Eps 358: Something Fishy About The Hornady 7PRC
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- Опубліковано 12 тра 2024
- Welcome to the Ron Spomer Outdoors Podcast! There seems to be something fishy going on at Hornady. We've got some serious questions about Hornady Ammunition Manufacturing Company. There seems to be something fishy going on at Hornady with the 7PRC Cartridge, and we're going to get to the bottom of it in this episode of Ron Spomer Outdoors Podcast.
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Who is Ron Spomer
For 44 years I’ve had the good fortune to photograph and write about my passion - the outdoor life. Wild creatures and wild places have always stirred me - from the first flushing pheasant that frightened me out of my socks in grandpa’s cornfield to the last whitetail that dismissed me with a wag of its tail. In my attempts to connect with this natural wonder, to become an integral part of our ecosystem and capture a bit of its mystery, I’ve photographed, hiked, hunted, birded, and fished across much of this planet. I've seen the beauty that everyone should see, survived adventures that everyone should experience. I may not have climbed the highest mountains, canoed the wildest rivers, caught the largest fish or shot the biggest bucks, but I’ve tried. Perhaps you have, too. And that’s the essential thing. Being out there, an active participant in our outdoor world.
Produced by: Red 11 Media - www.red11media.com/
Disclaimer
All loading, handloading, gunsmithing, shooting and associated activities and demonstrations depicted in our videos are conducted by trained, certified, professional gun handlers, instructors, and shooters for instructional and entertainment purposes only with emphasis on safety and responsible gun handling. Always check at least 3 industry handloading manuals for handloading data, 2 or 3 online ballistic calculators for ballistic data. Do not modify any cartridge or firearm beyond what the manufacturer recommends. Do not attempt to duplicate, mimic, or replicate anything you see in our videos. Firearms, ammunition, and constituent parts can be extremely dangerous if not used safely.
Choosing to use the most stable powder you can source is all well and good, but even if it's a temporary change, you need to make an announcement and update the box data to the appropriate velocity. No matter your intentions, false advertising is not a good look.
WaterGate, IraqGate, PizzaGate and now Hornady’s POWDER-GATE! Congrats Hornady, you’ve entered the conspiracy/scandal realm.
I just got an xbolt in 7prc. All i have to say is thank goodness for Federal! Both the Hornady precision hunter and match ammo avg around 2820fps out of the 24” barrel. They grouped about an inch.
The Outfitter was about 2940 but shot the worst groups ive ever shot.
However the Federal ammo gave me an average of 2985fps and constantly grouped about .75 inch.
Its a super awesome caliber but Hornady really dropped the ball with it.
Did you clean to bare metal before trying CX?
ua-cam.com/video/ULVKvt1MCpg/v-deo.html
@@jhoppmann Yea it was the first ammo i shot in the new barrel. Wouldnt group. I came back to it after about 100 rounds of other ammos. Again with a fresh clean barrel. Still wouldnt group.
Shame because I prefer to hunt with coppers and all my other rifles use only coppers. Mainly barnes though.
@@DanielMartinez0394 i stuck with the copper with my 300prc. Found the right powder and gave the copper some time to seed in and I'm at or under an MOA. I found that the powder and a little closer to the lands seating depth made it work. More time and I'm confident i can get under an MOA easily.
@@DanielMartinez0394even if it’s the first rounds you shot, you might need to clean it, even from a new rifle. Most rifles have fired a few rounds from the factory to verify them I believe (could be wrong or only certain ones do)
@@TheAcesShowa good friend of mine bought himself a 45-70,planning to shoot lead gas-checked bullets. I also thought that barrels were tested by the factory and recommended that he clean before shooting lead for better accuracy. He confirmed that there was copper in the barrel
Okay, so he talked a lot about the powders and why they can't get the ones they want to get the advertised velocities. That means they KNOW they're not hitting the advertised numbers, and CAN'T. If you don't have the powder to hit the numbers you advertise, adjust the numbers. Don't tell me you can hit 3,000 when you KNOW you can't. Yeah, I know you can't re-run the tests for every lot number. But you CAN work out a CONSERVATIVE estimate that the average guy can expect to achieve. I'd rather buy a box of ammo that advertises 2,900 and actually get 2,950 than get the same speed when you set my expectations at 3,000. Under-promise, over-deliver. Customer loyalty 101, folks. Basics.
Also if they change powder. They are selling a different product and need to change the labeling so people know what they're getting
@@jackry-they-them-ze-zir No argument here. It's better to set good expectations than come up with the Spomer Spin episode.
You would think they have to slap a sticker saying its 2800fps instead of 3000 like the federal loads that use their same ELD-X and meeting the 3000FPS since they still have a supply of the powder hornady were using
@@jackry-they-them-ze-zir the bottom line for me is the latest and greatest is not always great ! hand load your ammo and don't buy hornadys target like hunting ammo !
OK, so change the advertise velocity on the box. Until you can get your original powder back
Hornady should have disclosed the change up-front….people would understand. Long range accuracy DEPENDS on consistent velocity! Hornady don’t BS loyal customers.
Yeah, temporary isn't a fucking excuse. When I pay over $70 a box they can afford to print a different number on their damn box.
@@jackry-they-them-ze-ziragree
False advertising = legal no no
Theres an atty thinking a class action would be the correct action
@@robertburke2804Great idea…class action law suit. Ammo shortages everywhere, prices going up, let’s see if we can put one of the best companies out of business or at least make them lose money. Hornady has done a better job than any other ammo company of keeping ammo on the shelves and their components are less expensive than Nosler, Berger, Sierra, or Barnes, yet similar quality. If they weren’t willing to make compromises due to fear of legal action, there would be a lot more empty shelves. I’ll bet that will help the situation. Maybe people should appreciate that they are doing a good job overall and if you they aren’t good enough for you, hand load or spend your money on a different brand…if you can find it in stock
@@jackry-they-them-ze-zir and the poor guy that can't afford a chronograph and takes the data off the box of ammo and orders a Leupold cdx scope dial and can't hit a dam thing !
Seth is a loyal employee and explained well why "current" lower velocity levels are related to initial test components and are not currently readily available for the volume of ammunition they produce. But they also control the printing press and the numbers printed on their ammo boxes. Printed "Asterisks" can be added to compensate for the discrepancies in velocity, or print a range say; 2,800 - 3,000 fps can be obtained depending on your individual rifle.
A sticker that says velocities may vary. Easily done.
They don't even have to add a range- simply state velocities *UP TO* 3000fps. Problem solved
Yah, this 3000 sticking point is a bit anal IMHO. But that "up to" or a range "from 2800-3000", if printed on all manufacture boxes would resolve it. But I've seen people freak out and cry fraud if it's 50 off. That's just absurd. Maybe I'm wrong, but I understood that there was a rule or something that if it's off by like 10% or 15% or something, then there's a prob and somethings off. These accusations of being off are all well under the 10%.
Surely change the box to let your customers know it has the slower “temporary” powder, then return to original box when supply problems are sorted. Would go a long way towards customer confidence. A simple sticker wouldn’t cost much.
Excellent point. Per haps publish the expected velocity as a range. Min/max.
I agree 100%. I would also say that the cost of the reprint of the stickers doesn’t even matter, and Hornady must eat it. While Seth didn’t outright lie during the interview, not admitting that this was an error on their part is dishonest, at best. The largest issue is that people bought the original ammo and now bought a completely different load that they would have no reason to believe they needed to resight in their rifle or calculate new trajectory data. Major error made by Hornady, I just wish they would fess up and apologize.
@@phild9813 Agree, but lying by omission is still lying.
And velocity is accuracy. He even admitted their substitute powder doesn't always perform as they expected.
@@stanwayne7224He also said other cartridges are affected but they're not as scrutinized so no big deal since nobody really notices. Sheesh. Not a good look.
Change the print on the boxes .
My rifle is 1950 m70 in 270 win. And going on 100 yrs and still one of the most popular cartridges out there .that said, it sounds like everyone's right about the 7prc. All he said was why it isn't doing what it is supposed to do shame on hornady. I believe 6.8 is smoking them .
I have been using the same rifle to shoot the Hunter Precision 7mm PRC. The older stuff with lot numbers beginning with a 1 have a higher velocity close to advertised. The boxes beginning with other numbers do not have the same velocity. I appreciate the interview but it feels like damage control. Last week I purchased Federal 175gr ELD-X and the velocity performance is better than Hornady. Maybe they should consider changing the advertised information on the box.
That guy gave a bullshit excuse. They could change the box if they change the powder.
Great info on lot numbers.
@@jackry-they-them-ze-zir ~Exactly correct!!
There is always something fishy going on a hornady
You are correct IMHO. I blame the latest family generation at the helm of Hornady trying to reinvent the wheel.
Guarantee there was a senior level meeting at Hornady which included representation from Sales/Marketing, Operations/Production and Customer Service when they couldn't get the powder. Sales/Marketing won.
Seth said 7 PRC was optimized for RETUMBO and Hornady didn't even publish data for that powder.
He said powders in that range of speed, not neccessarily Retumbo exclusively.
So here is my rebuttal. How do the numbers match up with the 6.8 western? Does it come close to velocity stated on factory ammo? If so we have a contradiction. How are they getting to box velocity and Hornady isn’t? Not just 6.8 western or 7mm prc. All ammo should be falling short.
Totally agree
It should not. I get what you’re saying, but you’re more so assuming than anything else. It also shows you were only half listening and ready to be mad. There’s a thousand different kinds of powder used across the entire ammo market, not every single type and brand is going to be affected, mainly because some didn’t have to change anything. And as mentioned Hornady had a choice to maintain speed and picked accuracy until they can get going again, there’s a chance 6.8 producers code velocity. Then again maybe no one has made a big enough stink about 6.8 yet and it’s in the same position.
@@CalebDeBoer Far from mad. Lot of things to get mad about in the world. Ammo velocities aren’t one of them 😂. Regardless of the volumes of powders available. It’s curious that only Hornady is receiving such scrutiny. A lot of companies have fanboys and a lot have critics. In this case I could care less. In this case it’s downright dishonest marketing. Plain and simple. You know what they say about excuses? That applies here.
@@CalebDeBoer I think the real issue is they knew the velocity didn’t match the box and didn’t disclose it. I mean put out a press release and no one would care but they waited till they got caught.
And he admitted that their substitute powder doesn't always perform. Consistent velocity is accuracy. If they are lying about 7prc, what else are they willing to lie about?
Ron - thanks for getting Seth to attempt to explain the “discrepancies” in 7 PRC velocities. Starting out with “oh yeah the new chronographs are great…” I smell something coming and it ain’t bacon! 🥓
Hornady has damaged its public image. Many of us have not forgotten the jab mandate controversy. If they can’t get the powder needed to achieve “box velocities” then re-print the boxes and acknowledge the problem ahead of time. Attempting to explain it away with “your chamber/barrel is to blame” just makes it worse.
I thought the 7 PRC sounded like an ideal cartridge when it first came out. I was a loyal Hornady customer, owning 2 of their reloading presses and having shot a lot of their bullets. At this point, I want nothing more to do with Hornady. 280 Ackley Improved will get me more than close enough without a magnum primer or a magnum bolt face.
That "new chronographs are great" comment rubbed me the wrong way too. I hand load so I often use one but they got balls to tell someone that just scraped together enough for a budget rifle build that he will have to spend as much or more than he did on the firearm or optic just because he cant trust the manufacturers labeling. Buy Barnes.
Oh boy hornadv is really gonna miss you. Go eat another oatmeal cookie nobody cares
@@foonus406 also, my 20-year old CED is/was a PITA to set up but when done correctly, it worked just fine until I shot the sunscreens (again).
They totally thought that they would get away with not being honest about box velocities, the chronograph remark backs that up in my opinion. It's sleazy marketing at best and shows they don't think much of the average shooter's intelligence.
I have been seeing complaints about Hornady ammunition on UA-cam for years now. Almost invariably the complaint is about inconsistency, with a lot of cartridge weight tables and chronoscope work agreeing with the complaints. I have never heard a response from Hornady !
I've said this from the beginning... when the Precision Hunter ammo matches the max velocity published in the books there is something fishy. That ammo is usually called Superformance. Hornady needed to show that their new cartridge would easily outperform the 7mm Rem mag and 6.8 Western. So Hornady used a powder that is unobtainiam (RL-26) to show off this cartridge. Now that they can't get the powder... turns out the 6.8 Western is outperforming it lol.
Hornady needs to update the box velocity. Update it to 2850 FPS, once RL-26 becomes more available start a new line of ammo in 7mm PRC that is called Superformance that gets you that 3000 FPS.
Ive always thought the same here. They had to be using high qual powder to be at that fps claim, the high end of it in the book, and in that case would fall into the super performance line. Ill agree thet need to republish velocities with the current powder they are loading with. That goes for any caliber they are doin, or anyone elsw has had to sub out powders with for that matter. Just be honest is all. I bought early ammo and its up to snuff, but have friends with newer lots that are all down in fps.
Thank you that’s very interesting to get to the bottom of the truth as to why this is happening because of different powers. Use Federal ammo instead. But I think get a 300 PRC “instead of” a 7 PRC.
So what's up with the RL26? I've been trying to get some for over a year now with no success.
@@patrioticguy1791 Unfortunately RL26 has been one of the most difficult powders to buy for years now. But honestly most of the Alliant powders are out of stock most of the time, not just RL26, and because of this I have abandoned them for other brands like VVN500 series, Retumbo (now that it can be found again) Ramshot Magnum, Accurate Magpro, and others. For whatever reason, Alliant just hasn't made their products available to the handloading market with any regularity. All you can do is sign up to be notified when their products are in stock at as many different suppliers as you can find - and act QUICK when you get the notification!
@@patrioticguy1791 It sells out very quickly when it actually is in stock (and that's not often at all). Federal, I'm sure, has no problem getting it because they are affiliated with Alliant through the same company.
When the 6.8 Western got released Hornady simply said they will not be manufacturing ammunition for that caliber because they were in the process of developing the 7 PRC. They saw the 6.8 Western as a direct competition to their 7 PRC, but it was under performing so they falsely advertise its performance to make it appear to be better than the 6.8 Western.
hornady is a POOP woke company
Nope……
Are you not paying attention? They can’t get the powder right now that they were achieving those numbers with. Federal is accomplishing advertised numbers with their ammo. Try to keep up
No matter how you butter it, it is still false advertising. Hornady tried to pull the wool over everyone's eyes. But thanks to the advancements in chronograph technology, and the community involvement on the internet, everyone is aware of it. They hoped no one would notice.
Makes you wonder how many other ammo manufacturers are doing it
@@MilwaukeeDillPicklesall of them and none of them, as he explained the tree barrels meet very specific standards and they use the velocity they get. That’s what they post on the box because under the right conditions it can be done. Don’t meet those conditions with your rifle, elevation, and weather and you won’t get the same result. This isn’t a new phenomenon.
@@CalebDeBoer I was implying exactly that hoping the commenter I replied to would come to that same realization and realize it’s not just Hornady
@@MilwaukeeDillPickles honest I think some of these people just want to be mad, I mean no one has been getting posted velocities for probably as long as ammo has been made, but now when there’s ammo that used to get it and doesn’t they’re in a uproar. It’s not unfounded, but they won’t listen so I hear you.
This is why I am boycotting Hornady. I hate liars
Yes it is pulling the wool over peoples eyes because when the high-performance powder is not available anymore and instead they use a different kind of powder with slower less performance causing the FPS (Feet Per Second) to reduce (go down). Then they should have instantly “RE-PRINTED and REVISED” (changed) this new “reduced” FPS data on the website and on boxes of ammo accordingly without any delay, and “not” left the FPS numbers inflated.
Hornady should have been upfront and told the truth about changes they made. It would lead you to believe that they didn’t and left the numbers inflated to not be outdone by the 6.8 Western at least on paper.
your exactly correct !
I think this is exactly the sticking point for a lot of people. Factory ammo underperforming isn't all that strange. But hornady has admitted that they knew they were shipping ammo that didn't meet the advertised spec because of a (possibly legitimate) decision they made. Slapping a sticker on the boxes is not an impossible thing.
So then a consumer has to wonder why they (seemingly) hoped no one would notice by the time they got the right powders again. (Those dang consumer chronographs!) Coupled up with the all-but-public fact that hornady is hoping that the 6.8 western goes away, and it starts to look like hornady was trying to paper over the fact that their whiz bang cartridge isn't as superior to the western as their marketing suggests.
They purposefully inflated the number to convince people to get a 7prc when a 6.8 western would give them exactly what they want (and in a short action)
@@Marcus-jg4jb where you get it wrong is pinning this on the 7 prc unlike the western there are several other manufacturers achieving the published velocities.
@@OutsidetheEchochamber I'm not sure I understand what you mean. 7prc is the cartridge where hornady has admitted to shipping ammo that isn't meeting their printed velocities.
😂 Seth is close to a heart attack in that video. He basically starts out by blaming new tech that they even got caught, hilarious.
In god we trust, all other bring data. And in the case of Hornady don’t even believe what they bring you.
Ron never asked the hard question of why the cover up. He was listening to the wrong end of that horse.
Most Hornady ammunition I’ve tried is not up to the printed fps on the label in any caliber..
The 30-06 superformace out of a rem 700 with 24 inch barrel was 40-60 under the printed box claim.
I'm in the process of a new hunting rifle build, and I was on the fence between the 7PRC and 6/8 Western. This just tipped the scales.. Going with the 6.8 Western - I get it the ammo is not available, but I reload, so that is not a factor, brass might be, but box ammo isn't.
Great choice!! Seekens has a terrific rifle in 6.8 Western.
Also, for ammo, one ordered from Pendleton Ammunition and Choice ammunition. Choice is getting low on their 6.8 Western, but they just emailed me that they’ll be receiving brass here shortly.
You’ll Love the Western
It just make sense. Even more so since my go to always rifle is one of my 270Win’s thanks for all the info!
They are ripping people off Ron. If I publish somthing and sell somthing else its fraud is it not?
And its 60 bucks to figure out youve been had!
Definitely a winnable law suit
@@skeegets2
More than that when you consider the cost of the rifle.
I agree about shot distance, at long range the bullet takes time to get to it's target. Even with a perfect drop compensation and perfect wind call the animal has enough time to do almost anything from complete miss to a leg shot. Just too much chance to shoot it's nose off and it can't be shot again but will certainly die horribly. Keep your shots as close as you think they can't possibly be accidentally dodged.
Great info Ron.
As usual you do a fantastic job helping us out!!!
I have a 7 PRC with a 26 inch Shilen barrel
Velocity for me with the Hornady 180 Eld-M avg 2880 fps with the newer boxes of ammo
Hornady 175 Eld-X was very similar
Federal 175 Eld-X avg 3020 fps
All 3 shot moa or better for me
I have shot the 180's out to 1 mile and they performed quite well for factory ammo at that distance
I really enjoy my 7 PRC regardless of Hornady's failure to give us shooters what they say they are
Keep up the good work Ron!!!
Thanks for this break down Ron. I am not in the market for a 7PRC but this shed some light that many of us don't realize and that is the issue with powder. Applying this across the ammunition spectrum really helps. Fortunately I have a small supply of various powders from pre Ukraine time.
The "mystery powder" is the competitions (Winchester) Staball HD. I'm surprised how many times Seth mentioned temperature stability, because it has been tested and proven quite a few times that the Staball lineup of powders is not at the same level of temperature insensitivity as any of the Hogdon extreme powder lineup it's being substituted for.
It is not. But it is pretty good however and will meter much better if you use a powder measure. Also in theory it should extend your barrel life because supposedly the staball powders don’t generate as much heat.. supposedly lol.
@TheCodyO I'm not sure about the heat but I'll tell ya what I found to work well for me. The Vihtavuori
560 powder put 5 shots in a half MOA group with a 1.63ES and SD of 0.85.. using hornadys own spent brass and their 175 ELD-X after tuning seating depth.. the chronograph showed 1840. Another thing I noticed was when I went to clean the barrel after the seating depth testing, there was considerably less carbon fouling and carbon ring than the box offerings with the Staball HD.
@@foonus406 what your telling me hear is you own a chronograph that measures speed to a hundredth of a foot per second and that your reloads were 1000 fps slow.. I’m glad you feel you have success but vet your numbers a little.
@TheCodyO labradar averages the 5 shots for those numbers. That's what it showed. More than happy to sacrifice 100 fps for something that gives a consistent SD. Your most consistent node is rarely your fastest but if you want to cut down the life of your barrel by all means go ahead and send em hot.
Jack O'Connor is still right. All you need is a 270 130 grain for deer, and antelope ---and 150 grain for elk and moose --- end of discussion with new fancy cartridges 😮
And 150 grain for elk and moose
Or the 30/06 with 180 grain for everything.
Or a 6.8 Western for the same thing, but can reach out a lot further and with less wind drift.
My Setup last fall in Canada,
Browning X-Bolt Speed 7PRC,
24" Barrel
AVR. 2831 fps with ELD-X
6 degrees Celsius @ ~ Sea level
using a Garmin Xero C1 Pro
Fantastic info--Thanks Ron and Seth!!
A great interview thanks Ron. You asked some excellent questions.
Hornady definitely have dropped the ball on some things. I feel fortunate that I have not fired any Hornady ammo and have only fired reloads.
The 7PRC is really nice but honestly I prefer a 300 PRC. Yes the 7MM is a flatter shooting cartridge but not by much and the 300 is bring more energy and a larger frontal diameter for terminal performance
I got the 300 before the 7 was announced. No regrets, just puts a smile on my face.
@@chadperry4021 I agree I’ve had nothing but success with my 300 PRC I’m slinging a 208 Barnes at 3075
@@EasternMountainHunters that is comfortably 175 fps more than the 300 win mag will do. Nice, I’m just shooting factory 225 eldm at 2836 for a fun target round.
@@chadperry4021 yea nothing wrong with the factory stuff but once I started handloading for the 300 PRC it really came to life. You can push those 212 eldx pretty fast also. I haven’t hit pressure signs with any of my brass yet. Just found a good node and plenty of speed in recommended charge weights.
I recall that Article on the 29 BS had forgot about it.. Thanks for the reminder.
If not already confer with the orginal Rifle Looney on the 7x57 of yours. I have tried some of his thoughts in print on it n those have Well They worked. Might help you as well.
The Subject matter starts near 30:00
👍
I was here for everything but that.
Holy crap 30 minutes in the actual meat of the matter starts? Wow.
True, but the first 23mins or so before thay isn't bad.
I’m generally a Hornady fan, but this is a bad look. If they had to make such a large shift temporarily, it should’ve been communicated. They preach accuracy, but likely have consumers plugging in data to a ballistics calculator that’s 200fps off. So now you’re expected to buy a chronograph and test every box because the velocity may shift back and forth at some point? They tried to hide it under the rug, and only opened up after a wave of complaints.
Another note, this isn’t the only cartridge that uses RL26. Now I’m wondering how accurate the velocity is on my 300wm ELDX.
Ron, I have a 7PRC Browning Speed LR XBolt with a 26 inch barrel and with a Hornady 175 grain ELD-X bullet factory load, I get a 3 shot average of 2901 fps. The highest fps was 2919 logged in a box of ammo.
great pods really love this topic published velocity and what you get from the caliber in 20,22,24,26 in. barrels. Manufactures need to list velocities in all these lenghts people buying rifles are not shocked at the lack of performance .Not everyone can drive 15 mins and set up and start shooting ,and not everyone has need for a cono they have to TRUST the info on the box break that trust and you can lose people for life not to mention what they have to say about the company all the bad advertisement you want .Ron people really take what you have to say for a more realistic discription of a product. Keep up the pods they really are enjoyable .
Hey Professor Spomer, how's it going? Lol Keep up the great work I enjoy the history lessons. For the viewers who want a small light weight hunting rifle I recommend the Q Fix in 8.6 blackout with a 12 inch barrel 1:3 twist rate. It includes a folding stock, 45 degree bolt throw, detachable box magazine, cherry bomb muzzle break which accommodates a suppressor, a piactiny top rail, amby safety and literally the best trigger ever made. Shooting sub or supersonic .338 projectiles will give you much more terminal velocity than muzzle velocity. I love the 7 prc for prs long range steel plate shooting so I'm not knocking it just informing you and your viewers that there's another option. The 8.6 uses a 6.5 CM case shortened and knocked out to .338. All copper bullets ranging from 185-225 supers and to 250-300 maybe 350 grains for subs is plenty of knock down power for cape Buffalo in South Africa. A bare rifle is about 6lbs. Add a LHT Vortex scope for example at roughly 25 grams and your light and nimble. So check out the fix in 8.6 by Q and buy once cry once lol
Say hello to Kovey, she's awesome. Keep em straight and inside of 300 yes. Till next time...royalties? Lol
Take care
Nick
180 grain Hornady ELD-M factory ammo ran 2785 fps vs 2975 fps published velocity out of my 24” rifle. I emailed Hornady and they quickly and honestly replied, but aren’t honest enough to change the label. They also recommended chronographing 5 - 10 rounds per lot to get my average velocity. So with every different lot of ammo, I have to burn 5-10 rounds because Hornady’s published velocity can’t be trusted. How hard is it to have a box label for each type of powder they use in the 7PRC? Do better Hornady!
Great interview Ron! They spilled the beans! The velocity is very suspect. My 270, 30-06, 300HH, and 300 Weatherby don’t make excuses. 😢
Bought a few 7 REM mags in the last year and I’m glad I did.
the 7 prc was redlined from the get go, it's great to get a certain velocity with A powder. for example, the 200 gr eldx win mag gets velocity 2200 fps lower than what it can be reloaded too. you can get the 300 win man velocities hornady gets without max loads out of 30 powders. they won't redline the 300 wm or the 7 rem mag because it won't make their prc's a must buy!
Haha what? Uh no. Maybe from a factory ammo standpoint but not if you roll your own
The 175 eldx is a bit too much for a standard twist 7mm rem mag. If you compare the 7mm rem mag shooting the Hornady 162 eldx precision hunter ammo at 2975 fps against the 7 PRC shooting the 175 eldx at 2800, the energy from 500-1000 yards is almost identical. These numbers are using Hornady's ballistic calculator at 5000 ft elevation, 40 degrees temp. At those velocities, the 7mm rem mag will maintain 1500 ft/lbs out to about 800 yards. Exactly the same for the 7 PRC. For deer, the 7mm rem mag holds 1199 ft/lbs of energy at 1000 yards, while the 7 PRC has 1226 ft/lbs of energy at 1000. The 7mm rem mag also shoots flatter at these velocities. At 500 yards, the 7 mag drops 41.4 inches while the 7 PRC drops 46.8. At 1000 yards the 7 mag drops 241 inches while the 7 PRC drops 266.7. You really lose the advantage of the super high BC 175 eldx at 2800 fps. Its almost a little overweight and you sacrifice trajectory. But I wonder if the precision hunter ammo for the 7mm rem mag has been replaced with slower powder as well. Probably can't trust the velocity on that box either.
My Weatherby ammo is more expensive but it actually gets the promised performance.
Same. And for the price we pay......it better!
Thanks for bringing this topic up but I think you failed to ask the important/hard questions. If they are aware of the reduced velocity, then why not revise that on the newer boxes of ammunition? Rather than knowingly overstating it. Secondly, there have been reputable tests showing reduced velocity from the newer ammunition from the exact same rifle/chamber. So the explanation of the chamber specs/tolerances is irrelevant when the issue is the reduced velocity of their ammunition.
My old BDL 7mm Remington magnum does achieve the velocities that are listed when I handload em myself, but not before. Factory ammunition companies have blown sunshine at us since some folks believe it, remember the velocities that the 264 winchester magnum used to have CLAIMED TO ACHIEVE?
I have a Rem 700 Sendero in the. 264 Win Mag.....I love that cal. it's super accurate, and it's a conversation piece too. Some old things shouldn't die off.
Hornady bringing another cartridge to market that they cannot keep up with demand or performance, i am not surprised.
Ron Nitrocellulose is used in Covid tests. Caused a good strain on nitro supplies! Also Vista Outdoors has the powder & primer market cornered?!?! Ergo I’m a well stocked hand loader!
Hey Ron, you can use noise canceling ear buds while hunting or shooting like axil and there are other brands. They work well and do a good job at protecting your ears even with muzzle brakes.
Ron, look at the testing performed in Little Crow Gunworks testing. Using the same powders and bullets the 7mm PRC was SLOWER than the 7mm Mag. Everyone has fallen for the marketing on the 7PRC!
Hey, Ron Maine North Woods Hunter here. I Love your show and listen to them all the time. I am sure that a lot of people are in the same boat as I so I will say this. I do not own a chronograph so I rely on what ballistics are either on the box or what is advertised for the specific cartridge that I use for hunting. We as hunters rely on these ballistics to sight in our rifles that way we can also pay attention to the ballistics at longer ranges. No hunter that I know wants to injure or wound an animal. We are hunters and we are humane. Why does Hornady not change the ballistics on the box to match the new powder? Even if it is just 50 FPS slower that will make a difference down range eventually. I just do not want to be off on my shot because the advertised ballistics is off. I have a 7mm Rem Mag in a Christensen Arms Mesa LR. I am thinking on trading it in for the Waypoint 20/20 or the Bergara B14 squared crest. The waypoint advertises a 24" Barrel and the Bergara has a 22" How much velocity difference will there be between the two?
I get the change in powder, Watching this I got an infomercial on excuses and BS from a company trying to bury the 6.8 Western, this guy is absolutely an excuse machine for a cartridge that doesn't live up to the hype
The problem is, like almost everything else, we aren't making it ourselves! We certainly have the resources, so we need to stop counting on other countries, to manufacture the resources we use. It's a really dumb practice, when we've got no control over production, and then get held hostage on materials we use!
People aren’t going to like this, but I’ve seen similar results on the 7mm PRC and I’ve seen the opposite on my 6.8 Western. My 20” 6.8 Western is shooting 162gr at 3075 fps. Both my Garmin and neighbors magneto speed were showing within 2 fps. I’ll keep the 6.8 Western over the 7mm PRC.
Ron, the gentleman wondering about the 308 or 30-06 also wanted something without too much recoil. For what he wants the 6.5 PRC would work quite well
All cartrige manufacturers say that they hit higher velocity than what you get but you have to look at what test barrel they use it makes a difference on velocity.
The gentleman Zack you speak to around 5:00 ... have him checkout 6.5cm in the Howa Ultralite! 4Lbs 7oz before scope! Watched my 16yo son literally hit the bullseye directly-centered.... twice! Dunno if it'd be ok for Elk, but WOW is it light! Got it for my son, so it'd be light for him to carry. But Daddy is seriously considering getting a 2nd one to be for Daddy! Feels very similar to .308 Win w 130gr loadings. In terms of recoil.
I think people want an apology from Hornady but I don't think we will get one.
how about a refund for the unused ammo that does not for fill the performance promise , and rebait for the substandard stuff their pushing in future sales !
Hey Ron! how about doing a show on the Remington RUM cartridges, a few years back I picked up a 338 rum at auction with plans to re barrel in a smaller size, I did a few load work ups on it from 180-300gr with velocities ranging from 3672 to 2640, totally impressed with cartridges,not the most accurate round but for a hunting rifle it does the job, I’m re-barreling in the same cartridge but with a lighter barrel
Ron, reference the shorter rifle, aside from recoil, the Savage 110 in 375 Ruger with 20" barrel (and its threaded) would really fit the bill. Mine is very handy and that cartridge with H4350 powder does well with that barrel length.
Ok.... Hornady changes the formula and that changes the velocity. Great, I would rather have something than nothing, but put change the accurate velocity on the box and let us know. I think most consumers can accept this but can't accept being lied to.
Ok love the information, but why not change the numbers on the box then? If you are going to get a leupold custom turret cut for this particular ammo, when and if it changes that is going to effect your turret that you had made. So frustrating!! I love my fierce twisted in 7prc, and love my leupld scope thing i might not have a turret made and just use the new stickers that backfire showed on his channel. So much to think about. I truly want a turret but no i'm second guessing getting one made. UGH!!!
Everything Seth's says is fine, but Hornaday should put a sticker on the box!
Honestly is always the best policy!!!!!!
I am not a PRC fan nor any of the newer calibers for that fact except for the 6.5 Creedmoor this caliber I do like. I have lots of old calibers and love them all
Why wouldn't Hornady come out with this onfo from the start???? This mistake has caused a few people that I know, not to buy a rifle in this cartridge.
Wow . Don’t have one but it’s good info! Thanks Mr Ron!
I guess I'm old, 30-06 in general is the one I would get in a store bought rifle. its been used for 1000 yard matches at Camp Perry, short distance deer long distance mule deer on the shady side if a hill. I you get a custom then its time to pick your barrel profile length twist rate and direction of twist for bullet weight, quality of the slug, ( bullet yawn) then you have to look at drift not from wind but twist.
Big box 06 looks good 🙃
Can't comment on 7PRC, but i did receive a box of Hornady Frontier 68GR .223 Rem with 4 of the 20 rds defective. The bullets were pushed all the way into the casings so that only the very tip was even visible. No clue how that gets past qc, but i contacted both Hornady and the retailer about it. Guess who responded offering to make it right?
With new chassis rifle systems it’s entirely feasible to have one lighter weight stock for hunting and a heavier bench rest style stock for distance shooting and with the advanced QD style optics mounts you could use two different optics packages different roles
Out west I will stick with my old 25-06 and my 30-06
I understand why Hornady did what they did. Everything he said makes sense. What doesn't make sense is, why they won't change the velocity on the box, even if it's not permanent. While they're running the powder that they're running now, the box posted velocities should be adjusted. What do I know though? I'm just a dumb hillbilly.
My only gripe with what Seth put out is that they should put a proper velocity on the box with the current powder of that lot. That would do a lot to clear the air.
What's fishy is how many people including myself are up at 3:00 a.m. watching this video.
2:57am
To your viewer Zach, some antelope shots out here can be 400+ yards so keep that in mind. There are open ranges that are really really long compared to East coast hunting. Good luck on your hunt!
Some take aways:
1) 7 PRC is a 7mm Rem Mag optimized for todays high BC bullets. It's not supposed to be a night and day difference.
2) If you're a precision shooter and want consistent ammo, reload. Manufacturers will change powders and not disclose it.
3) 7 PRC fan boys have been told time and time again, it's not all that special. A 7mm Rem Mag with a long throat achieves the same performance as the 7 PRC.
4) Powder availability is going to spotty due to the supply and demand of nitrocellulose, along with the fact that the vast majority of reloading powder is imported and not made domestically.
fair and accurate assessment.
Pretty much right, but you usually need a longer-than-SAAMI action/magazine, a faster twist barrel and a pressure above the SAAMI max of 61,000psi (interestingly, this video told us that Hornady loads to 59,000). The throating gets complicated with the 7 Rem Mag since it has a good design to begin with. You need to know the max COAL allowed by your magazine/action as well as which bullets you intend to use. You might run out of magazine length before needing to throat deeper. For example, even on a SAAMI-throated 7RM, a cartridge loaded with the popular Berger 180 hybrid touching the lands is over 3.5" long. That is too long if you have a Tikka T3 but fine for some other actions.
Until recently, most 7mm hunting bullets were designed around the SAAMI 7RM and its ogive limitations. Heavier or longer bullets still used the same moderate ogive. Now that higher BCs are popular, ogives are getting longer and the bullets can be longer for the same weight. Since the rifling just touches the shank, the same old freebore and throat allow a longer COAL with longer ogived bullets. FWIW, that is why the case of the 7 PRC is 0.22" shorter and its freebore ends 0.114" before that of the Rem Mag: to allow for longer-ogived bullets and still fit into a 3.34" standard action.
@jfess1911 your reply is a lot and veers a bit into hype.
I think we agree that the 7 PRC achieves what used to at least take a semi-custom to custom 7mm Rem Mag to do in regards to actually getting the high BC shooting accurately in them (some actions they'd fit but you still required a fast twist barrel and a custom reamer).
Where we disagree a bit is the issue over SAAMI pressures. Buying ammo off the shelf, you see the published velocities and it makes people think there's something truly special about the cartridge vs. the 7mm Rem Mag. Reloaders look at load data with powders we have available and see that these two cartridges load with the same powders run neck and neck in the velocity department. The bind Hornady is finding themselves in is they're not always able to get the exclusive powder they want that's engineered to the specifications they need to achieve that velocity. When they're forced to use the same powders as us mere mortals, the 7mm PRC goes back to being a 7mm Rem Mag. Similarly, if you had a custom 7mm Rem Mag with a powder optimized specifically for the bullet weights were talking about, you would see a noticeable up tick in velocity while maintaining the same pressures. That's not a particularly new trick of ammunition manufacturers.
You can go into the weeds about the tiniest details of the 7 PRC, but with bullet headed down range, it's still just providing what used to take a semi custom 7mm Rem Mag to accomplish. It provides what used to be semi custom performance, in off the rack rifles.
@@theleo91386 I agree that a semi-custom Rem Mag can do what the PRC can. TBH, I was surprised that the 7mm PRC took off because the Rem Mag is so good to start off with. even with factory ammo.
I just wanted to point out that faster twist and a longer action, things you did not mention in your post, are critical to boost the Rem Mag's performance.
I brought up the throating issue because I have been talking to someone whose custom 7 RSAUM was throated too long for his action (M70, short action). He would have been better off with the SAAMI throat. There are times when just lengthening the throat is a bad idea.
I agree with: " It provides what used to be semi custom performance, in off the rack rifles." There is a lot of factory 7 Rem Mag ammo sold, so clearly a lot of people don't tune ammo for their rifles. There is obviously a market for a factory version of what had previously required a semi-custom rifle and hand-loaded ammo.
In the case of the 7 PRC, Hornady was using off-the-shelf propellants, just ones made in Europe. This is what bit them. Notice that the Hornady guy specified they were single-base. Their custom propellants have been exclusively double base from St. Marks Powders in Florida.
Bullseye 🎯
The SAAMI version of the 6.5-284 is 3.228" long, so it is not a short action cartridge. It CAN be loaded short, but it is designed to take advantage of long, high BC bullets which is why the max OAL is over 3.2".
What seth said is exactly what i heard the other about the powder problem,hay Ron can you ask seth where my 220 swift case is at been waiting for a response when Hornady shorted me.
I've got two knives of Alaska knives. I bought them as a set I have the cub bear and muskrat combo. I love the muskrat for skinning but the cub bear isn't that great for caping. It has a thicker blade on it that's very difficult to get and keep sharp.
My suppressor makes a different group pattern around 2" at 100 yds. I shots my groups in different positions, bullet weights and wind conditions to see what the bullet will do under all conditions.
7PRC are nice when it comes to a heavier grain bullets but with a medium weight bullet there is not much difference.
I have been building a collection of rifles for the purpose of training my grandkids. I have been considering several calibers for the longest range. But needed something that would be in a manageable recoil for young teenagers. The .277 and .284 calibers seemed to be in the sweet spot. I liked the new higher BC bullets, since no lead rules take away some of the efficiency of a bullet.
With this controversy over the 7 PRC. I have settled on the 6.8 Western, and started buying ammo. Since the ammo shortage, I buy a dozen boxes, in a variety of bullets. Before I buy the rifle in any caliber.
Run does longer barrel increased velocity? Equal increase in chamber pressure.
Hornady just needs to update the velocities on the boxes.
Maybe the soon to be NATION OF TEXAS can start opening new ammo factories as well as reloading sources of supplies.
Keep in mind a supressor can change the point of impact on a rifle per bullet weight.....so make sure to sight in on the cartridge one will use for hunting.
I reload 30-06 spr. 270 win and 6.5 PRC thankfully I have an 8 lb jug of each for my optimized loads. H4350 for 270 and 30-06 some loads, H1000 for 6.5 PRC. I use Varget for my M1 Garand 30-06.
If Hornady cant make our ammo fast like before- just write this on ammo box.
I already knew this! I achieve 3,000 fps but i hand load and dont have deal with different lot numbers on factory ammo because i dont shoot it! Awesome video ron!
Elk used to live in the Ozarks to! But I understand people are moving to mountain west for many reasons besides elk hunting.
Excellent content.
To maybe nearly satisfy people on this, no ammo manufacturer would be able to publish a specific exact speed. They'd have to publish a range and it sounds like in this case the 7prc would have 3000 as the max. They'd have to test a number of powders that fit the criteria and print the high end of the all the powders they found & use. Then the boxes would say something like expected muzzle velocity is 2800-3000. Realistically, I can't see the feasibility of printing thousands of stickers to put over the printed velocities with every change in variability and then track which boxes we start & stop putting the stickers on, only to say this powder we had to change to will produce say 50fps less than the last one. That's a bit ridiculous to expect IMHO.
Currently we mostly have to buy hornady if you're going to shoot 7prc from the box, because hornady's the only one that can make them; however, after you get those initial cases, now to can switch to whatever bullet & powder combo you can get reloader info on.
My 7 prc shooting hornady hunter bullets has been consistently shooting literally 1/4 to 1/2" groups center to center. With those results, i may not actually switch my bullet use on them over to my reliable barnes ttsx unless the hunter boxed dont do their job on impact with an amimal as the ttsx does. But as far as accuracy. The 7prc is VERY MUCH meeting and exceeding my expectations, even if they arent exactly hitting the 3000 mark.
I have heard that a 6.5 PRC in a 20 inch barrel is no faster than a 6.5 Creedmore in a 24 inch barrel. That being said if you’re looking for that great all around caliber for North American big game elk, deer, moose, antelope the 7/08 is probably a better choice.
This is why I say that if you want a fair comparison, do a video between the 280AI vs 7PRC.
Thanks, Ron, keep it up!
In New Zealand we have over barrel suppressors that are over barrel 6” and only 2” past barrel!
What is yiur opinion on 6,5x47 Lapua? To me it seems to be a really good small to mid size game cartridge. Especially for roedeer
So Hornady says that the difference between our published velocities are correct and everyone has sub par equipment and does not reflect our testing.
Exactly what I got out of this! I know Ron that you have friends there at Hornady and don’t want to ruffle feathers but that was a fluff piece. Always enjoy your videos. But having a Hornady Rep there to blame everything from powders to people’s equipment was BS. They need to slap a label on ammo for now until things change and they can get the powder they originally loaded with. For them not to do this is crazy and they should be called out for it. I truly believe they have stuck with the piss poor excuse to try to save the cartridge and prop it up against the 6.8 Western which performs better at this point. Hornady needed to stop the deception earlier and just come clean, put it out there and put it on their packaging.
Seth, there is a third option.
1. Make that call
2. Don't make ammunition
3. Make that call and tell everyone