I’d argue willingness has nothing to do with it. If you’re naturally smart you can make it happen with some effort. If you’re an idiot you’ll get weeded out in Gen Chem and end up making trash UA-cam videos like this clown
@@yeeyee378 Willingness has a lot to do with it. Lot of people are smart but aren't willing to put up with the crazy hours of residency, high student loan debt, and waiting so long to finally receive a paycheck. Rather than put up with all they'd prefer to make money at an earlier age, work reasonable hours, and not go into debt.
@@aahsimovieprojects At the expense of not having the same skillset and knowledge level of an MD/DO. There is a trade off, hence when MD/DO's dont take it lightly when an NP tries to say they have the same job roles and they are the same level as an MD/DO.
@@sfujimoto14 Oh for sure, I would never argue that an NP/PA has anywhere near the same level of knowledge as an MD/DO. It's just not always true that someone goes that route simply because they couldn't get in. I graduated with a 3.5 from a top 20 private, and while MD would be a stretch I could have easily gotten in DO. I chose Psych NP just because going to DO would have taken me 6+ extra years to become a psychiatrist and would set me back 500k in total debt by the time I could start paying off the loans. Instead I graduated with zero loan debt, and am earning a six figure paycheck years earlier. It's an easier route with certain tradeoffs, but getting accepted wasn't a concern.
MD/DO : 4 year undergraduate + premed prereqs (if not a bio/chem major) -MCAT Gap year (usually filled with research,shadowing, volunteer,) 2 years of HEAVY basic sciences generally 16 credit terms. Step 1 (currently the most important exam to decide residency...this will change when pass/fail go into effect) 2 years clerkship+electives (rotations in core specialties) with specialty specific shelf exams. Step 2 (also important exam) Match into residency. Work 3-4 years in residency Become an attending... As a first year you come out of school with over 5000 clinical hours two years of extensive basic sciences (on top of your undergrad) and rotations in specialties lasting 6-12 weeks each. NP 3 year associate degree with prereqs (statistics, A/P 1 & 2, microbiology) 1 year fluff BSN 2-3 year MSN/DNP 35% interesting, 65% fluff. some MSN/DNP do not require even a year of RN experience.... I am an RN (with my BSN) turning MD.
@@monalletinie143 fluff is rudimentary APA papers, and discussion posts. RN-BSN programs like to mask how easy it is with intense sounding concepts. It is a joke. Your RN program will be challenging. Time management, didactics mixed with clinicals. Coming form normal undergrad, some students have issues shifting into this academic workload. But this doesn't hold a candle to becoming an MD/DO (regarding academic rigor, stamina, and time). If your heart is in nursing then you will love it. If your heart is in medicine but you choose nursing to become a nurse practitioner you will be sorely disappointed.
@@AZ-wg3eg that makes a lot of sense, i'm a first semester nursing student. And it's extremely difficult, and i love studying it, but i agree it's not as difficult as med school. In my country this works different, med school is a 6 year undergrad program here, so i could still change and aply to med school instead. So idk if nursing is the right path for me, i feel like my heart is in it, but i always find myself wishing i could become a doctor instead. But i feel like my reasons to choose medicine are not good enough, i like it mostly for the sense of prestige and accomplishment it brings, because even a well studied nurse practitioner will never be seen as a doctor. While my reasons to choose nursing are more realistic, i actually enjoy the tasks and roles of nurses more. So i feel sorely disappointed over choosing nursing, but that doesn't mean medicine is for me. Sorry for this completely unnecessary rant. I guess what i'm trying to say is i agree with you somehow, but in the end it's only a good decision for some people and not everyone stuck between both decisions. There's a lot of factors.
@@monalletinie143 Even if your decision to become a physician is based on ego, it is important to understand that you know yourself better than anyone else. If you know that 10 years from now as a nurse practitioner you feel constantly inadequate, wishing you went for your MD/DO, and longing to be the leader...then cut your losses and chase your dream. As a physician you will be able to lead research, lead an interdisciplinary healthcare team of the patient, coordinate care, and know you have taken the path many do not want to go. Everyone's situation is different, and at the end of the day like I said, only you know yourself and what decision to make.
Your numbers are misleading. Even if the average RN experience is 5-15 years, it still isn’t a requirement of becoming an NP. People on the MD path usually spend a considerable amount of hours in clinical settings to even apply for medical school in the first place and you fail to mention that. Your numbers of exposure are biased towards NP.
I tried to be as objective and non-biased as I could be, but I am human and it would be ignorant to assume there is no bias. However - I was not trying to be misleading. I state in the video (and multiple times throughout the accompanying article) that RN experience varies, there is no minimum amount for most schools, and that it does not equate to provider education/training. Even so, RN experience can play a large role in a new NPs competence. While I didn't mention healthcare exposure or shadowing hours required for most med schools, I did mention it in my blog post linked above. However, I do not equate shadowing or even medical scribe experience to formal RN on-the-job experience - but that is just my opinion. Thank you for pointing it out - I will be sure to include it in any future relevant videos!
@@WillKellyNP "However, I do not equate shadowing or even medical scribe experience to formal RN on-the-job experience - but that is just my opinion." Equating nursing hours to resident training is not equivalent either.
Nurses. Nurse practitioners. Physicians. Been through em all and I always go back to my NP preferably. I wonder if its just me or they are more personable. Idk. Just brainstorming.
Rouge But Here lol hopefully this doesn’t happen to you, but when you have more life threatening issues, you want to go the physician route. Or at least an NP under strict supervision of a physician
Bob cooked at McDonalds for 15 years and took a 4 month cooking class at his local community college. Bruce trained as a chef in multiple countries for 4 years, worked as a sous chef for 7 years and is now an executive chef at a 5 star restaurant. Bob made a video about how he is almost as skilled as Bruce.
THANK YOU!!!! DOCTORS WORK YEARS TO MASTER MEDICINE BUT LETS LET NP's THINK THEY ARE JUST AS GOOD AS DOCTORS WITH THEIR ONLINE DEGREE THEY GOT IT 16 MONTHS.
I’m married to an MD. I know several mid-level providers (yes, I know they are called APPs now). An NP is not an MD, while respect that community, as well as PAs, this growing movement to pretend that you are equivalent to an MD needs to end - east is east and west is west and never the two shall meet.
Joey Moree this video does not imply that NPs are equivalent to physicians. Different professions, different levels of education/training, but similar roles in healthcare (dx, treatment, etc) - often with NPs collaborating with physicians. I am very happy to collaborate with mine :)
@@WillKellyNP saying similar health roles is saying both are equivalent . I fear in next coming decades USA will have only these psuedo doctors. At one point america was considered top in physician education. No other nation allows shortcuts to NP training like USA does.
This is super misleading to anyone who doesn’t work in health care. Most people pursuing NP/CRNA don’t have 5 years experience as a nurse. They even have direct nurse to NP now. On top of that, 5-15 years experience as a nurse is just not that conducive to medicine. Why? Because those aren’t 5-15 years spent developing treatment plans, learning about disease and pathophys, treating patients and following their course, learning from treatment mistakes, learning from other physicians. It’s 5-15 years following orders, and it’s typically the same orders involving the same patient population because most people work on the same type of unit for years. Even if a nurse works in the ICU, they are doing the same 20-30 tasks day in and day out. That’s not learning medicine. You would have 5-15 year emts/paramedics becoming ER physicians with this mentality. It’s wrong, it’s foolish, and it’s misleading to patients. This is super misleading to anyone who doesn’t work in health care. Most people pursuing NP/CRNA don’t have 5 years experience as a nurse. They even have direct nurse to NP now. On top of that, 5-15 years experience as a nurse is just not that conducive to medicine. Why? Because those aren’t 5-15 years spent developing treatment plans, learning about disease and pathophys, treating patients and following their course, learning from treatment mistakes, learning from other physicians. It’s 5-15 years following orders, and it’s typically the same orders involving the same patient population because most people work on the same type of unit for years. Even if a nurse works in the ICU, they are doing the same 20-30 tasks day in and day out. That’s not learning medicine. You would have 5-15 year emts/paramedics becoming ER physicians with this mentality. It’s wrong, it’s foolish, and it’s misleading to patients.
On paper you’re right, nurses are way less experienced than physicians with developing care plans and prescribing meds all based on pt specific disease processes. In the real world, you couldn’t be more wrong. Most Nurses know the necessary info on disease processes and meds like the back of their hand, and often times catch the doctors on care plan mistakes. At most facilities/hospitals, the nurses have 30 minutes to make a decision for the pt aligning with the care plan that then can get approved by the MD. Ofc that intervention is already underway but for legal reasons, it’s approved and in a written order within 30 minutes. There are the Nurses that do rush to NP school, which I agree is reckless but if they meet the necessary testing and clinical requirements...they’re considered professionally competent. Then go on to shadow for a little while and care for pts under supervision before the hospital deems them competent. Both practices are good at what they do, don’t discount them for their hard work.
Nurses focus on Nursing Diagnosis/related treatments, not Medical the ones, we should not confuse the role of each of these health providers. I think you forgot that Nurses Practice is Based on EBP as well as physician (see Evidence Based Nursing) so there are a variety of tasks that aren't the same for even the same population (even into a ICU for example), because everyone is different and a different and personalized care is required for each patient (read Nursing process to Expand your knowledge about nursing world/school). So please do not spread false and ignorant beliefs That damages people's perception of the roles I mentioned. And I hope from the bottom of my heart that many people will open their minds and update their beliefs about what I said 😄
You comparisons are disingenuous. You're are intentionally stacking as much as you can on the NP side to make it seem on the surface equivalent as a new physician. You know there are NPs who graduate with no nursing work experience but intentionally don't include them in the comparison. If you are going to compare new graduates, then include new graduates with no work experience with a caveat that there are nurses who work professionally before entering into NP school.
I did mention that there is no formal requirement for many programs, however the MAJORITY of NPs have RN experience prior to working as an NP. So your caveat would be disingenuous. I also was not claiming that NPs are equivalent to new physicians - this video outlines the vast differences in education and training
@@WillKellyNP When people compare admission requirements to any graduate school, they put in the minimum requirements. What you did was only put the minimum requirements for medical school and did not do the same for nurse practitioner school. This is disingenuous. You literally say "there is no minimum amount of experience required for most NP programs" This means you take out the 5-15 years experience. The only reason a lot NPs had prior nursing experience was because in the past NP schools required prior nursing experience. But that changed today.
Will Kelly, NP there are so many programs that are a straight pipeline to NP. Please stop making Yourself seem better than a doctor. It’s honestly pathetic
@@evanwhite2680 I do not think NP > Physician. But I do think NP is a great alternative with its own set of pros and cons. Definitely less schooling and training, usually more oversight, definitely less pay
But why is everyone so triggered?! It’s the equivalent of y’all acting like he claimed his penis to be bigger than the rest and now you are all here angry l, pulling out yours saying “no mine is the biggest!”. The egos here are ridiculous! Do you really think that he is trying to discredit physicians?! I can tell who went to school just so they could get that MD and feed their bloated egos even more from those that went to school because they are truly passionate about the art of medicine and patient care. Shameful 🤦🏾♀️
As a physician for over a decade I've never once mistaken an NP note for a physician's and I can tell within the first 30 seconds of any verbal communication that someone is who fails to properly introduce him/herself is a physician or not. NPs play an important role in healthcare delivery, but the gap in medical knowledge is apparently obvious to any physician.
How elitist of you, I'm glad you continue to portray the stereotype that doctors are insufferable douches that can't comprehend a NP in their practice. The 1950's are calling you Mr. Edward.
Texting you from Germany and here the system is different. I personally would like to hear the opinion of a nurse but I would never want her to make a decision because in Germany the doctor is the one who owns the responsibility and nurses simply don’t have the Knowledge that a doc has. I find the System in the US very ridiculous. If these people can give the patients medication, why don’t they attend the surgery and operate on patients? Giving the patients medication is also an invasive attack. I would not feel safe in the US.
Hi, you probably wont be able to respond to this, but i would like to gather your opinion on how an NP (specifically an FNP) can increase medical skills. I just got accepted into FNP school today and I've recently just started on reviewing A&P then moving onto pathophysiology, and then organic chemistry. Ive always loved the medical aspects present in nursing and, while I am not becoming a physician, I would like to know how to become a competent nurse practitioner. I am sure that there are many who do not know what they are doing, but I am determined to become a competent FNP. I would likely never own my own practice, but I would like to be a very knowledgeable FNP that physicians are comfortable working with and think "this guy actually knows what he is doing". Like I said, i have already started on studying A&P and plan on studying pathophysiology and O-chem in my spare time, but what else can I do to help fill in that medical knowledge deficit (even though I am fully aware that I will likely never compare to an MD, certainly not straight out of NP school at least)? Thank you very much. I appreciate it.
It’s pretty disingenuous to insinuate that NPs and MDs/DOs have similar roles in health care. They absolutely do not. For starters patient load is no where near the same. Neither are the daily hours.
breea07 patient load really depends on the clinical setting, as many outpatient primary care NPs are seeing just as many patients as physicians. NPs and physicians both manage acute and chronic conditions - so it’s pretty fair to say they have similar roles. NPs often will need to have collaboration with physicians but still maintain a decent amount of autonomy, especially in primary care. I’m not sure if this is an issue with “disingenuous” information, or bruised egos. Either way - this video is not about falsely elevating NPs and diminishing physicians. I tried to provide an objective perspective of the similarities and differences between the two. I love my collaborating physicians and am happy for the increased work life balance and decreased patient load (in my inpatient setting).
@@WillKellyNP lol. NPs see a small fraction of the patient load MDs do. I always find it funny seeing NP notes when looking through a pts EMR history. The void of thought and educational context is huge
@Agatha Romeiro indeed. The intensity of MD medical education is intense. Medical school and residency holds you over a very hot fire until you can know what youre doing. NPs walk in and get coddled as they go through
These programs are a joke. There are NP schools are diploma mills that require NO bedside experience, completely ONLINE, and have close to 100% acceptance. Can the same be said for medical school?
I cackled at him saying premeds have zero clinical hours. Good luck getting into medical school with no clinical experience. Most people who actually get in have >1000 hours.
@@lucascooper3613 The ReSeArCh you are referring to is a bunch of blatantly biased low powered studies funded by either Cochrane, the AANP, or both. Actual reliable research can't be performed due to ethical issues.
@@lucascooper3613 well guess what, you aren’t going to a primary care clinic and have an NP check your headache only to have a physician find out on an ct for a epidural hematoma now are you? But for a few stitches and a lollypop? Yeah sure, let the NP do that, no need for a physician.
Do you even work in healthcare at the bedside as a practicing clinician? Or perhaps your specific location or facility does not utilize NPs in such a manner
@@WillKellyNP the problem is you are too far down on the Dunning Kruger scale to know why what you are saying is so flawed or why your reasoning makes no sense.
@@WillKellyNP I find it quiet sad that we have a great disconnect in these comments. We as healthcare providers need to understand that ego should not be the basis of our arguments. Likewise, I do not recall this video speaking poorly of physicians, but I found it to give a general view ( not entirely accurate, but that wasn't the point of the video). Moreover, I recommended learning to be humble regardless of a degree because there is a difference in pride and arrogance. We need to work as a team for our patients, and we need to see eachother as assets.
@@connornoble5728 true. Except the issue nowadays is that nurses are trying to creep the authority ladder up and further perpetuate the nonsense that they are or feel as equal to a physician and that’s pure nonsense and NEEDS to stop. Until nurses realise their place and function, this discourse will just go on and on. This has nothing to do with ego, this has everything to do WITH THE SAFETY OF THE PATIENT. Things like prescription and diagnostis authoritiy should remain with physician for a reason. Sure, there are certain things a nurse can take over from a physician. But there are things physicians can do that nurses CAN NOT. Due to higher clinical authorities, we are also bound to clinical liabilities while nurses are not. Yes, work as a team. Meaning each has their tasks and responsibilities. It’s however a shame that nurses feel the need into thinking they can bridge authority barriers and pretend to be something they are not qualified be. It’s dangerous.
Wow such terrible info. Residency is 3-7 years by the way. And a lot of Med students have to take time off of school to even get into medical school, just like NP. You’re forgetting that residents get formal education and go into specific specialties... while NPs get trained “on the job”
I don't know, I prefer seeing my NP for basic primary care visits. Before I had some MD, but turns out he went to a Caribbean medical school and somehow gets to practice in Florida. He failed to diagnose an issue I was having, meanwhile I saw this NP and she figured it out within a single visit.
This isn't borne out by the data. NPs provide equivalent care in every single study done (and many studies have established superior patient outcomes). So weird how many internet warriors on this video without a shred of education...
The training is different but the they end up doing the same things. Nursing has evolved and are side by side with doctors during to patients demands.doctors should also evolve and specialise in their fields and become experts while NP and PA do what doctors are doing now. Yes carreers evolve and there's nothing you can do about it. Nursing is not 18 century Nursing Some of them are more informed than doctors and I have seen million times nurses correcting doctors daa
@@rahmamohamed9664 stop lying to yourself. While NPs and Doctors may share some of the same responsibilities and the same tasks, the training and knowledge required to be any type of doctor trumps that of the NP.
@@tubbehht9236 knowledge comes in different forms .Nurses go through intense practice and are 24 hours with the patients that alone speaks volumes. I don't deny doctors are taught formally for many years and taught to understand disease patterns nurses on the other hand are practically involved with patients in the wards from year 1. We do different roles from doctors and we use the nursing model as opposed to the medical model.while doctors understand and become experts in their fields so is different disciplines like pharmacists radiographers etc.you doctors can strive to be experts in your fields. For nursing the sky is the limit and can become doctorates in their specific field.so go on doc
Jesus, they are the same at the end. One studies loads of theory the other learns on the job. Also a doctor is not always a medic. Also, everyone equates the word doctor with physician. A doctorate can be done on anything, theology, music, nursing etc. Finally, I think people don't understand the difference between a nurse and a nurse practitioner. Here in the UK an NP can even do surgeries.
As many other physicians have pointed out the comments, this video is misleading. 5-15 years of RN experience? That is by far the exception, not the average NP. Most have less than 2 years. Also RN experience is irrelevant to being a "provider". You don't make medical management decisions as an RN and their pathophysiology and pharmacology are minimum as nursing curriculum's are diluted with nursing theory classes. Sure, they can observe a doctor doing Y in response to X but they likely don't know why. If they do, they don't know the next option and when to not use Y. Nurses know logistics well and they do bring that into NP school but that's something that can be learned quickly and easily as young physicians do all the time.
You need to revise your video to correct the part about premed students not getting any experience to medicine. Most premed students have significant clinical experience, in addition to research, volunteering, and leadership that you left off your board.
Kumar Sukhdeo MD PhD I didn’t mean to imply that they had absolutely no exposure - but they usually do not have any formal clinical experience. I know that they usually do have some type of job-related shadowing or health-care exposure required for most med schools as well - I should have mentioned that in the video in retrospect
@@WillKellyNP Most medical students have far more clinical hours of shadowing than NPs do when they GRADUATE. I had more than 500 hours of clinical shadowing before starting medical school. Not to mention research, leadership and volunteer work. This is pretty much a requirement for getting into medical school. If you do not have all these things, then you simply don't get accepted.
@@abuzar1 Please see my response directly above. This info was added to the attached article. However, I hope you are not suggesting that the ~500 hours of shadowing or job experience as a CNA, tech, scribe, etc is comparable to ~700 hours of clinical learning to be a provider. During NP clinicals you are not observing. You are taking what you learn in NP school, and learning how to think as a Provider in terms of history taking, physical assessment, diagnosis, interpretation, and clinical management and education. This video by NO means was intended to diminish the medical degree route - in fact, it is a route that i HIGHLY respect and if you watch the video I think that is apparent
Current 3rd, going on 4th year medical student. I had roughly 4000 hours of medical experience during undergrad by working as a CNA and medical scribe before even applying to medical school. Many of my classmates had the same experience if not more. We completed this medical experience while in college finishing our degrees + prereqs which are objectively more rigorous and dive deeper physiologically compared to nursing degrees. A premed without clinical experience applying to medical school is an automatic rejection nowadays. To say that premeds don't have comparable medical experience in undergrad is misleading, we have plenty experience, it is just not built into our degrees.
Wasn't intended to be misleading. I added this info in the accompanying blog linked above. In the video I more meant that the actual education of Pre-med doesn't incorporate any substantial clinical experience, but I should have included a sentence clarifying this. I also forgot to mention that many RN students work as patient care assistants as well.
Premed students do not have any medical experience compared to RNs. How do I know? I've a biology degree and took the same classes as premed students. There is nothing in those premed classes that prepares you as a MD. 2 biology, 2 physics, 2 organic chemistry, 2 general chemistry, calculus, and 2 English, 1 biochemistry. Are you fking kidding, that's not medicine. Go read up on RN books and you will see that a RN knows what a 4th year med student knows. I'm an RN and a NP now. I know what I'm talking about. The only thing that RNs don't know that NPs later learn is differential diagnosis. I work in internal medicne (IM) and the physicians I work with are always commending me on how much I know without going thru an official IM residency. Obviously they don't know how much we learn in RN and NP school. Get off your high horse. NPs are here to stay.
@@hhc1948 Wow you are so off.. Will leave this comment not just for you, but for other potential young students who are deciding on a career. There is no real similarity between RN's medical knowledge and a 4th year MD student that is an insane comparison! The medical model of training is completely different than nursing. Furthermore, premedical students need to excel in their premed classes and score high on rigorous exams like the MCAT because their medical training requires a strong foundation in first principles. For example, a solid understanding of organic chemistry and biochemistry is necessary to appreciate the nuances of pathophysiology and pharmacology. Your NP degree (Assuming it was a legit program not an online diploma mill) has given you some surface knowledge of medical subjects and you can do some basic, routine, and repetitive tasks. Please do not confuse that with the strenous process of becoming an attending physician. There are no shortcuts to gain mastery and medicine is hard. You say that you work in IM and I am sure you have accumulated some knowledge over time. The challenge in medicine is not just knowing what you do know but also what you do not know (and it is a lot that you do not know). If you fail to appreciate this, you may be falling victim to the Dunning-Kruger effect (Common among mid levels).
@Manuel Tory like I said. I have a BSc in biology, and took biochemistry and organic chemistry along with all the premed classes. So I do know what I'm talking. Premed classes is not medical knowledge.
You said "There is nothing in those premed classes that prepares you as an MD" and my comment was an attempt to explain how theose classes are the foundations that allow medical students appreciate the nuances of medicine and gain expertise.
My biggest issue with NP’s is that many are now receiving their education online. In addition to this I have yet to meet a mid level that claims they have the same Knowledge as a Doc. If I just had to be brutally honest the education of a PA is a lot higher quality although they receive less practicing rights in many states than NP’s. I think this has a breaking point, and many NP’s, PA’s and physicians think it will be a major step back for patient care.
PAs can have any bachelors deg + 2 yrs of clinical training while NPs have a BSN + a masters or doctorate deg with 6-8 years of clinical training. In the hospital PAs and NPs pretty much have the same respected role except NPs have more autonomy. Yes some NP programs have online components for lectures but all of the clinicals and hands on training is in person! Most PA & MD (any higher ed) programs also hold online lectures! Just want to clear up the misinformation!
@Fatboyudes I agree that the video should only compare PA to NPs. Physicians are in their own specialty. I could see if he was comparing Internal medicine physician to Family medicine physician. Misleading for certain.
@@cinnamon3220 So this video mainly is intended to outline the difference in education, training, and job-role for those who are up in the air about which one to choose. This is not to say that NPs are better than Physicians. If you want to check out my NP vs PA video - here it is! ua-cam.com/video/QBUSwQdFbdM/v-deo.html
A physicians depth of knowledge as a provider is much greater than an NP's. While NP's/PA's are very much needed in healthcare, they often do not know what they don't know. This is what distinguishes one from knowing whether a presentation is early MS, Bells or signs of a stroke. Yes, the path to becoming a physician is difficult and grueling but you honestly cannot compare it to the path to become an NP. 1. RN training does not equal provider training. Bedside exposure is beneficial in terms of terminology and communication w/ nurses but not very important in terms of diagnosis. 2. Nursing programs add so many fluff classes. 3. NP programs often times make you find your own clinical sites, which is not beneficial to learning. You are also only learning from the scope of that provider/NP/PA whereas MDs/DO's are trained as generalists then specialize. 4. NP's starting w/o residency is equivalent to a1st year resident w/ no experience. Let me reiterate, PA's/NPs = great for healthcare. Although, it's hard to say which provider is "better". Both are different though they are definitely not a replacement for physicians. But ask yourself this...if you were really sick or had a family member that was critical, would you want a doctor doing the work up or the NP/PA? Yes, job roles are similar but NP's/PA's are not standalone providers hence why they work in collaboration. They aren't single handedly taking the complex cases that make medicine so appealing and worth the 10+ years of training.
Roy Johnson Roy Johnson thank you for watching and for the constructive feedback. Did you watch the entire video? I do mention that I believe physician training is more rigorous, your depth of knowledge will be much greater, you train in almost every specialty, and that many NPs will work in close collaboration with a physician. I also mention that RN experience has its benefits but is not equal to Clinicals learning to become a Provider. As far as NP education, there are definitely improvements that can be made, but that is a different topic entirely. My intent wasn’t to diminish the capabilities of a Physician. It was to provide an overview of the differences in education, training, and job role. Even though NPs have quite a bit less formal education and training (as I’ve stated in the video multiple times), I do believe our education/training is sufficient for our role within healthcare, as it seems you may agree. As far as a sick critical family member - perhaps I should have been a little more clear about specialties. Critical care is obviously one which requires excellent clinicians. While I think NPs can be a great part of an ICU team, of course I would want an intensivist close by. As far as your comment stating that NPs/PAs are not standalone providers - that is only partially true. PAs are not. NPs, however, have full practice authority in 21 states. Now this doesn’t mean an NP can go into any specialty (i.e. ICUs) and is equivalent to a Physician. But it does mean that they are legally considered Independent providers, especially within the scope of primary care. I work inpatient and am personally very happy to have close collaboration with my attending physicians, as well as specialties, medical residents, and ICU intensivists.
Roy Johnson I respectfully disagree with at least a third of what you are saying. As a critical care/ ICU nurse I’ve been exposed to limitless medical knowledge- the 1 and 2 yr residents often have to consult with me to ascertain appropriate medical treatment: 1) Because i am the once who is constantly assessing and monitoring the patient. 2) Because, having been a nurse for 5yrs I am very familiar with treatments and protocol. 3) Repetitive behavior yields perfection!! You have to consider the speciality of the nurse and the rigorous training of that unit (medical/step-down ICU) plus the intensity of patient illness before making a claim like that. The more competent/knowledgeable a nurse is- the easier it is for providers, hands down.
This is very misleading, although sadly typical of NP misinformation. First off, many NP programs are now entirely online, and do not require any nursing experience. Many can also be completed in less than two years. Additionally, 1 year of NP school is nowhere near equivalent to one year of med school! This also makes it sound as if they spend their time in NP school studying for a specific specialty, which is not the case. Most are FNPs, which is basic medical knowledge. Unfortunately, unlike physicians who do have very specialized training, NPs can freely jump around to whatever specialty they choose, many of which have little to do with what they studied. Compared to the minimum of 500 hours of clinical training for NPs (much of which is actually just shadowing), physicians have well over 10,000 hours of actual supervised clinical training, with gradually increasing responsibility. Despite the wins by a very strong nursing lobby, physicians are the only people who are adequately trained for independent practice. While healthcare is a team effort, physicians are the only appropriate leaders of that team. The biggest problem with any midlevel will always be that you don’t know what you don’t know. And there is an awful lot that they don’t know.
So true and spot-on man I can testify. Especially after the hour's doctors have spent gaining medical education. It's indicative of the corruption in the US health system.
You did not mention that very few medical students can even hold down a weekend job Due to the hours of classes and studying just to keep up. Converesly many nursing and NP students work part or even full time while attending NP school. Acceotance rate to medical school hovers around 5%. Some online NP schools have 100% acceotance rates.
US MD student here. I agree with you rcomment completely, except the statistic on medical school acceptance. Acceptance into a single medical school might be around 5%, but overall medical school acceptance is actually around 35-40% because most applicants apply to 15-40 schools. 👍
You state that to be an independently practicing DNP you need 6 to 17+ years training (implying many NPs are more qualified than MDs/Dos because they are more likely to train longer) while to be an independently practicing physician attending, a MD/DO needs 11-12 years training. It takes a minimum of 11 years but the upper limit is certainly not 12. If you’re going to do a fair comparison put the upper limit at 16/17 as well (4 for undergrad, 2 for research/postbac since this is just as likely as the 5 years nurses spend before advancing, 4 for medical school, 3-4 for residency and 3 more for specialization/fellowship or add a few more on top of that if you want to be a specialized surgeon..) Also, correct me if I’m wrong, but are there not programs that allow you to get your nursing degree and doctorate nurse practitioner at the same time? And I thought the NP clinical hours were 500 and that can be volunteering and shadowing only? A 60 hour workweek as a resident is a light week. Thats not including studying, charting, research etc. Avg work is more like 100 hours a week.
Not to mention that the 17+ years he used was including the 5-15 years of RN work experience, which is not medical training. Ultimately, in terms of training hours, it only really takes
I only studied a lot when I went for the first time last year but the second time was so easy, all thanks to my aunt who introduced me to Mrs Amilia am really grateful
we all are at risk of falling into the Dunning- Kruger effect ...anyway the board of Nursing should review licensed professionals who claim they can provide care out their scope of pratice ...I understand medical schools not for everyone but it is unthenical and illegal to pratice out your scope of practice or even to missform to patients or others professionals..even if your in your mind your are a MD ... NP are not MDs...
NPs are definitely not MDs - that is true, and I definitely do not think I am a physician. I know my shortcomings and am very thankful for my collaboration with my attending physicians. But don't be mistaken - assessing, diagnosing, and treating patient's and their medical conditions is the legal and ethical scope of practice of an NP
JustTooLit that is true! The video itself is between doctors (both MDs and DOs) and NPs. I wanted to use a popular doctor here in the UA-cam world. However I can see how that thumbnail is a bit misleading and makes it seem as though Dr. Mike is an MD. Thank you for clarifying!
@javiercarlos rodriguez Awwww, did you get rejected from a DO school and are taking out your frustration on the internet? I went to a DO school and am now a dermatology resident at a top 20 academic institution. Didn't get into an MD program despite having a 3.98 GPA bc my MCAT was below avg due to having to work full-time to support my family. Yes, I agree that OMM is generally a waste of time, and that the entire "holistic" approach to medicine that DO admissions committees tout is nonsense since all competent physicians should practice medicine with that mindset. As someone who hasn't used a minute of OMM since my last class as a second-year medical student, I'm a physician who matched into my first choice program and not a massage therapist while you're a dickhead with a grainy high school graduation profile photo being an asshole online to mask your own insecurities.
@javiercarlos rodriguez I'm a practicing dermatologist now, so that was a long time ago (6+ years) in the past. The MCAT is a 9-hour long entrance exam that is required for entry into a MD or DO program in the united states.
@javiercarlos rodriguez MD here.... DOs get nothing but respect from me. Their educatiom is more than suficient, and I would truat most DOs i know over most MDs i studied with.
Difference = 10,000 hrs of hands on training for doctors vs mostly online courses that are impossible (nearly) to fail for nurse practitioners. It's very easy to get accepted to nurse practitioner programs. It's difficult to get accepted to medical school. Make your own conclusion about which you want to care for you.
Adam Sorensen Doctors are there to keep the masses sick enough to keep them coming back. They’ve become modern day salesman for the pharmaceutical co. I’d take an NP with years as an RN with certificates in Nutrition.
@@urhyhnis, it's hard to really quantify how ignorant that statement is. The difference is clear. NPs are poorly qualified relative to physicians, your conspiracy theories notwithstanding.
It’s actually very hard to get accepted into a bsn program when you don’t have experience because most schools are very small and limited with teachers
I mean ...if the MD are so fuckin perfect and they " know" everything , what in the heck they dont take care about patients? If they are so good then.. We should eliminate nursing and the MD should do all the job, even I propose to eliminate all the other health programs . Come on !
Regardless of what someone ends up choosing I feel like to be a nurse or a physician you have to want to work in the medical field because it's a lot of work, a lot of education, and a lot of training and I feel like it wouldn't be worth going through if you are becoming a doctor just because it's one of the most successful jobs. You have to actually want to work in the medical field if you want to become a doctor/nurse or already a doctor/nurse because I feel like It will be hard to stick with it, if you don't even like your job
Doctors are trained for special procedures, thoracentesis, chest tube insertions and many more, and deals with more critical ill patients compared to NPs. So medical school provide a better training and shouldn’t be compared in terms of the care provider by both. However, I love your comparison from the nursing aspect. Bedside nursing provides a good exposure to the clinical aspects of patient care. But NPs are not trained or granted license for special surgical procedures like the ones mentioned above and more. That is why we need doctors. We all work in collaboration to provide /promote the well being of patients.
You're not wrong - doctors for sure get training that cannot compare to NP education. But I disagree with your statement about NPs not being able to perform those procedures which you listed above. NPs can get trained to perform chest tube thoracotomies or needle thoracentesis among many other minor surgical procedures. These procedures are commonly taught in Acute Care NP programs (Chest tube more-so than thoracentesis). I also agree with you that doctors are absolutely necessary and we definitely need them! We also must be willing to collaborate when indicated to provide great care to our patients! :) The purpose of this video wasn't to falsely elevate the NP profession over the physician's - it was to emphasize the importance of what NPs do, and the value of collaboration with our physician colleagues!
NPs are mid-level providers. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's pretty obvious that you're trying to turn it into top-level providers. It's tough to compare something you know to something that you don't, so I can't knock you too hard, however, this is pretty over the top.
I wasn't trying to make NPs a "top-level provider", whatever that means. Just trying to objectively list the differences between the 2 routes. However, I did miss some important information and made some oversights, and plan on redoing the video soon
Lol I might be the only nursing student that doesn’t trust NPs. I’d rather my PCP be a MD/DO. I know a lot of my classmates are going through nursing school just to get their NP. They don’t actually want to work as RNs... it’s a easy route to take vs medical school. Not to mention a lot of the NP programs are basically degree mills that will let anyone in & pass as long as your willing to pay. In my opinion it shouldn’t be so easy to step into such a serious role of a provider. I also don’t think that NPs should be able to practice independently, instead they should function under the supervision of a MD/DO. Idk these are just my opinions, but I work at a training hospital where NP students come for clinical hours & they are scary!!!
You cannot legislate an education. If i have a choice to see a physician or NP and given the difference in education, training, and clinical hours, the choice is easy. I was misdiagnosed by an NP at urgent care. She didn’t agree with the hospital radiology department, so sent me home with pneumonia diagnosis. It was a pulmonary embolism which my physician quickly focused on. Both knew i had factor V Leiden and previous DVT.
Most biased video ever it’s laughable. Disclaimer I am neither a doctor or a NP. But it’s pretty obvious that most people agree when I say that you can’t seriously think that 5-15 years of NP experience equates to medical school that doctors go through. They have direct programs too now. Lmaoooo this is a joke
To think an Np is even close to a physician is ridiculous in terms of skill and experience. This biased information is dangerous to the public and further puts distrust into doctors
This video isn't to claim they are the same, but rather to point out their difference in education and training, as well as to help guide those who are between both careers
As an NP, collaboration mainly means consulting them if you have any questions regarding the management of a patient or their disease. This depends on the state, but also may involve cosignature of charts
The only negative point I have to make is that nursing degrees do tend to have a lot of ‘fluff’ classes. I’m a very academic and studious person. Received A’s mainly throughout school. & I did expect my nursing degree to be more intellectually stimulating. It is by no means easy, it’s hard work cause there’s a lot of things you need to do and get in order for placements but the actual content feels quite limited. I have topics like “Fundamental Communication Skills” and “Personal development” which so far hasn’t taught me anything I didn’t already know. They feel like filler classes to fill the year timetable. The only remotely stimulating class has been Anatomy & Physiology which I’ve found intense but really interesting and knowledgeable. I received almost full marks on my paper. Practice Skills has also been very useful, but again, actual knowledge feels very far and few (they move at a slow pace). I originally wanted to study medicine but thought I wouldn’t be able to handle it due to the monumental work load and study. But now I’m wishing I gave it more thought. & whilst I do love and enjoy my nursing degree, it doesn’t challenge me in the way I thought it would and I don’t feel like I’m actually learning enough 🤷♀️.
A lot of the learning comes on the job. If you’re not too deep into your nursing degree and are having these thoughts - maybe consider switching to premed?? The sooner the better if that’s what you truly want to do! Or finish your degree but make sure you take premed pre-reqs ASAP. Nurses bring a whole new set of skills when going back to get their medical degree. I absolutely agree with you, I wish there was less fluff classes in my undergrad and grad education. This is a major reason why I’m not running to get my DNP. Good luck to you!!
Leah McDermott I think you may have went to the wrong school. Until you can you mastered every diseases/ medicine and have perfect clinical skills then you have life long nursing journey.
Those classes may feel like "fluff" if you already have good people skills. But you'd be surprised at how many people lack basic social skills, and that has a huge impact on nursing where you are working with patients more directly and closely that providers and MDs do. As a nurse I've seen some nurses who will just barge into patient's rooms and start pushing meds in their IVs or just rip off a dressing for a dressing change, without talking to the patient and letting them know what they're doing. There have been times when I've had to go into a belligerent patient's room and learned that the reason they were being difficult is because other staff members weren't listening to them, then they calm down and become pleasant just because I took a few minutes to listen to their concerns and address them. Bedside manner is extremely important in bedside nursing, and it is a skill that a lot of people have to be taught, which is what all those "fluff" classes are for. They teach nurses how to deal with patients as people, rather than treating them like just a project or a list tasks that need to be done.
@@snugglebuns6193 But they clearly dont work lol. I completely agree with what you said though. But those nurses took those fluff classes too. I literally saw a nurse at my clinical try to insinuate to family that they should take the pt off full code status in a really loud, blunt and demeaning way. Thank God the family could barely speak English. I was so mortified.
@Leah McDermott I do agree with you about there being too much fluff classes. I also feel like the fluff classes also take away from be fully absorbing the really important stuff. I am kept busy that I dont even have time to practice things I really feel like I need to practice. Like head to toe assessments. You can still study medicine and when you do you will be ahead of everyone with your clinical experience. You may also have a different appreciation for nurses when you do become a doctor.
If you want to have superficial knowledge of medicine go become NP. PA have significantly lot more depth of knowledge over NP. PA are still not equivalent to MD. I was NP before going to med school. Now teach med PA and NP student . NP students lack basic science (part of MD PA dental school) therefore they are often unable to answer questions on WHY something is wrong or WHY it works that way.
Protector K9 I work at an Intensive Care Unit. My colleagues and I have taken responsibility in learning pathophysiology and treatment of the conditions we receive. This is to completely understand the underlying problem and to address it effectively. With only a BSN we have earned the MDs respect when it comes to management of critically ill patients. On the other hand, I have witnessed countless malpractices from part of certain MDs because they seem to have forgotten “basic science”. At the end of the day it all depends on the individual. Graduating from a degree does not mean you will no longer learn.
@@kennethlpadindiaz2637 I have been NP . Most of the new NP are online grads with very little floor experience. I was shocked once I attended medical school how much I didn't know. Medical school is not to teach you everything about medicine it is to make you realize how complex and in depth this field is. And my gripe with NP is that almost all are not aware of this. On the other hand PA have some understanding of the issue. Also learning and forgetting and not learning at all are two different things.
@@kennethlpadindiaz2637 They don't even take Organic Chem or a true grad level anatomy class. Without orgo IDK how anyone can claim they actually understand Pharm? I think NP's can be a valued resource for medical care, but only alongside a physician. Autonomy will absolutley kill people especially now that everything is going online.
@@joshb2686 :v I really dont know what is happening in ur country ( US?). I'm from LatAm but ...hell! Here in the masters program or doctoral programl is almoat mandatory that u get the knowledge in the basic science because here in the rural areas when is 0 physicians , we can replace them , for example we can attend alone a birth , we can administer medications etc , I mean I was thinking about going to U.S to do my master buttt... I don't know whats happening there. On the other hand, I have done few rotations with MD and they told me , you have to be really good because being a nurse or a general physician is almost the same u have to know, what I know.Then guys: I UNDERSTAND THAT NURSING IS ABOUT ALL THE STUFF CARE, buutttt wr have to be good in everything
I think you did pretty well at talking about this topic in comparison. Straying away from the topic of this video a bit, I think that the medical field definitely have this hierarchy in titles and roles. I dont think one should belittle the other or act or feel the need to prove oneself base on title (not saying that you did it, just notice a lot of people in healthcare do). A NP is a NP, a physician is a physician. The scope of practice may be similar, but there holds a big gap of difference too. The end goal is to provide quality care to patients. As a future ADNP I wouldn't dare introducing myself as Dr to any of my patients, bc it can be misleading or confusing to them. I am proud of myself for the hard work I put in, but I dont see a need to constantly flaunt it. I really enjoyed your video, it got me thinking a lot about the hierarchy that exist in the medical field. :)
This is quite misleading. Saying NPs have around 5-15 years experience as bedside nurses is FALSE - there are many NPs who literally have never spent a day as a bedside RN and have basically zero practical clinical experience. YOU yourself don't have 5 years of bedside nursing experience. You say this video wasnt meant to elevate NPs or mislead people and yet you post outright lies. Shame on you.
He said average.......some people go back to school after 15-20 years and some goes straight. Some NP school require 1-2years of RN experience to get accepted.
@@HealthEri Within the wider context of a 30-35 year career, 5-15 isn't an "average"...one value is 3x as high as the other. Stats don't really work like that.
I’m a now senior in high school and am looking into some BSN programs to become an NP. I’m a bit curious about what the normal work day would be like in the different settings NPs work in! Thanks!
So I'm curious. This gentleman looks fairly young for an NP. After he got his BSN how long was he an RN? I have heard that 1-2 years of nursing experience is enough to go back for a master's. So do you need 5 years or more? If this gentleman had more than five years then congrats because he still looks very young.
Will Kelly, NP true but NP can practice independently in I believe 23 states. That is not the same for PA who must working under a MD. Also, compensation threshold I would argue is higher for a NP than a PA as an NP can go in to receive their DNP. I believe their is not doctorate level for a PA that is not the route of a MD
@@metorphoric They are not doctors! They should get back to doing what they are supposed to be doing - working on the wards and stop trying to play doctor!
Nursing knowledge and work doesn't translate to the work done by physicians. As a physician, I get many calls from "experienced" nurses doing wrong things and other nurses ruining protocols and care because they don't know what they are doing and are scared of following orders correctly. Then the curriculum of NP is loaded with leadership, education, advocacy and other courses that have nothing to do with medicine. Finally, the care provided by NPs is inferior, and all these "studies" cited have been debunked time and time again. NPs simply don't have enough training or knowledge to do the job
I know it doesn't translate - as I clearly state in the video. Just that it helps nurses become familiarized with "how everything works", and become acquainted with diseases and medical treatments. I support NP education reform and agree that NP curriculum needs to cut out fluff and replace it with classes that supplement clincal knowledge and decision making. As far as your claim that NPs offer inferior care, are you able to provide any studies which support this?
@@WillKellyNP Yes, several studies. For example, let's start with PMID 15922696, PMID 22305625, PMID 32333312, PMID 29641238. I could continue, but that's a start. Also, if you believe outcomes are similar, why are you suggesting more education?
Some programs allow this. You will still need to take and pass the NCLEX-RN and maintain your RN licensure. Even most people who do this end. up working at least part-time. I would recommend getting at least 1-2 years of FT RN experience before starting NP school, and work throughout your program
*I appreciate the info!! My son has adhd therefore, he goes to a mental health facility. He seen a doctor and a counselor at the clinic for years, until the doctor had to leave due to having health issues (he was able to retire). Since then, for the past 3 years, my son has only seen NPs and no counselors. There's a big difference since the change though!! It's almost like they just want you in and out as fast as possible so they ask the same few questions then send his script! Now, I don't know exactly how educated the NPs are in mental health and I don't mean to be rude... I just don't know and when it comes to mental health disorders and controlled substances, it's serious! I don't think our health care system deals with mental health the way it should anyways, but it seems to be getting even worse!! With that said, I know that mental health has increased tremendously through the years as well so, I'm sure it's even harder for doctors to keep up with the amount of traffic!! And I'm sure that's the exact reason they have so many NPs in place of doctors!! .... I'm also kinda curious how that goes with pay rates bc if your doing the job a doctor should, you should get paid the same amount!! I just wish our health care system would do better with mental health!!*
People has different experience depending on the individual professional (not based on license). I hear a lot of people get a better care with NPs than a doctor.
It's like saying "I worked 5-15 years as a waiter in a top restaurant so that automatically qualifies me for top chef" Noctors are overdoing it. You aren't trained for independent practice, so cut it out. If you wanted that you should've gone to med school 🤷♀️
This is so crazy biased. You also forgot to mention the caliber of students that get into med school. The average GPA to have a chance to get into med school is above 3.7 and a high score on the MCAT. Out of that small pool of people, maybe 1-2% get in. Have you heard of anyone not getting into nursing school? Residency is at least 80 hours per week, not including call at home
Mistake #1 (in the first 30 seconds in the video): Don’t shock asystole!! I’ve worked with great NPs and great physicians. Nurses practice nursing. Physicians practice medicine. That’s the big difference.
If you look at my early videos you can see it shocks vfib. Perhaps the flatline sound effect wasn't the "best" choice, but it gets the point across. Also - it's a quick little intro animation, but go off.
that is a great consideration. Nursing requires quite a bit of patience and compassion. Sometimes helping clean up someone is part of the job. Honestly you just grow to not think much of it. However, there is SO MUCH more to a nurse's job than just cleaning up excrement. Depending on your setting, you may not even have to do it at all. As an NP, you will not be required to do any personal care in most settings.
No - a BSN must first be obtained before an MSN can be. There are some direct-entry programs for non-nurses but essentially these programs will first take you through your BSN, you must pass the NCLEX-RN, and then take you through your MSN.
Yes you can do a direct entry program for your MSN then work a year and apply for a NP certification. Just google it because ppl will say you can’t but you can.
@@prettypri2949 While this is true, the direct-entry programs still take you through the BSN portion of the education, you then have to take and pass the NCLEX-RN, and then move onto your MSN studies. By the end of it, you will have both a BSN and an MSN.
Ok lets not sugar coat it. as a 3rd year medical student I had more clinical hours than a graduating NP. A brand (yesterday 4th year med student, today's brand new doc) new intern has a much wider differential for any CC than an NP with several years of experience. NP's can't even pass USMLE board exams ( ~95% pass rate among MD/DO) even after they made a dumb dow version of the test, Columbia NP school, less than 40% passed. Lets not forget that there are a shit ton of online school aka money mills where NP's take most of their "sciences" . NP's follow nursing, not medical model. Belive it or not a deep knowledge of physiology and pathology is super important in having a broad differential diagnoses, evaluating DD interactions based on our training in biochemistry, cell bio ect... NP's do not cover many of these subjects and those that they do is surface level detail that helps them follow simple algorithms. Not to mention that those 15 THOUSAND hours of residency involves grueling work demands , yet residents are strictly asses by multiple level examinations thuse they have to keep up with in-depth studying daily . Now i have to give credit where its due the AANP is a great lobbying group that knows how to push their agenda. First it was supervising physician, now its "collaborating" and now we see where it all is going, corporations are saving money while patients get substandard care from "Independent NPs"
@@nickmartinez6074 thats great! My cousin is studying to become a doctor she is in her residency now and i saw everything she had to sacrifice, I just dont want to sacrifice that much time out of my life i want to enjoy my youth
Depends what you want for your life. Do you want to be the surgeon making the major decisions and leading the ship, but which also entails being the person called through all hours of the night with all the responsibility. Or do you want to be a PA or NP working with the surgeon as an aid with good pay, hours, and less responsibility
I personally think NPs are not bad. But, schools should not offer doctorate degree for nurses, pts, and pharmacists to distinguish them from medical doctor. That would eliminate unnecessary conflict and confusion. I know many NPs act alike or wanting to play doctor’s role on clinical setting simply for they earned DNP. Also, all NP’s program should require at least 3~5 years of experience as a RN before they pursue higher degree. There are too many incompetent NPs straight out of college with no or very little experience who think they are too smart. Nurses should be proud of being a a nurse and not mimic other role.
The fact of the matter is that you cannot compare physicians to NPs or physicians to PAs or NPs to PAs. Physicians such as Internal Medicine, Family medicine or general medicine physicians essentially practice doing the same thing that NPs and PAs do. The way that they are educated is different. NPs were initially trained as nurses, therefore they were taught to treat the whole patient. PAs are taught to treat the problem that the patient presents with just like physicians. It's just like you cannot compare an Internal Medicine physician to an Infectious disease physician. However, I think that it is unnecessary to compare one specialty to another specialty.
Just a heads up, physicians are 100% trained to train the patient as a whole,. There is a biopscyhosocial model in place within the training. You would not know this if you did not go to medical school though. If anything midlevels, like nurse practioenrs are opioid pushers and just want to make money from that. pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32333312/ Another study showing they overprescribe antibiotics. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15922696 Truth is midlevels are more likely to prescribe and less likely to think about treating the patient holistically.
@@udm787 Yes, physicians are taught on a medical model and nurses, NP's are taught on a nursing model. However, when physicians see patients in an outpatient setting they are 'problem focused'. The two roles still cannot be compared.
@@cinnamon3220 I agree. A comparison between nurses and physicians is ridiculous. They play two completely separate roles. One assists, the other leads. It could not be more clear who a society should want leading healthcare other than now, during this pandemic.
About work experience: depends on the NP field you want to go into. In my current preceptorship as a nursing student, most of the nurses were in (Labor and delivery) NP programs with only 2 years of experience (PCU floor). They mentioned most programs don't need experience in a particular field, just good references, and a good GPA (3.3-3.5).
Kiara Terre' that’s a great goal! After I graduated HS I immediately attended a 4-year BSN program. I then worked for a year as an RN before starting a part-time NP program. I worked Full-time throughout most of my program (2.5 years), did some travel nursing, and then began working as an NP!
Dra O Reply; Thanks for responding! On my channel, I encourage comments of all different opinions. However, I do want to also encourage the use of factual information. It is so important for nurses and nurse practitioners to provide evidence-based recommendations to our patients and colleagues. This whole debate over RN experience has always been something I’m passionate about - perhaps because I only waited 1 year before starting NP school and always feel the need to defend myself and my abilities as an NP. Despite my ~4 years of nursing experience, I still was able to maintain exceptional performance in a difficult program, excellent clinical preceptor reviews, a 3.9 GPA, and competency in my current role as an NP. To reinforce my point, I have done a little research. First, you mentioned that reputable NP programs require you to have 5 years of RN experience before even applying to NP programs. This is not factual. Looking at the top 3 NP programs according to The US News and World Report Rankings, Duke, Vanderbilt, and UPenn have no mention on their admissions pages of required RN experience. Except UPenn does mention that for their ACNP program they require at least 1 year in acute care - and this just makes sense. I think you would agree that these schools and NP programs are reputable. Honestly requiring any experience for an FNP program is not the norm. Second, I did a little mini-lit review looking for RN experience and it’s impact on NP competency. www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1555415514007983 This study showed that RN experience played no role in NP transition, whereas formal orientation did journals.lww.com/tnpj/Fulltext/2005/12000/Does_RN_Experience_Relate_to_NP_Clinical_Skills_.9.aspx This study overviews the data comparing little to no RN experience NPs with many-years RN experienced NPs. In it’s lit review, it overviews the few studies out there on the topic, and every one so far indicates no difference in NP GPA or performance. The authors then conduct a quantitative research study which aims to decipher the correlation between RN experience and NP clinical competency. There was no significant difference between the groups self-reporting level of competency, and their collaborating physicians actually ranked the less-experienced RN NPs as MORE COMPETENT than THE experienced RN NPs. Very interesting! Overall there isn’t a ton of research out there on the topic, but everything we have doesn’t indicate that RN experience is better, especially the arbitrary 5 years that you have mentioned. I’m not saying that RN experience is pointless. I find it very useful. I just consider the amount of years required to be very subjective and based on the person. RN experience acclimates you to the healthcare industry, exposes you to diseases and treatments, and increases or competence communicating the physicians, patients, and families. However, the RN role is VERY different from the NP role - and no amount of RN experience will help you think like a provider - that’s what our advanced education, training, and PROVIDER experience is for.
The studied you cited importantly compare nurses in environments where they are able to collaborate with physicians. It has been proven that completely independent nurses have worse health outcomes for patients.
Where I live you pay to see specialist doctors but what you really get is NPs. They are taking over and one doctor has multiple working for him so it’s definitely just a way to increase the amount of money their practice is getting. I’m paying full price for off brand product.
As a NP you shouldnt be able to administer cleareance of work physicals unless you have experience in the field that you are performing the work physical for. I was denied even recently not denied but put on so many prescriptions because of a medicine i was legally prescribed to since i was in my early 20's i will lose this job even though its my career & have 28 years of professional experience doing it & have NEVER had a accident. My primary physician not only called her up but told her he had me on this Medicaine as a safety issue to control my anxiety. She blew him off stating that "she didnt care & that she thought it was to dangerous for me to be working on". He typed & faxed her a formal letter which I will be bringing to a "work place lawyer" tommorow to try to help end all of this foolishness by unproperly trained doctors with no experince in
most universities require 1-2 years of experience in an area relevant to your specialty of practice for the NP program you are going into. Very few do not require RN experience.
Most FNP programs I’ve seen don’t require RN experience although may help your admissions profile. For ACNP, ENP, PNP, etc you usually do need a good 1-2 years before applying
I was recently accepted to medical school and Ill be starting in July. Ive been considering giving it up and pursuing NP. Reality is starting to hit me about medical school that Ill have zero life for the next 8 years as well as massive debt, not to mention Im getting old (career change from being a paramedic for 8 years). I keep flip flopping on DO vs NP. Part of me says suck it up and be a doctor and the other part says enjoy your life and be an NP.
There isn't an easy answer for this one. There are definite pros and cons of each path. I don't know your specific situation, but if practicing medicine to it's full extent is your goal then I would suggest sticking with Med School. Understand that your life won't be put on hold, life will move on and you will experience more than just school (although learning medicine will be the most time consuming i'm sure). The debt is for sure a factor as well, but depending on which specialty - you can pay this off pretty quickly. NP school isn't the cheapest either, and our salaries are often 1/3 that of a physician. However, being an NP truly does offer flexibility, balance, and not as much of an investment (time or money). Would you be okay with not knowing almost everything (but instead knowing who to refer to or which resources to use to find the information)? Both are very rewarding, but you've already made it so far on the path to med school. You've been accepted! Really consider everything you'd be giving up by switching to nursing. To become an NP you'd first have to become an RN with BSN, then MSN. This would take 4-6 years alone. Honestly, If it were me in your shoes - I would pick Med school.
It is okay to work being a doctor. Though I am a FNP I cannot compare my title to a MD they have more hours and indept knowledge in what they do. It is a choice what one wants to do. Either way it is a good move!!!
Then you will NEVER be looked at as a doctor nor should you be because your not nor will you ever be. NP my ass..you should never be allowed to do the things a Shitty DOCTOR allows you to do. Perhaps you'll truly harm someone or worse with your lack of true medical knowledge and they will make an example out of you and put a stop to this awful world of complete horse shit that all of you NP's and PA's live in. It's a disgrace and completely disrespectful to REAL DOCTORS. They spent many,many years to hold the title of Doctor,Physician. And then have some clown like a nurse playing doctor take away or tarnish what they worked so long and hard for. It should be outlawed and handled with severe consequences and hopefully when it's discovered how many people you've harmed or worse it will be. Have a great day NURSE!
@@sandyshores8817 you need to calm down.ok. Nurse Practitioners are well trained and equiped to handle their duties as a doctor. The only difference is the years in training. Nurses have more medical experiences while doctors have more medical knowledge. They both need each other. So stop being irrational about your thoughts towards Nurses especially Nurse Practitioners plus NP can learn the extent of medical knowledge that a doctor has. No one is better than no one. Have a nice day
@@sandyshores8817 I feel the same way. I have just been accepted into med school and all the people around me who are NPs keeps laughing at me. They tell me how after all these struggle, we will be the same. It's sad to me.
Was a thesis required at the end of your NP program? I want to be a nurse practitioner but I'm most worried about having to do and complete a thesis at the end of my MSN program. I've seen some say that it isn't required but others that say it is.
MerpTheNarwhal it depends on the program. As far as I know a thesis isn’t required. However my program has an extended literature review that we had to complete - but we basically worked on it for 2 semesters. Otherwise, thesis’s are more common in doctorate work
@@WillKellyNP Some universities I am considering offer a Bachelor's in Nursing Sciene rather than Bachelor's of Science in Nursing. Is there a significant difference that you know of and would this affect my eligibility to get into a MSN program or a job as an NP?
@@merpthenarwhal9759 I really have never heard of a Bachelor's of nursing science? Google isn't showing me much either. All I know is that BSN is the standard and most graduate programs require a BSN from what I have seen
The Bachelor of Science in Medicine Major in Nursing (BSN, BScN) also known in some countries as a Bachelor of Nursing (BN) or Bachelor of Science(BS) with a Major in Nursing is an academic degreein the science and principles of nursing, granted by an accredited tertiary education provider. The course of study is typically three or four years. The difference in degree designation may relate to the amount of basic science courses required as part of the degree, with BScN and BSN degree curriculums requiring completion of more courses on math and natural sciences that are more typical of BSc degrees (e.g. calculus, physics, chemistry, biology) and BN curriculums more focused on nursing theory, nursing process, and teaching versions of general science topics that are adapted to be more specific and relevant to nursing practice. Been working as a nurse for almost 8 years as a trauma nurse and have only seen 1 nurse with RN, BscN, instead of RN,BSN looks very odd
A fellowship is additional training for MDs or DOs (physicians). It can last anywhere for 1-3 years. This is done after the MD/DO has already completed their 3-7 year residency after graduating medical school. For doctors to specialize in something rheumatology, we have to do YEARS of training in order to specialize. For NPs to specialize, they can take 2-3 online day courses. Consider then when you see a "specialist." Personally, I would rather have someone with years of experience, than someone who got an online certification in a matter of days.
Not just years, but also scope of training and the depth of medical knowledge learned over those years. Even a medical student finishing their 1st year has already surpassed the NP with years of experience, because nursing experience doesn't mean anything. The problem with the fool who made this video is that he thinks a flight attendant will be able to do a pilot's job by walking around the plane for a bunch of years.
This is informative. And I thank you for your research in clarifying this for the public. I think however you ignored the MCAT, the three boards to pass medical school and then the boards to become a doctor-- which you did note for nursing. I would heavily argue that the nurses aren't getting 5-15 years experience prior to np school most that I have seen are 1 or less. While you also failed to mention the previous expertise hours to applying to medical school and the clinical. Would you share your opinion on the changes to oversight?
Sara, I really appreciate your well-thought-out response. You're right - I definitely should have mentioned the shadowing experience than many med schools prefer their candidates to have (as many have pointed out to me in the comments). As for the MCAT as well as the multiple board exams that physicians must take - that was an actual oversight. I did not include everything for time, but if I mentioned the board certifications briefly for nursing I should have also mentioned them for med school/residents. I will post a comment to the top outlining these oversights. As far as the 5-15 years of experience, there was no specific data I could find regarding the average age of nurses when the matriculate into NP school. It was more of a gestalt average. However, I have first-hand experience with my NP colleagues and within my NP program. I myself only had 1 year of FT RN experience before starting NP school - I do not hide this. I worked FT throughout my program so that I had almost 4 years by the time I started my NP job. However, my colleagues in NP school as well as my colleagues in real life have been considerably older than me and had considerably more experience as bedside RNs prior to attending NP school, consistent with my rough estimate. I realize this is purely anecdotal - I just gave a very vague range and was sure to say that there is no minimum requirement. Thank you again for your polite response. I in no way meant to diminish the physician path or insult med students and the physician community as I have a massive amount of respect for them and the very difficult path of becoming a physician.
Lots of comments posts here and everyone's looking to distinguish themselves for merits achieved. The common narrative Im seeing is that time, in hours, equates to being a better provider/patient outcomes. This just isnt the case. NPs are taught to hone in on one aspect of medicine, and thats why the pathway takes less time than that of doctors (though not by much). Furthermore, the reality of learning as a student differs from practice as you forfeit most of what you've learned once you enter the workforce in exchange for memorizing hospital/clinic protocols. A newly minted practitioner will especially tell you that. I've met shitty doctors and shitty NPs. In the end its not a measure of how long one's head has been in a book long enough to regurgitate information on an exam, but how passionate they are in what they do.
NPs have less knowledge and skills compared to physicians due to their lack of extensive training. It is simple as that. In addition, there are only videos of NPs comparing NPs and Physicians and "what the better route is". This is some attempt to equalize them. However, you will never see a video from an MD on that matter because they know they are superior. Not different, superior. Sometimes the truth hurts but thats the truth. If you want more knowledge, better cognitive training on systematic way of thinking and more skill then become and MD. Society rewards experties not mediocracy that the NPs bring
Some programs will let you, but it’s highly encouraged to gain some experience before. People who go straight into NP school after BSN are often frowned upon
Stephanie Taylor it really depends on what you want and what the program you applied to wants. Some you can get in right after with no experience. A lot of them require 1-2 years of experience. Many of the people I know went after 2-5 years of experience
You would need your RN certification, most likely your BSN, then apply to NP programs. You can see more info here ua-cam.com/video/3RyalfewLR0/v-deo.html
Hey Will, can you talk about the job saturation within the NP world. I want to get into the profession but am worrying about paying for school and not getting the financial return if hospitals are not hiring.
and to actually know more... DO/MD is not an equivalent level of training. Patient care will go down as the current online accelerated model of DNP becomes mainstream. Patients will die due to the AANP.
This was my "wtf" moment when watching his video. "You'll get bragging rights with a MD but remember you wont get paid well until after residency." It's so incredibly cringey listening to someone who hasn't experienced a med school education talk about what we want and why we're doing it.
I am a medical student. Along the way, some premeds that I studied with ended up choosing other careers, including nurse practitioner. As such, there is a sense among the community of viewing NP as a backup option. That being said, I think they will help bridge the gap in primary health care needs.
Perfect job. Love this, as a BSN,RN who will be going for my NP. Love the edits, description and facts. It’s very important for people to not be dismissive of NPs but also aware that MDs clinical hours and studies are vigorous, yet well deserved. All parties are important to healthcare, it just depends on the preference of the person. 💛
They should always be dismissive as they should. Why? BECAUSE YOUR NOT A DOCTOR. Your some clown playing doctor and should be unemployed for doing so right along side the pathetic so called DOCTOR that allowed you to play make believe. Your dangerous and people's lives are put at risk because of people like yourself. Somebody do the research and lets see how many patients have been harmed or killed because of people like you. I bet it's a staggering number.
Yes. A NP can go on to obtain their DNP (doctorate Nurse Practitioner). DNP and MD are very different programs. NP does not require med school and I would argue is a different practice of medicine. I believe by 2025, if one wants to become a nurse anesthesiologists which is currently a graduate program, you must obtain your DNP-CNA (doctorate certified nurse anesthetist) which is the highest nursing degree and paying very, very well.
I think this video has a lot of good basic information, some of the later information questionable--for instance equating bedside nursing as logged clinical education time or the equivalent of residency training hours. A residency is more rigorous than OTJ training, and is much more than a 9-5 job; it is more about living and breathing one's specialty for years to become closely acquainted with how physicians make decisions, and it is this level of training that med students, residents, and attendings all strive for agree is necessary. As a resident going through the process of becoming an attending physician I can tell you that what I'm seeing is significant resentment and backlash toward midlevels--NP and PA--by medical students, residents, and attending physicians for what is seen as shortcutting to a higher salary in healthcare without having achieving the necessary training. What this equates to is a significant loss of respect of the traditional medical education training paradigm for personal gain, not for the well-being of patients. The perception among my resident colleagues is that midlevels will inevitably obtain their own independent licensure in all 50 states due to continued lobbying pressure to go in this direction. The AANP bypassed the AMA and simply went straight to state legislatures and begged for their "rights" under the guise that the nursing board is sufficient to guide medical practice as a parallel entity and that patients will benefit somehow either in the form of equivalent outcomes (questionable) and lead to less medical expenditure overall (incorrect). The legislative process is worsening this problem by enabling patients to make their own decisions -- this is wrong and the nursing board knows it: patients are not equipped to make good healthcare decisions and it is normally the role of physicians to help them make those decisions or at least present them with the correct information. What I would tell a trainee becoming a NP/PA now -- don't expect to be respected by physicians as experts. If you make your career decision absolutely knowing you were not going to get the best training, don't expect to be called an expert, and don't expect to be seen as an equal member of the "team". The next generation of physicians over this decade will likely see fewer physicians wanting to work with midlevels as both "collaborators" and consultants because of how their lobbying boards have soured our relationship. Be prepared for backlash.
Haha, so scared of your backlash. Dude, are you serious. Your rich parents bought your degrees. You didn’t really earn it, well you were forced to study like a squirrel day and night. don’t be mad at us, for being wiser. Yet, here we are at the same work space, seeing patients. You can stay mad, and do no threat nobody. Clown.
Everyone wants to be an MD or DO but they ain't willing (or able) to go thru med school
I’d argue willingness has nothing to do with it. If you’re naturally smart you can make it happen with some effort. If you’re an idiot you’ll get weeded out in Gen Chem and end up making trash UA-cam videos like this clown
@@yeeyee378 no that's fucking stupid. you can be an idiot and work hard, and become smart, and become a doctor.
@@yeeyee378 Willingness has a lot to do with it. Lot of people are smart but aren't willing to put up with the crazy hours of residency, high student loan debt, and waiting so long to finally receive a paycheck. Rather than put up with all they'd prefer to make money at an earlier age, work reasonable hours, and not go into debt.
@@aahsimovieprojects At the expense of not having the same skillset and knowledge level of an MD/DO. There is a trade off, hence when MD/DO's dont take it lightly when an NP tries to say they have the same job roles and they are the same level as an MD/DO.
@@sfujimoto14 Oh for sure, I would never argue that an NP/PA has anywhere near the same level of knowledge as an MD/DO. It's just not always true that someone goes that route simply because they couldn't get in. I graduated with a 3.5 from a top 20 private, and while MD would be a stretch I could have easily gotten in DO. I chose Psych NP just because going to DO would have taken me 6+ extra years to become a psychiatrist and would set me back 500k in total debt by the time I could start paying off the loans. Instead I graduated with zero loan debt, and am earning a six figure paycheck years earlier. It's an easier route with certain tradeoffs, but getting accepted wasn't a concern.
MD/DO : 4 year undergraduate + premed prereqs (if not a bio/chem major)
-MCAT
Gap year (usually filled with research,shadowing, volunteer,)
2 years of HEAVY basic sciences generally 16 credit terms.
Step 1 (currently the most important exam to decide residency...this will change when pass/fail go into effect)
2 years clerkship+electives (rotations in core specialties) with specialty specific shelf exams.
Step 2 (also important exam)
Match into residency.
Work 3-4 years in residency
Become an attending...
As a first year you come out of school with over 5000 clinical hours two years of extensive basic sciences (on top of your undergrad) and rotations in specialties lasting 6-12 weeks each.
NP
3 year associate degree with prereqs (statistics, A/P 1 & 2, microbiology)
1 year fluff BSN
2-3 year MSN/DNP 35% interesting, 65% fluff.
some MSN/DNP do not require even a year of RN experience....
I am an RN (with my BSN) turning MD.
What do you mean by "fluff"?
@@monalletinie143 fluff is rudimentary APA papers, and discussion posts. RN-BSN programs like to mask how easy it is with intense sounding concepts. It is a joke.
Your RN program will be challenging.
Time management, didactics mixed with clinicals. Coming form normal undergrad, some students have issues shifting into this academic workload.
But this doesn't hold a candle to becoming an MD/DO (regarding academic rigor, stamina, and time).
If your heart is in nursing then you will love it.
If your heart is in medicine but you choose nursing to become a nurse practitioner you will be sorely disappointed.
@@AZ-wg3eg that makes a lot of sense, i'm a first semester nursing student. And it's extremely difficult, and i love studying it, but i agree it's not as difficult as med school. In my country this works different, med school is a 6 year undergrad program here, so i could still change and aply to med school instead. So idk if nursing is the right path for me, i feel like my heart is in it, but i always find myself wishing i could become a doctor instead. But i feel like my reasons to choose medicine are not good enough, i like it mostly for the sense of prestige and accomplishment it brings, because even a well studied nurse practitioner will never be seen as a doctor. While my reasons to choose nursing are more realistic, i actually enjoy the tasks and roles of nurses more. So i feel sorely disappointed over choosing nursing, but that doesn't mean medicine is for me. Sorry for this completely unnecessary rant. I guess what i'm trying to say is i agree with you somehow, but in the end it's only a good decision for some people and not everyone stuck between both decisions. There's a lot of factors.
@@monalletinie143 Even if your decision to become a physician is based on ego, it is important to understand that you know yourself better than anyone else. If you know that 10 years from now as a nurse practitioner you feel constantly inadequate, wishing you went for your MD/DO, and longing to be the leader...then cut your losses and chase your dream.
As a physician you will be able to lead research, lead an interdisciplinary healthcare team of the patient, coordinate care, and know you have taken the path many do not want to go.
Everyone's situation is different, and at the end of the day like I said, only you know yourself and what decision to make.
Valentina M. C. - I feel EXACTLY the same way
Your numbers are misleading. Even if the average RN experience is 5-15 years, it still isn’t a requirement of becoming an NP. People on the MD path usually spend a considerable amount of hours in clinical settings to even apply for medical school in the first place and you fail to mention that. Your numbers of exposure are biased towards NP.
I tried to be as objective and non-biased as I could be, but I am human and it would be ignorant to assume there is no bias. However - I was not trying to be misleading. I state in the video (and multiple times throughout the accompanying article) that RN experience varies, there is no minimum amount for most schools, and that it does not equate to provider education/training. Even so, RN experience can play a large role in a new NPs competence.
While I didn't mention healthcare exposure or shadowing hours required for most med schools, I did mention it in my blog post linked above. However, I do not equate shadowing or even medical scribe experience to formal RN on-the-job experience - but that is just my opinion. Thank you for pointing it out - I will be sure to include it in any future relevant videos!
@@WillKellyNP "However, I do not equate shadowing or even medical scribe experience to formal RN on-the-job experience - but that is just my opinion." Equating nursing hours to resident training is not equivalent either.
Exactly. This video wouldve been good, but it's just jam-packed with bias and bs. Inferences are incompetently selected
Nurses. Nurse practitioners. Physicians.
Been through em all and I always go back to my NP preferably. I wonder if its just me or they are more personable. Idk. Just brainstorming.
Rouge But Here lol hopefully this doesn’t happen to you, but when you have more life threatening issues, you want to go the physician route. Or at least an NP under strict supervision of a physician
Bob cooked at McDonalds for 15 years and took a 4 month cooking class at his local community college.
Bruce trained as a chef in multiple countries for 4 years, worked as a sous chef for 7 years and is now an executive chef at a 5 star restaurant.
Bob made a video about how he is almost as skilled as Bruce.
Hahaha...heart of line cook, brain of a master chef.
This is the funniest thing I’ve ever read!!!
Ngl this is pretty funny and I’m a nurse 😂
@@virn4699 finally...someone with a sense of humor! Lol
THANK YOU!!!! DOCTORS WORK YEARS TO MASTER MEDICINE BUT LETS LET NP's THINK THEY ARE JUST AS GOOD AS DOCTORS WITH THEIR ONLINE DEGREE THEY GOT IT 16 MONTHS.
I’m married to an MD. I know several mid-level providers (yes, I know they are called APPs now). An NP is not an MD, while respect that community, as well as PAs, this growing movement to pretend that you are equivalent to an MD needs to end - east is east and west is west and never the two shall meet.
Joey Moree this video does not imply that NPs are equivalent to physicians. Different professions, different levels of education/training, but similar roles in healthcare (dx, treatment, etc) - often with NPs collaborating with physicians. I am very happy to collaborate with mine :)
@@WillKellyNP saying similar health roles is saying both are equivalent . I fear in next coming decades USA will have only these psuedo doctors. At one point america was considered top in physician education. No other nation allows shortcuts to NP training like USA does.
You need to calm down he never said they were equivalent you sound threatened NPs are just as prestigious
Amen. Thank you so much for attempting to make these people understand that " THEY ARE NOT DOCTORS."
@@sandyshores8817 who said that?? Is the first time that I heard that :v.
Haha relax
This is super misleading to anyone who doesn’t work in health care. Most people pursuing NP/CRNA don’t have 5 years experience as a nurse. They even have direct nurse to NP now. On top of that, 5-15 years experience as a nurse is just not that conducive to medicine. Why? Because those aren’t 5-15 years spent developing treatment plans, learning about disease and pathophys, treating patients and following their course, learning from treatment mistakes, learning from other physicians. It’s 5-15 years following orders, and it’s typically the same orders involving the same patient population because most people work on the same type of unit for years. Even if a nurse works in the ICU, they are doing the same 20-30 tasks day in and day out. That’s not learning medicine. You would have 5-15 year emts/paramedics becoming ER physicians with this mentality. It’s wrong, it’s foolish, and it’s misleading to patients. This is super misleading to anyone who doesn’t work in health care. Most people pursuing NP/CRNA don’t have 5 years experience as a nurse. They even have direct nurse to NP now. On top of that, 5-15 years experience as a nurse is just not that conducive to medicine. Why? Because those aren’t 5-15 years spent developing treatment plans, learning about disease and pathophys, treating patients and following their course, learning from treatment mistakes, learning from other physicians. It’s 5-15 years following orders, and it’s typically the same orders involving the same patient population because most people work on the same type of unit for years. Even if a nurse works in the ICU, they are doing the same 20-30 tasks day in and day out. That’s not learning medicine. You would have 5-15 year emts/paramedics becoming ER physicians with this mentality. It’s wrong, it’s foolish, and it’s misleading to patients.
No truer words have been spoken
You did not have to repeat the same thing twice lol
On paper you’re right, nurses are way less experienced than physicians with developing care plans and prescribing meds all based on pt specific disease processes. In the real world, you couldn’t be more wrong. Most Nurses know the necessary info on disease processes and meds like the back of their hand, and often times catch the doctors on care plan mistakes. At most facilities/hospitals, the nurses have 30 minutes to make a decision for the pt aligning with the care plan that then can get approved by the MD. Ofc that intervention is already underway but for legal reasons, it’s approved and in a written order within 30 minutes. There are the Nurses that do rush to NP school, which I agree is reckless but if they meet the necessary testing and clinical requirements...they’re considered professionally competent. Then go on to shadow for a little while and care for pts under supervision before the hospital deems them competent. Both practices are good at what they do, don’t discount them for their hard work.
@@RyanWilliams18 Lets give them also surgery rights if they are such a good at treatment.
Nurses focus on Nursing Diagnosis/related treatments, not Medical the ones, we should not confuse the role of each of these health providers.
I think you forgot that Nurses Practice is Based on EBP as well as physician (see Evidence Based Nursing) so there are a variety of tasks that aren't the same for even the same population (even into a ICU for example), because everyone is different and a different and personalized care is required for each patient (read Nursing process to Expand your knowledge about nursing world/school).
So please do not spread false and ignorant beliefs That damages people's perception of the roles I mentioned.
And I hope from the bottom of my heart that many people will open their minds and update their beliefs about what I said
😄
You comparisons are disingenuous. You're are intentionally stacking as much as you can on the NP side to make it seem on the surface equivalent as a new physician. You know there are NPs who graduate with no nursing work experience but intentionally don't include them in the comparison. If you are going to compare new graduates, then include new graduates with no work experience with a caveat that there are nurses who work professionally before entering into NP school.
I did mention that there is no formal requirement for many programs, however the MAJORITY of NPs have RN experience prior to working as an NP. So your caveat would be disingenuous. I also was not claiming that NPs are equivalent to new physicians - this video outlines the vast differences in education and training
@@WillKellyNP When people compare admission requirements to any graduate school, they put in the minimum requirements. What you did was only put the minimum requirements for medical school and did not do the same for nurse practitioner school. This is disingenuous. You literally say "there is no minimum amount of experience required for most NP programs" This means you take out the 5-15 years experience. The only reason a lot NPs had prior nursing experience was because in the past NP schools required prior nursing experience. But that changed today.
Will Kelly, NP there are so many programs that are a straight pipeline to NP. Please stop making Yourself seem better than a doctor. It’s honestly pathetic
@@evanwhite2680 I do not think NP > Physician. But I do think NP is a great alternative with its own set of pros and cons. Definitely less schooling and training, usually more oversight, definitely less pay
But why is everyone so triggered?! It’s the equivalent of y’all acting like he claimed his penis to be bigger than the rest and now you are all here angry l, pulling out yours saying “no mine is the biggest!”. The egos here are ridiculous! Do you really think that he is trying to discredit physicians?! I can tell who went to school just so they could get that MD and feed their bloated egos even more from those that went to school because they are truly passionate about the art of medicine and patient care. Shameful 🤦🏾♀️
As a physician for over a decade I've never once mistaken an NP note for a physician's and I can tell within the first 30 seconds of any verbal communication that someone is who fails to properly introduce him/herself is a physician or not. NPs play an important role in healthcare delivery, but the gap in medical knowledge is apparently obvious to any physician.
How elitist of you, I'm glad you continue to portray the stereotype that doctors are insufferable douches that can't comprehend a NP in their practice. The 1950's are calling you Mr. Edward.
Texting you from Germany and here the system is different. I personally would like to hear the opinion of a nurse but I would never want her to make a decision because in Germany the doctor is the one who owns the responsibility and nurses simply don’t have the Knowledge that a doc has. I find the System in the US very ridiculous. If these people can give the patients medication, why don’t they attend the surgery and operate on patients? Giving the patients medication is also an invasive attack. I would not feel safe in the US.
The health care industry is saturated with np's and I don't trust them. I came across too many that don't know what they are doing.
Can you elaborate?
Hi, you probably wont be able to respond to this, but i would like to gather your opinion on how an NP (specifically an FNP) can increase medical skills. I just got accepted into FNP school today and I've recently just started on reviewing A&P then moving onto pathophysiology, and then organic chemistry. Ive always loved the medical aspects present in nursing and, while I am not becoming a physician, I would like to know how to become a competent nurse practitioner. I am sure that there are many who do not know what they are doing, but I am determined to become a competent FNP. I would likely never own my own practice, but I would like to be a very knowledgeable FNP that physicians are comfortable working with and think "this guy actually knows what he is doing". Like I said, i have already started on studying A&P and plan on studying pathophysiology and O-chem in my spare time, but what else can I do to help fill in that medical knowledge deficit (even though I am fully aware that I will likely never compare to an MD, certainly not straight out of NP school at least)? Thank you very much. I appreciate it.
It’s pretty disingenuous to insinuate that NPs and MDs/DOs have similar roles in health care. They absolutely do not. For starters patient load is no where near the same. Neither are the daily hours.
breea07 patient load really depends on the clinical setting, as many outpatient primary care NPs are seeing just as many patients as physicians. NPs and physicians both manage acute and chronic conditions - so it’s pretty fair to say they have similar roles. NPs often will need to have collaboration with physicians but still maintain a decent amount of autonomy, especially in primary care. I’m not sure if this is an issue with “disingenuous” information, or bruised egos. Either way - this video is not about falsely elevating NPs and diminishing physicians. I tried to provide an objective perspective of the similarities and differences between the two. I love my collaborating physicians and am happy for the increased work life balance and decreased patient load (in my inpatient setting).
@@WillKellyNP those poor patients
@@WillKellyNP lol. NPs see a small fraction of the patient load MDs do. I always find it funny seeing NP notes when looking through a pts EMR history. The void of thought and educational context is huge
@Agatha Romeiro indeed. The intensity of MD medical education is intense. Medical school and residency holds you over a very hot fire until you can know what youre doing. NPs walk in and get coddled as they go through
Also residency is more like 3-7 years with additional 1-4 years for fellowship. This junk is so ridiculously inaccurate.
Life's most difficult question should I become a doctor or Kylie Jenner
Cracked me up 😂😂
Kylie
Kylie MD
These programs are a joke. There are NP schools are diploma mills that require NO bedside experience, completely ONLINE, and have close to 100% acceptance. Can the same be said for medical school?
I cackled at him saying premeds have zero clinical hours. Good luck getting into medical school with no clinical experience. Most people who actually get in have >1000 hours.
Implying that MD/DO training/responsibly is even on the same order of magnitude of difficulty as DNP training/responsibility is completely crazy.
Well guess what. NPs in most the nation are able to run their own primary care clinic. And the research shows they do well.
@@lucascooper3613 The ReSeArCh you are referring to is a bunch of blatantly biased low powered studies funded by either Cochrane, the AANP, or both. Actual reliable research can't be performed due to ethical issues.
@@lucascooper3613 well guess what, you aren’t going to a primary care clinic and have an NP check your headache only to have a physician find out on an ct for a epidural hematoma now are you?
But for a few stitches and a lollypop? Yeah sure, let the NP do that, no need for a physician.
@@lucascooper3613 If by well you mean more expensive and more complications than yes.
No honey, doctors and NPs do not have similar job roles of course
Do you even work in healthcare at the bedside as a practicing clinician? Or perhaps your specific location or facility does not utilize NPs in such a manner
@@WillKellyNP the problem is you are too far down on the Dunning Kruger scale to know why what you are saying is so flawed or why your reasoning makes no sense.
@@WillKellyNP I find it quiet sad that we have a great disconnect in these comments. We as healthcare providers need to understand that ego should not be the basis of our arguments. Likewise, I do not recall this video speaking poorly of physicians, but I found it to give a general view ( not entirely accurate, but that wasn't the point of the video). Moreover, I recommended learning to be humble regardless of a degree because there is a difference in pride and arrogance. We need to work as a team for our patients, and we need to see eachother as assets.
@@connornoble5728 true. Except the issue nowadays is that nurses are trying to creep the authority ladder up and further perpetuate the nonsense that they are or feel as equal to a physician and that’s pure nonsense and NEEDS to stop. Until nurses realise their place and function, this discourse will just go on and on. This has nothing to do with ego, this has everything to do WITH THE SAFETY OF THE PATIENT. Things like prescription and diagnostis authoritiy should remain with physician for a reason. Sure, there are certain things a nurse can take over from a physician. But there are things physicians can do that nurses CAN NOT. Due to higher clinical authorities, we are also bound to clinical liabilities while nurses are not. Yes, work as a team. Meaning each has their tasks and responsibilities. It’s however a shame that nurses feel the need into thinking they can bridge authority barriers and pretend to be something they are not qualified be. It’s dangerous.
Wow such terrible info. Residency is 3-7 years by the way. And a lot of Med students have to take time off of school to even get into medical school, just like NP. You’re forgetting that residents get formal education and go into specific specialties... while NPs get trained “on the job”
did you just reiterate what he said in 5he video. all of this was stated.
If you value your health and your loved ones health, I would advise you to always ask to be seen by a PHYSICIAN = MD or DO
🥱🙄 doesn’t matter who you get MDs make mistake too
There’s good and bad in every profession, I’ve worked alongside some brilliant APRNs
I don't know, I prefer seeing my NP for basic primary care visits. Before I had some MD, but turns out he went to a Caribbean medical school and somehow gets to practice in Florida. He failed to diagnose an issue I was having, meanwhile I saw this NP and she figured it out within a single visit.
This isn't borne out by the data. NPs provide equivalent care in every single study done (and many studies have established superior patient outcomes). So weird how many internet warriors on this video without a shred of education...
I get seen by both and they are both good
No offense to NPs, but why are you trying to make it look comparable to doctors when it so obviously isnt.
hes obviously biased
The training is different but the they end up doing the same things.
Nursing has evolved and are side by side with doctors during to patients demands.doctors should also evolve and specialise in their fields and become experts while NP and PA do what doctors are doing now.
Yes carreers evolve and there's nothing you can do about it.
Nursing is not 18 century Nursing
Some of them are more informed than doctors and I have seen million times nurses correcting doctors daa
@@rahmamohamed9664 stop lying to yourself. While NPs and Doctors may share some of the same responsibilities and the same tasks, the training and knowledge required to be any type of doctor trumps that of the NP.
@@tubbehht9236 knowledge comes in different forms .Nurses go through intense practice and are 24 hours with the patients that alone speaks volumes. I don't deny doctors are taught formally for many years and taught to understand disease patterns nurses on the other hand are practically involved with patients in the wards from year 1.
We do different roles from doctors and we use the nursing model as opposed to the medical model.while doctors understand and become experts in their fields so is different disciplines like pharmacists radiographers etc.you doctors can strive to be experts in your fields.
For nursing the sky is the limit and can become doctorates in their specific field.so go on doc
Jesus, they are the same at the end. One studies loads of theory the other learns on the job. Also a doctor is not always a medic. Also, everyone equates the word doctor with physician. A doctorate can be done on anything, theology, music, nursing etc. Finally, I think people don't understand the difference between a nurse and a nurse practitioner. Here in the UK an NP can even do surgeries.
As many other physicians have pointed out the comments, this video is misleading. 5-15 years of RN experience? That is by far the exception, not the average NP. Most have less than 2 years. Also RN experience is irrelevant to being a "provider". You don't make medical management decisions as an RN and their pathophysiology and pharmacology are minimum as nursing curriculum's are diluted with nursing theory classes. Sure, they can observe a doctor doing Y in response to X but they likely don't know why. If they do, they don't know the next option and when to not use Y. Nurses know logistics well and they do bring that into NP school but that's something that can be learned quickly and easily as young physicians do all the time.
You need to revise your video to correct the part about premed students not getting any experience to medicine. Most premed students have significant clinical experience, in addition to research, volunteering, and leadership that you left off your board.
Kumar Sukhdeo MD PhD I didn’t mean to imply that they had absolutely no exposure - but they usually do not have any formal clinical experience. I know that they usually do have some type of job-related shadowing or health-care exposure required for most med schools as well - I should have mentioned that in the video in retrospect
@@WillKellyNP Most medical students have far more clinical hours of shadowing than NPs do when they GRADUATE. I had more than 500 hours of clinical shadowing before starting medical school. Not to mention research, leadership and volunteer work. This is pretty much a requirement for getting into medical school. If you do not have all these things, then you simply don't get accepted.
@@abuzar1 Please see my response directly above. This info was added to the attached article. However, I hope you are not suggesting that the ~500 hours of shadowing or job experience as a CNA, tech, scribe, etc is comparable to ~700 hours of clinical learning to be a provider. During NP clinicals you are not observing. You are taking what you learn in NP school, and learning how to think as a Provider in terms of history taking, physical assessment, diagnosis, interpretation, and clinical management and education. This video by NO means was intended to diminish the medical degree route - in fact, it is a route that i HIGHLY respect and if you watch the video I think that is apparent
Will Kelly, NP yeah and hours as a nurse should not be equated to hours as a resident. Just not the same right?
@@lolalolalola3801 I literally don’t equate them. If you watch the video I say that.
Wow. They weren’t kidding when they said you had the IQ of bread.
I'm here from reddit also.
Bear1234
Ayeee r/residency
Yaseen El-Idrisi what’s up fam?
From r/residency as well
This is like comparing a chihuahua to a wolf.
whos who
@@Kevin-on3xv np is chihuahua and doc is wolf obviously
please tell us your occupation.................okay, i thought so!
Current 3rd, going on 4th year medical student. I had roughly 4000 hours of medical experience during undergrad by working as a CNA and medical scribe before even applying to medical school. Many of my classmates had the same experience if not more. We completed this medical experience while in college finishing our degrees + prereqs which are objectively more rigorous and dive deeper physiologically compared to nursing degrees. A premed without clinical experience applying to medical school is an automatic rejection nowadays. To say that premeds don't have comparable medical experience in undergrad is misleading, we have plenty experience, it is just not built into our degrees.
Wasn't intended to be misleading. I added this info in the accompanying blog linked above. In the video I more meant that the actual education of Pre-med doesn't incorporate any substantial clinical experience, but I should have included a sentence clarifying this. I also forgot to mention that many RN students work as patient care assistants as well.
Premed students do not have any medical experience compared to RNs. How do I know? I've a biology degree and took the same classes as premed students. There is nothing in those premed classes that prepares you as a MD. 2 biology, 2 physics, 2 organic chemistry, 2 general chemistry, calculus, and 2 English, 1 biochemistry. Are you fking kidding, that's not medicine. Go read up on RN books and you will see that a RN knows what a 4th year med student knows. I'm an RN and a NP now. I know what I'm talking about. The only thing that RNs don't know that NPs later learn is differential diagnosis. I work in internal medicne (IM) and the physicians I work with are always commending me on how much I know without going thru an official IM residency. Obviously they don't know how much we learn in RN and NP school. Get off your high horse. NPs are here to stay.
@@hhc1948 Wow you are so off.. Will leave this comment not just for you, but for other potential young students who are deciding on a career. There is no real similarity between RN's medical knowledge and a 4th year MD student that is an insane comparison! The medical model of training is completely different than nursing. Furthermore, premedical students need to excel in their premed classes and score high on rigorous exams like the MCAT because their medical training requires a strong foundation in first principles. For example, a solid understanding of organic chemistry and biochemistry is necessary to appreciate the nuances of pathophysiology and pharmacology. Your NP degree (Assuming it was a legit program not an online diploma mill) has given you some surface knowledge of medical subjects and you can do some basic, routine, and repetitive tasks. Please do not confuse that with the strenous process of becoming an attending physician. There are no shortcuts to gain mastery and medicine is hard. You say that you work in IM and I am sure you have accumulated some knowledge over time. The challenge in medicine is not just knowing what you do know but also what you do not know (and it is a lot that you do not know). If you fail to appreciate this, you may be falling victim to the Dunning-Kruger effect (Common among mid levels).
@Manuel Tory like I said. I have a BSc in biology, and took biochemistry and organic chemistry along with all the premed classes. So I do know what I'm talking. Premed classes is not medical knowledge.
You said "There is nothing in those premed classes that prepares you as an MD" and my comment was an attempt to explain how theose classes are the foundations that allow medical students appreciate the nuances of medicine and gain expertise.
My biggest issue with NP’s is that many are now receiving their education online. In addition to this I have yet to meet a mid level that claims they have the same Knowledge as a Doc. If I just had to be brutally honest the education of a PA is a lot higher quality although they receive less practicing rights in many states than NP’s. I think this has a breaking point, and many NP’s, PA’s and physicians think it will be a major step back for patient care.
nurses lobby harder than PAs. that's the simple truth
PAs can have any bachelors deg + 2 yrs of clinical training while NPs have a BSN + a masters or doctorate deg with 6-8 years of clinical training. In the hospital PAs and NPs pretty much have the same respected role except NPs have more autonomy. Yes some NP programs have online components for lectures but all of the clinicals and hands on training is in person! Most PA & MD (any higher ed) programs also hold online lectures! Just want to clear up the misinformation!
@Fatboyudes I agree that the video should only compare PA to NPs. Physicians are in their own specialty. I could see if he was comparing Internal medicine physician to Family medicine physician. Misleading for certain.
@Fatboyudes There are no accredited programs that omit clinicals. That is just not true
@@cinnamon3220 So this video mainly is intended to outline the difference in education, training, and job-role for those who are up in the air about which one to choose. This is not to say that NPs are better than Physicians. If you want to check out my NP vs PA video - here it is! ua-cam.com/video/QBUSwQdFbdM/v-deo.html
A physicians depth of knowledge as a provider is much greater than an NP's. While NP's/PA's are very much needed in healthcare, they often do not know what they don't know. This is what distinguishes one from knowing whether a presentation is early MS, Bells or signs of a stroke. Yes, the path to becoming a physician is difficult and grueling but you honestly cannot compare it to the path to become an NP. 1. RN training does not equal provider training. Bedside exposure is beneficial in terms of terminology and communication w/ nurses but not very important in terms of diagnosis. 2. Nursing programs add so many fluff classes. 3. NP programs often times make you find your own clinical sites, which is not beneficial to learning. You are also only learning from the scope of that provider/NP/PA whereas MDs/DO's are trained as generalists then specialize. 4. NP's starting w/o residency is equivalent to a1st year resident w/ no experience.
Let me reiterate, PA's/NPs = great for healthcare. Although, it's hard to say which provider is "better". Both are different though they are definitely not a replacement for physicians. But ask yourself this...if you were really sick or had a family member that was critical, would you want a doctor doing the work up or the NP/PA? Yes, job roles are similar but NP's/PA's are not standalone providers hence why they work in collaboration. They aren't single handedly taking the complex cases that make medicine so appealing and worth the 10+ years of training.
Roy Johnson Roy Johnson thank you for watching and for the constructive feedback. Did you watch the entire video? I do mention that I believe physician training is more rigorous, your depth of knowledge will be much greater, you train in almost every specialty, and that many NPs will work in close collaboration with a physician. I also mention that RN experience has its benefits but is not equal to Clinicals learning to become a Provider.
As far as NP education, there are definitely improvements that can be made, but that is a different topic entirely.
My intent wasn’t to diminish the capabilities of a Physician. It was to provide an overview of the differences in education, training, and job role. Even though NPs have quite a bit less formal education and training (as I’ve stated in the video multiple times), I do believe our education/training is sufficient for our role within healthcare, as it seems you may agree.
As far as a sick critical family member - perhaps I should have been a little more clear about specialties. Critical care is obviously one which requires excellent clinicians. While I think NPs can be a great part of an ICU team, of course I would want an intensivist close by.
As far as your comment stating that NPs/PAs are not standalone providers - that is only partially true. PAs are not. NPs, however, have full practice authority in 21 states. Now this doesn’t mean an NP can go into any specialty (i.e. ICUs) and is equivalent to a Physician. But it does mean that they are legally considered Independent providers, especially within the scope of primary care.
I work inpatient and am personally very happy to have close collaboration with my attending physicians, as well as specialties, medical residents, and ICU intensivists.
Roy Johnson I respectfully disagree with at least a third of what you are saying. As a critical care/ ICU nurse I’ve been exposed to limitless medical knowledge- the 1 and 2 yr residents often have to consult with me to ascertain appropriate medical treatment: 1) Because i am the once who is constantly assessing and monitoring the patient. 2) Because, having been a nurse for 5yrs I am very familiar with treatments and protocol. 3) Repetitive behavior yields perfection!! You have to consider the speciality of the nurse and the rigorous training of that unit (medical/step-down ICU) plus the intensity of patient illness before making a claim like that. The more competent/knowledgeable a nurse is- the easier it is for providers, hands down.
Will Kelly, NP beautiful response
P Jr. that’s cool but you missed the point lol.
Roy Johnson how?
This is very misleading, although sadly typical of NP misinformation. First off, many NP programs are now entirely online, and do not require any nursing experience. Many can also be completed in less than two years. Additionally, 1 year of NP school is nowhere near equivalent to one year of med school! This also makes it sound as if they spend their time in NP school studying for a specific specialty, which is not the case. Most are FNPs, which is basic medical knowledge. Unfortunately, unlike physicians who do have very specialized training, NPs can freely jump around to whatever specialty they choose, many of which have little to do with what they studied. Compared to the minimum of 500 hours of clinical training for NPs (much of which is actually just shadowing), physicians have well over 10,000 hours of actual supervised clinical training, with gradually increasing responsibility. Despite the wins by a very strong nursing lobby, physicians are the only people who are adequately trained for independent practice. While healthcare is a team effort, physicians are the only appropriate leaders of that team.
The biggest problem with any midlevel will always be that you don’t know what you don’t know. And there is an awful lot that they don’t know.
Scott Levitt what about chiropractors? They are lobbying for prescriptive authority and some are wanting to be PCPs.
i.m. CXS equally dangerous and ridiculous.
Scott Levitt yea but at least they are doctors and insist on the same level of recognition as MD/DO
@@imCXS-zh2yt Their training is nothing like physicians. They dont deserve to be seen as MD/DOs
So true and spot-on man I can testify. Especially after the hour's doctors have spent gaining medical education. It's indicative of the corruption in the US health system.
You did not mention that very few medical students can even hold down a weekend job Due to the hours of classes and studying just to keep up. Converesly many nursing and NP students work part or even full time while attending NP school. Acceotance rate to medical school hovers around 5%. Some online NP schools have 100% acceotance rates.
Medical school is definitely VERY intensive and I don't know any other program who has to study as much as them!
US MD student here. I agree with you rcomment completely, except the statistic on medical school acceptance. Acceptance into a single medical school might be around 5%, but overall medical school acceptance is actually around 35-40% because most applicants apply to 15-40 schools. 👍
engineering math phycis
are also very intensive
You state that to be an independently practicing DNP you need 6 to 17+ years training (implying many NPs are more qualified than MDs/Dos because they are more likely to train longer) while to be an independently practicing physician attending, a MD/DO needs 11-12 years training. It takes a minimum of 11 years but the upper limit is certainly not 12. If you’re going to do a fair comparison put the upper limit at 16/17 as well (4 for undergrad, 2 for research/postbac since this is just as likely as the 5 years nurses spend before advancing, 4 for medical school, 3-4 for residency and 3 more for specialization/fellowship or add a few more on top of that if you want to be a specialized surgeon..) Also, correct me if I’m wrong, but are there not programs that allow you to get your nursing degree and doctorate nurse practitioner at the same time? And I thought the NP clinical hours were 500 and that can be volunteering and shadowing only? A 60 hour workweek as a resident is a light week. Thats not including studying, charting, research etc. Avg work is more like 100 hours a week.
Not to mention that the 17+ years he used was including the 5-15 years of RN work experience, which is not medical training. Ultimately, in terms of training hours, it only really takes
They say third time a charm, am officially an FNP🎉🎉for all my repeat test takers don't give up and don't be discouraged
You will pass everyone has their own season,just keep going pray and believe you will receive
I failed 3 time, I lost money to scams and reviews that never helped but the major thing is that I've not lost hope
I tried Fitzgerald, Barkley and Associates and I also did 3 nurse achieve exam and my result came back failed
I only studied a lot when I went for the first time last year but the second time was so easy, all thanks to my aunt who introduced me to Mrs Amilia am really grateful
I have sat for FPN exam for the 4th time now and still failed, I guess certificate isn't meant for people like me😭
we all are at risk of falling into the Dunning- Kruger effect ...anyway the board of Nursing should review licensed professionals who claim they can provide care out their scope of pratice ...I understand medical schools not for everyone but it is unthenical and illegal to pratice out your scope of practice or even to missform to patients or others professionals..even if your in your mind your are a MD ... NP are not MDs...
NPs are definitely not MDs - that is true, and I definitely do not think I am a physician. I know my shortcomings and am very thankful for my collaboration with my attending physicians. But don't be mistaken - assessing, diagnosing, and treating patient's and their medical conditions is the legal and ethical scope of practice of an NP
Will Kelly, NP a dermatologist has the license to perform neurosurgery... but they don’t because they don’t “hit the limit of their license”
NPs practice within the scope that is established by their certifying body. They don't practice out of scope.
Doctor Mike is a DO Doctor
JustTooLit that is true! The video itself is between doctors (both MDs and DOs) and NPs. I wanted to use a popular doctor here in the UA-cam world. However I can see how that thumbnail is a bit misleading and makes it seem as though Dr. Mike is an MD. Thank you for clarifying!
Will Kelly, NP I understand. Sounds good ! Just wanted to clear it up for anyone who was confused
@javiercarlos rodriguez Awwww, did you get rejected from a DO school and are taking out your frustration on the internet? I went to a DO school and am now a dermatology resident at a top 20 academic institution. Didn't get into an MD program despite having a 3.98 GPA bc my MCAT was below avg due to having to work full-time to support my family. Yes, I agree that OMM is generally a waste of time, and that the entire "holistic" approach to medicine that DO admissions committees tout is nonsense since all competent physicians should practice medicine with that mindset. As someone who hasn't used a minute of OMM since my last class as a second-year medical student, I'm a physician who matched into my first choice program and not a massage therapist while you're a dickhead with a grainy high school graduation profile photo being an asshole online to mask your own insecurities.
@javiercarlos rodriguez I'm a practicing dermatologist now, so that was a long time ago (6+ years) in the past. The MCAT is a 9-hour long entrance exam that is required for entry into a MD or DO program in the united states.
@javiercarlos rodriguez MD here.... DOs get nothing but respect from me. Their educatiom is more than suficient, and I would truat most DOs i know over most MDs i studied with.
Difference = 10,000 hrs of hands on training for doctors vs mostly online courses that are impossible (nearly) to fail for nurse practitioners. It's very easy to get accepted to nurse practitioner programs. It's difficult to get accepted to medical school. Make your own conclusion about which you want to care for you.
Adam Sorensen Doctors are there to keep the masses sick enough to keep them coming back. They’ve become modern day salesman for the pharmaceutical co. I’d take an NP with years as an RN with certificates in Nutrition.
@@urhyhnis, it's hard to really quantify how ignorant that statement is. The difference is clear. NPs are poorly qualified relative to physicians, your conspiracy theories notwithstanding.
GoldenState Lolita Darwinism at work
It’s actually very hard to get accepted into a bsn program when you don’t have experience because most schools are very small and limited with teachers
I mean ...if the MD are so fuckin perfect and they " know" everything , what in the heck they dont take care about patients? If they are so good then.. We should eliminate nursing and the MD should do all the job, even I propose to eliminate all the other health programs . Come on !
Regardless of what someone ends up choosing I feel like to be a nurse or a physician you have to want to work in the medical field because it's a lot of work, a lot of education, and a lot of training and I feel like it wouldn't be worth going through if you are becoming a doctor just because it's one of the most successful jobs.
You have to actually want to work in the medical field if you want to become a doctor/nurse or already a doctor/nurse because I feel like It will be hard to stick with it, if you don't even like your job
Doctors are trained for special procedures, thoracentesis, chest tube insertions and many more, and deals with more critical ill patients compared to NPs. So medical school provide a better training and shouldn’t be compared in terms
of the care provider by both. However, I love your comparison from the nursing aspect. Bedside nursing provides a good exposure to the clinical aspects of patient care. But NPs are not trained or granted license for special surgical procedures like the ones mentioned above and more. That is why we need doctors. We all work in collaboration to provide /promote the well being of patients.
You're not wrong - doctors for sure get training that cannot compare to NP education. But I disagree with your statement about NPs not being able to perform those procedures which you listed above. NPs can get trained to perform chest tube thoracotomies or needle thoracentesis among many other minor surgical procedures. These procedures are commonly taught in Acute Care NP programs (Chest tube more-so than thoracentesis).
I also agree with you that doctors are absolutely necessary and we definitely need them! We also must be willing to collaborate when indicated to provide great care to our patients! :) The purpose of this video wasn't to falsely elevate the NP profession over the physician's - it was to emphasize the importance of what NPs do, and the value of collaboration with our physician colleagues!
@@WillKellyNP any monkey can do procedures but can they be retained to think like a human?
NPs are mid-level providers. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's pretty obvious that you're trying to turn it into top-level providers. It's tough to compare something you know to something that you don't, so I can't knock you too hard, however, this is pretty over the top.
I wasn't trying to make NPs a "top-level provider", whatever that means. Just trying to objectively list the differences between the 2 routes. However, I did miss some important information and made some oversights, and plan on redoing the video soon
Lol I might be the only nursing student that doesn’t trust NPs. I’d rather my PCP be a MD/DO. I know a lot of my classmates are going through nursing school just to get their NP. They don’t actually want to work as RNs... it’s a easy route to take vs medical school. Not to mention a lot of the NP programs are basically degree mills that will let anyone in & pass as long as your willing to pay. In my opinion it shouldn’t be so easy to step into such a serious role of a provider. I also don’t think that NPs should be able to practice independently, instead they should function under the supervision of a MD/DO. Idk these are just my opinions, but I work at a training hospital where NP students come for clinical hours & they are scary!!!
You cannot legislate an education. If i have a choice to see a physician or NP and given the difference in education, training, and clinical hours, the choice is easy. I was misdiagnosed by an NP at urgent care. She didn’t agree with the hospital radiology department, so sent me home with pneumonia diagnosis. It was a pulmonary embolism which my physician quickly focused on. Both knew i had factor V Leiden and previous DVT.
Most biased video ever it’s laughable. Disclaimer I am neither a doctor or a NP. But it’s pretty obvious that most people agree when I say that you can’t seriously think that 5-15 years of NP experience equates to medical school that doctors go through. They have direct programs too now. Lmaoooo this is a joke
I definitely don’t think that and if you watched the video in its entirety, I’m not sure you would think I say that either
To think an Np is even close to a physician is ridiculous in terms of skill and experience. This biased information is dangerous to the public and further puts distrust into doctors
This video isn't to claim they are the same, but rather to point out their difference in education and training, as well as to help guide those who are between both careers
So am I paying physician money but seeing a nurse practitioner or is it cheaper to see a np instead of a pa
Bro can you please tell me np are doctor's in India
There is no regulation for the NP role in India right now that I can see
A question: you mention collaboration between NPs and MDs/DOs. What do you mean by "collaboration?"
Doctors usully give orders and nurses do the job.
@@SuperSimpleasthat :v u kidding me?
As an NP, collaboration mainly means consulting them if you have any questions regarding the management of a patient or their disease. This depends on the state, but also may involve cosignature of charts
@@SuperSimpleasthat the first that u shouldn't believe is that. That will lead u to the court, with a huge legal problems
The only negative point I have to make is that nursing degrees do tend to have a lot of ‘fluff’ classes. I’m a very academic and studious person. Received A’s mainly throughout school. & I did expect my nursing degree to be more intellectually stimulating. It is by no means easy, it’s hard work cause there’s a lot of things you need to do and get in order for placements but the actual content feels quite limited. I have topics like “Fundamental Communication Skills” and “Personal development” which so far hasn’t taught me anything I didn’t already know. They feel like filler classes to fill the year timetable. The only remotely stimulating class has been Anatomy & Physiology which I’ve found intense but really interesting and knowledgeable. I received almost full marks on my paper. Practice Skills has also been very useful, but again, actual knowledge feels very far and few (they move at a slow pace). I originally wanted to study medicine but thought I wouldn’t be able to handle it due to the monumental work load and study. But now I’m wishing I gave it more thought. & whilst I do love and enjoy my nursing degree, it doesn’t challenge me in the way I thought it would and I don’t feel like I’m actually learning enough 🤷♀️.
A lot of the learning comes on the job. If you’re not too deep into your nursing degree and are having these thoughts - maybe consider switching to premed?? The sooner the better if that’s what you truly want to do! Or finish your degree but make sure you take premed pre-reqs ASAP. Nurses bring a whole new set of skills when going back to get their medical degree. I absolutely agree with you, I wish there was less fluff classes in my undergrad and grad education. This is a major reason why I’m not running to get my DNP. Good luck to you!!
Leah McDermott I think you may have went to the wrong school. Until you can you mastered every diseases/ medicine and have perfect clinical skills then you have life long nursing journey.
Those classes may feel like "fluff" if you already have good people skills. But you'd be surprised at how many people lack basic social skills, and that has a huge impact on nursing where you are working with patients more directly and closely that providers and MDs do.
As a nurse I've seen some nurses who will just barge into patient's rooms and start pushing meds in their IVs or just rip off a dressing for a dressing change, without talking to the patient and letting them know what they're doing. There have been times when I've had to go into a belligerent patient's room and learned that the reason they were being difficult is because other staff members weren't listening to them, then they calm down and become pleasant just because I took a few minutes to listen to their concerns and address them.
Bedside manner is extremely important in bedside nursing, and it is a skill that a lot of people have to be taught, which is what all those "fluff" classes are for. They teach nurses how to deal with patients as people, rather than treating them like just a project or a list tasks that need to be done.
@@snugglebuns6193 But they clearly dont work lol. I completely agree with what you said though. But those nurses took those fluff classes too. I literally saw a nurse at my clinical try to insinuate to family that they should take the pt off full code status in a really loud, blunt and demeaning way. Thank God the family could barely speak English. I was so mortified.
@Leah McDermott I do agree with you about there being too much fluff classes. I also feel like the fluff classes also take away from be fully absorbing the really important stuff. I am kept busy that I dont even have time to practice things I really feel like I need to practice. Like head to toe assessments. You can still study medicine and when you do you will be ahead of everyone with your clinical experience. You may also have a different appreciation for nurses when you do become a doctor.
If you want to have superficial knowledge of medicine go become NP. PA have significantly lot more depth of knowledge over NP. PA are still not equivalent to MD. I was NP before going to med school. Now teach med PA and NP student . NP students lack basic science (part of MD PA dental school) therefore they are often unable to answer questions on WHY something is wrong or WHY it works that way.
Protector K9 I work at an Intensive Care Unit. My colleagues and I have taken responsibility in learning pathophysiology and treatment of the conditions we receive. This is to completely understand the underlying problem and to address it effectively. With only a BSN we have earned the MDs respect when it comes to management of critically ill patients. On the other hand, I have witnessed countless malpractices from part of certain MDs because they seem to have forgotten “basic science”. At the end of the day it all depends on the individual. Graduating from a degree does not mean you will no longer learn.
@@kennethlpadindiaz2637 I have been NP . Most of the new NP are online grads with very little floor experience. I was shocked once I attended medical school how much I didn't know. Medical school is not to teach you everything about medicine it is to make you realize how complex and in depth this field is. And my gripe with NP is that almost all are not aware of this. On the other hand PA have some understanding of the issue. Also learning and forgetting and not learning at all are two different things.
@@kennethlpadindiaz2637 They don't even take Organic Chem or a true grad level anatomy class. Without orgo IDK how anyone can claim they actually understand Pharm? I think NP's can be a valued resource for medical care, but only alongside a physician. Autonomy will absolutley kill people especially now that everything is going online.
@@joshb2686 :v I really dont know what is happening in ur country ( US?). I'm from LatAm but ...hell! Here in the masters program or doctoral programl is almoat mandatory that u get the knowledge in the basic science because here in the rural areas when is 0 physicians , we can replace them , for example we can attend alone a birth , we can administer medications etc , I mean I was thinking about going to U.S to do my master buttt... I don't know whats happening there. On the other hand, I have done few rotations with MD and they told me , you have to be really good because being a nurse or a general physician is almost the same u have to know, what I know.Then guys: I UNDERSTAND THAT NURSING IS ABOUT ALL THE STUFF CARE, buutttt wr have to be good in everything
to become an aesthetics nurse/pa/doctor and open her/his own medspa, would you recommend becoming a nurse or pa or doctor?
thank you
The difference is that there is a big difference.
There is a big difference for sure!
Will Kelly, NP not in the way you are portraying it lmao
I think you did pretty well at talking about this topic in comparison. Straying away from the topic of this video a bit, I think that the medical field definitely have this hierarchy in titles and roles. I dont think one should belittle the other or act or feel the need to prove oneself base on title (not saying that you did it, just notice a lot of people in healthcare do). A NP is a NP, a physician is a physician. The scope of practice may be similar, but there holds a big gap of difference too. The end goal is to provide quality care to patients. As a future ADNP I wouldn't dare introducing myself as Dr to any of my patients, bc it can be misleading or confusing to them. I am proud of myself for the hard work I put in, but I dont see a need to constantly flaunt it. I really enjoyed your video, it got me thinking a lot about the hierarchy that exist in the medical field. :)
This is quite misleading. Saying NPs have around 5-15 years experience as bedside nurses is FALSE - there are many NPs who literally have never spent a day as a bedside RN and have basically zero practical clinical experience. YOU yourself don't have 5 years of bedside nursing experience.
You say this video wasnt meant to elevate NPs or mislead people and yet you post outright lies. Shame on you.
He said average.......some people go back to school after 15-20 years and some goes straight. Some NP school require 1-2years of RN experience to get accepted.
@@HealthEri Within the wider context of a 30-35 year career, 5-15 isn't an "average"...one value is 3x as high as the other. Stats don't really work like that.
I’m a now senior in high school and am looking into some BSN programs to become an NP. I’m a bit curious about what the normal work day would be like in the different settings NPs work in! Thanks!
So I'm curious. This gentleman looks fairly young for an NP. After he got his BSN how long was he an RN? I have heard that 1-2 years of nursing experience is enough to go back for a master's. So do you need 5 years or more? If this gentleman had more than five years then congrats because he still looks very young.
You need 1-2 years of experience before you can apply for most programs
DinoSauros Rex I had 4 years of RN experience in the ED before transitioning into an NP - currently working again in the ED!
USA has very relaxed laws for NP. In other countries becoming NP is extremely difficult and require lot more oversight
I feel like it should be more rigorous. I don't appreciate that its mostly online either.
What are your thoughts on NP vs PA? Maybe a future video idea??
Madi Mcmillan I actually have a video coming out in 2-3 weeks on this! Overall - both are great options with similar job roles and compensation
Will Kelly, NP true but NP can practice independently in I believe 23 states. That is not the same for PA who must working under a MD. Also, compensation threshold I would argue is higher for a NP than a PA as an NP can go in to receive their DNP. I believe their is not doctorate level for a PA that is not the route of a MD
Death battle!
@@metorphoric They are not doctors! They should get back to doing what they are supposed to be doing - working on the wards and stop trying to play doctor!
Can you make a video about Direct entry masters for people with. Non nursing degrees
Where is the science in this curriculum? From what your saying, it seems like MD's have more science in their schooling than NP's.
Residency is 3-7 years. Not 3-4 +/- fellowships of 1-3 years
Nursing knowledge and work doesn't translate to the work done by physicians. As a physician, I get many calls from "experienced" nurses doing wrong things and other nurses ruining protocols and care because they don't know what they are doing and are scared of following orders correctly. Then the curriculum of NP is loaded with leadership, education, advocacy and other courses that have nothing to do with medicine. Finally, the care provided by NPs is inferior, and all these "studies" cited have been debunked time and time again. NPs simply don't have enough training or knowledge to do the job
I know it doesn't translate - as I clearly state in the video. Just that it helps nurses become familiarized with "how everything works", and become acquainted with diseases and medical treatments. I support NP education reform and agree that NP curriculum needs to cut out fluff and replace it with classes that supplement clincal knowledge and decision making. As far as your claim that NPs offer inferior care, are you able to provide any studies which support this?
@@WillKellyNP Yes, several studies. For example, let's start with PMID 15922696, PMID 22305625, PMID 32333312, PMID 29641238. I could continue, but that's a start. Also, if you believe outcomes are similar, why are you suggesting more education?
Hi! I was wondering if it was possible to go get om your doctorate right after you get a BSN with no nursing experience??
I advise against doing it. You should get some nursing experience first at least 1 to 2 yrs.
Some programs allow this. You will still need to take and pass the NCLEX-RN and maintain your RN licensure. Even most people who do this end. up working at least part-time. I would recommend getting at least 1-2 years of FT RN experience before starting NP school, and work throughout your program
*I appreciate the info!! My son has adhd therefore, he goes to a mental health facility. He seen a doctor and a counselor at the clinic for years, until the doctor had to leave due to having health issues (he was able to retire). Since then, for the past 3 years, my son has only seen NPs and no counselors. There's a big difference since the change though!! It's almost like they just want you in and out as fast as possible so they ask the same few questions then send his script! Now, I don't know exactly how educated the NPs are in mental health and I don't mean to be rude... I just don't know and when it comes to mental health disorders and controlled substances, it's serious! I don't think our health care system deals with mental health the way it should anyways, but it seems to be getting even worse!! With that said, I know that mental health has increased tremendously through the years as well so, I'm sure it's even harder for doctors to keep up with the amount of traffic!! And I'm sure that's the exact reason they have so many NPs in place of doctors!! .... I'm also kinda curious how that goes with pay rates bc if your doing the job a doctor should, you should get paid the same amount!! I just wish our health care system would do better with mental health!!*
People has different experience depending on the individual professional (not based on license). I hear a lot of people get a better care with NPs than a doctor.
@@HealthEri the data suggests otherwise
I Do bellieve the MD can spécialise can the np?
Yes. NPs specialiaze and take boards specific to their specialty of choice.
How much experience as a RN did you have before master's NP?
Most require 6-12 months
The more the better usually. More time to cement core nursing skills and knowledge and more experience dealing with medicine in general
It's like saying "I worked 5-15 years as a waiter in a top restaurant so that automatically qualifies me for top chef"
Noctors are overdoing it. You aren't trained for independent practice, so cut it out. If you wanted that you should've gone to med school 🤷♀️
This is so crazy biased. You also forgot to mention the caliber of students that get into med school. The average GPA to have a chance to get into med school is above 3.7 and a high score on the MCAT. Out of that small pool of people, maybe 1-2% get in. Have you heard of anyone not getting into nursing school? Residency is at least 80 hours per week, not including call at home
By caliber you mean the net worth of you mom and dad? STFU
NP vs MD | What's the difference? MD = Medical doctor | NP = nurse. Simple like that.
Mistake #1 (in the first 30 seconds in the video): Don’t shock asystole!!
I’ve worked with great NPs and great physicians. Nurses practice nursing. Physicians practice medicine. That’s the big difference.
If you look at my early videos you can see it shocks vfib. Perhaps the flatline sound effect wasn't the "best" choice, but it gets the point across. Also - it's a quick little intro animation, but go off.
I am considering going down the nursing pathways, but I don’t know if I see myself cleaning up after another person’s feces, vomit, or blood.
that is a great consideration. Nursing requires quite a bit of patience and compassion. Sometimes helping clean up someone is part of the job. Honestly you just grow to not think much of it. However, there is SO MUCH more to a nurse's job than just cleaning up excrement. Depending on your setting, you may not even have to do it at all. As an NP, you will not be required to do any personal care in most settings.
lol well youll get over that quickly if youre serious about becoming an RN etc.
Is that possible to apply MSN or NP with another 4 year degree beside BSN??
No - a BSN must first be obtained before an MSN can be. There are some direct-entry programs for non-nurses but essentially these programs will first take you through your BSN, you must pass the NCLEX-RN, and then take you through your MSN.
@@WillKellyNP how long do you think it take to get bsn if I already have another 4 year degree, and I took all science classes?
@@jacksr8218 You can go through an accelerated postbacc BSN program. If you already have your sciences I'd expect 15-18 months
Yes you can do a direct entry program for your MSN then work a year and apply for a NP certification. Just google it because ppl will say you can’t but you can.
@@prettypri2949 While this is true, the direct-entry programs still take you through the BSN portion of the education, you then have to take and pass the NCLEX-RN, and then move onto your MSN studies. By the end of it, you will have both a BSN and an MSN.
Im a assistent nurse soon to be a nurse and move to USA from Sweden to work on ER
Ok lets not sugar coat it. as a 3rd year medical student I had more clinical hours than a graduating NP. A brand (yesterday 4th year med student, today's brand new doc) new intern has a much wider differential for any CC than an NP with several years of experience. NP's can't even pass USMLE board exams ( ~95% pass rate among MD/DO) even after they made a dumb dow version of the test, Columbia NP school, less than 40% passed. Lets not forget that there are a shit ton of online school aka money mills where NP's take most of their "sciences" . NP's follow nursing, not medical model. Belive it or not a deep knowledge of physiology and pathology is super important in having a broad differential diagnoses, evaluating DD interactions based on our training in biochemistry, cell bio ect... NP's do not cover many of these subjects and those that they do is surface level detail that helps them follow simple algorithms. Not to mention that those 15 THOUSAND hours of residency involves grueling work demands , yet residents are strictly asses by multiple level examinations thuse they have to keep up with in-depth studying daily . Now i have to give credit where its due the AANP is a great lobbying group that knows how to push their agenda. First it was supervising physician, now its "collaborating" and now we see where it all is going, corporations are saving money while patients get substandard care from "Independent NPs"
I like NP better because less student loans, less time out of your life, more holistic careand you can take the money and invest it!
you'll make way more as a doctor
@@aahsimovieprojects hmmm true but i am already a nurse
@@KimmyDTV plus one of my family members is a doctor he paid his loan in 2 years because how much he is making he is loving it.
@@nickmartinez6074 thats great! My cousin is studying to become a doctor she is in her residency now and i saw everything she had to sacrifice, I just dont want to sacrifice that much time out of my life i want to enjoy my youth
@@aahsimovieprojects you make more money yes but most of it goes to taxes and you work wayyy more not worth it imo
Depends what you want for your life. Do you want to be the surgeon making the major decisions and leading the ship, but which also entails being the person called through all hours of the night with all the responsibility. Or do you want to be a PA or NP working with the surgeon as an aid with good pay, hours, and less responsibility
Daniel exactly - it’s a trade off
NP is how the corporate owners of our health care system will make money by providing cheap, unqualified,and dangerous practitioners. Online degrees?
just make NPs to take step1/2/3
I personally think NPs are not bad. But, schools should not offer doctorate degree for nurses, pts, and pharmacists to distinguish them from medical doctor. That would eliminate unnecessary conflict and confusion. I know many NPs act alike or wanting to play doctor’s role on clinical setting simply for they earned DNP. Also, all NP’s program should require at least 3~5 years of experience as a RN before they pursue higher degree. There are too many incompetent NPs straight out of college with no or very little experience who think they are too smart. Nurses should be proud of being a a nurse and not mimic other role.
The fact of the matter is that you cannot compare physicians to NPs or physicians to PAs or NPs to PAs. Physicians such as Internal Medicine, Family medicine or general medicine physicians essentially practice doing the same thing that NPs and PAs do. The way that they are educated is different. NPs were initially trained as nurses, therefore they were taught to treat the whole patient. PAs are taught to treat the problem that the patient presents with just like physicians. It's just like you cannot compare an Internal Medicine physician to an Infectious disease physician. However, I think that it is unnecessary to compare one specialty to another specialty.
Just a heads up, physicians are 100% trained to train the patient as a whole,. There is a biopscyhosocial model in place within the training. You would not know this if you did not go to medical school though.
If anything midlevels, like nurse practioenrs are opioid pushers and just want to make money from that.
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32333312/
Another study showing they overprescribe antibiotics.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15922696
Truth is midlevels are more likely to prescribe and less likely to think about treating the patient holistically.
@@udm787 Yes, physicians are taught on a medical model and nurses, NP's are taught on a nursing model. However, when physicians see patients in an outpatient setting they are 'problem focused'. The two roles still cannot be compared.
@@cinnamon3220 I agree. A comparison between nurses and physicians is ridiculous. They play two completely separate roles. One assists, the other leads. It could not be more clear who a society should want leading healthcare other than now, during this pandemic.
About work experience: depends on the NP field you want to go into. In my current preceptorship as a nursing student, most of the nurses were in (Labor and delivery) NP programs with only 2 years of experience (PCU floor). They mentioned most programs don't need experience in a particular field, just good references, and a good GPA (3.3-3.5).
Thanks a lot for telling the GPA exactly what I needed to know
I'm in high school and would like to be an NP. I was wondering how long did you wait to go to an NP program?
Kiara Terre' that’s a great goal! After I graduated HS I immediately attended a 4-year BSN program. I then worked for a year as an RN before starting a part-time NP program. I worked Full-time throughout most of my program (2.5 years), did some travel nursing, and then began working as an NP!
Dra O Reply;
Thanks for responding! On my channel, I encourage comments of all different opinions. However, I do want to also encourage the use of factual information. It is so important for nurses and nurse practitioners to provide evidence-based recommendations to our patients and colleagues.
This whole debate over RN experience has always been something I’m passionate about - perhaps because I only waited 1 year before starting NP school and always feel the need to defend myself and my abilities as an NP. Despite my ~4 years of nursing experience, I still was able to maintain exceptional performance in a difficult program, excellent clinical preceptor reviews, a 3.9 GPA, and competency in my current role as an NP.
To reinforce my point, I have done a little research.
First, you mentioned that reputable NP programs require you to have 5 years of RN experience before even applying to NP programs. This is not factual.
Looking at the top 3 NP programs according to The US News and World Report Rankings, Duke, Vanderbilt, and UPenn have no mention on their admissions pages of required RN experience. Except UPenn does mention that for their ACNP program they require at least 1 year in acute care - and this just makes sense. I think you would agree that these schools and NP programs are reputable. Honestly requiring any experience for an FNP program is not the norm.
Second, I did a little mini-lit review looking for RN experience and it’s impact on NP competency.
www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1555415514007983
This study showed that RN experience played no role in NP transition, whereas formal orientation did
journals.lww.com/tnpj/Fulltext/2005/12000/Does_RN_Experience_Relate_to_NP_Clinical_Skills_.9.aspx
This study overviews the data comparing little to no RN experience NPs with many-years RN experienced NPs. In it’s lit review, it overviews the few studies out there on the topic, and every one so far indicates no difference in NP GPA or performance.
The authors then conduct a quantitative research study which aims to decipher the correlation between RN experience and NP clinical competency. There was no significant difference between the groups self-reporting level of competency, and their collaborating physicians actually ranked the less-experienced RN NPs as MORE COMPETENT than THE experienced RN NPs. Very interesting!
Overall there isn’t a ton of research out there on the topic, but everything we have doesn’t indicate that RN experience is better, especially the arbitrary 5 years that you have mentioned.
I’m not saying that RN experience is pointless. I find it very useful. I just consider the amount of years required to be very subjective and based on the person. RN experience acclimates you to the healthcare industry, exposes you to diseases and treatments, and increases or competence communicating the physicians, patients, and families. However, the RN role is VERY different from the NP role - and no amount of RN experience will help you think like a provider - that’s what our advanced education, training, and PROVIDER experience is for.
The studied you cited importantly compare nurses in environments where they are able to collaborate with physicians. It has been proven that completely independent nurses have worse health outcomes for patients.
Where I live you pay to see specialist doctors but what you really get is NPs. They are taking over and one doctor has multiple working for him so it’s definitely just a way to increase the amount of money their practice is getting. I’m paying full price for off brand product.
Medical information for a BSN =/= medical info learned in medical school. It's not even close.
I never implied that, and multiple times throughout the video I explained that it is not equal
As a NP you shouldnt be able to administer cleareance of work physicals unless you have experience in the field that you are performing the work physical for. I was denied even recently not denied but put on so many prescriptions because of a medicine i was legally prescribed to since i was in my early 20's i will lose this job even though its my career & have 28 years of professional experience doing it & have NEVER had a accident. My primary physician not only called her up but told her he had me on this Medicaine as a safety issue to control my anxiety. She blew him off stating that "she didnt care & that she thought it was to dangerous for me to be working on". He typed & faxed her a formal letter which I will be bringing to a "work place lawyer" tommorow to try to help end all of this foolishness by unproperly trained doctors with no experince in
Wow, such a biased video.
most universities require 1-2 years of experience in an area relevant to your specialty of practice for the NP program you are going into. Very few do not require RN experience.
Most FNP programs I’ve seen don’t require RN experience although may help your admissions profile. For ACNP, ENP, PNP, etc you usually do need a good 1-2 years before applying
I was recently accepted to medical school and Ill be starting in July. Ive been considering giving it up and pursuing NP. Reality is starting to hit me about medical school that Ill have zero life for the next 8 years as well as massive debt, not to mention Im getting old (career change from being a paramedic for 8 years). I keep flip flopping on DO vs NP. Part of me says suck it up and be a doctor and the other part says enjoy your life and be an NP.
There isn't an easy answer for this one. There are definite pros and cons of each path. I don't know your specific situation, but if practicing medicine to it's full extent is your goal then I would suggest sticking with Med School. Understand that your life won't be put on hold, life will move on and you will experience more than just school (although learning medicine will be the most time consuming i'm sure).
The debt is for sure a factor as well, but depending on which specialty - you can pay this off pretty quickly. NP school isn't the cheapest either, and our salaries are often 1/3 that of a physician. However, being an NP truly does offer flexibility, balance, and not as much of an investment (time or money).
Would you be okay with not knowing almost everything (but instead knowing who to refer to or which resources to use to find the information)? Both are very rewarding, but you've already made it so far on the path to med school. You've been accepted! Really consider everything you'd be giving up by switching to nursing. To become an NP you'd first have to become an RN with BSN, then MSN. This would take 4-6 years alone.
Honestly, If it were me in your shoes - I would pick Med school.
It is okay to work being a doctor. Though I am a FNP I cannot compare my title to a MD they have more hours and indept knowledge in what they do. It is a choice what one wants to do. Either way it is a good move!!!
Then you will NEVER be looked at as a doctor nor should you be because your not nor will you ever be. NP my ass..you should never be allowed to do the things a Shitty DOCTOR allows you to do. Perhaps you'll truly harm someone or worse with your lack of true medical knowledge and they will make an example out of you and put a stop to this awful world of complete horse shit that all of you NP's and PA's live in. It's a disgrace and completely disrespectful to REAL DOCTORS. They spent many,many years to hold the title of Doctor,Physician. And then have some clown like a nurse playing doctor take away or tarnish what they worked so long and hard for. It should be outlawed and handled with severe consequences and hopefully when it's discovered how many people you've harmed or worse it will be. Have a great day NURSE!
@@sandyshores8817 you need to calm down.ok. Nurse Practitioners are well trained and equiped to handle their duties as a doctor. The only difference is the years in training. Nurses have more medical experiences while doctors have more medical knowledge. They both need each other. So stop being irrational about your thoughts towards Nurses especially Nurse Practitioners plus NP can learn the extent of medical knowledge that a doctor has. No one is better than no one. Have a nice day
@@sandyshores8817 I feel the same way. I have just been accepted into med school and all the people around me who are NPs keeps laughing at me. They tell me how after all these struggle, we will be the same. It's sad to me.
Was a thesis required at the end of your NP program? I want to be a nurse practitioner but I'm most worried about having to do and complete a thesis at the end of my MSN program. I've seen some say that it isn't required but others that say it is.
MerpTheNarwhal it depends on the program. As far as I know a thesis isn’t required. However my program has an extended literature review that we had to complete - but we basically worked on it for 2 semesters. Otherwise, thesis’s are more common in doctorate work
@@WillKellyNP Some universities I am considering offer a Bachelor's in Nursing Sciene rather than Bachelor's of Science in Nursing. Is there a significant difference that you know of and would this affect my eligibility to get into a MSN program or a job as an NP?
@@merpthenarwhal9759 I really have never heard of a Bachelor's of nursing science? Google isn't showing me much either. All I know is that BSN is the standard and most graduate programs require a BSN from what I have seen
@@WillKellyNP I know UC Irvine has one but they're the only ones that I've seen that offer it
The Bachelor of Science in Medicine Major in Nursing (BSN, BScN) also known in some countries as a Bachelor of Nursing (BN) or Bachelor of Science(BS) with a Major in Nursing is an academic degreein the science and principles of nursing, granted by an accredited tertiary education provider. The course of study is typically three or four years. The difference in degree designation may relate to the amount of basic science courses required as part of the degree, with BScN and BSN degree curriculums requiring completion of more courses on math and natural sciences that are more typical of BSc degrees (e.g. calculus, physics, chemistry, biology) and BN curriculums more focused on nursing theory, nursing process, and teaching versions of general science topics that are adapted to be more specific and relevant to nursing practice.
Been working as a nurse for almost 8 years as a trauma nurse and have only seen 1 nurse with RN, BscN, instead of RN,BSN looks very odd
What is a fellowship?
Juliana Cheriza a fellowship is an additional year of training that a physician can choose to do in a specialty at the end of their residency!
A fellowship is additional training for MDs or DOs (physicians). It can last anywhere for 1-3 years. This is done after the MD/DO has already completed their 3-7 year residency after graduating medical school. For doctors to specialize in something rheumatology, we have to do YEARS of training in order to specialize. For NPs to specialize, they can take 2-3 online day courses. Consider then when you see a "specialist." Personally, I would rather have someone with years of experience, than someone who got an online certification in a matter of days.
The difference is about 10 years of training.
Not just years, but also scope of training and the depth of medical knowledge learned over those years. Even a medical student finishing their 1st year has already surpassed the NP with years of experience, because nursing experience doesn't mean anything. The problem with the fool who made this video is that he thinks a flight attendant will be able to do a pilot's job by walking around the plane for a bunch of years.
I still dont get it. Just give the short answer.
If this video is too long or too complicated for you, neither are viable options for your future.
@@tjlpurdy Your future aint much to be butthurt at my comment! The video IS too long!
@@MissTia777 If seven minutes is too long to learn about your career, just quit.
@@tjlpurdy If you are that much of a loser to be butt hurt over my comment, that proves how pathetic you are! It IS too long!
@@MissTia777 k
This is informative. And I thank you for your research in clarifying this for the public. I think however you ignored the MCAT, the three boards to pass medical school and then the boards to become a doctor-- which you did note for nursing.
I would heavily argue that the nurses aren't getting 5-15 years experience prior to np school most that I have seen are 1 or less.
While you also failed to mention the previous expertise hours to applying to medical school and the clinical.
Would you share your opinion on the changes to oversight?
Sara, I really appreciate your well-thought-out response. You're right - I definitely should have mentioned the shadowing experience than many med schools prefer their candidates to have (as many have pointed out to me in the comments). As for the MCAT as well as the multiple board exams that physicians must take - that was an actual oversight. I did not include everything for time, but if I mentioned the board certifications briefly for nursing I should have also mentioned them for med school/residents. I will post a comment to the top outlining these oversights.
As far as the 5-15 years of experience, there was no specific data I could find regarding the average age of nurses when the matriculate into NP school. It was more of a gestalt average. However, I have first-hand experience with my NP colleagues and within my NP program. I myself only had 1 year of FT RN experience before starting NP school - I do not hide this. I worked FT throughout my program so that I had almost 4 years by the time I started my NP job. However, my colleagues in NP school as well as my colleagues in real life have been considerably older than me and had considerably more experience as bedside RNs prior to attending NP school, consistent with my rough estimate. I realize this is purely anecdotal - I just gave a very vague range and was sure to say that there is no minimum requirement.
Thank you again for your polite response. I in no way meant to diminish the physician path or insult med students and the physician community as I have a massive amount of respect for them and the very difficult path of becoming a physician.
Lots of comments posts here and everyone's looking to distinguish themselves for merits achieved. The common narrative Im seeing is that time, in hours, equates to being a better provider/patient outcomes. This just isnt the case. NPs are taught to hone in on one aspect of medicine, and thats why the pathway takes less time than that of doctors (though not by much). Furthermore, the reality of learning as a student differs from practice as you forfeit most of what you've learned once you enter the workforce in exchange for memorizing hospital/clinic protocols. A newly minted practitioner will especially tell you that. I've met shitty doctors and shitty NPs. In the end its not a measure of how long one's head has been in a book long enough to regurgitate information on an exam, but how passionate they are in what they do.
Ok you can find a passionate NP to give you the wrong diagnosis. While I opt for the doctor with knowledge lol😂
@@GrandAutoTours your doctor with knowledge likely hired the NP 😎
NPs have less knowledge and skills compared to physicians due to their lack of extensive training. It is simple as that. In addition, there are only videos of NPs comparing NPs and Physicians and "what the better route is". This is some attempt to equalize them. However, you will never see a video from an MD on that matter because they know they are superior. Not different, superior. Sometimes the truth hurts but thats the truth. If you want more knowledge, better cognitive training on systematic way of thinking and more skill then become and MD. Society rewards experties not mediocracy that the NPs bring
Can you go straight into a NP program after your bachelors?
I don't think so... You need to first go into nursing
Some programs will let you, but it’s highly encouraged to gain some experience before. People who go straight into NP school after BSN are often frowned upon
Awko Turtle yeah I’ve heard of that. How much experience is needed before going into the NP program?
Stephanie Taylor it really depends on what you want and what the program you applied to wants. Some you can get in right after with no experience. A lot of them require 1-2 years of experience. Many of the people I know went after 2-5 years of experience
do u have to work as an rn before going to get ur dnp or np
could I be a nurse practitioner with a public health major with a focus on nursing?
You would need your RN certification, most likely your BSN, then apply to NP programs. You can see more info here ua-cam.com/video/3RyalfewLR0/v-deo.html
Hey Will, can you talk about the job saturation within the NP world. I want to get into the profession but am worrying about paying for school and not getting the financial return if hospitals are not hiring.
Yes I went to 12 years of training for bragging rights
Lol
How's your pay?
and to actually know more... DO/MD is not an equivalent level of training. Patient care will go down as the current online accelerated model of DNP becomes mainstream. Patients will die due to the AANP.
This was my "wtf" moment when watching his video. "You'll get bragging rights with a MD but remember you wont get paid well until after residency." It's so incredibly cringey listening to someone who hasn't experienced a med school education talk about what we want and why we're doing it.
I am a medical student. Along the way, some premeds that I studied with ended up choosing other careers, including nurse practitioner. As such, there is a sense among the community of viewing NP as a backup option. That being said, I think they will help bridge the gap in primary health care needs.
PA would be a better backup after doing a premed track. The NP route would take way longer
Perfect job. Love this, as a BSN,RN who will be going for my NP. Love the edits, description and facts. It’s very important for people to not be dismissive of NPs but also aware that MDs clinical hours and studies are vigorous, yet well deserved. All parties are important to healthcare, it just depends on the preference of the person. 💛
They should always be dismissive as they should. Why? BECAUSE YOUR NOT A DOCTOR. Your some clown playing doctor and should be unemployed for doing so right along side the pathetic so called DOCTOR that allowed you to play make believe. Your dangerous and people's lives are put at risk because of people like yourself. Somebody do the research and lets see how many patients have been harmed or killed because of people like you. I bet it's a staggering number.
@@sandyshores8817 lmfao you're delusional aren't you? Have you ever worked in healthcare?
Can a Nursing practitioner become a doctor ?
LEO they’d have to make sure they took all the pre-med classes, take the MCAT, then go to medical school.
@@Nicole3900 thanks a lot for the reply.Do they provide any lateral entry to medicine for nurses /nursing practitioners?
@@LEO-hx7fl No
Yes. A NP can go on to obtain their DNP (doctorate Nurse Practitioner). DNP and MD are very different programs. NP does not require med school and I would argue is a different practice of medicine.
I believe by 2025, if one wants to become a nurse anesthesiologists which is currently a graduate program, you must obtain your DNP-CNA (doctorate certified nurse anesthetist) which is the highest nursing degree and paying very, very well.
I absolutely agree, thanks for providing such insightful feedback. Time to get back to my USMLE 5.
Md is better but np is a good career
I think this video has a lot of good basic information, some of the later information questionable--for instance equating bedside nursing as logged clinical education time or the equivalent of residency training hours. A residency is more rigorous than OTJ training, and is much more than a 9-5 job; it is more about living and breathing one's specialty for years to become closely acquainted with how physicians make decisions, and it is this level of training that med students, residents, and attendings all strive for agree is necessary.
As a resident going through the process of becoming an attending physician I can tell you that what I'm seeing is significant resentment and backlash toward midlevels--NP and PA--by medical students, residents, and attending physicians for what is seen as shortcutting to a higher salary in healthcare without having achieving the necessary training. What this equates to is a significant loss of respect of the traditional medical education training paradigm for personal gain, not for the well-being of patients.
The perception among my resident colleagues is that midlevels will inevitably obtain their own independent licensure in all 50 states due to continued lobbying pressure to go in this direction. The AANP bypassed the AMA and simply went straight to state legislatures and begged for their "rights" under the guise that the nursing board is sufficient to guide medical practice as a parallel entity and that patients will benefit somehow either in the form of equivalent outcomes (questionable) and lead to less medical expenditure overall (incorrect). The legislative process is worsening this problem by enabling patients to make their own decisions -- this is wrong and the nursing board knows it: patients are not equipped to make good healthcare decisions and it is normally the role of physicians to help them make those decisions or at least present them with the correct information.
What I would tell a trainee becoming a NP/PA now -- don't expect to be respected by physicians as experts. If you make your career decision absolutely knowing you were not going to get the best training, don't expect to be called an expert, and don't expect to be seen as an equal member of the "team". The next generation of physicians over this decade will likely see fewer physicians wanting to work with midlevels as both "collaborators" and consultants because of how their lobbying boards have soured our relationship. Be prepared for backlash.
Haha, so scared of your backlash. Dude, are you serious. Your rich parents bought your degrees. You didn’t really earn it, well you were forced to study like a squirrel day and night. don’t be mad at us, for being wiser. Yet, here we are at the same work space, seeing patients. You can stay mad, and do no threat nobody. Clown.
can you do about cnra's
Great video idea - I will add it to the list!
Can nps work in the er
10#15 yes absolutely - that’s where I work currently