Adding my voice to those who said that you shouldn't start Malazan with book 5. Just start with book 1 as the author intended. If you find it confusing my advice is to just roll with it, it's more than worth it!
Obviously do what you like, but I’d strongly recommend starting with Gardens of The Moon (for the first read through). Black Company is the series that got me into fantasy. It also influenced Steven Erikson. My suggestion? Read Black Company first. I will say: the first trilogy is the best, but I also loved the other books. However! It does slow down a bit, and there’s a shift in tone. He’s one thing to know going into Black Company: Glen Cook is essentially writing Vietnam war fiction in a fantasy world. Also! You get some of the best unreliable narrators in fantasy, imo. Also, if you want to jump into the grimdark deep end? Well, R. Scott Bakker’s Prince of Nothing trilogy. Warning: there’s a lot of SA, so it’s obviously not for everyone.
Just finished the "2nd" Black Company trilogy. I didn't even realize it was considered Grimdark. I've been scared to jump into the Grimdark genre, but I guess I've been enjoying it all along :D
Why gardens of the moon? Nobody says is a great book. Maybe would be better to start by book 2 or 5. Nothing is spoiled,, 5 is kinda a prequel with no spoilers described as essier, 2 is in a different continent has a more compelling plot and a strong ending.
@ I mean, personally, I liked Gardens a lot, but I know I’m in the minority. I suppose the main reason I’d say start with Gardens is this is the way Erikson wrote it, and how he intended it to be read. Book 2 has characters from book 1. So you’d be diving into the middle of their character arcs. I don’t want to give away potential spoilers, but I imagine it would be even more confusing to start with book 2.
Starting with book 2 or 5 is downright moronic. Gardens of the Moon is a masterpiece and it should be read first. Otherwise just don't even bother reading the series.
I was never really sure if The Faithful and the Fallen was grimdark or not, definitely gritty. I saw it as heroic fantasy like David Gemmell's books and John Gwynne is a big Gemmell fan. It's a classic good vs evil fantasy but told in a modern way. Abercrombie is my absolute favourite. I believe Best Served Cold is getting an adaptation. Richard Swan's Empire of the Wolf was fantastic. There were elements of horror in there too. He's following up with Grave Empire next year, same world different era. It sounds like it's going into flintlock fantasy territory. Blood Over Brighthaven was a surprise hit for me. One of my top three reads this year. Easy 5 out of 5 stars. Any fans of The Faithful and the Fallen should try the Bloodsworn Saga. A Norse inspired world with giant animalistic gods. Gwynne fans should also give Anthony Ryan a go, especially Covenant of Steel and his new book A Tide of Black Steel. Peter McLean's War for the Rose Throne series is a must read for grimdark fans. Peaky Blinders with swords. Deals with PTSD issues quite a bit. The Raven's Mark trilogy by Ed McDonald is another good one. I'd call it industrial fantasy because the setting is during an industrial era though lights and machines are powered by a light-based magic called phos. I recommend the The Penguin TV show even to non comic book fans. Very grimdark. Inspired by The Sopranos Breaking Bad and Goodfellas. Phenomenal
This is a great list! I haven’t yet read John Gwynne but i definitely plan to do so. I am currently reading Empire of the Vampire and I have to say it is very difficult to put down; amazing stuff! Please don’t start malazan from book 5, there is little chance you will be able to get into it and it will be a waste of your time. Either take a deep breath and start (and persevere) from Gardens of the Moon or don’t read it at all. I love the Malazan series but it is a huge investment and not for everyone.
Girl, you need to stick with the First Law books, i felt similar about the lack of plot in the Blade Itself but stuck with it because of the great characters and i was not disappointed. Just about to start on the stand alones that follow the Trilogy and cant wait!
@ansh2771 If you ask me that ending perfectly fits the incredible content of the rest of the story and it is probably the bravest not powerful ending I have read In any case why miss a potentially great story with such powerful prose because someone said you might not agree with its last pages?🙂 After all what makes Bakker feel very apart from most authors is how uncompromising is his vision. He never writes to fulfill standard tropes and expectations PS. The last book is probably my favourite book in general
I liked the The First Law trilogy but haven't read the stand-alones. I'd still like to see you do part 2 of of the Stormlight theories. I still think Dalinar's vision of the future where Kholinar is destroyed is part of it.
Fantastic video! I actually love grimdark - yeah, i'll need to talk to a therapist about that lol - and this list helped me to add more stuff to the TBR! I think that during the winter I'll read First Law, still a bit scared about Malazan
Black Company is good! Not sure if you'll like it, pretty sure you won't love it, but it was interesting to read something that inspired so much of modern fantasy and understand which parts influenced which later authors, similar to Tolkien. I personally tend to classify as grimdark those books whose narrative punishes rather than reward good acts (for example if you spare an enemy, two books later he'll stab you in the back instead of sparing you in return when the roles are reversed, that kind of thing), irrespective of the bleakness of the world, and my absolute favorite for that is KJ Parker!
I find such concept stupid. If humans wouldnt had kindness and reciprocity, they wouldnt be social, so neither would had evolved their intelligence. Of course such things happen in real life, but arent the dominant tendence.
Why oh why would you start Malazan on book? That's legit insane. Start on book 1, it's still a damn great book compared to most other fantasy out there.
I'm still not entirely clear what the difference between dark fantasy and grimdark fantasy is. If there is one. 😅 The Black Company is a series i want to get to in the near future though. I also want to start with a danish dark fantasy «Den som hvisker» by C.A. Wolters (no english translation of it unfortunately since it's a fairly new release)
The Broken Empire trilogy by Mark Lawrence is great. A really interesting world with a twist and great writing. Jorg is a complex and compelling character.
Have started reading Malice, character development feels pretty in depth so far...(given each chapter is named after a character - kinda sets the tone) Enjoying it and hoping the series is good. I hope it doesn't get too dark.
Great list of books, and most of them are on my tbr as well. I haven't been a fan of Grimdark fantasy traditionally, because I like my heroes to be heroes fighting the darkness instead of just trying to survive it (if you think about it, Middle-Earth is a pretty grim place during LotR, but that doesn't extend to the characters). I've come around in the meantime, mostly thanks to Mark Lawrence and Anthony Ryan, so I'll recommend these two as actual masters of the genre. And if you think Rin is terrible (which I actually don't agree with, I loved her character), wait until you meet Jorg Ancrath from Mark Lawrence's Broken Empire trilogy. Probably the worst sick bastard of all time an author succeeded in making me root for, but I nearly DNF'd the series before I got here. Well, and I certainly won't stop to recommend Anthony Ryan anytime soon, because he's just a masterful storyteller and I love basically all his characters. I've yet to read anything by Abercrombie and Gwynne, but if those two should turn out to be better than Ryan, then I'm in for a real treat and might have the time of my life reading them.
I wouldn't label the Faithful and the Fallen as Grimdark. Yes there is a lot of violence. Yes there are multiple PoV's of bad characters. But here's the catch. It is pretty clearly divided who are the good characters and who are the bad characters. It is a very much heaven vs hell or light vs dark story. Doesn't stop it from questioning either sides motivations for their actions but I don't think you can call a lot characters morally grey. But nevertheless it's one of my favorite series and I highly recommend it as it pays off greatly.
If you really want a heavy dose of grimdark you really need to read R Scott Bakker. Also, to echo off what several other people mentioned- please don’t start Malazan by reading book 5 first. Being confused during Gardens of the Moon is just basically your initiation into the cult of Malazan.
I was surprised but also excited you put the Poppy War 1st. I loved reading the series, but will never ever ever ever ever (Did I make my point clear?) read it again, because of THE character. It sounds like you had a similar reaction..... But it should be 2nd because we both know you really meant to put 1st Law 1st :)
The OG, Michael Moorcock: Elric saga. Without Elric, I doubt there would have been any of these. The Corum series is great too, but Elric is darker. One could argue they're not grimdark because magic/gods play a significant role.
1:24 I really think he finished the series... I think he will have his estate release the book after his passing. That way NO ONE can judge or be a critic to his last book. I really do think it is complete already.
The Black Company is listed as an influence by a LOT of fantasy authors. I read the first ones BEFORE I read a lot of the later, more popular works, so I have a soft spot for the characters. I didn't stay with the books forever, they kind of fall off a cliff. But in terms of the way he writes fantasy, the names he uses, (both character and place names) you can see direct echoes in Abercrombie, Erikson and a bunch of others. I say give it a go, at least for the first books.
Not going to lie, I get what you're saying but it's very hard to think of Gentlemen Bastards as grimdark. That series is just too swashbuckling and entertaining.
I've only read the first 2, but I feel like Scott Lynch shifts into Grimdark territory specifically for his endings. Both Lies of Locke Lamora and Red Seas Under Red Skies punish the characters brutally and have heart-wrenching loss at the very end.
Recommending a lot of series u didn't finish. I wonder if it's cause u didn't like them. So is this YOUR top list, or just A list? I couldn't do poppy war. But I don't much care for acedemia so, that on top of the girl was just not my thing. I get it tho, it was interesting.
Yes, i hate the protagonist of poppywar too, even if can understand her trouble still I don't like her. I didn't like the end either. This is why I choose to leave the series. But likewise it is really, i mean really , well written. I think i have a problem with the subject of the story. Idk. But i would like to read about The empire of vampire for sure. So thanks for the suggestion.
I live on existential minimum and yet I still manage to buy books every month, even the odd cool edition. It's all about priorities... and time collecting. 😊
I would highly recommend David Gemmell who I would consider to be proto grimdark or GD adjacent. He has a large central series of mostly standalone books with his Drenai world, with some recurring characters and he also has numerous other shorter series. A great starting place would be Legend or his Jon Shannow trilogy Wolf in Shadow, The Last Guardian & Bloodstone. He writes generally short books that are to the point, with strong characters that carry the stories.
It would be a huge mistake to start on Book 5 of Malazan. Just saying.
Adding my voice to those who said that you shouldn't start Malazan with book 5. Just start with book 1 as the author intended. If you find it confusing my advice is to just roll with it, it's more than worth it!
Obviously do what you like, but I’d strongly recommend starting with Gardens of The Moon (for the first read through). Black Company is the series that got me into fantasy. It also influenced Steven Erikson. My suggestion? Read Black Company first. I will say: the first trilogy is the best, but I also loved the other books. However! It does slow down a bit, and there’s a shift in tone. He’s one thing to know going into Black Company: Glen Cook is essentially writing Vietnam war fiction in a fantasy world. Also! You get some of the best unreliable narrators in fantasy, imo. Also, if you want to jump into the grimdark deep end? Well, R. Scott Bakker’s Prince of Nothing trilogy. Warning: there’s a lot of SA, so it’s obviously not for everyone.
Just finished the "2nd" Black Company trilogy. I didn't even realize it was considered Grimdark. I've been scared to jump into the Grimdark genre, but I guess I've been enjoying it all along :D
@ people claimed it was really dark, but I personally didn’t find if THAT dark. I loved it.
Why gardens of the moon?
Nobody says is a great book.
Maybe would be better to start by book 2 or 5.
Nothing is spoiled,, 5 is kinda a prequel with no spoilers described as essier, 2 is in a different continent has a more compelling plot and a strong ending.
@ I mean, personally, I liked Gardens a lot, but I know I’m in the minority. I suppose the main reason I’d say start with Gardens is this is the way Erikson wrote it, and how he intended it to be read. Book 2 has characters from book 1. So you’d be diving into the middle of their character arcs. I don’t want to give away potential spoilers, but I imagine it would be even more confusing to start with book 2.
Starting with book 2 or 5 is downright moronic. Gardens of the Moon is a masterpiece and it should be read first. Otherwise just don't even bother reading the series.
I loooved empire of the vampire! The physical book is necessary for the artwork ✨️
Some excellent books there, but where is Mark Lawrence? It feels very wrong to have a top 10 grimdark without him!
I think thats another genre, thats needs to be named yet. Like 'insanely bastard evil DARK' or something like that.
@@Beauty-v8o2v 😂 probably.
I was never really sure if The Faithful and the Fallen was grimdark or not, definitely gritty. I saw it as heroic fantasy like David Gemmell's books and John Gwynne is a big Gemmell fan. It's a classic good vs evil fantasy but told in a modern way.
Abercrombie is my absolute favourite. I believe Best Served Cold is getting an adaptation.
Richard Swan's Empire of the Wolf was fantastic. There were elements of horror in there too. He's following up with Grave Empire next year, same world different era. It sounds like it's going into flintlock fantasy territory.
Blood Over Brighthaven was a surprise hit for me. One of my top three reads this year. Easy 5 out of 5 stars.
Any fans of The Faithful and the Fallen should try the Bloodsworn Saga. A Norse inspired world with giant animalistic gods.
Gwynne fans should also give Anthony Ryan a go, especially Covenant of Steel and his new book A Tide of Black Steel.
Peter McLean's War for the Rose Throne series is a must read for grimdark fans. Peaky Blinders with swords. Deals with PTSD issues quite a bit.
The Raven's Mark trilogy by Ed McDonald is another good one. I'd call it industrial fantasy because the setting is during an industrial era though lights and machines are powered by a light-based magic called phos.
I recommend the The Penguin TV show even to non comic book fans. Very grimdark. Inspired by The Sopranos Breaking Bad and Goodfellas. Phenomenal
This is a great list! I haven’t yet read John Gwynne but i definitely plan to do so. I am currently reading Empire of the Vampire and I have to say it is very difficult to put down; amazing stuff! Please don’t start malazan from book 5, there is little chance you will be able to get into it and it will be a waste of your time. Either take a deep breath and start (and persevere) from Gardens of the Moon or don’t read it at all. I love the Malazan series but it is a huge investment and not for everyone.
Girl, you need to stick with the First Law books, i felt similar about the lack of plot in the Blade Itself but stuck with it because of the great characters and i was not disappointed. Just about to start on the stand alones that follow the Trilogy and cant wait!
Hey, lady! Another great vid. Can you update the chapters to include the name of each book and the cover? Currently, all chapters show Malice only.
R. Scott Bakker, The Second Apocalypse series.
The endgame of grimdark epic fantasy. Lists that do not have it are meaningless
Truth shines!
@@Red21Viper i was going to start it but heard the last book/ending was very bad.
@ansh2771 If you ask me that ending perfectly fits the incredible content of the rest of the story and it is probably the bravest not powerful ending I have read
In any case why miss a potentially great story with such powerful prose because someone said you might not agree with its last pages?🙂
After all what makes Bakker feel very apart from most authors is how uncompromising is his vision. He never writes to fulfill standard tropes and expectations
PS. The last book is probably my favourite book in general
@@Red21Viper damnn I see. Which other books u recommend? Top 5 any fantasy/sci fi?
I liked the The First Law trilogy but haven't read the stand-alones.
I'd still like to see you do part 2 of of the Stormlight theories. I still think Dalinar's vision of the future where Kholinar is destroyed is part of it.
First Law gets even better after the first trilogy
@@joelindley5113 Ok Thanks
I really struggled with The Gentleman Bastards - I found the writing self-indulgent, and the deaths failed to move me. I did enjoy the world though.
I liked the first one but got bored with the second and never finished it
Fantastic video! I actually love grimdark - yeah, i'll need to talk to a therapist about that lol - and this list helped me to add more stuff to the TBR! I think that during the winter I'll read First Law, still a bit scared about Malazan
Black Company is good! Not sure if you'll like it, pretty sure you won't love it, but it was interesting to read something that inspired so much of modern fantasy and understand which parts influenced which later authors, similar to Tolkien.
I personally tend to classify as grimdark those books whose narrative punishes rather than reward good acts (for example if you spare an enemy, two books later he'll stab you in the back instead of sparing you in return when the roles are reversed, that kind of thing), irrespective of the bleakness of the world, and my absolute favorite for that is KJ Parker!
I find such concept stupid.
If humans wouldnt had kindness and reciprocity, they wouldnt be social, so neither would had evolved their intelligence.
Of course such things happen in real life, but arent the dominant tendence.
Another one is The Broken Empire trilogy, by Mark Lawrence. He is a master when it comes to grimdark.
Thai deserves some extra tuna for the researched conducted. 10/10
Why oh why would you start Malazan on book? That's legit insane. Start on book 1, it's still a damn great book compared to most other fantasy out there.
I am in the last 30 pages of Malice -Faithful and the Fallen, and I am in love
I would recommend The Five Warrior Angels trilogy by Brian Lee Durfee!
I am half way through book 2 and loving it. What happened to Jon...was pretty grim and dark.
I'm still not entirely clear what the difference between dark fantasy and grimdark fantasy is. If there is one. 😅
The Black Company is a series i want to get to in the near future though.
I also want to start with a danish dark fantasy «Den som hvisker» by C.A. Wolters (no english translation of it unfortunately since it's a fairly new release)
The Broken Empire trilogy by Mark Lawrence is great. A really interesting world with a twist and great writing. Jorg is a complex and compelling character.
Have started reading Malice, character development feels pretty in depth so far...(given each chapter is named after a character - kinda sets the tone)
Enjoying it and hoping the series is good. I hope it doesn't get too dark.
It's most certainly good. Each book is better than the last. It does get dark.
Great list of books, and most of them are on my tbr as well. I haven't been a fan of Grimdark fantasy traditionally, because I like my heroes to be heroes fighting the darkness instead of just trying to survive it (if you think about it, Middle-Earth is a pretty grim place during LotR, but that doesn't extend to the characters). I've come around in the meantime, mostly thanks to Mark Lawrence and Anthony Ryan, so I'll recommend these two as actual masters of the genre. And if you think Rin is terrible (which I actually don't agree with, I loved her character), wait until you meet Jorg Ancrath from Mark Lawrence's Broken Empire trilogy. Probably the worst sick bastard of all time an author succeeded in making me root for, but I nearly DNF'd the series before I got here.
Well, and I certainly won't stop to recommend Anthony Ryan anytime soon, because he's just a masterful storyteller and I love basically all his characters. I've yet to read anything by Abercrombie and Gwynne, but if those two should turn out to be better than Ryan, then I'm in for a real treat and might have the time of my life reading them.
I wouldn't label the Faithful and the Fallen as Grimdark. Yes there is a lot of violence. Yes there are multiple PoV's of bad characters. But here's the catch. It is pretty clearly divided who are the good characters and who are the bad characters. It is a very much heaven vs hell or light vs dark story. Doesn't stop it from questioning either sides motivations for their actions but I don't think you can call a lot characters morally grey. But nevertheless it's one of my favorite series and I highly recommend it as it pays off greatly.
Dreams of Crimson Plague by Susan Samadi was my most recent ARC read, and for a debut novel, it's an excellent addition to any TBR.
The Poppy War. Can't get enough of it. I guess if you're female you'll hate Rin. I'm male. Rin is a favorite fictional character. Thank you.
If you really want a heavy dose of grimdark you really need to read R Scott Bakker. Also, to echo off what several other people mentioned- please don’t start Malazan by reading book 5 first. Being confused during Gardens of the Moon is just basically your initiation into the cult of Malazan.
That is a wonderful cat you have there.
I was surprised but also excited you put the Poppy War 1st. I loved reading the series, but will never ever ever ever ever (Did I make my point clear?) read it again, because of THE character. It sounds like you had a similar reaction..... But it should be 2nd because we both know you really meant to put 1st Law 1st :)
if she had stuck with it past book one, she would have given it the top spot, i am sure!
The OG, Michael Moorcock: Elric saga. Without Elric, I doubt there would have been any of these. The Corum series is great too, but Elric is darker. One could argue they're not grimdark because magic/gods play a significant role.
1:24 I really think he finished the series... I think he will have his estate release the book after his passing. That way NO ONE can judge or be a critic to his last book. I really do think it is complete already.
The Black Company is listed as an influence by a LOT of fantasy authors. I read the first ones BEFORE I read a lot of the later, more popular works, so I have a soft spot for the characters. I didn't stay with the books forever, they kind of fall off a cliff. But in terms of the way he writes fantasy, the names he uses, (both character and place names) you can see direct echoes in Abercrombie, Erikson and a bunch of others. I say give it a go, at least for the first books.
Another great grimdark series is the Broken Empire trilogy by Mark Lawrence, should reallly look it up
I agree with the rating but hating Rin?? That’s criminal 😭
Great video
it would be really bad to start malazan at book 5 you miss so much
I didn't enjoy Blood over Bright Haven that much. Surprised it's your number three.
Malazan: Book of the Fallen should be #1.
u should try the broken empire by mark lawrence, best of grimdark imo
Not going to lie, I get what you're saying but it's very hard to think of Gentlemen Bastards as grimdark. That series is just too swashbuckling and entertaining.
I've only read the first 2, but I feel like Scott Lynch shifts into Grimdark territory specifically for his endings. Both Lies of Locke Lamora and Red Seas Under Red Skies punish the characters brutally and have heart-wrenching loss at the very end.
Even though it definitely falls in the lighter side of grimdark i would classify it as such. I mean it’s on the title: they are bastards 😅
And not a single mention of the series/ip that actually coined the term grimdark?
Empire of the damned is book 2 of empire of the vampire and its awesome too
Hmmm The "Broken Empire" series defined this genre and yet it is not it the list. Unacceptable!
Good list but malice is not Grimdark lol
Recommending a lot of series u didn't finish. I wonder if it's cause u didn't like them. So is this YOUR top list, or just A list? I couldn't do poppy war. But I don't much care for acedemia so, that on top of the girl was just not my thing. I get it tho, it was interesting.
Yes, i hate the protagonist of poppywar too, even if can understand her trouble still I don't like her. I didn't like the end either. This is why I choose to leave the series. But likewise it is really, i mean really , well written. I think i have a problem with the subject of the story. Idk. But i would like to read about The empire of vampire for sure. So thanks for the suggestion.
The faithful and the fallen is not grimdark
Are you rich? How can you afford all those books?
I live on existential minimum and yet I still manage to buy books every month, even the odd cool edition. It's all about priorities... and time collecting. 😊
I would highly recommend David Gemmell who I would consider to be proto grimdark or GD adjacent. He has a large central series of mostly standalone books with his Drenai world, with some recurring characters and he also has numerous other shorter series. A great starting place would be Legend or his Jon Shannow trilogy Wolf in Shadow, The Last Guardian & Bloodstone. He writes generally short books that are to the point, with strong characters that carry the stories.
The faithful and the fallen is not grimdark
Correct.
The faithful and the fallen is not grimdark