LS9 HOW TO: EXTRA TORQUE!!
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- Опубліковано 15 жов 2024
- FULL 4.8L DYNO RESULTS-STOCK VS LS9, ADJUSTABLE CAM TIMING
ADVANCE VS RETARD THE CAM, CAN WE ADD THE MISSING TORQUE? How do adjustments in the cam timing alter the power curve? Can we enhance the lackluster, low-speed torque offered by the LS9?
this guy knows what he's doing and shares knowledge. everybody should give him a thumb up.
thanks for the good content. subscribed
thnx
Richard Holdener Richard...what would the best cam be for torque? Not looking for horsepower gain, just torque. I am installing a 5.3 in a 1967 Chevy TravelCruiser camper, and looking for more low speed torque to tow with. Will probably never reach 4500 rpm. Would playing with cam timing in a factory lm7 work?
@@blackwidowprobe Brian Tooley has a torque cam specifically for trucks, Richard did a test on them last year. +20ftlbs at 3000 over the factory 5.3 cam and 21" of idle vacuum. Put a set of longtubes on it and enjoy the torque. The cam is designed to work with the factory shift points and peaks power at about 5500rpm, only a couple rpm later than stock. It makes more power everywhere at every rpm tested.
@@timothybayliss6680 would that cam be good for my 2011 silverado on 36x15.50 on 20x12s I do alot of mudding and towing and want to vvt and dod delete mine. Already have long tubes no cats no rear 02s tuned out
Well Richard, I think this test confirmed what we already knew. But you can't be sure without testing. Waiting for that sloppy cam vs the world test.
“This poor little 4.8 has seen a ton of camshafts.” .... I know that wasn’t intended to sound sexual ....
It's seen a lot of shafts shoved in its hole.
At least they were always drenched in lube.
😂
So glad to see this tested. Too bad the results weren’t more impressive. Thanks for all your hard work!
Thank you!
Richard Holdener Have you ever done a 460 say 1994 or 1995 efi that has to stay smog legal?
You need to do some LS or LT VVT cam testing!!! Use HP Tuners on a factory ECM.
Absolutely...
Thanks for all you do Richard.
Yes please!
“Best cam...... one that opens the valves”, denmah
When installing the ls9 cam do I need to change my timing cover and which springs do you suggest?
I was playing with cam timing 30 years ago in my 3.x HP Briggs & Stratton push mower. My results were much more disappointing than yours. Thanks for the video!
Congratulations on 60 thousand subscribers Richard. Well done Mate. 👍
Thanks 👍
Mark Thomas : Hey...97 kay...today!
This was helpful I’m swapping a gen III 4.8 into a Canyon. Got an LS7 cam gen VI. Was looking forward to knowing the numbers it can do. Not worried about low end loss I’m coming from 175 HP I5. I expect great things.
Spot on, exactly what I was wanting to see for LS9 cam, will save me heaps of time trying myself when in vehicle.
Another fantastic video Richard, you really need to setup a tip jar so viewers can show their appreciation of your work. To find out concrete answers to questions like this is valuable stuff.
Thanks, I have 494 big blocks in my propane bobtails. They run on propane through a "mixer" it is rated at 425 cfm.... my bmep noses over around 3500 rpm. We run the cam advanced as you would imagine...with 11 to 1's we get just over 500 foot pounds out of them.....not bad for .85 % of the power of gas and 1/2 the cfm of a normal setup.
yes, GM does want to kill torque and throttle response. The wide LSA also lets them run higher compression ratio to get better mpg. Run a 275* cam with 110 LSA and watch out!
Richard, Paul Vanderley taught me when I started building engines. You are just as knowledgeable, and you give great examples to demonstrate/explain where anyone can understand. I appreciate your content!
thnx-I have lots of questions then go find the answers
Congratulations on 60K. Those additional 10K appear to have happened over night. Soon to be at a million man.
thnx-that might be a ways off-just happy that people like the info
Richard Holdener you got this!😉
Thank you for all the great information. Planning my very first 5.3 LC9 build. And yes I'm going boost. What I have learned on your channel is absolutely amazing. Number one thing I have learned boost is good! I will be going with the razor blade rebuild! First motor doing it all myself wish me luck
Good luck bud. Cleanliness and good lighting.
you got this
Do you have any tests on an LC9 with 799 heads? Been looking at heads? Or does anyone run this combo
With the lobe separation angle of that cam it's always going to be at a deficit until the very peak. A tighter LSA, shorter duration cam with the same overlap would bring in the midrange, give a lot more power under the curve, be more fun to drive and faster under almost all conditions.
Your videos save me time and money with the info provided. The info you put out is awesome
Good test. I'd like to see the LS9 cam cut on a 112.5 instead of a 122.5 but if your gonna do that youl spend the same as buying a better cam.
Vvt for the win.. holley needs to get that into the term x system..
I've said this before, but really have no motivation to try it out... I bet there's a way to setup a table and driver for the plunger that's on the vvt. I haven't studied it too much but I'm thinking should be that easy
Ran a ls9 cam in a turbo 4.8 build I did a few years back. Didn't run a cam sensor just left it unplugged. No problems with stock ecu.
Love your HF tools. My favorite 10mm cause it's the first one I find lol. The colored sockets are the best, and I;ve yet to break one. In fact the only sockets I have that are cracked are snap on.... You can tell a lot about a mechanic by the tools he uses.
Dispelling all the forum myths on a daily basis. Great video.
I think this is all relative. We still have a motor that makes over 300 ftlbs for the entire duration of its powerband. Yes it looses tq compared too the anemic 5.3 and 4.8 cams, but even on the 4.8 it STILL exceeds 300ftlbs for the entire duration of the tq curve. Thats perfectly drive able. Your not beating the shit out of your valvetrain with crazy lobes and not sacrificing any driveability. Would this be the best choice if your towing? Obv not. But for a street vehicle its gonna be cheap, really reliable, and make tons of power when you open up the loud pedal. Seems like a winner.
I grabbed a ls9 cam for my truck and yes I can attest to the loss of bottom end. It was the cheapest cam even cheaper than bone stock. But I can say since I put in the 4:11 gear it kinda made up for the low end loss.
Loss of low speed torque is good in snow country. If it creeps along slowly it may save your ass in a snowstorm. I had a 98 Olds with a cam. It would creep along real slow. Never got stuck with an open diff.
it does charge on the big end
Another question answered! I’m thinking the super-wide LSA kills the mid-range no matter what. How about the same test with the LS3 cam? It doesn’t have much in the way of overlap, but more than the LS9. OTOH, an extra$200-$300 gets you a real aftermarket cam that works. Never underestimate the effect of torque on drivability, though. Not so much if it’s a drag car, obviously.
Great vid content. Advancing the cam moves the piston to intake valve clearance closer.
I would like to see the LS9 cam versus the Lingenfelter GT2-3 in a LQ9 with the STS-V supercharger. Since the LQ9 is 211/230 .562 122.5 and the GT2-3 is 207/220 .571 .578 118.5. The GT2-3 was the "gold standard" for the MP112 and MP122 for the longest time but the LS9 obviously has more duration with a little less lift.
Gen1 torque monster eg rv cam vs 5.3l ls gen 3 or 4. Can the 5.3 compare the the gen1? Who will make more torque? On the street it’s all about useable torque at street rpm.
Another great video,
This video makes it easy to understand timing and the effect on the power curve
Note out of Matt’s book, don’t look at your cam bearings or they’ll be bad.
Rich, this was fun but we all knew what was going to happen...let see what you can do with a VVT cam setup now.
I like the idea of factory upgrades for cheap. Richard if you do more on the K series engine, some of them have 50 degrees of timing adjustment. 25 degrees adv and ret.
yes-cool stuff there
holy cow!! I would have thought the results would have been bigger differences !
Ya VVT seems mush less cool or important I mean if you had the best of it all that's only a couple hp and ft lbs at the top and bottom
This was informative for off road build/Tune that run in the idle to 3K range.
Richard could open/expand some video of his to this genre.
On top of losing torque, I'd have to get the right sprocket, different timing cover and move the cam position sensor and hope it works with my stock ecu all this cost money on top of what the LS9 cam would cost me so I'd rather just get a summit truck cam for only a bit of extra cost
That 4.8 is like the town bicycle for camshafts 😂😂❤❤
I'm hoping you test some Tick Performance TowMax Cam's soon!
Thanks for all your hard work!
i just ran a tick cam
Which video did I miss it?
We saw similar things back when 302 Fords were being built. The stock late model cam gears were retarded from the factory....add some miles with chain stretch and things got pretty soggy down low and in the midrange. Swap in a fresh OLD gear....which was almost 1/2 tooth advanced with a fresh chain, then throw in 4 more degrees advance and the motors would run a lot better. Well worth doing for sure. And one thing the dyno isn't showing is the sub-3000 rpm running which is where the advanced cam really shows the advantages on a normal street engine. Good video!
The LS9 is 125$ shipped on amazon! With a turbo LS setup IMO, the last thing I want on street car is more power down low.... boost takes care of that easily. Great cam for the $!
Agreed, it makes 300ftlbs accross the entire tq curve already. Boost is going too amplify that. Easy 500 or 600ftlbs at 3000 rpm. Killing some of that low end tq is good for transmissions lol. Especially if you have a modest turbo that lights like a candle.
Rich, I'd love to see a test of hp/tq changes with coolant temp changes from 140*-230* Also the effects of A/F with coolant temp.
it changes power-but we adjust AF to keep it constant
Richard you are awesome. I appreciate your time and efforts!
I was excited to see this test. Along with you, not happy with the results but now we know how much the cam timing is worth. Great job brother! Thanks again. Keep up the great work!
Sloppy vs the world is still exciting me ... haha
just finished the na portion of that test
Awesome! In for the results. 😎
Good power up to 7000 with that LS9 cam, sounds like it'd be a lot of fun running it out!
This is great. Need more like this. FYI - you could do this via tune on the newer VVT engines!
yes
Richard Holdener thats one I’ve always been really interested in. How much is there to gain with just by changing the vvt tables on an otherwise stock motor. On say an LMG 5.3 if you’re taking requests. 🙂
So you asked about this with a stock ecu. Well every ecu or operating system is a little different, but in older 1x systems 4 degrees wouldn't trigger a "crank/cam correlation" code you might get away with 6 . But gen 4 4x systems would show a code around 4 degrees. I've been advancing cams for all these guys that buy the btr stage 3 and 4 truck cans with stock converters and just dont get why they got no low end....
thnx
Your comment and this video helps alot. Just put a Ls2 cam in gen IV 4.8 in 95 k1500 manual and advanced it 4 degrees. No start p0016 cam/crank correlation. Going to take it all back apart and try 2 degrees. Hopefully it will work or should I go straight up? Again thinks for the videos.
Maybe the stock 6.0/Ls1 cam would be the best bang for the buck here. Already a 3 bolt rear cam sensor, and doesn’t loose too much down low compared to the LS9, if my memory is correct. And they are a dime a dozen. And the LSA is 116 vs 122
Engine will start and run with no cam sensor... I ran my LS7 that way running a Jesel belt and no sensor. it’s a little like roulette odds and evens as the engine may be 180 out and pop out the exhaust on crank.. I just re cycle the ignition an go again and most times it will fire up on the second or third attempt if it didn’t go on the first hit
I knew it wouldn’t make as much of a difference as being ground on 112+2, but I really hoped the torque curve would be in the middle of the stock lm7 and ls9 installed straight up. It’s a dirt cheap cam, but not good for stock truck application or daily driver.
I think it’s pretty cool of adjusting the time in like that or the event but I’m wondering what would happen if you change the rocker arm ratio from 1.7 to 1.8 change the left on the cam I Wonder how that would work
More lift, more air fuel, bigger boom, more hp.
Just started watching your videos, and am loving the content. You are putting all kinds of LS specific content that is great, but was wondering if while you are at it if you could debunk some common myths? Like say is there any hp change with different spark plugs or wires like the companies claim? Or how much does a mechanical fan Clutch take in HP, Or electric water pump for that matter. Dirty oil vs clean oil, oil weights, oil filters, the possibilities are many! Maybe meaningless info but interesting nonetheless. Keep up the good work!
Pure text book!!! Keep up the good work!!
For the older guy's that owned Triumph twins (motorcycles) that was an option. Take the timing cover off set the gears to A or B.
Richard should look at the Ford barra engine and intec all 6 cylinder here in Australia. Intec shoc 6 cylinder with only 35 pound's off boost doing 7.5 over quarter. road going barra 6 cylinder putting out 2100 hp at rear wheels all on factory blocks and heads of course there billet internals .dynamite performance has a dodge avenger prostock with a barra in it destroked running 50 pounds boost over 2000 rwhp 10000 revs traction is a problem. Considering a mighty 2jz running 100 pounds boost billet block etc Ford coming real fast.
Great test, now repeat advancing the ls9 cam in a 6.0 with forced induction just to be sure!
if it doesn't work na-it doesn't work under boost (results on a 6.0L would be same-maybe slightly bigger variations)
Was hoping for more gains down low , since I'm running one lol . But with a quick spooling turbo I don't really lack low end torque . Thank you for the test .
quick spool FTW
i know it's been a long time but do you mind sharing which turbo you had/used
I’d like you to finally kick the LS 9 cam to the curb, and buy a 209/217 cam from Summit and run that. Show us what a higher lift mid range cam can do.
You definitely want to be careful adv or ret on a 24x motor. All the CRK events are evenly spaced at 15 deg apart and the CMP sync event needs to fall somewhere in the middle of the TDC event, to stay away from the falling and rising edges of the CRK. if it gets too close, it could jump into the next one and adv or ret the ignition timing 15 deg. This wouldnt be a problem on the 58x (60-2) motors because there is a sync event (the -2) on the crank itself.
thnx
Now that's how you keep subscribers and make more! Pennies make dollars.. A lot of people don't get that but enough of these pennies and you can be rich... with horsepower and torque, that is. Awesome video!
So, how many engine dynos have you just slap worn out? Great channel, answers to a lot of the late night bench racing "what if....." questions.
Changing the 1x cam gear 8deg shouldn't affect the cam sync. The missing tooth crank wheel is used for timing, the ecu uses the missing tooth to find TDC. The cam 1x is only used to determine what phase the engine is on. (#1 cyl is on exhaust or compression)
In my experience I've noticed to a certain degree wide lsa cams start losing top end hp pretty fast once you start advancing them more than a couple degrees, more so than on a Narrow LS cam
I'm not sure if it has to do with pumping losses or where the exhaust valve is opening and closing, this test was one of the least drastic I've seen on this type of test, and yeah Richard do you ever sleep? My goodness
Can't you bypass the ECU? I would if it was me ... If it gives false readings ... In this case I would be ok with loss of power if more torque went to the wheels I'm thinking Traction
Please do some Texas Speed Cams. 220r, 224r, 228r etc in a 5.3
I advanced a cam 4 degrees and picked up 4 tenths on a 388 SBC. I would love to have seen dyno numbers to know what changed, besides it making more torque down low.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed the chain slop!
they all have it-he even mentioned it in the video-and talks about himself in the 3rd person
@@richardholdener1727 The meta reference is complete, I was referring to you pointing out the slop only seconds after I remarked to myself.
So much for degreeing a cam in, on the street you would not notice any difference cheers from OZ.
Yup, personally I don't exactly see the point of degreeing a camshaft at all unless you're a serious serious racer, bracket racer or you're running a stock-engine circle track class or something. The knowledge is nothing to be gained on the street.
I'm glad I degreed my Comp Cam. That was how I found out their quality control was shit and all the exhaust base circles had a dip in them. On N/A probably not a super big deal but, on a turbo set up the last thing you want is the exhaust valve being cracked .020" before hitting the lobe ramp.
@@littleherms3285 Thats a bugger one of the biggest cam makers did you let them know.
Well i reread lol the lower compression from late cam timing can reduce torque..make it soft on bottom end . Part of reason i perfer to know what the cold cranking compression. I think your better off with good heads and a tad less cam to make power na
When i was a kid i used to cut the cam bettween the lobes and weld it narrower on a b, s 5hp haha. Being as those ls cam are steel it would weld easy haha. Keep up the testing👍
good info to know for guys running this cam with VVT.
Very close to the question I asked a few videos back. About an LS9 with a 4.8 cam.
see how smart you are
The flip side of this is, that for a light car (sub 3000 lb), this is a great low buck option. Tires are expensive and only get so wide.
Richard Holdener, I'm getting ready to put a Gen IV 4.8L with VVT, non DOD, E38ecm into my 69 Chevelle. I can only afford to buy one camshaft and want to do the cam change while engine is still on the ground. What would be your camshaft of choice if you were me? I'm thinking that I want to keep the VVT function.
Oh yeah, street car with an occasional 1/4 mile trip.
I've been wondering what cam to go to for streetable car. But also wondering if I could take my 5.3 aluminum block engine and use the 4.8 crank shaft then the LS Cam possibly some better springs and a big mass air intake.
Essentially building s modern 302.
I'd love to hear thoughts.
Best Wishes for a fantastic New Year and Merry Christmas.
a 5.3l block with a 4.8l crank is just a 4.8L. you need a 6.0l block (4.0-inch bore) and 4.8l crank and rods with 6.0l pistons. but that isn't a 302 inch motor. I have a destroked ls3 video up
You're the man Richard. I love your content
What about just mill the heads ?
I used Ls9 camshaft on many na ls3s
And made from 478rwhp to 496rwhp .. I also ran Ls9 cam vs 224/234 .624” 115lsa and Ls9 lost by 11hp (from 5900)... both cams made same tq 458. That was custom ecs cam (800$ cam/springs/pushrods vs 160$ Ls9 cam stock springs ) plus Ls9 sounded stock.
I usually mill the heads 0.040” to help with tq down low but also gain up top .
milling helps any motor and cam comb add power-it doesn't help the LS9 add low-speed torque
Didn´t some truck LS engines use variable valve timing? I always wondered why noboby adapted the system for performance applications.
Most folks delete the system.
@@rcairforceone Yes, I just wonder why.
Until recently, the aftermarket/tuners didn't have enough experience with it to take advantage of it, so it was easier to delete.
@@n8rivera74 Too bad. The honda guys don´t commnly delete VTec as far as I know. At least on paper it would benefit the LS greatly as well.
they usually delete VVT because it limits the cam timing you can apply for performance use-works well with milder cams
I have seen 50hp and 100 ft lb gains and losses with 2deg cam timing change on 1000hp turbo 7.4L motors
Advancing a cam is not a substitute for putting the lobes on a proper LSA. It is robbing Peter to pay Paul. Test the same lobes but on say 116 will be a lot better and won’t hurt the top as much you think.
There is a test on the channel testing the same lobes on 3 different lsa. The only thing is Richard didn't record idle vacuum. The result are kinda what you expect if you know what your doing.
Thanks, that was interesting.
I'd think you'd need to be careful when advancing the cam though... Would be easy to run into valve & piston clearance issues.
lots of p-v on the stock cam-especially with this wide lsa
@@richardholdener1727 Maybe on that particular application, but I'm speaking in general terms.
Do you think the LS9 cam would be more effective in a 6.2 with more cubes and better rec port heads?
Yes
I live above 5000 ft. altitude, and I can't ever remember retarding a cam. I think we always tried to keep the lobe centers between 108 and 112 degrees thinking it would help trap cylinder pressure. We might use smaller runners and intake valves to help port velocity.
Could we see a btr nsr cam vs the btr stage iv truck cam? Or have you already done it? Hard to remember all your videos haha. From what I've read they're the same cam just with lower lift on the NSR and different lsa. I'm curious to see how much different the graphs look between the two and how much power the NSR gives up with the lower lift as well as gains over the factory lm7 cam.
a stage 4 gives up a lot of low end-difference between nsr and std truck cams is minimal
How about a test with Rhodes lifters at a low enough speed that people can see the effects of old school variable valve timing.
might be good
How about a cam test where you get the nastiest, most ridiculous-lift cam you can get, with springs to handle it, titanium retainers, and compare it to the stock cam? One where you need some clay to make sure you aren't touching or getting within 1/100th of an inch of pistons at any time. Make the engine really a rev monster, and document it? Smalll blocks these days are doing better than big blocks of yore.
i HAVE RUN ALL THE CAM THAT WILL FIT IN AN LS VS A STOCK ONE
@@richardholdener1727 I will look at your channel more!
Great video. Lots of info and very cool to see this type of test.
Disappointing results-is this a function of the LSA? IMHO there must be major gains by varying cam timing otherwise OEM would not install VVT systems on their engines. Please run this test again with a different cam. Thank you.
There are gains to be seen from a VVT system. The difference is, what he was doing here was making static changes to the cam timing, meaning the advance or retard is the same through the entire RPM range. A VVT system is able to change cam timing on the fly throughout the RPM range, which is were the advantage comes in. All those changes he was showing on the graph of gaining or losing power at the bottom or top based on cam timing... a VVT system can do that on the fly and get the best of both worlds.
Hi Richard,
Nice to see that you tested the LS 9 Cam.
I have a BMW E30 with a LS1 engine.
It’s a competition Drift car.
I make the engine swap last winter and it’s an awesome engine.
I watched a lot of videos from you.
I´m looking for some extra hp´s now.
My Setup is:
LS 2 intake manifold
102mm TB
LS 2 Injectors
LS 9 Cam
Custom Headers
MSD Atomic LS Efi Kit
I run with 95 octane
Maybe something around 420-450 hp (never was on the dyno until yet) would be nice and I don’t know if an other cam with my setup is enough for this hp target.
Can you recommend me a good way?
Best regards
Tim
lots of better cams than the LS9
wouldn't 1 tooth be more like 16 degrees since its based on degrees of crankshaft rotation? Cam moves at half the speed of the crank. 360/44=8.18. 8.18*2=16.32. Correct me if I'm wrong.
we were talking cam degrees-crank degrees would be double
This video offered great clarity in the subject of advancing or retarding a camshaft.
Awesome content!!
amazing good vidéo this winter i am instaling ls9 cam / spring on ls6 stock whit help off 400 off NOS the trany have 4500 stall .......well se the result 😁tanks merci bien
400 hp shot?
@@richardholdener1727 yes,,,,, this sumer it was stock cam whit 300 and next year new cam 400 of juicy nos shot
Richard can you get a JY explorer 5.0 and do this test with a stock HO cam? I figured explorer motor would be the most common configuration with the GT40 setup
Hey Richard. To answer your question on advancing or retard teeth, the answer is both. On the early Gen 3 16238212, 411, and 12576106 PCM's many times they did not have enough resolution and refresh rate to trip a camshaft position or correlation code. I've diagnosed a few builds who had camshafts up to two teeth off, but ended up running decent at idle and with no codes, however PTV caused lifter and exhaust valve damage. The later PCMs for Gen 4 after the GTO's E38 and E40 utilize a CANBUS system and 58x resolution which is much more sensitive to camshaft position changes. Even with adjustable set after around 4 degrees of camshaft offset the computer is not happy and you must utilize some factory tune tricks ti get it to run happy.
thnx
LS9 cam specs: www.prestonmoore.com/2018_Sierra_L83/LS9_Cam_Specs.pdf
I see that purple Harbor Freight socket, I have the same one!!
Hey Richard, new viewer, love the info! I'd love to see some lq9 builds or even a "Self tuner Olympics" featuring self tuners on n/a, noX, boost, large duration cams, ect.... I'm really curious on how they can keep up. And 👍👍 on Happy Hour also
LS 7 cam is looking good.
Don't you sleep?!
sean hayes do you? I don’t either. 😂
Ney
Something with overlap will respond better to adv/ret adjustment
Harbor freight tools ftw
Wish you would have ran it on tooth off both directions. It could have been a good educational video on lining the dots up and how big of difference.
the advance we put in was a full tooth
@@richardholdener1727 Are you sure about that. I thought I had my cam off one tooth on my gen 2 (LT1) but when i calculated it out it would have been 10 degrees of cam/20 degrees of crank timing.