The ubiquitous quote, “Healthy things growth” is true, but so do weeds. I feel a serious question was missed in this discussion. What does a healthy church look like biblically, regardless of ‘growth’?
That is a superb consideration. Jesus made the point of what comes of the tares. But the churches must turn back to growing earnest follower/disciples of Christ .
As a kids ministry director of a church, this may be the single best/most valuable podcast of late to watch. Thank you! In the church, we are a little confused as to what's going on in our culture and what to do about it. Generally speaking.
Eye opening regarding the numbers. I'm concerned about those who left with a pain point. Legalism, judgmentalism and rejection has pushed so many young people away..and then as you described the politization of c the church. We strayed from the simplicity of the gospel. May God change us and blow winds of mercy and revival on this generation. I say this as a parent who has seen so many disenchanted. How will we reach them ?
I had a chat with a family member over Christmas about Christianity. I asked him what belief system he found more beautiful, Christianity or Buddhism. He said Buddhism, hands down. He said the idea of humanity as a whole moving from ignorance into enlightenment is more beautiful than God separating humanity into two groups and abandoning one. Can't say I totally disagree with him...
At 42:00 re: the Mainstream De-churched Evangelicals, and the specific Missouri church who pursued this group of people local to them: How did they find and pursue this group? And how did Jim Davis pursue them?
I find this podcast somewhat concerning as it might lead one to believe the majority of people dechurching are doing so for largely banal reasons. The great dechurching of people (particularly aged 18-45) is baked in - and very much part of the current zeitgeist. The ubiquity of opposing viewpoints available through digital channels has placed Christianity squarely in the sights of critical evaluation by virtually anyone. Questions (and doubts) about the moral stipulations and internal coherence of the bible are commonplace today - in and out of the church. Now, Christianity has to compete in the western marketplace of ideas, and must provide real explanatory power to the issues and understandings of the modern world. The baked in tragedy is - there's little of the necessary due diligence being done to engage in a multi-vocal culture with competing narratives. Instead, the Evangelical church routinely finds itself stuck in 16th century early modernist thinking. Sadly, there's often retreat from inquiry and instead into doctrinaire positions whenever serious cross-examination occurs. This posture appears both disengenous and reactionary to those outside the church, and people see through it - particularly the generations coming up. On top of this, it's not unusual to see a capitulation mindset in the church, with an implicit abandoning of the current culture (and by extension, those in it). There are over 140 million Millenials and Gen Z. Until we do the heavy lifting of facing soberly the complexity of being a Christian in the age of the singularity, we won't have much to say to the new world. And people will keep leaving.
this is an insightful comment. The implication: we must welcome inquiry, in a non-defensive way. I would add that we not only have retreated to doctrinaire positions in the face of the ubiquitous critical evaluation, but also have retreated into an experience driven faith that replaces robust Christian worldview building with an emphasis on feelings - which don't stand up on the day of trial or temptation. I think the silver lining is that alongside the ubiquity of opposing viewpoints and criticism of Christianity, a golden age of Christian apologetics has arisen. The same online space that puts new atheist arguments in the hands of Gen Z also has spawned a cottage industry of robust, respectful, intellectually compelling responses to cross examination.
This was the grounding perspective I felt was omitted from this video discussion; which, unfortunately should have been the starting point. Unfortunately, in a way, if viewed from a macro perspective, I feel the modern American Church has a conflict of interest: desiring growth, while inadvertently deemphasizing what a healthy church looks like biblically outside of “numbers”. It seems to be a business model that could only grow authentically if attendees love truth, even if it is inconvenient for them socially. I appreciate you elucidating the core issue so thoroughly.
The problem is that many think the church is only the building where we get together. And that is one of the reasons sin is taked so lightly. WE ARE THE CHURCH AND OUR BODY IS THE TEMPLE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. (Acts 17:24-25 NKJV) Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. (1 Corinthians 3:16-17 NKJV) The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. (Colossians 1:15, 18 NIV)
The ubiquitous quote, “Healthy things growth” is true, but so do weeds. I feel a serious question was missed in this discussion.
What does a healthy church look like biblically, regardless of ‘growth’?
That is a superb consideration. Jesus made the point of what comes of the tares. But the churches must turn back to growing earnest follower/disciples of Christ .
The numbers are staggering. Thank God for the remnant.
As a kids ministry director of a church, this may be the single best/most valuable podcast of late to watch. Thank you!
In the church, we are a little confused as to what's going on in our culture and what to do about it. Generally speaking.
Eye opening regarding the numbers. I'm concerned about those who left with a pain point. Legalism, judgmentalism and rejection has pushed so many young people away..and then as you described the politization of c the church. We strayed from the simplicity of the gospel. May God change us and blow winds of mercy and revival on this generation. I say this as a parent who has seen so many disenchanted. How will we reach them ?
I had a chat with a family member over Christmas about Christianity. I asked him what belief system he found more beautiful, Christianity or Buddhism. He said Buddhism, hands down. He said the idea of humanity as a whole moving from ignorance into enlightenment is more beautiful than God separating humanity into two groups and abandoning one. Can't say I totally disagree with him...
Great insights! Thanks for sharing this interview!
At 42:00 re: the Mainstream De-churched Evangelicals, and the specific Missouri church who pursued this group of people local to them: How did they find and pursue this group? And how did Jim Davis pursue them?
I find this podcast somewhat concerning as it might lead one to believe the majority of people dechurching are doing so for largely banal reasons.
The great dechurching of people (particularly aged 18-45) is baked in - and very much part of the current zeitgeist. The ubiquity of opposing viewpoints available through digital channels has placed Christianity squarely in the sights of critical evaluation by virtually anyone.
Questions (and doubts) about the moral stipulations and internal coherence of the bible are commonplace today - in and out of the church.
Now, Christianity has to compete in the western marketplace of ideas, and must provide real explanatory power to the issues and understandings of the modern world.
The baked in tragedy is - there's little of the necessary due diligence being done to engage in a multi-vocal culture with competing narratives. Instead, the Evangelical church routinely finds itself stuck in 16th century early modernist thinking. Sadly, there's often retreat from inquiry and instead into doctrinaire positions whenever serious cross-examination occurs. This posture appears both disengenous and reactionary to those outside the church, and people see through it - particularly the generations coming up.
On top of this, it's not unusual to see a capitulation mindset in the church, with an implicit abandoning of the current culture (and by extension, those in it).
There are over 140 million Millenials and Gen Z. Until we do the heavy lifting of facing soberly the complexity of being a Christian in the age of the singularity, we won't have much to say to the new world. And people will keep leaving.
this is an insightful comment. The implication: we must welcome inquiry, in a non-defensive way. I would add that we not only have retreated to doctrinaire positions in the face of the ubiquitous critical evaluation, but also have retreated into an experience driven faith that replaces robust Christian worldview building with an emphasis on feelings - which don't stand up on the day of trial or temptation.
I think the silver lining is that alongside the ubiquity of opposing viewpoints and criticism of Christianity, a golden age of Christian apologetics has arisen. The same online space that puts new atheist arguments in the hands of Gen Z also has spawned a cottage industry of robust, respectful, intellectually compelling responses to cross examination.
This was the grounding perspective I felt was omitted from this video discussion; which, unfortunately should have been the starting point.
Unfortunately, in a way, if viewed from a macro perspective, I feel the modern American Church has a conflict of interest: desiring growth, while inadvertently deemphasizing what a healthy church looks like biblically outside of “numbers”.
It seems to be a business model that could only grow authentically if attendees love truth, even if it is inconvenient for them socially. I appreciate you elucidating the core issue so thoroughly.
It is a sad trend. May the Lord help us turn "the ship" around as HE leads us... and corrects us. Peace all. Carl - The Well of Nashville.
I'm a follower of Yeshua, Jesus, ex vangelical that is anti political syncretism
You make no sense, your words give you up, you are an uninformed and ignorant religious individual, huge problem in churches.
The problem is that many think the church is only the building where we get together. And that is one of the reasons sin is taked so lightly.
WE ARE THE CHURCH AND OUR BODY IS THE TEMPLE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.
God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. (Acts 17:24-25 NKJV)
Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. (1 Corinthians 3:16-17 NKJV)
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. (Colossians 1:15, 18 NIV)
big Garfield fan
Sorry. Two guys with church-y voices. That’s not real.