How to Convert Yeast Dough Recipes to be Made With Sourdough Starter
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- Опубліковано 21 тра 2022
- I realized that the ratio of yeast dough to sourdough recipes on my channel is quite unfair, so in this video we will learn how to convert any recipe to a naturally leavened one. The calculations are similar to my straight dough to yeast preferment conversion. But I have added some extra info here. It is worth watching both videos however because I go into more detail about the types of preferments when it comes to hydration levels.
Also, check out the preferment guide for even more in-depth information.
Baker’s percentage and hydration are two more concepts that you must know in order to be comfortable with converting recipes. In this video we will concentrate more on the calculations. I take it that if you already have a starter. If not, then check out my starter guide in the Sourdough Bread playlist.
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I have converted my bagel and cinnamon roll recipes. I only kept my hydration percentages the same and both have turned out well.
Perfect timing. I've been playing with this exact thing for about 2 weeks. Bread has been edible, but not ideal. I'll test in my kitchen in the morning. I have a super aggressive starter that I just love putting into everything.
I always start with the desired dough weight and use bakers math to get the various amounts. To keep the levain math easy I keep the added flour and water at 1:1 (100%) hydration. Typically use 1:3:3 for an overnight ferment to be ready in the morning. Since you are deducting the total water and flour in the levain from the original recipe anyway it doesn't really matter as it won't affect the final hydration.
I love that you’ve named yours. My starter is named Harold.
This is exactly what I needed thank you. Will definitely have to watch a couple times and take notes. I always love the exit, there are few things better in life than butter and salt on fresh bread!
What wonderful information! Thank you.
👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼 Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! I’ve been waiting for this video!
These information are extremely helpful. Thank you
I am working on converting a sourdough cinnamon roll recipe to commercial yeast. This is very helpful, thank you! Your loaves look wonderful by the way!
I am hands down a Sourdough Baker versus a Yeast Baker. Something about the whole process that endears me... Since yeast is, by historical standards, a very recent invention (mid-19th Century), all bread beforehand had been done with sourdough or were simply unlevened. Thus, when I find a recent recipe for traditional breads, for Challah for instance or une Tourte de Seigle, which integrate yeast, I know that it must be feasible to make it with sourdough levain instead of the yeast.
I'm looking forward to using this in practice! Thanks for all your great work and cheers!
Thank you for another awesome video, Charlie! Your channel is by far the best baking channel around imho. The format and editing style is top notch. By this point, many UA-camrs would have already traded in their hands for high-priced gadgets and transformed into the "RolexBaker."
Cheers Alex! 😁
Good information. Thanks.
I will have to revisit this again. I have a yeasted recipe that goes through 3 stretch and folds with each cycle doubling in size. Total time takes about 3 hours. When converting it to sourdough I find that ferment isn't long lived enough to get through 3 cycles and, as you say in this video, the dough gets much looser, sort of like it's over proofed. There seem to be limitations on how much total fermentation time I can get from starter vs SAF Red yeast.
Thanks from Hong Kong! I learnt a lot in bread baking from your channel. Great!
🤩
You are brilliant! This is what exactly ai wanted to experiment. .. thanks for tour all bread science leg work 🙏👍
✌😎
Been growing a sourdough starter for about a week now, and really wanted to try my pizza dough with it. Soon as it's ready, I'll give this method a try!
Pizza is a good one since it doesn’t require a ton of rise.
SO much science to bread making. I appreciate you breaking it down like this. I'm definitely going to have to come back and watch this video again on 50% speed to make sure I catch everything ;)
Keep up the great work!
Yoooo thanks for this!
just what i was waiting for
Thanks Charlie! I understood where you were going with it but didn't completely follow the mathematics. I'm sure I can figure it out when I do it, and now I saw you used a Poolish to make the starter, which is one aspect that threw me lol. I can watch it again if need be. I was surprised you could use entirely whole wheat flour in the starter, but thinking about it, why not? 👍
Im japanese
learning so much from your channnel
🙏
Thank you sooo much for the information! Could you use this same method for a dough that has for example butter and eggs?
You can find separate videos about those ingredients in the Principles of Baking playlist ✌
You should probably make a series/playlist called "MathBaker." 😉
I don't really bake but I find all of this information quite satisfying to learn. 😀
Haha yeah! You really need to slap and fold the ... out of that dough 😂
I started my first sourdough starter yesterday, 1 or two bubbles formed already, and it rose a tiny tiny bit, hopefully mine will come
Pretty fast, but if not then oh well, all part of the journey 💪
Thanks you
Amazing! Clear and easy to understand instructions! May I just ask too Im new in sourdough making. So the 9g levain you mean is 4.5 water and flour right? So the starter in that levain is how much? If 4.5flour and 4.5water? Technivally how much is the weight in grams of start? Thank you.
The leaven is made from the 9g starter plus fresh water and flour. The starter contains 4.5 water and 4.5 adding up to 9g flour because I keep my starter at a hydration of 100%.
I would love to see this as a spreadsheet with all of the calculations. Enter the values for a commercial yeast recipe and it spits out the conversion for starter.
Just thinking about excel gives me a headache 🤣
@@ChainBaker I've prepared a spreadsheet, but need confirmation if the calculation is correct, then you can send to whoever need it, just let me know where to send it.
ps: if you have other calculations, let me know, I'm new to baking and still learning, doing this help my learning.
Did the spreadsheet work? Would you mind sharing it? :)
How I would do it :
Yeast version (example)
100 flour
72 water
1.8 salt
0.8 yeast
Sourdough version
Let's say 20% innoculation and starter at 100% hydratation
flour = 100 / 1.1= 91
starter = 9 (remaining flour) + 9*1 (starter hydratation) =18
water = 72-9 = 63
Feels simpler to me, it's also really simple to account for different starter innoculations amount and hydratations.
hey, whats starter inncoulation? also howd u get the 1.1?
@@Sridarsh I'll assume you're familiar with bakers maths
It just means 20% starter. (so pretty standard amount)
The problem is, if you were to take 100g of flour and 20g of starter, 20/120 would be 16.7% not 20%
If the starter has an hydratation of 100%. It means equal part of water and flour.
The relative amount of flour in the starter to the rest of the flour is 10% hence the division by 1.1
@@user-so6fu1ir3v ah okay, i saw a vid from jacob burton on the conversion and understood that better, he uses a similar but diff method, at least it made me understood as i am kinda bad at math lol. But thank you anyways man.
its so confusing for people like me who hate numbers but love baking❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️
I'm sure you'll get it! :)
I f*cking love this channel.
Whoa, chill. It's bread. Relax.
I meant I f*cking love this channel
😆
Great information. Now tell us what the name of that little water pitcher is please. I didn’t see it on Amazon
You can't buy that separately. It came from a mini coffee press.
I usually just take the same recipe same amount of preferment. and add starter to that preferment so I might have slightly more once the starter is added... but I don't find it makes a huge difference. for example in the 200 gram poolish example I might end up with 218 grams of poolish in the end (100g water+100g flour+10-20 starter (depending on the season).
Some exceptions, when I make ciabatta, foccacia, ... I have a spreadsheet for those, basically using the method you used above.
the total flour percentage I would use in the pre ferment; using a percentage of pre ferment is as you say is more maths; I was never good at maths so seeing it in baking is daunting but at the same time is useful for consistency. using the ratios is sensible but where it gets convoluted is when you add them then divide with the total weight = like what is going on there? intuitively for me that is harder. the more i use the formulas I can see that it will make sense, like all things there is that learning curve and for me it is these numbers.
Btw I just used your recipe for the Cinnamon Rolls but I used pre ferment Biga 3 days old with 100 grams flour and 75 grams water (not sure if that is Biga) then I mixed the main dough I used a ratio of 200 grams of flour half All Purpose and half Bread Flour making 17 small size rolls not the big cake (this all being the first time I baked ever this recipe). Initially during the first fold the dough was sticky but after the 2nd proof it was less sticky. it did rise a lot for the last ferment but I lost the puff after they cooled down I think because I kept them in the baking square tin but the texture was like donuts it was delicious - thanks.
Great informative video Charlie! btw any thoughts about French flour - more specifically T55? Recently came across it and it’s a real shaggy mess. I understand the French don’t base it on protein but ash, ranging T45 to T65 for white flour, and over T80 For spelts and wholemeal. But the end product is very soft and fluffy
As you said, the type of the flour only depends on how refined it is
You can have T55 that is really weak and made for crepes / cakes and such, along with really strong T55 (farine de gruau for example) that is made for brioche pizza etc.
In normal supermarkets T55 is mainly cake/all pupose flour.
@@user-so6fu1ir3v interesting…the one I was recommended in using was Moul-bie T55 patisserie blanche (soft) although the website doesn’t list it for bread making. Found that I had to keep adding flour until it is ‘kneadable’. Just seems impossible even if I autolyse for at least 1hr, lightly wet hands, slap & fold the s*** out of it, etc.
I have never used the different types. I just use the supermarket flour that they sell here. Only one type from the same brand :)
After watching your video on yudane and tangzhong and now this video, I was wondering if you've ever done a sourdough bread with yudane or tangzhong. I would be interested in finding out what difference, if any, results from making sourdough bread with yudane or tangzhong or using sourdough in a milk bread.
I might try that some time :)
Hi, I have a question.
How can you convert the flour in recipes? I'm asking because I just got a rey sourdough starter and wanted to start baking with it. Have a great day and thank you for this great video
You can make a wheat leaven with your rye starter easily. Just use a little of the starter and add wheat flour and water. If you want to convert wheat flour recipes to rye, then that is not so simple. They are very different, so you may just swap a percentage. But if you want to use 100% rye, then just find or write a new recipe instead of trying to convert one :)
I was literally wondering about this a day before you uploaded it. Have you thought about doing a video about how different dough enhancers affect the dough? Such as citric acid, alcohol and others
I am planning to film videos about vitamin C and lecithin soon.
@@ChainBaker A friend told me that some people add rakija (Serbian/Bulgarian spirits) to their dough and it somehow helps because of the alcohol
What about breads that don't already include a prefermented? Can we substitute starter into there effectively too
Definitely. Take some of the flour and water from the recipe and make a preferment out of those by adding some sourdough culture.
Do you know how long l can leave a preferment for? I have one that’s nearly 3 weeks old
It will make your bread rise for about a day or two. Any longer than that you will have to feed it again to make it active before using.
I had to listen to the % of flour vs. % of starter part a few times to grasp the difference, only to realise that I do it both ways. :)
"I think it's easier to make a larger quantity of sourdough starter when you have to wait overnight for it to ferment, and then in the morning, add the remaining flour, which is less than half of the total amount, along with water and salt. All of this then ferments for two hours, and the bread is ready for baking. I only use sourdough yeast for making bread, so this was important to me because it greatly simplifies and speeds up the preparation."
Thanks for the great information. Have a sourdough starter developing now. Named it "Charlie" in your honor. I moved Charlie from one jar to another at the last feeding and I don't think he liked it, because he stopped growing. Is that a possibility?
Wow, I feel honoured! That is so cool 😃 The jar change should not affect him much. I'm sure that with a couple of feedings he will become active again. Perhaps leave him unfed for 48 hours and see what happens. Then go back to the regular schedule.
@@ChainBaker Thanks very much. Really looking forward to putting him to work when he's ready.
I wish you would give the American equivalent because I suck at math and trying to figure everything out! I have starter that's ready to go and I really want to make some things but have no clue where to start. I have used my discard for a few recipes but now I want to really get into it.
Every one of my recipes has metric and imperial units. Check out the Sourdough Bread playlist for plenty of ideas for both regular bakes and discard.
I've been wondering this exact same thing the past week and ended up with the conclusion that levain should be 10-30% of the total dough (as in preferments), but what about fermentation time? In yeasted breads (8g dry yeast in 1kg) I do around 2-3hs block fermentation (with folds in between sometimes) +1 final fermentation hour (or just cold fermentation for a couple of days), does levain take more time to ferment a bread?
Levain pretty much doubles the fermentation time.
@@ChainBaker don't know why but i thought it was slower, probably because of the weeks it takes to make the starter haha thanks!
Too much math!!! Makes my head ache! I've been experimenting with preferment and had pretty decent success. I enjoy the enhanced flavor and texture I get. But mostly I'm just "shooting from the hip" with the ratios. Haven't made anything my family and neighbors won't eat, though - yet. 😀 I did a preferment batch this week with no sugar in it (you did a vid on this). My teenage daughter called it white-white (not a typo) bread as the crust did not have the rich brown color she is accustomed to seeing She ate it none the less... without complaint.
How about the other way around? Convert sourdough recipe to yeast dough? Biga/pate fermente/etc possibly?
That would be a lot easier. Just use the given amounts of flour and water and add 0.1% yeast :)
Question... how can I use a potato yeast in place of instant yeast ? I was told I could also use some potato yeast in place of sourdough starter, is this true?
I've not had any experience with it. But as far as I know it is another kind of starter which can be used for the same purpose. I'm not sure how much is needed and how one would look after it and refresh it. Perhaps I will explore it in the future :)
What if the original yeast dough doesn't contain pre-ferment?
Then you can use a modified version of this ua-cam.com/video/rRV3O68r944/v-deo.html
it's day 7 of making starter according to your recipe and still no activity. It smells like it is fermenting but it never rise even once. barely any bubble . Is it possible that the natural yeast don't like this flour?
Try not skipping a feeding and seeing what it's like after 48 hours. Perhaps then it will start moving.
@@ChainBaker I fed it daily at 10am. It's very runny evenhough I use 1:1 ratio. it has a sweet and sour smell though so it looks like it's doing something but I'm not sure. Will keep on trying this one. It's my 6th batch so far.
Perhaps it is fermenting too actively then. Try a 1:10:10 ratio and see if there is a difference
@@ChainBaker I read your mind! lol. I just did that right before you commented it since I reread your starter recipe so I think I'd give it a try. THANX!
Thanks for this very informative video. I have never tried to convert yeast to SD or vice versa, but this video shows that it is now an option. I do enjoy your "math" segments! Many thanks! 😀
Everyone, we are getting closer and closer to 100K. Please share photos of your bakes on your social media channels (mention ChainBaker's YT channel, of course!) and sign up for "Charlie's Baking Buddies" - the link is in the description (click "READ MORE"). Go "Team Chainbaker". 📣📣📣
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Too much math for me😁😁
My sourdough bread turns out great!
0:15 This little jar was nutella jar? :D
It is! The perfect starter jar ;D
I make bread at home. Not so much sour dough. i have a problem, where after i bake my bread it comes out beautiful. I let it cool for 2 to 3 hours, then put it in a freezer bag. I don"t put it in the freezer. But next day the bread is not crispy anymore, its soft as, even though it tastes really good. I use 400 gram all purpose flour, 50 to 60 gram of fine semolina flour and 280 gram of water. i usually let it sit for 1 hour intervals 4 times, just giving it a stretch, pull and fold. Then i prove it in my bread tin. So why is my bread soft on the outside ?. its great toasted lol
It will soften and go stale no matter what you try. That is just how it is. The crust will be at its crispiest on the day of baking. From that point it will start staling.
I'm new into sourdough baking. I'm sure this is a great way to calculate but this confused me.
I normally just choose a percentage of the total flour that I want to use in the leaven and go from there.
@@ChainBaker oh ok, I got it. I learned about the bakers percentage from you, I will figure this out too. Thank you much.
You've explained everything nicely but what's crucial you haven't, and that is: how much % of sourdough starter is equivalent to 1% of dry yeast or 3% of fresh yeast. We know that the ratio of dry yeast to fresh yeast is 1:3. This means dry yeast is three times stronger than fresh yeast. The main question is what is the ratio of dry yeast to sourdough starter, or how much stronger is dry yeast compared to sourdough starter? Thank you very much.
There is no way of telling. Starters vary in strength. The hydration of the starter and the fermentation time of it are such massive variables that there would be no sure way of giving exact numbers. How much starter you use is also up to personal preference.
The question is posed regarding the speed of dough rising, to achieve the same rising speed, how much sourdough starter should be used compared to instant yeast. This is sought in order to match the rising speed when using instant yeast.
@Tree-Jed-Ant-Ri depends on your starter. I have no idea of how well it ferments. Only you can work that out.
@@ChainBaker
How much experience do I have with sourdough starters a maximum of 3 or so times, and my starter is currently at that strength. The question was about the quantity of secondary starter or leaven in relation to the amount of flour, to achieve a similar or approximate rising speed. For instance, if you use 10 grams of dry yeast per kilogram of flour, how much leaven do you need per the same amount of flour to achieve the same or similar rising speed? Of course, taking into account that from the kilogram of flour, you'll need to subtract a portion for the leaven and hydration.
I am still trying to understand the explanation... 😂
You'll get there ;D
OMG! I am NEVER going to deal with all those numbers. I'm sure it I the RIGHT way, but Phew! too much math. for me.
You don't need to. Towards the end of the video I do give a simpler option ✌️
Hello you are making exelant job but you are talking very very fast
you mast aderstant that not oll the viewers speak so good English even the subtleties they are change very quickly
Please try to understand our problem
Keep going the very nice job you are doing
That is why I always write a blog post for each video which you can find in the link below the video :)
That is far too complex. Best to just have a ready made recipe here, or a spreadsheet program. Hmmmm, a spreadsheet. Wonder if one exists?
I have a spreadsheet that contains all my standard recipes in bakers math format. Makes it super easy to convert to any desired dough weight. I include a section that shows preferment options and will be adding one for yudane
If you have those, then good for you! :)
This is too much, I am just going to eyeball it 😝
Wtf dude. Just tell me how much starter equals a teaspoon and a tablespoon....
If it's that simple then I'm sure someone else will tell you
Extremely overcomplicated
I did explain an easier way too. It's your choice how you do it.