"Deathbringer doesn't have a joke at the end of this video."
Deathbringer *IS* the joke at the end of the video. 🤭
*picks up a handfull of dice* Yeah that's right Deathbringer, I said what I said - skin that cheese-slicer and get to work; roll for initiative...
Professor, in keeping with the theme of the RHCP, the part right before the "Give it away, give it away, give it away now" seems very appropriate:
Realize, I don't want to be a miser
Confide with sly, you'll be the wiser
Young blood is the lovin' upriser
How come everybody wanna keep it like the Kaiser?
The reference to Sly and the Family Stone notwithstanding, he's stating that he doesn't mind sharing and wonders why people want total control of something.
My love of gaming began in the “Before Times,” when only war games from Avalon Hill and SPI could satisfy my need to roll dice. Then came a game called D&D, and the hobby of gaming was changed forever.
I can attest that the Professor knows that of which he speaks. He has scored a crit on his “Knowledge: RPG History” roll.
Professor DM, may all YOUR rolls continue to be 20s! :)
Thank you. Video for you, in case you missed it: ua-cam.com/video/7x4u3BsBGFg/v-deo.html
The. People reacted to DnD and spun other systems, and forests of wondrous fruits were planted
what an era to live in, the new gen DnD nerds discovering the wider world of smaller ttRPGs, indea design and the absolutelly massive amount of "borrowing" we all do when making all these wild and insane little indies come to life ! Hopefully we are in for a rennessance of ttRPGs and a new movement in the culture.
Im genuenly supprised that this has caused a controversy at all but on the other hand im still happy that CR is doing other games at all since I really personally dont care for 5e.
Good on you Prof DM. I don't think I've ever commented on your videos before but I do appreciate your balanced and considered perspective. Without commenting directly on different opinions below, I do think that open sourcing this type of content is truly in the spirit of the game. Keep up the reasoned and informative content. And thank you.
Thank YOU for commenting. Here's a little something to brighten your day: ua-cam.com/video/7x4u3BsBGFg/v-deo.html
Got the update and similar point of view from Dungeons & Discourse. Your way of connecting this to a looong tradition is much appreciated Professor! I think we're now heading into a real golden age for rpg's due to the opening up of the rpg culture.
It doesn't matter. You can't copyright mechanics. So no matter how similar as long as the words and phrases are different it's fine.
As a caveat, let me start by saying you yourself likely understand this. The following is for younger viewers who may not.
Legality isn't the same as Ethics & Morality.
Not that I think there is a problem. But a level of moral development that equates to "The Law determines Morality." is incredibly juvenile. Literally (re: Kohlberg's theory of moral development)
Copyright Law in general is arguably severely immoral anyway and should be ignored in the context of morality (but not legality, if you dont want to be harmed by unethical people and their goons).
Back in the day we mined all sorts of sources for our games. No two tables were playing D&D in the same way, or any other game for that matter, because it was understood that was how things were and were supposed to be. How you decided the rules worked was how they worked at your table. People swapped things in and out of their games all the time. My 1e AD&D books are full of colored line throughs of rules I wasn't using for that particular campaign, hand written notes for what I was using, articles from Dragon magazine, from White Dwarf, things I took from other RPG publishers or generic campaign settings that could be used across a wide variety of RPG systems. I didn't like 2e or the 1e Unearthed Arcana book very much but I certainly mined both for 1e and D&D.
There were elements of D&D I adapted for use when we played Mech Warrior and Battletech. Things I took from Traveller, Car Wars, Boot Hill, Gamma World, Dawn Patrol, Squad Leader and its supplements, and a host of other games. The games we created were inspired by all those things and more. I cannot think of any game that is completely original, all stand on the shoulders of the games and ideas that came before them.
That two people, or two dozen people out of the millions of gamers making games and modifying others should come up with something similar is not at all unlikely, it is highly probable. I don't enjoy Critical Roles show because for my tastes it is too little game play and too much of them acting with Mercer and each other, but I wish them best of success with their new game.
I think most people were just excited for something new and creative not just a quick reskin
Well, if you been around as long as I have, there really isnt much that is new,
How much can you truly do with some dice and paper that's never ever been done before?
@@OnlyHereForCake i have seen thatvquestion asked nearly everyvyear since I started in 78, firstvitvwas dnd,which actually was 3 systems, one combat, then saving throws, then skills in percentile and simetimes homebreq roll under stat
Then I found RQ and d100 totally differemt. Then traveller , then aftermath with a wonderfulltly crunchy stepped system, then
Arcamum with a roll under d20 system, then.....then there was Petersen, the same guide tyat helped develop d100, create dice pool system, then....
I am always hopeful, some smart guy will see a new way to run the dice, but usually, I have seen rehash with adopting other mechanics tacked on
Thank you for posting this. This really needed to be said. You have to love how humanity loves to jump on the outrage bandwagon without any context or knowledge of the facts and details. Thank you! 🙏
You are welcome. Thank YOU for commenting. Here's a fun video, in case you missed it: ua-cam.com/video/7x4u3BsBGFg/v-deo.html
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 And the Grammy goes to… DEATHBRINGER! 🤘
Thanks for the idea and I do agree as I am currently in the process of writing my own RPG. It is very true like you stated that that process is heavily influenced by what we have played and been exposed to. My own RPG feels like an homage in my writing to those great influencers like yourself and others; there is no intent to steal from those things that I love.
Cool!
Me too.
This was a fantastic video! So educational, thorough, and interesting. Really interesting to hear about the early days of the TTRPGs- would love to hear more about the history of games from the 60s.
I remember those days. Thank you for bringing back fond memories.
Correct again, Professor! Lots of board games use similar mechanics too. As an example, Eldritch Horror is similar, where players role to get 5 or 6, and items and abilities add dice, damage to character removes dice from the pool. The use of a board and decks of cards replaces the dm. Nothing about rolling d6 is special. "Nothing to see here, folks. It happens all the time."
People also seem to be missing the fact that the system it's based on, Illuminated Worlds, was designed by Stras Acimovic and Layla Adelman. Stras was one of the two lead designers on Evil Hat Productions' first Forged in the Dark games, Band of Blades and Scum & Villainy, alongside John LeBoeuf-Little. Evil Hat Productions also were the ones that put out Harper's Blades in the Dark.
I don't get why people are weirded out that one of the first designers in the FitD-space made another game that has a lot of roots in the FitD ruleset?
"John Harper, who has said he has no problem with this"
That tells you pretty much all you need to know lol.
Exactly.
Well done professor. I think some people take it for granted that everyone knows game history. These messages are important.
More to come. Thanks for commenting. In case you missed it: ua-cam.com/video/7x4u3BsBGFg/v-deo.html
What a fantastic video! Me and my group started following your channel since your very reluctant OGL video 😉, and your viewpoint on what TTRPG is, and the culture it should be cultivating is something that made me and my group fall in love with the community. We're all in our 20s (90s kids) so these sort of videos are so enriching and I think serves as a beacon to preserve the tabletop scene as one that doesn't need to be over-monetized and censored so to speak. Sharing and collaboration is the best way for everyone to profit.
Matt Mercer was born in 1982. Im pretty sure he doesnt remember gaming in the eighties. I suspect like most of us elder millenial gamers he learned the game with AD&D 2nd edition, perhaps from folks who had been a part of TTRPG culture in the eighties.
Haha. If Matt Mercer remembers his "gaming in the 80s" it would be playing with blocks, matchbox cars, and (if he was lucky) he-man.
Good point. He's def a 2nd Ed guy though. He's said so.
his mom played games with Darin De Paul. his guest character was the character from that game. he grew up with Dungeons and Dragons.
Tabletop gaming is not too dissimilar to open source software. We borrow ideas from each other all the time, and we're happy to let people do it! As the years pass, everyone ends up with better software. Share ideas, borrow concepts, experiment, playtest, iterate. We all benefit in the end.
You don't roll a bunch of d6 in PbtA games, you roll 2d6, add a stat, and try to get 7 or higher. Stras Acimovic, half of the designers for Illuminated Worlds, helped John Harper work on Blades from the beginning, and his games were stretch goals for the original Blades in the Dark Kickstarter campaign. I don't think Stras gets royalties for Blades or anything, but he has worked with this system since the beginning.
You are correct. I said that in my Candela Obscura review but I totally forgot in this one.
I wasn't aware of this "scandal" but I'm happy this video showed up on my recommendations, very clarified and interesting, awesome content! Thank you 😊
Thanks!
Thank you for laying out the “scandal” so succinctly. I had seen a couple of click-bait headlines from people I generally don’t watch/read. When attempting to figure out what was going on with this “CR scandal”, I ended up just watching several people just yak and yak and yak and never get to the point! This is the first time that I actually understand what this drama is. In four minutes I now understand what I couldn’t in a cumulative 40 minutes and in eight minutes I know where I stand.
Thank you. I try to be succinct. Exactly! Thanks for commenting. In case you missed it: ua-cam.com/video/7x4u3BsBGFg/v-deo.html
I've been playing ttrpgs since 1981. I've already told a few much younger gamers that Candela isn't "stealing" anything that wasn't already "stolen" many, many times before. They're just too young to have any perspective, about many subjects outside of ttrpgs. Film, music, art, etc.
Thanks for the history lesson.
As for the scandal, I think there is a bit of nuance given the size of Critical Role. In the gaming world (and not just there), we have seen large companies take things from the "little guy", and use their brand recognition to capitalize on the idea. Only to start threatening with lawsuits/pinkertons if we but share a simple picture or screenshot of their product. Now, I'm not saying CR is doing this. Honestly I don't even know how much they copied from other games, nor do I really care all that much because games copy things from each other all the time. But the illusion that CR is *just* "a bunch of nerdy ass voice actors playing D&D" has long dropped. They make money, and lots of it. Which means as creators, they are starting to be judged the same way as other companies. And considering we just went through a phase of a company wanting to make money off of community creations, I think a lot of people might be a bit scared that CR is already showing some of those tendencies, when they were supposed to be the "weapon to defeat the evil".
I hear you.
I agree with you on this take.
The honest truth is it's a bit of that, and it's a bit of the fact that Critical Role has targeted an audience mostly consisting of younger people, and younger people tend to be, well, stupid, by virtue of a lack of world experience. That and they openly embrace the more... "woke" elements of their audience. And those people are just morons.
When CR did a one-shot sponsored by Wendy's using Wendy's TTRPG system (yes, this is a thing, lol), their fans went crazy and called for a *boycott of CR* because they "sided with a capitalist business who treats their employees poorly". I _wish_ I was making this up. What did CR do? They immediately apologized and took the video down.
Every time CR does something that their room-temperature-IQ fanbase disapproves of, they cave to them. They brought this on themselves in a way.
@@Scorpious187 I'm curious what you have arbitrarily decided is 'younger', in your case is it anyone below the age of 50?
@@Scorpious187 Could you define "woke", sir?
One of my favorite TTRPGs is Delta Green, which is based on the Call of Cthulhu system. My favorite actual-play show uses DG and borrows some Pulp Cthulhu rules and some extra CoC rules. The thematic tones in Candela Obscura are really similar to DG, which is great! Love when we can all come together as a community of dice rollers to make cool new things and celebrate the things we love and took inspiration from. It's not like we can accuse the x-files of 'stealing' from DG; we're just excited for a show with a really specific tone & theme that scratches that same itch! Is anyone ever mad that an ice cream parlor has 100 flavors and 10 of them are chocolate based? No! They're each a little different and the small nuances make up its identity. stupid analogies aside, what I'm trying to say is, more people should play Delta Green LOL.
I'm 41 and saw this revolution. And when I see D6 I think about GURPS. I don't know why GURPS is not mentionned by you professor.
Always glad when someone mentions GURPS. That system doesn’t get the respect it deserves.
I WILL mention GURPS in the future. I actually DID mention GURPS in an alternate take that was not used.
Thanks. I had a lot of fun and math with GURPS. The system lives in a weird healm amidst the other: simple ideas - complex excecution. My friends says that GURPS rules are more real then reality itself. The greatest thing for me was the freedom of scenario.
Long time gamer (D&D 1st edition as a 15YO in the 70's) and thought the same thing. Jackson seemed to have the same issue of separating genre from mechanics being a potentially business savvy way to create copyrightable content isolated from mechanics; using percentile dice to represent the attempt was pretty cool and CofC grabbed that. I do like the way Candella Obscura's system gives you the option of deploying extra "oomph" on critical rolls (heh) ... anything that changes the whole min/max math major hijinks back towards role playing is a plus in my book. Mechanics should be like stage craft- the focus should be on the actors, not the set, lighting, or practical effects. Thanks for the very thoughtful and historically grounded vid!
I think it was a mistake they didn't make sure that they acknowledged Blades in their base instructions, but from everything I have heard, yes Blades knew they were being copied and they corrected that. I can understand the controversy before this came up, but I am glad they clarified. The flip side of it is, as much as I want to play Candela Obscura, I want to play Blades now.
Nothing like a good scandal to begin the week.
This scandal brought to you by the Pinkerton's online troll farm and paid for by Wizards of the Coast!
That's what I thought. It was like, "this is a dumb non-scandal scandal but it will kick off the week with a lot of views." Review of Mazes TTRPG coming later this week. Watch that.
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 of course!
I agree with you. In fact the two systems I'm working on plan on releasing the rules for free and only charging for setting material or adventures.
Theres a ton of fantasy TTRPGs that have similar mechanics and settings, and you dont hear many people knock them for being derivative (then again not a lot of people know about all the indie and smaller games out there).
Great point.
The rolling a of number of D6's with 5's and 6's being successes has been around for a long time. The Arkham Horror board game uses that system.
Correct. In case you missed it: ua-cam.com/video/7x4u3BsBGFg/v-deo.html
Good to know what’s going on, thanks for sharing
I wont lie, I was expecting a whole lotta "Matt Mercer/Crit Role bad mmkay!?"
But it was actually a really refreshing mini history lesson! And as someone who is somewhat new to D&D and TTRPGs, that's a nice little nugget of knowledge~
Honestly, people will find a reason to complain about anything, teach a man to fish and all that. .-.
As a 25 year old who was born around 1998 or thereabouts who became aware of 5e around when critrole was becoming popular, I feel called out! I found out about d&d when I was a bit younger actually through some 4e and 3.5e videos online and wanted to try it, but didn't get the chance until college. But without the emotional attachment to critrole I seem to have been more open to trying other systems than some of my friends.
Cool. Play more games!
ask some Grognards to run through some 1e with you, you won't regret it.
Brilliant analysis, I was leery of clicking, because of the title, but very glad I did. Top notch content as always. Thanks
It doesn't bother me. To me Critical Role's system is irrelevent and I'm pretty sure most people watch CR for its cast and DM, not its system. If the creator of BitD is ok with it, then even better. Im not necessarily a fan of CR, but it seems people like to tear down those at the top at some point or another. At the end of the day CR is about entertaining people and if it does that, then mission accomplished.
Exactly. It's pretty much impossible to come with entirely unique mechanics forty+ years into game design.
Isn't Blades basically Powered by the Apocalypse which was an open-designed system intended to be borrowed and used in various games.
I think it's too bad they weren't more clear about the source from the get go. Scum & Villainy is one of my favorite RPGs and knowing that Candela Obscura was co-designed by Stras Acimovic would only have increased my excitement for it. I get that people wanted "something new" but FitD is great. It's a little crunchier than PbtA but still no where near as rules heavy as D&D.
Thanks for watching!
I think I like this more relaxed, casual, conversation from the professor. It's a nice change of pace.
Funny you should mention that. I taped this when I am at my most mellow--Sunday morning, after church. Very little script, just speaking form the heart. Someone else said, "I liked the video, but you seem a little tired. Are you okay?"
Weird how all of this probably could have been prevented by slapping a "Forged in the Dark" sticker on their announcement.
You know, like every other game inspired by Blades seems to have no problem doing.
Yep or just "thanks to ...."
I gotta disagree with "it's not even close to a forged in the dark game." I think it's pretty darn close, but just different enough to warrant not being called forged in the dark.
Just wanted to drop a comment to clarify. Candela Obscura is the setting. Illuminated Worlds is the system.
I still want to see Deathbringer spend some quality time with Gordon Gekko.
Which makes me think a party of fantasy adventurers might have a decent time assaulting the Ventrue tower from VtM Bloodlines. Seems as legit as Expedition to the Barrier Peaks
I think they might have been rushing slightly to get the quick start rules out and did not have a chance to put out the 'we took inspiration/we're using the creative commons for this system' paragraph. Like I feel they had all intentions to put it in the main core rules for the system, but somewhere for the quick start it got dropped. I do not feel as though Matt Mercer, who by far one of the nicest, kindest human beings, would NOT go out of his way to steal and claim something as his own. They quickly fixed their mistake, the original creator is good with it. Nuff said.
And you're right - we need more creative collabs between creators. New ideas are fun. Sometimes someone else's idea could be just the thing that you need in your world/system. I think with creative commons and the like out in the world, it helps to foster this collaboration spirit. Glad that we were able to get Wizards to open up to CC. Hopefully independent creators can fix 5e/5.X, as they've been doing, or someone will create a better system for the base skeleton we're getting.
Anyways, great thoughts and video.
Exactly.
I think you hit the nail right on the head. It's jealousy with a splash of ignorance.
I think the demo doc is just a demo doc, meaning putting in information about game systems that influenced its development would be extra information. I imagine when the game's full rulebook drops, like other forged in the dark rulebooks, it'll list its influences.
I think a more interesting question would be what happens when someone else makes a game that is really similar to Candela Obscura, and Critical Role's response to it?
Well in that case, it would just be similar to Blades in the Dark again.
the issue is how is it similar? If it's the game system, nothing happens. But if you use the content of the books you are getting into trouble if you use it in a way that they did not approve (the story, names of cities, the characters, etc) and as the video says you have to change the name of the stats and things like that.
Illuminated Worlds - what they've called their ruleset - will be coming out with the full Candela Obscura book, as I understand. And it's supposed to be adaptable and setting-agnostic. So... I imagine they'll want credit.
To me, as a person who has run BitD, the core of the game is the flashback system and the clocks. These arent present in CO. The entire 3 categories with abilities always felt like a stripped down World of Darkness. This all feels like a game of outrage telephone. Some people played Blades and saw the rolling system and said. "Oh, kind of like Blades in the Dark." From there casual fans, who probably would be happy if CR stayed in a familiar system, started screaming plagiarism. Honestly, i like what Candela showed early and ill also be glad if it encourages folk to try Blades.
Darrington Press is positioned, by sheer investment but also its unique ability to market their products through critical role, to take mechanics developed by smaller creators and make much more lucrative products from them. That by itself is not a problem, and it could be argued that the exposure in critical role will trickle down to their inspiring games, but as you only skimmed in the beginning of the video, they didn't include any form of acknolegment to Blades in the Dark. They've since corrected that mistake - after fan backlash. I think it's great that players can engage critically with the games they consume and demand that clear trail of acknolegdement, which helps new gamers find the games that could otherwise be obscured by larger, newer games.
Well stated counterpoint. And I would add there are degrees of similarity. Candela is very, very similar to Blades. Far more so than Blades is similar to Apocalypse World.
Thanks Professor. Not only did I get a clear view of this (I hadn't heard about it until now) but it gave me a little clarity on and older mental struggle of the whole Arneson and Gygax mess. Anyway really good video and thanks for being the adult in the room.
I don't think the people upset about the Critical Roll thing are upset about heavy borrowing or influence. At least not the mature ones. The scene that Forged in the Dark and Powered by the Apocalypse are part of is built on borrowing. This isn't something that just happened back in the 70s, it's alive in the Indy community today (and also OSR community for that matter). I think what troubles people is that Critical Roll has a big platform and an opportunity to use that platform to lift others up and they often seem to at best forget to do so. This is of a piece with when they ran a game heavily influenced by Mothership a few years back and gave no acknowledgement until days later on Twitter, or putting fan art before their shows without credits. In this case they course corrected and did put the acknowledgements in, but I think most of the anger was before that was done.
Also, at least based on the quickstart, CO looks like a near carbon copy of Forged in the Dark (not surprising since one of their designers is a well regarded FitD creator). As Justin Alexander points out, this might be a false impression since quickstarts aren't a complete ruleset, but if it really is so close I personally think, as part of lifting others up, they could have just called it a Forged in the Dark game instead of creating their own system brand for it.
None of what was done is immoral I think, but it isn't classy and I think it's reasonable to be annoyed.
Spot on. And all the responses here that I've read do not address this point.
I'll also add that I personally think they changed enough to not call it FitD, but just barely. However, your main point still stands.
Loved your discussion. I am currently reading1979 Advanced Dungeon and Dragons Dungeon Masters Guide. It's interesting to go back and read that and see what has been taken from this iconic book and used in today's TTRPGs.
In my humble opinion, 1st ed DMG is one of the best books written, as it had everything, I started DMing with just the PHB and the DMG all those years ago, and though DnD is no longer my first choi e, it is my first love
Prof DM making sure we get the hint “my non-controversy video already covered this way better but you smooth brained noodles didn’t watch that so now I’ve got to hop on the drama bandwagon”
Time to watch that video so I can get some wrinkles in my brain :D
I don't mind designers taking ideas from other games. As long as they're honest about it. What grinds my gears is when designers bill their system as new and innovative when it's just a copy of something else and never disclose that. That just seems misleading to me.
I think the issue is moreso the popularity of Critical Role. They don't really "tip their hats" to other designers, and they aren't active participants in TRPG design communities. They're juggernauts. If I write Marvel fanfiction or something that's fine because I'm not popular, if Disney steals my story for the new movie that's kinda shitty because they're a billion dollar company and I'm just a small fish writing stories for fun- even if it is legal because they own the characters. I get your point that "This is how things used to be," but times have changed, it's not just small fish in the pond anymore- and the big, billion dollar players need to be held accountable when they slip up.
I understand your point of view and welcome it.
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 As I do yours! All that being said, excellent video, as per usual. Your insight and knowledge on the early days of wargaming and roleplaying is always valuable in the community.
On the scale of things, I’m very new to the TTRPG community. The griping and sniping and accusations seem to be a loud but minor portion of the community. I love that each table is a little different, even when playing the same system.
Thanks for the reasonable and gentle history lesson, PDM
Thanks for the video, it was informative. On the other hand ¿Are you OK Professor? you sound kind of tired
Lol. Funny you should say that. I taped this on a Sunday afternoon with the barest of scripts. I decided to just talk to the camera and not overthink it. But I guess it comes across as low-energy.
It's almost like genre conventions and individual game mechanics are shared and we just all build off of one another because tabletop devs and GMs just wanna see all of us enjoying all our ideas as a whole.
If they would have made another DnD d20 clone no one would have been as angry lol
right? I feel like the same people shrieking about Candela being similar to BitD are the same people who would immediately praise literally any game that was based on 5E
The Daggerheart system is D20 based so this will happen again and aghain as people seem to want to complain about feck all
Hadn't heard anything about this and glad I haven't seen any news stories about it either, what a silly thing to be outraged by. Oh, you forgot to mention GURPS as one of those early systems from the 80's...
I mentioned it in an alternate take. I have to mention GURPS more.
For me personally, Candella didn’t sit right for how close it was to Blades, but I had heard Harper gave it a thumbs up, so who am I to complain.
It still feels underwhelming for what was promised.
I can see that. Glad you enjoy Blades.
Thanks for the reasonable analysis.I will check out the Elusive Shift.