Keysight vs Siglent Deep Memory
Вставка
- Опубліковано 21 лип 2024
- This video presents what deep memory is in an oscilloscope and how a comparison; Keysight vs Siglent Deep Memory.
Keysight EDUX1002 review
• Keysight Educational O...
Link to Oscilloscope:
amzn.to/336Q3pJ
Also see the review of the Keysight DSOX oscilloscope:
• Keysight DSOX1204G
You can support this channel with this link to Patreon
Patreon.com/KissAnalog - Наука та технологія
Thank you so much, exactly what I was looking for, explained in an easy way and easy to remember! :-)
LOL at 9:05 you show both screens with zoom on and if I saw that I would think: "WOW the Keysight is much better, it updates in real time, while the Siglent can't keep up" but now I know better, normally do you want to see a fast update, but not if it's due to the scope trying to guess what is going on:-)
The fewer points on the Keysight was wary clear to understand but made me also wander:
Lets say you have a repeating signal with a anomaly for every 1mS, could you not just capture a smaller amount of time if you have less deep memory? Is deep memory not most relevant if you have random anomalies contained in your signal and have to capture longer times to spot them?
YW, I’m glad this made sense;) Yes, you could focus the sampling and memory to capture a transient like that. The triggering is so good now , but did you notice that the Siglent also had many more triggering options;) Yes the Siglent was locked on and looked to be not doing anything, but it was just the Keysight working so hard. I should have adjusted the Siglent display so the contrast in the upper window would have shown the contrast on the zoom better. It is an easy adjustment. In person the display looked better. The legs on the Siglent also tip the front up just a little more where my shop light hit it at a different angle to the camera.
@@KissAnalog Yes I did notice that.:-) What I did also noticed was that, as I understand it, the Siglent used different line intensities in the gradient display, to show how often the line was drawn at one spot or an other. While the Keysight just displayed if the line had been there at any time or not.
Fried Mule Yes, and it was more noticeable to the eye. I wondered if the camera was not showing it quite as well because of my lighting or maybe because of the slow shutter speed (1/50) I believe? But, that was another significant difference between the scopes. I think the deep memory allows the Siglent to capture enough data to show what essentially is the history of the waves captured over time.
@@KissAnalog I am pretty sue that it is not from the shutter speed but mostly your white balance. First let me guess, when you turn the camera on, it makes an automatic white balance? If so, you have to redo the white balance in the following way: make sure that the oscilloscope screen is filling from 1/2 to 1/3 of the picture and you about 1/4, the rest have to be some of the lighter surroundings. What you end up with is everything being hallways okay but nothing great and nothing bad. :-)
@@friedmule5403 I’ll work with the white balance to see if I can make this better. But, to the eye, the Siglent did look better and I did try to work with the intensity levels in each scope. Sometimes I don’t get notice for these comments and then I find them by accident;)
Thanks Eddie. Watching your videos since quite a while now, love em! Content is usually easy to grasp even for hobbyists. This video shows a great comparison. This is exactly the type of practical knowledge and type of test gear comparisons I am looking for. I would appreciate seeing more of those coming. I would love it even more to see those type of comparisons not only with some function gen connected, but e.g. also with real circuits connected just to learn and see how to troubleshoot things and how different oscilloscopes (or other devices) actually perform in doing their job.
Markus Keller Thank you Markus - that’s really great feedback! I have something to repair, so I’ll make a video showing a scope and multimeters in action;)
Thanks! After more than 2 years watching so many of your videos and Siglent reviews, finally got that scope. Your reviews have been unique and helpful. Appreciate it.
Thanks so much!
WOW, that experiment kill all KEYSIGHT args about Memory depth and "SEGMENTED MEMORY BS. "
You are the man! Thanx a lot, brother!
Thank you! I hate to do this when Keysight was so nice to loan this scope to me. But even Keysight knows the value of deep memory, and that's why the next series above this (really expensive) have deep memory. I really believe that they know that if they put deep memory in this scope series, they would lose lots of sales in their high dollar scopes;)
Eddie you nailed it again.
Thank you! I appreciate you!
Thank you very much, it's clear to know the benefit of big memory size.
Last month I used sds5104x and also be impressed by it's deep memory,
I can zoom in the waveform and still get nice detail compared to the old one (only see points..like toy.)
That’s awesome! What was your old scope? Thanks for the feedback!!!
Very good trick using the zoom function to compare memory depth on different scopes ;)
David S Thank you David! I appreciate you.
Thanks for the video
You bet! And thank you for your feedback!
Tx Kiss, good video. I have already started to calculate the sampling rate / memory depth ratio, (lower is better) gives you a neat indication how different scopes balance this. Siglent is the winner here, even Rigol 5000x with its 8G/s sampling rate but less memory falls behind which shows that the 8G/s thing on a 100 Mhz bandwidth is kind of relative...
Ondrej Popp I think you said it perfectly! Thanks for the great feedback!
@@KissAnalog You're welcome, have a great day!
Love the comparison! And I agree, manufactures can do more deep memory for very little money, but they should move the BASIC STUFF into faster scopes and lower the price so nobody can compete! After you have more of the market, you can bring up some nice stuff as "standard basic + apps" and make them more custom scopes can be made - you can charge more money for custom scopes. By then they will have the name and recognition!
I think this is why Rigol was doing so well - there was such a margin between them and the big boys - that they got a bit greedy and lazy too. Siglent came along and kicked all their buts. I’m not sure why Hantek hasn’t done more. Now Owon is moving in, and once they get their interface worked out - by spec - they will be kicking but! I still like GW Instek too.
@@KissAnalog Owon is my first color scope, only 2 channels and 100mgz but it works for me.
That's a really clear demonstration of deep memory, thank you. The Siglents are very good in this respect - particularly the 4 channel models which have the 14Mpts per channel pair! I like these scope demos, you should do more training videos - LOL: you must have a 'great ideas' list as long as your arm by now. Forget all that and finish your power supply videos :)
I'm struck both by the cost of the Keysight scope and its limited bandwidth and memory and its hidden value. The Siglents are better BUT if you had to add the waveform generator and demo board (as you say, you can't do the Bode plot on your Siglent model, you'd need a different one - ironically, better specs and cheaper! - but still lump out for the waveform generator) they would be more money so you could get a quality Keysight scope second hand. Ok, it would have limited memory and bandwidth but once you'd worked through that and had a good feel for using a scope, you could move it on and I bet you wouldn't lose much money on it. And with that statement, I seemed to have moved my opinion since the last video you did I commented on!
I am getting another video out on this scope while I have it on loan, but then I’ll get right back to the PS video series. I agree, the Keysight price is not as bad when considering the generator and Bode capability. If only it had deeper memory...
Deeper memory and better bandwidth and it would be a great hobbyist contender at the current price, I would definitely have bought one. I was looking at Keysight scopes (for quality) but I ended up with a Siglent SDS1104X-E at about 1/3rd the price. I would have paid more for the Keysight, but there does come a point when the difference is stretching into £00's different that it isn't justifiable. I think if I'd thought more about this particular model, I might have lumped out secondhand and then shifted it on as I think that's an ideal way to go.
I've finally got my SMPS design (buck) sorted and I'm seeing
Great choice! You can do Bode plots as well - right?
I can, but I need either the function generator add-on, or some external generator, to provide a signal. I didn’t realise that until I was looking as part of my answer above, I thought it was built in, but in hindsight it’s obvious that something else is needed and it’s why the Keysight EDU is such good value for learning. There’s a “+” version of your Siglent scope that can do bode plots as well, with the attachment/external generator, that I’m sorry to say is cheaper but your GW Instek outbeats them all really! I had looked at that but couldn’t justify the cost.
In the future I want to see one SO-DIMM memory slot inside any scope. I think that this will be huge progress in osciloscope world and more benefit for scope users.
I really think memory is so inexpensive, why shouldn’t every scope have a min of 10 Mpts per channel.
I think that is maybe for reason that in this case manufacturers can not manipulate with different scope performance and it`s price tag. What we have now is tottaly different story. We have almost same product with different price tag but inside scope is only different memory size and software, hardware is same. Same thing in car manufacturers, eg. VW Golf have TDI with silver letters, TDI with last I letter in red color and TDI with D and I letters in red color. Same engine with different software but also with different prices. On my example with UTD2102CEX scope it have 25kpts with $300 price tag and less, with adittional memory it will cost maybe no more then $50 above that $300 but in that case who will spend few hundred dollars more for nothing?! No one if all can have good scope with low price. Rigol DS1054Z is one good example for manufacturer manipulation with scopes and prices. DS1074Z and DS1104Z have same hardware but different firmware and price tag. Same is with memory. If we can to buy 100MHz/2Ch/1Gs scope with deep memory who will buy expensive scopes only if need deep memory?! Nobody or only few people who realy need few options more. I have Pioneer DVD "DV-410V" which I buy them for $50 and do some DIY modifications and this cost me about $10. On scope it have perfect digital output from SPDIF and analog output is flat line from 20Hz-20kHz. I do firmware upgrade from "pioneerfaq" web page and it can play everything with perfect audio outputs. Goldmund have own "Eidos" series DVD player and sell it for $6.000. Inside that Eidos player is Pioneer motherboard with 100% same electronic components. Where is difference? Eidos have 40 kg more then Pioneer in weight. Weight cost as a look. Yea right, we look music not listen.
Thanks for this video about the deep memory size. The advantage is clear zoom-in a real time waveform looking for more detailed image, but what happens when you have a single shot captured frame and you want to zoom-out to find something in other channel outside the captured frame? The scope uses his deep memory also?
Great question! The scope does keep some information before and after trigger - even what’s not on the screen. I’ll have to do a quick video on how the scopes I have treat that differently;)
From other video's it appears the Siglents do -not- show extra data when you to zoom out a single capture.
It zooms out what's on the screen but what's not on the screen is just black.
When both scopes are set to the same horizontal sweep, does the deep memory show up as a difference in samples/sec?
Yes, I think so. This is a great question! It doesn’t matter if you have a fast sample rate if there’s no memory to store it - so the sampling slows down to not overfill the small memory bank.
Thanks for the video. Can the deep memory record an extensive single shot of digital input at a specified period of data, as would a digital logic analyzer?
What I mean is, can the volt divisions be lowered in resolution to increase the digital capture length. For instance, if I have 8 seconds of sporadic digital data, can it be captured at 1-microsecond intervals for a total of 8 million data points? Or what is the maximum duration with 1-microsecond point capture?
There is a formula that works for straight forward type sampling mode which is: Memory depth/time per division) x number of divisions = sample rate
But, if you have a specific time in between the data that you want, like 8 seconds where you don't care to read it, then you can use the segmented memory. So, basically you set a time to wait and a time to capture. And depending on how much time you capture at the sample rate - that will determine how many segments that you can record.
Does that answer your question? Thanks for asking - that is a fantastic question.
@@KissAnalog Thanks. I think I understand now that as the sampled time frame expands, it works out the regular intervals for each sample. Even with 28mpts, I could get a 0.714us sample period over a 20-second duration. 100mpts would give me 0.2us between samples, and 200mpts over 20 seconds would give me 0.1us between samples. Is this correct?
Yup, deep memory does make a big difference, especially in the detail.
Thanks for commenting:) hope to hear more from you!
I just bought my first oscilloscope. Actualley I bought a siglent and a hantek. Plus 3 sprectrum analizers from ebay. Iam saving for the siglent sprectrum analizer. And a couple of capasitor esr and esl testers I bought the siglent sds 1204xe oscilloscope. I want to evuantley step up to a gw- instek.
Wow - do you resale them or collect? Which scope do you like better; the Siglent or Hantek? Great to hear from you!
Dont know yet. Untill they come. But from what I have seen siglent offers the most for the least. I really want a communication test set that analizes apco phase 1&2 edacs digital trunking tdma cdma fdma and moto turbo along with dmr tier 1-4 . I also orderd a siglent 60 mhz wave form generator and a hantek 300 mhz wave form generator. But ebay and amazon along with saileng the dealer for siglent they all say that my items will not be here till around the 17 or later. And then I still need to go shopping for couplers and terminators and adaptors. Cause I really want to learn this hobbie. I tried to understand these things when I was younger. But now my brain is starting to work. Plus long story short I want to go into the navy as an electronics mate . And iam 32 and the cut off is 34 so I basicalley have the next year to learn and push myself. And to answer your question iam doing this all for self- preservation and learning. Cause it all started when I had multiple electrical prombles on my 90 lincoln with obd1 and no electrical shop could diagnose it and or repair my no start. So I have been taking it upon myself to learn. And now my 90 is my everyday driver. Later on I really want to get into diagnosing and reparing test equipment cb/ ham radios witch I have done 4 all ready plus 4 no starts here in kingman. And I periodically have people calling me from other jobs to come look at there no starts . But I kindley redirect them to Roger's electric
Cause I actualley loose money on these no starts. But it's the knlowedge iam after. Evan though iam looseing money. Agin I tried to learn when I was younger but I spent most of my time trying to stay out of trouble in california.i was knowen as the west covina jammer . Now that iam in arizona I have been in zero trouble. So I figure I better take advantage of my good situation. And if you would like I can make a video of my test gear as it comes in. And send you the link. F.y.i iam no expert I just started applying my self about a year ago. So when I do not know of get a term or incorrect knlowedge please let me know. Cause i really want to learn electronic diagnosic/ componet/ measurement's properley.
Btw qpd and qaa stands for quazie peak detector and quazie amplifier analizer
Cause I remember you where asking in one of your videos. What the q& a stood for
I could have this wrong but this is what I found. It's for analyzing and sweeping of amplifers or transistors . I could have this wrong but agin iam am new and iam making my own electronics abbreviation book. From everything I loom up and research. And I make changes as I find out that iam wrong or things get revised.
Just click on my E icon and you can see my video of my first oscilloscope signal.analizer with tracker and a 60 mhz waveform signal generator. I really do know how to use these items . But I will learn as much as I can before I fire them up. So I dont waste my money due to lack of knlowedge.
Great job explaining and showing "Deep Memory" ! I have the E version and really like it.
73 N8AUM
That is a great scope! I like what they did with that version. Thanks - and I appreciate you!
Hi, how about the segnented memory on keysight?
Segmented memory is great but doesn’t completely replace deep memory. It does help but Siglent also has segmented memory. I think all deep memory scopes have segmented memory. I should do a video on segmented memory - thank you;)
Side note: I'd like to see a scope that can also do spectrum analyzer function. It's still the high speed AD that matters so why the F don't they make it do both.
I use the GW Instek with a spectrum analyzer built in. ua-cam.com/video/uTirYr_y5u8/v-deo.html
i am new in the field , but i am wondering if deep memory is so important then why many oscilloscopes that cost 15K and more , have only 4-5Mpts ? probably its not so necessary to zoom out so much and zoom in afterwards on a tiny fraction of the waveform?
Great Question Anton! Ok, so this Keysight is a less than $1000, and it is not worth it;) I think Keysight is doing a great job to get the price down close to what we can get from Siglent, Rigol, and GW Instek, but they won't hurt their sales for their $15000 scopes. They jump up to say $5000, and what you get is speed - 500 MHz band width and 5 GSa/s. Then the next price jump is say $15000 which you get fast and better vertical resolution (10 bits) - which is BIG! Then at say $20,000, now you get deep memory with all that speed.
It would be simple to add deep memory in this scope for under $1000, as others do it. They won't because it would kill many reasons to spend more on their high dollar money makers. There has to be a marketing difference. That's all IMHO;)
BTW, it was after I've complained to Keysight for a few years (and probably others) that just last year they offered a model in this series where they doubled the memory. Still small, but proves my theory - to a point.
@@KissAnalog probably you are talking about the DSOX1202A ? i ordered yesterday the same model with the built in function generator . it has 2Mpts of memory which i consider decent . you are right about the EDUX its really not worth it and it seems that its just an entry level scope for educational use and nothing more than that . anyway i get your point about the marketing etc . thanks for the effort you put in your videos
Starts to make me second-guess my purchase of my Keysight and maybe wish I got a Singlet.
Been looking at the scopes with out a screen like a PecoScope or Hantek it seems like you get a lot more bang for your buck and there’s a lot more memory power in an old laptop with a big screen. Comparing one of those modular scopes to a RIGOL, Keysight, Siglent looks like it’s getting to the point don’t even bother buying one of the three big names because you just do not get much performance for your dollar.
I think keysight is doing a better job than Tektronix in regards to value vs dollars, and some people will stick with them. I wanted performance, but I was willing to try a Siglent, and I am happy that I did. But, then I tried the GW Instek because I wanted the Bode plots and Spectrum, and I think I have all the scope that I will need. I do have a scope module that works with a PC, and I’ll review it soon. It seems like you say - lots of power for little cost.
Help me Kiss Analog. GW Instek MSO2204EX or Keysight 1204G? Thx.
I like the GW for two main reasons; one big thing is that the GW has a deep memory 10M per channel, and the second which is more of a personal biggie and that is 4 sets of individual control. Also the menus can be turned off and the screen can be recaptured by removing the menus. Also, the EA version provides 2 oscillators vs the 1 on the Keysight. amzn.to/2vYdl65
Thanks. I would add also that GW has 1 inch bigger screen and overall as bench scope is bigger. GW has multifunction keys also under the screen.
Great point! Let me know if yo get one and how you like it;)
It's too bad that they can't somehow in software warn the user on screen that the data displayed may be inaccurate. If I look at the jitter of the display in the Keysight I would have assumed that the issue is the signal, when in fact it's not.
It would be great if the scope did some kind of analysis like that. Thanks for the feedback!
Interesting. I was wondering if the keysight was interesting since they dipped down in price range but they just made a bad scope, not a quality one at low cost.
Thanks for the great question! I think it is a quality scope but they did hold back on the memory depth and it is a bit of a small screen, but then again the scope is a small format scope. It is hefty and well made IMHO;) It is still higher price than say a GW Instek with better performace, but it is a great price for them. I actually think that they feared that if they put larger memory in it that it would take away from sales of the scope costing several times more. They did come out with a model where they increased the memory as it was really lacking.
Useful experiment to discredit Agilent's marketing :)
Thanks - I appreciate you;)
Hi Eddie, Fred Mule made such a great comment I’ll just let it go at that and say thanks again for a cool video.
LOL
Thank you!
I think the 4 channel Siglent (1204e-x) version will do Bode plots. $759 for the 4 channel version. The 1202e-x is remarkable at $359. I don't even care what the price of the Agilent is.
I totally agree - sub $400 for a great scope! I really do like the Bode plot function. The GW Instek MDO series is worthy of a look too.
Thanks for pointing this out! ;)
Rigol Ds1202z-e Oscilloscope, 2 Channels, 200mhz much higher than 2 for less than 500 dollars 24deep memory
Thanks for the great feedback! The Rigol is a great scope, but does it do Bode plots?
@@KissAnalog honestly I do not know if it has traces of bode but it is an excellent Oscilloscope Rigol Ds1202z-e, 2 Channels, 200mhz
I am very happy with the purchase of the RIGOL
Keysight has done a bad job with its entry level scopes, at the same price. Siglent and Rigol offer way too much for hobbyists.
I’d have to agree! I think if Keysight would add more memory at the same or even a bit lower price - then maybe a lot more people would be interested because of their name. But at least amount the big names that they tried;)