I experimented with the recovery drink on my recent backpacking trip (minus the caffeine due to severe outdoor induced insomnia). Multiday hikes ruin me and I can barely function for days after finishing. I get home, "nap" for hours, wake up, go to bed really early, lie in and repeat the next day and still feel absolutely wrecked, to the point I won't eat. The weather hit 31c/88f with high humidity, with non-existent shade. The most I’ve ever hiked is 18.2 mi/29.2 km (in cool weather and carrying less). This trip I beat my personal record on the 2nd day (20.2 mi/32.5 km) and equalled my ascent record. The last 4 miles were a rollercoaster of hills designed to destroy legs. I didn’t plan to go that far but I reached my finish point with fuel still in the tank so I continued for another 3 miles, adding 872ft to my ascent. I drank this within 30 mins of stopping on each day. I don’t feel wrecked and I didn’t get the violent post exercise shivers like usual. I came home, had a small nap (because of the insomnia), woke up, done some chores, went to bed and woke up at a normal time. I feel good, tired in a good way but not utterly destroyed. I didn’t expect any difference at all, or for it to be marginal. I don’t feel this is a coincidence because I had more variables that were working against a positive outcome (excessive heat, humidity, backpack weight, lockdown meaning I was unfit, carrying more body weight and not conditioned) but it seems to have worked like magic. This may very well be a game changer for me, it's quite exciting. Thank you.
You appreciate our time ? All this research took hours. It has taken less than 45 minutes to watch it. Thanks for the research and for posting this video. Very helpful for those that want the best diet for hiking. You've given us all the info needed to make the right choices.
My wife is a dietitian and clapped at the end of the first video...so there's that. These are incredibly informative and will definitely change the way we pack for backpacking trips!
I am currently out on the Appalachian Trail attempting a 2023 thru-hike. I can absolutely say that after a day of hiking I would normally be sore and stiff but I'm using the recovery drink mix and feel absolutely ready to go the next day with no ill effects of the previous days hiking.
“Or your money back”, is a similar kind of humor that I use. I put my patients to sleep for surgery. They routinely are worried about waking up. I tell them, “You’ll wake up, guaranteed, or your money back”. Kentucky
I'm over 60 yrs old and was absolutely wrecked after a 17 mile hike in training for a 80 mile trek later this summer. I took a dose of Mike's Mix before I cooled down. The next morning, aside from a sore knee, I felt like I hadn't even hiked the day before. Couldn't believe it. Thanks so much for what you've worked so hard to bring to us.
Per requests, I uploaded an Excel version of the Hiker Food Chart. Now you can group, sort, add to, or edit the data as you like! Link to the new download: www.mediafire.com/file/lqsrekfp3it3qwu/Hiker_Food_Chart.xlsx/file Some Technical Notes: You may note that Column G is hidden. I created an independent calculation of total calories (Column F "kcal" that is displayed simply comes from the Calories listed on the product's food label). The USDA, however, allows manufacturers to round off calorie counts to the nearest 10 (above a certain number). I wanted a more precise count so Column G was created to compute the calories directly from the number of grams of each macronutrient listed, wherein each gram of fat = 9 Calories, carbs = 4, and protein = 4. In many cases, the two Calorie counts are similar (e.g. 240 on the label, 246 computed) and theoretically the computed number should be the most accurate. In some instances, however, the calorie discrepancy is larger (10, 15, or even over 20 calories). I have a few theories why this might be: 1) I have found differences between a product's food label and the Nutrition Info for the same product on its website. I have to assume these differences are due to errors made by the manufacturer. 2) There could be some compounding of rounding errors (they are allowed to round off gram counts for macronutrients as well) 3) I could have made data entry errors when making the spreadsheet 4) It is possible the food manufacturers "cheat" the calorie counts sometimes to make their products look less fattening, since a conspicuously large number of the discrepancies show the food label undercounting calories compared to just multiplying out the value of each ingredient. 5) There could be issues with how certain special ingredients are handled in terms of calories vs their gram weights. An example might be sugar alcohols, which have normal theoretical calorie density for carbs, but aren't supposed to metabolize fully (so maybe the label discounts those calories?). I used computed calories for two calculations: the Fat % and Sugar % columns. I mention it in case anyone wants to adjust the formulas. Lastly, I used conditional formatting to shade cells in the columns that use color-coding (the Keys are on Tab 2). Sometimes, conditional formatting isn't supported on other platforms and the colors may not come out right (using the Numbers spreadsheet app on my iPad has been an example of this problem). Happy sorting!
This is amazing, but curiuos if you know the formula we can use in the Menu Planner tab to pull over food items. I am sure some form of an "=IF" function would work but I am such a beginner when it comes to Excel. But essentially if you type the brand, flavor, and class correctly then the nutritional profile fields will automatically move over. Does that make sense? Any ideas on how to do that?
@@colbypark1311 There is actually a separate video on the Menu Planner (it is a feature that was added later), but basically you just do a standard cut-and-paste from the regular chart.
Thank you. Your videos and spreadsheets thus far has been informative, enlightening, refreshing and all around tremendously enjoyable. It has been far too long since I've happened upon content this seemingly genuine yet well thought out and executed, let alone content so relevant and likely revolutionize aspects of my current interests. Very much looking forward to the upcoming hydration video and to see what the future holds for this channel. Please enjoy all of my likes and subscribes, I even rang that bell.
Thank you for the chart, the research, and the entertainment! Eagerly anticipating your next video. My only advice is to be skeptical not just of anecdotes but also single studies; these very often fail to replicate. That said, you don't need a meta analysis to see you're doing something right - just need a scale. Cheers and bon appetit
Love your videos. I'd really like to request a "This is my food load-out for X days" video. Obviously other people would vary from that but it could provide some good practical application of the mountain of data you've provided in this series. Keep up the good work.
Good idea! I really should have done that. I'm thinking it could be part of a discussion on volume, as well (since only weight has been covered so far). Take a bear canister and show how many calories can be fit inside under various menu plans. That sort of thing.
Yeah, I would love to have this video. Maybe also explaining what you eat and when to best optimize the usage of the food for the day, how much it weighs and how many calories. But a video with a load out for a 5/7 day would be great.
It’s coming, eventually 😉 I wanted to do it with the added angle of “how many calories can you fit in a bear can?” Then I couldn’t get my hands on the smaller one. Weird product shortages. Anyway, finally got one.
At this particular moment, you are my favorite person. Gonna make sure to watch the next two videos in the series since I've always been especially prone to depletion. I used to get bad headaches and throw up after soccer games. And last year when I went backpacking for the first time, I experienced mild hypothermia (severe shivers, mild nausea) the first 2 nights of a 3 night trip. Backpacking for the second time next weekend. It's an easier trip, but either way, I'm going to minimize the chance of having any kind of depletion issues. And finding a very thorough resource like your videos is always extremely useful. So many videos leave me with a lot of questions, but yours are in depth enough that they answers everything I'd want to know. So thank you very much.
Another outrageously informative and helpful video! You are the MVP of long distance hiking nutrition info. I am very appreciative of your extensive research and time spent to provide others with very useful information.
Grey-shirt vegan guy here. A tasty vegan recovery drink: dextrose, sucrose, soy powder (soy protein isolate ), 1 matcha sachet ( caffeine buffered by L-Thianine ), water. Also, you can add fat via coconut milk powder! Essentially a Matcha, soy latte. Additionally, chickpea or quinoa pastas may be more thermogenic choices, and adding hot pepper flakes should also boost thermogenesis for some duration.
I have made a few other comments on others in this series so will restrict it this time to, the hiking world owes this man a debt of gratitude. Incomprehensibly well researched and presented.
My man, you may have changed my life. I've always struggled with recovery and TBH have never given it much thought (just assumed shitty genetics, lol). After watching your video I put together a solution using Hydrolysed Collagen Peptides (which I was skeptical about), and making changes to suit the intensity of my workout. It has gone from the point where I'm constantly like "why am I doing this to myself?" (leading to countless burnouts) to almost like my workout never even happened. THANK YOU!
The work that you've put into this series of videos is insane! I am a beginner hiker but MAN do I feel empowered by knowledge after this! Thank you for all the work you've done here!
Used formula for recovery drink this past weekend. I usually feel tired for a few days after a long weekend but ingesting the carb/protein formula at end of the day was a game changer! I won’t do long backpacking trips without it. Thanks for the info and research. My mixture was Gatorade powder and collagen powder that I already had on hand, weighed out with my kitchen scale. Again. Thanks !!!!
Thanks so much for the great content! I appreciate the depth of research. You've helped tremendously with my understanding of trail nutrition! Thanks again!
Up to now, my preferred recovery drink was a post ride beer - I may have to do some reevaluation. Thanks! - great presentation and I appreciate how you summarize a great deal of information into guidelines and easy to apply ideas. You should consider submitting manuscript as a review article somewhere - Im sure it would be greeted with a great deal of interest and maybe get more hiking specific studies done.
I am so grateful for and appreciative of your videos! Such a generous sharing of knowledge (and it seems like you are enjoying yourself as well! ). So much information, it would be easy to get lost in the detail, but you present it in such a logical structure that it is easy to remember the principles. Your nutrition videos led me to look up research on nutrition for older people and menopausal women so I could extend my understanding there. (For me, my parents - still adventuring in their 80s, and my friends) Your videos gave me the foundation to build upon. And they make me laugh! Laughter also aids performance and recovery, surety 😂
Crazy he talks about protein supplements. I found that when I use whey protein I build up an amino acid which messes with me somehow. After about a week on whey I get an eye twitch. Sucks but I had to start using soy. Which I've been fine using. The eye twitch took almost a month to finally go away. Awesome research. Crazy how all in you went for the info. Very grateful hiker here. Thank you sir.
You are the best. Thank you so much for including a spreadsheet as my brain processes data much better in written form than in video. This is amazing info.
Holy crap. I can't remember the last time I binged watch if ever something like this. I thought I had a pretty good handle on eating while hiking but this was a masterclass. Thank you!
I have done biking endurance than backpack endurance. Over a period of a decade I ended up getting to your same conclusion. I used sugar+protein bars while riding long days and once I stumbled on that I no longer needed rest days, I could do 6 hours of intense riding in mountains day after day.
Thank you so very much, Sir. You are even if you don’t know jet on the forefront of a new wave of thinking about food as more than fuel, more than taste, more than weight. Ist the synergy on the edge of our evolution to digestive input ( food, medicine etc).
You mention Clif Recovery Protein Drink as a good hiker choice...check out Carnation Instant Breakfast High Protein Powder French Vanilla. It costs 3x less (around $0.55 per oz for Carnation vs $1.50 Clif on Amazon) and seems to have comparable amounts of the recovery ingredients and nutrition (10 g protein for both, 21g vs 28g of sugar, vitamins, etc).
Out of the 5 videos I checked, none of them had a single dislike! Keep going man. (Comment mainly for the algo, but you're doing great, keep making videos)
I just wanted to share that this really worked wonders for me! I'm training for a section hike, but I was having to hike every other day because it was making me feel wrecked and I needed a day to rest in between days. What I had around the house was Country time Lemonade powder and Vital Proteins Collagen powder. Not the optimal 3.4:1 ratio- a tblspoon of sugar would bump it up, but just a serving of each in a 20 oz bottle last night after a 14 miler made all the difference-I was ready to hike first thing this morning! Thanks again :)
oh man, this is absolute gold! I especially respect and love the effort you put into all those researches. I am vomiting rainbows 🎉 :) Thank you, thank you!
Well thought out and researched. Thanks, I'm prepping for a trek at Philmont and am trying to figure out how to supplement their low cost options. Now I can use the chart to assess and supplement based on my personal needs. Great work!
@@GearSkeptic do you frequent the ultralight forum on Reddit? I posted a link to your UA-cam and there's a discussion going on about your channel right now. You've got 400 subscribers in the past few days from the thread. If you're interested there might be a few questions that you can answer. :-)
Tthe missing piece of my planning as I mentioned, brain fried over base weight vs budget. I cannot thank you enough for a) asking all the questions and b) sharing the answers. In the first third of the vid, you may have heard someone shouting "Yes WHEY!" When you added collagen to the possibilities; I knew I already had everything I needed in my daily routine and would not have to torture myself with junk from $ $tore. Thank you, thank you👍
I really appreciate this. I tend to get a bit fatigued on the trail, so I have pieces of Lara bar as I walk along. I’m going to replay that section of video 1, but the recovery and the dinner portions digested nicely in my brain. I’ve been taking notes while on the treadmill.
@GearSkeptic Thanks for this great series. Ive been using protein and carb drinks as a cyclist for a long time but never needed a recovery plan since I wasnt doing daily back-to-back efforts as one does in thru-hiking. With a planned PCT hike next year this info is great for planning. While watching the part regarding Glucose/Fructose/Sucrose balancing, I took a look at the two carb drinks I have now just as an example. One is from Gu called Roctane Energy, the other is from Powerbar called IsoActive (links below). Sure enough, both had a mix of Glucose or glucose-equivalent and Fructose. But both also had an ingredient you didnt mention: Maltodextrin. It seems this is used as a Glucose-equivalent in much the same way as Dextrose. It is a high GI polysaccharide that breaks down and digests at the same rate as Glucose/Dextrose. Ill leave a NIH link if you feel like reading...about a 3rd of the way down are sections devoted to use of MD's in Recovery/Energy drinks. The reason I mention these, is that for a long-trail thru-hiker who doesnt want to buy individual powders and mix and prep into resupply packages, another Recovery drink plan could be just to find any typical carb drink during a town day resupply that already has a Glucose/Dextrose/Maltodextrin & Fructose mixture and pair it with a whey protein product. (Re-packaged into ziplocs..naturally...) Upon reaching camp, our exhausted thru-hiker could then knock back a protein drink followed immediately by the carb drink in whatever ratio is required. (This assumes the carb drink manufacturer uses a research-based Glucose:Fructose ratio much the way you do in your formula. Id be highly surprised if major brand carb drink manufacturers didnt do this). Does this plan sound like something that is inline with your research?
That sounds like a good idea! A good way to DIY a recovery from parts available most anywhere. Thanks for the info and I will check those studies out. (just saw your comment now, YT has a tendency to suppress those with links, for spam I guess)
Such good content, thanks for the upload. My only question is how this works practically on the trail... any container will get disgusting after being used for a protein shake. When I backpack, I'm rarely washing things, because I bring a single pot which is only used to boil water. Do you carry extra soap or something, and just make washing this bottle part of the nightly routine? Also, I wouldn't think to use that same bottle for water... is it dedicated? Do you carry it empty most of the day? The frog fuel, while it generates more waste, avoids this issue.
I’ve always been fine with rinsing (as opposed to actual washing). My mix bottle is separate, and does double duty for electrolyte solutions so it’s never really left to stagnate, or kept empty to dry out and get crusty.
@gearskeptic With my style of hiking (trying to maximize hiking hours in a day) I pretty well hike until I set up camp and make dinner and go to sleep. I don't really have the time to stop, then consume the recovery mix 15-30 minutes after, then wait an hour to have dinner. If you were in my situation would you A) drink the recovery mix an hour before stopping for the day, B) have the recovery mix once I stop, and then have dinner a short time later (
I think I would consume it while still hiking, near the end, and just make the dose a little extra (maybe 125%). The recovery also makes great trail fuel!
I use Skratch Labs vegan recovery mix. I got into it in 2021 when I was training for and riding in several cycling endurance events (not competitive just an experience) Same ingredients/ratios except for the protein source which is plant based. Really changed things for me and I use it for hiking now as well. Funny to stumble on this video today ❤
REI sells "Hammer Nutrition Recoverite" in individual serving packets, with a 3:1 ratio + electrolytes. The strawberry flavor is quite good; I haven't tried the chocolate.
All the vids you have posted, m8 this has to be shared. idc if you mind or not brother, but I will have to share your channel and vids. The thing I hate most is false believes, (purposely) wrong info and sharing of believes of things instead of facts. What I think is so awesome, is initially I, and you and everyone on this channel where interested in backpacking food, performance and weight. I dont think you realize but your videos actually goes beyond just backpacking. People always eat more then they need (well the general population), your videos actually could combat over-consumption, malnutrition and single use. (you might have to think a bit about the latter but that might be a nice challenge for you).
Thank you so much for the info on recovery drink/meals. I'm going to try making one for next weeks hike using stuff I have around the house Swedish fish and whey protein.
I've been watching your series and these are insanely informative! I've never come across such useful and formalized way of looking at backpacking nutrition. Thank you for making these! Also, are there any alternatives to the Starbucks packs for the homemade recovery pouches? At the end of the day the caffeine will keep me from sleeping 😵
Thanks very much! If you’re using the homemade recipe, you are already scooping powder into your own baggies. So, no reason you need a packet. You could just use regular granulated sugar. A tablespoon would give you the exact same grams of sugar carbs as the Starbucks packet, without the caffeine or flavor.
@@GearSkeptic Sorry to jump back on this, but would I need 1 tbsp or 2 tbsp to achieve the same sugar carb content? The great google tells me 1 tbsp of cane sugar is 13g of sugar content, and the goal is 25g to achieve ~25g of sucrose? Just want to check that I'm thinking about this right
Ah, darn it! I forgot that the Starbucks food label was for just a half packet. So, yes. One packet is actually two “servings” or double the label amount. That means your are absolutely correct. It is 2 tablespoons of sugar to equal one coffee packet. Sorry about that.
I am very late to this party, fashionably so perhaps? So I'm not sure if you still check comments for this video or not, but here goes. Like everybody else I'd like to thank you for this immense body of work, I really really appreciate it. Onto my question. How do I know when the recovery window that opens between 15-30 minutes after finishing actually starts? I mean, if I stop hiking/backpacking as in put my pack down BUT continue to move whilst putting up my test etc. is that counted as exercise, or is does the time strictly start from ending the walking phase of the day? With such a limited period of optimum uptake I don't think this is an unreasonable question? Or is it? Thanks in advance, Scott in New Zealand!!
The window is essentially kept open by activity strenuous enough to cause glycogen drain. So, I’d say it starts closing every time you slow down below that. Conversely, it would begin reopening if activity levels rose again. The movement around camp like unpacking, setting up your tent or cooking probably isn’t enough to keep it open. Also, it doesn’t snap shut. More of a gradual decrease and it technically never closes completely (you still get some benefit from a recovery snack even if it is taken much later, it is just a reduced amount but still better than nothing). I’ve gotten distracted and had one after an hour and still felt better than with nothing, so don’t worry too much about the clock.
Incredible video, the research you did was top notch. I'm about to do a 60 mile backpacking trip. Never used a recovery drink before. Lets see how I do. (50, female and not really fit enough!)
I would be inclined to add a scoop of creating mono to the recovery mix, too! I have found it makes a difference for me in muscle recovery, and there’s some interesting research on it out there.
Does a scoop mean 30 grams? Just asking because I'm buying some creatine mono and the bag says 3 grams for portion. Is a scoop(30g) just something you feel is right or is there some science behind this amount.
@@jodiebrignell6981 In the video Skeps recipe says 1/2 scoop of whey 15g so scoop must mean 30g and that is 10x the amount of Creatine that my bag says is 1 portion. This got me confused. Tried to google scoop since I'm european and don't know this but got conflicting info. Nasa spacecraft blew up from a metric math mistake ones. Luckily this is just a recovery drink. Maybe my toilet would have exploded if I hadn't asked. Thanks for answering :)
Has anyone been able to find the Clif or Gatorade recovery options available in any stores? I'd love to pick them up on my AT resupplies but I'm not mailing resupply boxes so online shopping won't work to well.
Is there a recommendation or calculations as to how much recovery drink is needed? eg. An easy day hike vs a long full day mountain ascent I assume would need very different replacement amounts?
Very good question, difficult to assess for everyone. Generally, I won’t bother with recovery unless it is at least 1.5 to 2 hours of fairly intense work. For a slower pace, 3 hours for the formal recovery drink (I use solid foods at recovery ratio as an intermediate). To me, the described drink is good for up to 4-5hrs of moderate work. If I’m going full day stuff, I won’t just make a bigger drink. I have two instead, spacing them out at the halfway and end points. I think there is a lot of flexibility. Not an exact science. Hopefully that helps!
These videos are amazing, I just threw out half my resupply buckets and re-packaged them according to your guidance. Any chance we could get an Excel or Google Doc version of the list?
@@GearSkeptic Love the videos! Thanks for taking the time to make these. I would also like an excel version if you make one available! Thank you so much!
Thank you for your videos. My wife and I enjoy planning meals for backpacking and getting it as light as possible, and your videos are helping us take it to the next level of nutrition performance. We have been reading about how altitude changes your taste perception and how much hedonic response (positive feels) you get from different flavors. We have also been wondering how altitude alters your water usage and perhaps other nutrition. We spend most of our long backpacking trips above 9000 feet. Will be trying the recovery drink for the first time next week.
I do appreciate all the work that has gone into researching and compiling this, your series is phenomenal. I shall be watching them a few times, pausing when necessary, to extract as much information as I can. However there were two points that immediately jumped out at me. 1. The ‘complete protein/food combination’ theory for vegetarians/vegans although still often quoted has been discredited. 2. The ‘recovery window’ has also been shown as not relevant to most non-professional athletes, as most amateurs only do one exercise session in a day (eg cycling, running, weights), so just normal meals, at the usual time is adequate. However, hiking might be different, using the recovery window, with the recommended mix isn’t going to do any harm, as you’re stressing your body exercising more than usual AND throughout the day. It also ensures you ‘eat’ earlier in the day, and supplements the inadequate calories/components of the dehydrated camper’s main meal. Maybe there’s a case for two recovery meals. One after the morning ‘session’, and one after the afternoon ‘session’? Thanks again for the videos.
I drink it as soon as I reach camp. That way, the time it takes to setup the tent, unpack, blow up my mattress, etc. gives me time to absorb it before eating dinner. I'm usually up for another hour or so after that, and by then it doesn't seem to interfere with sleep. Long days will put me out! Though, caffeine is highly subject to acclimation. If you aren't used to any caffeine, it could affect you more! (sorry for the delay, by the way...for some reason I never get the notification of your question)
Your videos were incredible helpfull. However I'm a landscape photographer and mostly do 2 hikes a day (to location and back) should use a "recovery pack" after every hike or would this be harmful?
how about a whey protein shake, say a half portion for 10-12g of protein, and a couple tbsp of honey (30-35g of carbs)? honey is glucose and fructose. probably not a 75/25 ratio, but easy to get, easy to eat, and delicious. heavy, but you could also add it to oatmeal in the morning!
Appreciate the work! Something that would be very helpful with the chart would be simple sort options for optimum foods per the meal categories. It'd be nice to just sort by top recovery/breakfast/etc foods and select ones I enjoy
Maybe I missed it, but how much water should I use for your recovery drink, or the commercial options? For example, the Gatorade Recover Whey Protein Powder says that it makes "about 12 fluid ounces" (per their website - I'm still waiting on mine to get here). Does adding the Starbucks Via change the amount of water needed? Do you prefer to use significantly more or less than the package recommendations? I'm thinking it would make sense to use a dedicated separate bottle, both to have a wider mouth than the smartwater bottles I typically use and to avoid flavoring my primary water bottles, but I'm not sure how large of a bottle I need.
Good point! I don’t think I ever said how much water. Technically, the amount of water won’t change any of the nutrient amounts or ratios, so you could just mix to taste, or thirst. That being said, some of the research I’ve just completed on the forthcoming Hydration Strategies (Part 3) video suggests a couple of recommendations: You want a certain amount of water per calorie consumed for digestion and nutrient transport (probably most important for solid foods, but if we assume the same for drink mixes). But, you want to take all the recovery mix quickly so it is to be essentially drunk in a short time. Therefore, I wouldn’t make the mixture too dilute or you’ll have to chug a ton of water all at once. For the portion size of mixes discussed in the video, I’d use between 12 and 16oz. That’s just an estimate, really. I don’t think it’d hurt much if you spread that range a few more ounces in either direction. More of a taste thing, at that point.
I think that makes perfect sense. I figure a 20 oz Gatorade or Powerade bottle filled an eyeballed 2/3 - 3/4 full should be just right. Wide mouth so it’s easy to pour powders in, enough extra volume to make mixing easier without being excessively large, and sturdy enough to throw in my pack while hiking if I want to pack it away without worrying about crushing it.
Thank you for your hard work! I have Diabetes 2 and I have a long hike coming up soon. I’m at a loss for devising a recovery and rebuilding regime that does not send my blood glucose levels off-scale. Suggestions very much appreciated, thank you.
That’s a tough one. So far, I haven’t found anything that specifically addresses glycogen recovery with diabetic concerns in mind. Best I can find is this article on protein supplements. How whey isolate stimulates insulin is said to be good. www.olympicmuscle.com/bodybuilding-supplements-diabetics-type-2/
Your question is a year old but it’s important that you get an adequate answer. If you have diabetes do not follow the information here… FYI, I eat zero carbs. I exercise intensely daily, and walk about 50+mi weekly when I’m not hiking. Your body will adapt and more then adequately replenish muscle glycogen from Gluconeogenesis in the liver. Dietary Carbohydrates are unnecessary in human physiology. Consuming large boluses of carbohydrates is unnecessary, and for you, very unhealthy. There is a transition phase and this timeframe is person specific. But, 2-6 months on average. The worse your diet was before going zero carb the longer it will take to adapt. If for some reason your jet set on consuming carbs with diabetes, either for a death wish or just mentally weak, I would recommend having them prior to exercise (walking). This way they are used immediately by the muscles. Good luck to you.
I’m not that familiar with keto. But, if you search “can hikers do keto” there are several interesting looking articles. One from The Trek specifically talks about what they ate and how they handled resupply on trail.
Following your advice, I've been using the CLIF recovery powder for the last year whenever I finish a bigger hike day (whether a day hike or multiple days hikes) and I have seen a big improvement in my body on the next day. Thanks so much! Question for you. I'm planning a 14 to 16 hours Presidential-range-traverse-in one day this summer in New-Hampshire, with a 45-60 mins break in mid-way (on top of Mount Washington). Should I consider this mid-point break as the "end of my day" and take a recovery drink at that point (since 8-9 hours is the usual lenght of time for my regular 'big' hikes). I would of course take the usual drink at the end of the day after the 16 hours of walking? Is there a counter indication proceeding this way? Thank you for your thoughts!
You can definitely take more than one recovery drink a day. On a trek that long, I would. In fact, I try to make my breakfast and mid-day snacks within that carb/protein ratio of 3 or 4 to 1. It makes good trail fuel, like a slower version of a recovery snack all day long. Really, what’s special about the actual Recovery Drink is that liquids are faster. The speed is useful once you’ve stopped exercising. But, if you will be continuing to exert yourself, the recovery window essentially stays open, so solid foods with the right ratio still make a good choice. I did a separate video on Planning an Ultralight Menu for Optimal Nutrition that goes into more detail, with full sample menus for a multi-day trip.
@@GearSkeptic Thank you for your answer and advice. I was specifically concerned about this scenario of a long first portion followed with a 1h long break in the middle and a long hike after; since the recovery window closes after 30 mins, I was concerned about the extra 30 mins of break causing an issue, but wasn't sure if there was a downside to using the recovery powder midway. Now I know! I will thus prepare 2 recovery drinks, one at mid point, one at the end. Cheers N.B. I've watched all vids on the channel and have planned my menus accordingly, using the XL file: love it and has proven very useful!
Brilliant video - thanks so much for putting this together. I do have one question (and I realise almost certainly it's me being slow): you suggest mixing the Frog recovery sachets with a big old Gatorade bottle - but how is this possible on a multi-day hike where clearly it won't be possible to bring multiple Gatorade bottles with you?
It looks very good. It has a perfect 4:1 ratio of carbs to protein, uses excellent ingredients (dextrose, whey isolate and concentrate, fructose), and seems to have additional vitamins and electrolytes, as well.
First off, thank you. These videos have me looking at my food in a completely different way. I have a question, how much water do you add to your recovery drink?
You’re welcome! I use about 16oz. It is flexible, though. It gets pretty strongly sweet if you use less water, and don’t do more than a liter (see the video on hydration strategies for the limits of what your body can process at one time).
I have created my personal recovery mix following this video. Ive come back and rewatched it a couple of times, always finding new useful info. What im still wondering is, the 4:1 ratio seems to be the dominating criteria. but how much exactly of protein/carbs do i need? what does it depend on? are 4g carbs to 1g protein enough? why not go for 400g carbs to 100g protein? (obviously this makes no sense out hiking). how do i calculate how much carbs i need in this mix?
There probably isn’t an actual calculation. It will depend on so many different factors. How much muscle mass do you have (affecting your total glycogen stores)? How much of that glycogen was depleted? How much have you been replenishing through snacks during your hike? There is no way to measure that in the field, and it will also depend on numerous factors that can change with each and every hike. I think the best you can do is try to learn your needs through trial. If the amount of your recovery mix leaves you still suffering afterward, try increasing. It is probably ok to err on the side of extra. For me, my listed mix is good for moderately stressful exertion of between two and four hours. For an 8-hour day, I could benefit from two recovery drinks. You can have one mid-day and keep hiking. It doesn’t have to be only at the end.
Incredible series of videos, thank you for your amazing work! I'm sure I'm missing the answer to this somewhere, but how did you land on the amounts for your own recovery drink? I.e., why not use a full scope of protein powder and pair it with the appropriate amount of carbs to get your 3.4:1 ratio instead of the half scoop you actually use? Is there a bare minimum amount of protein/carbs you actually need and anything above that is superfluous?
Actually, just through experiment. That dose is good for about every 4 hours, with lots of flexibility. Meaning: anything from 2 hours of hard exertion (like running or chopping wood) up to 6 hours of more steady pace like hiking. For an 8 hour day, I’d take two doses split up in the middle and at the end.
Love the video. As a university biochemistry professor, I appreciate the science based analysis. However, I offer one suggestion. I don't believe your explanation of aerobic vs. anaerobic metabolism is quite right, as it reflects a common misconception. A physiology professor friend of mine had to set me straight on this. You do not activate anaerobic metabolism because oxygen is deficient. Muscle cells doing anaerobic metabolism are fully oxygenated. In fact they get more oxygen than usual due increases heart and breathing rates ( induced by elevated CO2) and increased O2 delivery from hemoglobin (due to the Bohr Effect). Anaerobic metabolism is activated when ATP consumption exceeds the rate it can be regenerated by oxidative phosphorylation. Anaerobic metabolism is able to regenerate ATP at a faster rate, so even with plenty of O2, some carbohydrate metabolism is diverted to the anaerobic pathway to make up the ATP shortfall. However anaerobic metabolism is inherently limited due to the accumulation of the waste product, lactate (lactic acid). It is also very inefficient in terms of energy yield. The same principle is seen in all energy transducing machines in that you can have power or efficiency, but not both. Given one gallon of gas, I'll bring my Dodge Viper to a drag race but my Prius to my 50 mile race. It's also worth noting that fats are not able to support anaerobic metabolim. Also, the rate of protein catabolism is limited by the rate at which nitrogen waste can be processed. This is why it is impossible to live on a protein only diet (known as rabbit starvation).
You can get the same ratio by substituting the coffee packet for 2 tablespoons of sugar. I try to take a recovery dose for each 4-5 hours of hiking, if it is strenuous. If the pace is more casual, I will only do one formal recovery drink at the end, relying on ratioed snacks during the hike itself.
I must be a weirdo; most of what you recommend isn't what I do (except eating breakfast, all on board there! wish my hiking companions liked breakfast). I am always warmest just before getting up in the morning, coldest at bedtime, no matter when I eat. I love waking up at 3-4am because then i can nestle back in warm and cozy for some really excellent pre-dawn sleep. But eating before bed will keep me awake, or at worst make me hurl, so it's not an option anyway! lol - I also dislike shakes and whatnot, so drinking that protein stuff would really make me nauseous after a day's hike. A pre-dinner snack though...
Wow, thank you so much for this very informative series! Got a quick question, if I opted for the Frog Fuel instead of the Whey, would I still have to mix it with the dextrose and sweetened coffee? Like does Frog Fuel stand on its own and accomplish the same results as your mix? Next question, using your recovery drink recipe, how much water do you add? I hope you have a quick minute to answer my questions. Thank you so much, I really enjoy your videos.
Thanks much! For my own mix, the water amount is somewhat flexible, but I use about 16oz. Any less and it gets very, very sweet. Frog Fuel is just protein, so you need your sugars from somewhere. I use it with Gatorade, because the electrolytes are also good if you are sweating. One liter of Gatorade makes a good ratio if you squeeze one Frog Fuel packet into it, and their citrusy flavor profiles go well together!
@@maryhurd5868 it dissolves well. All of the ingredients stir in easily with just a spoon (or you can just tip a bottle back and forth if it has a cap).
It’s flexible. I would do anywhere between 16 and 32oz. It’s pretty sweet, so diluting it’s some isn’t a problem, but you want to drink it fairly straight away so I wouldn’t go more than the liter.
I experimented with the recovery drink on my recent backpacking trip (minus the caffeine due to severe outdoor induced insomnia). Multiday hikes ruin me and I can barely function for days after finishing. I get home, "nap" for hours, wake up, go to bed really early, lie in and repeat the next day and still feel absolutely wrecked, to the point I won't eat.
The weather hit 31c/88f with high humidity, with non-existent shade. The most I’ve ever hiked is 18.2 mi/29.2 km (in cool weather and carrying less). This trip I beat my personal record on the 2nd day (20.2 mi/32.5 km) and equalled my ascent record. The last 4 miles were a rollercoaster of hills designed to destroy legs. I didn’t plan to go that far but I reached my finish point with fuel still in the tank so I continued for another 3 miles, adding 872ft to my ascent.
I drank this within 30 mins of stopping on each day. I don’t feel wrecked and I didn’t get the violent post exercise shivers like usual. I came home, had a small nap (because of the insomnia), woke up, done some chores, went to bed and woke up at a normal time. I feel good, tired in a good way but not utterly destroyed.
I didn’t expect any difference at all, or for it to be marginal. I don’t feel this is a coincidence because I had more variables that were working against a positive outcome (excessive heat, humidity, backpack weight, lockdown meaning I was unfit, carrying more body weight and not conditioned) but it seems to have worked like magic. This may very well be a game changer for me, it's quite exciting. Thank you.
That is exciting! I had very similar experience, myself. So glad to hear this!
I was not! I will add them to the list for the next update.
You appreciate our time ? All this research took hours. It has taken less than 45 minutes to watch it. Thanks for the research and for posting this video. Very helpful for those that want the best diet for hiking. You've given us all the info needed to make the right choices.
Thanks so much! I’m very glad if it helps!
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My wife is a dietitian and clapped at the end of the first video...so there's that.
These are incredibly informative and will definitely change the way we pack for backpacking trips!
Thanks very much! That means a lot.
I am currently out on the Appalachian Trail attempting a 2023 thru-hike. I can absolutely say that after a day of hiking I would normally be sore and stiff but I'm using the recovery drink mix and feel absolutely ready to go the next day with no ill effects of the previous days hiking.
That is awesome! Thanks so much for letting me know.
“Or your money back”, is a similar kind of humor that I use. I put my patients to sleep for surgery. They routinely are worried about waking up. I tell them, “You’ll wake up, guaranteed, or your money back”. Kentucky
I'm over 60 yrs old and was absolutely wrecked after a 17 mile hike in training for a 80 mile trek later this summer. I took a dose of Mike's Mix before I cooled down. The next morning, aside from a sore knee, I felt like I hadn't even hiked the day before. Couldn't believe it. Thanks so much for what you've worked so hard to bring to us.
That’s outstanding! I’m very glad to hear it. Thanks for letting me know!
Per requests, I uploaded an Excel version of the Hiker Food Chart. Now you can group, sort, add to, or edit the data as you like!
Link to the new download:
www.mediafire.com/file/lqsrekfp3it3qwu/Hiker_Food_Chart.xlsx/file
Some Technical Notes:
You may note that Column G is hidden. I created an independent calculation of total calories (Column F "kcal" that is displayed simply comes from the Calories listed on the product's food label). The USDA, however, allows manufacturers to round off calorie counts to the nearest 10 (above a certain number). I wanted a more precise count so Column G was created to compute the calories directly from the number of grams of each macronutrient listed, wherein each gram of fat = 9 Calories, carbs = 4, and protein = 4. In many cases, the two Calorie counts are similar (e.g. 240 on the label, 246 computed) and theoretically the computed number should be the most accurate. In some instances, however, the calorie discrepancy is larger (10, 15, or even over 20 calories).
I have a few theories why this might be:
1) I have found differences between a product's food label and the Nutrition Info for the same product on its website. I have to assume these differences are due to errors made by the manufacturer.
2) There could be some compounding of rounding errors (they are allowed to round off gram counts for macronutrients as well)
3) I could have made data entry errors when making the spreadsheet
4) It is possible the food manufacturers "cheat" the calorie counts sometimes to make their products look less fattening, since a conspicuously large number of the discrepancies show the food label undercounting calories compared to just multiplying out the value of each ingredient.
5) There could be issues with how certain special ingredients are handled in terms of calories vs their gram weights. An example might be sugar alcohols, which have normal theoretical calorie density for carbs, but aren't supposed to metabolize fully (so maybe the label discounts those calories?).
I used computed calories for two calculations: the Fat % and Sugar % columns. I mention it in case anyone wants to adjust the formulas.
Lastly, I used conditional formatting to shade cells in the columns that use color-coding (the Keys are on Tab 2). Sometimes, conditional formatting isn't supported on other platforms and the colors may not come out right (using the Numbers spreadsheet app on my iPad has been an example of this problem).
Happy sorting!
Thank you so much!! This is awesome info!
Most welcome!
This is amazing, but curiuos if you know the formula we can use in the Menu Planner tab to pull over food items. I am sure some form of an "=IF" function would work but I am such a beginner when it comes to Excel. But essentially if you type the brand, flavor, and class correctly then the nutritional profile fields will automatically move over. Does that make sense? Any ideas on how to do that?
@@colbypark1311 There is actually a separate video on the Menu Planner (it is a feature that was added later), but basically you just do a standard cut-and-paste from the regular chart.
Thank you. Your videos and spreadsheets thus far has been informative, enlightening, refreshing and all around tremendously enjoyable. It has been far too long since I've happened upon content this seemingly genuine yet well thought out and executed, let alone content so relevant and likely revolutionize aspects of my current interests. Very much looking forward to the upcoming hydration video and to see what the future holds for this channel. Please enjoy all of my likes and subscribes, I even rang that bell.
Thank you very much! Those are kind words and I really appreciate it.
This series is the coolest! Honestly it’s just refreshing to hear thoughtful consideration on any topic.
I feel like i now have a collage degree in backpacking food/ nutrition information thank you! Your the man!
You are most welcome! I am glad if it can help.
Thank you for the chart, the research, and the entertainment! Eagerly anticipating your next video.
My only advice is to be skeptical not just of anecdotes but also single studies; these very often fail to replicate. That said, you don't need a meta analysis to see you're doing something right - just need a scale.
Cheers and bon appetit
All while avoiding analysis paralysis!
"Anecdotes are not evidence" or as I prefer, "The plural of anecdote is not data."
Love your videos. I'd really like to request a "This is my food load-out for X days" video. Obviously other people would vary from that but it could provide some good practical application of the mountain of data you've provided in this series. Keep up the good work.
Good idea! I really should have done that. I'm thinking it could be part of a discussion on volume, as well (since only weight has been covered so far). Take a bear canister and show how many calories can be fit inside under various menu plans. That sort of thing.
Yeah, I would love to have this video. Maybe also explaining what you eat and when to best optimize the usage of the food for the day, how much it weighs and how many calories. But a video with a load out for a 5/7 day would be great.
@@GearSkeptic We’re still waiting in anticipation for a ‘And here’s what I eat/drink for an x day thru-hike’ video! Love your work
It’s coming, eventually 😉
I wanted to do it with the added angle of “how many calories can you fit in a bear can?” Then I couldn’t get my hands on the smaller one. Weird product shortages. Anyway, finally got one.
At this particular moment, you are my favorite person.
Gonna make sure to watch the next two videos in the series since I've always been especially prone to depletion. I used to get bad headaches and throw up after soccer games. And last year when I went backpacking for the first time, I experienced mild hypothermia (severe shivers, mild nausea) the first 2 nights of a 3 night trip.
Backpacking for the second time next weekend. It's an easier trip, but either way, I'm going to minimize the chance of having any kind of depletion issues. And finding a very thorough resource like your videos is always extremely useful. So many videos leave me with a lot of questions, but yours are in depth enough that they answers everything I'd want to know. So thank you very much.
Thank you! Much appreciated, and very glad to help!
Another outrageously informative and helpful video! You are the MVP of long distance hiking nutrition info. I am very appreciative of your extensive research and time spent to provide others with very useful information.
Thanks very much! That’s generous of you to say.
Grey-shirt vegan guy here. A tasty vegan recovery drink: dextrose, sucrose, soy powder (soy protein isolate ), 1 matcha sachet ( caffeine buffered by L-Thianine ), water. Also, you can add fat via coconut milk powder! Essentially a Matcha, soy latte. Additionally, chickpea or quinoa pastas may be more thermogenic choices, and adding hot pepper flakes should also boost thermogenesis for some duration.
Hi there I would love the recipe for this! Love matcha!! 🍵
I like this guy and this series. He’s obviously a backpacker, as am I. I’ll keep it all in mind.
Thanks!
I have made a few other comments on others in this series so will restrict it this time to, the hiking world owes this man a debt of gratitude. Incomprehensibly well researched and presented.
Very kind of you! I do appreciate it.
Vid after vid jam packed full of knowledge. What a tremendous help you’ve been. We appreciate all you do!
My man, you may have changed my life. I've always struggled with recovery and TBH have never given it much thought (just assumed shitty genetics, lol). After watching your video I put together a solution using Hydrolysed Collagen Peptides (which I was skeptical about), and making changes to suit the intensity of my workout. It has gone from the point where I'm constantly like "why am I doing this to myself?" (leading to countless burnouts) to almost like my workout never even happened. THANK YOU!
That is awesome! I am so glad to hear it. Thanks much!
I like that you included a vegan option!
Excellent summary - you can count on that I'll put it to good use this coming hiking season! Big thanx from snowy ❄️🌨️ Sweden ;)
The work that you've put into this series of videos is insane! I am a beginner hiker but MAN do I feel empowered by knowledge after this! Thank you for all the work you've done here!
You are most welcome, and I sincerely hope it helps!
Used formula for recovery drink this past weekend. I usually feel tired for a few days after a long weekend but ingesting the carb/protein formula at end of the day was a game changer! I won’t do long backpacking trips without it. Thanks for the info and research. My mixture was Gatorade powder and collagen powder that I already had on hand, weighed out with my kitchen scale.
Again. Thanks !!!!
That’s outstanding! I’ve used Gatorade and collagen (both can come in easy packets). Glad to hear it!
Thanks so much for the great content! I appreciate the depth of research. You've helped tremendously with my understanding of trail nutrition! Thanks again!
You’re very welcome! Thanks for saying so.
Up to now, my preferred recovery drink was a post ride beer - I may have to do some reevaluation. Thanks! - great presentation and I appreciate how you summarize a great deal of information into guidelines and easy to apply ideas. You should consider submitting manuscript as a review article somewhere - Im sure it would be greeted with a great deal of interest and maybe get more hiking specific studies done.
Thanks so much for doing all that research for us. 😅
I am so grateful for and appreciative of your videos! Such a generous sharing of knowledge (and it seems like you are enjoying yourself as well! ).
So much information, it would be easy to get lost in the detail, but you present it in such a logical structure that it is easy to remember the principles.
Your nutrition videos led me to look up research on nutrition for older people and menopausal women so I could extend my understanding there. (For me, my parents - still adventuring in their 80s, and my friends) Your videos gave me the foundation to build upon.
And they make me laugh! Laughter also aids performance and recovery, surety 😂
Thank you so much! I am very glad to hear it can help. I really appreciate your kind words!
Crazy he talks about protein supplements. I found that when I use whey protein I build up an amino acid which messes with me somehow. After about a week on whey I get an eye twitch. Sucks but I had to start using soy. Which I've been fine using. The eye twitch took almost a month to finally go away. Awesome research. Crazy how all in you went for the info. Very grateful hiker here. Thank you sir.
This is amazingly informative, thanks so much!!
I am looking forward to trying this recovery shake. In the past, I was totally wiped and could not function for a couple of day. This give me hope!!!!
You are the best. Thank you so much for including a spreadsheet as my brain processes data much better in written form than in video. This is amazing info.
You are most welcome! I hope it helps.
Holy crap. I can't remember the last time I binged watch if ever something like this. I thought I had a pretty good handle on eating while hiking but this was a masterclass. Thank you!
Thanks very much! Kind of you to say!
I have done biking endurance than backpack endurance. Over a period of a decade I ended up getting to your same conclusion. I used sugar+protein bars while riding long days and once I stumbled on that I no longer needed rest days, I could do 6 hours of intense riding in mountains day after day.
Thank you so very much, Sir.
You are even if you don’t know jet on the forefront of a new wave of thinking about food as more than fuel, more than taste, more than weight. Ist the synergy on the edge of our evolution to digestive input ( food, medicine etc).
Beyond amazing and super useful research. At the same time sit back and ask myself, how did anyone travel by foot and survive before?
Trail mix!
Thanks for your research! I love the depth of analysis.
You mention Clif Recovery Protein Drink as a good hiker choice...check out Carnation Instant Breakfast High Protein Powder French Vanilla. It costs 3x less (around $0.55 per oz for Carnation vs $1.50 Clif on Amazon) and seems to have comparable amounts of the recovery ingredients and nutrition (10 g protein for both, 21g vs 28g of sugar, vitamins, etc).
I will check it out!
Out of the 5 videos I checked, none of them had a single dislike! Keep going man.
(Comment mainly for the algo, but you're doing great, keep making videos)
I just wanted to share that this really worked wonders for me! I'm training for a section hike, but I was having to hike every other day because it was making me feel wrecked and I needed a day to rest in between days. What I had around the house was Country time Lemonade powder and Vital Proteins Collagen powder. Not the optimal 3.4:1 ratio- a tblspoon of sugar would bump it up, but just a serving of each in a 20 oz bottle last night after a 14 miler made all the difference-I was ready to hike first thing this morning! Thanks again :)
I’m so glad to hear it! And, thanks very much for letting me know ☺️
oh man, this is absolute gold! I especially respect and love the effort you put into all those researches. I am vomiting rainbows 🎉 :) Thank you, thank you!
Love the science background on all the decisions you are making. I’m going to adjust my current eating and recovery. Thanks!
You’re welcome, and I’m glad if it can help!
Super thorough, bro. I love your channel. It's really useful!
Great video’s really enjoy them, I’m just getting into hiking what could I use instead of Starbucks iced coffee
Just substitute with 2 tablespoons of granulated white sugar!
Well thought out and researched. Thanks, I'm prepping for a trek at Philmont and am trying to figure out how to supplement their low cost options. Now I can use the chart to assess and supplement based on my personal needs. Great work!
Thanks! I’m very glad to help.
Really good info and solid advice. thanks for posting this and I look forward to more!
Thanks! I really appreciate it.
@@GearSkeptic do you frequent the ultralight forum on Reddit? I posted a link to your UA-cam and there's a discussion going on about your channel right now. You've got 400 subscribers in the past few days from the thread. If you're interested there might be a few questions that you can answer. :-)
Wow. That's amazing and THANK YOU! I haven't seen it, but I will definitely go check it out. Thanks again for that link! It made a HUGE difference.
Tthe missing piece of my planning as I mentioned, brain fried over base weight vs budget. I cannot thank you enough for a) asking all the questions and b) sharing the answers. In the first third of the vid, you may have heard someone shouting "Yes WHEY!" When you added collagen to the possibilities; I knew I already had everything I needed in my daily routine and would not have to torture myself with junk from $ $tore. Thank you, thank you👍
Thank you for the thorough research and references.
Excellent information once again. Thank you.
My guess is that you were/ are a teacher, professor, or scientist in profession.
I really appreciate this. I tend to get a bit fatigued on the trail, so I have pieces of Lara bar as I walk along. I’m going to replay that section of video 1, but the recovery and the dinner portions digested nicely in my brain. I’ve been taking notes while on the treadmill.
I’m glad to help!
Thank you so much for this. I never knew so many of this.
You are very welcome! I hope it can help.
This work is amazing. Can you add a recovery drink calculator to the spreadsheet
Hammer Brand Recoverite!
@GearSkeptic Thanks for this great series. Ive been using protein and carb drinks as a cyclist for a long time but never needed a recovery plan since I wasnt doing daily back-to-back efforts as one does in thru-hiking. With a planned PCT hike next year this info is great for planning.
While watching the part regarding Glucose/Fructose/Sucrose balancing, I took a look at the two carb drinks I have now just as an example. One is from Gu called Roctane Energy, the other is from Powerbar called IsoActive (links below). Sure enough, both had a mix of Glucose or glucose-equivalent and Fructose. But both also had an ingredient you didnt mention: Maltodextrin. It seems this is used as a Glucose-equivalent in much the same way as Dextrose. It is a high GI polysaccharide that breaks down and digests at the same rate as Glucose/Dextrose. Ill leave a NIH link if you feel like reading...about a 3rd of the way down are sections devoted to use of MD's in Recovery/Energy drinks.
The reason I mention these, is that for a long-trail thru-hiker who doesnt want to buy individual powders and mix and prep into resupply packages, another Recovery drink plan could be just to find any typical carb drink during a town day resupply that already has a Glucose/Dextrose/Maltodextrin & Fructose mixture and pair it with a whey protein product. (Re-packaged into ziplocs..naturally...) Upon reaching camp, our exhausted thru-hiker could then knock back a protein drink followed immediately by the carb drink in whatever ratio is required. (This assumes the carb drink manufacturer uses a research-based Glucose:Fructose ratio much the way you do in your formula. Id be highly surprised if major brand carb drink manufacturers didnt do this). Does this plan sound like something that is inline with your research?
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4940893/
sport.powerbar.com/product/isoactive/
guenergy.com/products/roctane-energy-drink-mix
That sounds like a good idea! A good way to DIY a recovery from parts available most anywhere.
Thanks for the info and I will check those studies out.
(just saw your comment now, YT has a tendency to suppress those with links, for spam I guess)
Such good content, thanks for the upload. My only question is how this works practically on the trail... any container will get disgusting after being used for a protein shake. When I backpack, I'm rarely washing things, because I bring a single pot which is only used to boil water. Do you carry extra soap or something, and just make washing this bottle part of the nightly routine? Also, I wouldn't think to use that same bottle for water... is it dedicated? Do you carry it empty most of the day? The frog fuel, while it generates more waste, avoids this issue.
I’ve always been fine with rinsing (as opposed to actual washing). My mix bottle is separate, and does double duty for electrolyte solutions so it’s never really left to stagnate, or kept empty to dry out and get crusty.
@gearskeptic With my style of hiking (trying to maximize hiking hours in a day) I pretty well hike until I set up camp and make dinner and go to sleep. I don't really have the time to stop, then consume the recovery mix 15-30 minutes after, then wait an hour to have dinner. If you were in my situation would you A) drink the recovery mix an hour before stopping for the day, B) have the recovery mix once I stop, and then have dinner a short time later (
I think I would consume it while still hiking, near the end, and just make the dose a little extra (maybe 125%). The recovery also makes great trail fuel!
I use Skratch Labs vegan recovery mix. I got into it in 2021 when I was training for and riding in several cycling endurance events (not competitive just an experience) Same ingredients/ratios except for the protein source which is plant based. Really changed things for me and I use it for hiking now as well. Funny to stumble on this video today ❤
The chart has been updated to include Skratch!
REI sells "Hammer Nutrition Recoverite" in individual serving packets, with a 3:1 ratio + electrolytes. The strawberry flavor is quite good; I haven't tried the chocolate.
Good to know! I will definitely check the next time I’m there.
I use this as a cyclist and it really works for me!
All the vids you have posted, m8 this has to be shared. idc if you mind or not brother, but I will have to share your channel and vids. The thing I hate most is false believes, (purposely) wrong info and sharing of believes of things instead of facts.
What I think is so awesome, is initially I, and you and everyone on this channel where interested in backpacking food, performance and weight.
I dont think you realize but your videos actually goes beyond just backpacking. People always eat more then they need (well the general population), your videos actually could combat over-consumption, malnutrition and single use. (you might have to think a bit about the latter but that might be a nice challenge for you).
Thanks much! Very kind of you and I do appreciate it!
Thank you so much for the info on recovery drink/meals. I'm going to try making one for next weeks hike using stuff I have around the house Swedish fish and whey protein.
I basically been doing the opposite of what I should 😂, glad to see it's very easy to fix
I've been watching your series and these are insanely informative! I've never come across such useful and formalized way of looking at backpacking nutrition. Thank you for making these!
Also, are there any alternatives to the Starbucks packs for the homemade recovery pouches? At the end of the day the caffeine will keep me from sleeping 😵
Thanks very much! If you’re using the homemade recipe, you are already scooping powder into your own baggies. So, no reason you need a packet. You could just use regular granulated sugar. A tablespoon would give you the exact same grams of sugar carbs as the Starbucks packet, without the caffeine or flavor.
@@GearSkeptic That makes sense. I'm going to try that out. Thanks again!
@@GearSkeptic Sorry to jump back on this, but would I need 1 tbsp or 2 tbsp to achieve the same sugar carb content? The great google tells me 1 tbsp of cane sugar is 13g of sugar content, and the goal is 25g to achieve ~25g of sucrose? Just want to check that I'm thinking about this right
Ah, darn it! I forgot that the Starbucks food label was for just a half packet. So, yes. One packet is actually two “servings” or double the label amount.
That means your are absolutely correct. It is 2 tablespoons of sugar to equal one coffee packet. Sorry about that.
@@GearSkeptic Thanks! And no problem, I appreciate how quickly you put in a valuable reply!
Excellent information. Thank you!!
Thank you!
I am very late to this party, fashionably so perhaps? So I'm not sure if you still check comments for this video or not, but here goes.
Like everybody else I'd like to thank you for this immense body of work, I really really appreciate it.
Onto my question. How do I know when the recovery window that opens between 15-30 minutes after finishing actually starts? I mean, if I stop hiking/backpacking as in put my pack down BUT continue to move whilst putting up my test etc. is that counted as exercise, or is does the time strictly start from ending the walking phase of the day? With such a limited period of optimum uptake I don't think this is an unreasonable question? Or is it?
Thanks in advance, Scott in New Zealand!!
The window is essentially kept open by activity strenuous enough to cause glycogen drain. So, I’d say it starts closing every time you slow down below that. Conversely, it would begin reopening if activity levels rose again. The movement around camp like unpacking, setting up your tent or cooking probably isn’t enough to keep it open.
Also, it doesn’t snap shut. More of a gradual decrease and it technically never closes completely (you still get some benefit from a recovery snack even if it is taken much later, it is just a reduced amount but still better than nothing). I’ve gotten distracted and had one after an hour and still felt better than with nothing, so don’t worry too much about the clock.
Incredible video, the research you did was top notch. I'm about to do a 60 mile backpacking trip. Never used a recovery drink before. Lets see how I do. (50, female and not really fit enough!)
Thanks! Have fun and stay safe.
I would be inclined to add a scoop of creating mono to the recovery mix, too! I have found it makes a difference for me in muscle recovery, and there’s some interesting research on it out there.
100% agree! I do the same thing. I should probably compile that research and do a short add-on video.
Does a scoop mean 30 grams? Just asking because I'm buying some creatine mono and the bag says 3 grams for portion. Is a scoop(30g) just something you feel is right or is there some science behind this amount.
Sorry, I don’t remember the dosage researched, but it’s small. It’s not like a protein powder. The scoop I use is 5g
@@jodiebrignell6981 In the video Skeps recipe says 1/2 scoop of whey 15g so scoop must mean 30g and that is 10x the amount of Creatine that my bag says is 1 portion.
This got me confused. Tried to google scoop since I'm european and don't know this but got conflicting info.
Nasa spacecraft blew up from a metric math mistake ones. Luckily this is just a recovery drink. Maybe my toilet would have exploded if I hadn't asked.
Thanks for answering :)
Oh I see. It's not a metric measurement. Each supplement would have a different scoop size. Glad you didn't blow up the toilet!
Has anyone been able to find the Clif or Gatorade recovery options available in any stores? I'd love to pick them up on my AT resupplies but I'm not mailing resupply boxes so online shopping won't work to well.
Is there a recommendation or calculations as to how much recovery drink is needed? eg. An easy day hike vs a long full day mountain ascent I assume would need very different replacement amounts?
Very good question, difficult to assess for everyone.
Generally, I won’t bother with recovery unless it is at least 1.5 to 2 hours of fairly intense work. For a slower pace, 3 hours for the formal recovery drink (I use solid foods at recovery ratio as an intermediate).
To me, the described drink is good for up to 4-5hrs of moderate work.
If I’m going full day stuff, I won’t just make a bigger drink. I have two instead, spacing them out at the halfway and end points.
I think there is a lot of flexibility. Not an exact science. Hopefully that helps!
These videos are amazing, I just threw out half my resupply buckets and re-packaged them according to your guidance. Any chance we could get an Excel or Google Doc version of the list?
Yes, definitely! Give me a day or two and I will get one uploaded. I’ll reply again here when it’s ready. Thanks!
@@GearSkeptic Love the videos! Thanks for taking the time to make these. I would also like an excel version if you make one available! Thank you so much!
@@GearSkeptic Seconded. Would love a spreadsheet so I can sort by nutritional value! Great work!
On it right now! Should be up by the end of the day.
New link for an Excel download is up, see pinned comment at the top!
Thank you for your videos. My wife and I enjoy planning meals for backpacking and getting it as light as possible, and your videos are helping us take it to the next level of nutrition performance. We have been reading about how altitude changes your taste perception and how much hedonic response (positive feels) you get from different flavors. We have also been wondering how altitude alters your water usage and perhaps other nutrition. We spend most of our long backpacking trips above 9000 feet. Will be trying the recovery drink for the first time next week.
can't find the little Cliff brand packets. I wonder if they quit making it?
Unfortunately, I believe they discontinued those.
Excellent as usual...!!!
thanks again :)
I do appreciate all the work that has gone into researching and compiling this, your series is phenomenal. I shall be watching them a few times, pausing when necessary, to extract as much information as I can.
However there were two points that immediately jumped out at me.
1. The ‘complete protein/food combination’ theory for vegetarians/vegans although still often quoted has been discredited.
2. The ‘recovery window’ has also been shown as not relevant to most non-professional athletes, as most amateurs only do one exercise session in a day (eg cycling, running, weights), so just normal meals, at the usual time is adequate. However, hiking might be different, using the recovery window, with the recommended mix isn’t going to do any harm, as you’re stressing your body exercising more than usual AND throughout the day. It also ensures you ‘eat’ earlier in the day, and supplements the inadequate calories/components of the dehydrated camper’s main meal. Maybe there’s a case for two recovery meals. One after the morning ‘session’, and one after the afternoon ‘session’?
Thanks again for the videos.
What time do you typically drink your caffeinated recovery drink? Does it interfere with your sleep?
I drink it as soon as I reach camp. That way, the time it takes to setup the tent, unpack, blow up my mattress, etc. gives me time to absorb it before eating dinner.
I'm usually up for another hour or so after that, and by then it doesn't seem to interfere with sleep. Long days will put me out! Though, caffeine is highly subject to acclimation. If you aren't used to any caffeine, it could affect you more!
(sorry for the delay, by the way...for some reason I never get the notification of your question)
Your videos were incredible helpfull. However I'm a landscape photographer and mostly do 2 hikes a day (to location and back) should use a "recovery pack" after every hike or would this be harmful?
You certainly can take more than one dose of recovery, one after each session.
how about a whey protein shake, say a half portion for 10-12g of protein, and a couple tbsp of honey (30-35g of carbs)? honey is glucose and fructose. probably not a 75/25 ratio, but easy to get, easy to eat, and delicious. heavy, but you could also add it to oatmeal in the morning!
Sounds tasty! Seems like that should work well.
Clif Recovery doesn't appear to be available anymore.
Incredible.
Appreciate the work! Something that would be very helpful with the chart would be simple sort options for optimum foods per the meal categories. It'd be nice to just sort by top recovery/breakfast/etc foods and select ones I enjoy
Per several requests, I'm going to upload the chart in its native Excel format, so you will be able to sort and group as you like!
@@GearSkeptic awesome thanks!
The Excel download is up, see the pinned comment at the top.
Thank you so very much!!
You are most welcome!
Maybe I missed it, but how much water should I use for your recovery drink, or the commercial options? For example, the Gatorade Recover Whey Protein Powder says that it makes "about 12 fluid ounces" (per their website - I'm still waiting on mine to get here). Does adding the Starbucks Via change the amount of water needed? Do you prefer to use significantly more or less than the package recommendations?
I'm thinking it would make sense to use a dedicated separate bottle, both to have a wider mouth than the smartwater bottles I typically use and to avoid flavoring my primary water bottles, but I'm not sure how large of a bottle I need.
Good point! I don’t think I ever said how much water. Technically, the amount of water won’t change any of the nutrient amounts or ratios, so you could just mix to taste, or thirst. That being said, some of the research I’ve just completed on the forthcoming Hydration Strategies (Part 3) video suggests a couple of recommendations:
You want a certain amount of water per calorie consumed for digestion and nutrient transport (probably most important for solid foods, but if we assume the same for drink mixes). But, you want to take all the recovery mix quickly so it is to be essentially drunk in a short time. Therefore, I wouldn’t make the mixture too dilute or you’ll have to chug a ton of water all at once. For the portion size of mixes discussed in the video, I’d use between 12 and 16oz.
That’s just an estimate, really. I don’t think it’d hurt much if you spread that range a few more ounces in either direction. More of a taste thing, at that point.
I think that makes perfect sense. I figure a 20 oz Gatorade or Powerade bottle filled an eyeballed 2/3 - 3/4 full should be just right. Wide mouth so it’s easy to pour powders in, enough extra volume to make mixing easier without being excessively large, and sturdy enough to throw in my pack while hiking if I want to pack it away without worrying about crushing it.
Thank you for your hard work! I have Diabetes 2 and I have a long hike coming up soon. I’m at a loss for devising a recovery and rebuilding regime that does not send my blood glucose levels off-scale. Suggestions very much appreciated, thank you.
That’s a tough one. So far, I haven’t found anything that specifically addresses glycogen recovery with diabetic concerns in mind. Best I can find is this article on protein supplements. How whey isolate stimulates insulin is said to be good.
www.olympicmuscle.com/bodybuilding-supplements-diabetics-type-2/
Thank you, I’ll take a look, and pass along anything I find.
Your question is a year old but it’s important that you get an adequate answer. If you have diabetes do not follow the information here…
FYI, I eat zero carbs. I exercise intensely daily, and walk about 50+mi weekly when I’m not hiking. Your body will adapt and more then adequately replenish muscle glycogen from Gluconeogenesis in the liver. Dietary Carbohydrates are unnecessary in human physiology.
Consuming large boluses of carbohydrates is unnecessary, and for you, very unhealthy.
There is a transition phase and this timeframe is person specific. But, 2-6 months on average. The worse your diet was before going zero carb the longer it will take to adapt.
If for some reason your jet set on consuming carbs with diabetes, either for a death wish or just mentally weak, I would recommend having them prior to exercise (walking). This way they are used immediately by the muscles. Good luck to you.
As a keto hiker I have had a hard time with bonking on long high output hikes. Any suggestion on how to prevent this without high carb intake?
I’m not that familiar with keto. But, if you search “can hikers do keto” there are several interesting looking articles. One from The Trek specifically talks about what they ate and how they handled resupply on trail.
Following your advice, I've been using the CLIF recovery powder for the last year whenever I finish a bigger hike day (whether a day hike or multiple days hikes) and I have seen a big improvement in my body on the next day. Thanks so much! Question for you. I'm planning a 14 to 16 hours Presidential-range-traverse-in one day this summer in New-Hampshire, with a 45-60 mins break in mid-way (on top of Mount Washington). Should I consider this mid-point break as the "end of my day" and take a recovery drink at that point (since 8-9 hours is the usual lenght of time for my regular 'big' hikes). I would of course take the usual drink at the end of the day after the 16 hours of walking? Is there a counter indication proceeding this way? Thank you for your thoughts!
You can definitely take more than one recovery drink a day. On a trek that long, I would. In fact, I try to make my breakfast and mid-day snacks within that carb/protein ratio of 3 or 4 to 1. It makes good trail fuel, like a slower version of a recovery snack all day long. Really, what’s special about the actual Recovery Drink is that liquids are faster. The speed is useful once you’ve stopped exercising. But, if you will be continuing to exert yourself, the recovery window essentially stays open, so solid foods with the right ratio still make a good choice.
I did a separate video on Planning an Ultralight Menu for Optimal Nutrition that goes into more detail, with full sample menus for a multi-day trip.
@@GearSkeptic Thank you for your answer and advice. I was specifically concerned about this scenario of a long first portion followed with a 1h long break in the middle and a long hike after; since the recovery window closes after 30 mins, I was concerned about the extra 30 mins of break causing an issue, but wasn't sure if there was a downside to using the recovery powder midway. Now I know! I will thus prepare 2 recovery drinks, one at mid point, one at the end. Cheers N.B. I've watched all vids on the channel and have planned my menus accordingly, using the XL file: love it and has proven very useful!
You're the man.
Brilliant video - thanks so much for putting this together. I do have one question (and I realise almost certainly it's me being slow): you suggest mixing the Frog recovery sachets with a big old Gatorade bottle - but how is this possible on a multi-day hike where clearly it won't be possible to bring multiple Gatorade bottles with you?
Gatorade makes powder packets for individual servings. You can use the empty bottle over again with additional mix that you bring along!
Would Endurox R4 be a good recovery drink?
It looks very good. It has a perfect 4:1 ratio of carbs to protein, uses excellent ingredients (dextrose, whey isolate and concentrate, fructose), and seems to have additional vitamins and electrolytes, as well.
Amazing videos! Subscribed.
Thanks!
First off, thank you. These videos have me looking at my food in a completely different way. I have a question, how much water do you add to your recovery drink?
You’re welcome! I use about 16oz. It is flexible, though. It gets pretty strongly sweet if you use less water, and don’t do more than a liter (see the video on hydration strategies for the limits of what your body can process at one time).
I have created my personal recovery mix following this video. Ive come back and rewatched it a couple of times, always finding new useful info. What im still wondering is, the 4:1 ratio seems to be the dominating criteria. but how much exactly of protein/carbs do i need? what does it depend on? are 4g carbs to 1g protein enough? why not go for 400g carbs to 100g protein? (obviously this makes no sense out hiking). how do i calculate how much carbs i need in this mix?
There probably isn’t an actual calculation. It will depend on so many different factors. How much muscle mass do you have (affecting your total glycogen stores)? How much of that glycogen was depleted? How much have you been replenishing through snacks during your hike?
There is no way to measure that in the field, and it will also depend on numerous factors that can change with each and every hike. I think the best you can do is try to learn your needs through trial. If the amount of your recovery mix leaves you still suffering afterward, try increasing. It is probably ok to err on the side of extra.
For me, my listed mix is good for moderately stressful exertion of between two and four hours. For an 8-hour day, I could benefit from two recovery drinks. You can have one mid-day and keep hiking. It doesn’t have to be only at the end.
What happens if I add whey protein to my carb/electrolyte drink? 🤔 instead of making carb/protein drink
Works great. I do it all the time, adding protein to a Gatorade.
Incredible series of videos, thank you for your amazing work! I'm sure I'm missing the answer to this somewhere, but how did you land on the amounts for your own recovery drink? I.e., why not use a full scope of protein powder and pair it with the appropriate amount of carbs to get your 3.4:1 ratio instead of the half scoop you actually use? Is there a bare minimum amount of protein/carbs you actually need and anything above that is superfluous?
Actually, just through experiment. That dose is good for about every 4 hours, with lots of flexibility. Meaning: anything from 2 hours of hard exertion (like running or chopping wood) up to 6 hours of more steady pace like hiking. For an 8 hour day, I’d take two doses split up in the middle and at the end.
Excellent!
Love the video. As a university biochemistry professor, I appreciate the science based analysis. However, I offer one suggestion. I don't believe your explanation of aerobic vs. anaerobic metabolism is quite right, as it reflects a common misconception. A physiology professor friend of mine had to set me straight on this. You do not activate anaerobic metabolism because oxygen is deficient. Muscle cells doing anaerobic metabolism are fully oxygenated. In fact they get more oxygen than usual due increases heart and breathing rates ( induced by elevated CO2) and increased O2 delivery from hemoglobin (due to the Bohr Effect). Anaerobic metabolism is activated when ATP consumption exceeds the rate it can be regenerated by oxidative phosphorylation. Anaerobic metabolism is able to regenerate ATP at a faster rate, so even with plenty of O2, some carbohydrate metabolism is diverted to the anaerobic pathway to make up the ATP shortfall. However anaerobic metabolism is inherently limited due to the accumulation of the waste product, lactate (lactic acid). It is also very inefficient in terms of energy yield. The same principle is seen in all energy transducing machines in that you can have power or efficiency, but not both. Given one gallon of gas, I'll bring my Dodge Viper to a drag race but my Prius to my 50 mile race. It's also worth noting that fats are not able to support anaerobic metabolim. Also, the rate of protein catabolism is limited by the rate at which nitrogen waste can be processed. This is why it is impossible to live on a protein only diet (known as rabbit starvation).
Since caffeine can be part of the recovery, do you believe it's appropriate to use in the evening? Do you only consume one recovery a day?
You can get the same ratio by substituting the coffee packet for 2 tablespoons of sugar.
I try to take a recovery dose for each 4-5 hours of hiking, if it is strenuous. If the pace is more casual, I will only do one formal recovery drink at the end, relying on ratioed snacks during the hike itself.
I must be a weirdo; most of what you recommend isn't what I do (except eating breakfast, all on board there! wish my hiking companions liked breakfast). I am always warmest just before getting up in the morning, coldest at bedtime, no matter when I eat. I love waking up at 3-4am because then i can nestle back in warm and cozy for some really excellent pre-dawn sleep. But eating before bed will keep me awake, or at worst make me hurl, so it's not an option anyway! lol - I also dislike shakes and whatnot, so drinking that protein stuff would really make me nauseous after a day's hike. A pre-dinner snack though...
Wow, thank you so much for this very informative series! Got a quick question, if I opted for the Frog Fuel instead of the Whey, would I still have to mix it with the dextrose and sweetened coffee? Like does Frog Fuel stand on its own and accomplish the same results as your mix? Next question, using your recovery drink recipe, how much water do you add? I hope you have a quick minute to answer my questions. Thank you so much, I really enjoy your videos.
Thanks much! For my own mix, the water amount is somewhat flexible, but I use about 16oz. Any less and it gets very, very sweet.
Frog Fuel is just protein, so you need your sugars from somewhere. I use it with Gatorade, because the electrolytes are also good if you are sweating. One liter of Gatorade makes a good ratio if you squeeze one Frog Fuel packet into it, and their citrusy flavor profiles go well together!
Thanks for that! One more question if I may… does your recipe mix clump up or is it pretty easy to dissolve?
@@maryhurd5868 it dissolves well. All of the ingredients stir in easily with just a spoon (or you can just tip a bottle back and forth if it has a cap).
Thank you a lot
You are welcome!
How much water do you use for mixing with your Skep's Recovery Mix?
It’s flexible. I would do anywhere between 16 and 32oz. It’s pretty sweet, so diluting it’s some isn’t a problem, but you want to drink it fairly straight away so I wouldn’t go more than the liter.