The REAL Reason Alloytec V6's suffer timing chain issues!
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- Опубліковано 22 сер 2024
- I could be wrong but I believe this is the reason Alloytec's suffer timing chain issues.
I've done heaps of these engines and have found the same symptoms on all engines.
You hit the nail on the head there bud. I've been running my own shop for many years and have seen countless of these engines go the way of the dodo - always the same issue with excessive sludge build up and I might add that as a low friction motor, they are designed to accommodate more blow by than the average other engine (because low friction means less tension on the piston rings among other things). The extra blow by means the oil gets dirtier quicker and needs to be replaced more often than 15,000 km. I tell my customers that it needs to be done every 10,000 max with only full synthetic oil. And as you said the extra blow by causes extra carbon rich gases that need to be vented and often can't be effectively and therefore causes carbon deposit build-up.
hey mate wheres your shop? and is there any way to clean/ get rid of the carbon deposit build up?
Same with the 3.0 v6?
Is it possible to rebuild with different rings and correct the problem or would it cause other engine control problems
If mutable timing cam left and right don't Mach at the same time on the main chain. What would happen. ? Strech
Software ware or hardware?
I heard the design engineers specified a better chain but gm thought they could save coin by using old mongoose bmx chain
🤔
I love this
Hahahaha actually made me lol
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 I heard huffy bikes sho knows 🤘🏽🤷♂️😁
Target bike chain
I’m gonna do it right now, as a mechanical fitter that makes perfect sense.
Bought mine from new, each 10,000 I drop oil and filter, and administer a good quality injection cleaner every service.
It’s done 282 and still runs like the day I got it with the original timing chains😉
This is excellent advice!!!😉😉👍🇦🇺
I'm sorry did you say that you change the oil every 10,000 km (6,000 mi.)? That's about how frequent I've been doing the oil on my GMC Canyon which is what's recommended in the owner's manual and I'm finding my engine being rebuilt with 162,000 km (102,000 mi.) Same side of the engine too.
I have a 2010 SV6 ute from new, 470,000 klm on the clock 80% Driving in Sydney traffic, change full synthetic oil before 7,000 klm, every time, change oil filter every second time. Engine has never had a problem, just a water pump replaced at 380,000klm.
I read somewhere they made an update to the engine from 2010 onwards and are much better
Slightlymissespelt correct the LFX engine doesn’t suffer from timing chain issues anymore and is a good solid engine
@@c.g1999 LFX didn't come out until 2011 Series 2 commodores. Sun Rise most likely has a LLT motor - they still have a mirror image PCV system and block design so suffer sluge and thus oil degradation issues, and having SIDI is worse than older LY7 motors as there is no port fuel injectors to keep the intake valves clean
The reason one bank is dirtier than the other is because there is a dirty side and fresh air side. It is there to keep fresh metered air flowing through the crankcase. Fresh, clean air comes in the left bank and then flows through the crankcase and out the right bank valve cover orifice to be burned in the intake manifold.
I usually see the timing chain issues on more poorly maintained engines. The chains get hot and stretch and the tensioners get starved of oil from the low oil levels.
Moral of the story, change your oil sooner than the oil life monitor says. We had some of the R/V body vehicles that were going 12,000 miles before the oil life monitor told them to change their oil! GM later had a recall to reprogram the ECM to lower the interval. But I still wouldn’t ever go over 5k miles per oil change.
I was going to say the same thing. Fresh air is drawn in the front valve cover, through the crankcase and out the rear valve cover/pcv system. The fix would be to have fresh air brought into both valve covers and the vacuum for the pcv system moved to maybe the intake manifold or a dedicated port in the top of the crankcase area. Even old carbureted V8's suffered from this if they had a fresh air filter in one valve cover and a pcv valve in the other. Pontiac V8's from the '60's and '70s had the pcv valve in the push rod valley cover under the intake manifold and some engines like the Buick Big Block had a port in the back of the actual intake manifold as it sealed the push rod valley. It's like the net generation of engineers forgets the lessons learned by the previous ones.
I change mt oil every 3,000 miles once in awhile I'll let go to 3,500 but never move than that. I run full synthetic either Castrol or Valvoline High mileage. I use STP filter. Bought the car with 92k and just went over 155k I just replaced the spark plugs one coil pack valve cover gaskets and spark plug seals. Cleaned the intake and throttle body. Might get another 70k out of it hopefully more
Did an ignition coil change and I am glad I checked this at the same time. Plastic pipe from the pcv valve and Inlets on the plenum were completely blocked which I cleaned out carefully with a drill bit and a good dousing of brake clean. Thanks for the video, far out.
i replaced the plastic pip[e with high temp hose...and replaced the plastic inlets on the plenum with brass ones..
Thanks for the tip, I'm gonna double check mine
Remove till regeo
I agree that the Alloytec is bloody good engine! I have had one for well over 7 years and done over 330,000km on it. It has always been serviced regularly with Penrite HPR5 full synthetic oil and the filter changed every service. Every engine has it's faults but from my experience the issues are minor. The biggest problem I had with mine was the water pump leaking but that was an easy fix.
Penrite HPR5 that's a really good full synthetic motor oil i agree.
Just bought a VZ wagon that needed a timing chain. Got the timing kit, inlet gasket kit and timing cover gaskets kit online for under $500. Did the job myself on a weekend. Cleaned out the rocker covers and PCV lines while it was apart. She’s good for service again now. They’re a pretty well designed and packaged engine. Better gasketed and more modern engineering than the old mangers.
3.8L buick no trouble
Shit bro where did you manage to find that kit for $500...
@@occy6763amazon, I just did ons...
really appreciate this,,i'm a mechanic and have replaced the thermostat in a few,,stupind place to put a t stat,,,,i just bought a commodore with the LE0 engine,,with 270000ks,,youve given me hope ,it started with a little chain / low oil pressure noise,,youve deffinently found the solution to the problem,,,terrific info,,thank you
G'day mate, love your accent & your attitude to poor engineering. (bye bye engine LMAO) it's about time we got a fairdinkum Ausie to give it straight and with a fix for the problem. Good onya pal.
Blue Rock ha ha... thanks mate. Thr accent was a little put on for the vid, but my attitude is still the same! 😂
should i buy vz
I have a VZ One Tonner and has the v6 Alloytec and it is very reliable, just do an oil service every 5000Km and use good oil, I'm up to 264000Km on the clock and it still runs great. The most recent thing I replaced on it was the oil pressure switch and that was only $30 dollars and 10 minutes later to replace :)
Have you ever had to replace the timing chain?
J C did you ever get engine codes come up? Thanks
Excellent job at explaining the truth (not just your theory). I am a ford guy here in the U.S. (Arizona), but I fix chevys most of the time. I always hated Cadillac. I am doing a top end job on a 2005 srx 3.6 and it has bent valves, broken sprockets/ phasers on the right side of the engine. What the crap? Good for me, I get to make money off of a bad design NOT FAIR FOR THE CONSUMER. thanks for the video and keep up the good work. God bless
Funny you should say that , im a Chevy guy and ive made my living off of the Fords & Dodge !
Especially the valve train on the newer Dodge V6 & V8 ..
@@shobud7561 well anything Chrysler related it not going to last 🤣 I'm a die hard ford guy but if I had to pick any other american brand it would be GM
I run diesel oil in mine 5/30 you would swear that the oil filter is brand new every time I changed it cleans the motor absolutely beautiful never had a problem
Recently retired a VZ holden alloytec with 460,000km and it was still running sweet. Never even had the rocker covers off. The secret is NEVER miss a service and always use quality oil & filters.
Just took mine out this morning. It was completely blocked. Drilled bigger holes into the pcv valve and now the engine runs very cool and has WAY better throttle response
So drill out the bottom holes
@@MrColeman631 Yes also do them
This is the most comprehensive explanation pertaining to the issues these engines exhibit I've heard yet! I cleaned and cleared the buildup in my PCV for my 2010 Traverse about 3 months before I got the dreaded timing code. I now have it almost completely torn down and ready to explore. Better believe I'll be replacing the PCV with a wider breather setup!
How did it go? What did you replace?
@@BobbyFincher-us3dr I am embarrassed to admit that she is still torn apart waiting to be reassembled in my garage. Being a small business owner and full time student makes time a precious commodity. As far as I can tell, everything looks good. The old chains were stretched slightly so I am hoping the new chains will do the trick. I recently bought a scope to I could peak down the intake chambers and to the crankshaft to make sure everything was good and noticed heavy buildup of carbon on every single intake and exhaust valve and I am trying to figure out how to clean them up without having to remove the heads, which will only delay things further.
@@jamesberreth7171do i engine flush with liqui Molly than drop oil pan and clean the oil pickup where the gunk builds up and fill back up with oil
Some re-engineering would be interesting. For example, cut a hole in the top of the other cam cover and add a threaded tube fitting with a nut on either side and a couple of fiber washers. . Run a 25mm breather line over and connect it into to the other larger breather line on the other rocker cover. It'd be an interesting hack experiment to try to fix an engineering fail.
Great video. I'm off to drill out the PCV and check the covers for sludge. My wagon gets an oil/filter change every 5000km (it's near 275,000km). And even though I spend a fortune on good oil and filters, it's still jet black at it's end (none burnt). Now I understand why. Next oil change, I'm giving the PCV an 'attitude adjustment' and checking the heads for sludge. Subscribed!
So how did it go ??
@@deongoode1351 Sorry for the slow response Deon. The PCV valve was completely clogged on one side (I still have it, but I don't know where to post the pic) the inside of the valve was gummy, all the hoses anywhere near it were all gummed up. I replaced the lot, the valve was cheapest at $40 (from Canada) drilled out the top and bottom. The hoses were a different story. The one that goes around the back was $40, and the main one was $100, both genuine (if you know a mate who knows a mate, Jesus help me!)
Seeing as I went to all this trouble, I also put not one, but TWO catch cans in the loop, and, with great fear and trepidation, put it in for and engine flush (knowing that it might F&%k all the seals).... The greatly feared, "That timing chain rattle when I first start the car noise that tells me my VZ is FUBAR soon" noise has gone from 'not quite a second long' to barely noticeable. It's still there, but my local Holden (now KIA) dealer has gone from, "Your timing chain guldes need doing" to, "What the fook did you do?"
That 'start-up rattle' is how you know how close you're about to engine death. Some people that have a lighter right foot might get an engine code warning, but not many
Hi there, can you please do a follow up video on how you solved the problem.
You have shown us the problem and now we need the solution
there is only one solution, preventative maintaince .
lack of on time servicing is a death warrent for these engines
Tell me about it, I stupidly let it go a few thousand km’s over its service no my check engine light is showing code for stretched timing chain!!! I’m filthy with myself.. now every company wants a fortune to replace it. Wish I could DIY it myself.. company’s want a $1000 minimum just for parts and a whole days labour and that’s without any gears or sump seals . I’m in a real pickle, my bad!!!
Drill modifying the PCV orifice is the first thing to do on the vacuum side of the motor to match later LFX motors increase in size of the holes from factory. passengers side clean air inlet tube from between MAF sensor and Throttle body MUST be left alone. I would be very careful and don't take the advice from this video to plumb both rockers into a catch can or atmosphere - that silly suggestions stagnates the crankcase making it worse - as in 1940's illegal draft tube type of WORSE, modifying crankcase plumbing function is also illegal, it has to work in the form of inlet/outlet for Positive Crankcase Displacement Ventilation, maintaining slight vacuum at idle and cruise
@@Matt-wt9qd Don't keep driving it with that code , my neighbour did and he jumped teeth and bent his valves.
@@Matt-wt9qd When you get the new timing chain make sure to use a catch can off that pcv valve on the right side rocker cover.
You know, I've been on here for years. Spent a lot of time in South Africa, been around a few Aussies. From my experience, there are more honest, fun Loving, truth seeking Australian people per capita than anywhere else in the world.
What I've just written may seem a little bit extreme, but I'm from California I love the truth come what do you think the fires are blazing, there man-made and there are so many truth lovers on the pioneering Spirit California West coast it's not even funny. Thank you, your GREAT! John from Noblesville.
Crank case ventilation in these engines is a problem yes, but its got nothing to do with wear on the chains .
The stretch wear on the chains has more to do with inferior chains and guides and the fact that they are too small to do the job long term.
In fact the biggest single reason for the stretch is the fact the engine is a V6 configuration and the four single camshafts with three sets of lobes will snatch back and forth three times each turn.
Couple that with four cams all doing this snatching puts extreme conditions on the chains, guides and the tensioners .
The shit that forms from the poor ventilation can block the check ball valves in the adjusters and stop the adjusters from locking up with hydraulic pressure and thus the adjusters and guides are pulsating with the camshafts snatching and is acting on the ratchet locks of the adjuster and eventually over time will flog the whole mechanism leading to codes coming up in the early stages followed by noisy operation and ultimately catastrophic engine failure in the form of bent valves, broken rockers and stretched or broken camshaft caps and bolts.
Now if this engine with four camshafts was a V8 or V10 then this snatching tendency is massively reduced and in the extreme other end if the engine was an inline six single cam of old, then there is next to no bouncing as there is load coming on and off the cam at any given time and the only real load will be the total drag imposed bu the springs and friction.
Hope everyone can see the correlation with what I am saying here.
Ultimately the underlying fact here is --
the chains, guides and adjusters is too complex under done in sizing for the job required .
So best to avoid a car with this engine or is there after market solution?
@@kenezos There's plenty of aftermarket replacement components but they do not fix the potential failures nor the design problem.
But I would not necessarily stay away from this engine because of the cam drive issues as it is a very good engine.
People must service the oil and oil filter regularly and definitely not at 15000 km intervals, that is sheer lunacy on GM'S behalf.
If GM had of increased the engine oil capacity and doubled the size of the oil filter and started off with the latter chain and guides, then just about all the problems would not have come about.
That and making sure the ventilation system was clean and functioning properly
@@ScatManAust we used to own a 2010 ve sv6 wagon which was a nice car. However when driving once there was a noise from the engine and couldn’t figure it out. One incompetent mechanic straight away said it was timing chain. It wasn’t. I found that the dip stick showed no oil. No dash light nothing. So this thing was running dry for who knows how long before the noise started. I took it to the stealer who started a case with head office. I had to go to the stealer every 3 weeks for a top up. I knew holden wouldn’t do anything so we got rid of it. It totally put me off. Having said that , I’m looking for a daily driver. I like VF Calais but worry if I’ll have issues, as the previous owner would of just done log book service. So yeah, I don’t know what to do 🤷🏻♂️
Your conclusion sounds about right.
I have a 2005 vz sv6 commodore Ute it sais they have a wider timing chain before they made them thinner in 2006 does that make it any better or is it no good
Every V type engine will have a cleaner side, and a dirtier side. It is caused by the clean air entering on the breather side, and heats up(and is mixed with blowby gasses) as its drawn through the crankcase to the PCV(vacuum) side. Regular oil changes, and PCV inspection/ cleaning will reduce this effect greatly. If you change the orifice size you will usually cause a driveability issue. Change your oil every 3,000 miles, not every 6-10,000 like recommended. Just my 2 pennies to think about.
Hey Mitch that makes good sense to me. Wonder why they don't have a breather to both banks? I just bought a VZ I'll be having a look at the PVC and clean it SAP!
@@jabax999 They draught clean air across the motor, from left bank where the large hose is through the case and out through the PCV out the right bank.
Richard Skipper You drilled out the holes on the pcv valve with no issues? No cel?
hes saying every 10,000 Kilometers not miles
Sounds like nevvile bartos, your onto something but
"Chopper, there's no cash here. Here, no cash."
Ethan Batt he’s fuckin flying
Hahahahaha fuck yes you nailed it.
Cash no
@@willfuller8436 Look at me mate im flyin. I. Fuckin flyin.
CLEAN THE PCV VALVE AND KEEP IT CLEAN...Thanks proflowfab for the talk and video on these engines (i just bought a VZ after owning a VT for 5 years) I'll be doing it SAP! If nothing else it's a wake up call to keep the PCV valve clean at least. Mitchs comment that the clean air is drawn in the side that ends up relatively clean side and the dirty side has the PCV valve which draws out the air circulated through the engine is a very good one I reckon. So if the PCV valve is blocked the sour air in the crank case can't get out and circulation of air is stopped. So I think proflowfab you've not got it right to remove the PCV valve because this draws out the air/gas inside the engine and I think helps keep the engine somewhat clean. The one you show looks like it was probably blocked for a long time maybe causing the issue of dirty bank 2. proflowfab you say you've done a lot engines, have you usually found the PCVs blocked? I doubt if this could cause the chain problems alone. Seems good servicing will help against poor GM materials and poor design. (I am a qualified mechanical engineer [mechanic]) but got out the trade after my apprenticeship to go off and play rock n roll for a living, did I say a living? Lucky I had a good wife who had a good day job!
john b.
Nice one mate. Very informative about what is actually causing the failure of the timing chains on these engines.
Ive been told due to poor ventilation and heat build up stretches them
You do have a point, but. Take an ecotec timing chain and compare the two. ecotec chain is very short and fairly solid. Alloytec chains are very long and lighter weight construction; even GM themselves said they are light weight (this was to limit valve train mass). I have worked on too many 20 + year old holden V6 engines that have hone 20,000KM since last oil change and are even on oil filter bypass due to clogged filter and not seen t/chain issues. The longer the chain is the more solid and resistant to wear they need to be. Mitsubishi Astron II 2.6 L 4 cyl had terrible T/chain wear issues for the same reason; in fact I still identify an Astron II by the T/chain rattle before I even see the car.
Thank you! Thank you! Finally someone who knows what they are talking about
Also they are a engine that was originally designed for the Daewoo Captiva as a East West and slightly tilted back to help oil feed and drain back down the right side head as that is the side which sits next to the firewall. It's just Holden being cheap and not developing the engine to suit a North South layout. Thanks for the video I never noticed the difference in the heads.
If you just kept it old school and change your oil every 3000 miles, you probably wouldn't end up with that issue. I have zero faith in the oil life monitoring systems. And this is coming from a 20-year GM technician
Oil monitoring systems are basically engine hour meters aren't they? Serious question, I have no idea how they work.
GM hasn't ever released what they base it off of but im assuming (based off my experience as a technician) they use an algorithm based off of multiple factors such as, Run time, Temperature, Speed, and RPM.
@@chicanobluesaz4191 Cool, thanks for the reply. So there are 'smarts' behind the service light.
@@rayg9069 On some.
You cant just base it off 10,000km.
If you drive it like you stole it 10,000km would be too much, the oil would've burnt up.
Same if you do a lot of cold starts
Tow a lot as the extra load will cause more heat for the oil.
So many factors.
We just don't have the exact algorithm they use as in s+a+hXc/$=oil change
chicano--- I agree with you 100%. oil is cheap, engines are not. I own and run a shop, we advise 3k mile lof. anything more, don't cry to me when it breaks.
Gunks up when they use wrong oil or don't service regularly, pcv system is fine when it runs properly, mines done over 350 000km & she doesn't miss a beat, runs great. I ALWAYS use a high quality full synth & change that oil every 6 mths or soon as it starts to look blacker than i like it to, oil change! Frequent oil changes with a high quality full synth engine oil is the best investment for engine longevity i think, especially with alloytecs.
I'm older and don't drive my VZ much, so I thought the oil'd be OK. After 12 months, it was sludge. 6 month oil changes and the car runs perfect now. Redone breaks, suspension and lowered, radiator, tailshaft, with added catback exhaust, fat low profile tyres with 18 inch Holden mags, and (by the previous owner) a body kit that I've variously been told is Tom Walkinshaw and HSV original (but really, I don't know or care other than I like it), I'm also told it was chipped, and finally just painted matt black also helps. Sure, I put more money into my car than it's worth, but if it's the last car I'm ever going to own, then WGF? It's not an absolute dream to drive, but it's mine and it's better than the HZ and HR, HQ's, HJ and Austin 1800 before it. To drive, it's the best and last car I'll ever have. I like my VZ Alloytec, and the Ecoteckers with their chip on their shoulder can go flail themselves.
From a fellow VZer that cops the flack from his ECO mates, I think I couldn’t have said it better myself. Early oil changes and the ECO mob can go jump🤣
That's GOLD mate, my mums just done her vz injector fkup and rhe mechanics telling her $5000 for an engine replacement, calling it timing chain malfunction. Don't worry thats not gunna happen I'll be driving 1000km and do a it myself b4 that happens... but come on we need more of your attitude buddy and good call. Im gunna drill it out and put a moisture catch on maybe 4inch elbow joint or something.
Although both banks on my 175k miles 08 CTS DI motor looked pretty clean during a recent valve cover gasket replacement, this is an interesting theory because I believe the P0008 DTC is the most common indicator of possible timing chain trouble here in the U.S. and that code references the right bank (passenger side in a rear drive car U.S. car). The difficulty I have with the theory is that all 4 cam phasers are exposed to the same environment and as a result I would expect a more random appearing related code setting.
The appearance of the troubled side of the engine in this demo makes me curious about the role high engine oil temps could be playing in all of this as that's one of the significant benefits that full synthetic oil has along with its detergents. Perhaps two additional oil squirters spraying, one on each cam chain along with an engine oil cooler holding temps to 180-200 deg may be the ultimate solution as engine oil runs hotter than the coolant temps and is the reason that some cars use engine coolant to keep the engine oil temps in check. I've measured oil temps on a non DOHC V6 as high as 240 degrees during Summer low speed city driving and I know it gets hotter than that. A chain with a good bit of heat in it has a lot of stretching ability if it's already long and on the small side as the lower the metal density the lower the heat capacity and the greater the ability to expand and distort.
I believe a good engine oil cooler will help this situation as well.
The breather isn't the issue. The issue is the breakdown of the oil. This engine requires oil changes at lower intervals, e.g. 5000 miles. That would cure all the problems.
I changed my oil every 5-7,000 km, with synthetic oil, and i STILL got this issue at only 72,000 miles, I drove pretty hard and have concerns my oil levels were lower than they should have been, actually once I had way more oil that I should have had, because a lube shop was doing it.
Definitely they didn't change the oil on time. Thats very abused looking engine, even if we look at the cleaner part....
still need to clean PCV though, should be cleaned every oil change or at least every 2 using carby cleaner & high pressure air until all clear, once you do it regulary its an easy quick job.
I have a stock as a rock VZ V6 190kw 2004, When I bought it second hand for 3k (200,000kms) I had not done any research into this engine and just got it relying on Commodores reliability and I also loved the look of the VZs. I have since googled and You Tubed it and now wonder when mine is going to go boom. I have also noticed that there are hardly any VZ's 190kw on the road. Since owning mine I have seen 2, and that was for sale on Gumtree.
PerthWA Random Videos paid 5k for mine, 10,000kms later the timing chains needed replacing, didn't do my research either 😒
Theres about 10 in the city i live in.
I have a 190kw 2006 Adventra (same engine) - they're great, you just have to look after them. I see plenty of 190kw SV6s as well. Also, your engine is probably safe from the major timing chain issues, because it was the late 05/early 06 engines that had the modified (thinner) timing chains
270,000km on mine and no problems. Serviced every 5,000km. Will check the PCV now. Thanks.
Good call with the changing oil at more like 5000 ks , my daughter bought a ve second hand and I'm doing my research ! Good forum man and the crank case vent is something I'll change out ! Thanks !
Theres no ventilation here... Here no ventilation... ventilation? No.
Hahaha not too many people would get that
awesome.
Dave S. Robbo? No Ventilation.
Cash lots of cash here though
Nope no ventilation here
Now look what it's gone and done... Ya mothers all upset.
Yes the main problem is the small holes in the PVC valve.
Lurv this guy. He convinced me with crystal-clear logic and demonstration. I got two Rodeo's. Tomorrow I "piss the damn PCV's off!' Onya dude. Mozzman
Do you just remove that valve and not put anything in its place?
folks change ya oil member oil is cheap engines are not
Why can't the stupid engineers figure this out and modify these engines? Why do owners have to be smart enough to do all of this? The GM 3.1 and 3.8 liter engines were bullet proof and lasted 300k miles and did NOT require ANY modification. Thanks for your explanation. I still don't feel I should have to do this. GM should of fixed this a LONG time ago. Does anyone know if this still the same with the new 2020 and 2021 engines?
Gm 3.1l is known to need a lower intake manifold gasket before 100k miles lol, so not sure if you are 100% informed on the gm v6 60° engines, mostly due to DeX-cool Edited:(Not a modification but still a major problem/flaw that most gm 3.1L owners have had to deal with at some point in time
@@recklessclient5304 I tell u what. Yes, I had to change the intake manifold gaskets before 100k miles. It wasnt due to Dexcool since my engine takes green antifreeze. All the old V6s had the same issue. My engine is currently at 298k miles and never been opened up since. Still purrs like it did at 20k miles. Bullet proof. They make garbage V6
engines today compared to the old withr DOHC weak timing chain systems that need the engine dropped out by 100k for major surgery. Talk to the mechanics, they will tell u the same thing.
there is a new redesigned valve cover gasket for that bank to address some of the oil use issues with that pcv setup ..
Isn't there a SB to drill out the pcv valve out to a bigger whole? This has to be the main problem. Whos ridiculous idea was a 1mm whole to vent crank case pressure?
@@JDJD-mw9rr if you buy a new one, it should be already updated and they are cheaper than buying a drill or the specified size bits. But if you have a drill and bits already then its a free mod.
@@DaBuGzLiFe i don't even have this motor, it was just interesting to me
I believe you are on the right track with this issue, but oil brand has a lot to do with this as well. Back in the 1960's my father worked as an engineer with BP. This was before BP owned Castrol, BP's oils were very good back then made with Venusvalian light crude mostly. When I was in my teens 1970's I was into high revving high horsepower 6 cylinder Holden engines taking great pleasure knocking off many V8's with pickup and top speed. At the time of rebuilding my second engine I asked Dad what oil would give me the best engine life. His advice was this, any good quality 20/50 oil with a viscosity improver (summer temps sometimes hit 48C) but don't use Castrol. In his experience every engine he had ever worked on large or small that had consistently used Castrol ended up with hard shellac deposits in the engine, so I stayed away from Castrol. In 2001 I was working in a garage and a mature aged widow came in with a toyota corolla saying her oil light was staying on, her late husband had always looked after the car. We did the proper checks and determined the oil sender in the cam shaft oil supply was at fault, replaced it and all was good. One week later she was back with the same issue. The boss said take the sump off and check the pickup. With the sump off we could see the pickup was almost blocked and there was hard shellac deposits covering the strainer and every surface that did not spin.
It took me more than 40 minutes with a wire bush to clean the strainer and another hour to clean the sump, later I filled the sump with $10 oil and a good engine flush and ran it for 30 minutes. Drained it changed the filter and refilled with $10 oil again and drove it for about 10km, drained it and changed the filter again and filled with Mobile oil we used in the workshop.
When the lady returned I asked her did she know what oil her husband had been using? Her answer.... He only ever used Castrol!!!
Hand on heart .. true story!
I have always use the best oil I could afford, Mobile 1 if I can, sometimes I use additives, never exceed 10,000Km + filter oil changes and in the last 40 years have never had any engine that was dirty inside. Given proflowfab has sighted this issue with timing chains and some Alloytech's have 250000 + km's on the engines and on issues my guess is that is also an oil quality issue, but I will be checking out the vent hole on my recently purchased VE asap.
Hi pro fab im doing timing chain on ve only 85k how much endplay do you think acceptable on idler pulley. I bought a kit without gears and the gears I've got have about
.8mm endplay. What do you think cheers
THANKS FOR KEEPING IT SIMPLE AND VERY CLEAR SIMPLE FIX!!
The oil filter on this engine is too small in capacity in my opinion. Change half way through your oil change intervals to keep gunk from forming. 6000k max full synthetic + 3000k oil filter change outs.
Because the oil filter is on top it's easy and non messy.
Ahah plot twist. Try and change an alloytec oil filter in a Rodeo then you will know what true pain is.
This really reminds me of the 4.6L northstar, great engine murdered by an engineering flaw...a fixable one at that....but neither should have their flaw....
GM is the flaw
I think the head bolts were to short on the older 4.6 norstars.
fat cat my mechanic refers to them as “deathstar” engines
thank you for this explanation. i just bought a VE 2011 3.0 lt ( 235,000 KM ) and will be taking your advice .
Mine has +200,000 miles and yes evap system is not the greatest. Still pushing 307 HP and torque around 300! Thanks for the video, the 3.6L high feature engines from 2008 Cadillac CTS are crazy good. 0-60 mph in 3.9 seconds faster than most caddy V's!
lol, I doubt faster than a V seriously but my 2009 CTS is a great car for sure
someone needs to come up with a double roller timing chain for these. double the chain like the oldschool v8 and 4.3l engines
Hands Down The Best Description of this engine !! Keep up the great work mate!
I bought my VE SV6 07 model about a year ago now as my first car, the amount of people that tell me that engines are crap etc. So far the cars done almost 140000km, oil change every 7-8000km. To sum it up, the lack of care for the car is what does it.
The VZ SV6 had the same Alloytec LY7 motor but you never hear any issues from them.
Thanks for the video ill make sure to go check my rocket covers next time I do a service!
Finally someone who’s sounds like they know what their talking about. Cheers mate ! Pulled my pcv out and it was completely blocked! Not game enough to pull the cover off. Big thumbs up for the info 👍
Glad we could help.
You say to just piss it off. Would it be better to drill one decent hole all the way through or do you think what I done will be fine? I’ll be checking that that pvc at least once a month.. forgot to mention that I drilled all three holes bigger.
Genius!! You are spot on and entirely correct...thank you!!!
I'll agree with that it is a contributing factor but there are others that may contribute an even greater part- 1. Engines run too hot now days to burn off HC and that causes premature wear on the nylon/plastic guides. 2. The chain isn't finished smooth on the links so the sharp edges cut into the guides. 3. The chain is made of an inferior material and wears/stretches too fast. GM's problems usually don't lie with the engineers. It usually lies with the bean counters cutting cost and quality of the materials that are used in the design. Too bad, really, It's a strong running engine that could last a long time. Still can if rapid revving of the engine is avoided(bad on the guides and chain stretch) and synthetic oil(reduces wear on inferior parts) is used. Still plan on putting at least one chain in this engine during it's lifetime if you own one.
2014 Acadia with 153,000 miles. Am I at risk????
@@UNITED2009100 Surprised you're not dead already!!!!
Here... there's no ventilation... robbo?? No ventilation here mate
great vid mate.straight to the point no bs.. after watching alot of theses vids saying the same thing, i pulled mine apart.. 2005 vz alloytec i brought when it had 50k on it. has 250k on it now. i change my oil every 3k with nulon semi synthetic 10w / 30. both side`s were very clean "golden in colour", great news for me. i did drill out the pcv vent to the biggest i could get it. the timing chain still looked new and is tight as f@#$. i have just started using nulon 5w / 30 full synthetic
This right here ! Dont believe what people are saying. The main reason these engines get timing case leaks is because people are servicing there cars every 15k and not bothering to routinely check the oil level . You're keeping everything clean by doing oil changes so frequently. I've seen some of these v6's come into my workshop with 400k on the clock and still running well.. just like with anything maintain it and it'll take care of you too.
Yes, I noticed the same thing under the valve covers, same with the pcv vent being plugged ....
Deleting the PCV System as you have suggested will make the oil gunking worse as the engine vacuum will not suck up vapours and moisture, you got it wrong too, MAF metered Air enters the Passenger side cover (the cleaner side you show)down through the engine and then exits the 1.5mm port up to the the two plenum vac ports while at idle / moderate throttle, only time any vapour will "vent" from the Passenger side larger port will be wide open throttle conditions which is like 1% of the time. Also Australia wide modifying a engines emissions to vent to atmosphere is illegal and will fuck with the metered air from the MAF sensor and will be technically a strange vacuum leak, a plumbed in oil catch can or cyclonic separator like on my LY7 on the vac side/pcv side is legal as it maintains vacuum, a vacuum sealed clean side separator on the passenger side could also be used.
Excellent explanation for the newer V6's with timing chins or oil pressure problems, glad my older 3800 II is in excellent nick (Oil + Filter every 6 months).
hey neville, here no cash, cash no ok... robbo? No cash.....
Very interesting. Thanks for advice. Was told to avoid a ute with this engine. Also plan to do oil on more regular basis than recommended.
Doing Line lockers on a standard alloytec isnt really good for the timing chain of any engine, let alone alloy tec. I dont give mine too much load, 50% maybe under overtake. Dont thrash the things, then break them, then call them bad. lol. Min is just coming up to 350,000 km (live deep in country) I service it every 50,000 lol and I have zero timing chain issues. I get a lot of blow by though turning up in my plenum and intake tubing. But again, I really go easy on her, and always warm her up till the auto choke lifts off. (approx 60C) and I take it real easy till shes full up to operating temps. Alloytecs are great. the bad thing is the lack of mods. Esp the type of mods that increase longevity and increase "Thrashability"
All V-type engines have this problem. Fresh air goes in one bank and crankcase vapors go out the other through the PCV valve. Therefore, the bank with the PCV valve will always have more sludge than the inlet bank.
My mum owns a holden crewman with an alloytec and its got roughly 390,000ks on it hasn't been serviced very regularly. I'd probably guess every 20,000 or more ks if that. She has daily driven it for work ever since buying it and it has only ever had one over heating problem. The electric fans not turning on due to a faulty fan relay. Good engine indeed. If you don't abuse it like a teenager it'll last over. 300ks maybe even 400ks if you service very regulary
Few years back I bought a 4 year old L98 with 80, 000 on it and a perfect service record and enjoyed putting another 80 or 90 on it but a mechanic warned me that no matter how big the sump and no matter that the oil is synthetic, 15,000 kays is WAY too far between changes esp. with modern, low clearance motors. I changed my oil every 5000 to 7500 and it still got more and more rattly and rough and these 300hp 3.6s are even more highly strung. I miss the power of that 6 litre but I believe if you need to use your engine hard it’s best if it’s a proven Japanese unit. Mining companies don’t send their workers in to the Australian or African desert in American or European vehicles, they send them in Landcruisers so they lose less workers.
You are CORRECT !! PCV system ?? naaah, its a restricted ORFICE that's SUPPOSED to ventilate the crank case pressure ;)There's an "updated" cover, here in the US, that ( I believe) is nothing more than a cover with a larger orifice hole.I HAVE drilled the orfice larger without creating fuel trim issues @ idle.Do they consume large quantities of oil over there too ?? !! LOL
Some pics and more details (PART #s ETC) would be very helpful mate !
Thanks for the vid bro, just got myself a 2009 VE commodore and a lot of people said about the timing chain problem and this video just solved it!
Hey dude....thanks to your information now im not to scared of buying VY 2 with a quad cam engine.
Thanks bud
All Vy is ecojet
Vz is alloyjet
Mate how do I piss the pcv off can u post a video on what should be done to correct this issue pleas tia
Ads Farr yes, because I'm sure removing it will throw a code and have a check engine light on
Keep calling him bad names
Drill it out to a bigger hole... works every time
Cadillac forums have multiple tabs on fixing this...basically; tap out the 3 hole in the pcv and add a cheapo catch can to it
@@demonqb9 Should/Can this be done on a 2013 3.6 ATS?
Good argument but you missed the most obvious problem with the timing system. It's a single row chain. It really needs to be double row.
The engine light issue on them is because the chain itself is not strong enough. It streches like hell and the management software detects the variation between crank angle and cam angle so it throws an engine light and a code.
Holden's fix was to allow more room in the software for the stretch. This was stupid. The point at which the light comes on with the software update is the point of failure for the chain. Many chains snap before the updated software tells you there is a problem.
Holden engineered the software update specifically to keep the engine light off for long enough that the engine was out of warranty before the light came on again. They put a bandaid on the boil and the bloody boil usually bursts after the warranty ended.
Alloytec owners need to start a class action against Holden for this. The motor is not fit for purpose and it never was. It does not and has never met anything close to the requirements of Australian consumer law in regards to the expected life of the engine.
Class Action, what are we Americans? I sue yo ass! :P But yeah, in regard Aussie Consumer law, Holden should offer a longer warranty on the engine repairs, much like Mitsi did with Magna 10 year powertrain warranty.
I watched this one a few months ago after swapping a new engine into my VZ. Almost considered taking the PCV out/modding it as per this video but didn't feel like I knew enough about it and didn't want to bugger anything up. Well, it just died last week due to the timing chain. Rocker cover terrible on the driver side and PCV valve fully blocked.
If you've got an Alloytec, do something about the PCV if you want it to last.
it's recommended to clean/replace every service, I just purchased my ve and have just now blown out the pcv valve, it was gunked up
Thanks bloke.Simply put .Sensible analysis.
the fixed the colouring by using diesel oil and drilling out the rocker cover breather on the right side.
Do not vent to atmosphere, that it will only make it worse and break and take the engines design back to the 1940's, mod the PCV orifice as per what is found onLFX engines and newer. Also the rocker cover gasket design was changed where it has an infill panel on the seal over the rear section, the version shown here is the old gasket. There is in fact a link from the cam area to the PCV via a slot in the plastic of the cam cover to act as a built in Oil/Air seperator.
Took a while to figure out why there was an oil consumption problem on my 3.6 Malibu. I'm thinking the updated valve cover gasket and new pcv valve on the rear valve cover will solve it
@@johnnyversaci7091 hey yeah, personally i have a 08 VE wagon with the LY7 in it, have no idea what gasket is in it on the PCV orifice side. Also if you haven't already check this link www.moderncamaro.com/forum/v6-engine-discussion/53385-llt-lfx-pcv-orfice-mod-importance.html , This is further to my original post above where a guy found that on LFX engines the hole for the PCV port is been enlarged to increase flow in the PCV - he had warned GM engineers years before and they took notice, pop out the PCV orifice and drill it out "drill the top hole to 7/64's, and the two bottom ones 5/64's", He also has a great explanation of how the system is designed to work - which applies to many cars on the road and not just GM/Holden. Note you may have more ingested oil from doing the PCV mod, but that's the point of PCV/CCV is to use engine vacuum to suspend the contaminants from settling in the oil and the metal work inside and move them on.
TimM
I have done a few timing chains on the V6 engine and some of them have been full of sludge at the top end so the oil doesn't get back to the bottom, Basically i change the oil in our own cars (ones a V6 Captiva and the other a V6 VF Commodore) every 5000kms and haven't had a problem, The key thing is change the oil regularly 150000kms is far to long
there is also bigger filter from LFX impala i believe, almost double capacity
Just bought 2 VZ 05 06 Both have alloy techJust seen your video. I'm a mechanic as well I would've been scratching my head on why the colour difference two. That's a bloody GOOD FIND well done. Just save me a lot of time going why. One of two things Holden JUST FUCKED UP on it. Or they done it on purpose so you would do the timing chains $$$$$$ 4 HOLDEN. Mad that you work it out but bro.
Wow great info bud. seems like someone should make a kit for all vehicles that has this v6
Mate you're onto something here. Used to see this shit everyday (engine builder by trade) and was forever ragging on the old allytech down.
No such fault with the Mitsubishi 380 engine, much more low end power than the alloytech. Plus it's manufactured in Japan. Liked your video and style.
Yeah Mitsubishi isn't perfect either, look up crankcase pressure issues on the Evo 9 engine, the Clean Air inlet tube is too small from factory to allow clean filtered air into the crankcase for idle/cruise PCV/CCV conditions, then for WOT conditions could not vent fast enough reverse flow back into the T-piece to inlet of the turbo during high boost, at least the LY7 got that right with a massive 12.5mm intake tube - almost as big as most euro Diesel engine CCV pipes.
Great video and discussion. I subscribe to your theory too! My grandmother's Cadillac CTS is throwing codes P0008 and P0017. With only 80,000 miles, I have a hard time believing the timing chain has stretched that much. Appreciate your work on this issue!
Super common prob.
Can someone explain a fix. I understand what his saying but can you get a bigger PCV , remove it completely. Will drilling it out fix the problem. Not mechanically minded so i need some help. Thanks in advance.
Block the manifold vaccumm so you don't have a intake air leak, then remove both pcv hose connections and remove that garage. Drill that small pcv valve out then run both of them into a catch can
My brother had a VZ SV6 that did 540'000 with original chains and it was sold running fine.
Oil was changed with fully synthetic normal servicing for its first 40k then at 6 to 8k intervals on the dot for the rest of its life.
All country km's at 110 plus but yeah.
Cleaned the intake a bunch of times though, was really clogged up.
Good call. I believe in the USA where they use a similar engine they have an after market fix for this issue.
Second Gary Jessup. Timing chain just went on mine. I haven't had a look but you have a good point.
I do big long kays in my VE Omega. But, I change the oil out every 10 thousand, not the 15 thousand they lay out in the "service" guide. Full synthetic Pentrite. Taken a while to warm to the alloytec but it's done near on 170000kms and touch wood, has been a good motor. I'll be going back to an EcoTec though if it shits the tin.
My VZ just hit 276k and hasn't missed a beat. Curious to see if your VE is still going.
The positive crankcase ventilation system on these engines are adequate. Yes the drivers side bank only has a 1.5mm orifice because if it's too big and you'll loose too much manifold vacuum and it will run poorly. The reason they sludge on the drivers bank is due to different oil draining rates on left to right. And ANY sludging is purely the owners fault for not changing the oil frequently enough. The service reminder on VZ-on is set at 7500kms. The oil should be dropped then and then filter changed at 15000km interval. As for the timing chains rattling on these Alloytecs. GM have admitted to certain batches having tensioners and chains that were wearing and stretching prematurely. Holden now sell complete kits with revised components and 99% of Holden dealers keep the kits on the shelf. I'm currently replacing a timing chain on a customers 2010 commodore 3.6 SIDI that is squeaky clean inside. chains are so stretched it has jumped teeth and none of the Bank 2 cylinders were firing.
agree with the oil changes and that goes for any modern engine, my vz has done 230000 flawless kilometres, the dealer used synthetic oil during warranty and i have been doing same since although changed from 10w30 to 5w30, mechanic friend told me all the alloytec failures he's seen were due to cartridge oil filter collapse causing a blockage in the oil supply and all those cases involved poor maintenance, wrong oil grade and or cheap cartridge filter, he also advised not to engine flush as this could lead to any sludge creating a blockage
Perhaps the need to meter the flow on the right side of the motor (I'm in the U.S.) via the PCV is part of the problem. The flow is as sufficient as the required manifold vacuum will allow, due to idle problems that can develop if it's too high on an engine that uses a MAP sensor. The SIDI engines however, would not have a problem with increasing the PCV flow because they use Air Flow meter sensing instead of a MAP sensor and since valve cover ventilation occurs after the Air flow meter, all air entering the engine would still be accounted for leaving the idle unaffected.
With that said, my 08 CTS SIDI 3.6L has been well maintained and still a clear difference in cleanliness can be seen between both banks with the valve covers removed. The left side looks great at 285 Km, the right side is a bit more tanned in appearance and resembles metal that has been over heated showing the effect of poor airflow on the right side.
That may also contribute to the rate of oil contamination (break down) and thinning which may accelerate chain wear as all problem cars have not been the result of poor maintenance. The oil may give that impression. I have 4000 Km on my oil and it is black and looks and smells like it has twice the actual mileage on it. It also looks pretty thin.
Yes the timing chain wear is primarily due to a combination of extended oil change intervals and the fact that there is a lack of Zinc additives in modern engine oils. Timing chain stretch is a common issue on all modern engines due to the longer timing chain on a 60 degree DOHC arrangement. GM has started to use timing chains with a ferritic nitrocarburizing (FNC) treatment performed on the chains which creates a hardened surface on the sliding parts of the timing chain where friction wear is normally an issue.
I change my VZ oil every 5000Km and also the filter, for a few extra bucks for the cartridge, cant hurt to be prudent to extend the life of the engine and components as long as you can.
Been changing my fully synthetic oil every 5,000~ for the past 11 years... Have 650 thousand kilometers on it still runs great.
How the pvs works is that the left bank rocker cover is open to filtered air from between the air filter and throttle body, the right hand bank has that valve with the 1.5mm hole which is connected between the throttle body and inlet manifold, so what happens is the vaccum in the inlet manifold draws gases from the crankcase , so fresh filtered air enters the left rocker box, travels down through the engine and is finally sucked into the engine via that tiny 1.5mm pvc valve, so my question is, if you disconnect that pvc valve how are you going to get any ventilation ie removal of crankcase gases etc, I think you would make the matter worse if you removed this valve,
Very informative. I have a 2012 Chevy Malibu LTZ with the 3.6. And I'll be checking it soon. Thanks to your video.
Why is it that GM updated the rocker cover gasket and blocked off even more of the PCV port?
This new gasket 99% block off the rear head to sump void, this doesn't exist in the LGX and LF4 TT versions of the motor, if this isn't blocked in with the gasket, the Drivers side rocker cover area over the cams is starved of vacuum/positive displacement - instead stale air short circuits up from the sump/ rear of motor as least resistance, leaving entire drivers side CAM and chains etc to become stagnate and attacked by blow by acids forever. The gasket seals this void allowing CAM to PCV area 100% exclusive path, forcing passenger rocker > cam cover /crank > drivers side rocker cover consistent flow.
Penrite 5W30 oil every 5,000 kays plus filter & your Alloytec will love you for it.
thats the key. regular oil and filter changes.
I believe most if not all oil related problems can be solved with synthetic oil, changed at 5000 miles or less. But people are too cheap to let jiffy lube put synthetic in, so they opt for regular oil, then run it to 10K miles like the oil monitor wants. Then their engine dies at 100K and they complain.
Champion! Thanks for the info
thanks mate, but ill stick with my AU falcon, 400,000 k and its never missed a beat.
Thats the inline 6 for yah.. That the intech or barra?
Done 417,000km on my BA with the original engine and transmission. Most of the accessories (air con compressor, water pump, radiator, etc) is still original!
Always Ugly.... just like its owner
That's why Falcon taxis get 750,000 km
@livey oone talking about you actually (yobbo)
Can I show my mechanic this video and have the problem solved?
I drilled bigger holes in vent. Thank you!
then added oil catch can helped alot!!
Very good your correct, and the chain is only a single row chain. Also valve cover not rocker cover, we all have to move on from the 80's
Hello thank you for brilliant information just pulled my engine apart and i was wondering the two different color in two banks you are a great mechanic good on you
So once you remove the pcv vent what should you replace it with? I've also heard that drilling out the pcv a couple of mm helps. There's also a gasket you can get from the U.S. that covers the ventilation port only allowing excess fumes in and not actual oil which will also eliminate the pcv getting clogged up. What's your thoughts?
Yeah don't do what he says, PCV is essential in modern cars, it really should be called PDCV as in Positive Displacement Crankcase Ventilation, e.g MAF measured air enters the LH rocker cover (Aussie passengers side) collects the blow by, then the PCV orifice on the Right Hand rocker cover (Aussie Drivers side) has engine vacuum sucking on it, except for Wide Open Throttle when the PCV orifice has low vacuum so the flow of excess blowby pressure returns out the LH rocker cover to go down to towards the intake track between MAF and throttle body, thus what ever RPM the car is doing there is at least vacuum and therefore positive displacement of the damaging sludge. atmospherically Vented catch cans and venting any part of the OEM to the air actually results in a stagnated tank - that only fills at WOT, this is WORSE than PCV. You are correct that the upgraded rocker cover gasket for LE0/Ly7 helps (I haven't done it to mine yet) but I have drilled my PCV orifice to match the later LFX engines etc. MY understanding is the upgraded drivers rocker cover gasket has 3x small pin holes to drain back to the sump - these are more restrictive then the barrier notch between the CAM area and the back of the motor, so the engine vacuum sucks more air across the CAM's instead of short circuiting and sucking from the void down back of the motor into the the sump. If you look at LF4 and LGX motor 3D animations of assembly this void is gone or redirected. In the case of the LF3/LF4 they have a CAM driven Oil/Air separator.
@@robywankenobi32 very knowledgeable and well informed response. Thanks mate ;)
I am 15 years old and I rebuilt these every weekend. They almost all die at 120,000 miles. Never seen one with over 200k that has not been rebuilt or timing chains done.
What does it require to rebuild them
In the US we call these the "high feature" V6. We drill out the holes in the PCV. But I think I like you approach of just getting rid of it.