Great job teaching. I have said for many years, "I'm just smart enough to know I'm not very smart" .You made it very clear how to check for squareness, even I could follow LOL! Thhanks
Hi Jon. Great tutorial we all need to check our equipment to ensure we have the best standard of perpendicularity references we can, to produce good quality parts and tools etc. For the home shop cost is the killer but as you have shown little money need be spent. Great advise
The most intricate guy I know on UA-cam. well explained. I was a maintenance fitter turner in the U.K but we only made spare parts that were obsolete but we never had to check things for squareness to that degree.
@Jon's Workshop Thank you very much for taking time to show how to self-prove perpendicularity from very little. Your explanations are concise and still verbose enough to convey the important details - a rare skill in itself. Thanks for sharing.
Great video, Jon. One of the best perpendicularity references available for a machinist "on the cheap" is making a cylindrical square from a length of ground bar. Chuck it up in the lathe, face off one end and hollow out the centre slightly so that, when place on that end, it's only resting on the rim.
Hi Wibbly wobbly, thanks for the comment and feedback. Cylinder squares are excellent, turned on a lathe works as long as the diameter is parallel along it's length which I am sure you already know 😉. Cheers, Jon
Thanks for the very well explained lesson. I was struggling with this exact problem on some parts I was making. Now I know. Boy granite squares and cylinder squares are expensive!
Hi Mick, thanks for the comment and feedback. Yep, you can spend a fortune on this stuff but it's not necessary with a bit of jiggery pokery. Cheers, Jon
Very informative video Jon. I have a surface plate now and already had an old Moore and Wright scribing block with the V cutout. I'm going to source a large ball and carry out these tests. Thanks for sharing your knowledge Jon. Cheers Nobby
Always a treat when another creator explains and demonstrates things that help others. Speaking of square, my 73 year old home was built so far out of Squareness that installing the new metal roof gave us night mares (@@)! Thx for sharing Jon, have a super wk end, PS - I mailed you a couple of stickers last November, did they show up? Let me know and will resend,
What ho Grasshopper, Another good lesson for your viewers I might take issue with you on the "cosine error" issue, If I were to be pedantic, who me?, as your aim is to reach the same reading on the dti dial there is no cosine error as you are not taking a measurement but using a reference point. See the point?😉 Back when I was setting up my home shop i used to visit a pre owned tool shop run by a lovely old chap who ran it as a retirement hobby. I got some real bargains, as did all his customers, and I know regret not buying one of his many cylinder squares. One of the things I bought from him was a Myford super 7 on a Myford industrial stand together with a brand new 3 phase converter, I wanted an imperial lathe as my Colchester is metric, he must have really hated me as I had to pay 300 quid for the lot.😊 I know how to make people jealous, amongst my other talents!😂😂 ATB C PS, if you like cheap, I'm told gudgeon pins from big diesel engines make a good starting point to make a cylinder square if you can lay your hands on a new or unworn one. They have a lovely lapped finish and can be quite large enough for home shop use. PPS, you never stop me quoting "flat, square and parallel" none of this perpendicular nonsense.
Hi Chris, thanks for the comment. You are quite right on the cosine error! Slip of the mind and tongue lol. Buggers up my OCD though to see any DTI not attacking the workpiece square on! Wow, you got a bargain there. Cheers, Jon
@@jonsworkshop yup don't we all have ocd, although people do get obsessed with cosine errors when you only need to see a lack of movement rather than an actual or a quantifiable amount. Even better bargain as it is the Super 7B with screw cutting gearbox, just think how much cheaper it would have been if he liked me.😉 His was a shop that all the local machinists flocked to, and in my case a forty Mile round trip, and is sadly missed.
Brilliant stuff Jon. It is funny, I just bought a surface gauge that has the ball end on the post for just this reason. It is an ex MOD one from the 1950s still in its wax coating! I got it as I am trying to get the bits together to have a try at scraping. thought your video was excellent. You have a talent for making any concept understandable.
Hi Jon, thanks for the very interesting video. I didn’t know about the ball as a bumper. Thanks for that. Do you remember where you bought the shown 1-2-3 block. I hope you can help me with a link to the vendor. Thanks! Eric
Hi Eric, thanks for the comment and feedback. Unfortunately I can't remember, they were Chinese, I thought Ebay but can't find anything in my purchase history. All Chinese stuff is much the same I think so it's worth a gamble based on the price. Cheers, Jon
Question for you Jon. Stefan Gotteswinter did a video where he made a Squareness Comparator with a semicircular bumper at the front. Made me wonder could you use a bearing instead of the ball? Cheers Nobby
Hi Nobby, thanks for the comment and question. In short, yes. What I showed was the poor man's version of what Stefan did, and achieves similar accuracy. Any ground regular surface would work (including a bearing shell). Cheers, Jon
@@jonsworkshop Thanks for that Jon. I think I can get my hands on a bearing easier that a ball, and at least it won't roll off the bench never to be seen again Cheers Nobby
Having recently been given a beautiful little surface gauge in exchange for some machining I was baffled by the vee shape in the front of the base, what could it be for? Now I know! Very helpful video. Cheers.
Hi Nigel, thanks for the comment. I think the V is just for clearance for the upright (might be wrong). But it's very handy for this check😊. Cheers, Jon
@@jonsworkshop it is clearance, plus it allows the upright to pass through and measure below the guage, using or not using the pins at the rear, as as I understand.
Be careful when using with a ball, unless the vee is machined and perpendicular to the base the ball can ride up off the table. Some are just cast in, or painted.
Morning Jon, this topi is very interesting, not sure that this level of accuracy would be something I need to aspire to, a reasonable quality machinist square is sufficient for me, good to know though 👴🏻👍
when you measured the parallelism on the 123 block would you not sweep both sides? reason I ask is if you sweep only one side like you did, and it was ok, there could still be a possibility (highly unlikely) of a dip in the middle of the other side ? Great video, would like more like this if possible.
Hi Paul, thanks for the comment. Yes, definitely a possibility of a dip, and the method you suggest is correct. I did the "Making assumptions" thing lol
1) rub your surface plate with your hand and it is immediately not clean. 2) If you have three 'square' items, and they all match up against each other in all three combinations, then they are all square. Nothing else required (other than the surface plate). 3) Your 'checked' 1-2-3 block is not a reference, it is a sub-reference. This is an important distinction in quality control..
If I were to take issue with your comment I might say that as the aim is to make sure the surface plate is dust free when you mean "clean" the possibility of leaving an even layer of hand oil is irrelevant for intended purpose. Regarding the 123 block, for the shown purpose once checked for precision it does indeed become a reference. It was checked for precision in its own right not referenced from another, therefore it is by definition not a sub anything. Just saying.
@@chrisstephens6673 Check how standards work. There is a reference standard, which is used to calibrate others- which are traceable back to the reference standard. These are sub-references, named to avoid confusion with the actual standard. Why? Because each calibration process introduces errors, which accumulate. Using commercial dial gauges, especially in a workshop environment, will certainly do so. That is why things like slip gauges come in laboratory : toolroom : shop floor varieties. Accuracy costs. The block in question is a sub reference, because it is a sub-standard. Not a pejorative label, it just places it in the accuracy hierarchy. Perfectly fit for workshop use, but NOT a reference item.
@@Tensquaremetreworkshop oh dear, someone more pedantic than me. We are talking workshop reference not NPL standards. I hope you don't ever use a vernier caliper, their inherent inaccuracy due to the measuring points being out of plane with the scale must be a real pain for you. I don't mean to be snippy but get real,
@@chrisstephens6673 Thank you! Pedantic means accurate … I use measuring equipment commensurate with the accuracy required. Knowing the limitations of what you are using is key. Also, ‘Reference' is not an object- it is shorthand for ‘reference standard'.
@@Tensquaremetreworkshop reference, the use of a source of Information in order to ascertain something. Standard, something used as a measure, norm, or model in comparative evaluations. Strictly speaking a square can never be a standard in international standrd terms, like a kilogram or some other physical property, but only a reference. A square only defines a quarter of a circle, not a length or mass, which can be defined. The subject then changes to calibration but that could just prolong the debate because all calibration is referenced to a standard, and round and round it goes.🤣 Again don't think I'm being awkward but I like intellectual arguments, or is that debates.😉
Sorry Jon, What was that Perpendicular what arity!!! Nother good'n Dude, need to get a laptop so I can watch these in the shop where all me stuff is instead of the backroom😂Stay safe n well Dude. TFS, GB :)
Hi David, correct, I didn't mention that, but most granite surface tables come with an inspection report as did mine, so I knew what I was working with. Also, I did point out quite a few times that this was about the method for a home shop, none of which will be working to Aerospace tolerances so any out of flatness of a surface plate or table will not really be detrimental to a home hobbyist.
Great job teaching. I have said for many years, "I'm just smart enough to know I'm not very smart" .You made it very clear how to check for squareness, even I could follow LOL! Thhanks
Hi Jerry, thanks for the comment and feedback, glad you followed along and found it useful. Cheers, Jon
Fred in the shed 😂good video Jon 👍👍👍
It's a surface gauge. A height gauge is graduated for direct measurement. At least that's how I learned it! You've covered this subject quite well.
Hi DPeter, thanks for the comment and feedback, much appreciated. Cheers, Jon
lol. Only used one tool & got the name wrong throughout the video. The dti shows double the error which is worth pointing out.
Hi Jon. Great tutorial we all need to check our equipment to ensure we have the best standard of perpendicularity references we can, to produce good quality parts and tools etc. For the home shop cost is the killer but as you have shown little money need be spent. Great advise
Hi RB, thanks for the comment and feedback. Yep, you don't need to spend a fortune. Cheers, Jon
My surface height gauge arrived today off ebay for £2 plus £4.20 delivery. Awesome tip and I know how to use it too now. TY.
eyup Jon
Nice theory lesson, i like cheap!!!!, also i have a engineers square just like your dad's with the angle finder on the other end!!
atb👍👍
Kev
Hi Kev, thanks for the comment and feedback. Yeah, I have a few of my dad's old tools, they give me great pleasure to use. Cheers, Jon
The most intricate guy I know on UA-cam. well explained. I was a maintenance fitter turner in the U.K but we only made spare parts that were obsolete but we never had to check things for squareness to that degree.
Thanks Dermot, much appreciated mate
That's all very well explained, Jon. Received loud and clear.
Hi Rusti, thanks for the comment and feedback, glad you found it useful. Cheers, Jon
good video Jon..thanks for your time
Great. I had never thought of measuring 2 parallel sides to establish perpendicular. Makes simple sense when you think about. Thanks Jon
Very welcome Phil
@Jon's Workshop Thank you very much for taking time to show how to self-prove perpendicularity from very little. Your explanations are concise and still verbose enough to convey the important details - a rare skill in itself. Thanks for sharing.
Great video, Jon.
One of the best perpendicularity references available for a machinist "on the cheap" is making a cylindrical square from a length of ground bar. Chuck it up in the lathe, face off one end and hollow out the centre slightly so that, when place on that end, it's only resting on the rim.
Hi Wibbly wobbly, thanks for the comment and feedback. Cylinder squares are excellent, turned on a lathe works as long as the diameter is parallel along it's length which I am sure you already know 😉. Cheers, Jon
Piston gudgeon pins are an excellent ready made cylinder square
@@philmenzies2477 Oooh, I like that.
Jon, once again you teach and again, I learn. Thanks, Jon, for making it simple but valuable. You are very good at explaining.
Hi Terry, thanks for the comment and feedback mate, much appreciated and glad you found it useful. Cheers, Jon
Gday John, great informative video that was very helpful, thanks for taking the time to explain with no bullshit involved, cheers
Hi Matty, thanks for the comment and feedback, glad you enjoyed it. Cheers, Jon
Good to see how to work accurately is done. Picked up some pointers there John, even though I rarely get the chance to work that accurate. Cheers Tony
Thanks Tony, much appreciated mate.
Excellent technique for determining and measuring squareness/perpendicularity on equipment in everyones workshop, very useful 👍.
Thanks for sharing.
Glad it was helpful!
Thanks for the very well explained lesson. I was struggling with this exact problem on some parts I was making. Now I know. Boy granite squares and cylinder squares are expensive!
Hi Mick, thanks for the comment and feedback. Yep, you can spend a fortune on this stuff but it's not necessary with a bit of jiggery pokery. Cheers, Jon
Thank you - I need that 👍😎👍
Great video Jon. Shows the best setup
Regards.
Steve.
A valuable addition to the workshop tips series Jon.
Thanks Dean
Hi Jon, very informative, thank you! 👍😃 Regards Tony
Hi Tony, thanks for the comment and feedback, much appreciated. Cheers, Jon
Many thanks Jon I enjoyed and learnt a lot from the video please keep them coming
Hi Derek, thanks for the comment and feedback, much appreciated. Cheers, Jon
Very interesting, just learnt heaps. THANK YOU.
Hi my1956, thanks for the comment and feedback, much appreciated. Cheers, Jon
Morning Jon. Very informative and interesting. Having a known standard is indeed the key to all we do. Thank you for sharing 👏👏👍😀
Hi Andrew, thanks for the comment and feedback, it certainly is. Cheers, Jon
Thanks Jon! Good information. 👍
Thanks Dudley. Cheers, Jon
Very good video there. Really clear straightforward well delivered explanation. Great stuff, and thank you for taking the time to do this. Laurie
Hi Laurie, thanks for the comment and feedback, much appreciated. Cheers, Jon
Very informative video Jon. I have a surface plate now and already had an old Moore and Wright scribing block with the V cutout. I'm going to source a large ball and carry out these tests. Thanks for sharing your knowledge Jon. Cheers Nobby
Hi Nobby, thanks for the comment and feedback, glad you found it useful. Cheers, Jon
Always a treat when another creator explains and demonstrates things that help others. Speaking of square, my 73 year old home was built so far out of Squareness that installing the new metal roof gave us night mares (@@)! Thx for sharing Jon, have a super wk end, PS - I mailed you a couple of stickers last November, did they show up? Let me know and will resend,
Ty. This was great!
Well explained Jon enjoyable video thank you
Hi Martin, thanks for the comment and feedback, much appreciated. Cheers, Jon
Much appreciated.
What ho Grasshopper,
Another good lesson for your viewers
I might take issue with you on the "cosine error" issue, If I were to be pedantic, who me?, as your aim is to reach the same reading on the dti dial there is no cosine error as you are not taking a measurement but using a reference point. See the point?😉
Back when I was setting up my home shop i used to visit a pre owned tool shop run by a lovely old chap who ran it as a retirement hobby. I got some real bargains, as did all his customers, and I know regret not buying one of his many cylinder squares.
One of the things I bought from him was a Myford super 7 on a Myford industrial stand together with a brand new 3 phase converter, I wanted an imperial lathe as my Colchester is metric, he must have really hated me as I had to pay 300 quid for the lot.😊 I know how to make people jealous, amongst my other talents!😂😂
ATB
C
PS, if you like cheap, I'm told gudgeon pins from big diesel engines make a good starting point to make a cylinder square if you can lay your hands on a new or unworn one. They have a lovely lapped finish and can be quite large enough for home shop use.
PPS, you never stop me quoting "flat, square and parallel" none of this perpendicular nonsense.
Hi Chris, thanks for the comment. You are quite right on the cosine error! Slip of the mind and tongue lol. Buggers up my OCD though to see any DTI not attacking the workpiece square on! Wow, you got a bargain there. Cheers, Jon
@@jonsworkshop yup don't we all have ocd, although people do get obsessed with cosine errors when you only need to see a lack of movement rather than an actual or a quantifiable amount.
Even better bargain as it is the Super 7B with screw cutting gearbox, just think how much cheaper it would have been if he liked me.😉
His was a shop that all the local machinists flocked to, and in my case a forty Mile round trip, and is sadly missed.
very interesting and educational! Thanks for that Jon! stay healthy!
Hi Chris, thanks for the comment and feedback, much appreciated. Cheers, Jon
Nice one Fred ! 🍺🍺🍺
Brilliant stuff Jon. It is funny, I just bought a surface gauge that has the ball end on the post for just this reason. It is an ex MOD one from the 1950s still in its wax coating! I got it as I am trying to get the bits together to have a try at scraping. thought your video was excellent. You have a talent for making any concept understandable.
very informative thank you
Great, thanks for sharing 🙂🙂
Hi Jon, thanks for the very interesting video. I didn’t know about the ball as a bumper. Thanks for that. Do you remember where you bought the shown 1-2-3 block. I hope you can help me with a link to the vendor. Thanks! Eric
Hi Eric, thanks for the comment and feedback. Unfortunately I can't remember, they were Chinese, I thought Ebay but can't find anything in my purchase history. All Chinese stuff is much the same I think so it's worth a gamble based on the price. Cheers, Jon
Jon, a year later, and I've thought of a question... Would it matter if the ball bearing had a flat ground into it?
Question for you Jon. Stefan Gotteswinter did a video where he made a Squareness Comparator with a semicircular bumper at the front. Made me wonder could you use a bearing instead of the ball? Cheers Nobby
Hi Nobby, thanks for the comment and question. In short, yes. What I showed was the poor man's version of what Stefan did, and achieves similar accuracy. Any ground regular surface would work (including a bearing shell). Cheers, Jon
@@jonsworkshop Thanks for that Jon. I think I can get my hands on a bearing easier that a ball, and at least it won't roll off the bench never to be seen again Cheers Nobby
Thank you
Having recently been given a beautiful little surface gauge in exchange for some machining I was baffled by the vee shape in the front of the base, what could it be for? Now I know! Very helpful video. Cheers.
Hi Nigel, thanks for the comment. I think the V is just for clearance for the upright (might be wrong). But it's very handy for this check😊. Cheers, Jon
@@jonsworkshop it is clearance, plus it allows the upright to pass through and measure below the guage, using or not using the pins at the rear, as as I understand.
Be careful when using with a ball, unless the vee is machined and perpendicular to the base the ball can ride up off the table. Some are just cast in, or painted.
Morning Jon, this topi is very interesting, not sure that this level of accuracy would be something I need to aspire to, a reasonable quality machinist square is sufficient for me, good to know though 👴🏻👍
Hi Terry, thanks for the comment and feedback. You never know, might come in useful at some point 😉. Cheers, Jon
when you measured the parallelism on the 123 block would you not sweep both sides? reason I ask is if you sweep only one side like you did, and it was ok, there could still be a possibility (highly unlikely) of a dip in the middle of the other side ?
Great video, would like more like this if possible.
Hi Paul, thanks for the comment. Yes, definitely a possibility of a dip, and the method you suggest is correct. I did the "Making assumptions" thing lol
You can fix those oil stains by turn the surface plate over !
Remember I was born up side down.
Kit from Down Under
Hi Kit, thanks for the comment. Lol, if you stretch up I will let you use the underside, might need your hard hat on though! Cheers, Jon
What happened to the Fortnightly videos 😊
Hi Dave, thanks for the comment. Have a few in the camera so just burning them off😉. I still think the 2 weeks is on the radar. Cheers, Jon
1) rub your surface plate with your hand and it is immediately not clean.
2) If you have three 'square' items, and they all match up against each other in all three combinations, then they are all square. Nothing else required (other than the surface plate).
3) Your 'checked' 1-2-3 block is not a reference, it is a sub-reference. This is an important distinction in quality control..
If I were to take issue with your comment I might say that as the aim is to make sure the surface plate is dust free when you mean "clean" the possibility of leaving an even layer of hand oil is irrelevant for intended purpose.
Regarding the 123 block, for the shown purpose once checked for precision it does indeed become a reference. It was checked for precision in its own right not referenced from another, therefore it is by definition not a sub anything. Just saying.
@@chrisstephens6673 Check how standards work. There is a reference standard, which is used to calibrate others- which are traceable back to the reference standard. These are sub-references, named to avoid confusion with the actual standard. Why? Because each calibration process introduces errors, which accumulate. Using commercial dial gauges, especially in a workshop environment, will certainly do so. That is why things like slip gauges come in laboratory : toolroom : shop floor varieties. Accuracy costs.
The block in question is a sub reference, because it is a sub-standard. Not a pejorative label, it just places it in the accuracy hierarchy. Perfectly fit for workshop use, but NOT a reference item.
@@Tensquaremetreworkshop oh dear, someone more pedantic than me. We are talking workshop reference not NPL standards.
I hope you don't ever use a vernier caliper, their inherent inaccuracy due to the measuring points being out of plane with the scale must be a real pain for you.
I don't mean to be snippy but get real,
@@chrisstephens6673 Thank you! Pedantic means accurate … I use measuring equipment commensurate with the accuracy required. Knowing the limitations of what you are using is key. Also, ‘Reference' is not an object- it is shorthand for ‘reference standard'.
@@Tensquaremetreworkshop reference, the use of a source of Information in order to ascertain something.
Standard, something used as a measure, norm, or model in comparative evaluations.
Strictly speaking a square can never be a standard in international standrd terms, like a kilogram or some other physical property, but only a reference. A square only defines a quarter of a circle, not a length or mass, which can be defined. The subject then changes to calibration but that could just prolong the debate because all calibration is referenced to a standard, and round and round it goes.🤣
Again don't think I'm being awkward but I like intellectual arguments, or is that debates.😉
If you like check out solid rock machine shop. He shows how to make one.
Hi Joseph, thanks for the comment, I will do. Cheers, Jon
Sorry Jon, What was that Perpendicular what arity!!! Nother good'n Dude, need to get a laptop so I can watch these in the shop where all me stuff is instead of the backroom😂Stay safe n well Dude. TFS, GB :)
Glad you enjoyed it
You are assuming the surface plate is flat. You have to start there and it can be proved that it is flat.
Hi David, correct, I didn't mention that, but most granite surface tables come with an inspection report as did mine, so I knew what I was working with. Also, I did point out quite a few times that this was about the method for a home shop, none of which will be working to Aerospace tolerances so any out of flatness of a surface plate or table will not really be detrimental to a home hobbyist.
Does this mean I’d need to take the rust off my block first before checking.
Hi Ian, thanks for the comment. Lol, yes, but not with an angle grinder😉👍. Cheers, Jon