The Rhetoric of Mamamax - The Shortcomings of Internet Vigilante Justice
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- Опубліковано 28 чер 2024
- It was really the rabbit hole that only got deeper....
*There is a brief duplicated clip around 1:26:50, I am editing out with the youtube editor, it just takes a long time to publish, it'll be fixed eventually*
Sources:
Site that archived Max's Content: preservetube.com/channel/UCpo...
Videos I Watched (in order of me watching them):
Red Pagan Interview was Deleted
• Mamamax Is a Complete ...
• The Fall of MamaMax - ...
• Mutahar Breaks His Sil...
• The Mama Max Allegatio...
• The Aftermath of The M...
• MamaMax Apologized!!!
• MamaMax Lied About EVE...
• Mamamax is an Unhinged...
• The Situation Just Got...
• The Downfall Of MamaMax
• THE LIES OF MAMAMAX!!1
• The MamaMax Leaks Just...
• This Video Will Make Y...
• INSANE DRAMA CONTENT +...
• MamaMax is Taking Seri...
• Mamamax Keeps Making T...
• Mutahar Breaks His Sil...
• YOU CAN'T HURT ME PODC...
• lolcow breakup, last J...
• The Downfall Of MamaMax
• The MamaMax Discord Ca...
• MamaMax' Survivor Disc...
TIMESTAMPS
0:00 - Intro Sequence
2:16 - Introduction
6:10 - Part 1: Who is Mamamax
9:15 - 1.1: Early Career
11:05 - 1.2: Predator Hunting
16:19 - 1.3: Max's Own Allegations
29:47 - 1.4: Spencer
40:37 - Part 2: Where it All Went Wrong
46:14 - 2.1: Demanding UA-cam and Influencer Involvement
1:04:42 - 2.2 Mutahar, Nick Deorio, Xylie, & Chud Logic
1:35:26 - 2.3: 'Apology' Video
1:45:08 - 2.4 Patreon Post
1:52:21 - Part 3: The Sensationalization of Serious Allegations
1:57:32 - 3.1 Using "Protecting Children" as a Defense
2:02:25 - 3.2: Use of Stylistic Messaging
2:06:46 - Conclusion
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Hey! Not sure if Mika or anyone else will see this comment but I want to clarify that Spencer is claiming that Anthony Field *(not Camden)* was the one who apparently continuously snuck into the high school after graduating. There is no evidence that this occurred. Again, *Camden was not the person being accused of this*.
Further context for audience members: the person she’s accusing of this, Anthony Field (Magnetar on YT), is the person currently raising funds for a harassment & defamation suit against Max because of his repeated and baseless claims of being a p*dophile and is also the long-term boyfriend of the woman Max has admitted to “obsessing over” and is accused of stalking since they were in high school together. They have confirmed this with police reports filed at the time of the occurrences.
I feel like every little thing in this case requires an encyclopedia of context for people to understand 😆
Yes I’m really upset about this error and I wanted to make a comment, but I’ll pin this one because it’s a better explanation that I could have come up with. There was so much content and I got lost in the call and mixed up the topic in my notes.
BASED 👊💜🤘
@@MikasRhetoric it’s totally understandable!! There’s so much content and context and people and occurrences and accusations, I can’t imagine having to timeline everything and everyone and then sit down in front of a camera and explain it to people who have never heard of these people. Don’t sweat it, you did great!
I watched a bunch of videos about this and legitimately thought Camden was the one sneaking into the school. This makes a lot more sense lol I was so confused bc Camden didn’t live in the same state?? Also, it’s interesting that she knew a non-student was repeatedly predating on freshmen and decided to move tables instead of alerting a teacher/telling someone. He would’ve never known it was her that alerted staff! The math ain’t mathin..
Yes…an absolutely forgivable error…..this whole thing is so complicated
Dear men with microphones: You don't have a deep manly voice it's called The Proximity Effect and you need to BACK UP from the microphone because the muffled bassy sound is killing innocent people.
YES PLEASE
😂😂😂😂😂
i played the intro on speakers any my neighbours are now filing a noise complaint due to the rumbles
@@jtw-r OH NO
They think they're Optimus Prime!
22:54 “my exes are, as always, accusing me of rape.” ummmmmm… run that back for us real quick maxy?
yeah never trust someone who has had "nothing but crazy exes" especially if they're all "accusing of r*pe"
i can confidently say i have never had an ex accuse me of that although thats a sentence i never thought id say but alas...the men be trippin yet again smh
2 exes, 1 wife of 12 years, 0 rapes, 0 allegations.
@@OddShapedHead_Phil evidently, in max’s world, you’re a unicorn.
yes, that make me go "hm..." also no one is talking about the fact he used to watch lolicon witch is hentai with kids
NEVER trust someone who tries to pull the “all of my exes are crazy” nonsense. I had already got some weird pretentious vibes from the Pick a Side UA-cam era, but that video is what cemented for me that Max is beyond egotistical and generally untrustworthy. It’s a shame to see how hard he’s “fallen.”
YES 100%
The voice filter is very incel coded
Ikr? Authenticity and straightforwardness are right there, perfect to cover serious topics, but he had to modify voice
Coded?
@The_Punisher Coded is kind of a way of saying it has "understones" or "implies" something. It's related to something or something without directly saying it.
mamamax is pretty much an incel poster child
His over the top husky voice costume and hyper dramatic music is pretty much impossible for me to take seriously despite how badly he wants to be taken seriously lol
The idea that if someone abuses you, you must go no contact immediately or you are lying is super duper freaking ignorant as well.
This kind of ignorance comes from people who have never been in an abusive relationship obviously. I'm glad for them but at the same time, that ignorance leads to really toxic notions that only further harm those that have survived it.
Most people don't know in the moment they have been abused/assaulted. It's something that typically takes time to truly understand and start to digest and it's even harder if the person that did it is someone you care about or trust.
Yea totally, the main reason people stay in abuse relationships is because they are financially and emotionally dependent on their abuser, and/or their abuser has threatened them in some way to stay in that relationship. Another thing is how easy it is to rebound back into that abusive relationship because their abuser literally changed their how brain reacts to things around them, to depend on their abuser, and to not know how to function without their abuser. Human brains are extremely easy to manipulate and when a habit is formed its extremely hard to break!
I look back on my own abusive relationship and cringe at myself for going back to them three times. But its important not to blame the victim because they’re trying to heal to semblance of normalcy after the abuse. If it weren’t for me finally coming out to my parents about how bad the relationship was and them constantly aiding me in my healing journey, I probably would be married to that person today. Anyways, sorry for the rant! I saw ur comment and felt seen for a second hahaha
@@midgematic8659yeah it makes me feel seen too. I was sa’d by my ex and it’s really weird processing it. It’s a traumatic experience for me but I rationalized it and made it okay or normal in my head. It’s really hard to deal with sometimes.
*And from people who convince themselves abusive relationships or dynamics they've been in weren't abusive/were convinced by their abuser(s).
I've dealt with people who were abused, neglected etc coming after others and myself for the same reason, even though they were very, painfully in the midst of being abused themselves, but would never admit to it.
not max giving chatgpt higher billing than the survivors... hello??
OMG 😭😭😭😭
It’s fascinating that the other creator says he wouldn’t be pulled into a cult at 16. Anyone can get convinced by a cult at any age. It would just be the right thing, at the right time for the right person. For some people it could be a mulititude of things. For others it might be a slim chance. To assume you’re too smart to be pulled into something like that is often the exact reason they get pulled in. The theory being, they assume because they’re convinced by it, and they’re so smart and not gullible at all, that means they must be right and this is the way forward. It’s happened a lot, it will continue to happen because human brains are mushy!
It's so "funny" that they claim they are too smart and would never be tricked and fooled by a cult member WHILE they heva all been tricked and fooled by Max for years...
Maybe it's my age and the time I grew up in (I'm 37 so I did much of my growing up in the 90s) but I remember being dumb as fuck at 16 and believing all sorts of wild things. That being said, yes it can absolutely happen to anyone. Look at Scientology.
If you fall for a twilight roleplay cult at any age, I'm sorry but that's just plain stupid
@@nikkovalidor4890 It seems you have missed the point. The point is that people believe in ridiculous things at any age. If they didn’t, than cults as a whole would be a lot more rare than they actually are.
In high school my friend and I convinced my 17 yr old bf that I was actually a Martian. Of course I didn’t believe it, it was a joke. But we sold it. He was emotionally vulnerable coming from a background with abuse and abandonment from alcoholic parents and step-parents. He had other issues as well but that taught me that if you sell it right folks will believe a lot of stuff. (Pizzagate? Taylor Swift as a democrat operative? Yeah.)
Finally someone covering the situation with more than an ounce of nuance and without saying slurs every 15 seconds! Genuinely thank you for sacrificing your mental health for all of us
It’s so sad that so many comments have to ring this sentiment :((
1qqqqqq11q111qqq1qq1qq@@MikasRhetoric
i'm so grateful for your perspective on this subject, mika. my algo has been completely destroyed by my attempts to make some sense out of this situation, and it's been nothing but right of center edgelords with no indoor voices and influencer diction clogging up my recs. 😭 i just want to understand what happened and what went wrong, especially as someone who was a viewer of mamamax's content after he flipped over into his predator hunting era.
I’m happy you liked the video!!
@@MikasRhetoric absolutely! as a former viewer of mamamax's, i can definitely say that i am incredibly disappointed in him and even to an extent somewhat hurt by all of this. i'm sure i'm not alone in feeling manipulated. having the situation framed as a meta-analysis helped me begin the process of sorting out my thoughts. i'm very glad i found your channel.
as things were unfolding, i initially believed that max started out with good intentions; i certainly viewed his predator hunting videos as extremely theatrical, overly dramatized and aesthetic representations of his real investigations. i also saw them as a way for victims of abuse to find catharsis in seeing a fictionalized representation of their abusers punished. probably gruesome to an outside observer, but how a victim heals is very individual, i guess, and seeing a stylized horror movie version of a pdfile getting beaten with a bat was my shot of comfort. fiction is a great way to explore the uglier side of things in a controlled and safe environment.
clearly, i gave this guy way more credit than he deserved. i can't believe i was going to bat for a film bro all this time.
anyway, now i honestly don't know if his intentions were all that good. i've known boys like max in high school who viewed themselves as misunderstood and unloved, who and instead of doing any sort of self-examination and taking strides to improve, they see themselves as protagonists up against a cruel world. i've been subjected to the kind of nice guy browbeating that's tailor-made to make me feel guilty for enforcing boundaries, and i have a hard time believing that someone like that would turn to this for any reason other than to stroke their own ego and feed into their savior complex. add to that the fact that max bamboozled so many of us into never even questioning whether his investigations ever led to substantial result. he let us believe he was doing the good worked and reaped the benefit, anyway.
i started feeling uneasy and fell off watching him after he responded to the allegations levied against him in his "go off, sis" video. i went through the entire google drive he dropped filled with evidence that all of his exes were lying, and the fact that i only encountered heavily curated and out of context screenshots was really weird to me, but i still wanted to believe that even if he wasn't the greatest boyfriend, he was still doing something good.
anyway, tl;dr, thank you for making this video. i still have a lot to process, being a former viewer and supporter of max who feels manipulated, and have mostly concluded that
a.) mamamax has probably only ever sought validation and we as survivors sure gave it to him bc we're often so marginalized and any scrap of support is greatly appreciated
b.) all the guys who covered this may have come from a place of wanting to get to the truth, but were just as inadequate, clumsy and insensitive mamamax
c.) youtubers/influencers need to stay away from getting involved in criminal investigations, because no matter how much cops suck, they're even less qualified and can only cause harm if they mess up
d.) even i'm not immune to falling into a parasocial relationship with deceptive idiots
anyway sorry for the incredibly long comment lmao and thank you again.
@@goblin-alley thank you for telling me your thoughts even if it’s long! I think a lot of people feel torn because again the root cause is good. But that’s what max wants it seems
Xylie gets real is a great person to check out. She's don't all the mama max stuff.
Literally I'm trying to figure out how to cleanse my algorithm atp 😭
“Go off sis”
Great comeback, max. You got them head with that one…
/s
Even better is: he’s mocking Pau, as she said that when she came out about his behavior and actions toward her.
Dear Mika, you’ve recommended popcorn with all dressed seasoning. As somebody who by coincidence bought popcorn for the first time I’m years yesterday and got an all dressed seasoning to go on it, I now legally have to have some. It would feel like denying fate if I didn’t. I don’t even want any right now. How could you
Don’t test fate bestie 👀
Always made me wonder why he was calling all these influencers. Like what is Anthony Fantano, Pewdiepie and Moistcritical going to do? Stage a sting operation on their own? 😅
Bring eyeballs, attention and views which I think (whether he knows it or not) is all Max truly cares about. His ego and savior complex is rotting his brain. It's been hard to watch happen over the last couple years.
"What's up rocultists, today we're gonna be talking about huma. Trafficking on wattpad."
- Savantics if Mamamax had it his way, probably.
Max has obviously never heard the phrase "the road to hell is paved with good intentions".
he has, i dont think he truly had good intentions though if he's using victims as shields
He said all his past girlfriends and women hes been involved with have accused him of rape???? WHAT???? If every girl youve ever been with has said your a creep I'm pretty sure they are NOT the problem.
In the very, very, veeeerrryy tiny chance they somehow ALL make a false claim of that magnitude, it would still say something about him constantly only getting with people who are willing to do such a thing, even long after he should know better, it would reek of being morally bankrupt and seeking out other morally bankrupt people.
If I'm not mistaken, the girl specifically said "SA" and he twisted her words and said r***... he has no right to be talking about these things smh..
It's so nice to hear a woman's perspective on this. I used to watch mama max a lot in high school and finally unsubbed when around when he changed his channel's name to god cult. I've been waiting to hear what happened since then. I've watched a few of the videos about it from other creators (all men) and some definitely handle this topic in a way that's a off putting. Like casting doubts on some of the women that have spoken out against Max and using the R slur, both of which undercut some of the points they are trying to make. I really appreciate your insight on this. This is by far one of the best videos I've seen on this topic. I know this wasn't easy for you to cover so make sure you're taking care of yourself!
Thank you 🥰🥰🩷
1:13:48
no clue why Max is trying to argue with Muta about cybersecurity stuff since Muta has a degree in cybersecurity and works in that field. Max doing a "well actually ☝🤓" just shows me that he knows nothing about what he proports himself to be an expert in.
It's just very telling that Max tries to say he doesn't know why the hash got activated, and then says he used chatgpt to research instead of actually researching things. It truly shows that he does not care about what he's talking about and a lot of his stuff is to soothe his hero complex.
I’ve had the sense with Max (keeping in mind I never followed him prior to this latest mess) that he thinks he’s so smart that he can talk his way out of any situation. He dug himself a grave with Deorio, and Nick let him walk into it; he tried to talk his way out of the Mega mess the same way and Muta wasn’t having it.
When she got him to say he had never even been in a courtroom... oof.
Xylie is such a goddamn boss
@@grimmgoosegoose216when shes bad shes bad but oof....when shes good....shes great 🫡
The way he refuses to acknowledge how harmful and dangerous his behavior was towards Hailey is so upsetting. He cannot admit how actually scary and deranged any of it was. He STILL makes excuses and tries to downplay it. I saw one british dead space channel go in depth on his incel behaviors and what he did to her and her boyfriend. I'm sorry you can even relate to that story at all and if anyone tries to claim you're somehow incompetent at commentary because of your own personal boundaries they are atrocious.
@/TheBritishRunner is the channel he definitely has some edgier takes regarding some things but for me he seemed a lot better than other commentary bros talking about it lol
She just his ex remember (even though she NEVER DATED HIM) but Max, Muta, Nux and Nexpo are reliable sources right 🥴 I agree, it's important to know your own boundaries, and protect yourself when topics are as extreme as this ❤
This is like QAnon + the true crime obsessed people together. They have a facade of concern but mostly it's about their ego and their own desire to experience these horrible things, or to be close to the situation. The fact that this content has an audience is an indictment on humanity. I would love to know how many of his viewers actively fantasize about being kidnapped and abused so they have an interesting tale, like alien abductees.
Yeah the entire concept of watching "predator poaching" for entertainment never sat right with me, I dont understand the appeal of watching that go down, nor do I see how it actually helps any victims.
From what I've gathered many of the hard-core followers, were in their teens when they started watching and are csa survivors. They wanted to believe that justice was actually accessible, since it wasn't in their situation. He encouraged a strong parasocial relationship, to profit off of their vulnerability.
So, I think his audience was a mixture of both; sheep and wolves.
@@JustSerenelySereneunfortunately that makes perfect sense, i think you're right
I WAS JUST THINKING THIS WAS EERILY SIMILAR TO A QANON SITUATION TYPE DEAL!!! its almost q-adjacent with a splash of inspiration like as if max saw Watchman* once and fully said Yep I Could Do That but somehow managed to take all the wrong messages from it?! can anyone relate to this thought pattern the adhd is adhding
(*from hbo- FANTASTIC SHOW btw)
@@neurotoxicity To me it looks like he went with one possibly true exaggerated story and as it gained in popularity, tons more "victims" came to the fray because he is attractive and popular and they want his attention, and he is so far up his own ass believing his bullshit he doesn't want to see it or doesn't care because he is making 15k a month. It's like a satanic panic epic but the material is crowd sourced the way Qanon works. The audience helps create the content for you.
Also Haley has never been his girlfriend. So many people act like she was dating him.
I think as a woman we've all dealt with a max. And have tried setting boundaries but that never ends well. You're just trying to not get S.Aed or worse.
So many people. Like Muta, Nux and Nexpo who have been sweeping for Max for years now 😬 There's an entire leaked call with an ACTUAL ex, Olivia, where Max ADMITS to emotional and psychological abuse but Muta called her gleeful and the "commentary consensus" was that she was a clout whore (ofc)
I ended up being SA'd by a friend's roommate while trying to avoid being kidnapped & dog knows what else by a Max-type that had been stalking me (again!) at the subway station on my way home. Like, he left these long-ass letters in my dad's mailbox for me, and he was in his mid-to-late 20s while I was only 17.
At least with the roommate, I knew I'd be alive to catch the 1st train home in the morning.
(in my defense, I ran to their apt for help, and the roommate ended up being the only one home that night. I didn't expect him to be such a freaking scumbag as to not stop being a seggs-pest after fearfully explaining that I went to their place to avoid lord only knows from Creepy Stalker. •sigh• F'n men.)
Yeah. I mean- full transparency, me not a woman. I'm a dude.
BUUUTwhen I was in the psych ward this one dude kept harassing like ALL of the girls (or people who were often mistaken for bejng girls?) Like beating us up and stuff. He'd vet super violent if one of us rejected him and dead ass beat me up good one time. My roommate was his partner, idk why they chose to date him considering how he treated all her friends and especially how he treated just all the people there in general, like fr we saw him try to beat up a 7 year old. Bc of that I just. Did not speak. At all. Bc if I talked he'd get pissed off. If I did speak usually I'd be like complying with dumb shit, maybe occasionally telling him to stop being a douche to his partners friend and assuming they want his partner romantically just because they're queer. Apparently the nurses just encouraged it too. They kept telling him to call me a she "because I was born with a vagina" so it was like. Guess I know why he isn't getting in trouble now.
Not as slyly harassment as Max sure but while my comedic retelling doesn't sound so bad everyone in there was kinda scared of him. Nobody really stood up to him, usually we'd just keep our heads down and try to avoid him. Whenever he came over to sit with hispartner, id like, clam up or whatever and just stop talking because he'd beat the sbit out of me for speaking sometimes.
@@dandelion_official4812also Mr. "show me evidence" SOG (Muta) seemed pretty quick to cut ties with a family friend due to Max's allegations (verbal testimony, no evidence. Even though Max was living with that ex friend rent free), so if there was anything Max probably would have found it.) which almost made said ex friend have a grippy sock vacation away from his kids. 😒
@@bersabrie Muta went crying to Nick for help imo - why was he even in that call otherwise 🤔 Commentary is so... Odd?
mamamax thinks using chatgpt is research is tragic tbh. i doubt he has a library card 🧐 there's still so much information, research, tool guides etc locked in books that had just one small press and 2k copies are scaterred around university libraries you can't access if you're not a student/teacher. if you're lucky someone pirated the book but surprise they only needed two chapters for classes so that's not even a full copy
Ethan thought chat GPT was more viable than a doctor, apparently a lot of people have massive brain rot when it comes to chatbots and how they even work.
giiirl the way you just read him the house down w the library card comment 💀 theres a double entendre in there somewhere! the library is open mama
1:26:17 its like that super aggressive, but no-nonsense mom vibe. I don’t love xylie, but I sure as fuck love these moments from xylie. it’s like she’s the stand-in for middle-aged normies to bring the terminally-online youngsters back to earth.
i left this on another comment but it fits here too: when shes bad shes bad but when shes good...shes GREAT. she could be such an incredible lawyer in these moments 🎉
@@neurotoxicity tbh as a lawyer myself, I don’t disagree. watching the way she tore max apart so meticulously felt like watching a brutal, effective cross examination.
i have no idea who mamamax is but with the amount of research streams you did i have to tune in
I'm so glad to see, and other creators outside of that circle, making a video on this. It is so difficult to get through any of the videos made by those guys. People can say I'm too sensitive, but I just don't need to hear a slur every minute, and the almost joking way they handle this stuff was infuriating. I'm sorry to hear that you've gone through some hardship recently, and I think it was super brave and kind of you to make a video on a topic like this regardless. I wish you a swift and comfortable recovery
Lerix is… Not a great guy on top of the slur usage. He’s like, stuck in 2012 edgy humor. Racist sexist S/A joke kind. Only reason he’s so noticed is because he was the first one to hop on this train
Hearing your take on this situation as someone outside the "commentary bros" community is refreshing. I've sat through hours of livestreams and deep dives on this situation and filtering out the people and their audience who covered/invoved to get to the important parts. I understand that it's impossible to cover everything about Mamamax but I was surprised that you didn't include the extent of what happened to Haley/Anthony's (Magnetar) situation. Although they were personal victims of Max, I think everyone is overlooking the story of Night Docs.
NightDocs made essay style videos and he let Max live with him rent free. He never contributed to helping around the house or anything. While living in his home, Max spread rumours about NightDocs to their social circle behind the scenes claiming he was a bad father and surprise surprise...he also called him a predator (towards women and children). He plented that seed in all their friends head and eventually they all distance themselves from NightDocs. No one confronted him about these accusations except Muta (who isn't that close to him) and since there's no way to prove/disprove Max's claims, Muta eventually distance himself. There was nothing NightDocs could do since it wasn't public so speaking out would make him look guilty. He stopped making content after losing all his friends so his mental health declined and he tried to unalive himself. It looks like he's going to come back to youtube but not sure when.
Looking at NighDocs and Magnetar, Max has shown time and time again that he uses his position as a weapon to take people down and it was never about taking down pedators. Even if he had concrete proof supporting his claims, he won't expose them unless they've wronged him in some way. The beef between Tommy C and him is so ironic because he happens to be a victim of child SA and Max disregards that fact.
I could be wrong about this...I can't remember which video that mentioned in the timeline of when spencer approached max, he was beefing with Tommy C so that's the "project" he was busy with and that's why he couldn't start the investigation and put it off for like 4 yrs.
So Spencer really upset me. Because she's clearly lying or exaggerating stuff. As someone who actually had a background similar there's no need to exaggerate stuff.
I was a ward of the state and placed in a group home. I experienced a pregnancy problem that lead to a emergency D&C and a ENTIRE year of constant after care. She said she just "knew" she was pregnant..no tests no nothing. I knew she was lying about that because you don't ask for a D&C. The doctor schedules it for you when you need it.
I experienced a lot more I'd rather not go into..
Spencer clearly had a messed up childhood. There's no need to exaggerate it. It's horrible enough as is.
What also concerns me is how max out her in charge of the money and other survivors are begging for diapers and support. It feels super weird that she's a friend of the family since kindergarten.
Everything comes back to Spencer and his sister. Like the magnatar situation.
Hope he gets enough funding on his legal fund to sue max.
I think she also changing things around. She involved in bring kid/people into the group, but she can't say all that she did as the abuser. So she puts it on the dude or someone else.
Edit: With them pushing that. it was a cult(even if it wasn't a cult it still would make sense of main woman abusing the newcomers), it would make sense Spencer or one of the main "wives" were also an abuser to newcomers/lower of the rank. But it wouldn't fit their narrative of Spencer being the big/main victim.
i went through some similar things that Spencer was talking about too and not to get too deep into anything, its just sort of unsettling how she speaks about it? its almost like she starts out by sharing something but maybe starts to feel like the person doesnt understand so she embellishes to try to one up the situation to make it more 'intense'? i know people that have these tendencies too and it can be frustrating but i honestly am sort of thinking its more of a subconscious coping mechanism (an unhealthy one though, obviously). i totally agree with you though, things dont add up amd some pieces sound like shes explaining how she thinks things would have happened versus just telling the truth without all the added shock pieces. i definitely can see she went through something but doing this on such a public platform is so dangerous to the little credibility most survivors get. i hope i explained all of that correctly! ❤
Someone did brush off my comment when I said the LDS church was a cult by saying, "All religion is a cult." So I had to say "Whatever, fine. It's like a cult within Christianity." Lol. But I know exactly what you mean. People use that word for every and any kind of fan base now. Drives me bananas
THANK YOU
People really misuse or misunderstand the practical meaning of Cult. A really intense Fandom isn't a cult all on its own. The high control aspects are what *could* make it a cult if such conditions exist within it. Same with religion. People saying all religions are cults drive me up the wall, lol. That doesn't even include the classical definition of Cult (cults of devotion for specific Greek/Roman Gods).
As someone who studies religion at the academic level, we actually shy away from using the word "cult" in any context (especially when speaking of American traditions).
The short explanation of why is that the word "cult" has inherently negative connotations that (when publicized) give law enforcement free reign to police religious action (even by force is necessary). If a political body (or even a private one) does not like something, they'll call it a cult and then suddenly it becomes a subject in need of control and containment.
That's why you can have the "cult of Mamamax," the "cult of MLMs," the "cult of Mormonism" and so on. None of those things have anything significant in common because the word "cult" means nothing. Only that people don't like what they're referring to and wish to frame it in a bad light.
Bless you. I tried getting into the situation, but these people who'd talk about it...Hard pass.
yeah the anti-SJW commentary bros are kinda...well, they're not the most nuanced or PC when it comes to talking about this topic
What’s wrong with Mutahar?
They aren’t everyone’s taste, but atleast they try and expel bad apples. Plus, they are very entertaining (mainly only really Nick Deoreo and Muta)
Him putting in a storyline ARG thing in the middle of a video talking about genuine predators that one time was what immediately set off red flags. And then the whole “believe all abusers” video and I knew I had to dip
About people coming into american lunchrooms after graduation, it really depends on the school and the security level. I went to a smaller school and you could really easy sneak someone in, especially if they had recently graduated and knew people there that might let them in.
Also DFW does mean the airport and the Dallas/Forth Worth area of Texas.
And thank you for the new video! I casually follow a few of the "commentary bros" but had never heard of max before this so i appreciate you trying to sum everything up.
I went to a TINY high school and they'd let me check in after graduation to come eat lunch with my little brothers. I couldn't ever go to the classrooms but we were allowed to be visitors during lunch/break times. Esp for family.
I went to a prestigious private school with security guards posted at every gate and PTA moms acting as chaperones at the school cafeteria. But visitors (especially if they're family members of students or alumni of the school) are allowed to come in freely. They just need to sign in and get a visitor's pass at the reception desk.
1:32:51 It's very clear he doesn't care about getting justice, he just likes the attention of being a vigilante he is NOT in any way shape or form a victim advocate
“Once again my exes are accusing me of assault, rape, false imprisonment,-“ delivered so casually is INSANE omgg
I wish I had this video to watch before I sunk like 10 hours of my life into listening to Nick lol
Me but with Lerix😂😂 God, what an asshat
To be honest some of the most annoying parts about mamamax for me is how he literally missed the point of Hotline Miami. The game criticizes using violence for any reason, but specially to further a cause you deem as morally good (regardless of what that is), as a thing that only leads to your own destruction in the end. (Atleast that's what I got from it)
I'm just so annoyed with how people see it as "haha do you like hurting other people lol!" especially with Mamamax since the game literally is going against what he's doing and it's just.. UGH
Like.. using the music from the game, putting on animal masks as a "threat" to predators???
My brother in Christ the game forces you to look back at all that you've destroyed and contemplate what you've done, questioning if it was really worth it every level‼️‼️‼️
anyway that's my rant thanks for coming to my Ted talk and correct me if I'm wrong lol
yes 😭😭 if there wasnt video proof he played the game id actually assume he never even played it
Thank you so much for this video. I love the way you present things. It let me think of this situation in a different way and got me to a place of understanding. He doesn't understand that what the survivors need most is help with their mental health. I am a SA survivor and the only way I got better was through therapy. I was young and the legal system wasn't going to help so I turned it inward and sat on it for 30 years until I finally began to heal. I know every situation is different and some survivors want justice to help with closure. I hope any survivors get the real help they need.
Yes the legal system is also not the only answer for everyone
I was a fan, and a csa survivor. Watching his content felt cathartic. All of this coming out is very hard to deal with rn (also with Vaush) feels like I can't trust what I'm watching for comfort anymore
if people are talking negatively on your ability to talk on topics that have had a personal impact on you, that is not okay! you are a human and i hate that people seem to forget that content creators are humans who have had experiences positive and negative ❤️
Thank you 🩷
True! Personally I find the self awareness needed to admit that very professional
Absolutely, it's a very extreme situation and MamaMax is awful enough, even without personal trauma triggers! It's a shame that the focus more generally is on the wolf cult and botched ops (NOT REFERRING TO MIKA because she did touch on the allegations against him) but commentary coverage in general has been as expected 🤦♂️ Call someone pedo 'cause Max said - ignore fallout completely - get caught out when MAX becomes a bigger story himself (Charlie/Penguin accusations, Tommy C accusations) - furiously sweep under nearest available rug - ask Nick for help - collectively agree a narrative that protects you and ensure the other opportunists know the party line - make bank with lol on Max for making pedo accusations without evidence (even though it was fine before, when you did it before) - move on to next topic - repeat 🤷♂️ We've had Onision, Cyr, Zaptie, Max, Edwin... How many more predatory folks do commentary even have left to sweep for at this point 😂
Oh yes... And Vaush as well now 🤣
thank u for covering this!! i trust your judgment more than those ppl who covered before
🫶
I used to love his old animation vids. I was pretty depressed and watching his videos somehow made me feel more hopeful.
But eventually my depression lifted and I stopped watching his videos. At some point I got curious as to what he was up to and I checked out his channel... But it was a little too scary for me. I tried watching one of his videos but it made me super uncomfortable. I figured it was just an artistic change that didn't jive with me, but it looks like it was more than that...
from the research streams i knew this one will be a doozy because I’ve literally seen both of them and I still have no clue what actually happened 😭 definitely gonna have to come back to this one. Just wanted to pop in and say that your eyeshadow’s gorgeous here Mika!!
SO TRUE I was watched both streams and I was STILL so confused 😭 Mika breaks it down really great though
instead of editing my first comment i’ll make a second one:
first of all tysm for the hard work you put into this. i really respect you and your ethics, ESPECIALLY hearing about how this situation reminded you of personal events .. sending hugs 💞
i was one of the people who suggested this and even i learned new things. seriously, excellent video, thank you again for your dedication, ur awesome 💞🙏🙏
Thank you I’m happy I was able to do justice to people who asked me for the video
nice pfp
The letter to Spencer reads like Max wrote it while peaking on drogas
Perhaps
just started the video and this man is crazy wtf OUR offspring my guy i don't have kids 😭 not necessarily fuck em kids but CALM TF DOWN 😭😭😭
Yup everything is over the top dramatics
Killer video! Definitely my favorite video on this topic that I've seen. The work you put in definitely shows
I agree that it's frustrating the way the call was handled, but I try to remember how frustrating it would be to have Max as a friend. I personally think that Xylie made the same points as Muta but she made them much better. It's nearly impossible for me to ever take Deorio seriously and his laughing and interjection was a net negative
Thank you so much! I am please that people are liking my coverage because it was really hard laying it all out when you’re not involved as much
I'm so glad that you mentioned the manipulative nature of Max with him threatening to harm himself and all against Hayley and how that effects how she'd act. Had an ex who did this and I definitely wouldn't have put up with his antics and bullshit if he wasn't threatening self harm and threatening his own life to guilt trip me to do what he wanted cause cutting ties meant that you'd feel responsible if they did do something to themselves and that is so so so manipulative and disgusting
Mika, you're not just a content creator. You're also a person. Just like with any job, you should never have to be in an uncomfortable situation (even tho i know it still happens). You dont have to cover topics that make you feel any sort of way. I love your brain and your takes. You give such interesting insights to topics I didn't initially care about lol. Just keep doing you and enjoying what you do as you do it!
Thank you 🥹🥹🥹🩷🩷🩷
When I saw the length of this video and that there are subsections…thank u
Law enforcement should not be entertainment
Your breakdown of what even the timeline of all this is is so helpful. It's like the only semi comprehensible list of events I can follow. *THANK YOU!*
Mika, I feel compassion for you and offer validation for your boundaries with this topic. You deserve to feel safe and emotionally regulated. Thanks for sharing and facilitating a particularly vulnerable conversation. 🌈
🥹🥹🩷🩷🩷
i love when you read from books that you have. they always end up being great resources too
I love that you have all of "The Little Book of" books! I have most of them as I trained in conflict resolution. It is great to hear a creator connecting the principles of restorative justice and trauma with this situation, instead of just treating this as "youtube drama". Thanks for coming at this from a different perspective as you always do!
I only took one restorative justice class at the end of my undergraduate, the rest of it is me us bf these books to build on my knowledge. I’m so sad I didn’t discover it before my last semester.
So someone recently came out to magnatar and said they doxxed max. Magnatar had nothing to do with doxxing max. Max is still very obsessed with Anthony.
It's HAILEY he's obsessed with, but yeah, I am PRAYING Magnatar manages to reach his funding goal 🙏🙏🙏 It would help a lot if the other people who accused him of being a pedo (Muta, Nux, Nexpo) would at least give it a shout-out 🤦♂️
@@dandelion_official4812He’s obsessed with Magnetar because of Haley. That’s the thing
I know a lot of people are disoriented about the story, and that’s valid. I think Max handled the story terribly, but moreso than handling an allegation poorly, this whole fiasco revealed he was always an awful person.
TheBritishRunner made a realllllly good, albeit long, video on Max detailing why he was never the person who should have been trusted with this topic and with people’s trauma, and I recommend it
honestly thank you for this because as much as i dislike mamamax and what he did people like lerix and de orio and a lot of others who ganged up on him (rightfully) feel like a bunch of reactionary edgelords. hell, i lowkey respect mutahar from what ive seen of him but even then... i do believe spencer went through something that really hurt her and that her biggest mistake was trusting max in the first place (which, since it seems they are childhood friends, i cant blame her for that). seeing all their subscribers mock her in their comments with NO moderation whatsoever really fucking made my eyeballs roll back into my sockets.
tl;dr: "wow, what a shitshow. i dont respect any of you people".
I feel the same. "Reactionary edgelords" is a great way of putting it. The amount of videos I had to stop watching because people think slurs are okay to throw around was mind-boggling
Yupp Autism is the new R slur, they are all so up themselves, and they are "content brained" - ie it's all fair game, we're here to lolcow and make money, and they decide in their little group discord chats what narrative to go with collectively. Those who stray outside that narrative are smeared, privately and publicly, and told to shut up. ONLY ONE narrative allowed at a time folks 🙄 They disgust me honestly because the way they operate and protect themselves from their own ops just makes every story a million times more muddy.
30:19 - Fair assumption given they were happy to boost his "exposure" of Magnetar though I guess 😂 Muta, Nux, Nexpo all called Magnetar a pedo on behalf of max with zero evidence, and NOT ONE OF THEM has supported Magnatar or fully addressed their part in destroying his life - it's so disgusting honestly
That's the thing that pisses me off about this whole situation!
Those guys are "leading the charge" on Max's exposure, but it's very clear that it's because they feel slighted due to personal transgressions rather than any actual harm Max did to his audience, his ex's he abused or victims of his stalking and harassment.
They have had YEARS and more of an opportunity than ANYONE on this platform to really hold Max accountable and it's not until they feel personally "bothered" that it can to a head.
@@m4dis_n Same. I feel like the false accusations against other creators led to this downfall more than the lack of evidence against Camden as well 🙄 Makes me EVEN MORE disgusted by how they treated Magnetar. There was actual evidence against Max, which was known and publicly available, and they still went along with HIS story. Haven't seen any clear public retraction, apology or support for Magnetar from Muta, Nux or Nexpo 👀 I honestly feel like this whole thing is just an extremely convenient situation being utilised as a massive sweep to bury Magnetar and Hailey. I get why Mika didn't want to go there, but I did have feeling from the research streams that this wouldn't really challenge the chosen narrative being pushed by Muta, Nick etc 🤣 NOT disappointed in her in any way, and this video was great 🤘 I'm just super deep into the lore hole, and ANYTHING involving commentary people will include optics play and secret behind the scenes discussion about framing imo 🙄
I feel the same way about the NightDocs situation too. There’s something about that whole deal that is just off.
@@imjustjk yeah... Didn't Max accuse Tommy C as well, or at least threaten to - and then PenguinZ0 (Charlie) as well... I think when Max went after those two that he started to look bad - NOT from the Camden stuff initially. The leaks were just the nail in the coffin imo 🙄 Nick is just as bad as the rest of them, not sure why he still has a reputation for being unbiased 🤣 But the true victims here, with ACTUAL evidence are getting no coverage. What a surprise 🤦♂️
@@imjustjk oh totally. There's so much that's weird about that situation. Like all of these dudes were friends with both of them and NOT ONE thought to confront or discuss Max's allegations with NightDoc directly until years later?
Great analysis. I've noticed as well how some people refer to any group as a cult, out of a superficial understanding of what that is. Just like those who heard about NPD or ASPD 2 years ago and now armchair-diagnose celebrities for clicks.
With regards to Xylie, however, she picks when to use her intelligence. She propagated the most absurd and embarrassing claims by a large channel (Sloan) not too long ago. Tinfoil would be a euphemism; one would have to be brainless to believe that story (which she isn't). So no, I don't think any principles are involved on her part.
Yeah the cult stuff is often disappointing. I don’t necessarily think she’s devoid of principle I think there are just a lot of different perceptions of situations online that can be unsatisfactory.
I agree, Xylie is most definitely not real 😂 She is the kind of person who will adapt her take dependent on who she's talking to imo.
I think she's hungry to join the clout club on merit as well as ingratiation (ie increase her sub count) she will leech off ANYONE and any situation. How does she know everyone and end up appearing all over the place? She ingratiates, that's how 🤷♂️ But it's ok, people can like who they like, no shade for that ❤ I could still throw her further than I'd trust her though 🤣
Wait Sloan had a cult? I’m so confused lol 😳
@@scarletsletter4466 No 🤣🤣🤣
@@scarletsletter4466 No, he doesn't (he might as well, as his audience is full of conspiracy nuts). I was referring to the absurdities Xylie is willing to push, to suck up to larger channels. Sloan accused Lauren Carter, Nick Carter's wife, of personally harassing and threatening him. He was being trolled. This was later substantiated by other trolls Sloan took at face value, pretending the Carters were definitely after him. The whole thing was insane. Xylie supported his baseless claims. I don't believe she's that stupid.
chatgpt isn't good for lawyering because it doesn't truly understand the questions asked, it's basically extremely advanced autocomplete which is why it needs to be trained by looking at a lot of sample documents. It's not truly answering the questions it just creates replies based on countless human experiences and hopes the person who gets the reply considers it passing.
Yeah a lawyer got their bar taken away recently for using AI
"If you go to police and say they say 'yay...! We're gonna" always kills me. Xylie is the gift that keeps on giving
A 2 hour long video from my favorite youtuber is just the treat I needed this week! Great work!
Hey Mika! Make sure you’re taking care of your mental health after such a heavy topic. You deserve to choose the topics you want to talk about, and if it’s too stressful please know the people that care about you wouldn’t want you to sacrifice your peace and sanity for a video. Great work as always, hope you’re going to have a nice break after all of this 🫶✨
I need a new topic still sadly but I’m doing fine!!
Minor point in the whole video but yes DFW means the Dallas Forth Worth metroplex area and yes locals often call it DFW which is the major airport there. It's pretty much the hub of north Texas and can refer to a huge range of places in the area.
I live in the US and I also wouldn’t be able to tell you what DFW means without the explanations from others!
Ok good that makes me feel better lowkey
im only partially through the video yet but im guessing its not Dallas-Fort Worth airport based on the context😢
Oh yeah, DFW referencing the Dallas-Fort Worth area as a whole is a VERY Texas/Oklahoma specific kinda thing, don't worry a bit :)
OOP im from philly what does that mean about me ☠@@grimmgoosegoose216
He doesn’t have kids right? Because if he did, I would be very worried for them.
He has dogs, which I am mildly worried for for the same kind of reasons
No but at one point he was in close proximity of a 9 year old and an 11 year old... And he lowkey almost made those kids those their dad once he moved out of their home 😬
I wanna preface this with a few things:
1. I'm not an expert. I don't have a degree in anything but I've been trained in research in the brief time I've spent in college. I read a lot of theology, cult and psychology texts. I can at best, speculate on a lot of this.
2. On the note of speculation, this is arguably the best put together timeline so far. So the following is based on everything you presented
3. As someone who was a mama max fan initially, but someone who takes journalistic integrity as serious as a heart attack, I do have many thoughts and feelings so please forgive me for the essay I'm about to write and likely edit and re-edit a few times :'3
On the cult bit: in theology there's something of a joke/truth that goes around. "Religion=cult+time." Think of it this way-- gen x'ers and millennial largely regard Scientology as a cult. But if you ask a lot of gen z'ers, you'd be surprised by how many say its a religion. This is because the older generations lived in a period where scientology didn't exist and wasn't recognized as a religion. The difference between a cult and religion is just how pervasive and long-lasting the beliefs are. That being said, not all cults are harmful in nature. There are groups that practice what we would consider cult behavior, and they don't really cause harm to members or society.
That all being said, I absolutely abhor the fact that Max took this fact and just fucking plastered it. Massacred it. Not to sound like a certified freak but there is an art of subtlety to creating and managing a cult. Max is about as subtle and convincing as the Mexican Aliens. Their is a level of manipulation involved that's soooo much more complex than he's implying. I hate that he doesn't even show that he knows what he's talking about and just expects us to take his word for these things. "Cult tactics" is, as far as I'm concerned and a lot of people with degrees and that're smarter than me, an umbrella term that can encompass a lot of things, so it's the responsibility of the person talking about these things to make sure *which* tactics are being discussed and *how* they're being deployed. He does neither, creating a lack of transparency. Likewise, my major gripe with this entire thing was the fact he always referred to his videos as documentaries. Documentary implies an expectation of truth. A *mockumentary* on the other hand, take a real life circumstance or event and makes shit up about a hypothetical story. So far, it's been proven Max's videos are mostly fake and I think that is fucking irresponsible at best and reprehensible at worst. Just for that alone he should be deplatformed and should've never worked on this, because he's now endangering the potential integrity of the case here.
Now, I wanna touch on Spencer's story. I will say, victim testimonies in terms of evidence are actually the weakest pieces of evidence in court because when you are a victim and you're trying to recall specific details, you're remembering the last time you remembered it and much like a game of telephone, it can become inconsistent. It's entirely possible that with all these eyes on her, and all this drama happening, Spencer misremembered certain aspects to her story. However, and this is my opinion now and it's based off of like. An unholy amount of forensic stories. There are too many details to her story for the entire thing to be faked. When you are lying, you wanna be vague because you're trying to slip under the radar. It makes no sense to give so much detail that if it were a lie ultimately wouldn't even help the lie in of itself. Details in a lie are meant to help sell it, not discount. That all being said, what may be happening is at best, she's genuinely misremembering some of the facts. At worst, she's intentionally muddling the water to make herself look more victimized. Which, even in the later case I wouldn't blame her necessarily because of the need for a Perfect Victim on the internet.
Which brings me to my next point: I love Muta's videos. Funny and sweet guy but my god. He deep throats the boot so fucking hard it hurts to see sometimes. He is, respectfully, paladin-coded: obnoxiously married to the idea of rule of law, regardless of how justified the law is. He also has a weird ego about his intelligence that I find distasteful. No one, and I do mean no one is immune to a cult, much less an impressionable 16 year old whose brain is not fully developed. Muta forgets that he isn't everyone. Not everyone grew up in an environment where they felt safe and loved, and it's entirely possible that Spencer's vulnerability made her a target to begin with. Famously, the Moonies cult has people like doctors, lawyers, and highly respected politicians involved in its ranks-- see Shinzo Abe. It's a mark of overconfidence to say, "I would have never joined a cult at 16," because you've never been in that situation before.
On the allegations-- I wanna break down the hash system for laymen (I was working for a comp sci degree previously). In the same way a hashtag is meant to look at all the posts under said hashtag, the FBI has a huge database of all the CSAM material they have EVER collected. They are also the biggest distributer of said content, not as a profiter, but in the name of honey-potting. So what I'm saying is, and what Muta is implying, is that if the megafolder was taken down because the hash was triggered, there was 100% previously tagged CSAM in that folder. It wouldn't have been deleted otherwise. Since Max is insistent though that it's evidence, what I think happened is Max may have either sent CSAM to a predator, or falsified evidence and included a real photo. Both scenarios are terrifying to think about, and will lead to serious legal consequences. Not might. Will.
My final point here is just harping on Max again but more on Max himself, and me reflecting as a former fan. This is important context: I'm a victim of grooming. A lot of people within his community are ALSO victims. And unfortunately because of the shame and uncomfortableness surrounding the topic, victims don't get opportunities to let their stories really be known. So when Max would make these videos, hundreds of people including myself would talk about these harrowing anecdotes opening up about these years of trauma. And the funniest thing is, that in of itself is a cult tactic: group trauma bonding by sharing all that raw emotion creates a bond of trust between victims and cult leader. Max would address himself as mama. He would establish himself as an infallible hero, calling us all his children. And when you're a vulnerable teenager, looking to open up about your fucked up experience, the guy who makes a 2 hour video about how much he cares seems like a safe space despite how crazy it sounds to an outsider.
Max is. Such. An asshole. Asshole is an understatement. I can't even fucking explain what he is in my mind now, but he is no longer the hero I believed he was. Even in his earlier "documentaries," he made it a point to demonstrate the "police's incompetence" in order to justify himself later in the video trying to meet up with a predator to fucking jump him, never mind the fact that the police will prioritize the assault case that obviously happened on camera over whatever evidence he claimed to give them. At this point, I'm almost convinced that was even faked. At this point, the only thing he can do that would be remotely okay, would be putting out a final address and then just leaving his platform. He doesn't understand the basics of law, psychology, criminology, or any other academic foundations someone absolutely needs if they're to take on things like this. He's never been trained and he himself has showcased that he is not only manipulative but potentially abusive, especially in regards to the way he interacts with the victims and his audience.
Note: I wrote this all in my notes app in like four hours because I was at work when I listened to this whole thing. There will be typos, this will be long, and I will ramble :'3
TL;DR: As a former fan and someone who's been a victim, Mamamax's channel created a hub for victims and he used this to create a cult of personality. His individual content is extremely harmful in its messaging and in the work that's implied to be done, and his videos are so chock full of flaws and partial truths that I genuinely think you could make a semester class' worth of videos on the cultic behaviors and the cult leader personality traits he shows.
Edit: I've seen a few people saying that his audience "must have weirdos who fantasize about this stuff," and while that was certainly a few of them, most of the audience were just hurt people who found the content cathartic. This man took advantage of a contentious topic that harms so many unnamed victims, created a space where they could express themselves, and took advantage of that. I'm sorry to say, but it feels victim blamey, to imply all of his audience are people to take a sick pleasure in this. I also want to add that the reason predator hunting content is popular is because of that reason specifically: its cathartic and its the least ethically questionable form of content exploitation. When its a kid making a video for a parent, its weird and its clearly exploitation. When its a guy filming himself confronting a predator, its funny, its interesting. But most of all-- he deserves it. Its not that the pleasure is from the tragedy, the pleasure comes from the comeuppance.
Wow, I read that whole thing. The hash details are so wild because I gathered that it just flagged similar content, not that it was 100% a match because of how little it was mentioned in other videos. Also thank you for the comment even with this length and I am happy that you liked the video even as someone that watched Max in the past.
@MikasRhetoric !!! I'm glad you enjoyed :3 but yeah, to break it down a bit more, in the same way posts with the same hashtag would be organized, the FBI has assigned random numbers to each image in their database, so any time those files get re-uploaded, that's how they get tipped off.
I've been a long time viewer of both your channels honestly, and would've enjoyed this regardless!!! I love your takes and your analyses. It's a breath of fresh air when I heard you quoting a book directly :3
Friend, many of your points are good and thoughtful, but you should never say “religion = cult + time” because that’s false. It might seem cute & edgy to say on social media, but it’s not consistent with how we define the term in the legal field. A cult, first & foremost, is a HIGH-CONTROL group. Religions like Buddhism, Hinduism, Christianity, etc, are not high control. Now, someone can start a cult by instituting strict rules and exerting control while claiming to follow one of these religions. But the religions themselves are not high-control. Their central tenets are about peace, love, acceptance & forgiveness.
Next, a cult is often led by a charismatic authoritarian figure. However, you can have a cult without a charismatic figure, but never without the high-control element. Charismatic figures and group size alone are never enough to be a cult. The lack of the high-control element is why Pewdiepie & Kpop fandoms are not cults. A group of fans could start a high-control faction within a fandom however, and indeed some smaller groups do arise this way.
@scarletsletter4466 I mean, you can easily argue that there are sects of Christianity that qualify as "high control." There are tons of baptist and other Christian churches that will isolate and take advantage of its members. It's why a lot of people don't really like prosperity or charismatic preachers-- because they're essentially cults where the preacher is holding the potential of hell over the members' heads if they don't give up their money. That being said, prosperity style gospel and charismatic preaching is an extremely new phenomena that's come about through televangelism. And in the same way those televangelists get congregations, one could argue it mirrors the influencer dynamic. This is the main framework I was coming from when I wrote that :0
I mostly used that phrase as a gross simplification cause, yknow, it's a youtube comment. I'm also not really an expert, and a solid 30-40% of my comment is speculation :'3, but I get your point. I apologize.
Finally, a vid on this that I might be able to sit through. Thanks Mika 😊
Currently listening to this while I work on my research assignment lol, I feel so doubly educated 😋 thanks Mika!!!!!
I feel like Spencer is the victim of something, and Camden probably did some form of abuse to her and others, but it’s VERY obvious she is also making shit up to add drama and more stuff to it.
Watched this twice because it’s so good🙌. Thanks for breaking everything down, for your analyses, and for the book recommendations!
I just don't trust Spencer because, by her own words, she seemed to have been like "second in charge" of everything, or at least saw herself as that, and now she's here once again second in charge of the same girls that were supposedly being abused? Seems weird, seems fishy. There shouldn't be a "public figure" of this case at all, but it's just so weird that the girl whose story seems to be nothing but the most tragic over the top events and was so high up in this group is now the main focus of everything.
She also talks so much like all of the girls I grew up with who loved to exaggerate their lives to seem worse/more fantastical than they were for sympathy.
Honestly, the fact that supposedly every victim advacy group and every law enforcement group has brushed off multiple reports from multiple people kind of tells me there's nothing there for anyone to go off of. Not saying nothing happened, but if they don't have anything to show it did, then no one can do anything to hime. They're better off seeking recovery counselling instead.
I don’t need to watch the whole two hours to know that this will be a good one. Thanks so much for another video Mika ✨❤
DFW is definitely dallas-fort worth TX, it's also like a major airport in TX but that's how lots of people from casually refer to the area
It is The Worst airport tho (-__-), if love wasnt so hard to get to, I'd fly through there every time XD
Thank you for making in depth content even though you are busy. Your takes are always insightful and valuable
I've never heard of this man before, but I really enjoyed listening to your deep dive over him. I can tell you did a lot of research and I'm sure you're glad that you can finally stop thinking about this weirdo
The theatrics of a serious topic from Max actually made me think Camden wasn't even real. So little evidence or proof and Max propping up on the the survivors (who knew max since they were young) with their own youtube page doesn't help lend to making it believable.
I CANNOT TAKE HIM SERIOUSLY WITH THAT VOICE OMGGGGG
Imagine having ever thought it was attractive, I’m so ashamed 😭
Thank you for making this video Mika I can't imagine all the time it took
I don’t want to think about the time to revenue ration
I thought Muta was in Hamilton, but here nor there. The one major difference between these three, especially Max, and LioCpnvoy is he doesn't deal in mega drive/cumulative online mega files, he actually gathers the victim's evidence, with help and f the victims and actually helps them to turn evidence into victims'/survivors local law enforcement branch(es) to get the legal processes, at least on the police's side, started. He also helps the victims break the grip(s) their victimizers have over them.
Yeah I think Lio is also an adult, married & mid-30s with a job, so he has a lot less of his ego tied up in this sort of thing. Max made it his whole identity, which is problematic, to say the least
@@scarletsletter4466 Late 30's, I'm actually his age. But yeah, he doesn't make it his 24/7 with hopes that videos and doxxing without helping the survivors make their reports to police and turning in applicable evidence to help the allegations and potential turnout of the preds being arrested and potentially tried.
And to clarify, I'm not suggesting Lio or any one in Senate resorts to doxxing.
I’m very glad you did this video. I’ve seen a multitude of videos about him, but not one of the ones I clicked on had any explanation of who he is and I’d also never heard of him or his channel. I’m still a little confused what it’s all about, but I’m a lot less confused than I was before!
If it helps I’m still a bit confused even after all of this
@@MikasRhetorichonestly, it does! I watched part of your stream with the Spencer video. If there’s something I do know, if that story is true, this guy is very far from the person who should be dealing with it.
I was so excited to see this premiering while I was on lunch. Now I’m home and watching on the big screen. 😎💖💕
Yay!!
Happy Valentine’s Mika! Sending you love! You put so much effort into this video and I hope you take some time for you
ALSO, this may not have come up in the evidences against Max, because a lot of the dudes seems to not be talking about the fact Max watched h3ntai with kids in it? and reviewed it.
I think that segment you made at the end with an explanation to the average person is really good. I’ve been watching videos explaining this situation while at work and my coworkers have seen them. When they ask what it’s about, it really puts it into perspective just how bizarre it all is when you’re explaining it out loud to someone who isn’t terminally online lmao
My average day on UA-cam is seeing a thumbnail from a creator I like (or a creator the algorithm assumes I might like), asking "Who the fuck is this?" about the subject, then saying "Well, time to learn about yet another shitbag with whom I share this planet." Sometimes the "who" is a "what" and the "shitbag" is a "shitty thing."
This was well made, thank you!
Thank you 🩷🩷
I forgot to comment when I watched this a couple days ago, so I’m just coming back to say that your video is a amazing
Your videos are fantastic and well made
I AM SO. EXCITED. THANK YOU MIKA.
1:17:04 I think he was moreso trying to illustrate the point that there’s a reason a lot of people are really questioning this story because of how it’s being presented. it’s not just that it’s a cult, but the particular framing of the cult. it’s worthwhile for them to point out that the “cult” backstory is a huge factor behind why no one is taking any of max’s presentation seriously.
11:36 - he said if he's really honest with himself it's a love of ultra-violence once 😂 He also said that helping victims was just a cherry on the cake 🤮
I can finally stop pretending like his videos aren't the cringiest larpiest videos I've ever seen. This whole predator-hunting thing has just been a vehicle to fuel UA-camr's egos for so long now, it is rare to find anyone actually doing any real justice. Especially those that also focus A LOT on the predators themselves and the disgusting details of the specific crimes tend to be really sensationalist. A lot of victims don't want that out there. For anyone wondering: if you want to help victims of trafficking or CSA, do not donate to a UA-camr. Find a real organization that focuses SPECIFICALLY on victim recovery, funding, housing, mental health help, monetary/mental health support in court if they choose to pursue legal action, etc. Of course, getting the perp off the streets is important, but any org or person that focuses on "the hunt" over the victim is usually gonna be bullshit. Our justice system needs to actually focus on prevention and victims' services over anything else. Look for orgs that specify that they are focused on these things. I found Muta and Nick's videos to be informative, Muta's more than nick, nick seems to be way more into dunking on his former friend (understandable, but not exactly helpful). Not even going into his problematic past. But I found their ultimate trust in law enforcement a bit naive at best. We know the stats on law enforcement taking any SA seriously. Like I understand the sentiment they were trying to express, that Max is not an expert on these issues and he is not the right person to turn to for help, but I also understand not going to the police. That's why I always go back to being mostly victim-focused. Stay safe out there, yall! Be very wary of the people you follow and look up to.
I love hearing you talk ❤
Spencer went to school in my school district in DFW, which is Dallas-Fort Worth (and the airport is also in the area). I never heard of her and I'm pretty sure I'm older than her, but it's weird as hell that someone from my school district as a kid is involved with this.
Also, I love your videos on rhetoric. I was an editor of an academic law journal in law school, and have been watching your vids for a while now. They scratch the academic itch in my brain. Regarding using ChatGPT as a legal source, Chat GPT literally makes up fake case law as evidence if you ask it legal questions. You cannot use it for legal advice. Why would we have actual lawyers if a computer could to it?
But...but...ChatGPT understands the legal system! Max said so, so it •mUsT• be true! 😂😂😂
IKR? What kind of person thinks "I need some legal advice...I'll ask ChatGPT what to do!"??!!? 🤦🏻♀️🤦🏻♀️🤦🏻♀️
Every aspect of Max's videos are an indictment on his supposed goals and values. The cringe voice modulation and horror-core aesthetic are so deeply unserious and disrespectful to the topics being discussed, if not downright harmful by way of making a very real-life scenario elevated to the fantastical level of fictional horror, thus blurring the lines between the two. The fact that his content so heavily mirrors that of creators like Nightmind -who cover fictional ARGs and horror games - is a pretty obvious display of that issue.
On top of that, everything from the overly grand way Max writes even his emails, to his inability to not constantly describe himself as a filmmaker in his videos exposes how this predator hunting content is nothing more than a vanity project to make himself look good, and the videos have no aim of actually centering or helping victims. That's not even touching upon how unsafe and downright sabotaging it is for amateurs to even be delving into this kind of work...
His main motivation seems to be a lot darker to me... He stalked Hailey for 10 years and refused to let her leave that hotel room that night. She was on and bled into the bed because he wouldn't let her go get tampons... There's another leaked called with his actual ex Oliva as well where he admits to emotional and psychological abuse, as well as smearing her as crazy to his friends (Muta, Nux and Nexpo reported on her "accusations" and wholly wrote her off as the classic clout chasing whore who was "gleeful" according to Muta... No one wants to talk about her now though do they. Mika's description of the "Dramatic recreations" was mild - that actual video is a simulated child R of a trafficked girl chained to a wall and surrounded by oozing condoms 😳 There's a clip of him saying "if I'm truly honest with myself, it was... a love of ultra violence" and that "helping YOU (ie victims) was just the cherry on the cake". His commentary friends have been sweeping for his creepiness for years 😂 His main mistake was accusing Charlie of being a pedo for not promoting his wolf cult story. Everyone was cool with him doing it to Magnatar but Penguin was a step too far as was bothering Nicholas DeOrio... Muta COVERED Max's accusations against Magnatar with LESS evidence than there was against Camden. Magnatar is still trying to fundraise to take Max to court for the defamation AND abuse because Max did this to get to Hailey whos still his gf. Muta hasn't even given that fundraiser a shout-out. The Max lore is a lot, it's genuinely insane...
ok i’m rewatching this video and i just realized max doing the leggings thing is also what another predator hunter guy on youtube named anxiety wars does or has done in the past i have nothing else to say about that just two adult men putting on leggings
thank u for the vid!!! your research is astonishing
i've cringed soooo hard during mamamax clips
Yeah I hated watching the videos
somebody probably already did confirm this, but yes, DFW refers to the Dallas/Fort Worth area, and DFW airport is in that area! i guess the international version would be like saying you’re from london even if you’re like an hour away from london proper? dallas and fort worth are two of texas’s biggest cities and since they’re relatively close (1hr apart) and it’s one of the most populated places in texas aside from the austin and houston areas, people who live anywhere within an hour or two of either city generally say they live in DFW since it’s more likely to be recognized than saying “oh i’m from paris (texas)” or “she lives in waxahachie”
1:36:30 I just want to say you're inspirational....you do your due diligence even when it's hard on you emotionally (though as you've said many times, and it's something I learned from you: many times we CANNOT leave behind our emotions and expecting we always will be able to leave emotions out of things is silly. We can do our best to not let them influence things they should not...even judges have things get in the way and it's damn hard. Note:speaking of judges, a judge may WELL be emotional about a given defendant but as long as there isn't UNDUE influence/bias it's OK.)
1:40:19 😑 well, this is WHY crime series do state "there are dramatizations etc" and even the more ughh...unbearable,tawdry ones manage not to go where Mama Max did...)
Thank you 😭🩷🩷🩷