I think one important thing was omitted: that Paul can see the future and (at least in the book) has constant internal monologues, or rather fights about what should be the right course of action that he can influence. It is for the reader then to decide what internal motive made Paul decide the way he did.
Agreed. The romantic chemistry between Paul and Chani wasn't there and nothing about Zendaya comes across as a hardened warrior. She's not a terrible actor she just lacks the gravitas and natural intensity for the roll.
Fatalist: Abomination were feared and considered very dangerous by the Sisterhood. Abomination were people with access to ego(echo) -memory Which gave them knowledge but as well many ended up seeing themselves as the only one with the knowledge. Ego-memory made themselves aware of secrets usually happening by consume of the water of life. For this reason the knowledge of the golden path is fatalist to know the future you can not change future since the future is already known. And trapped in this knowledge how they are manipulated by the priests they become slaves to their own mind. The sleeper has awakened and the knowledge about the mass psychosis upon all people and how to control over people and how all are puppets and how to make these puppets dance. Something paul ancestors never learned. Because the priests had plans to pick the next faction to become the next emperor by breeding Paul bloodline throught ages with powerful men. Paul was a mistake and an abomination and his son Leto the 2nd was an abomination and the Fremen were as well partial abominations for being in the twilight zone for constantly seeing new futures they were manipulated by an open mind. Conclusion is that Paul was as much a cog in the machine. He didn't try to escape the machine. Instead he dug himself deeper into the core and the power generator who keeps the machine running. Replace abomination with corruption. Paul don't think there is a choice than to pick a golden path and keep going in that direction. Paul is bred to be a computer human and computers are very good at thinking but unable to think in a different way. Being able to take control over the guilds monopoly on space travel. Preventing the ending of civilization expansion and open the universe from the known worlds to the unknown worlds. The empire and the spice and the guilds slowly killing civilization in need to control everything and abominations have no control over their own decisions with the knowledge available. For this reason they become their own tragedy. Human have animal traits but if we would remove them we would be no different to a computer. So they tried to make a compromise of both. A computer able to control everyone with the emotion of a human and mortality of a human. A 100% biological computer where source code is access through the memory.
I was a little confused with the changes to Zendaya's character from the book but I ultimately am glad they wrote her as a skeptical figure. I think it would have been far more difficult to explain that Paul's role isn't an inherent good without a character like hers
It adds her as a skeptic to her peoples own beliefs, the very same beliefs her father (changed to her mother in Villeneuve's version) fostered in all the Fremen to unite them, not even counting the Bene Gesserit missionaries doing their thing. It's also ridiculous because book Channi knows she'll be a concubine officially, but was unofficially his wife with Princess Irulan being a purely political marriage. Jessica sums it up nicely by saying history will remember them as wives.
Lots of criticism here is pretty unwaranted. The romance was forced? Timothee wasn't imposing enough? Have you read the books? Paul is supposed to be slim, as is Feyd, it helps emphasise the importance of other elements like wits
It's not the same characters as in the novel since it was she who proposed the wedding with the princess but she doesn't do it in the movie because they are going to kill her off.
*SPOILER*…. I liked this movie, but the it ultimately depended on how Paul would be convinced to take the water of life after being *totally* against the idea. What would break it? And unfortunately the destruction of the fremen temple absolutely was not big enough for me. The decision felt far too rushed.
I can get this point of view. I think what wasn't explained very well is that the Fremen society that was bombed was just the start, and that the Harkonnen were on a path to kill all of the Fremen. Paul knew *before* drinking the water that a war was inevitable, my interpretation anyway.
Dune 2 surpassed my expectations. A visual feast with weighty underlying themes. However, I didn't care for Zendaya's character at all...with you on that. it wasn't a bad performance, it just didn't click for me
Dune has had the reputation as being unfilmable and to be honest I don't think this recent adaptation has done anything to diminish that. I actually loved the 1st installment and I thought it was setting us up for something absolutely epic with part 2. Don't get me wrong I thought it was good but it fell short of expectations for me. I understand that not everything could have been fitted in despite it's long run time . However it begs the question why did they labour on certain aspects of the story that had already been re-enforced while fairly important aspects of the Dune story were pretty much mentioned in passing. The importance of the Space Guild in the storyline seemed to relegated to simple mention in part 1. I could go on . In conclusion if this had been confirmed to be trilogy from day one I think a far better movie could have emerged , and perhaps a series could pick up where this left off. My tuppence worth.
Yep agree with the “eh” camp on this one. Zendaya was the weakest part of the movie. Not terrible but simply the only mediocre performance. Pretty much agree with this whole review 100%. Glad to finally have a great movie to watch in the theatre again. Is it all time great? Maybe not but also, it could be. I think some time away from the hype will tell. But to me the hype is well deserved at the moment.
I still don't like the movie, perhaps because it completely removes all the messy political aspect that was happening in addition to Pauls personal vendetta against the Harkonnen and by extension the Emperor. It's why I still like the Sci-Fi miniseries instead for not only keeping that, but acknowledging that he isn't apprehensive about his role as the Dukes son, as he was a political animal before he was even born by virtue of being the heir of a noble house. To think he would be hesitant to use the power that came with his station is absurd, and it's why he also leans into the old prophecies to use the Fremen for his own goals...and also how it backfires when Paul becomes trapped by the same prophecy and future he lead everyone into. No amount of future sight can change events that are inevitable.
I don't like Zendaya. I don't like her as Chani, and I don't like the fact that Villeneuve turned Chani into a scowling monument of current day anti-populist thought.
Chani was a nightmare. they made the inexplicable choice to make her the voice of post-modern anti-religion secularism. she then finally girl powers herself out of his life when he needs her most, despite the fact that at that moment she has just lost her and paul's son. they are devoted lovers....Paul already has a sort of second servant wife before Irulan. Chani's good with it man, it comes off as islamophobic western mores crammed onto her character which is batshizz...she is absolutely devoted to him and her people both, she's a fremen priestess. whereas here she sits being constantly heretical, annoying and mean. just another boring fighter with bedroom eyes. the only thing left is her physical attractiveness to explain why paul wants movie chani around at all. As for Paul, you forget that Paul's motivation switches abruptly when he drinks the water of life, and he becomes kwizatch haderach. he is able to see vast swathes of the future and past. the entire time before he is simply trying to keep hisself and his pregnant mother alive, while being terrified of the visions he has of the coming Jihad and his part in it. he is consumed with preventing it. every action he takes is to prevent it. *everything he does* is to stop it... Then he drinks and gains enough precience to see to the other side of the Jihad and realizes he cannot hold it back, only direct it. which he does. He knows by dying even he makes it worse. he is hemed in and ensnared by imperial schemes, Bene Gesserit schemes, Guild schemes, Choam schemes. like alexander he has no choice but to slash through the knot of their sole unity in avarice for the spice melange he becomes a monster in order to lay the foundation of the worm-tyrant (who puts up a respectable 20,000 year regime of peace) while also crushing a corrupt and decadent empire that has personally sicced "boring" monsters on him to destroy every. single. thing. he loves.
that "boring" leadership, has just taken it's depraved attack dogs in the harkonnens, empowered them with sardaukar ..which are slave super-soldiers made in secret on salusa secondus (like sci-fi unsullied) and sent them to ethnically cleanse the fremen and destroy every single thing paul loves....all for profit how is his war unjustified?
@@trashpraxis. you're not wrong, but I can match them up as see what's changed and decide if I like that. the fact that adaptation isn't perfect doesnt render invalid all value judgements...or blind me to the modern shifts that implies... if the argument is that Paul should lay down and die...I reject that. he didnt choose blood. the "boring" ones did that the fremen should accept subjugation...that too I reject. they are a brown people being ethnically cleansed...and we disdain them why? their faith is barbarous? hell yes it is, *and they are right* it's their prophecy that comes true isn't it? the religion that keeps them alive on the harsh planet to which they were banished is "wrong" or backwards...I reject that. that Chani is somehow empowered by ridiculing her own people or that she should abandon paul, don'tneednoman a few hot-girl-summers, have a few abortions, then get a corporate job in an office shipping spice....I reject that too. post-modern hogwash for 29yo cat-moms to self-insert into. in the book Chani waits for 30 days for paul to wake from the spice-trance...wetting his lips with the first tears *she's ever cried* . Her devotion makes my heart ache right now as I write this. in the movie *she physically abuses him* then stalks him to a cathedral, where he stares down the most dangerous men in the galaxy, and shames him with her faithless whining...blech if this is a story about crippling leadership, it's a story of the ruthless and stifling matriarchy of the Bene Gesserit. if it's a story about rebel women, it's about Jessica loving Leto enough to defy them and bear paul, then surrender her son bravely to be destroyed or to claim his kingdom... all the same lessons are there to be shown, how they chose to do it is telling
Uhh my guy, it makes sense because her mother and grandfather were both from the imperium. Her grandfather literally trick the fremen into his ecological experiment and was the first to use religion to their advantage. So it makes sense that she’s more cautious and not to mention she speaks to Paul on a more intimate level than anyone so she knows when he’s behaving differently than what’s desired and in her people’s best interest. Not to mention if you read the books, you know the eventual fate of the fremen culture. She not wrong and she’s a direct vocal critic of Frank Herbert himself. The ultimate contrast that reveals the main themes of the story.
@@The_preserver_x16 yeah and what is her father like, he dies for Paul too, because he believes. She like paul, starts out terrified by the prophecy, afraid of the belief welling up around them... *but it doesn't matter to her because she loves him* she stands guard at his door killing men with a knife to protect him. then it becomes apparent that Paul muah'dib is the one. he does survive the water, he is the kwizatch haderach... the missionaria protectiva seed the prophecy as a farce indeed. ever consider that god is at work behind the story. everyone thinks it's nonsense including the modern audience except the fremen...but they are correct in the end are they not? it is true. In the end paul does indeed become the messiah, he does lead the fremen to battle, he does make a way for the tyrant and his peace, which does lead Arrakis to become a verdant planet....
I liked this movie just as much as the first one personally. Both are great films that highlight different parts. I do feel a little weird about how heavy the Islamic motifs are used in part 2 to service a white man as a leader, and I can't really pinpoint why I feel weird about it, maybe it's because I am worried about how people saw Islam in the 2000s during the war on terror and how they might see that again. Because I doubt the media literacy of many people. Overall pretty great movie and I recommend it 👌
Dune 2 is overrated and overhyped as hell. The pacing of this movie before Paul went north is all over the place. And somehow Chani is annoying and hated even more than the protagonists of this mess of a movie
I think one important thing was omitted: that Paul can see the future and (at least in the book) has constant internal monologues, or rather fights about what should be the right course of action that he can influence. It is for the reader then to decide what internal motive made Paul decide the way he did.
Agreed. The romantic chemistry between Paul and Chani wasn't there and nothing about Zendaya comes across as a hardened warrior. She's not a terrible actor she just lacks the gravitas and natural intensity for the roll.
After a second viewing, I can't tell whether Paul was a cynic, a fatalist, or a humanist.
Fatalist:
Abomination were feared and considered very dangerous by the Sisterhood.
Abomination were people with access to ego(echo) -memory
Which gave them knowledge but as well many ended up seeing themselves as the only one with the knowledge.
Ego-memory made themselves aware of secrets usually happening by consume of the water of life.
For this reason the knowledge of the golden path is fatalist to know the future you can not change future since the future is already known. And trapped in this knowledge how they are manipulated by the priests they become slaves to their own mind.
The sleeper has awakened and the knowledge about the mass psychosis upon all people and how to control over people and how all are puppets and how to make these puppets dance.
Something paul ancestors never learned. Because the priests had plans to pick the next faction to become the next emperor by breeding Paul bloodline throught ages with powerful men.
Paul was a mistake and an abomination and his son Leto the 2nd was an abomination and the Fremen were as well partial abominations for being in the twilight zone for constantly seeing new futures they were manipulated by an open mind.
Conclusion is that Paul was as much a cog in the machine. He didn't try to escape the machine. Instead he dug himself deeper into the core and the power generator who keeps the machine running.
Replace abomination with corruption. Paul don't think there is a choice than to pick a golden path and keep going in that direction. Paul is bred to be a computer human and computers are very good at thinking but unable to think in a different way.
Being able to take control over the guilds monopoly on space travel. Preventing the ending of civilization expansion and open the universe from the known worlds to the unknown worlds. The empire and the spice and the guilds slowly killing civilization in need to control everything and abominations have no control over their own decisions with the knowledge available. For this reason they become their own tragedy. Human have animal traits but if we would remove them we would be no different to a computer. So they tried to make a compromise of both. A computer able to control everyone with the emotion of a human and mortality of a human.
A 100% biological computer where source code is access through the memory.
a little of all 3 but mostly a fatalist IMO
I was a little confused with the changes to Zendaya's character from the book but I ultimately am glad they wrote her as a skeptical figure. I think it would have been far more difficult to explain that Paul's role isn't an inherent good without a character like hers
It adds her as a skeptic to her peoples own beliefs, the very same beliefs her father (changed to her mother in Villeneuve's version) fostered in all the Fremen to unite them, not even counting the Bene Gesserit missionaries doing their thing. It's also ridiculous because book Channi knows she'll be a concubine officially, but was unofficially his wife with Princess Irulan being a purely political marriage. Jessica sums it up nicely by saying history will remember them as wives.
There is nothing in either Dune part that suggests Chani is the daughter of Liet Kynes here@mrbigglezworth42
At the 3rd minute and I'm checked out due to your interpretation of the romance as quick or forced, questioning if we watched the same film
Lots of criticism here is pretty unwaranted. The romance was forced? Timothee wasn't imposing enough? Have you read the books? Paul is supposed to be slim, as is Feyd, it helps emphasise the importance of other elements like wits
It's not the same characters as in the novel since it was she who proposed the wedding with the princess but she doesn't do it in the movie because they are going to kill her off.
*SPOILER*….
I liked this movie, but the it ultimately depended on how Paul would be convinced to take the water of life after being *totally* against the idea. What would break it? And unfortunately the destruction of the fremen temple absolutely was not big enough for me. The decision felt far too rushed.
I can get this point of view. I think what wasn't explained very well is that the Fremen society that was bombed was just the start, and that the Harkonnen were on a path to kill all of the Fremen. Paul knew *before* drinking the water that a war was inevitable, my interpretation anyway.
Dune 2 surpassed my expectations. A visual feast with weighty underlying themes. However, I didn't care for Zendaya's character at all...with you on that. it wasn't a bad performance, it just didn't click for me
Dune has had the reputation as being unfilmable and to be honest I don't think this recent adaptation has done anything to diminish that. I actually loved the 1st installment and I thought it was setting us up for something absolutely epic with part 2. Don't get me wrong I thought it was good but it fell short of expectations for me. I understand that not everything could have been fitted in despite it's long run time . However it begs the question why did they labour on certain aspects of the story that had already been re-enforced while fairly important aspects of the Dune story were pretty much mentioned in passing. The importance of the Space Guild in the storyline seemed to relegated to simple mention in part 1. I could go on . In conclusion if this had been confirmed to be trilogy from day one I think a far better movie could have emerged , and perhaps a series could pick up where this left off. My tuppence worth.
Solid analysis 🧐 thank you
Video description: In this video, I discuss the latter*
I kept waiting for a discussion of ladders. 😂
Yep agree with the “eh” camp on this one. Zendaya was the weakest part of the movie. Not terrible but simply the only mediocre performance. Pretty much agree with this whole review 100%. Glad to finally have a great movie to watch in the theatre again. Is it all time great? Maybe not but also, it could be. I think some time away from the hype will tell. But to me the hype is well deserved at the moment.
I still don't like the movie, perhaps because it completely removes all the messy political aspect that was happening in addition to Pauls personal vendetta against the Harkonnen and by extension the Emperor. It's why I still like the Sci-Fi miniseries instead for not only keeping that, but acknowledging that he isn't apprehensive about his role as the Dukes son, as he was a political animal before he was even born by virtue of being the heir of a noble house. To think he would be hesitant to use the power that came with his station is absurd, and it's why he also leans into the old prophecies to use the Fremen for his own goals...and also how it backfires when Paul becomes trapped by the same prophecy and future he lead everyone into. No amount of future sight can change events that are inevitable.
Paul Atredis = Eren Jeager
I mean the story of Dune predates the later AoT chapters by over 50 years
Eren: 1,599,999,586 (using the wall titans).
Paul: 60 billions and multiple planets sterilized (Using the fremen).
I don't like Zendaya. I don't like her as Chani, and I don't like the fact that Villeneuve turned Chani into a scowling monument of current day anti-populist thought.
Chani was a nightmare. they made the inexplicable choice to make her the voice of post-modern anti-religion secularism. she then finally girl powers herself out of his life when he needs her most, despite the fact that at that moment she has just lost her and paul's son.
they are devoted lovers....Paul already has a sort of second servant wife before Irulan.
Chani's good with it man, it comes off as islamophobic western mores crammed onto her character
which is batshizz...she is absolutely devoted to him and her people both, she's a fremen priestess.
whereas here she sits being constantly heretical, annoying and mean. just another boring fighter with bedroom eyes. the only thing left is her physical attractiveness to explain why paul wants movie chani around at all.
As for Paul, you forget that Paul's motivation switches abruptly when he drinks the water of life, and he becomes kwizatch haderach. he is able to see vast swathes of the future and past.
the entire time before he is simply trying to keep hisself and his pregnant mother alive, while being terrified of the visions he has of the coming Jihad and his part in it. he is consumed with preventing it. every action he takes is to prevent it. *everything he does* is to stop it...
Then he drinks and gains enough precience to see to the other side of the Jihad and realizes he cannot hold it back, only direct it. which he does. He knows by dying even he makes it worse. he is hemed in and ensnared by imperial schemes, Bene Gesserit schemes, Guild schemes, Choam schemes. like alexander he has no choice but to slash through the knot of their sole unity in avarice for the spice melange
he becomes a monster in order to lay the foundation of the worm-tyrant (who puts up a respectable 20,000 year regime of peace) while also crushing a corrupt and decadent empire that has personally sicced "boring" monsters on him to destroy every. single. thing. he loves.
that "boring" leadership, has just taken it's depraved attack dogs in the harkonnens, empowered them with sardaukar ..which are slave super-soldiers made in secret on salusa secondus (like sci-fi unsullied) and sent them to ethnically cleanse the fremen and destroy every single thing paul loves....all for profit
how is his war unjustified?
exactly!
@@trashpraxis. you're not wrong, but I can match them up as see what's changed and decide if I like that. the fact that adaptation isn't perfect doesnt render invalid all value judgements...or blind me to the modern shifts that implies...
if the argument is that Paul should lay down and die...I reject that. he didnt choose blood. the "boring" ones did
that the fremen should accept subjugation...that too I reject. they are a brown people being ethnically cleansed...and we disdain them why? their faith is barbarous? hell yes it is, *and they are right* it's their prophecy that comes true isn't it?
the religion that keeps them alive on the harsh planet to which they were banished is "wrong" or backwards...I reject that.
that Chani is somehow empowered by ridiculing her own people or that she should abandon paul, don'tneednoman a few hot-girl-summers, have a few abortions, then get a corporate job in an office shipping spice....I reject that too. post-modern hogwash for 29yo cat-moms to self-insert into.
in the book Chani waits for 30 days for paul to wake from the spice-trance...wetting his lips with the first tears *she's ever cried* . Her devotion makes my heart ache right now as I write this.
in the movie *she physically abuses him* then stalks him to a cathedral, where he stares down the most dangerous men in the galaxy, and shames him with her faithless whining...blech
if this is a story about crippling leadership, it's a story of the ruthless and stifling matriarchy of the Bene Gesserit.
if it's a story about rebel women, it's about Jessica loving Leto enough to defy them and bear paul, then surrender her son bravely to be destroyed or to claim his kingdom...
all the same lessons are there to be shown, how they chose to do it is telling
Uhh my guy, it makes sense because her mother and grandfather were both from the imperium. Her grandfather literally trick the fremen into his ecological experiment and was the first to use religion to their advantage. So it makes sense that she’s more cautious and not to mention she speaks to Paul on a more intimate level than anyone so she knows when he’s behaving differently than what’s desired and in her people’s best interest. Not to mention if you read the books, you know the eventual fate of the fremen culture. She not wrong and she’s a direct vocal critic of Frank Herbert himself. The ultimate contrast that reveals the main themes of the story.
@@The_preserver_x16 yeah and what is her father like, he dies for Paul too, because he believes. She like paul, starts out terrified by the prophecy, afraid of the belief welling up around them...
*but it doesn't matter to her because she loves him* she stands guard at his door killing men with a knife to protect him.
then it becomes apparent that Paul muah'dib is the one. he does survive the water, he is the kwizatch haderach... the missionaria protectiva seed the prophecy as a farce indeed. ever consider that god is at work behind the story. everyone thinks it's nonsense including the modern audience except the fremen...but they are correct in the end are they not?
it is true. In the end paul does indeed become the messiah, he does lead the fremen to battle, he does make a way for the tyrant and his peace, which does lead Arrakis to become a verdant planet....
Cool
Wowz
like it
I liked this movie just as much as the first one personally. Both are great films that highlight different parts. I do feel a little weird about how heavy the Islamic motifs are used in part 2 to service a white man as a leader, and I can't really pinpoint why I feel weird about it, maybe it's because I am worried about how people saw Islam in the 2000s during the war on terror and how they might see that again. Because I doubt the media literacy of many people. Overall pretty great movie and I recommend it 👌
Agreed
The film is good but nothing close to a masterpiece or epic.
Should have cast a way hotter chick for chani
Woke nonsens
What is woke about it?
Dune 2 is overrated and overhyped as hell. The pacing of this movie before Paul went north is all over the place. And somehow Chani is annoying and hated even more than the protagonists of this mess of a movie
Ok 👌🏽 😢 you’ve changed everyone’s mind 😂
One of the worst movies to be made this year
Yeah, after masterpieces like Madame Web and Argyle it was a bitter disappointment
@@captainhaddock6435 It's webbing time!!