Why Vang Comp is Wrong
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- Опубліковано 18 тра 2023
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About a hundred years ago, Hans Vang himself built a Mossberg 590 for us. Respect Tim and Hans. The Vang Comp gun is 100% The patterns are extremely consistent.
What I thought 590 came out for only 40 yrs maximum
Oh I got it… sry barely speaking English
@@ursaminor3740
From a reliability/safety standpoint, I don't think VangComp would have been in business for as long as it has if it's product was inherently dangerous, JMHO
How long has io been in business?
@@Dcm193 I've heard about them since the 90's, and have known guys who used their products with great results, but you'd have to check their website to see when they started as a company
Since the 1980s, if I remember right.
I've had my 870P and 11-87P done in 2005 when Hans was still in Isla Vista, CA. No porting. I've had no problems.
The video title is not just misleading, it's wrong.
Maybe change it to "Why I have a different opinion" because Vang Comp wasn't wrong about a single point made 🤷♂️
Correct! Totally agree!
A tighter pattern is always better. Remember you’re accountable for every pellet that comes out of that shotgun and the fighting distance might change, say if you have to go outdoors. A 1” spread per yard is a 25” pattern at 25 yards, which is unacceptable as some pellets will miss the target. This is why Federal made flight control ammo. Vang Comp just makes the shotgun shoot standard ammo like Federal flight control.
Till you are pumping a 3 inch group at 7 yards and negating a good bit of why buckshot is good .
It’s almost like this entire video was about inside the home use for a defensive shotgun.
Respectfully sir, I thought I'd add my input, based on my experience with Vang Comp products. I've had them do their full process on 4 870 barrels for me over the past 20 or so years. They're 100% GTG. You don't have to hunt for the "right" shells...they shoot all 00 buck into tighter patterns (that's important, as Flight Control and whatever the "right" shell is can be tough to find in this market). They extend the range of a 12GA 00 buck load significantly too, if that's important for a person's application. They also produce extremely tight and devastating holes at HD distances, without having to worry about deformed 00 pellets flying wide of your target and sailing through drywall into one of your kid's rooms. As a result, they do have to be aimed, just like any other HD firearm...which is fine because mine have excellent ghost ring sights and Surefire lighted forends so that I can identify my target. As a side note, Vang Comp also makes the best mag extensions and "side saddle" ammo carriers on the market, IMHO. Hans Vang has been working on, shooting and thinking about shotguns for about 50 years and knows his stuff (just as you obviously do). One of my VC 870s is my first choice for HD. Thanks for your videos and for sharing your experience.
Rob, Thanks for the feedback!!
Always awesome to hear Uncle Tim talking shottys! Classy move as usual to invite them out to go through Fighting Shotgun.
Always a pleasure to hear you speak on firearms and firearms training and even more of a pleasure to take a class with you Tim. I’ve had my 590A1 Vang Comp’ed the hell out and I’m very pleased with it. Very consistent slug rounds at 130 yards and 00 buck is cake. I’ve run four shotgun courses with it and not one glitch. Cant wait to train with you guys and gals again. God bless
You would have consistent slugs at 230 yards if you didn't have a back bored barrel and the ability to use a screw in rifled choke tubes.
After watching this video, I love my Vang Comp even more.
Tim has some valid points. I’ve cleaned up the action on my own M500 and installed a Hogue 12”LOP stock and a Big Dot as well. I did send the barrel out to get the forcing cone lengthened and polished by Rose Action Sports. She runs excellent!
And yes, figure out what shot shells pattern well for your shotgun.
The 590a1 has a heavy wall barrel that's thick as SHIT the whole length
It's entirely possible that a shotgun manufacturer is just using a barrel as is or not taking extra metal off just because it would speed up production. It could also be that they didn't bother to see what the minimum amount of metal was to speed up R&D.
I’d just leave the shotgun factory, but use magpul stock with padding for padding recoil.
There is damage and there is destroyed.
Tighter patterns destroy & can be pushed out farther (if needed) and you can be more 'surgical' IF needed.
Have you taken fighting shotgun?
@@Redpill_to_MGTOW As a stateside class? Nope.
Just a couple of years over in Afghanistan. in combat.
@@xxxlonewolf49 Why in God's name would you be carrying around a shotgun in Afghanistan of all places? Pretty much the only valid use for one there would be blowing doors of its hinges but outside of that occasional use the enemy in Afghanistan was notorious for engaging at range. Makes your claim questionable tbh.
@@armorers_wrench The amount of ASSUMPTIONS you make is amazing. Now go back to your call of duty.
@@xxxlonewolf49 , Thanks for your service, I appreciate your feedback, would love to have you come and take fighting shotgun class.
You mean to tell me the spread is different between one ammo company and another? Shocking
I would thought that the second target has its spine blown out. But I don't know much and you are the instructor. Thanks Tim.
I understand and agree with both Hans Vang and Tim. Shotgun patterns are a personal preference, some like them tight and some like them wide. My personal experience is with my Remington 870P MAX that I sent to Vang Comps for reverse bore and porting. When I got it back the pattern was tighter and the recoil is definitely reduced. I don't have chokes as an option for adjusting the pattern and I don't want to use light loads to reduce the recoil. What I got from the work Hans did on my shotgun gave me the results I wanted for my style of shooting. If you have a barrel that accepts chokes and you run light loads to reduce recoil and it works for you then carry on and enjoy your shotgun.
Well...I'd say Italian shotguns don't compromise on the metal whereas Mossberg and Remington might.
I don't work for Vang Comp, but I am a Friend and have used my guns enough to know exactly what I'm talking about. I have several Vang Comped Barrels, all on Mossberg 500's. 20" and 2 18's " and my Browning A5. Recoil reduction is not only noticeable but every instructor I have had in my 7 Front Sight Tactical Shotgun Classes has commented on it after only firing one shot! Sure you can reduce the amount of recoil by using Low Recoil Ammo which I consider to be the most prudent thing to train with, and use in your HD gun, but the Vang Comped Barrels work with "Every Kind of Ammo." Save your 3" Magnum Buck and Slugs for your upcoming Polar Bear Hunt where they would be more appropriate.
What Tim missed was not just shooting at 7 yards, but shooting at 10, 15, and 25 yards. My house has a shot that is 22 yards. If I have any kind of Low Recoil 00 Buck chucked up (Gun is kept "Cruiser Ready" chamber empty, mag full of low recoil ammo.) the first round is 00 Buck and at 22 yards it will be just under a 7" pattern. I see no reason to load anything hotter than Low Recoil and Slugs as nobody is going to live thru a Center Mass Hit with 9 pellets or a 1 oz. Slug running at 1250 fps. And it only gets worse the closer they are. How about a Hostage shot with your wife as the hostage at 5 yards. My guns are a 1" ragged hole and I am aiming (Rifle Sights) at his exposed ear or more if available. The only thing I can't control is where the wad hits. Close your eyes dear!
What Lengthening the Forcing Cone to 3" from 1/2-3/4" does for you, is lengthen the time that the reward push takes during the Recoil Impulse. Instead of an abrupt hit, it is a "smooth push." This reduces your perception of the Recoil Impulse. It is still the same amount of recoil In Ft/Lbs. it just takes longer to happen and we are talking Milli-Seconds.
Back Boring the barrel opens it up from .730 to .745 which reduces the amount of friction on the wad which in turn reduces the amount of reward push on the gun. Then the Bore is tapered back down to .730 for the last 2" at the muzzle which acts like a choke.
All this technology came from Hans working on High End Trap Shotguns, which back in the day had fixed chokes.
The Porting consists of 62 ea. 1/16" holes placed before the last 2" of the barrel which drops the pressure that would normally cram the payload into the choke, and instead essentially makes the payload "coast" thru the choked portion of the barrel. This reduces the amount of muzzle rise and allows you to get on to the next target faster. I can do 4 targets in a little over 2.5 seconds with a pump gun! And
"Not saying he's wrong, or it's bad to have Vang Comp modify a gun. I'm saying I wouldn't do it. Under stress, in a defensive fight the recoil difference won't be noticeable or give better control. And I just feel better not shaving metal off my gun that the designers of the gun put there. For tighter pattern, personally, I'd use ammo and/or chokes" -Tim
What i can say is this. I own multiple Winchester 1300 defenders and shooting my van comp barrel beside my stock 1300 is no comparison. I wouldn't want to shoot my stock unit all day when I could actually shoot my vang comp all day. It reduces the recoil that much IMHO. With that said, don't send your only shotgun to them if you dont have a spare. They currently have mulitiple barrels of mine and have had them for 10 months now. Is it worth it? Basically it turned my pump action Winchester 1300 into a shotgun that shoots a bit softer than my 1301. This is my experience, your mileage might vary.
Hey Tim! Good to see you man!! Great video, thanks!
What Mr. Yeager should know, especially if he is going to critique VANG COMP's work is this. VANG COMP WILL NOT backbore a barrel that they deem is too thin for this process. I KNOW this for a fact. When I sent my 870 to them in 2012, I was telephoned by Hans Vang. He told me my barrel was too light (barrel walls too thin) to be safely back bored....A new barrel of the proper weight would cost me $100 additional....which financially wasn't a problem since I had sent him too much $$ to begin with since I had sent money for the "a la carte" pricing instead of the "package" pricing....A fact that he humorously, and saltaly reminded me of.... The point is, VANG COMP WILL NOT make your gun unsafe to make a few $$ as implied....Their shotguns performance, reliability, and durability are LEGEND...
Perhaps a clarification is necessary regarding the use of the word "tightening". Most would take this as a reduction of pattern size. The operations that are done for forcing cones and backboring by custom workshops or by the factories themselves, tout a result in "better" of oft used "tighter" patterns. Meaning to me, ( my interpretation and their subsequent illustrations ) ones that are more consistent, with pellet spacing that is uniformily distributed thus meaning "tighter" by elimination of holes in the pattern which cause unequal distribution of said shot.
Each and every shotgun, choke, and shotshell combination will indeed pattern differently, thereby needing a shooter to find the right combination for their application and their desired result.
I believe that is the process mentioned does improve patterns by making a wider array of shotshells, of various brands to pattern more uniformly, (even across brands/types) not just "smaller", thus allowing the ammuniton choices to be broader for the user.
Todd
This is a fantastic video, I love seeing more of this content. Thanks for sharing the knowledge Tim!
Thank God someone finally preaching the gospel of choke tubes
Great Job Tim!!!
Good video. I do agree that most of the vang comp improvements can be made by adjusting chokes & ammo selection (particularly regarding patterning). I do think that low recoil ammunition isn't necessarily the best answer to the recoil question. The tradeoff with low recoil ammo is going to be in the FPS and amount of shot in the round (granted a low recoil 00 buck is going to be plenty powerful, anyway), and then it begs the question of if low recoil ammo has the same felt recoil reduction effect as the vang comp system overall (that would be an interesting side-by-side comparison). Then there's the point that you can reduce recoil *even more* by having both the vang comp system + low recoil shot. I kind of doubt that the weight reduction in the barrel is going to have any impact, especially in a Mossberg 590 that already has a heavy barrel relative to the standard 500.
But I think it mostly comes down to preference. If you *prefer* to modify your gun to have a tighter pattern across all ammo types, and *prefer* not to have to deal with chokes (or if your gun doesn't accept chokes), and *prefer* to lower your recoil overall, and you have the money to blow, then vang comp might be for you.
I can see your point, and also how Vang Comp's service could produce a beneficial result. Ultimately I'd never intend to fight with a shotgun so this data is somewhat unneeded but I do enjoy data!
Thanks for keeping it civil.
If the only thing you use your shotgun for is home defense-you are probably OK sticking with a stock gun. If you are a DEA Special Agent or a tier one operator, the Vang Comp system is what you NEED. VCS guns are worth every penny.
The only reason to own a VangComp is if you're an enthusiast and enjoy tricked out firearms. The groups you mentioned would never use a pump shotgun, or any shotgun at all for that matter (perhaps only for breaching doors as an exception). Everyone uses AR15/M4s for duty. There's nothing wrong with liking or using expensive boutique guns, but I just wish people stopped trying to mentally convice themselves that they need anything more than some basic firearms because of their John Wick scenario playing in their head.
@@paddypibblet846👏 👏 👏 Yessir. Marketing is working as intended with the masses.
Have a few Vanged barrels on 590a1s & a Police 870. They were SHTF items I kept in Blue states. Just trying to squeeze the most out of them. Not there anymore. They’re great, $$$ & the wait may be long.
At least they responded to you guys. I submitted a customer service email about 2 months ago. I am still waiting for a response. Shotty customer service. So i went on to scatter gun for a premium shot gun. They will email back and call
I see what you did there.
Tim, thanks for the informative video. Thumbs Up
Good content, Tim.
Great video Tim!
When it comes to shotguns... Listening to Tim is both informative and scary
I hope they accept the offer and show up for a class
I will always take tighter group over spread with the shotgun. Suspects are not always shot face on. the moment you increase distances, tighter rules. If you are inclose and the payload acts more like a slug vs OOB then the better. take the patterning and penetration into wound ballistics and the argument is there. Take the OOB tighter pattern and from an LE perspective where EVERY pellet is accountable, then tighter is better.
Point taken and I agree from a police standpoint, but most of my students are using the shotgun for home defense, the average distance is 10 yards, in the fighting shotgun class I teach, collateral damage is not ignored, we do a hostage shot at seven yards with the shotgun, so like the police, every pellet is accounted for, but thanks for your response
Fair points for sure. 9 pellets in the heart is a dead threat. But yes, you should always pattern you shotgun, Vang Comp system or not. Same for your defensive handgun and rifles as well as your hunting setup, thought the later can be tailored to your particular firearm.
Very interesting video, good arguments but not sure my experience with my 870 I had Vang Comp work on it back in January 2015 would reflect that. I got barrel with ports, ghost ring sights and side ammo carrier. This shotgun is amazing, every time I shoot it people always ask about it. I agree with some spread is good, but over spread is bad just the same. I choose 1 Buck from federal, it's a 15 pellet variant and it's is a fight stopper. Out of my vang comp 870 patterns are so dense at 7-10 yards and at 20 yards they are what one would see using same ammo from 7 yards. Also having the work done doesn't affect, but it does give you more capability. One of my favorite loads is most peoples worst load. Olin Corp's/Winchester Military Grade 00 Buckshot. This was designed to spread, out of my gun it's a controlled spread it's amazing. Also Flite Control gives me about super tight patterns up 45 yards. Then we got Slugs, all with reduced recoil. I don't see how this can be a negative.
Did Cody ever take you up on your offer to come to your class? I would love to see that video :)
I too have butt loads of the military grade 00 buck, some of it is federal, some is Remington and some is Olin/Winchester. Some of it dates back to the mid 80’s, seal in spam cans as I call them. What has surprised me is breaching loads out of a Vang Comp 14" barrel, which Vang Comp did not recommend you shot out of it,,,,,,but I did! Wicked!
Very informative , thank you
Uncle Tim master of the scattergun. Great video.
Shotguns- The king of versatility.
DAMN SKIPPY! I WHOLE HEARTEDLY CONCUR SIR!
I have had 2 barrels sent to Vang Comp for their service. Both have definitely improved the shot pattern over stock, in my opinion. I shoot #4 buck for home defense and with that tight pattern and the increased number of balls, I will completely liquefy any organs, bones, or muscle tissue that I hit at the test range shown in this video. I certainly respect Tim's opinion and his presentation, but I must respectfully disagree with his conclusions.
Great points.
I fully agree with what is being said here. 00 buck at these ranges is deadly. Even if you are off somewhat, low or high, left or right it is game over for the assailant. Look at the gel tests if you don’t believe me. That shot has a tendency to spread in the body and that reduces any possibility of anyone surviving such a blast. Armor is the only way out, but that blast will put someone on their ass. That is some 2000+ fpe slamming into someone and you have several more shots. Never ever use birdshot, but if you want to increase energy transfer with the lethality, go to 0000 buck. More pellets, less penetration, better energy transfer, vs less pellets, some energy loss and over penetration. More holes front and back with 00 and there are good arguments for that. Your choice. Practice!
Foreign barrel steel has poor metallurgy? Benelli and Beretta aren't number one? Doesn't beretta own and source a lot of the parts for most of the middle and high end market anymore, with Italian made barrels? I don't know where they get the steel and they could change suppliers periodically, but those Italians have it figured out.
The difference in a 3” pattern and a 7” pattern at 7 yards won’t make much of a difference if you do your part. Shotguns are devastating in close range, but run your gun how you want.
The first point makes sense (like the others).... however one might consider the following: any big company runs the risk of one in 100.000 customers doing "funny things" (like making their own "supercharged" shell) with their shotgun. If that blows up, it is bad press for any big manufacturer regardless of whose fault it was/ is. So they take extra caution and test their guns for much stronger ammution than they advise to use. (Just like an elevator company builds and tests their elevator for at least 200% of the maximum weight advertised - so noone has to worry about the lift breaking, just because there is an additional "heavyweight" squeezing into it). So that leaves quite some room for "shaving off" metal IF you don't do "funny stuff" and adhere to the recommendations.
Only thing I don't like about what tim said is reducing recoil by using reduced power loads. If you can reduce recoil on full power loads, that seems like a win for some people. That being said, I'm not getting my shotgun permanently modified. Love Tim's videos though.
7:13 ohhhhhh Tim. Somebody turn Tim into a gif, please
Larry Nichols, Burbank PD was one of the first to order Hans Vang barrels.
“Do the same thing with low recoil shells”
No, because you’re reducing the effectiveness of the load fired. The idea is to reduce the recoil of full power loads, giving you proper effect on target while mitigating muzzle rise and felt recoil.
Well done Tim.
Fudd overload
Mr Yeager good video. I don't agree but it does put out good information most people don't think about. I only have 43 years of working for different U.S. government agencies carrying a firearm in this and a few other countries. As others have responded the loss of a pellet outside your intended target is not a good thing in any scenario that may cause collateral damage. The Vang Comp-modified weapons give the user an edge that a standard weapon does not. Yes, you can use different types of ammo to change patterns and performance but think of the same improvements with a better than standard barrel. I have used many different weapons during my life and will always use the one that gives me the edge in a fight as Mr Jordan said "There is no second place".
Great video! I agree with your analysis except for American metallurgy vs foreign. In general you may be correct however I believe the Italian mfg's are the exception such as Beretta, Benelli and Franchi. The Italians have been making making cannons far longer than the Americans. Even the 1301 which you mention as being 6lbs which I took from you as a disadvantage. I would have complete trust in the metallurgy and overall build quality of a Beretta 1301.
Chad, I agree with you about the above mentioned companies, I should have been more specific, I was really talking about guns produced in Turkey and some other less desirable countries, I believe that Beretta uses a Cryo treatment on their barrels, and it produces a very strong barrel
Not that my opinion matters in any significant way but I think pretty much everything said made perfect sense. I don't know who could accurately speak to the durability of barrels but aside from that I think a shotgun should probably spread it's pattern and that the money you could spend on vang comp could go towards ammo. Also no shade on anybody I'm sure they do good work at vang comp and live how you wanna live but for my money I'll invest in ammo and myself.
Thanks for the video, Tim. I say this with all respect, you made me realize that I really need to get my 590A1 over to Vang Comp.
I also want to take your class, and need to sign up for one.
I don't like the idea of a home defense shotgun, because my wife would struggle a lot more using a shotgun, than she would either a pistol or an AR-15.
I agree, a full size shotgun is difficult for a lady or small stature person, but Remington and Mossberg both make a youth model pump action shotguns and with low recoil ammunition, you still have a good home defense tool
agree with you. wanted a tac 14 because its small and i dont plan on shooting very far with it.
ill just buy ammo to do what i want it to do at those distances.
i did buy the little clamp on fiber optic but if that junk breaks or doesnt help i can pop it right off.
havent even added the velcro side saddle and cards yet but ive got pouches and bags i can easily throw on to carry extra shells.
beretta a300 ultima patrol or lever guns might be the most viable option in the pnw now and even then i dont know how much of the fun stuff you can still get or afford if its even available.
I’m mainly interested reducing recoil without needing the special rounds
I'm late to the party seeing this video which is very good. Two things in favor of a tighter pattern: First, it's more mass hitting closer together which is not unlike the use of a hollow point slug. The temporary and permanent cavity is devastating. The damage will be more concentrated/central. Second, distance dispersion is something to take into consideration. As far as effect, pellet dispersion to other organs such and the liver, lower lobes of the lungs, general abdomen organs is generally inconsequential compared to concentrated trauma to the heart, aorta, pulmonary artery and spine behind the heart. As far as whether you go with the Vang System or use Chokes, that is user preference but personally I prefer the fixed system. In my experience, the Vang system is highly consistent and rugged. It is especially a great performer with the 14 and 12 inch barrels. A number of departments have used the latter for over two decades now.
You make some good points but I have to respectfully disagree. Hans Vang is a wealth of knowledge with a great personality/attitude, I’ve spent over a half hour on the phone with him picking his brain. The benefit of back boring is minimized shot deformation which makes for a more consistent pattern you can’t get with choke tubes and a short forcing cone. Second, a wider pattern would be beneficial for a quick stoppage “if” you can guarantee you never need to shoot past a certain distance(in the case you may need to take a longer shot some pellets will miss your target which reduces effectiveness at the least but also becomes a potentially dangerous liability, you are accountable for every projectile). May not sound like it but I did like the vid, main reason I’m disagreeing is with mods or different shotguns you can have a very versatile platform…as long as you don’t limit its capabilities to a very specific use and/or distance. Keep up the good work, you made me think and type so I’m calling that a win! FYI, I’m sure Mr Vang would be happy to talk to you if you call. R.I.P Mr Yeager
Adam, thanks for the feedback, I don't disagree in principle, but if I can accomplish the same results without altering the shotgun and saving the money to use for other things, like ammunition and training. Then I think that is a better choice.
I could see the VC shotguns being beneficial for law enforcement when all we had were shotguns. As stated if your issued a specific round and you want to optimize it for varying distances. Now that we mostly if not completely use rifles, this is kind of moot. For non-le, if they can afford a VC, then they can afford some type of rifle for things other than inside the home which is going to be better suited anyway. Again, in todays day, not really necessary. But if someone wants one, go for it. We each have our peculiarities.
Tim solo it’s going to go off the rails😂
I have a 1974 Wingmaster with a 30" full choke barrel, and the barrel alone weighs like 7 pounds lol
So... If I get my unthreaded barrel cut for choke tubes and/or I can find and afford the special Flight Control ammo, I can get the spread reduction without needing the Vang Comp mod. Sounds right.
If I can find and afford reduced recoil ammo, I can get the recoil reduction without needing the Vang Comp mod. Also sounds right.
Guess if I want both, I just need to get my barrel cut for choke tubes and find and be able to afford reduced recoil Flight Control ammo.
Hope the reduced power of the reduced recoil is still enough. Wonder how long it will take shooting more expensive specialty ammo to match the cost of a Vang Comp mod. Especially with the cost of choke threads and chokes added in.
Don’t a scatter gun violet accountability? Now that I propose this question, I guess it’s user dependent, a rifle may be more suitable for one’s living situation.
Different strokes for different folks that's all. A little constructive criticism ain't the same as talking down to em. Good video brother.
Now, just imagine a Vang Comp shotgun "WITH" LOW RECOIL" shells that are not "specialty" shells that are hard to find sometimes. Wow, what a great combo. Now imagine a Vang Comp shotgun shooting buck and slugs in the same loading (maybe for back woods carry or even self defense) without having to worry about damaging your choke/barrel with the slug? and getting tight patterns with cheap buck shot and cheap slugs on a budget or if that's all you can find. Nice!
"If you want a tighter pattern, use a slug."
I never got the tighter pattern obsession. Shotguns were made to increase hit probability! If you want a tight pattern, I'd think you'd use a rifle if that was such a concern.
I think the concern is the pellets that miss ... not the ones that hit. At 7 yards, that's not much of a concern. But, at 10, 15, 25 ...
@Kevin M I get it. We don't want a bystander to be hurt.
But then, if that's such a concern, use a slug or a rifle. Like James said, you "neuter" a shotgun when you limit the spreading of the pellets.
@@dominicvasquez6469 that's exactly the point of the VC. If you've chosen a shotgun for defense that's what you're going to have. When the fight changes and suddenly there are "non-shootables" you can't call a time out and go grab something else, or my not have time to unload and change ammo.
I think the middle ground is a VC barrel with #1 Buck ... lots of pellets, a little more spread (as compared to 00 from a VC'd barrel), and more tissue damage.
But, also, Tim is talking about 7 yards (which is his in house shot distance). For that range, yes, a VC barrel isn't much use. But, for those with longer possible shots, it starts to make more sense.
@Kevin M I'm not sure what you mean by, "If you've chosen a shotgun for defense, that's what you're going to have." Nobody needs a Vang Comp shotgun to defend themselves.
They don't have the spread of a cylinder bore shotgun and don't have the range or capacity of a rifle. Seems like a big waste of money that could be better spent on ammo.
@@dominicvasquez6469 You suggested that, someone with a shotgun (so a shotgun is what they are going to have ... ) suddenly facing a longer range incident should change ammo or change weapons .... changing weapons simply isn't realistic, and changing ammo takes precious time. VC removes the need to change ammo (give or take) out to 30 yards.
You may want 4 of 9 pellets going into the lungs at 7 yards. I am okay with all 9 going through the heart and spine. But, I load mine with #1 Buck, so that's 16 pellets, and at 7 yards there is some spread with the pellets hitting each other, but the pattern is enough to be effective out to around 25 yards with no need to change to slugs.
VC makes a shotgun more shootable and more versatile. If you don't see the benefit, then you don't have to have yours modified. It's all good.
Appreciate you Tim. Pure and to the point.
a shotgun is only good for home degense? what the? really! how far can a slug travel out of a 18.5 inch berral? the other defense rounds not being slug how far 25-30feet inside the house? hm something to think about.
Good argument both sides
I disagree with the video, A Berreta 1301 and a Benelli M4 are Italian made and are the best shotguns you can buy, Tim himself seems to be fond of the Italian Berreta 1301. Compared to what? a rusty USA Remington 870?
Sadly the new 870s need better quality control
This day and age, CNC machining being what it is, if the info is fed in right to the computer, they are all good! I applaud Beretta for building their A300 line in Tennessee USA. I also love their Italian made 1301 tactical.
Tim coming in hot with a great Video!!!
just more options, and the more the better....
Crystal clear explanation and reasoning.
Title of video is 100% misleading as nothing he said proves or is evident to show Vang comp is wrong. He listed opinion and speculation but no evidence to support his claims. If Vang comp was making barrels so thin it's dangerous where are all the blown up guns? They've been doing this for decades and it doesn't happen. They proof their barrels and know what pressures can be tolerated. His comment about porting and gas in his face... in what possible position can you fire a shotgun at a person where that becomes a problem?? I'm sure this guy is well versed on handling shotguns but making a video using personal opinion with no evidence shows poor judgement. As by the comment section I think it's fair to say sir your opinion .....is wrong. {Side note I have 2 vang comp worked shotguns and I'd never trade them for an factory barrel gun.}
Jory , the point I was making, is that everything Van Comp does to their shotguns, can be done without altering the shotgun, just by using factory chokes, or different ammunition, their shotguns are safe, I said that in the video, I was simply pointing out there is an alternate way to achieve the same results without back boring, lengthening the forcing cones or porting the barrel. Why spend the money? as far as the porting goes, yes porting can be dangerous to the operator, building clearing, in confined spaces, or using the shotgun in a car. I have used shotguns in such places, I definitely don't want a ported gun of any kind, If a person needs a ported barrel to control the muzzle, they need to hold the weapon correctly.
@@timmorris932 Thanks for responding. I think this video as with many many others comes down to personal opinions and not black and white right or wrong. I do not in any way question your knowledge or experience as you are likely more versed than 99% of the people who shoot a shotgun. I think if you were able to make a open live Q&A about this topic and people could have real world discussions with you a lot of misconceptions might be resolved. Thanks for all the great content you've posted, I have some of them saved in favorites folder regarding shotgun issues.
@timmorris932 how is porting dangerous to the user?
Or… with a tighter spread, you can completely destroy one organ…
We want to Diversify our portfolio of damage, not all our buck in one basket🤷♂️
I miss Yeager I really enjoyed his videos. This is still a vary informative video.
A thought provoking (and quite respectful) video.
My (completely amateur) takeaway from it: if you have a circumstance that requires a consistently tighter pattern, Vang Comp (minus the porting -different discussion) offers a viable and reliable solution.
In my case, from one end of one master bedroom down a hallway to the far end of the second master bedroom is just about 25 yards with lots of kids' bedrooms coming off that long hallway. That's making me take a good long look at Vang Comp. But I recognize it's a unique situation.
I would REALLY like someone from Vang Comp to take the Tactical Response shotgun class. I can only envision a good and thoughtful exchange of ideas.
If someone were to ask me if Tim or Vang Comp were right on this one, my only answer would be, "Yes."
I would trust sentinel concepts words on vang comp. He actually uses their shotguns and teaches shotguns.
I believe Cody has taken a sentinel concepts shotgun class. I could be wrong. But e-mail bang comp and I’m sure they would answer. They may not even be watching this video to get the invite. You all could also asl Steve Fisher on the why’s of the Vang comp system. It’s nothing new. Been around for a while.
@@ramos5464
Last time I checked, Tim teaches Shotgun... :)
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Rd,
@@EdSileo it’s also good to get another perspective. Especially someone that uses a lot of vang comp stuff. Who is also an instructor. You’d be surprised learning from several reputable people what you’ll learn.
@@ramos5464
That's why my answer to the question I posed was, "Yes."
Maybe yuppies who don't know much will like a van komp but I heard good things about them
gay
Pretty sure turning the heart into hamburger with a tight pattern has a more immediate effect than poking one or two holes in it with a open pattern.
Truly a professional to his job profession and the industry.
If theyre so bad how come they outlived you 🤔
He sounds like someone broke his heart . The service vang comp provides is stuff that target shooters have been doing to there shoot guns for decades long before vang comp started doing it to police shoot guns back bore and comp are proven to work over decades of competitive shooting by thousands of shooters .
I know I spelled shot wrong fu
👍🏻
Oooo. Looks like your wrong buddy.
Dead is dead
I love me some Tim!
👍🏼👍🏼
Sounds like solid advice to me.
I'm still not clear on why Vang Comp is wrong? I can see that you have a different idea of things but using the term wrong and producing a video that they are wrong and you are right dosen't make sense. So you disagree... As far as spread, it isn't now what it was as 20 years ago. Most modern cartridges shoot tight patterns.
Fud
This is silly all around.
so many butt hurt fan boys here. Tribalism is real yo. It was never said that VC was wrong, misleading, full of S, and not safe and effective, only that there is another way to achieve similar results with some time and vetting and personal set up. Dang both ways are fine. Ya want a proven product that is quick and cool and 1300-1500 more, go VC. Ya want sleeper, easier to defend in court (where ya live dependent), put in your own time and find an ammo that works best for your own set up and use distances responsibly. cheers.
This dude has no idea what he’s talking about.
You absolutely don’t want a large pattern with a defensive shotgun.
No, you can’t achieve the same thing with chokes and buckshot. Going too tight on a choke will reform the pellets and give you a wider pattern.
Get out of here with your fudd-lore BS, “I want a bigger pattern because then you don’t even have to aim!”
No. You want as tight a pattern as possible. A single pellet won’t do enough damage on its own. Buckshot works through clustering.
Screw in choke tubes in the modified or full constriction range will pattern buckshot of any factory loading significantly better than anything Vang Comp can do via back-boring and elongating factory forcing cones, regardless of what the tacticool Range Ninjas say.
Choke tubes are also much more versatile and cheaper.
If Vang Comp's modifications were so revolutionary and truly superior to chokes, why haven't we seen serous duck, goose and waterfowl hunters turn in their choked barrels for a Vang Comp one?
Those guys actually use their shotguns for real-World utility purposes rather than shooting paper targets and fantasizing about home invasions on a shooting range.
If you're truly anal about shot pattern in your cylinder-bore home defense shotgun then just get some Federal flight control buckshot or use a damn slug.
Vang Comp's mods offer nothing over standard choke constrictions except a gimmicky larger hole in your wallet.
For a tactical / home defense, there is zero reason to port a Shotgun. If it comes ported fine, but don't waste money on an aftermarket widget. Keep it stock, but add a light, a side saddle, and a sling. If you're older or smaller and cant handle a 12 then get a 20 gauge. I find some of the developments form the shooting games to be ridiculous and a unnecessary cost for carry or home defense.
Vang comp is for people with more money than brains
Vang Comp, or whatever they are called, are useless in my opinion. If you want a tighter pattern, use a slug or rifle as James has suggested.
A shotgun is a poor mans weapon, and inside 25 yards, with buckshot, is still valuable tool for home defense.