I think kingdom hearts is more close to being a conventional rpg where u level up than Zelda. And it has elements of exploration and adventure games too.
These just get better and better. Love it man. It's an artform what you do with the material and you're a natural at this. Well done brotha and thank you
I'm very intrigued by this entire conversation. I think it's important to consider time in this argument. Back in the 90s, the definition of RPG was so vague that one could consider a fighting game role-playing because you assume the role of a character. As time has progressed, RPGs have become more polarizing due to some gamers vehemently "not liking RPGs." Nowadays, there have been more features added to RPGs to help them stand apart so their audience can be more clearly defined. Looking through the lens of anyone in 1992: almost everything is an RPG. There just weren't enough variety of gameplay options yet to clearly build a wall between them and others. In modern times, Zelda just doesn't have enough defining qualities to be called an RPG. This is also why it's no longer listed on game boxes; they left that genre in the 90s.
Zelda was inspired by Rpgs and at the time the idea of what an rpg was was very flimsy. And so it was called one. But nowadays, now that it's very clear what elements an RPG actually contains Zelda is an action adventure title. Regardless of what you call it, it's still incredible.
Exactly how i feel about it couldn’t have said it better myself in my opinion Zelda is not a traditional RPG it has elements of the genre but it has always focused on exploration, puzzles, and combat not leveling up customization of your character or party members i feel as if it’s a action adventure game
The Zelda games never met that criteria of an RPG for me. I acknowledge that it is considered an action RPG franchise of course, but RPG to me always meant turn based, levels, etc. There's nothing wrong with ARPGs, I love em, but I have two distinct categories in my head canon. Strategy RPGs are a whole different category, I love me some Final Fantasy Tactics, Front Mission, Vandal Hearts, etc. As far as Castlevania goes, I wouldn't consider any of them to fit the mold of RPG, though starting with SotN's direction they were definitely closer. I think it's fair to say platformer with RPG elements there.
When you said that you might upset us I legit thought you were gonna talk about how you didn’t like Zelda and turned out to like it in the end further supported by the title lol
Its personal for everyone but to me, a rpg has to have some sort of active experience system. You need to be able to level up skills and see a tangible difference with that leveling. Zelda is an action adventure game for me because it has progression based advancement. It's more like Metroid where you get to a point in the game and get an item/ability to let you get to the next. It's not like links attack power gets any stronger, he just acquires different swords. So thats how I look at it, you need to have some sort of experience system where each kill means something, which is why its more action adventure, again like Metroid. If Zelda is a RPG, Metroid is too.
Zelda 2, the best Zelda, actually does have an experience / level building system. Your attack gets stronger, your life bar takes less damage, and your magic spells use less magic when casting as you level them up.
Good time to bring up Dragon Quest (Warrior). Today would have been film, television, & video game composer Koichi Sugiyama's birthday. Sugiyama-San worked on The 1st eleven Dragon Quest games (1986-2017).. and E.V.O.: Search for Eden (1992).
Zelda's are overhead action adventure games that have role playing elements,crept for Zelda 2 is a side scrolling action adventure game with role playing elements. Great episode Tyler, oh yeah, I just learned that you're Grandfather was an incredible comic book artist, whom I followed as a youngster and that fact blew my mind. Big fan and of yours as well, keep on killing it bro, and thanks 😅
14:54 That finale music from ALTTP gets me every time 🥹 takes me back to my tiny bedroom with the 9" tv on the dresser that i had to use a fork to turn on cuz the power switch was broken off.
I had a friend in 2nd grade that called my Sega Genesis a Nintendo. He insisted that even a PlayStation was a Nintendo. I think you would get along with him well
Some people are mad that he brought out the RECEIPTS with his stance. Miyamoto himself said it. It said on the Japanese box 3Dアクションrpg (action rpg). To deny Zelda of any RPG status at all is silly, and often probably due to the fact that somebody doesn’t like it, and doesn’t want it grouped in with beloved FF’s or dragon quests.
@@colinDESU His recipes are wrong. Zelda boxes don't have a great track record of containing accurate information. The original Majora's Mask box says that it's a 4 player game and includes an illustration of 4 controllers. Miyamoto has said many times that Zelda is *not* an RPG and that he doesn't like them
@@colinDESU Go to Shigeru Miyamoto's wikipedia page and look at the last paragraph under Development philosophy. It's just before the "Impact" subheading. Wikipedia includes several references including a link to a September 14th 2003, Nintendo Official Magazine (UK) where Miyamoto says " I personally have a fundamental dislike of the RPG system" and tells why. I'll post some links, but they may not show up
Side note: When you said your cousin learned to read from dragon warrior it really hit home for me, I taught myself to read and write when I was 3 because of the famous speak and spell from E.T. Oh yes, there can be serious educational value in learning through games. It literally put me years ahead of my peers.
Zelda has no complex stat system to really play a role, but uses few improvements in the form of items and weapons. But that's true for 90% of video games. A Gta with the Missions for different people (like quests) and possibilities to choose what to do with consequences and better stats by doing side quests would have even more of an rpg than Zelda. And even games with very similar elements as zelda like MediEvil are called action adventure, cause there is no real chance to play a role without complex stats to make it Immersive and highly impressionable. Therefore, Zelda should actually be classified as an action adventure with real-time RPG elements.
Per Wiki: "The Legend of Zelda[a] is an action-adventure game franchise created by the Japanese game designers Shigeru Miyamoto and Takashi Tezuka...The gameplay incorporates action-adventure and elements of action RPG games." Other than "Zelda II: The Adventure of Link"; to my knowledge, all other games in the franchise are listed as "action adventure" titles on GameFAQS as well.
Your dad liked to put the game cartridges in plastic rental style cases and he modified the box artwork to fit in them. It’s hard to put them back in the cardboard boxes after taking them out.
It was not a RPG to me growing up. Everything has elements of something else but what is at the core. At its core, Zelda is an action adventure. I need to have some in depth character building for it to be an RPG. I feel like when you call Zelda an RPG, you are trying to get off on a technicality. I love this channel, even when you are wrong, lol. I look forward to your next video!
80s kid here. I never played Legend of Zelda games as a kid until 'A Link To The Past' on SNES. My introduction to 'RPGs' was Ironsword: Wizards & Warriors II. The story, the music, the graphics.... it just checked all the boxes for my tiny lil' heart. Questing & platforming through caves, dungeons, waterfalls and chasms to find golden items for giant animal kings is the stuff that gets my gaming motor running. I'm diagnosed with ADHD, so faster-paced games that don't require long stretches of focus and "grinding" will keep me from being alienated. Clearly, somebody at Rare Coin-It thought the same thing when they made the W&W series for the NES. Put simply: Art -whether it's a video game or not- of ANY sort is without bounderies. It's best expressed when painted outside the lines. We use the term "RPG" so magazines and retailers can properly categorize it. We the consumers take the term that much further with our passion and dedication. Nothing more.
I have to completely disagree with those that think Legend of Zelda games are "RPG", RPGs and even "Action RPGs" have stats based in some part on the categories of stats derived from and can be traced back to Dungeons & Dragons, and has character(s) that can be be leveled up with some kind of Experience Points by either killing monsters or doing certain tasks. LOZ is an action adventure game with some RPG-ish elements.
Consider this: Zelda II is the one game in the series that almost everyone can agree is an RPG and is at the same time almost universally labeled the franchise's "black sheep".
But that’s also because its side scrolling, and yes I know links awakening and other Gameboy Zelda’s have sections like that but links adventure was just so much more different then every other game with or with out the leveling system
My definition of an RPG is based on a misunderstanding I had as a kid. I thought it was Roll Playing Game, not Role Playing Game; so to me RPGs were games where everything's based on dice rolls. To me, Zelda's kind of it's own thing, I don't personally consider it an RPG; since there's no dice rolls going on behind the scenes determining your damage and whatnot. But I totally get the argument that it's an RPG.
First of all, I LOVE your channel. Watching this video (and others you uploaded) I can tell the difference between the first and third world. I'm from Argentina and here things from the 80s only arrived in the early 90s. Here no one had an original console or cartridges due to their high cost, so the "Family Game" was very popular, a clone of the Japanese Famicom. We never knew an original game with a box and manual, so we had to grow up discovering the controls, maps and other aspects of the games (not to mention that most of them were in English or Japanese). On the other hand, franchises like Zelda or Metroid were not well known in these latitudes; We usually had "bootleg" cartridges like "75 games in 1", which did not include those titles. We met those franchises in later console generations. Lastly, Nintendo was always very expensive here, it was rare to see someone with a Game Boy, SNES or N64. Most had the 8-bit Family Game, then some Sega Genesis clone (for example, I had the "Super Senga"), and in the 3D generation, PlayStation more than N64, especially because of pirated games. I think we missed a lot of the game experience, but I'm not complaining, we made do with what we had and were happy.
9:20 I would argue that the term was more nebulous back in the day. Since the Zelda clones shared a similar theme to games like Final Fantasy, Dragon Warrior, etc, they were lumped into the same genre, probably to help market the games.
I 100% agree with you on your take. Zelda games have rpg elements through story and NPCs and leveling up not just through heart containers, but in the original and link to the past you have rings and mail, plus sword upgrades. What happened was UA-camrs came out with their own opinions on things and that became gospel.
I think RPG has taken on a more specific meaning. When I think of RPG, I think of games of midlevel or ancient times that consist of deep character development, Games that utilize spells/magic/potions, games that have an in-depth leveling system/skill system that is much more than just beating a level/platform. These games also have a very rich and in-depth storyline. All of these elements make up an RPG. If a game has one or a couple of these elements, they aren't considered an RPG, but have one or more RPG elements.
Monster Hunter is an action RPG with no leveling up at all. Just upgrades…which all Zelda games have to different degrees. Especially modern Zelda now. TOTK even has a “party” that fights with you, and abilities you can have them use with you. You can upgrade them, your clothes, and even upgrade your weapons via fuse, hearts and stamina. Its an action adventure RPG or just an action RPG.
I love that NES Advantage controller. I remember my mom buying me that for like $45 if I remember correctly and this controller helped me beat my favorite game of all time, Blaster Master because of the slow motion option for the 5th stage boss, THE CRAB. LMAO
"RPG" comes from tabletop games with dice, stats, level ups, and so on. While we were playing Nintendo games, older gamers had Western RPGs on PCs, like Ultima, which is where JRPGs came from. So really what happened was a generation gap: gen X Americans had "real" RPGs on PCs, but millenials preferred consoles from Japanese makers, so we didn't learn about "real" RPGs until the Japanese decided we were ready for them in the mid 90s.
Your dad is a great man! Watching your videos, I just have so much admiration for your father. Of course, your content is top notch as well! I just wanted to give you a shout out man and let you know that!
My understanding is there are ARPGs like Zelda, JRPGs descended from Dragon Quest, CRPGs that descend from Ultima and Wizardry, and SRPGs like Fire Emblem or Ogre Battle.
I think the definition of RPG has changed as games have grown in number and diversity. I think back in the day, having a game with a lot of words which you read to get a grasp of the story as a main aspect of the draw is what really gave it the RPG label. Over time the "RPG" titles really broke into different groups based on the gameplay more than the experience. If someone says to me "RPG", they are talking about a turn-based (maybe with some time elements sometimes) battle system where you select your moves from a list, with a specific battle mode and exploring mode. So Dragon Warrior is about as RPG as RPGs can get, but also basically every final fantasy game. Games like castlevania, metroid, and zelda games I would not consider RPGs, although there is a hint of it in them.
I have always considered Zelda an RPG. You get the chance to expand your characters stats through exploration and equipment. Not all stats are required but there is still a grind if you want max load. Just because there aren't stats involved to me doesn't make it inherently not an RPG. As long as the game gives you the choice to buff yourself or just get through it at bare minimum meets my requirements of an RPG type game. I remember debating this with friends in the 90's, some of them thought an RPG had to be turned based with numbers but I thought all of that was semantics when the real RPG aesthetic was get through the game while increasing your characters power to the point where you feel you are ready to complete the mission as long as the point A and B allowed.
Did you own Wind Waker, Four Swords Adventures and Twilight Princess? They also made a collector’s edition for GameCube with all the original Zelda titles.
I agree with you. If you look at BOTW the more you fight enemies the stronger you get. I pretty sure there’s a hidden level system in it. Certainly bigger enemies become easier each time. OOT is similar as you grow more as you progress. It’s an interesting way to view a game series as Zelda. 😊👍
I remember this debate back when I used to creep around Zelda message boards in the early 2000s. I'd say a lot of genres weren't really well defined at that time. That's why a game with light RPG elements like Zelda would get lumped in with traditional RPGs like Dragon Quest (Warrior at the time) and Final Fantasy. In reality, though, Zelda is the quintessential action-adventure game. Zelda has more in common with other action-adventure games like God of War or even Grand Theft Auto than it does with games like Persona or Baldur's Gate. I suppose Zelda is at least a bit similar to action RPGs like Kingdom Hearts, but calling Zelda an action RPG for that reason is a slippery slope to just calling every action-adventure and action RPG, which does a disservice to both genres.
If the term RPG is broad enough to include Zelda (or any game, as you mentioned), then why is it an important that we recognize Zelda as an RPG? There has to be *something* distinctive about an RPG from your perspective, otherwise you wouldn't bother laboring to defend Zelda as an RPG. Genres should be distinctive. The more broadly genre-terms are used, the less meaningful they become. Can we also call Zelda a shoot-em-up? You do shoot arrows after all. -- Sorry for the long comments. No disrespect. Love your videos.
I think the only Zelda game that could even be considered an RPG is the second game since you actually level different stats in that game. For pretty much every entry that I can remember though, the games are Action Adventure. An RPG needs to have a levelling system that you can invest in to form the character or play style you want.
Yeah there's no fuckin numbers in Zelda. And there's no "chance to miss/chance to hit". Having an element or two taken from RPGs doesn't make the game an RPG. It makes it action-adventure with minor RPG elements. Most games have similar features and we don't call everything an RPG just because you can use an item or change your weapon
When I was kid i always viewed RPGs as games where you selected commands in a menu and watch your characters fight, like Final Fantasy/Mario RPG. Games where you control your character in real time to fight I always viewed as "Adventure" games. Even so, I don't have any problems calling Zelda an RPG, and I think it's 100% fair to call Zelda an Action/Adventure RPG. Zelda and Final Fantasy are both similar in that characters grow both in the storytelling and through acquiring stronger items, weapons, and magic throughout their adventure. The main difference for me is that in Final Fantasy a character also gets stronger as their levels/EXP points increase, whereas in Zelda, Link only gets stronger proportionate to the players gaming skills/ gaming experience.
The creator of The Legend of Zelda referred to Link as Zelda in that article you show around the seven minute mark. Something to the effect of, "We changed the graphics. So we had to change the way Zelda swings his sword." Was he not Link in the OG Zelda game? Now my head is spinning.
Jeez Tyler...didnt have a wasp nest to swat at today? couldnt find a puppy to kick on camera? Is Legend of Zelda an RPG? something something 10 ft pole...something something 3rd rail. LOL. I hope this goes super viral for ya Brother because the subject should bring out the feels and the trolls.
I would say it's an action adventure game, but in the end nobody can prevent you from identifying as Link while playing it. In that sense I guess it's an "RP-able-game. Do I make sense?
Zelda 2 for the NES, the best Zelda, is the closest to an rpg. The experience / leveling up of attack, life (defense), and magic (point usage) are definitely rpg features. It has magic use kind of like an rpg. It lacks the acquisition of better equipment though.
This is like Strategy games and Real Time Strategy, or RTS. Strategy games is turn based, it waits for you to make your moves then the next player makes their moves, on and on. RTS everything happens at the same time. Same here, a RPG turns are taken, and an Action RPG everything happens at once. To be an Action RPG it needs a leveling system of some sort, and I guess getting better gear can be considered leveling up. I've always called games that are real time but have a leveling system as Action RPG.
I consider The Legend of Zelda an RPG. Also it’s nice to see this new video pop up from you today, Tyler. Me and many of your Patreons are always looking forward to the new content.
RPGs especially from the 80s 90s were table top games in video game form. Table top games were called RPGs. So the video game version is also an rpg. Zelda IS NOT an rpg. There's more to genre than the literal definition of the words. Every game is not an rpg
Due to the lack of an expirience system in most zelda titles I call the series action adventure games. But I can see how some people disagree on that. Noone get hurt for disagreeing here. What I haven't seen before is someone that calls the Zelda series role playing games but SOTN not? This is some confusing stuff. And I remember when Larry Bundy Jr called the Atari Jaguar 64 bit and the Sega Dreamcast a 32bit machine. And the whole argument of Myamoto saying it counts as one, doesn't matter in the slightest. The Inventor of the gif said it's pronounced "Jif" to which I say gif stands for Graphics Interchange Format. Unless you change the legal pronouciation of the word graphics, it will be called gif.
I'd argue that most Final Fantasy or Dragon Quest games also aren't RPGs, since usually you're following a pretty set story with set characters, not role playing. I think we call these games RPGs because they have mechanics that function similar to tabletop RPG mechanics. So I think "Adventure" describe Zelda, Final Fantasy, etc better than RPG ever could
I feel that as the industry has evolved, so have the genres and the way we classify games within them. Most games are going to have qualities that borrow from MULTIPLE genres making it nearly impossible to divide them up in a way everyone's going to agree on.
Having an element or two taken from RPGs doesn't make the game an RPG. It makes it action-adventure with minor RPG elements. Most games have similar features and we don't call everything an RPG just because you can use an item or change your weapon
Hey Tyler I don't know if you remember me the guy living in Japan LOL. But the bottom of the box says ACTION RPG. Just a quick correction cause I read Japanese LOL. But regardless I always considered Zelda as an Action adventure type of game. So sorry Tyler LOL. Congrats on your success I knew you would make it and keep on the good work I love the videos :).
Perhaps the real question is: IS there a specific name to categorize Zelda games under? I don't think so. Miyamoto is such a genius, inspired by so many things, that he was able to create a genre on its own with Zelda.
Having an element or two taken from RPGs doesn't make the game an RPG. It makes it action-adventure with minor RPG elements. Most games have similar features and we don't call everything an RPG just because you can use an item or change your weapon
Agreed with Francis; all of those games are RPG’s. They all fall into their own sub genre of RPG depending what they lean more forwards. Zelda is absolutely a RPG game and always has been.
In a way, Legend of Zelda is an RPG, yet It wasn't exactly as traditional as Final Fantasy in terms of gameplay and progress, It has the elements of adventure and the story talking place on a medieval setting. If It wasn't for Legend of Zelda, what would have been of the Darksiders game series and many other games.
@@pokekiller787x yeah, true but at the time, It was the most common atmosphere an RPG and thier respective clones (Final Fantasy or Zelda clones). I don't remember of there was a futuristic RPG on the 80's, the only ones that I remember talking place on a futuristic Sci -Fi or maybe Steampunk setting were Chrono Trigger and Shadowrun. But if you happen to know one from the 80s I would like to know, I'm helping on a game Review channel and another suggestion of a game to review would be great.
@cpl.barbarusc4814 It's very true that the setting is extremely common in RPGs. There is an RPG called Lagrange Point for the Famicom, but if you don't speak Japanese, it requires an English patch to play. That wasn't the 80s, though. It was in 91.
@@pokekiller787x Lagrange Point huh? I'm a sucker of japanese Sci-Fi so I could give this a go, and hopefully with patch or at least on an emulator, just to take a looksy.
A Japanese Role Playing game is a game that that uses stats to simulate combat, like the games that inspired the genre, Wizardry and Ultima (Not D&D,) . Zelda is an Action Adventure game
To me RPGs have always been about stats. I even considered San Andreas an RPG because you had a strength, stamina, and weight stat. But there is something about Link that makes him special. You can name the character after yourself, or anyone for that matter, and I think that really makes you feel like you ARE Link. Unlike playing as Mario or Masterchief. But then to contradict that, I'll even say games like FF6 or Chrono Trigger don't register as an RPG to me because you're controlling a party and not an individual. I feel like I'm just an outside observer tagging along with the gang for their adventure, it's more like a "party adventure". Another example, Kingdom Hearts is technically a RPG with stats but feels much more like an action party adventure too. At the end of the day, I feel every game is it's own unique scenario. No right or wrong. RPG is in the eye of the beholder. Great food for thought though! Love your content!
I used to consider it an RPG before I knew much about the genre. Aside from Zelda 2, I think it's on the borderline of the action adventure and action RPG genres.
In Australia our main arcade chain back in the 90's used to be a place called Timezone, i remember when i was young me and my brothers would go to the "lock in" nights where youre locked in for a fee and all games were unlimited did u have those in usa?
I think of them as action adventure games because there is no leveling system, but when you get down to it, who cares? As you pointed out towards the beginning of the video, most games meet the most base-level definition of RPG, that being a game in which you take on a role. So long as the games are enjoyable, that's all that really matters.
I never really know where to put Zelda. To me, JRPGs were my first introduction to RPGs and what I largely considered RPGs for a long time. I realized as I got older it's a bit wider of a genre than that. They call some things RPGs these days that really aren't. Back to Zelda... at the end of the day I don't really care where people choose to place it when they describe it. I love the series regardless.
12:48 Well, yes, it has heart containers and item upgrades that grow your character. But so does Metroid (tanks instead of hearts), and nobody calls that an RPG, then or now. And Metal Gear too, you grow your max health and rank and get better weapons and items to take on stronger enemies. Also, not thought of as an RPG series. Even if you are Playing the Role of a character in both of those Games. I think the real disconnect is that the term RPG wasn't well defined early on. And over the years it's gotten more and more strictly defined. Especially since so many modern games include "RPG Elements" in them, which usually means that there is some sort of experience points/leveling system. So we now expect that an RPG has to have some sort of experience points/leveling system in it. And Zelda does not, other than Zelda II. But speaking of Zelda II, the series does however usually have towns and people to talk to and gather information about the current dilemma, and big open worlds and dungeons to explore and a long story in a fantasy setting. Which are all further staples of the genre. So imho, with those things in addition to how the character progression happens (even if it's not experience points based), that puts it more firmly in the RPG genre.
I think it has to be checked game by game. BOTW and TOTK have a lot of RPG elements in them. Ocarina of Time and A Link to the Past are more like action-adventure games where new areas open based on items, and you don't grow if you don't want to. Zelda II, in terms of elements, is very close to an RPG, but the combat diverges from the typical RPG definition.
None of my friends or I liked Zelda during the NES/SNES era. It looked like watching grass grow. Like literally a chore to do, not a game. Or playing chess. Only one kid liked it in my friend group and I have no idea why. To Zelda’s credit though - BOTW is one of my favorite games now.
The reason why so many people have "beef" with Zelda is because its a big franchise. Like its BIG. So people are going to say things. If it were a smaller or lesser known game, nobody would even be talking about it.
I think RPG is just a blanket term that nobody really uses the same way. The roll some may say is your job that you pick. Mage, warrior, ranger etc. many games lack that and people just say it’s an RPG because it has a skill tree. People started calling assassin’s creed an RPG now. A skill tree doesn’t make a game an rpg. I think RPGs in the traditional sense is a game where you pick a class(or one is assigned to you and the members of your party) and have stats like strength, dexterity, intelligence etc. stemming from tabletop D&D
When I think of RPG, I think of the modern interpretation of it - level up, stats, skill trees, etc. But I completely agree with your take. Assuming the role of a character where you have some autonomy in developing them is the core of a “role playing” game. It doesn’t have to be a custom character, you don’t need experience points, or dialogue trees. These are just popular mechanics. Zelda is an action RPG!
great topic, and good video! personally the legend of zelda is an action-adventure in my book, has way more in common with the action and puzzle solving of action adventure games in game design. i get why people feel its an rpg because you can free roam from town to route to dungeon, and its medieval fantasy which, lets be honest, is dominated by rpgs. i think in NA Zelda was marketed as action-adventure primarily due the the design elements which adhered to AAs from Europe and North America, but it seems that in Japan the series was marketed more as adventure-rpg/action-rpg. either way call it what you feel like calling it (= my journey with zelda started in 1999 and my basis was tomb raider and final fantasy vii. back then i was like this game has way more in common with tomb raider than final fantasy
I have always thought of the Zelda games as RPGs, because that's what we called them back in the day. So often these days do I see modern gamers or whomever try to dictate some new take on whatever thing we've all known for decades that they are now trying to force everyone to think of otherwise, and they somehow think they know better, when they just don't. I'm not a fan of their rewriting of or revisionist history at all. And, yup, SotN is an action platformer; it's definitely not an RPG. Just as shoot 'em up or "shump" does not mean any old game where you shoot things either. It almost always means scrolling shooters where you fly something around the screen while blasting away at things, like classic Gradius, R-Type, Super Aleste, U.N. Quadron, etc. Smash TV and Xeno Crisis (welcome to the recently released SNES version), for example, are not shmups. Those are something else, like twin stick shooters or Robotron clones. And run 'n' gun games like Contra, Gunstar Heroes and Cuphead are not shmups; they're run 'n' gun games. House of the Dead and Time Crisis are not shmups as the Wikipedia "shoot 'em up" page might have you believe; they're arcade-style [light]gun games. It's also kinda like how Apple's marketing team brainwashed everyone into saying x amount "thin", so everyone knows just how thin their devices are, when the phrase is correctly said as x amount thick (regardless of how amazingly thin it is). And it's not "addicting"; it's addictive: This game is so dang addictive that I just can't put it down. And so on. Okay. My rant is over. But, you get me. Just don't let "teh Internet" dictate the new "facts" to you and you should be good. :D
Having an element or two taken from RPGs doesn't make the game an RPG. It makes it action-adventure with minor RPG elements. Most games have similar features and we don't call everything an RPG just because you can use an item or change your weapon
You didn't really acknowledge character based progression which is a key thing for RPGs. Heart containers are technically optional since people have done 3 heart runs, and if you farm the same enemies over and over again, Link never gets stronger whereas a character does in any other RPG. I think games like Crystalis, Secret of Mana, Kingdom Hearts, and Ys have really set what an action RPG is, and Zelda is not really like those, it stays mostly in the action adventure realm. But everyone agrees Zelda 2 is an action RPG
According to your definition crono cross one of the greatest RPGs of all time is not an rpg either. You don't gain experience you can't farm enemies to level up.
I think there are more for points of Zelda being an RPG most of the time than not. MOST of the entries at least. 1) You name your character at the beginning 2) You increase health and mana through playing and conquering dungeons 3) can acquire and upgrade and switch out weapons and shields, equipment like boots and armor 4) gaining new abilities and equipment and upgrading them 5) boss levels often require a certain level, abilities and/or equipment
Upgrading your health and mana aren't necessarily an RPG thing within the context of the game. You level those things up by collecting certain requirements, whereas in an RPG those are stats that are usually increased through levelling your character. Completing the dungeon for example is always the requirement. Though in an RPG you have many options to level yourself up. Whether it's killing enemies, completing a dungeon, finishing a quest or exploration.
If you had friends over and they asked "Do you have any fruit to snack on?" and you handed them a tomato they would just laugh. A tomato is scientifically a fruit but is culinarily used as a vegetable. Zelda is a tomato. I would be surprised in the same way some I asked what your favorite RPGs are and your first answer is Zelda.
Might just be a generational thing. I’m an older millennial “Xennial” and Zelda was ALWAYS considered an RPG; at least where I grew up. Kinda like how Shmups (terrible name) used to be called Shooters and now First Person Shooters are just called Shooters by younger gamers instead of an FPS.
I replied to you about this on 'X', but I'll put my 2 cents here too.. Zelda is an Action/Adventure. Traditional Turn Based & Action RPG's are a Sub-Genre of Action/Adventure. So, in reality they're all in the same family IMO.
The Legend of Zelda is not a RPG It's a JRPG and that's a funny joke to tell everyone who still thinks The Legend of Zelda is not a JRPG. I love that Shigeru Miyamoto confirms both sides. Cool video. ^_^
This reminds me of conversations about punk and its subgenre. You get some people gatekeeping rhe ahit about it, and defining it in narrow terms, some allowing for a lot of wiggle room, and of course, people who really don't give a shit and just enjoy it.
I’m still not clear on WHY Zelda should be considered an RPG other than a vogue concept like “getting stronger” or that other people felt it is. Like there has to be more argument for Zelda being an RPG other than its fantasy and you can “upgrade” your character
Yeah there's no fuckin numbers in Zelda. And there's no "chance to miss/chance to hit". Having an element or two taken from RPGs doesn't make the game an RPG. It makes it action-adventure with minor RPG elements. Most games have similar features and we don't call everything an RPG just because you can use an item or change your weapon
Interesting video idea. I'd love to see more like analysis of gaming culture from our past compared to gaming culture today. It's interesting to remember how different we thought about all these games and genres.
This is kind of a never ending debate. Back then, Nintendo Power explained that Zelda is action-adventure, or maybe action-RPG, but it’s not exactly traditional RPG’s, which usually have more text, and experience points, etc. I think there is a meaningful difference, regardless the terminology.
Phantasy Star IV is my favorite traditional JRPG. Xp points, a changing group of characters, tons of text, space travel etc. You save a whole solar system! Then I play Zelda: Ocarina and it’s really just one solitary character, watching the rain in the graveyard
You never noticed the re-labeling of Zelda like games from Action RPG to Action Adventure? I think it happened around the time Diablo came out. Diablo was a true Action RPG because it had stats you can increase like Attack, Defense and so on. It also had character customization in the form of a skill tree where you can unlock certain abilities by spending skill points that you earn by leveling up. I just accepted it because it seemed a more specific and accurate description of game genres. I always preferred the action adventure games like Zelda, Alundra, and Monster World (Wonderboy spinoff) because I don't like the extra complication of RPG elements. These days I like games like Monster Boy and the Cursed Kingdom, and Shantae and the Seven Sirens which some call Metroidvanias, 3D Platformers (especially Spyro), and of course racing games like The Crew Motorfest, or Kart racers like Disney Speedstorm.
Yeah there's no fuckin numbers in Zelda. And there's no "chance to miss/chance to hit". Having an element or two taken from RPGs doesn't make the game an RPG. It makes it action-adventure with minor RPG elements. Most games have similar features and we don't call everything an RPG just because you can use an item or change your weapon
At the time, nobody really knew what game belonged to what genre, we just played them and enjoyed them. But nobody knew because video games were still too young as a medium.
You're not crazy for questioning this... you are crazy though for thinking this is a new question. This conversation absolutely happened back when those first came out. And you need to remember that these games, Kings Quest, along with text based things like Zork... were the very beginning of anyone considering any video game an "rpg." Prior to this, "RPG" meant dungeons and dragons which is an experience video games to this day haven't been able to fully recreate. Your point about every game meeting the technical definition of rpg is valid and something I thought about even at a child. I remember when funcoland used to have game pamphlets and some of the things they sorted into the rpg category were insane... like a football game... but yeah, technically it was correct. But after getting through the existential dread of realizing every hand was an rpg, I eventually decided I wasn't going to hold myself to such a loose definition. Interestingly, the original legend of Zelda, is without a doubt the game I credit the most with getting me into RPGs... but I've never really considered it one. It's a gateway drug to rpgs, but the rpg elements aren't really there... and it's got nothing to do with stats and level building. It's about the surrounding world. Save for a few random men in caves, you don't interact with anyone in Zelda. Aside from a few paragraphs in the manual and a scroll text when you first turn it on, there is no story. Nothing really develops AS you play. It's just a formulaic experience. Go to the next dungeon. Find the treasure. Kill the baddie. Repeat. In my book, an rpg requires some level of emotional connection to the player character. I love Link, but he's a replaceable sprite. The game would have been exactly the same if they had thrown Kirby or Mario in there. Nobody in game ever connects to him so no one playing really can either.
Things change with time and younger generations may look at it differently but to me (who played these games back when they first released); Zelda will always be a RPG. You can add "action" or "adventure" etc to it but you can't remove the "RPG".
I’m gonna agree with the King of Games himself. It’s really up to the gamer. You can call it whatever you like. To me, I always consider The Zelda series as Action Adventure games. 😂
I have always considered Zelda an action adventure RPG Myself. Nowadays a LOT of games have rpg elements. Fps even have a progression or level or equipment upgrades. Rpgs are just the best and the other genres figured it out. 😂🎉
To me a RPG game consists of an open world, in which you can freely explore talking to people, upgrading your gear, getting stronger throughout the adventure. With Zelda, there isn't in depth stats, your attack, defence isn't determined by numbers and it's simplified, you'll get heart upgrades, magic upgrades and other gear which helps explore the world, but weapons and armour upgrades are usually quite small in comparison to other RPG games. As far as RPG games go, Zelda is definitely a RPG game, but emphasises on being a more action, simplified one. No convoluted stats to track. In my opinion, a full on RPG game is more akin to the dungeon and dragons tabletop game. Stats and numbers everywhere! But both types of RPG, action and traditional share that one major thing, you're playing a ROLE, you decide where you go, who you talk to, how you decide what to do next. They both share that, it's just Zelda does it in a way that's more action than strategy and not so complicated with spending half your time in a menu trying to manage equipment...
Yeah there's no fuckin numbers in Zelda. And there's no "chance to miss/chance to hit". Having an element or two taken from RPGs doesn't make the game an RPG. It makes it action-adventure with minor RPG elements. Most games have similar features and we don't call everything an RPG just because you can use an item or change your weapon
I think that the series was established as a acton rpg when Zelda 2 came out, and the rest of the games sense then have included side quest's that are optional to play through, like in traditional rpg's.
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I think kingdom hearts is more close to being a conventional rpg where u level up than Zelda. And it has elements of exploration and adventure games too.
Zelda 2 for the NES, the best Zelda, is probably the closest to an rpg.
Hey
What was the music that you chose as background in this video at 5:14
Pac-Man is an action adventure survival horror game.
Not wrong!
LOL
Terminalmontage may convince me of that
I mean yeah, technically
Ghosts are scary
Snes Zelda Past remains one of the finest accomplishments of our time. The game is exceptionally crafted
Zelda is just Zelda. Does not matter what type of game it is. It is our childhood and will always be one of our favs.
These just get better and better. Love it man. It's an artform what you do with the material and you're a natural at this. Well done brotha and thank you
Thanks a ton! Appreciate it
I'm very intrigued by this entire conversation. I think it's important to consider time in this argument. Back in the 90s, the definition of RPG was so vague that one could consider a fighting game role-playing because you assume the role of a character. As time has progressed, RPGs have become more polarizing due to some gamers vehemently "not liking RPGs." Nowadays, there have been more features added to RPGs to help them stand apart so their audience can be more clearly defined. Looking through the lens of anyone in 1992: almost everything is an RPG. There just weren't enough variety of gameplay options yet to clearly build a wall between them and others. In modern times, Zelda just doesn't have enough defining qualities to be called an RPG. This is also why it's no longer listed on game boxes; they left that genre in the 90s.
Most games have features taken from RPGs and that doesn't make it an RPG, it has RPG elements
You can call it an RPG or not but we can all agree the The Legend of Zelda series is a great series
But it’s not rpg except for new breath series
@@Shinobi15 No, it's RPG. There are subtypes of RPGs.
@@WeSRT4 nope
@@Shinobi15 its an RPG moron.
@@Shinobi15 and mario kart isn't a racing game /s
Zelda was inspired by Rpgs and at the time the idea of what an rpg was was very flimsy. And so it was called one. But nowadays, now that it's very clear what elements an RPG actually contains Zelda is an action adventure title. Regardless of what you call it, it's still incredible.
Exactly how i feel about it couldn’t have said it better myself in my opinion Zelda is not a traditional RPG it has elements of the genre but it has always focused on exploration, puzzles, and combat not leveling up customization of your character or party members i feel as if it’s a action adventure game
I mean it's a fun discussion but in the end of the day does it matter how we label it? It's a classic , that's all that matters
The Zelda games never met that criteria of an RPG for me. I acknowledge that it is considered an action RPG franchise of course, but RPG to me always meant turn based, levels, etc. There's nothing wrong with ARPGs, I love em, but I have two distinct categories in my head canon. Strategy RPGs are a whole different category, I love me some Final Fantasy Tactics, Front Mission, Vandal Hearts, etc.
As far as Castlevania goes, I wouldn't consider any of them to fit the mold of RPG, though starting with SotN's direction they were definitely closer. I think it's fair to say platformer with RPG elements there.
Zelda is an Action Adventure ...the only "RPG" Element there is you get some Loot😂
@@KnowToChill saying Zelda isn't a RPG is like saying 7th saga isn't a RPG.
When you said that you might upset us I legit thought you were gonna talk about how you didn’t like Zelda and turned out to like it in the end further supported by the title lol
Its called click baiting.
Its personal for everyone but to me, a rpg has to have some sort of active experience system. You need to be able to level up skills and see a tangible difference with that leveling. Zelda is an action adventure game for me because it has progression based advancement. It's more like Metroid where you get to a point in the game and get an item/ability to let you get to the next. It's not like links attack power gets any stronger, he just acquires different swords. So thats how I look at it, you need to have some sort of experience system where each kill means something, which is why its more action adventure, again like Metroid. If Zelda is a RPG, Metroid is too.
You technically through the experience of playing the game upgrade your hearts and mana. In most of them any way.
Zelda 2, the best Zelda, actually does have an experience / level building system. Your attack gets stronger, your life bar takes less damage, and your magic spells use less magic when casting as you level them up.
Good time to bring up Dragon Quest (Warrior). Today would have been film, television, & video game composer Koichi Sugiyama's birthday.
Sugiyama-San worked on The 1st eleven Dragon Quest games (1986-2017).. and E.V.O.: Search for Eden (1992).
I remember playing E.V.O. I thought it was a lot of fun.
Zelda's are overhead action adventure games that have role playing elements,crept for Zelda 2 is a side scrolling action adventure game with role playing elements. Great episode Tyler, oh yeah, I just learned that you're Grandfather was an incredible comic book artist, whom I followed as a youngster and that fact blew my mind. Big fan and of yours as well, keep on killing it bro, and thanks 😅
14:54 That finale music from ALTTP gets me every time 🥹 takes me back to my tiny bedroom with the 9" tv on the dresser that i had to use a fork to turn on cuz the power switch was broken off.
I had a friend in 2nd grade that called my Sega Genesis a Nintendo. He insisted that even a PlayStation was a Nintendo. I think you would get along with him well
Haha!
Some people are mad that he brought out the RECEIPTS with his stance. Miyamoto himself said it. It said on the Japanese box 3Dアクションrpg (action rpg). To deny Zelda of any RPG status at all is silly, and often probably due to the fact that somebody doesn’t like it, and doesn’t want it grouped in with beloved FF’s or dragon quests.
@@colinDESU His recipes are wrong. Zelda boxes don't have a great track record of containing accurate information. The original Majora's Mask box says that it's a 4 player game and includes an illustration of 4 controllers. Miyamoto has said many times that Zelda is *not* an RPG and that he doesn't like them
@@jw3st0n show me the receipts for Miyamoto saying that and I’ll apologize.
@@colinDESU Go to Shigeru Miyamoto's wikipedia page and look at the last paragraph under Development philosophy. It's just before the "Impact" subheading. Wikipedia includes several references including a link to a September 14th 2003, Nintendo Official Magazine (UK) where Miyamoto says " I personally have a fundamental dislike of the RPG system" and tells why. I'll post some links, but they may not show up
Side note:
When you said your cousin learned to read from dragon warrior it really hit home for me, I taught myself to read and write when I was 3 because of the famous speak and spell from E.T.
Oh yes, there can be serious educational value in learning through games.
It literally put me years ahead of my peers.
Zelda has no complex stat system to really play a role, but uses few improvements in the form of items and weapons. But that's true for 90% of video games. A Gta with the Missions for different people (like quests) and possibilities to choose what to do with consequences and better stats by doing side quests would have even more of an rpg than Zelda. And even games with very similar elements as zelda like MediEvil are called action adventure, cause there is no real chance to play a role without complex stats to make it Immersive and highly impressionable. Therefore, Zelda should actually be classified as an action adventure with real-time RPG elements.
Per Wiki: "The Legend of Zelda[a] is an action-adventure game franchise created by the Japanese game designers Shigeru Miyamoto and Takashi Tezuka...The gameplay incorporates action-adventure and elements of action RPG games."
Other than "Zelda II: The Adventure of Link"; to my knowledge, all other games in the franchise are listed as "action adventure" titles on GameFAQS as well.
Your dad liked to put the game cartridges in plastic rental style cases and he modified the box artwork to fit in them. It’s hard to put them back in the cardboard boxes after taking them out.
Favorite Final Fantasy Games I’ve Beaten
1. VII
2. VII Remake
3. X
4. Tactics
5. VI
6. VIII
7. IX
8. IV
9. V
Favorite Final Fantasy Characters
1. Cloud (7)
2. Tifa (7R)
3. Auron (10)
4. Sephiroth (7)
5. Vivi (9)
6. Yuna (10)
7. Lulu (10)
8. Cid (7)
9. Yuffie (7R)
10. Aerith (7R)
11. Barret (7)
12. Red XIII (7)
13. Jessie (7R)
14. Sonon (7R)
15. Biggs (7R)
16. Steiner (9)
17. Zidane (9)
18. Wakka (10)
Dragon warrior was not an adventure is a turn-based RPG the purest type of RPG that possibly could ever exist
In my 90's mind, I would describe it as a story based adventure game.
The games that were text and menu heavy I considered RPG's at that time.
Yep! Ocarina of Time says "3D "アクション" (Action) RPG". I knew that since I was a kid that Zelda is not like a turn based RPG, but still an RPG.
It was not a RPG to me growing up. Everything has elements of something else but what is at the core. At its core, Zelda is an action adventure. I need to have some in depth character building for it to be an RPG. I feel like when you call Zelda an RPG, you are trying to get off on a technicality. I love this channel, even when you are wrong, lol. I look forward to your next video!
80s kid here. I never played Legend of Zelda games as a kid until 'A Link To The Past' on SNES. My introduction to 'RPGs' was Ironsword: Wizards & Warriors II. The story, the music, the graphics.... it just checked all the boxes for my tiny lil' heart. Questing & platforming through caves, dungeons, waterfalls and chasms to find golden items for giant animal kings is the stuff that gets my gaming motor running.
I'm diagnosed with ADHD, so faster-paced games that don't require long stretches of focus and "grinding" will keep me from being alienated. Clearly, somebody at Rare Coin-It thought the same thing when they made the W&W series for the NES.
Put simply: Art -whether it's a video game or not- of ANY sort is without bounderies. It's best expressed when painted outside the lines. We use the term "RPG" so magazines and retailers can properly categorize it. We the consumers take the term that much further with our passion and dedication. Nothing more.
I have to completely disagree with those that think Legend of Zelda games are "RPG", RPGs and even "Action RPGs" have stats based in some part on the categories of stats derived from and can be traced back to Dungeons & Dragons, and has character(s) that can be be leveled up with some kind of Experience Points by either killing monsters or doing certain tasks. LOZ is an action adventure game with some RPG-ish elements.
I'm older than that.... I always thought it was an "Action / Adventure" Game.
I work in Shanghai. A British colleague told me about Magic Spoon so I imported it for an ungodly amount of money. It was worth it.
Consider this: Zelda II is the one game in the series that almost everyone can agree is an RPG and is at the same time almost universally labeled the franchise's "black sheep".
But that’s also because its side scrolling, and yes I know links awakening and other Gameboy Zelda’s have sections like that but links adventure was just so much more different then every other game with or with out the leveling system
Seeing your home videos in 60fps makes me extremely happy inside. It's just so refreshing to see!
Glad you enjoy it! It’s 60 fps or bust for me haha
My definition of an RPG is based on a misunderstanding I had as a kid. I thought it was Roll Playing Game, not Role Playing Game; so to me RPGs were games where everything's based on dice rolls.
To me, Zelda's kind of it's own thing, I don't personally consider it an RPG; since there's no dice rolls going on behind the scenes determining your damage and whatnot. But I totally get the argument that it's an RPG.
First of all, I LOVE your channel. Watching this video (and others you uploaded) I can tell the difference between the first and third world. I'm from Argentina and here things from the 80s only arrived in the early 90s. Here no one had an original console or cartridges due to their high cost, so the "Family Game" was very popular, a clone of the Japanese Famicom. We never knew an original game with a box and manual, so we had to grow up discovering the controls, maps and other aspects of the games (not to mention that most of them were in English or Japanese). On the other hand, franchises like Zelda or Metroid were not well known in these latitudes; We usually had "bootleg" cartridges like "75 games in 1", which did not include those titles. We met those franchises in later console generations. Lastly, Nintendo was always very expensive here, it was rare to see someone with a Game Boy, SNES or N64. Most had the 8-bit Family Game, then some Sega Genesis clone (for example, I had the "Super Senga"), and in the 3D generation, PlayStation more than N64, especially because of pirated games. I think we missed a lot of the game experience, but I'm not complaining, we made do with what we had and were happy.
9:20 I would argue that the term was more nebulous back in the day. Since the Zelda clones shared a similar theme to games like Final Fantasy, Dragon Warrior, etc, they were lumped into the same genre, probably to help market the games.
I 100% agree with you on your take. Zelda games have rpg elements through story and NPCs and leveling up not just through heart containers, but in the original and link to the past you have rings and mail, plus sword upgrades. What happened was UA-camrs came out with their own opinions on things and that became gospel.
I think RPG has taken on a more specific meaning. When I think of RPG, I think of games of midlevel or ancient times that consist of deep character development, Games that utilize spells/magic/potions, games that have an in-depth leveling system/skill system that is much more than just beating a level/platform. These games also have a very rich and in-depth storyline. All of these elements make up an RPG. If a game has one or a couple of these elements, they aren't considered an RPG, but have one or more RPG elements.
Monster Hunter is an action RPG with no leveling up at all. Just upgrades…which all Zelda games have to different degrees. Especially modern Zelda now. TOTK even has a “party” that fights with you, and abilities you can have them use with you. You can upgrade them, your clothes, and even upgrade your weapons via fuse, hearts and stamina. Its an action adventure RPG or just an action RPG.
I've always thought of them as action RPGs as well. They were my gateway to jrpgs
I love that NES Advantage controller. I remember my mom buying me that for like $45 if I remember correctly and this controller helped me beat my favorite game of all time, Blaster Master because of the slow motion option for the 5th stage boss, THE CRAB. LMAO
Zelda isn’t a role playing game. In some games it shares elements of RGPs in some games but it’s mostly an action adventure game.
exactly
"RPG" comes from tabletop games with dice, stats, level ups, and so on. While we were playing Nintendo games, older gamers had Western RPGs on PCs, like Ultima, which is where JRPGs came from. So really what happened was a generation gap: gen X Americans had "real" RPGs on PCs, but millenials preferred consoles from Japanese makers, so we didn't learn about "real" RPGs until the Japanese decided we were ready for them in the mid 90s.
Your dad is a great man! Watching your videos, I just have so much admiration for your father. Of course, your content is top notch as well! I just wanted to give you a shout out man and let you know that!
My understanding is there are ARPGs like Zelda, JRPGs descended from Dragon Quest, CRPGs that descend from Ultima and Wizardry, and SRPGs like Fire Emblem or Ogre Battle.
I think the definition of RPG has changed as games have grown in number and diversity. I think back in the day, having a game with a lot of words which you read to get a grasp of the story as a main aspect of the draw is what really gave it the RPG label. Over time the "RPG" titles really broke into different groups based on the gameplay more than the experience. If someone says to me "RPG", they are talking about a turn-based (maybe with some time elements sometimes) battle system where you select your moves from a list, with a specific battle mode and exploring mode. So Dragon Warrior is about as RPG as RPGs can get, but also basically every final fantasy game. Games like castlevania, metroid, and zelda games I would not consider RPGs, although there is a hint of it in them.
I have always considered Zelda an RPG. You get the chance to expand your characters stats through exploration and equipment. Not all stats are required but there is still a grind if you want max load. Just because there aren't stats involved to me doesn't make it inherently not an RPG. As long as the game gives you the choice to buff yourself or just get through it at bare minimum meets my requirements of an RPG type game. I remember debating this with friends in the 90's, some of them thought an RPG had to be turned based with numbers but I thought all of that was semantics when the real RPG aesthetic was get through the game while increasing your characters power to the point where you feel you are ready to complete the mission as long as the point A and B allowed.
Did you own Wind Waker, Four Swords Adventures and Twilight Princess? They also made a collector’s edition for GameCube with all the original Zelda titles.
I agree with you. If you look at BOTW the more you fight enemies the stronger you get. I pretty sure there’s a hidden level system in it. Certainly bigger enemies become easier each time. OOT is similar as you grow more as you progress. It’s an interesting way to view a game series as Zelda. 😊👍
I remember this debate back when I used to creep around Zelda message boards in the early 2000s. I'd say a lot of genres weren't really well defined at that time. That's why a game with light RPG elements like Zelda would get lumped in with traditional RPGs like Dragon Quest (Warrior at the time) and Final Fantasy.
In reality, though, Zelda is the quintessential action-adventure game. Zelda has more in common with other action-adventure games like God of War or even Grand Theft Auto than it does with games like Persona or Baldur's Gate. I suppose Zelda is at least a bit similar to action RPGs like Kingdom Hearts, but calling Zelda an action RPG for that reason is a slippery slope to just calling every action-adventure and action RPG, which does a disservice to both genres.
If the term RPG is broad enough to include Zelda (or any game, as you mentioned), then why is it an important that we recognize Zelda as an RPG? There has to be *something* distinctive about an RPG from your perspective, otherwise you wouldn't bother laboring to defend Zelda as an RPG. Genres should be distinctive. The more broadly genre-terms are used, the less meaningful they become. Can we also call Zelda a shoot-em-up? You do shoot arrows after all. -- Sorry for the long comments. No disrespect. Love your videos.
I think the only Zelda game that could even be considered an RPG is the second game since you actually level different stats in that game. For pretty much every entry that I can remember though, the games are Action Adventure. An RPG needs to have a levelling system that you can invest in to form the character or play style you want.
Yeah there's no fuckin numbers in Zelda. And there's no "chance to miss/chance to hit". Having an element or two taken from RPGs doesn't make the game an RPG. It makes it action-adventure with minor RPG elements. Most games have similar features and we don't call everything an RPG just because you can use an item or change your weapon
When I was kid i always viewed RPGs as games where you selected commands in a menu and watch your characters fight, like Final Fantasy/Mario RPG. Games where you control your character in real time to fight I always viewed as "Adventure" games. Even so, I don't have any problems calling Zelda an RPG, and I think it's 100% fair to call Zelda an Action/Adventure RPG.
Zelda and Final Fantasy are both similar in that characters grow both in the storytelling and through acquiring stronger items, weapons, and magic throughout their adventure.
The main difference for me is that in Final Fantasy a character also gets stronger as their levels/EXP points increase, whereas in Zelda, Link only gets stronger proportionate to the players gaming skills/ gaming experience.
The creator of The Legend of Zelda referred to Link as Zelda in that article you show around the seven minute mark. Something to the effect of, "We changed the graphics. So we had to change the way Zelda swings his sword." Was he not Link in the OG Zelda game? Now my head is spinning.
Jeez Tyler...didnt have a wasp nest to swat at today? couldnt find a puppy to kick on camera?
Is Legend of Zelda an RPG? something something 10 ft pole...something something 3rd rail. LOL.
I hope this goes super viral for ya Brother because the subject should bring out the feels and the trolls.
Am I crazy thinking Zelda is an RPG? What do you think? Thanks for watching guys.
We’re all pretty much bat dung looney toons 😂
I would say it's an action adventure game, but in the end nobody can prevent you from identifying as Link while playing it. In that sense I guess it's an "RP-able-game.
Do I make sense?
Zelda 2 for the NES, the best Zelda, is the closest to an rpg. The experience / leveling up of attack, life (defense), and magic (point usage) are definitely rpg features. It has magic use kind of like an rpg. It lacks the acquisition of better equipment though.
I have never seen Zelda series as an rpg, always thought of the franchise as an action adventure series.
not crazy, just sloppy
This is like Strategy games and Real Time Strategy, or RTS. Strategy games is turn based, it waits for you to make your moves then the next player makes their moves, on and on. RTS everything happens at the same time. Same here, a RPG turns are taken, and an Action RPG everything happens at once. To be an Action RPG it needs a leveling system of some sort, and I guess getting better gear can be considered leveling up. I've always called games that are real time but have a leveling system as Action RPG.
I consider The Legend of Zelda an RPG. Also it’s nice to see this new video pop up from you today, Tyler.
Me and many of your Patreons are always looking forward to the new content.
Appreciate y’all so much! Thanks for the support
RPGs especially from the 80s 90s were table top games in video game form. Table top games were called RPGs. So the video game version is also an rpg. Zelda IS NOT an rpg. There's more to genre than the literal definition of the words. Every game is not an rpg
@@joshbrucks can we at least agree that there are some elements to an RPG in the Zelda genre?
@@joshbruckswell Mr. Miyamoto would beg to differ.
I consider my band to be a country music band, however most people seem to think we play death metal
I love Manny and Mikey's haircut. It makes me know they were in good hands. 😊
Due to the lack of an expirience system in most zelda titles I call the series action adventure games.
But I can see how some people disagree on that. Noone get hurt for disagreeing here.
What I haven't seen before is someone that calls the Zelda series role playing games but SOTN not?
This is some confusing stuff. And I remember when Larry Bundy Jr called the Atari Jaguar 64 bit and the Sega Dreamcast a 32bit machine.
And the whole argument of Myamoto saying it counts as one, doesn't matter in the slightest. The Inventor of the gif said it's pronounced "Jif" to which I say gif stands for Graphics Interchange Format. Unless you change the legal pronouciation of the word graphics, it will be called gif.
I'd argue that most Final Fantasy or Dragon Quest games also aren't RPGs, since usually you're following a pretty set story with set characters, not role playing. I think we call these games RPGs because they have mechanics that function similar to tabletop RPG mechanics. So I think "Adventure" describe Zelda, Final Fantasy, etc better than RPG ever could
I feel that as the industry has evolved, so have the genres and the way we classify games within them. Most games are going to have qualities that borrow from MULTIPLE genres making it nearly impossible to divide them up in a way everyone's going to agree on.
Having an element or two taken from RPGs doesn't make the game an RPG. It makes it action-adventure with minor RPG elements. Most games have similar features and we don't call everything an RPG just because you can use an item or change your weapon
Hey Tyler I don't know if you remember me the guy living in Japan LOL. But the bottom of the box says ACTION RPG. Just a quick correction cause I read Japanese LOL. But regardless I always considered Zelda as an Action adventure type of game. So sorry Tyler LOL. Congrats on your success I knew you would make it and keep on the good work I love the videos :).
Perhaps the real question is: IS there a specific name to categorize Zelda games under? I don't think so. Miyamoto is such a genius, inspired by so many things, that he was able to create a genre on its own with Zelda.
Having an element or two taken from RPGs doesn't make the game an RPG. It makes it action-adventure with minor RPG elements. Most games have similar features and we don't call everything an RPG just because you can use an item or change your weapon
Agreed with Francis; all of those games are RPG’s. They all fall into their own sub genre of RPG depending what they lean more forwards. Zelda is absolutely a RPG game and always has been.
In a way, Legend of Zelda is an RPG, yet It wasn't exactly as traditional as Final Fantasy in terms of gameplay and progress, It has the elements of adventure and the story talking place on a medieval setting. If It wasn't for Legend of Zelda, what would have been of the Darksiders game series and many other games.
A medieval setting doesn't inherently make something an rpg
@@pokekiller787x yeah, true but at the time, It was the most common atmosphere an RPG and thier respective clones (Final Fantasy or Zelda clones). I don't remember of there was a futuristic RPG on the 80's, the only ones that I remember talking place on a futuristic Sci -Fi or maybe Steampunk setting were Chrono Trigger and Shadowrun. But if you happen to know one from the 80s I would like to know, I'm helping on a game Review channel and another suggestion of a game to review would be great.
@cpl.barbarusc4814 It's very true that the setting is extremely common in RPGs. There is an RPG called Lagrange Point for the Famicom, but if you don't speak Japanese, it requires an English patch to play. That wasn't the 80s, though. It was in 91.
@@pokekiller787x Lagrange Point huh? I'm a sucker of japanese Sci-Fi so I could give this a go, and hopefully with patch or at least on an emulator, just to take a looksy.
A Japanese Role Playing game is a game that that uses stats to simulate combat, like the games that inspired the genre, Wizardry and Ultima (Not D&D,) . Zelda is an Action Adventure game
River City Ransom is the greatest RPG ever🔥
nope, nba 2k11 is.
Your both wrong... Pong is clearly the best rpg.
River city ransom is a beat em up RPG not an RPG sheesh
Super Mario Brothers 3 is dude you have an item inventory and shit so
To me RPGs have always been about stats.
I even considered San Andreas an RPG because you had a strength, stamina, and weight stat.
But there is something about Link that makes him special. You can name the character after yourself, or anyone for that matter, and I think that really makes you feel like you ARE Link. Unlike playing as Mario or Masterchief.
But then to contradict that, I'll even say games like FF6 or Chrono Trigger don't register as an RPG to me because you're controlling a party and not an individual. I feel like I'm just an outside observer tagging along with the gang for their adventure, it's more like a "party adventure". Another example, Kingdom Hearts is technically a RPG with stats but feels much more like an action party adventure too.
At the end of the day, I feel every game is it's own unique scenario. No right or wrong. RPG is in the eye of the beholder.
Great food for thought though! Love your content!
I used to consider it an RPG before I knew much about the genre. Aside from Zelda 2, I think it's on the borderline of the action adventure and action RPG genres.
In Australia our main arcade chain back in the 90's used to be a place called Timezone, i remember when i was young me and my brothers would go to the "lock in" nights where youre locked in for a fee and all games were unlimited did u have those in usa?
I think of them as action adventure games because there is no leveling system, but when you get down to it, who cares? As you pointed out towards the beginning of the video, most games meet the most base-level definition of RPG, that being a game in which you take on a role. So long as the games are enjoyable, that's all that really matters.
I also think people mix up the terms of RPG and Turn-based games (ie. Final Fantasy). However Zelda series is the OG Action-Adventure
The wii u eshop actually considered Zelda to be a rpg
I remember the 3ds eshop also labeled the phoenix wright games as rpgs, and I don't think a single person considers them that
I never really know where to put Zelda. To me, JRPGs were my first introduction to RPGs and what I largely considered RPGs for a long time. I realized as I got older it's a bit wider of a genre than that. They call some things RPGs these days that really aren't. Back to Zelda... at the end of the day I don't really care where people choose to place it when they describe it. I love the series regardless.
12:48 Well, yes, it has heart containers and item upgrades that grow your character. But so does Metroid (tanks instead of hearts), and nobody calls that an RPG, then or now. And Metal Gear too, you grow your max health and rank and get better weapons and items to take on stronger enemies. Also, not thought of as an RPG series. Even if you are Playing the Role of a character in both of those Games.
I think the real disconnect is that the term RPG wasn't well defined early on. And over the years it's gotten more and more strictly defined. Especially since so many modern games include "RPG Elements" in them, which usually means that there is some sort of experience points/leveling system. So we now expect that an RPG has to have some sort of experience points/leveling system in it. And Zelda does not, other than Zelda II.
But speaking of Zelda II, the series does however usually have towns and people to talk to and gather information about the current dilemma, and big open worlds and dungeons to explore and a long story in a fantasy setting. Which are all further staples of the genre.
So imho, with those things in addition to how the character progression happens (even if it's not experience points based), that puts it more firmly in the RPG genre.
I think it has to be checked game by game. BOTW and TOTK have a lot of RPG elements in them. Ocarina of Time and A Link to the Past are more like action-adventure games where new areas open based on items, and you don't grow if you don't want to. Zelda II, in terms of elements, is very close to an RPG, but the combat diverges from the typical RPG definition.
None of my friends or I liked Zelda during the NES/SNES era. It looked like watching grass grow. Like literally a chore to do, not a game. Or playing chess. Only one kid liked it in my friend group and I have no idea why. To Zelda’s credit though - BOTW is one of my favorite games now.
The reason why so many people have "beef" with Zelda is because its a big franchise. Like its BIG. So people are going to say things. If it were a smaller or lesser known game, nobody would even be talking about it.
I think RPG is just a blanket term that nobody really uses the same way. The roll some may say is your job that you pick. Mage, warrior, ranger etc. many games lack that and people just say it’s an RPG because it has a skill tree. People started calling assassin’s creed an RPG now. A skill tree doesn’t make a game an rpg.
I think RPGs in the traditional sense is a game where you pick a class(or one is assigned to you and the members of your party) and have stats like strength, dexterity, intelligence etc. stemming from tabletop D&D
When I think of RPG, I think of the modern interpretation of it - level up, stats, skill trees, etc. But I completely agree with your take. Assuming the role of a character where you have some autonomy in developing them is the core of a “role playing” game. It doesn’t have to be a custom character, you don’t need experience points, or dialogue trees. These are just popular mechanics.
Zelda is an action RPG!
great topic, and good video! personally the legend of zelda is an action-adventure in my book, has way more in common with the action and puzzle solving of action adventure games in game design. i get why people feel its an rpg because you can free roam from town to route to dungeon, and its medieval fantasy which, lets be honest, is dominated by rpgs. i think in NA Zelda was marketed as action-adventure primarily due the the design elements which adhered to AAs from Europe and North America, but it seems that in Japan the series was marketed more as adventure-rpg/action-rpg. either way call it what you feel like calling it (= my journey with zelda started in 1999 and my basis was tomb raider and final fantasy vii. back then i was like this game has way more in common with tomb raider than final fantasy
I have always thought of the Zelda games as RPGs, because that's what we called them back in the day.
So often these days do I see modern gamers or whomever try to dictate some new take on whatever thing we've all known for decades that they are now trying to force everyone to think of otherwise, and they somehow think they know better, when they just don't.
I'm not a fan of their rewriting of or revisionist history at all.
And, yup, SotN is an action platformer; it's definitely not an RPG. Just as shoot 'em up or "shump" does not mean any old game where you shoot things either. It almost always means scrolling shooters where you fly something around the screen while blasting away at things, like classic Gradius, R-Type, Super Aleste, U.N. Quadron, etc. Smash TV and Xeno Crisis (welcome to the recently released SNES version), for example, are not shmups. Those are something else, like twin stick shooters or Robotron clones. And run 'n' gun games like Contra, Gunstar Heroes and Cuphead are not shmups; they're run 'n' gun games. House of the Dead and Time Crisis are not shmups as the Wikipedia "shoot 'em up" page might have you believe; they're arcade-style [light]gun games.
It's also kinda like how Apple's marketing team brainwashed everyone into saying x amount "thin", so everyone knows just how thin their devices are, when the phrase is correctly said as x amount thick (regardless of how amazingly thin it is).
And it's not "addicting"; it's addictive: This game is so dang addictive that I just can't put it down.
And so on.
Okay. My rant is over. But, you get me. Just don't let "teh Internet" dictate the new "facts" to you and you should be good. :D
AAMEN! 100%
Damn straight.
Having an element or two taken from RPGs doesn't make the game an RPG. It makes it action-adventure with minor RPG elements. Most games have similar features and we don't call everything an RPG just because you can use an item or change your weapon
@@vacantseaofplanetsDoesn't change my point.
You didn't really acknowledge character based progression which is a key thing for RPGs. Heart containers are technically optional since people have done 3 heart runs, and if you farm the same enemies over and over again, Link never gets stronger whereas a character does in any other RPG. I think games like Crystalis, Secret of Mana, Kingdom Hearts, and Ys have really set what an action RPG is, and Zelda is not really like those, it stays mostly in the action adventure realm. But everyone agrees Zelda 2 is an action RPG
this is the simplest, and most technical explanation. great example on farming enemies to gain exp.
According to your definition crono cross one of the greatest RPGs of all time is not an rpg either. You don't gain experience you can't farm enemies to level up.
@@chrisjohnson9542 does it not have a leveling system? I've never played chrono cross
@@chrisjohnson9542 Crono Cross has a levelling system. So it is an RPG
I think there are more for points of Zelda being an RPG most of the time than not. MOST of the entries at least. 1) You name your character at the beginning 2) You increase health and mana through playing and conquering dungeons 3) can acquire and upgrade and switch out weapons and shields, equipment like boots and armor 4) gaining new abilities and equipment and upgrading them 5) boss levels often require a certain level, abilities and/or equipment
Upgrading your health and mana aren't necessarily an RPG thing within the context of the game. You level those things up by collecting certain requirements, whereas in an RPG those are stats that are usually increased through levelling your character. Completing the dungeon for example is always the requirement. Though in an RPG you have many options to level yourself up. Whether it's killing enemies, completing a dungeon, finishing a quest or exploration.
If you had friends over and they asked "Do you have any fruit to snack on?" and you handed them a tomato they would just laugh. A tomato is scientifically a fruit but is culinarily used as a vegetable. Zelda is a tomato. I would be surprised in the same way some I asked what your favorite RPGs are and your first answer is Zelda.
Might just be a generational thing. I’m an older millennial “Xennial” and Zelda was ALWAYS considered an RPG; at least where I grew up.
Kinda like how Shmups (terrible name) used to be called Shooters and now First Person Shooters are just called Shooters by younger gamers instead of an FPS.
Zelda is an action adventure series. Only Zelda 2 is an rpg.
I replied to you about this on 'X', but I'll put my 2 cents here too.. Zelda is an Action/Adventure. Traditional Turn Based & Action RPG's are a Sub-Genre of Action/Adventure. So, in reality they're all in the same family IMO.
The Legend of Zelda is not a RPG It's a JRPG and that's a funny joke to tell everyone who still thinks The Legend of Zelda is not a JRPG. I love that Shigeru Miyamoto confirms both sides. Cool video. ^_^
This reminds me of conversations about punk and its subgenre. You get some people gatekeeping rhe ahit about it, and defining it in narrow terms, some allowing for a lot of wiggle room, and of course, people who really don't give a shit and just enjoy it.
*subgenres plural
God, I wish I could edot my commentam I'm bad with typos.
I’m still not clear on WHY Zelda should be considered an RPG other than a vogue concept like “getting stronger” or that other people felt it is. Like there has to be more argument for Zelda being an RPG other than its fantasy and you can “upgrade” your character
Yeah there's no fuckin numbers in Zelda. And there's no "chance to miss/chance to hit". Having an element or two taken from RPGs doesn't make the game an RPG. It makes it action-adventure with minor RPG elements. Most games have similar features and we don't call everything an RPG just because you can use an item or change your weapon
Interesting video idea. I'd love to see more like analysis of gaming culture from our past compared to gaming culture today. It's interesting to remember how different we thought about all these games and genres.
This is kind of a never ending debate. Back then, Nintendo Power explained that Zelda is action-adventure, or maybe action-RPG, but it’s not exactly traditional RPG’s, which usually have more text, and experience points, etc. I think there is a meaningful difference, regardless the terminology.
Phantasy Star IV is my favorite traditional JRPG. Xp points, a changing group of characters, tons of text, space travel etc. You save a whole solar system! Then I play Zelda: Ocarina and it’s really just one solitary character, watching the rain in the graveyard
You never noticed the re-labeling of Zelda like games from Action RPG to Action Adventure? I think it happened around the time Diablo came out. Diablo was a true Action RPG because it had stats you can increase like Attack, Defense and so on. It also had character customization in the form of a skill tree where you can unlock certain abilities by spending skill points that you earn by leveling up. I just accepted it because it seemed a more specific and accurate description of game genres. I always preferred the action adventure games like Zelda, Alundra, and Monster World (Wonderboy spinoff) because I don't like the extra complication of RPG elements. These days I like games like Monster Boy and the Cursed Kingdom, and Shantae and the Seven Sirens which some call Metroidvanias, 3D Platformers (especially Spyro), and of course racing games like The Crew Motorfest, or Kart racers like Disney Speedstorm.
Yeah there's no fuckin numbers in Zelda. And there's no "chance to miss/chance to hit". Having an element or two taken from RPGs doesn't make the game an RPG. It makes it action-adventure with minor RPG elements. Most games have similar features and we don't call everything an RPG just because you can use an item or change your weapon
At the time, nobody really knew what game belonged to what genre, we just played them and enjoyed them. But nobody knew because video games were still too young as a medium.
You're not crazy for questioning this... you are crazy though for thinking this is a new question. This conversation absolutely happened back when those first came out. And you need to remember that these games, Kings Quest, along with text based things like Zork... were the very beginning of anyone considering any video game an "rpg." Prior to this, "RPG" meant dungeons and dragons which is an experience video games to this day haven't been able to fully recreate.
Your point about every game meeting the technical definition of rpg is valid and something I thought about even at a child. I remember when funcoland used to have game pamphlets and some of the things they sorted into the rpg category were insane... like a football game... but yeah, technically it was correct.
But after getting through the existential dread of realizing every hand was an rpg, I eventually decided I wasn't going to hold myself to such a loose definition. Interestingly, the original legend of Zelda, is without a doubt the game I credit the most with getting me into RPGs... but I've never really considered it one. It's a gateway drug to rpgs, but the rpg elements aren't really there... and it's got nothing to do with stats and level building. It's about the surrounding world. Save for a few random men in caves, you don't interact with anyone in Zelda. Aside from a few paragraphs in the manual and a scroll text when you first turn it on, there is no story. Nothing really develops AS you play. It's just a formulaic experience. Go to the next dungeon. Find the treasure. Kill the baddie. Repeat. In my book, an rpg requires some level of emotional connection to the player character. I love Link, but he's a replaceable sprite. The game would have been exactly the same if they had thrown Kirby or Mario in there. Nobody in game ever connects to him so no one playing really can either.
Things change with time and younger generations may look at it differently but to me (who played these games back when they first released); Zelda will always be a RPG. You can add "action" or "adventure" etc to it but you can't remove the "RPG".
I’m gonna agree with the King of Games himself. It’s really up to the gamer. You can call it whatever you like. To me, I always consider The Zelda series as Action Adventure games. 😂
I have always considered Zelda an action adventure RPG Myself. Nowadays a LOT of games have rpg elements. Fps even have a progression or level or equipment upgrades. Rpgs are just the best and the other genres figured it out. 😂🎉
To me a RPG game consists of an open world, in which you can freely explore talking to people, upgrading your gear, getting stronger throughout the adventure.
With Zelda, there isn't in depth stats, your attack, defence isn't determined by numbers and it's simplified, you'll get heart upgrades, magic upgrades and other gear which helps explore the world, but weapons and armour upgrades are usually quite small in comparison to other RPG games.
As far as RPG games go, Zelda is definitely a RPG game, but emphasises on being a more action, simplified one. No convoluted stats to track.
In my opinion, a full on RPG game is more akin to the dungeon and dragons tabletop game. Stats and numbers everywhere!
But both types of RPG, action and traditional share that one major thing, you're playing a ROLE, you decide where you go, who you talk to, how you decide what to do next. They both share that, it's just Zelda does it in a way that's more action than strategy and not so complicated with spending half your time in a menu trying to manage equipment...
Yeah there's no fuckin numbers in Zelda. And there's no "chance to miss/chance to hit". Having an element or two taken from RPGs doesn't make the game an RPG. It makes it action-adventure with minor RPG elements. Most games have similar features and we don't call everything an RPG just because you can use an item or change your weapon
It's an RPG. End of story.
I think that the series was established as a acton rpg when Zelda 2 came out, and the rest of the games sense then have included side quest's that are optional to play through, like in traditional rpg's.