Just wanna say, Trent is the man. His debate against James White on eternal security put me over the fence for Catholicism. I was confirmed this past easter.
I think I'm a year behind you. Last May, I was determined to debunk Catholics online after the Stuckey/Farmer debate but soonafter saw the Eternal Security debate which caused me to seriously second guess my beliefs on salvation. I'm in RCIA set for this Easter!
@sivad1025 That's so awesome brother.... I can truly say I've never felt more at home. I know everyone says that and something like it but I feel a genuine love for everyone I've met so far at my parish. I'm so excited for mass tomorrow, i have to say my favorite part is absolution after confession and penance. The state of Grace for me is something i cant get enough of. Of course im still new and have to go to confession every week but the sacrament is there. My priest is a total scholar, he's on that William albrecht level with the fathers. I hope you have just as much fulfillment as I do. God bless you brother!
@@timboslice980 I'm so excited for confession. It's so shocking to me that Protestants dropped that tradition. Don't know if you've ever seen Trent's "The Not-so-simple Protestant plan for Salvation," but that was another monumental video for me. His point about how Catholics have physical assurance of their forgiveness while logically-consistent Protestants live in fear of having been never saved resonated with me. If you don't mind me asking, if the Eternal Security debate came at the end for you, what made you consider the Catholic church in the first place?
@sivad1025 Long story and I get scoffed at by every protestant who hears it but I'll tell you. I was an anti catholic calvinist... I watched James white, his buddy Jeff Durbin, doug Wilson, John macarthur, John piper, rc Sproul, and John Samson. I read commentaries by Calvin and luther, celebrated reformation day in October by watching that Luther movie every year. Problem was my life was drowning in sin. My wife was getting wild, I was getting wild, my 3 year old was saying omg. I just felt like if I was elect, sins couldn't really seperate me. I started to question if I was elect at all.... then something happened where my wife and I almost got a divorce. I prayed to God to give me a clue, show me where I had gone wrong. That night I had a dream of a Catholic priest and I saw the entire history of the church starting with the Catholics and splintering off after half the church's lifespan then splintering into hundreds and then thousands of smaller and more distant groups. The visual for me was almost like a snowball made of people.... I could see their hands and faces but they were all massed together. People of every race. It started out small then grew and grew to a large snowball by the end it was still the biggest, most prominent, and obviously original snowball. Then I saw the obviously catholic priest again and he was smiling. I woke up and thought I had lost my mind or I had seen one too many exorcist movies but I felt compelled to study the catholic church if for any reason to stop these crazy thoughts I was having. I never stopped studying the church since that day. Turns out 90% of what the protestants told me about the church wasn't true and its super easy to disprove. I thought only the true church would be this big, this visible, this old, this charitable, this right on theology, and then I started looking into the miracles. The shroud of turin, the tilma of guadaloupe, kibeho, Akita, lourdes, and the blood of st januarius. I didn't know a single catholic. I didn't know any apologists, the youtube algorithm had zero catholic material, I mean at that point I'd be a total moron not to join the church. How about you friend?
@@timboslice980 I love the story. Sounds like a lot of conversion stories from ex-Muslim Christians. For me, a lot of things happened all at once. But notably, the George Farmer/Allie Beth Stuckey debate created a lot of debate in a Matt Walsh fans Facebook group (very niche, I know). I wasn't at all convinced by the Catholic arguments, but I wanted to more definitively debunk them on the papal infallibility and "works-based salvation" so I watched James White vs. Patrick Madrid on Sola Scriptura and James White vs. Trent Horn on Eternal Security. Like you, I watched White and Deff Durbin's channel, but they both rubbed me the wrong way, particularly with how they treated David Wood (long story behind that lol). James White is really a walking stereotype of the stodgy, self-righteous Calvinist who pretends that he's really humble because he believes in "faith alone." Anyway, I thought White was wiped in both debates which led me to binging Trent's and Matt Fradd's videos. I'm still not 100% convinced on everything, but the Catholic doctrine on salvation is so much more robust and coherent with scripture. I totally agree that the Calvinist system leads to constant anxiety over whether we were ever saved to begin with. They talk out both sides of their mouths by saying we shouldn't be scared of salvation because God will forgive all sins by those in the elect to whom he offers grace... but that doesn't fix the issue of security, it only kicks the can down the road and makes us question initial salvation. It's a complete disaster that does not at all comport with James' and Hebrews' teachings on salvation.
That whole interaction about bestiality was so surreal. I couldn’t believe that Destiny tried to say that he can’t understand why bestiality is worse than killing an animal for food because he isn’t religious. The Trent rightfully shoots back “it’s not because you aren’t religious. It’s because you’re INSANE! You’re an insane person!” 😂 what a self own by Destiny. He basically claimed “if I were religious then I could understand why bestiality is wrong.” Yeah buddy that’s the point. Even though you don’t need religion to have the ick factor for bestiality.
As a Liberal myself. It was weird to hear them say that. Also not sure why they didn’t bring up many deontological philosophers that find it wrong but don’t cite their work to religion
@@CromulentEmbiggeningWhy would the immorality of an industry make eating meat immoral? For instance, porn is immoral but it doesn't mean sex itself is so.
I think Lila and Trent should prep together for some time before entering the arena. They looked more like a team compared to Destiny and Jazmen, but at certain time, Lila and Trent failed to harmonize their arguments to make their case stronger.
Yes. I felt like Lila especially was undermining some important points. I also think it's good to have both sexes represented for topics like this, but Lila really underplayed all the ways young men are affected by porn. She focused too much on how women are abused where I think the data is in fact sketchy. It's a much easier argument to make that men have had their expectations for sex completely twisted from a young age and stops both sexes from engaging in meaningful relationships
I'm a pagan and love how much Catholics oppose abortion, euthanasia, and the sex trade. This was a good debate and both Lila and Trent did very well. Lila acted like a scholar and Trent was more like a pitbull. I love that dynamic!
The earliest scripture used to have more of a shared living with Pagans, and I've heard some arguments say the ancient Pagans were at least respectable compared to what's in this modern world. Appreciate the unity and God bless 🙏🏾
@@dontewithdragons I don't know anything about early scripture but that's very interesting. My whole tribe are pagans and it's how I was raised. I'm alarmed at some of the global trends have found that Christians generally but Catholics specifically can be a good ally in fighting for the value of women and human life.
@brycepardoe658 There was a reference to pagans being directly spared in the Bible after some sort of repentance for something. I'm not too well versed on it, But we can say there were pagans that had better reputations than pharisees. Despite disagreeing, It is a beautiful thing to appreciate the natural and have a spiritual root. There are catholics who are spiritual and there are also orthodox such as east orthodoxy, that is spiritual. I see this is somebody who almost became buddhist a while back. Personally I'm always going to have a soft spot for those related to that 😅
When you have Trent on your debate team, its like having Micheal Jordan on your team, Trent is one of the best debaters I have seen, always ready, always prepared for every question. Destiny is a smart guy, and quick thinker himself, but just on the wrong side.
Yeah, maybe MJ as a decrepit old drunk. Or maybe a petulant child. Not many can pull off his patented blend of deliberate obtuseness and condescension.
Thank you both for another amazing debate on the whatever podcast! Please continue to go back as you are both breaking through to a wider audience of which is highly relevant and influential when it comes to our culture today. You're reaching people who would otherwise never be exposed to your platforms or arguments so thank you! You both are the voices that we need to be expressed more of in popular culture!
Trent and Lila you guys did great on Whatever!! I always look forward to when you guys go on that show!! We Catholics need good examples such as yourselves to show how to confidently share the moral truths of our Faith with the secular culture who oppose our Faith.
I thought your and Trent’s point about the emotional connection in sex, the example about a nurse and a patient, caused Destiny to contradict an earlier point he made. Well done from this Protestant!
@@capcaptainmycaptain4771My “mascot” preexisted creation and set up a Church that has weathered wars, revolutions, plague, and persecution for 2000. Little more than “magic” Dawkins
@@capcaptainmycaptain4771My “mascot” preexisted creation and set up a Church that has weathered wars, revolutions, plague, and persecution for 2000. Little more than “magic” Dawkins
I was so grateful to hear you both take on such a pervasive issue/worldview in our society. Trent is a very talented and experienced debater and he didn't prove otherwise during this debate. I always enjoy hearing him engage others in debates. I would compliment you too though, Lila. You kept to the topic (as much as possible) even in the face of insults and you were an example of grace, tenacity, and tolerance.
I think Trent could have delved a little deeper on the topic when it went to the “insane person” part. The reason why eating animals is morally permissible, is because their not rational persons. Destiny actually subscribed to a view that animals are “philosophical zombies”, from what I know Anyways. The reason why having relati-s with an animals is wrong, isn’t bc it harms anyone, it is the action itself that is wrong, bc it is not na-ral. That actually leads into the lgb- debate. But I think Trent could have asked the question, “Is it fitting for human dignity for a man to have relat-ns with an animal?” The Moral Repugnance argument is spot on, and if you get rid of this, then you might as well remove all morality, which makes moral argumentation useless. Obviously, certain things better fit the dignity of man in cases of s-- relationships, and only one thing “fits” the other, for this type of relationship to work. And it isn’t a car, another of the s-me s-, an ani-l, etc.
Fwiw i think lila needs to remember that the people she was debating are so jaded that they don't even think of divorce or abortion as a bad thing. I think that was a big disconnect in the conversation
She also shot herself in the foot by using the word "cheating." It's too vague and is reinterpreted by secular people. They should have stuck to "adultery" in the context of married men watching other women have sex
You do not have to be jaded to view the mechanisms of divorce and abortion as not a bad thing unless it disagrees with your moral system, or, you hold religious beliefs that these practices conflict with - many see divorce as a *very* useful tool for escaping *atrocious* marital situations, and abortion can be an efficient procedure in a number of circumstances. Typically these debates devolve into arguing the root religious moral factors that drive the statements and less of the statements themselves. This is why theistic moral arguments as a whole will not be as effective as many religious individuals would expect - or otherwise phrased that they have difficulty understanding why a person who does not share in their religion could hold such a view- It is almost a certainty the individual views the religious party in the same way. Anything derived from a religious value depends on the validity of the religion itself to someone who does not share their religious belief - here, you will find incredulity on both sides, over the exact same thing
44:56 I don't think Trent knows that Destiny never promoted his polyamorous lifestyle. In fact, he explicitly said polyamory probably only works for a small subset of people and if anything, encouraged people NOT to imitate him.
I really want a pt 2, i think the point Destiny made at the end was so crucial: That is, even if every study agreed that porn and sex work produced positive impacts, you both (and I as well) would still think it is wrong. And I think this leads to the more important topic of what sex is for, and not just “who can produce more studies”
That’s not an interesting question at all. They arrive to the stance they did BECAUSE of the bad results from sex work. If sex work was this great thing that caused no harm and only good, no one would push back and I fully believe this to be true. The reality is there is no slew of studies that show sex work is good. There are tons of studies that show the opposite. What destiny did there was a rhetorical trick to get an optics win at the end and it worked on you and probably many others.
Agreed, it really shows the pointlessness of actually debating the morals of sex or sex work with religious people. It doesn't matter what evidence and studies show, religions have their rules, that's it. Doesn't matter if it's good or bad, rules are rules.
@@capcaptainmycaptain4771 Where do you think those rules came from? It’s called thousands of years of learned experience, passed down generation to generation, codified in a book. They figured out sex work was wrong a long time ago. We are just a society full of degenerates that reject anything that doesn’t allow us to live in hedonism.
On Trent/Lila's view, that could never be the case (that every study showed good results for sex work) because sex work is already an immoral act and immoral acts necessarily have bad consequences. It's like saying..."if genocide showed good results, you'd still be against it!" Well, yes, because the genocide is already bad...
Couldn’t finish the podcast. Got too heated and lacked focus and it was hard to follow. These debates work better one on one. When it’s 2 against 2, it needs to be in a formal debate format, not an anything goes discussion. Respect you both for going on despite an unideal platform
I liked your showing on the whatever podcast. As a Catholic, I hold certain unshakeable values. But, as a Catholic, I struggle with superimposing my religious values on the world around me. The Bible is my ethical study guide that it took time to realize not everyone had a copy of. Some people have read it and just don’t agree with it. Some people hate my book altogether. I’ve had my beliefs rocked more often than I’d care to admit, and Destiny is one of those people capable of doing it on a regular occasion. The problem is he’s arguing in good faith, and he’s arguing extremely well. I’m glad you guys went out and gave a debate with him a try. He seems to fall in the middle of a lot of cultural disparities in America, and convincing him is a solid step toward convincing the rest of the world on a given topic. He’ll give us a fair shake, he won’t poison the audience he brings to the conversation against us, so I only see pros in doing something like this again. Appreciate it 🙏
The moral law is written on the hearts of man. It is self-evident that porn is disordered and unhealthy. People like Destiny lack a coherent understanding of the purpose of life
I think you are giving Destiny a bit too much credit. He has the ability to sound smart and is quick on the draw, so to speak. But being quick and knowing some debate terms does not a good argument make. He makes himself seem far more authoritative than he is just given his personality. And unfortunately, many people today can't see past personalities to the arguments (or lack there of). The fact that he sits "in the middle" of many topics of debate is not a point in his favor. It means he is neither hot or cold, and has no firm moral groundings. "It depends" seems to be his mantra. It allows him to weasel around making firm moral arguments. And the arguments he does make firmly are abhorrent - like his stance that using a child with no mental facilities, as a sexual object would be okay, because they would have no memory or cognitive process. I hope it doesn't take someone like Trent to dispel his power over people - I would hope people could realize his arguments are incoherent would be enough. I've seen him on other platforms speaking about multiple topics and it comes off the same way every time. You just have to see past the quick tongue and blue hair.
It’s insane to me that Trent’s jab toward Destiny would be considered a “low blow” when the Destiny’s relational woes are (presumably) directly related to the argument at hand.
1. Saying "No, it's cuz you're not sane!" was spectacular. 2. Trent telling Destiny "We see how that's worked out" about his failed "marriage" was great, especially since it came after Destiny mocked religion - "You come after us I'll come after you."
Coward that can’t contend with any hypothetical that doesn’t favor him optically says he likes when his opposition can contend with his extreme hypotheticals and bite bullets.
Have you both watched the debate at the time of this review? I agree not to harm Destiny in any way after the Debate, but his “rationalizing” having sex with animals is about the biggest slam dunk you could have ever asked for? Obviously minimizing the negative effects to Destiny, but maximizing the awareness of the outcomes of disordered sex.
@@Jimbo5900Take a step back. Breathe. Touch grass. Then, take in the idea that your worldview is unable to rebut literal sex with animals. If that doesn't open your eyes to that maybe, just maybe you're on the wrong side, nothing will.
Thank you so much for your efforts it’s so helpful and always stunning conversations with great people . I’m hoping to get baptised catholic this Easter 2024 then my two children following that 🦢 🐥 🐥 and so hope my Husband too🦢💝it’s certainly an adventure with lots to learn !God bless you three baby 2 👼
I’m going to be brutally honest. While I think both Lila and Jazmen made decent points, I don’t think either really knew how to debate. This isn’t to say that they’re unintelligent-quite the opposite-but that Trent and Destiny are skilled, practiced debaters who I think made the most salient points. Regardless, it was fun to watch and Lila & Trent clearly win.
I actually feel like Trent specifically cut Lila off so many times. He acted as if he was in a 1v1 debate, for so many topics. I genuinely feel like a Lila debate 1 on 1 with Destiny would be extremely well done. I am formerly Catholic and I think a lot of what Destiny says is extremely accurate. You just have to take God out of it. Kinda a weird way to look at it. I'm still a believer, just not Catholic.
he literally had to because she kept taking up all the time going on rants and cutting off the other guests. They arent the same person w the exact same beleifs he has to express his points too.@@XhibitedComa
@@XhibitedComaLila was on whatever before, without Trent (with another person on her side instead) and it was basically a disaster. I think Trent was just trying to steer the boat on a steady course, so to speak.
@@Mrs_Homemaker yeah it was pretty bad. Lol but I just remember destiny talking about how the other girl interrupted just to have Trent do the same lol
I wish you both had been more willing to give full answers on the hypotheticals. They usually gave very clear answers to the hypotheticals you posed whereas you both seemed unwilling to engage. I think it would have bought some goodwill between the other side. Otherwise, an awesome debate. Great job!
17:35 That statement is so true. There was a HUGE difference in how Lila and Jazmyn presented themselves. People were distracted by how Jazmyn was dressed and made sexual comments throughout the debate. That was pretty sad because I don't think people recognized how good she debated.
Not really, alot of people just listen to debates. They don't actually watch them. So what people are wearing or their presentation only comes up sometimes by the people talking. Sounds more like Lila had the usual religious judgments about another woman's clothing. Meh.
@@shipwreckeddemon1943 In the live chat, people were talking about her breasts. They kept saying, “Big milkers,” or “I am thinking of milk all of a sudden.”
I am a straight woman, and I was distracted by Jazmen's low-cut top. I don't think she debated that well though, either. Destiny and Trent were the better debaters.
I don’t understand the confusion about porn addiction. It effects the brain so much. Causes anxiety, depression, views of women and people in general. Also, I know people who have detoxed from it and have had headaches and other withdrawal symptoms and then notice how different they view women and how their ADHD goes away.
It's not clear that there is a physical dependency though. With alcohol or drugs, your body can become physically dependent and suffer physical illness from withdrawal. With porn, it does seem to be true that your brain is rewired to an extent, but you don't suffer physical illness when you stop. There's no physical barrier preventing you from stopping since it's all in your mind. "Compulsion" is a much better word since it doesn't create any confusion over what is meant
For Lila it must’ve felt like being able to be on Tyson’s team in the early years. Just getting to be with such a Titan in apologetics and debate must’ve felt so cool. But great job to both of you phenomenal debate and destiny had so many mental and moral gymnastics to go through for his points
So I don’t think anyone did great in the sex work debate but let’s all agree Lila is so much more tolerable than the lady she was with in the abortion debate.
I'm glad you both teamed up for this debate. It's good that both sexes are present to discuss these topics. I hope y'all consider working together again. Jesus bless you both.
I asked a Destiny fan "So the idea of having sexual relations with a relative doesn't make you feel any sort of way?" and they told me: "What do you mean ? ... You mean like horny ? ... I guess... I didn't have any religious education, and none of my parents and grandparents were religious, so no one was reacting to "sexual relations with relative" in a unfavorable way around me, and no one ingrained into my brain their irrational religious dogma when I was a kid... " They think they only reason humans are against incest is because of Religion! Halleluah!
But in fairness, incest was accepted way waaaaay back when humans have low population. But that was way back abraham’s time which was eons ago. Or maybe even prior to abraham’s time. Now it is prohibited because genetic anomalies can occur at higher percentage rate on the child of very close incest relationship. Something to do with dna and hereditary traits and diseases and anomalies… it is against charity and love, that’s why it is considered a sin. So of course if you really know how to love, you wont subject your child to that kind of torture just to satisfy your own selfish desire.
Scroll to 14:30 before they start talking about the subject in the title of the video. Edit: Nevermind they only talked about the subject of the title of the video for a couple minutes but it starts at 14:30ish for the few minutes that it lasted.
Another great discussion, thank you, Lila. Trent is always great. By the way I feel like saying human fetus is redundant. Fetus is just Latin for unborn child. It’s just an obfuscation that pro abortion people use, knowing that most people today aren’t educated such that they know the etymology of that word.
Coming from Destiny's side I didn't care much for Lila but I respected Trent. Only problem I had is how he took things pretty extreme with sexwork i.e. focusing on watersports. Most of sexwork isn't that crazy, actually the majority is done in a safe way, at least physically.
Trent, I so appreciate all of the debating that you do in defense of the faith. On that note I was hoping that you would do a debate on evolution vs. Young earth creationism with someone from the Kolbe Center. Is that a possibility?!
good debate but damn I have never someone try to interrupt as much as Lila did. came across very tunnel visioned and defensive. Hope she can calm down if there's a round 2
Keep up with the good work Trent and Lila,I ardently follow your channels.Can't wait for your next match up together but one thing though is that Trent should be more patient when the other person is airing his/her views and not talk over them since it hinders the other person to fully express their view points..
What are you talking about Trent? Destiny didn’t realize his beastiality argument wasn’t working in the debate, probably still doesn’t. Many times he has made and defended that position online, he has long thought having sex with animals is ok in the past? That was a perfect opportunity for Catholics to display their world view to the world?
My absolute favorite moment of Trent in the debate is when he screamed at Destiny “you’re not SANE!” Also - I learned that Destiny is trisexual. Not surprised but didn’t see that coming. What a crazy debate. WTG Trent getting the demons to expose themselves!
@@Kalypso24perhaps it’s not the right term… these “identities” aren’t my forte. But Destiny defended sex with animals as more moral than killing animals for food or sport… and he defended incest and a host of other things… because he’s “not religious.” To which Trent Horn responded “no! It’s because you’re not sane! You’re an insane person!” That part of the debate was crazy. Didn’t exactly enjoy it - but when Trent said that it was all worth it. It’s a 2hr38m30s when he says that.
It’s less about being insane and more about disgust not being a good enough reason for Destiny to condemn a thing - there needs to be an actual impact that worsens things. For example, let’s say that two gay virgin twin brothers have sex, enjoy the experience, and decide to keep it private and not to do it again. For the purpose of the hypothetical, there’s no imbalance in the power dynamic between them, there are no STDs passed, no possible way to produce offspring with genetic defects, no influence on wider society etc.. This is a hypothetical perfect instance of incest - all of the negative outcomes commonly (but not *necessarily*) associated with incest are avoided and we’re left with the act itself. The incest might produce a feeling of disgust, but we’d struggle to say how that action actually produces harm. Disgust isn’t a reliable tool for producing moral outcomes and can even lead to seriously flawed moral intuitions. For example, some people feel disgust at interracial relationships - in the past an IR relationship might have even produced *more* disgust than an incestuous one (hello, Hapsburgs). So we need something besides disgust to condemn a practice, and the perfect act of incest which produces no clear harm to the parties involved presents a problem on those grounds.
What a marathon that must have been. Human dignity - if society does not value and protect human dignity, well … and does anyone really, honestly believe that pornography / sex work promotes the dignity of the person? … with all its secretiveness, hiding, embarrassment, shame, etc.
I dont even consider the act of watching pornography relevant to dignity. To me its no different from taking a dump. Neither of which has posed an issue in my relationships or day to day life. Well, unless I drop a stinker. I think its important to understand that people hold different values and different internal senses of right and wrong. A great number of people have been raised with your christian values but theres also a great deal who have not. People like me say you're free to refrain from the activities you see as sinful, but dont try and regulate that for everyone else.
@@ThisDonut I would argue that drawing a comparison between defection and the sex act proves my point. I’m kidding of course because I know what you’re getting at, and I agree with you, no one should tell you or anyone how to live their lives (within the boundaries of the law and respecting other people’s rights). BUT I would say that committing to a life where virtue is a goal (and failing, and starting over, and failing again, etc) does lead to better outcomes in your life ( your own happiness, less chaos around you, better relationships, etc). That’s not a Catholic thing, I’d say that is a truth of human nature. But ‘you do you’ as they say, that’s definitely your right. When life turns bad, if it does, think about giving this other option a try and and commit to it for 6 months and see for yourself if there are changes. Take it from a previous non believer, there is something to it.
@@jimsande5428 lol im glad you get it, they're both bodily functions and its just your christian upbringing that makes you think theyr anything more than that. i too think virtue is a goal that can help improve outcomes and its quite fortunate pornography isnt related to that pursuit. if someone finds themselves addicted to it and its causing irl problems then im with you, try something else for awhile. everyone has different personalities and if they arent crossing anyone elses rights we shouldnt try and legislate anything against those actions, like watching pornography. let the individual have responsibility for themselves.
@@ThisDonutthis is such a wild take. Even from a purely secular perspective people understand sex is far from some non meaningful bodily function. It’s literally why there are billions of songs and movies and novels about the pains of love, romance, rejection, pining for the other, and very few about taking shits. Sex is intimately linked with the body and life of another person, and when you attempt to detach them the only fracture that happens is in the person’s own psyche. This is why sexual trauma is so devastating, why there is literally an entire industry of therapists to address sexual wounds in one’s past, and why there so many works of art that depict attempting to detach sex from our emotional and mental well being and always failing.
@@wierdpocket theres all those things because thats how cultures framed sex. our feelings towards sex are like most things, a social construct. sex and romance do not necessarily go hand in hand even if they can compliment each other. thats why prostitution is a thing, or why sexless relationships exist.
I have no idea how in the world a western priest could possibly have time for a family. The church forces our priests to spend SOOOO MUCH TIMMMEEE on the attached schools (which are awful at least around here) that our priests have to be full-time priests AND principals. They have to celebrate mass, the other sacraments, marriages, funerals, baptisms, minister to the prisoners, advise the local evangelization groups like pro-life stuff, but then they also have to administrate the school and the hundreds or thousands of students there. Western priests don't have enough time to be PRIESTS given how much time they have to invest in schools (which btw, again, the schools arent great because we allow secular students). It would be objectively impossible for western priests to be married.
A red-pill tenant that is 100% spot on is that women (on average) are both far more manipulative and better at manipulation than the average man. Here's an example, I worked in college administration for about 15 years. Women would come to me daily with excuses as to why they were falling behind. Usually the formula was predictable: Step 1) Start off (relatively) calm with the sob story. If that fails... Step 2) Cry. If that fails... Step 3) Yell, threaten and otherwise make a scene. It's amazing how fast and easily women can turn on and off the waterworks! I think the reason why both feminists and the religious right hate red pill content is because it educates young guys earlier than we were. Men who are more educated tend to be more discerning and discerning men are harder to control.
I finally saw the end of the video, you’re worried about a slight comment about his choice of marriage. Which wasn’t that bad at all Trent. The Beastiality response was huge and I don’t know how you’re still missing it even at this point!!!!!!
@@TrideepNagg destiny does not think there is anything more wrong about having sex with an animal than killing one. He thinks killing animals is ok because they taste good and brings him pleasure. Killing would be worse than having sex with one, therefore if having sex with an animal brought someone pleasure then there’s nothing wrong with that. That was a huge admittance of what his world view leads to that should be the highlighted moment of this debate to let everyone hear. Let everyone hear him defend that position and see what everyone thinks about that. This is why the transgender argument has been such a victory for conservatism, because the absurdities that come out of their world view that has been detached from fundamental truths is where most people can start to see they’re wrong. Or at least people who haven’t thought deeply about what has been going on. The average person who doesn’t think deeply about many things, but works, enjoys what they can when they can, don’t know which side is right or wrong. When people started saying men can be women the average person took notice. They thought, I’m not a scientist, philosopher or doctor, but I’m pretty sure a man cannot become an actual woman. The average person hearing Destiny say having sex with animals is ok, is going to think well that’s definitely not true. This is a great example to point out to the world, what do you think about Destiny’s conclusion? Most people with see that’s it’s crazy and then we can point out that it’s because of his world view that he arrived at such a crazy conclusion.
46:49 Saying that killing an animal is worse than sleeping with it is the same when someone says getting r**ed is worse than murder. If you eat meat you should be ok with people sleeping with the animal. The animal did not consent to either
I'm sorry, that's incorrect across the board. Firstly, animals are not sapient beings with no hard evidence supporting any conclusions to the contrary. R*pe and murder and consent are the concerns of sapient beings only. Secondly humans are omnivores, it's biologically beneficial and arguably imperative in a truly natural environment, to eat meat. There is no biological imperative to attempt breeding with a species outside of our own in fact the results are pretty horrific. Morally and biologically there is no ground to stand upon for this position.
@@wills9392 So chimps are not animals? Cool. So animals can never r*pe like dolphins? We do not have to eat meat to survive or get protein so that argument falls flat as well. Also, sex is not only use for breeding humans do it all the time without producing an offspring. So why is it morally right to eat an animal but not copulate with it?
The difficulty with demonstrating sex work is wrong is that on its own it litterally comes across as just an opinion. Pope Francis mentioned this in one of his writings (can't remember which one). That certain truths can only be understood and accepted in light of other truths. For example, if you tell a person that knows nothing about religion that sex is for the consummation of the marital covenant that may sound very forgein to them. That's not to say that these things should not be preached, it just might not be the most effective way to convert people; although some might convert due to it. But rather our kerygma should be eclectic.
I watched the debate. Trent lost his cool on at least two occasions. And he was off balance every time Steven ( Destiny) spoke. Lila was again talking over everyone which is her way of debating. At least on the two debates I’ve seen her on. Both on Whatever. When Steven and the other woman were asked questions they always answered. And truthfully. And explained why they thought the way they did. Lila and Trent never answered a direct question that was even slightly morally ambiguous. That is telling. Steven has some confronting and difficult to understand views. He is aware of it and upfront on his views. Trent and Lila are not. They cannot/will not answer questions without obfuscation. Steven is live and let live. Trent and Lila want to control. Personally I would not let people like Trent and Lila in control of my life. I would not/never want to live Steven’s lifestyle. But if I was asked who do I trust more. It would be Steven and the lady he was debating with. They were always transparent. You can trust someone who is not telling you what to do and also gives information freely. Then doesn’t judge you for your decision.
I've been watching Trent Horn videos lately. I've known him before he got into UA-cam, but after watching him alot these days, I wondered if he has Jewish roots. Haha I thought right.
So how much money do I have to pay for you to answer for your integrity? How can you claim any moral high ground? It's a simple question: where's your apology to Brian Atlas? Or didn't he deserve one?
34:50 I appreciate Trent trying to keep his message open to people who are non-religious, but he assumes a porn user is necessarily someone who is aroused by violence and degradation.
@g07denslicer well, how do you define an absence of love? Hate, right? Hatred of the good, which is an act of violence (not physical) towards the Good. Good of the other, yourself, and God. Am i missing something?
@@martinciglenecki526 But neutrality is also an absence of love, but I wouldn't call neutrality hate. It is just the absence of both love and hate. And yeah, you are employing mental gymnastics in order to enlarge what anyone would mean by violence, so it includes non-violent porn. If you want a word for something that is against Good, just use evil. I'll still disagree that porn is evil, but I wouldn't have a problem with your word usage.
It’s nice to see how much Lila respects and learns from an experienced debater like Trent. She comes from a place of humility and it’s a breath of fresh air! You can really see their friendship shining!
As someone that is protestant considering Catholicism, I must say it is a bit of a strawman to say protestants assume many things when catholics seem to do just as well.
Obviously I’m not expecting that they or I could have been able to act as perfectly as I’m about to suppose they could have, but here’s what I thought while watching. When Destiny decided to take the hard stance on having sex with an animal being “better” than killing an animal that was a very important point to pivot on. I think Trent did a good job grabbing the opportunity when she first said it. Trent obviously was taken back at first, but when Destiny doubled down and took a hard, hard stance on this, the veil was removed. I think Trent was still just in shock by the whole situation and by the way he said it depends, it depends and in different voices. He literally was just in shock and reasonably so. At that point I think the most Christ like thing to have done would have been to excuse themselves from the debate, because Destiny is obviously a hurt individual and wasn’t in his right mind. Even if it wasn’t specifically just that moment he’s out of his mind, he was then. Again this is if they could have been Christ like, obviously from my humble opinion, they should have just left at that point. It would have highlighted that point of the debate. It would have let the world acknowledge this was a crazy redline from people who understand ordered reality. It would have shown mercy to Destiny who very well is a lost confused ex Catholic, but maybe particularly lost that day.
@@bluecomb5376 Yes we will! We even cheated a little and had a ”lucia tåg” (lucy procession) as part of mass last Sunday, but we will have it on the proper date (13th Dec) as well.
@@bluecomb5376 I had to look it up, but seems like many swedish recepies add cardamum, so seems like a thing even though I dont think about cardamum when I think lussekatt. Saffron being the main spice. Good luck with your baking!
I depends then on your own moral outlook. Either you value yourself above society, or you value society over yourself. You could boil it down to wherever ultimately does the least harm is moral.
Hello, I hope anyone will read that comment. It's not exactly about this debate, but I'm looking for some points on a wider debate of sexuality from Catholic/Christian point of view. So I was wondering, has anyone some thoughts about the phrase 'genital preference'? It gets thrown around a lot, and I honestly hate that phrase, but I can't explain it why. To me it's just kind of pornographic and reductive. But how to explain it to people who use this phrase as something normal/obvious? (they use if for example to explain why they might be gay or lesbian, or in the context that it is or isn't - depending who's speaking - 'transphobic' or whatnot, things like that.).
By the end of the debate it felt clear that there had been a subtle but continuous and accumulating force for Lila and Trent, where as the debate winds down Jazmin is fumbling around trying not to sound ridiculous about animals and destiny sitting on his hands quietly for the last 30 minutes. If they had paused right then and reread the topic of the debate and the positions they were defending as they down down the debate…. Pretty clear. Jazmen was so study-happy that maybe destiny felt it would be overkill but in hindsight did destiny do anything at any point to advance his position? Mostly he played defense all debate… quibbling with definitions and language and trying to deflect Trent and Lila’s position without advocating for his own. That left jazmen with the job of throwing papers in the air on random studies and porn positive facts that I didn’t find particularly persuasive in any way.
I love Trent and Lila, but I thought the debate was not at all productive. The arguments felt out of touch with the more core issues. As someone who went to middle school in 2012 where everyone started to obsessively watch PornHub, I don't think the "increased sexual assault" is at all compelling. If anything, it's the opposite problem where people watch so much porn that it's impossible to have meaningful in-person relationships. There's also the problem of being completely desensitized to normal arousement which in some ways is the opposite problem as increased violence. Porn has played a huge role in all the sexual deviance which again is primarily bad because it reduces the opportunities for meaningful relationships in the physical world
@Qwerty-jy9mj He's said multiple times that he doesn't adovate for it, and most people can't and probably shouldn't live that way. So that's not true.
Just wanna say, Trent is the man. His debate against James White on eternal security put me over the fence for Catholicism. I was confirmed this past easter.
I think I'm a year behind you. Last May, I was determined to debunk Catholics online after the Stuckey/Farmer debate but soonafter saw the Eternal Security debate which caused me to seriously second guess my beliefs on salvation. I'm in RCIA set for this Easter!
@sivad1025 That's so awesome brother.... I can truly say I've never felt more at home. I know everyone says that and something like it but I feel a genuine love for everyone I've met so far at my parish. I'm so excited for mass tomorrow, i have to say my favorite part is absolution after confession and penance. The state of Grace for me is something i cant get enough of. Of course im still new and have to go to confession every week but the sacrament is there.
My priest is a total scholar, he's on that William albrecht level with the fathers. I hope you have just as much fulfillment as I do. God bless you brother!
@@timboslice980 I'm so excited for confession. It's so shocking to me that Protestants dropped that tradition.
Don't know if you've ever seen Trent's "The Not-so-simple Protestant plan for Salvation," but that was another monumental video for me. His point about how Catholics have physical assurance of their forgiveness while logically-consistent Protestants live in fear of having been never saved resonated with me.
If you don't mind me asking, if the Eternal Security debate came at the end for you, what made you consider the Catholic church in the first place?
@sivad1025 Long story and I get scoffed at by every protestant who hears it but I'll tell you. I was an anti catholic calvinist... I watched James white, his buddy Jeff Durbin, doug Wilson, John macarthur, John piper, rc Sproul, and John Samson. I read commentaries by Calvin and luther, celebrated reformation day in October by watching that Luther movie every year. Problem was my life was drowning in sin. My wife was getting wild, I was getting wild, my 3 year old was saying omg. I just felt like if I was elect, sins couldn't really seperate me. I started to question if I was elect at all.... then something happened where my wife and I almost got a divorce. I prayed to God to give me a clue, show me where I had gone wrong. That night I had a dream of a Catholic priest and I saw the entire history of the church starting with the Catholics and splintering off after half the church's lifespan then splintering into hundreds and then thousands of smaller and more distant groups. The visual for me was almost like a snowball made of people.... I could see their hands and faces but they were all massed together. People of every race.
It started out small then grew and grew to a large snowball by the end it was still the biggest, most prominent, and obviously original snowball. Then I saw the obviously catholic priest again and he was smiling. I woke up and thought I had lost my mind or I had seen one too many exorcist movies but I felt compelled to study the catholic church if for any reason to stop these crazy thoughts I was having.
I never stopped studying the church since that day. Turns out 90% of what the protestants told me about the church wasn't true and its super easy to disprove. I thought only the true church would be this big, this visible, this old, this charitable, this right on theology, and then I started looking into the miracles.
The shroud of turin, the tilma of guadaloupe, kibeho, Akita, lourdes, and the blood of st januarius. I didn't know a single catholic. I didn't know any apologists, the youtube algorithm had zero catholic material, I mean at that point I'd be a total moron not to join the church. How about you friend?
@@timboslice980 I love the story. Sounds like a lot of conversion stories from ex-Muslim Christians.
For me, a lot of things happened all at once. But notably, the George Farmer/Allie Beth Stuckey debate created a lot of debate in a Matt Walsh fans Facebook group (very niche, I know). I wasn't at all convinced by the Catholic arguments, but I wanted to more definitively debunk them on the papal infallibility and "works-based salvation" so I watched James White vs. Patrick Madrid on Sola Scriptura and James White vs. Trent Horn on Eternal Security. Like you, I watched White and Deff Durbin's channel, but they both rubbed me the wrong way, particularly with how they treated David Wood (long story behind that lol). James White is really a walking stereotype of the stodgy, self-righteous Calvinist who pretends that he's really humble because he believes in "faith alone." Anyway, I thought White was wiped in both debates which led me to binging Trent's and Matt Fradd's videos.
I'm still not 100% convinced on everything, but the Catholic doctrine on salvation is so much more robust and coherent with scripture. I totally agree that the Calvinist system leads to constant anxiety over whether we were ever saved to begin with. They talk out both sides of their mouths by saying we shouldn't be scared of salvation because God will forgive all sins by those in the elect to whom he offers grace... but that doesn't fix the issue of security, it only kicks the can down the road and makes us question initial salvation. It's a complete disaster that does not at all comport with James' and Hebrews' teachings on salvation.
Loved the debate. High point:
Destiny: "I'm not religious.
Trent: "You're insane!"
😂😂
That whole interaction about bestiality was so surreal. I couldn’t believe that Destiny tried to say that he can’t understand why bestiality is worse than killing an animal for food because he isn’t religious. The Trent rightfully shoots back “it’s not because you aren’t religious. It’s because you’re INSANE! You’re an insane person!” 😂 what a self own by Destiny. He basically claimed “if I were religious then I could understand why bestiality is wrong.” Yeah buddy that’s the point. Even though you don’t need religion to have the ick factor for bestiality.
Trent was phenomenal in his logic, but, yes, that was the best moment by far
@@jonathanfairchildit’s a fair point. Raping and killing are similar. Many wouldn’t say murder is worse.
@@hrothgr52destiny can’t actually make that claim on his world view. (With regards to animals) I can expand on that if you want. 😊
Destiny and Jasmine defending bestiality was absolutely insane
They didn't defend bestiality. They said killing animals is worse. You do know that the meat industry entails the raping of animals?
As a Liberal myself. It was weird to hear them say that. Also not sure why they didn’t bring up many deontological philosophers that find it wrong but don’t cite their work to religion
@@CromulentEmbiggeningWhy would the immorality of an industry make eating meat immoral? For instance, porn is immoral but it doesn't mean sex itself is so.
I think Lila and Trent should prep together for some time before entering the arena. They looked more like a team compared to Destiny and Jazmen, but at certain time, Lila and Trent failed to harmonize their arguments to make their case stronger.
Yes. I felt like Lila especially was undermining some important points.
I also think it's good to have both sexes represented for topics like this, but Lila really underplayed all the ways young men are affected by porn. She focused too much on how women are abused where I think the data is in fact sketchy. It's a much easier argument to make that men have had their expectations for sex completely twisted from a young age and stops both sexes from engaging in meaningful relationships
I'm a pagan and love how much Catholics oppose abortion, euthanasia, and the sex trade. This was a good debate and both Lila and Trent did very well. Lila acted like a scholar and Trent was more like a pitbull. I love that dynamic!
The earliest scripture used to have more of a shared living with Pagans, and I've heard some arguments say the ancient Pagans were at least respectable compared to what's in this modern world. Appreciate the unity and God bless 🙏🏾
Totally agree, Catholics do a great job of defending the sanctity of human life.
@@dontewithdragons I don't know anything about early scripture but that's very interesting. My whole tribe are pagans and it's how I was raised. I'm alarmed at some of the global trends have found that Christians generally but Catholics specifically can be a good ally in fighting for the value of women and human life.
@@Stanisthemanis They do! They are also very tribal when u think about it. I've observed the way they are and they are very much like my people.
@brycepardoe658 There was a reference to pagans being directly spared in the Bible after some sort of repentance for something. I'm not too well versed on it, But we can say there were pagans that had better reputations than pharisees. Despite disagreeing, It is a beautiful thing to appreciate the natural and have a spiritual root. There are catholics who are spiritual and there are also orthodox such as east orthodoxy, that is spiritual. I see this is somebody who almost became buddhist a while back. Personally I'm always going to have a soft spot for those related to that 😅
When you have Trent on your debate team, its like having Micheal Jordan on your team, Trent is one of the best debaters I have seen, always ready, always prepared for every question. Destiny is a smart guy, and quick thinker himself, but just on the wrong side.
Yeah, maybe MJ as a decrepit old drunk. Or maybe a petulant child. Not many can pull off his patented blend of deliberate obtuseness and condescension.
Thank you both for another amazing debate on the whatever podcast! Please continue to go back as you are both breaking through to a wider audience of which is highly relevant and influential when it comes to our culture today. You're reaching people who would otherwise never be exposed to your platforms or arguments so thank you! You both are the voices that we need to be expressed more of in popular culture!
Trent and Lila you guys did great on Whatever!! I always look forward to when you guys go on that show!! We Catholics need good examples such as yourselves to show how to confidently share the moral truths of our Faith with the secular culture who oppose our Faith.
You both did a phenomenal job and I really can’t stress how important your message is for the world today
I thought your and Trent’s point about the emotional connection in sex, the example about a nurse and a patient, caused Destiny to contradict an earlier point he made. Well done from this Protestant!
Two INCREDIBLE minds came together and did a stella job. I appreciate all the information you both gave. 💫💥🏆🥇
Trent is amazing. One of the best Catholic apologist ever!
Must be easy when you can just interpret an ancient book any way you want and your mascot can do magic lol
@@capcaptainmycaptain4771must be easy to defend any immoral action when your worldview doesn’t have absolute morals and just personal preference
@@capcaptainmycaptain4771My “mascot” preexisted creation and set up a Church that has weathered wars, revolutions, plague, and persecution for 2000.
Little more than “magic” Dawkins
@@capcaptainmycaptain4771My “mascot” preexisted creation and set up a Church that has weathered wars, revolutions, plague, and persecution for 2000.
Little more than “magic” Dawkins
@@capcaptainmycaptain4771must be easy to justify anything when your world view lets you pick morals like cafeteria food
Great job on Whatever! Both you and Trent are an inspiration!
23:20 - this point Lila makes cannot be understated. Christians must be prepared to answer these questions; we are called to fight for truth.
I was so grateful to hear you both take on such a pervasive issue/worldview in our society. Trent is a very talented and experienced debater and he didn't prove otherwise during this debate. I always enjoy hearing him engage others in debates. I would compliment you too though, Lila. You kept to the topic (as much as possible) even in the face of insults and you were an example of grace, tenacity, and tolerance.
That is so kind. Thank you ❤
I was trying to boost Trent in chat and Lila this was my first encounter with you and I was really impressed. I thought you both did really well.
Thank you 🙏
@@LilaRosePodcastfor sure, and thanks for putting yourself in the spotlight to debate these things. It’s not something I think I could ever do.
I think Trent could have delved a little deeper on the topic when it went to the “insane person” part. The reason why eating animals is morally permissible, is because their not rational persons. Destiny actually subscribed to a view that animals are “philosophical zombies”, from what I know Anyways. The reason why having relati-s with an animals is wrong, isn’t bc it harms anyone, it is the action itself that is wrong, bc it is not na-ral. That actually leads into the lgb- debate. But I think Trent could have asked the question, “Is it fitting for human dignity for a man to have relat-ns with an animal?” The Moral Repugnance argument is spot on, and if you get rid of this, then you might as well remove all morality, which makes moral argumentation useless. Obviously, certain things better fit the dignity of man in cases of s-- relationships, and only one thing “fits” the other, for this type of relationship to work. And it isn’t a car, another of the s-me s-, an ani-l, etc.
@@kyrptonite1825agreed.
Fwiw i think lila needs to remember that the people she was debating are so jaded that they don't even think of divorce or abortion as a bad thing. I think that was a big disconnect in the conversation
She also shot herself in the foot by using the word "cheating." It's too vague and is reinterpreted by secular people. They should have stuck to "adultery" in the context of married men watching other women have sex
You do not have to be jaded to view the mechanisms of divorce and abortion as not a bad thing unless it disagrees with your moral system, or, you hold religious beliefs that these practices conflict with - many see divorce as a *very* useful tool for escaping *atrocious* marital situations, and abortion can be an efficient procedure in a number of circumstances. Typically these debates devolve into arguing the root religious moral factors that drive the statements and less of the statements themselves. This is why theistic moral arguments as a whole will not be as effective as many religious individuals would expect - or otherwise phrased that they have difficulty understanding why a person who does not share in their religion could hold such a view- It is almost a certainty the individual views the religious party in the same way. Anything derived from a religious value depends on the validity of the religion itself to someone who does not share their religious belief - here, you will find incredulity on both sides, over the exact same thing
44:56 I don't think Trent knows that Destiny never promoted his polyamorous lifestyle. In fact, he explicitly said polyamory probably only works for a small subset of people and if anything, encouraged people NOT to imitate him.
I really want a pt 2, i think the point Destiny made at the end was so crucial:
That is, even if every study agreed that porn and sex work produced positive impacts, you both (and I as well) would still think it is wrong. And I think this leads to the more important topic of what sex is for, and not just “who can produce more studies”
That’s not an interesting question at all. They arrive to the stance they did BECAUSE of the bad results from sex work. If sex work was this great thing that caused no harm and only good, no one would push back and I fully believe this to be true.
The reality is there is no slew of studies that show sex work is good. There are tons of studies that show the opposite. What destiny did there was a rhetorical trick to get an optics win at the end and it worked on you and probably many others.
Agreed, it really shows the pointlessness of actually debating the morals of sex or sex work with religious people. It doesn't matter what evidence and studies show, religions have their rules, that's it. Doesn't matter if it's good or bad, rules are rules.
@@capcaptainmycaptain4771 Where do you think those rules came from? It’s called thousands of years of learned experience, passed down generation to generation, codified in a book. They figured out sex work was wrong a long time ago. We are just a society full of degenerates that reject anything that doesn’t allow us to live in hedonism.
Yeah, but that's a cop out. You think that just because destiny isn't religious that he doesn't do the same thing?
On Trent/Lila's view, that could never be the case (that every study showed good results for sex work) because sex work is already an immoral act and immoral acts necessarily have bad consequences.
It's like saying..."if genocide showed good results, you'd still be against it!"
Well, yes, because the genocide is already bad...
That was, um, a wild ride. Towards the end when the phrase "hunting with a spear or a penis," came up, I just about died at the insanity of it all.
“It’s not because you’re not religious. It’s because you’re INSANE. You’re an insane person!” -Trent Horn 2023 😂😂
Couldn’t finish the podcast. Got too heated and lacked focus and it was hard to follow. These debates work better one on one. When it’s 2 against 2, it needs to be in a formal debate format, not an anything goes discussion. Respect you both for going on despite an unideal platform
I liked your showing on the whatever podcast. As a Catholic, I hold certain unshakeable values. But, as a Catholic, I struggle with superimposing my religious values on the world around me. The Bible is my ethical study guide that it took time to realize not everyone had a copy of. Some people have read it and just don’t agree with it. Some people hate my book altogether. I’ve had my beliefs rocked more often than I’d care to admit, and Destiny is one of those people capable of doing it on a regular occasion. The problem is he’s arguing in good faith, and he’s arguing extremely well. I’m glad you guys went out and gave a debate with him a try. He seems to fall in the middle of a lot of cultural disparities in America, and convincing him is a solid step toward convincing the rest of the world on a given topic. He’ll give us a fair shake, he won’t poison the audience he brings to the conversation against us, so I only see pros in doing something like this again. Appreciate it 🙏
He clearly doesn't argue in good faith
The moral law is written on the hearts of man. It is self-evident that porn is disordered and unhealthy. People like Destiny lack a coherent understanding of the purpose of life
Respectfully said! Would you consider Christianity a private religion?
I think you are giving Destiny a bit too much credit. He has the ability to sound smart and is quick on the draw, so to speak. But being quick and knowing some debate terms does not a good argument make. He makes himself seem far more authoritative than he is just given his personality. And unfortunately, many people today can't see past personalities to the arguments (or lack there of).
The fact that he sits "in the middle" of many topics of debate is not a point in his favor. It means he is neither hot or cold, and has no firm moral groundings. "It depends" seems to be his mantra. It allows him to weasel around making firm moral arguments.
And the arguments he does make firmly are abhorrent - like his stance that using a child with no mental facilities, as a sexual object would be okay, because they would have no memory or cognitive process.
I hope it doesn't take someone like Trent to dispel his power over people - I would hope people could realize his arguments are incoherent would be enough. I've seen him on other platforms speaking about multiple topics and it comes off the same way every time. You just have to see past the quick tongue and blue hair.
@@Qwerty-jy9mjDo you have an example of this?
I barely noticed the coughing in the debate Lila. God bless ❤
Thank you so much for debating on the Whatever podcast it was one of the best ive ever seen. BIG W Lila & Trent
It’s insane to me that Trent’s jab toward Destiny would be considered a “low blow” when the Destiny’s relational woes are (presumably) directly related to the argument at hand.
Trent is so good at debating. Bless him
THANK YOU FOR THE VIDEO LILA
I haven’t seen the whole debate but from what I saw you worked well with each other, and you brought reason to the table.
It would be interesting to see Louise Perry and Mary Harrington debate Destiny on whatever
1. Saying "No, it's cuz you're not sane!" was spectacular.
2. Trent telling Destiny "We see how that's worked out" about his failed "marriage" was great, especially since it came after Destiny mocked religion - "You come after us I'll come after you."
Would love to see trent and lila talk more about the common objections to catholicism... it would be very helpful and appreciate it
You both are so Amazing! Thank you for participating in these debates.
Coward that can’t contend with any hypothetical that doesn’t favor him optically says he likes when his opposition can contend with his extreme hypotheticals and bite bullets.
Y’all did amazing 👍🏻
Thanks ... loved this discussion.
PLZZZZ another episode on apologetics!!!!!!! 🙌🏼 mad respect for trent!!
Have you both watched the debate at the time of this review? I agree not to harm Destiny in any way after the Debate, but his “rationalizing” having sex with animals is about the biggest slam dunk you could have ever asked for? Obviously minimizing the negative effects to Destiny, but maximizing the awareness of the outcomes of disordered sex.
My favorite part was when Trent called destiny an insane person
That was my favourite part too. It really exposed Trent's very shallow understanding of ethics and moral philosophy.
@@Jimbo5900okay libt@rd
Yeah so shallow that he cant undeestand why showing children porn and banging animals is okay, if only he was an enlightened atheist!! @Jimbo5900
@@aaronbarkley539 nice, a complete misunderstanding of the debate that was being had. Very fitting! Great job, bud.
@@Jimbo5900Take a step back. Breathe. Touch grass. Then, take in the idea that your worldview is unable to rebut literal sex with animals. If that doesn't open your eyes to that maybe, just maybe you're on the wrong side, nothing will.
Thank you so much for your efforts it’s so helpful and always stunning conversations with great people . I’m hoping to get baptised catholic this Easter 2024 then my two children following that 🦢 🐥 🐥 and so hope my Husband too🦢💝it’s certainly an adventure with lots to learn !God bless you three baby 2 👼
I’m going to be brutally honest. While I think both Lila and Jazmen made decent points, I don’t think either really knew how to debate. This isn’t to say that they’re unintelligent-quite the opposite-but that Trent and Destiny are skilled, practiced debaters who I think made the most salient points. Regardless, it was fun to watch and Lila & Trent clearly win.
I actually feel like Trent specifically cut Lila off so many times. He acted as if he was in a 1v1 debate, for so many topics. I genuinely feel like a Lila debate 1 on 1 with Destiny would be extremely well done. I am formerly Catholic and I think a lot of what Destiny says is extremely accurate. You just have to take God out of it. Kinda a weird way to look at it. I'm still a believer, just not Catholic.
he literally had to because she kept taking up all the time going on rants and cutting off the other guests. They arent the same person w the exact same beleifs he has to express his points too.@@XhibitedComa
While I also cringed a little when Trent cut her off, I think it was for the sake of preserving their stake in the discussion.
@@XhibitedComaLila was on whatever before, without Trent (with another person on her side instead) and it was basically a disaster. I think Trent was just trying to steer the boat on a steady course, so to speak.
@@Mrs_Homemaker yeah it was pretty bad. Lol but I just remember destiny talking about how the other girl interrupted just to have Trent do the same lol
Thank you for a great conversation! Lila, you might have a secondary infection or pneumonia if your cough is persisting after three weeks.
I wish you both had been more willing to give full answers on the hypotheticals. They usually gave very clear answers to the hypotheticals you posed whereas you both seemed unwilling to engage. I think it would have bought some goodwill between the other side.
Otherwise, an awesome debate. Great job!
17:35
That statement is so true. There was a HUGE difference in how Lila and Jazmyn presented themselves.
People were distracted by how Jazmyn was dressed and made sexual comments throughout the debate. That was pretty sad because I don't think people recognized how good she debated.
Not really, alot of people just listen to debates. They don't actually watch them. So what people are wearing or their presentation only comes up sometimes by the people talking.
Sounds more like Lila had the usual religious judgments about another woman's clothing. Meh.
@@shipwreckeddemon1943
In the live chat, people were talking about her breasts. They kept saying, “Big milkers,” or “I am thinking of milk all of a sudden.”
I am a straight woman, and I was distracted by Jazmen's low-cut top. I don't think she debated that well though, either. Destiny and Trent were the better debaters.
Love the intro
Great interview of Trent!
Anyone with any knowledge of Christianity knows that not only does it understand consent.. It is predicated on it.
You guys are both great! Love having you represent the Catholic faith!
I don’t understand the confusion about porn addiction. It effects the brain so much. Causes anxiety, depression, views of women and people in general. Also, I know people who have detoxed from it and have had headaches and other withdrawal symptoms and then notice how different they view women and how their ADHD goes away.
It's not clear that there is a physical dependency though. With alcohol or drugs, your body can become physically dependent and suffer physical illness from withdrawal.
With porn, it does seem to be true that your brain is rewired to an extent, but you don't suffer physical illness when you stop. There's no physical barrier preventing you from stopping since it's all in your mind.
"Compulsion" is a much better word since it doesn't create any confusion over what is meant
What's that saying about playing chess with a pigeon? That's what that whatever podcast reminded me of.
For Lila it must’ve felt like being able to be on Tyson’s team in the early years. Just getting to be with such a Titan in apologetics and debate must’ve felt so cool. But great job to both of you phenomenal debate and destiny had so many mental and moral gymnastics to go through for his points
So I don’t think anyone did great in the sex work debate but let’s all agree Lila is so much more tolerable than the lady she was with in the abortion debate.
Thank you Lila! You did absolutely excellent! Thank you so much for your witness and for teaming up with Trent!
Thanks so much!
I'm glad you both teamed up for this debate. It's good that both sexes are present to discuss these topics. I hope y'all consider working together again. Jesus bless you both.
I asked a Destiny fan "So the idea of having sexual relations with a relative doesn't make you feel any sort of way?" and they told me:
"What do you mean ? ... You mean like horny ? ... I guess...
I didn't have any religious education, and none of my parents and grandparents were religious, so no one was reacting to "sexual relations with relative" in a unfavorable way around me, and no one ingrained into my brain their irrational religious dogma when I was a kid... "
They think they only reason humans are against incest is because of Religion! Halleluah!
But in fairness, incest was accepted way waaaaay back when humans have low population. But that was way back abraham’s time which was eons ago. Or maybe even prior to abraham’s time. Now it is prohibited because genetic anomalies can occur at higher percentage rate on the child of very close incest relationship. Something to do with dna and hereditary traits and diseases and anomalies… it is against charity and love, that’s why it is considered a sin.
So of course if you really know how to love, you wont subject your child to that kind of torture just to satisfy your own selfish desire.
Scroll to 14:30 before they start talking about the subject in the title of the video.
Edit: Nevermind they only talked about the subject of the title of the video for a couple minutes but it starts at 14:30ish for the few minutes that it lasted.
Another great discussion, thank you, Lila. Trent is always great. By the way I feel like saying human fetus is redundant. Fetus is just Latin for unborn child. It’s just an obfuscation that pro abortion people use, knowing that most people today aren’t educated such that they know the etymology of that word.
Coming from Destiny's side I didn't care much for Lila but I respected Trent. Only problem I had is how he took things pretty extreme with sexwork i.e. focusing on watersports. Most of sexwork isn't that crazy, actually the majority is done in a safe way, at least physically.
Trent, I so appreciate all of the debating that you do in defense of the faith. On that note I was hoping that you would do a debate on evolution vs. Young earth creationism with someone from the Kolbe Center. Is that a possibility?!
God bless you both ❤
good debate but damn I have never someone try to interrupt as much as Lila did. came across very tunnel visioned and defensive. Hope she can calm down if there's a round 2
Keep up with the good work Trent and Lila,I ardently follow your channels.Can't wait for your next match up together but one thing though is that Trent should be more patient when the other person is airing his/her views and not talk over them since it hinders the other person to fully express their view points..
What are you talking about Trent? Destiny didn’t realize his beastiality argument wasn’t working in the debate, probably still doesn’t. Many times he has made and defended that position online, he has long thought having sex with animals is ok in the past? That was a perfect opportunity for Catholics to display their world view to the world?
I like to say "offspring" or "human offspring" if the person flips out if you say baby or child
Wanna see Trent and Andrew Wilson vs Destiny and his orbiters
Comment for traction
You and Trent made an amazing team. The Saints we need in this generation 🙏
You guys are amazing! I definitely have a bias during your Whatever debate because I cannot fathom the other side's arguments one bit!!! 😅
My absolute favorite moment of Trent in the debate is when he screamed at Destiny “you’re not SANE!”
Also - I learned that Destiny is trisexual. Not surprised but didn’t see that coming. What a crazy debate. WTG Trent getting the demons to expose themselves!
what time stamp is that at? I refuse to watch the actual video
@@doctoreggman21 about 2 hours 38 minutes. Just watched that moment twice, wild conversation
Wtf is trisexual
@@Kalypso24perhaps it’s not the right term… these “identities” aren’t my forte.
But Destiny defended sex with animals as more moral than killing animals for food or sport… and he defended incest and a host of other things… because he’s “not religious.”
To which Trent Horn responded “no! It’s because you’re not sane! You’re an insane person!”
That part of the debate was crazy. Didn’t exactly enjoy it - but when Trent said that it was all worth it.
It’s a 2hr38m30s when he says that.
It’s less about being insane and more about disgust not being a good enough reason for Destiny to condemn a thing - there needs to be an actual impact that worsens things.
For example, let’s say that two gay virgin twin brothers have sex, enjoy the experience, and decide to keep it private and not to do it again. For the purpose of the hypothetical, there’s no imbalance in the power dynamic between them, there are no STDs passed, no possible way to produce offspring with genetic defects, no influence on wider society etc.. This is a hypothetical perfect instance of incest - all of the negative outcomes commonly (but not *necessarily*) associated with incest are avoided and we’re left with the act itself.
The incest might produce a feeling of disgust, but we’d struggle to say how that action actually produces harm.
Disgust isn’t a reliable tool for producing moral outcomes and can even lead to seriously flawed moral intuitions. For example, some people feel disgust at interracial relationships - in the past an IR relationship might have even produced *more* disgust than an incestuous one (hello, Hapsburgs). So we need something besides disgust to condemn a practice, and the perfect act of incest which produces no clear harm to the parties involved presents a problem on those grounds.
What a marathon that must have been.
Human dignity - if society does not value and protect human dignity, well … and does anyone really, honestly believe that pornography / sex work promotes the dignity of the person? … with all its secretiveness, hiding, embarrassment, shame, etc.
I dont even consider the act of watching pornography relevant to dignity. To me its no different from taking a dump. Neither of which has posed an issue in my relationships or day to day life. Well, unless I drop a stinker. I think its important to understand that people hold different values and different internal senses of right and wrong. A great number of people have been raised with your christian values but theres also a great deal who have not. People like me say you're free to refrain from the activities you see as sinful, but dont try and regulate that for everyone else.
@@ThisDonut I would argue that drawing a comparison between defection and the sex act proves my point. I’m kidding of course because I know what you’re getting at, and I agree with you, no one should tell you or anyone how to live their lives (within the boundaries of the law and respecting other people’s rights). BUT I would say that committing to a life where virtue is a goal (and failing, and starting over, and failing again, etc) does lead to better outcomes in your life ( your own happiness, less chaos around you, better relationships, etc). That’s not a Catholic thing, I’d say that is a truth of human nature. But ‘you do you’ as they say, that’s definitely your right. When life turns bad, if it does, think about giving this other option a try and and commit to it for 6 months and see for yourself if there are changes. Take it from a previous non believer, there is something to it.
@@jimsande5428 lol im glad you get it, they're both bodily functions and its just your christian upbringing that makes you think theyr anything more than that. i too think virtue is a goal that can help improve outcomes and its quite fortunate pornography isnt related to that pursuit. if someone finds themselves addicted to it and its causing irl problems then im with you, try something else for awhile. everyone has different personalities and if they arent crossing anyone elses rights we shouldnt try and legislate anything against those actions, like watching pornography. let the individual have responsibility for themselves.
@@ThisDonutthis is such a wild take. Even from a purely secular perspective people understand sex is far from some non meaningful bodily function. It’s literally why there are billions of songs and movies and novels about the pains of love, romance, rejection, pining for the other, and very few about taking shits. Sex is intimately linked with the body and life of another person, and when you attempt to detach them the only fracture that happens is in the person’s own psyche. This is why sexual trauma is so devastating, why there is literally an entire industry of therapists to address sexual wounds in one’s past, and why there so many works of art that depict attempting to detach sex from our emotional and mental well being and always failing.
@@wierdpocket theres all those things because thats how cultures framed sex. our feelings towards sex are like most things, a social construct. sex and romance do not necessarily go hand in hand even if they can compliment each other. thats why prostitution is a thing, or why sexless relationships exist.
I have no idea how in the world a western priest could possibly have time for a family. The church forces our priests to spend SOOOO MUCH TIMMMEEE on the attached schools (which are awful at least around here) that our priests have to be full-time priests AND principals. They have to celebrate mass, the other sacraments, marriages, funerals, baptisms, minister to the prisoners, advise the local evangelization groups like pro-life stuff, but then they also have to administrate the school and the hundreds or thousands of students there. Western priests don't have enough time to be PRIESTS given how much time they have to invest in schools (which btw, again, the schools arent great because we allow secular students). It would be objectively impossible for western priests to be married.
I was looking forward to the debate but it was difficult to watch because of the poor moderating
Same here. Apparently there was suppose to be an actual moderator, but they couldn’t make it.
You both did amazing in the debate!
Thanks for this! Get an interview with Dr. Matthew Petrusek from Word on Fire 🔥
A red-pill tenant that is 100% spot on is that women (on average) are both far more manipulative and better at manipulation than the average man.
Here's an example, I worked in college administration for about 15 years. Women would come to me daily with excuses as to why they were falling behind. Usually the formula was predictable:
Step 1) Start off (relatively) calm with the sob story. If that fails...
Step 2) Cry. If that fails...
Step 3) Yell, threaten and otherwise make a scene.
It's amazing how fast and easily women can turn on and off the waterworks!
I think the reason why both feminists and the religious right hate red pill content is because it educates young guys earlier than we were. Men who are more educated tend to be more discerning and discerning men are harder to control.
Another comment for traction
I finally saw the end of the video, you’re worried about a slight comment about his choice of marriage. Which wasn’t that bad at all Trent. The Beastiality response was huge and I don’t know how you’re still missing it even at this point!!!!!!
Wym?
@@TrideepNagg destiny does not think there is anything more wrong about having sex with an animal than killing one. He thinks killing animals is ok because they taste good and brings him pleasure. Killing would be worse than having sex with one, therefore if having sex with an animal brought someone pleasure then there’s nothing wrong with that. That was a huge admittance of what his world view leads to that should be the highlighted moment of this debate to let everyone hear. Let everyone hear him defend that position and see what everyone thinks about that.
This is why the transgender argument has been such a victory for conservatism, because the absurdities that come out of their world view that has been detached from fundamental truths is where most people can start to see they’re wrong. Or at least people who haven’t thought deeply about what has been going on.
The average person who doesn’t think deeply about many things, but works, enjoys what they can when they can, don’t know which side is right or wrong. When people started saying men can be women the average person took notice. They thought, I’m not a scientist, philosopher or doctor, but I’m pretty sure a man cannot become an actual woman. The average person hearing Destiny say having sex with animals is ok, is going to think well that’s definitely not true.
This is a great example to point out to the world, what do you think about Destiny’s conclusion? Most people with see that’s it’s crazy and then we can point out that it’s because of his world view that he arrived at such a crazy conclusion.
46:49 Saying that killing an animal is worse than sleeping with it is the same when someone says getting r**ed is worse than murder. If you eat meat you should be ok with people sleeping with the animal. The animal did not consent to either
I'm sorry, that's incorrect across the board. Firstly, animals are not sapient beings with no hard evidence supporting any conclusions to the contrary. R*pe and murder and consent are the concerns of sapient beings only. Secondly humans are omnivores, it's biologically beneficial and arguably imperative in a truly natural environment, to eat meat. There is no biological imperative to attempt breeding with a species outside of our own in fact the results are pretty horrific. Morally and biologically there is no ground to stand upon for this position.
@@wills9392 So chimps are not animals? Cool. So animals can never r*pe like dolphins? We do not have to eat meat to survive or get protein so that argument falls flat as well. Also, sex is not only use for breeding humans do it all the time without producing an offspring. So why is it morally right to eat an animal but not copulate with it?
Insanity.
The difficulty with demonstrating sex work is wrong is that on its own it litterally comes across as just an opinion. Pope Francis mentioned this in one of his writings (can't remember which one). That certain truths can only be understood and accepted in light of other truths. For example, if you tell a person that knows nothing about religion that sex is for the consummation of the marital covenant that may sound very forgein to them. That's not to say that these things should not be preached, it just might not be the most effective way to convert people; although some might convert due to it. But rather our kerygma should be eclectic.
19:30 German population: ~ 83 M.
Swedish population: ~ 10 M.
Hi Lila, just a small question and I hope you answer it: are you born and brought a Catholic?
“Almost lost my cool there”
I watched the debate. Trent lost his cool on at least two occasions. And he was off balance every time Steven ( Destiny) spoke. Lila was again talking over everyone which is her way of debating. At least on the two debates I’ve seen her on. Both on Whatever.
When Steven and the other woman were asked questions they always answered. And truthfully. And explained why they thought the way they did. Lila and Trent never answered a direct question that was even slightly morally ambiguous. That is telling.
Steven has some confronting and difficult to understand views. He is aware of it and upfront on his views.
Trent and Lila are not. They cannot/will not answer questions without obfuscation.
Steven is live and let live. Trent and Lila want to control.
Personally I would not let people like Trent and Lila in control of my life. I would not/never want to live Steven’s lifestyle. But if I was asked who do I trust more. It would be Steven and the lady he was debating with. They were always transparent.
You can trust someone who is not telling you what to do and also gives information freely. Then doesn’t judge you for your decision.
I've been watching Trent Horn videos lately. I've known him before he got into UA-cam, but after watching him alot these days, I wondered if he has Jewish roots. Haha I thought right.
So how much money do I have to pay for you to answer for your integrity? How can you claim any moral high ground? It's a simple question: where's your apology to Brian Atlas? Or didn't he deserve one?
34:50 I appreciate Trent trying to keep his message open to people who are non-religious, but he assumes a porn user is necessarily someone who is aroused by violence and degradation.
By definition, they are. There is absolutely no love in pornography. All porn is degregading and violent.
@@martinciglenecki526 oh, well if language has no meaning anymore and porn = violence by definition then sure, porn users are aroused by violence lol
@g07denslicer well, how do you define an absence of love? Hate, right? Hatred of the good, which is an act of violence (not physical) towards the Good. Good of the other, yourself, and God. Am i missing something?
@@martinciglenecki526 But neutrality is also an absence of love, but I wouldn't call neutrality hate. It is just the absence of both love and hate.
And yeah, you are employing mental gymnastics in order to enlarge what anyone would mean by violence, so it includes non-violent porn.
If you want a word for something that is against Good, just use evil. I'll still disagree that porn is evil, but I wouldn't have a problem with your word usage.
I’d love to see the Catholic Ben Shapiro debate Ben Shapiro himself and show him Catholicism is the fulfillment of Judaism.
Am I the only one who thinks Trent here looks like Michael from GTA 5?
It’s nice to see how much Lila respects and learns from an experienced debater like Trent. She comes from a place of humility and it’s a breath of fresh air! You can really see their friendship shining!
Can we have a reaction video to the reaction video? Maybe on Trent’s pod?
As someone that is protestant considering Catholicism, I must say it is a bit of a strawman to say protestants assume many things when catholics seem to do just as well.
Don’t worry, Trent has said the same but I think his comment was more about what he was exposed to at the time
@@ABB14-11 That's fair.
Trent is unstoppable
Obviously I’m not expecting that they or I could have been able to act as perfectly as I’m about to suppose they could have, but here’s what I thought while watching.
When Destiny decided to take the hard stance on having sex with an animal being “better” than killing an animal that was a very important point to pivot on.
I think Trent did a good job grabbing the opportunity when she first said it. Trent obviously was taken back at first, but when Destiny doubled down and took a hard, hard stance on this, the veil was removed. I think Trent was still just in shock by the whole situation and by the way he said it depends, it depends and in different voices. He literally was just in shock and reasonably so.
At that point I think the most Christ like thing to have done would have been to excuse themselves from the debate, because Destiny is obviously a hurt individual and wasn’t in his right mind. Even if it wasn’t specifically just that moment he’s out of his mind, he was then. Again this is if they could have been Christ like, obviously from my humble opinion, they should have just left at that point.
It would have highlighted that point of the debate. It would have let the world acknowledge this was a crazy redline from people who understand ordered reality. It would have shown mercy to Destiny who very well is a lost confused ex Catholic, but maybe particularly lost that day.
We are 10.4 million in Sweden 😊 (as of 2021)
side question: will you be celebrating St. Lucy's day traditions? My family in the states does. It's one of our favorite Advent celebrations!
@@bluecomb5376 Yes we will! We even cheated a little and had a ”lucia tåg” (lucy procession) as part of mass last Sunday, but we will have it on the proper date (13th Dec) as well.
How lovely! My goal is to make lussekatter for the first time tomorrow for my own children! Should I add cardamom?! Happy celebrating! @@rootberg
@@bluecomb5376 I had to look it up, but seems like many swedish recepies add cardamum, so seems like a thing even though I dont think about cardamum when I think lussekatt. Saffron being the main spice. Good luck with your baking!
These 2 got destroyed in that debate.They just do not have The intelligence to debate with destiny
Without appealing to your religion, what makes an act moral or immoral?
I depends then on your own moral outlook. Either you value yourself above society, or you value society over yourself. You could boil it down to wherever ultimately does the least harm is moral.
Hello, I hope anyone will read that comment. It's not exactly about this debate, but I'm looking for some points on a wider debate of sexuality from Catholic/Christian point of view. So I was wondering, has anyone some thoughts about the phrase 'genital preference'? It gets thrown around a lot, and I honestly hate that phrase, but I can't explain it why. To me it's just kind of pornographic and reductive. But how to explain it to people who use this phrase as something normal/obvious? (they use if for example to explain why they might be gay or lesbian, or in the context that it is or isn't - depending who's speaking - 'transphobic' or whatnot, things like that.).
By the end of the debate it felt clear that there had been a subtle but continuous and accumulating force for Lila and Trent, where as the debate winds down Jazmin is fumbling around trying not to sound ridiculous about animals and destiny sitting on his hands quietly for the last 30 minutes. If they had paused right then and reread the topic of the debate and the positions they were defending as they down down the debate…. Pretty clear.
Jazmen was so study-happy that maybe destiny felt it would be overkill but in hindsight did destiny do anything at any point to advance his position? Mostly he played defense all debate… quibbling with definitions and language and trying to deflect Trent and Lila’s position without advocating for his own.
That left jazmen with the job of throwing papers in the air on random studies and porn positive facts that I didn’t find particularly persuasive in any way.
lol. What a cope
I love Trent and Lila, but I thought the debate was not at all productive. The arguments felt out of touch with the more core issues. As someone who went to middle school in 2012 where everyone started to obsessively watch PornHub, I don't think the "increased sexual assault" is at all compelling. If anything, it's the opposite problem where people watch so much porn that it's impossible to have meaningful in-person relationships. There's also the problem of being completely desensitized to normal arousement which in some ways is the opposite problem as increased violence. Porn has played a huge role in all the sexual deviance which again is primarily bad because it reduces the opportunities for meaningful relationships in the physical world
Trent Horn the GOAT
The problem with your attack on Destinys poly life style is that he actually doesnt advocate for it.
How does that change the calculus?
@@Qwerty-jy9mj because he was saying he has a problem with destiny promoting that lifestyle but he doesn't so it directly contradicts his statement
Destiny advocates for polyamory in principle. A culture that tolerates polyamory in principle leads to situations like Destiny's.
@@Scorned
But he does promote it. Is this what people refer to as gaslighting or what?
@Qwerty-jy9mj He's said multiple times that he doesn't adovate for it, and most people can't and probably shouldn't live that way. So that's not true.