The thing that always threw me about this story is that the ones humans worship and thought of as basically good guys are basically bullies. They be as annoying as possible and pester Apsu until he snaps then kill him in a long drawn out taunting way, and when Tiamat and Kingu seek justice for it they are killed in horrific ways, it almost seems like Tiamat is the more logical one objecting to killing their kids and then seeking justice making her the good guy in my eyes.
Yes, exactly, it seems very unfair. The gods were too scared to talk to the serpents, and so made the assumption they should be slain. This says a lot about the gods.
@@Crecganfordwe make our gods in our own image, imo. that "We will make them in Our image" is something like a self-referential projection onto "the gods/God"...imo
Hey Mr. White, it’s me again. So, something wasn’t quite sitting right with the idea that the Proto Indo European influences on Mesopotamian myth only comes from Iran. It seems too late of an influence to be so pervasive, and as it turns out, there is evidence that a Proto Indo-European speaking people preceded the Sumerians in the Fertile Crescent. The presence of a few polysyllabic words in the Sumerian and Akkadian languages have long presented a mystery, it seems, and these words seem to be on loan from PIE. They’re mostly words that have to do with irrigation and farming in the area, and there’s no horses, so this would have been some sort of non-horse migration over the Caucus mountains and down through Armenia, before the primary PIE outward expansion. This makes more sense to me, and notice at the very end of the article I’m linking to that the linguistic evidence points to this culture - referred to as Euphratic - had some sort of believe about calling on serpents or the wind... so perhaps evidence of the chaos struggle myth. I’m digging deeper but the point is, yes, obviously the Mesopotamian creation myths are PIE influenced, and this research provides a more satisfactory explanation for how this happened far enough back in history for it to have become so pervasive in Fertile Crescent culture. Additionally, trade routes show contact between Harrapan, Fertile Crescent, and Egyptian culture before the Aryan migration, so that’s another avenue for idea dispersal. Finally, what about the presence of a “separating the waters from the waters to make the first land” myth in ancient Egypt as well? It’s very similar to the Babylonian and Biblical ideas. Was that a later addition to Egyptian mythology? Cheers
One other thought: it kind of makes sense that migration over those mountains would be without horse, as that’s a pretty imposing physical barrier. It also explains why this is usually missed among the other PIE expansions, because it did not bring the horse. The word for ox and the words to yolk an ox in Sumerian are from this hypothetical language, it would seem, so it would make sense if they brought a version of the primeval cow and the twin slaying myth, as well as the dragon slayer (which is cattle theft). If you think about, this earlier PIE influence would make the later influence from Iran (which we also know did happen) easier. The Iranian PIE based mythology would find fertile ground, have some amount of common ancestry and common thematic ideas behind the Mesopotamian mythology already in existence. Much like how Scandinavia was able to comprehend Christian salvation very easily, since it is so similar to Odin mythology. Cheers
@@DavidLightbringer So in short, yes to some of your thoughts as I'm not saying PIE influenced 100% of the myth as there will be Egyptian influence, and independent cultural growth. And I'm also not saying all ideas started with PIE as some were around before this. But the more we ask the questions and compare the more answers we may get :)
@@Crecganford absolutely, and the bit about the creation by spoken word coming from Ptah is particularly insightful. Egypt also has the chaos dragon idea in the form of Apep and Set, as well as the waters from the waters creation story. Bottom line people all over this region were cross crossing for the last 20,000 years. But I thought you’d find this research about an earlier PIE presence in Mesopotamia particularly interesting in light of you having drawn the link between the Babylonia myths and PIE.
@@DavidLightbringer so good of you to mention APEP I found this story fascinating interesting that it was particularly revered during the hyskos dynasty and King Aphopis. There is most certainly a link between the duality of order and chaos. I do believe that Nigshidza *sorry for name butcher* is actually Thoth. Both carrying the entwined serpent and that the stories are like like with cultural appropriation
This one came at the right time. I teach my children history in homeschooling and with my young daughter we had finished prehistory last month and started with history in Mesopotamia. When I read the Enûma Eliš to her, she noticed some relationship between Tiamat/Ymir/Jörmungandr and Marduk/Odin/Thor (we are Heathens so the Norse myth of creation she already knows well) and she asked me what the Mesopotamian names were for Týr, Wotan, Donar and Freya :). She was very interested and I confess that I must read more about comparative mythology. Soon we will see Egypt and I am sure the same questions will come up. I really like your work and now I have my oldest son watching and sharing your videos too. Thank you.
Thank you, there is the story behind Genesis next week, and they'll be more comparative mythology in the future. So please ask any questions or if you have any requests and I'll see if I can help.
@@Crecganford Thanks again. I am very interested in the history of Genesis and its similarity with previous myths so I am looking forward to your next video.
[42:00] throwing a mountain atop the dragon Tiamat resembles the Chinese dragoon myth (of the Jade Emperor throwing mountains atop the 4 dragons). Humans created from the blood of gods to serve them resembles myths from Meso-America, which also include twins
Thank you from the heart. I just discovered your channel a few days ago and it's so informative, I love it. And then your way of telling these myths is perfect, you transport us on the spot. I look forward to listening to all of your past and future videos.
I've read a lot of translations of Enuma Elis, and this one was great. Amazing work. Love your channel, still have a bunch to get through. Keep up the amazing work, it's highly appreciated. And thank you so much for not skipping the 50 names. (And for the subtitles, I sometimes have trouble with your accent, so it's super appreciated!)
Thank you 😊. Listening to you this evening has brought back many good memories from the first time I heard these stories. I could almost feel the camp fire and smell that forest that is no more.
It's interesting to note that "Ea" can also be spelled "Ia," which can be pronounced "Yah," the ancient name for "God," which carries over into the Bible. It's a fascinating connection from the ancient to the very ancient. To give credit where it's due, this is not my own original observation, but from the channel "JayDreamerZ."
Marduk has 4 horses 🐎, then Yahweh has 4 horses in revelations 🐎 📚 I love seeing how each has parts of others. One day we may all figure out that they're all the ancient "telephone game version " of the same thing. ❤ great episode
Another gem from Crecganford, thanks, really interesting. Looking forward to the video about the step between PIE Creation myths to Abrahamic religions.
@jmarsh5485 Here is some Pie in the Sky for you to enjoy. You people, as in atheists, are truly the most ignorant people. To believe everything came from nothing is the truest sense of insanity. Our Heavenly Father has the most incredible sense of humor, and the joke is on all you poor hellbound Souls. I will show you, but Lord knows it's probably too difficult for you to understand. The Lord Created the earth and the heavens in Six days and rested on the Seventh. The number 7 represents Divine Completion. Do you really believe everything comes from nothing? Lol, that's funny! What you are about to read is 100% accurate. No dates have been pulled, pushed, or stretched because our Creator, Our Father, is Perfect in everything. That said, when you check the dates, you will see a little box that says inclusive non-inclusive. Some dates below are inclusive, meaning the last day is counted. Also, read carefully when checking these dates, and take the time to make sure you are using the correct starting date. When you are done, be sure to hold yourself in the same Contempt as you have held believers in and understand that the joke is on You. The 777 Anointing of President Trump 1. Donald Trump was born exactly 700 days before the founding of Israel on May 14, 1948, and on his first full day in office, he was exactly 70 years, 7 months, and 7 days old. 2. If you count the day he was born as 'day 1', he was inaugurated on his 70th year, 7th month, and 7th day of life. He was elected on Prime Minister Netanyahu's 7th year, 7th month, and 7th full day in office! (Prime Minister of Israel) Netanyahu was sworn in just before midnight on March 31, 2009, and his first full day in office was on April 1, 2009. 3. He even beat Hillary Clinton by 77 votes in the Electoral College because of 7 "faithless" electors. (Two voted against Donald Trump, while five voted against Hillary Clinton, bringing the final tally to 304-227 votes.) 4. Exactly 7 months later, from his first full day in office, January 21, 2017, a total solar eclipse occurred - the first since before the nation was formed in 1776 to be seen exclusively in the United States. All these most recent events occurred in the Hebrew year 5777. (October 2, 2016 - September 20, 2017). A small side note about 1776. Jesus' personal number in the New Testament is 888, and 2x888 = 1776. 5. July 7, 2017 (7/7/17), Donald Trump met with Vladimir Putin for the first time, face-to-face, when Vladimir Putin was exactly 777 months old to the day, in the Hebrew year 5777. On the 75th anniversary of Israel's independence, Vladimir Putin will turn 70 years, 7 months, and 7 days old on May 14, 2023. 6. July 11, 2018, in the 77th week since Donald Trump's inauguration, he was the 777th richest person in the world, according to Forbes. 7. On Donald Trump's 700th day in office (December 20, 2018), his defense secretary, Jim Mattis, resigned on the day Israel turned 70 years, 7 months, and 7 days old (December 21, 2018). He was due to depart exactly 70 days later, on February 28, 2019, on Donald Trump's 770th day in office; however, this has since been brought forward to January 1, 2019. 8. On President Trump's 777th day since the election, November 8, 2016, Israel announced that they would dissolve Parliament and hold elections 7 months early on April 9, 2019 (November 8, 2016, = day 1 - December 24, 2018, = day 777). 9. On Donald Trump's 770th day in office, Israel's Attorney General announced that Benjamin Netanyahu would be indicted on bribery and fraud charges, pending a hearing. This marks the first time a sitting Prime Minister faces criminal charges, and the announcement comes exactly 40 days before Israel's elections on April 9, 2019. 10. The Senate impeachment trial of Donald Trump began on January 21, 2020, exactly three years to the day from his first full day in office when he was 70 years, 7 months, and 7 days old. He was 73 years, 7 months, and 7 days old on his first trial day. Exactly 7 weeks after the U.S. House of Representatives voted to impeach him on December 18, 2019, Donald Trump was acquitted in the Senate on February 5, 2020. 11. Exactly 49 weeks after Donald Trump was acquitted in the Senate from his first impeachment trial on February 5, 2020, he was impeached again on January 13, 2021, for "incitement of insurrection." How about them apples, jmarsh Lol, are you laughing yet? Lol! Give your life to Jesus Christ before it's too late. We are watching the Psalms 83 war come together that will lead to Ezekiel 38 and Isaiah 17 will all take place as soon as this kicks off. America will be nuked off the map within the next 30 days or less before the new year.
Thank you, very clear and informative! "Crecgranford" is a mouthful at first sight btw, and, although beautiful, the Celtic font that flashes briefly at the beginning, required me to scroll back and again and pause, to figure out your channel name.
Before it was a cow, I wonder if it could have been a mammoth or mastodon. Ice age people used mammoth bones as tent poles and the hides as tarps to build their homes.
@@elischrock5356 Thanks, to be honest, now the University is open again for students to be taught face to face in the UK, I will have to go back in and so will have less time. So was thinking of doing maybe one or two videos a month, but longer, more in depth, as that would be easier to manage time wise.
In the article you link they draw the cow connection to the sacred bull in the epic of Gilgamesh. I would assume that you wouldn’t say the epic of Gilgamesh is an Indo European myth. Given that it was written around the time scholars think the Indo iranians were still in the steppes at the time it was written?
Hi! Love your videos, very interesting and informative. I have a question: It's well known that the Biblical book of Genesis contains a number of double-tellings of stories, most notably two creations of man and two versions of Noah's ark. All the commentaries I've read on this basically say the scribes who compiled Genesis just weren't interested in making it consistent. But here we have what appears to be a double-telling with a political purpose: to show that Marduk can do anything Ea can do, only bigger & better. Are you aware of any indications that the double tellings in Genesis serve some intentional didactic purpose? Just curious. Thanks!
As I remember it, each Babylonian city had its own patron god? In this light, the ascent of Marduk sounds a lot like one city subjugating the others in light of an external foe. This could also explain why the story might change the protagonist from Ea to Marduk, if another city became the dominant. The notion that Kingu means "unskilled laborer" also puts the creation of man (from Kingu) in an interesting light. It looks a lot like direct class warfare: The rulers subjugate the rebellious laborers into a "race" of servants which makes the rulers free. Not surprisingly, the rulers view rebellious laborers as the most evil of evil. As an aside, the Tiamat-as-a-cow could represent that the enemy was (Indo-European) cattle herders? Who might have been taken on as unskilled laborers?
I find your reasoning pretty appealing, some quite attractive hypotheses there on a certain power-politics level of analysis... I'll need to think about your last paragraph once I see more of this video, but in what you write above it, it strikes me as very good insight how the form of this story justifies raising one own city's god (at first Enki but then Marduk with the Babylonians rise to power) up above other cities' dieties, granting your city a theological claim of right to rule over them. A bit of a related kind of analysis I've done regarding polytheism in general: it really makes sense as a system whenever you have one state becoming an empire and engulfing other states and peoples.. everyone you conquer will all have their own gods and so if you subjugate them but match/add their gods with/into your pantheon then you'll have an easier time pacifying and integrating those peoples. The Romans were good at this and it must have aided their expansion and administration efforts. I think that once you have a polytheistic empire like with the Romans then there grows a game theoretic opportunity for monotheism to subvert and consolidate power in that empire, using its openess, infrastructure, shared language and institutions, politics, common grievances, etc. to spread within it and have furtile ground to appeal to its citizens, to point out the apparent contradictions and confounds that exist with what's manifested around everyone in society (while the contradictions and confounds of the monotheism is not yet as apparent since those problems would only emerge as clearly once it become the dominant system in widespread practice), to not say "my god is one god among many, and I recognize the legitimacy of those other gods" but make a strong case that "there is only one true god and you worship false gods, are deceived by self-enriching priests and prophets and all the problems with this society stems from not following the one true god". Christianity of course did something like this within the Roman empire. Once monotheism is spread to a significant extent and level of influence that it gets official state backing, it can start to consolidate power for one god, religion, priesthood, etc. takeover the temples and possessions of other gods that have much weaker support, especially if that monotheism has a growing populist movement with powerful backing and strong idealism. It helps centralize power for the state and expropriate wealth, remove polytheist enemies from their holdings and startions and place people loyal to you and your cause in their place, etc.
I just got to 14 minutes in the video and he says that a process of consolidation was already going on with Marduk as the Babylonians were many tribes cone together and their gods were being merged into a single god with the attributes of them all (and I suppose with 10 halos having a halo from each maybe?)... makes sense that would help unify a people, presuming they have a lot that makes them want to bind together and cooperate eith each other, like being in the same/very close genetic lineage/ancestory, shared language, customs, culture, mutual enemies, etc. He notes this consolidation is a potential step towards monotheism.
Marduk was depicted as Enki's son so there was a definite shift towards him as the Babylonians patron god. Previously Enlil (Enki's brother)was depicted as Tiamat's foe and before that it was Anu (Enki and Enlil's father) who fought her.
@@jtzoltanYou people, as in atheists, are truly the most ignorant people. To believe everything came from nothing is the truest sense of insanity. Our Heavenly Father has the most incredible sense of humor, and the joke is on all you poor hellbound Souls. I will show you, but Lord knows it's probably too difficult for you to understand. The Lord Created the earth and the heavens in Six days and rested on the Seventh. The number 7 represents Divine Completion. Do you really believe everything comes from nothing? Lol, that's funny! What you are about to read is 100% accurate. No dates have been pulled, pushed, or stretched because our Creator, Our Father, is Perfect in everything. That said, when you check the dates, you will see a little box that says inclusive non-inclusive. Some dates below are inclusive, meaning the last day is counted. Also, read carefully when checking these dates, and take the time to make sure you are using the correct starting date. When you are done, be sure to hold yourself in the same Contempt as you have held believers in and understand that the joke is on You. The 777 Anointing of President Trump 1. Donald Trump was born exactly 700 days before the founding of Israel on May 14, 1948, and on his first full day in office, he was exactly 70 years, 7 months, and 7 days old. 2. If you count the day he was born as 'day 1', he was inaugurated on his 70th year, 7th month, and 7th day of life. He was elected on Prime Minister Netanyahu's 7th year, 7th month, and 7th full day in office! (Prime Minister of Israel) Netanyahu was sworn in just before midnight on March 31, 2009, and his first full day in office was on April 1, 2009. 3. He even beat Hillary Clinton by 77 votes in the Electoral College because of 7 "faithless" electors. (Two voted against Donald Trump, while five voted against Hillary Clinton, bringing the final tally to 304-227 votes.) 4. Exactly 7 months later, from his first full day in office, January 21, 2017, a total solar eclipse occurred - the first since before the nation was formed in 1776 to be seen exclusively in the United States. All these most recent events occurred in the Hebrew year 5777. (October 2, 2016 - September 20, 2017). A small side note about 1776. Jesus' personal number in the New Testament is 888, and 2x888 = 1776. 5. July 7, 2017 (7/7/17), Donald Trump met with Vladimir Putin for the first time, face-to-face, when Vladimir Putin was exactly 777 months old to the day, in the Hebrew year 5777. On the 75th anniversary of Israel's independence, Vladimir Putin will turn 70 years, 7 months, and 7 days old on May 14, 2023. 6. July 11, 2018, in the 77th week since Donald Trump's inauguration, he was the 777th richest person in the world, according to Forbes. 7. On Donald Trump's 700th day in office (December 20, 2018), his defense secretary, Jim Mattis, resigned on the day Israel turned 70 years, 7 months, and 7 days old (December 21, 2018). He was due to depart exactly 70 days later, on February 28, 2019, on Donald Trump's 770th day in office; however, this has since been brought forward to January 1, 2019. 8. On President Trump's 777th day since the election, November 8, 2016, Israel announced that they would dissolve Parliament and hold elections 7 months early on April 9, 2019 (November 8, 2016, = day 1 - December 24, 2018, = day 777). 9. On Donald Trump's 770th day in office, Israel's Attorney General announced that Benjamin Netanyahu would be indicted on bribery and fraud charges, pending a hearing. This marks the first time a sitting Prime Minister faces criminal charges, and the announcement comes exactly 40 days before Israel's elections on April 9, 2019. 10. The Senate impeachment trial of Donald Trump began on January 21, 2020, exactly three years to the day from his first full day in office when he was 70 years, 7 months, and 7 days old. He was 73 years, 7 months, and 7 days old on his first trial day. Exactly 7 weeks after the U.S. House of Representatives voted to impeach him on December 18, 2019, Donald Trump was acquitted in the Senate on February 5, 2020. 11. Exactly 49 weeks after Donald Trump was acquitted in the Senate from his first impeachment trial on February 5, 2020, he was impeached again on January 13, 2021, for "incitement of insurrection." How about them apples? Lol, are you laughing yet? Lol! Give your life to Jesus Christ before it's too late. We are watching the Psalms 83 war come together, leading to Ezekiel 38 and Isaiah 17, which will all occur as soon as this happens. America will be nuked off the map within 30 days or less before the new year. The election was stolen, and the Lord let it happen to show how corrupt the godless abortion-loving left really is. God is the Kingmaker.
Hi John. I really enjoy your vids and your bringing to life the ancient stories. Listen to the beginning of this tale, I was wondering if the Apsu, Fresh water on high, could be referring to glacial ice locked up in the mountains during the ice age and the melting causing the rivers to over flow causing the mud, slit children of the fresh and salt waters, much like the nile floods rather than refering the river delta. This would place the creation myth squarely, in the land between the two rivers rather than on the coast. Thus focusing the activity on the fertile plain as the cause of all the noise. Just a thought.
There could be something in that, as the catalyst to start the event that solidified the myth. But let’s not forget the Persian Gulf is quite young, I think around 10k years old, and the formation of that may have had something to do with it as a result from rising sea levels. And so I am firmly on the fence, saying neither I am 100% happy with.
Interesting that the story includes a requirement to spread the story to other cultures. It's not quite as developed as the need for Christians to send missionaries across the entire world to save people from eternal damnation, but it's there.
You people, as in atheists, are truly the most ignorant people. To believe everything came from nothing is the truest sense of insanity. Our Heavenly Father has the most incredible sense of humor, and the joke is on all you poor hellbound Souls. I will show you, but Lord knows it's probably too difficult for you to understand. The Lord Created the earth and the heavens in Six days and rested on the Seventh. The number 7 represents Divine Completion. Do you really believe everything comes from nothing? Lol, that's funny! What you are about to read is 100% accurate. No dates have been pulled, pushed, or stretched because our Creator, Our Father, is Perfect in everything. That said, when you check the dates, you will see a little box that says inclusive non-inclusive. Some dates below are inclusive, meaning the last day is counted. Also, read carefully when checking these dates, and take the time to make sure you are using the correct starting date. When you are done, be sure to hold yourself in the same Contempt as you have held believers in and understand that the joke is on You. The 777 Anointing of President Trump 1. Donald Trump was born exactly 700 days before the founding of Israel on May 14, 1948, and on his first full day in office, he was exactly 70 years, 7 months, and 7 days old. 2. If you count the day he was born as 'day 1', he was inaugurated on his 70th year, 7th month, and 7th day of life. He was elected on Prime Minister Netanyahu's 7th year, 7th month, and 7th full day in office! (Prime Minister of Israel) Netanyahu was sworn in just before midnight on March 31, 2009, and his first full day in office was on April 1, 2009. 3. He even beat Hillary Clinton by 77 votes in the Electoral College because of 7 "faithless" electors. (Two voted against Donald Trump, while five voted against Hillary Clinton, bringing the final tally to 304-227 votes.) 4. Exactly 7 months later, from his first full day in office, January 21, 2017, a total solar eclipse occurred - the first since before the nation was formed in 1776 to be seen exclusively in the United States. All these most recent events occurred in the Hebrew year 5777. (October 2, 2016 - September 20, 2017). A small side note about 1776. Jesus' personal number in the New Testament is 888, and 2x888 = 1776. 5. July 7, 2017 (7/7/17), Donald Trump met with Vladimir Putin for the first time, face-to-face, when Vladimir Putin was exactly 777 months old to the day, in the Hebrew year 5777. On the 75th anniversary of Israel's independence, Vladimir Putin will turn 70 years, 7 months, and 7 days old on May 14, 2023. 6. July 11, 2018, in the 77th week since Donald Trump's inauguration, he was the 777th richest person in the world, according to Forbes. 7. On Donald Trump's 700th day in office (December 20, 2018), his defense secretary, Jim Mattis, resigned on the day Israel turned 70 years, 7 months, and 7 days old (December 21, 2018). He was due to depart exactly 70 days later, on February 28, 2019, on Donald Trump's 770th day in office; however, this has since been brought forward to January 1, 2019. 8. On President Trump's 777th day since the election, November 8, 2016, Israel announced that they would dissolve Parliament and hold elections 7 months early on April 9, 2019 (November 8, 2016, = day 1 - December 24, 2018, = day 777). 9. On Donald Trump's 770th day in office, Israel's Attorney General announced that Benjamin Netanyahu would be indicted on bribery and fraud charges, pending a hearing. This marks the first time a sitting Prime Minister faces criminal charges, and the announcement comes exactly 40 days before Israel's elections on April 9, 2019. 10. The Senate impeachment trial of Donald Trump began on January 21, 2020, exactly three years to the day from his first full day in office when he was 70 years, 7 months, and 7 days old. He was 73 years, 7 months, and 7 days old on his first trial day. Exactly 7 weeks after the U.S. House of Representatives voted to impeach him on December 18, 2019, Donald Trump was acquitted in the Senate on February 5, 2020. 11. Exactly 49 weeks after Donald Trump was acquitted in the Senate from his first impeachment trial on February 5, 2020, he was impeached again on January 13, 2021, for "incitement of insurrection." How about them apples? Lol, are you laughing yet? Lol! Give your life to Jesus Christ before it's too late. We are watching the Psalms 83 war come together that will lead to Ezekiel 38 and Isaiah 17 will all take place as soon as this kicks off. America will be nuked off the map within the next 30 days or less before the new year.
I love your work! But I have a question I can't find an answer to. The Babylonians spok a semitik language.. not a an indo European.. apart from when the wher under the Hettits... So, how and why did the story pas the language barrier?
Another excellent video.i am very familiar with the sumerian creation story.of the annunaki of Enki and Enlil as well as the babylonian and Assyrian versions.i would love to see a video on the Gods of the Hittites
@@Crecganford your welcome my friend.your videos are awesome.excellent knowledge of widespread polytheism ill always promote your channel its one of my favourite
Just an afterthought of another one of your videos, but do you think the Norse berserker warriors who went into battle in a frenzy were historically under the influence of certain drugs, and if so, which ones? Sorry if you already covered this in another one of your videos, I may have missed it. I'm generally VERY interested in the influence of drugs on mythology, culture, and history in general ! :P
I will do a video about aspects of this in the future, as like Gobekli Tepe, it is a subject one has to be careful about. I have already started researching this, and so this will be made sooner rather than later :) Thank you for all your comments so far.
Doing a little further digging into this I've read that Marduk was basically a rebranding of the much older Sumerian god Enlil. When Babylon rose to power there was a desire to promote their city god as a big deal. It seems the story of Marduk's battle was written to explain why the Babylonian city god Marduk was suddenly in charge instead of Enlil whom people were used to. It's not correct to portray the story as Sumerian because it's not. So if you want to look at the oldest version of the myth I would think it's definitely not the Marduk/Tiamat story.
If you read the Sumerian creation myth, 'The Eridu Genesis' It's a much more straightforward account. In the Eridu Genesis there are no battles between gods, no marduc and no Tiamat. But a thousand or so years Later when the Enuma Elish was written there appear monsters, dragons, Tiamat and all sorts of ridiculous things. These were obviously added by priests over the years. I think It's clear that the Eridu Genesis represents something much closer to the original creation story.
Dragons (and all the ridiculous things) were in the earliest versions of the myth, with the more recent versions of the myths having them taken out. I've made a couple of videos covering this phenomenon.
@@Crecganford I don't know Bro. I just read Jacobsen's translation of the Eridu Genesis and they aren't in it. We both know the Eridu Genesis is much older than the Enuma Elish. Babylon didn't yet exist when Sumer was in it's heyday. You know this.
First let me tell you that I liked this video. It was certainly very interesting. However I have some small points om which I would like to have a little more clarification. First at around 06:02 you state that the Sumerian AB.ZU comes from an Indo European root. This sounds interesting. Could you clarify how such an important word might be derived from a completely different culture? Also how is this done? Which branch of the Indo European language might have influenced this Sumerian word? When might this have taken place? What might have been the earliest attestation of the word AB in Sumerian? Next we come to the Indo European origins of the myth. The slaying of the serpent and the fashioning of heaven from part of the body does sound familiar. But I would like to see more maps and timelines. What Indo European speaking people have influenced the Sumerian people when? Could it have been Indo European speaking people from Anatolia? Or some people from the Zagros Mountains? There are certainly similarities, but I am lacking a theory on how and when and where such a thing might have taken place. Perhaps more answers will come when I view more video's. So far I like the channel. Please continue.
As you watch more of my videos things will become clearer, with the IE influence around cattle as opposed to being the ultimate root of splitting a twin or dragon to create the world. But the topic is vast and I will be shortly making more videos explaining Mesopotamian’s influence of the Indo-Europeans too. It wasn’t just a one way thing.
Iranian Neolithic Farmers from Zagros seem most likely, given the proximity to Mesopotamia. There are a lot of Sumerian and Akkadian words that have been identified as not originally belonging to either of those languages, several of which are thought to be Indo-European.
Egypt is planned, but it is a huge topic and I'm meeting up with a number of PhD from around the world to piece it together. But I do hope to start by the middle of the year.
A good question, but one that doesn't have a simple answer. I think most scholars would agree that there is some Indo-European influence, but trying to understand what amount the religion was influenced by the Indo-European religion is difficult to say due to the influence of Egypt on the region, and we are talking up to 4,000 years ago. I think this would make a great topic for a future video, and so will look into this. Thank you for the question :)
Hi, I have a question about the Order versus Chaos narrative: Are there other stories that support this narrative? I know that the chaos-order dichotomy being equated to male and female is a reacurring motive and also that the sea must have been a very chaotic entity to the ancient mesopotamians. But in these stories Apsu doesn't seem to represent order at all nor does Tiamat seem to represent chaos. If anything she seems to be more closely related to violence/ violent might. That would actually make a little more sense because then mankind insn't made of the evil part of chaos but the evil kind of violence instead. Is there maybe some other source not discussed in this video that clarifies the connection?
@@Crecganford Thank You! Just finished watching it. Follow-up question: Wouldn't that make Ea (and/or Marduk) the representation of order rather then Apsu? Considerung Apsu is the cosmological twin of Tiamat?
Hello once again. This reminded me of a video of you commenting that the God of Christianity was like a mixture of Marduk and Ptah, at least from what I remember and what it sounded like you said. Do you believe there any other influences to creation to the God of Christianity?
Hello again! Yes, I do, and one day I will make my own video on the story of God, the God of the Old Testament, and the God of the New testament. So I hope to welcome you back to watch those when they're made.
@@Crecganford That'll be a good video to see. Also, your stuff is a figurative goldmine for the Proto-Indo-European people and their Mythology; I've been just going through your videos and binging them
@@samuelesanfilippo222 Yawweh, Baal (Lord). El Elyon. Most. Also I believe proto storm gods HUBAL, ADAD had an influence on the Semitic God of the time. Elohim which can mean plural gods and El shaddai which in my opinion is one of the biggest influences in semtism SATURN
@@ownero1 yes likely but the christian god is literally yahweh, just that for some reason it is never said, i find it somehow umiliating that while being rised as a christian i learnt that he actually had a name only way later in life.
Lol this story is clearly about Marduk a guy in charge of digging canals, and he comes up with the fantastic idea of enslaving savages to do his work for him, and everyone says man that's a great idea lol
We imagine "creation" in a very western way. The idea of creation in Ancient Near Eastern cultures is different. Creation entails the idea of splitting or cutting something pre-existing and then spreading it to fill with something else to create something different. It always seems to cause a destruction and a complete conversion of what's being used for the creation process. We don't have an English word for it all. This is the idea in the Bible when God created the heavens and the earth it's by "cutting" and "seperating" the waters to make the seas and the skies. This is the same idea behind the slaying of Tiamat and what is done with her corpse. Conversion is a good way to understand it. I believe it was Arabs that understood it as like cutting or splitting rocks to extract gemstones. The rock is ruined, the gemstone is sperated out, and is complety different than the rock.... Their word for that is Cognate to the Hebrew word for create, and Akkadian is extremely close to Hebrew, even in Enuma Elish they share alot of Cognate words from one creation story to the other.
Could you put these videos in a playlist so I can watch them in order. From the Russian step origin story through the Jewish origin story. It’s interesting to see the evolution of it all.
John. Could the death of Apsu refer to the end of the Ice age and end of the fresh water melt flooding the twin rivers? and something separate, Anu, could this name be the basis of the Danaans and the Cannanites? and therefore the Danube, Dneiper etc and the Danes and Denmark?
Apsu is definitely about the rivers, and flooding could have influenced his story, and this could have happened when there was warming. I'm not sure about the etymology of the names though.
I recognize the Enuma Elish as perhaps the first fairly complete "creation myth" and then "monomyth." Marduk is the called hero here as Noah is in Genesis. The Giants that were made by the Sons of God and the daughters of men are the same thing as the raucous Gods that had to be destroyed in this older version. They're analogous terms and play out in the mind. Within the imagination. The story is each of us, but very old. The mind is where it plays out. Not in real life. I can demonstrate that but it's too big for most people to understand these days. In antiquity they lived with these memorized and spent a lifetime with these as media would be for us today. A fifteen year old kid from 4000 years ago knew these better than anyone today. I am cracking it open if anyone is interested in the common template this story is framed upon.
I touch on this in the Dragon video I’ve just released, and it does look like before these times it was the sources that influence Mesopotamia also then influenced IE culture. Have a watch and let me know what you think.
We don't, it is just a wishfull thought of Indo-Eurocentrists. It is much more probable that the Mesopotamian myth spread to a bunch of people, including some speaking languages of the Indo-European family which has already split up then.
While it may be the serpent allegory influencing my thinking, it seems like there may be a link between Tiamat and Lilith. Since I first read about Lilith as a youth I've been interested in her because she seems to have been so intentionally erased from the currently dominant sects of Christianity, or at least it seems so where I'm from in the USA. If Lilith does have origins as far back as Tiamat, and Tiamat occupies as much of a focus as an object of fear from the ancient masculine dominants, then the intentional, even structured, oppression that results from such fears could be far more ancient that I would've guessed.
E nu mma Eli isi does not mean When on high. I can recognise the Phrase E nu mma and Eli or El. I am fascinated with the word El seeing that most people are confused about the meaning. Some says it means god and others speculates. Elu means high, Elu ishi means head up. E nu mma Eli isi means He was heard to raise his head.
"The five major Indo-European subfamilies - Celtic, Germanic, Italic, Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian - all emerged as distinct lineages between 4000 and 6000 years " www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4112997/
Im skeptical. I am not aware of anything that ties Sumerians to Indo-Aryan culture. The language is not an Indo-European. And much of their culture is likewise on a different path than PIE or Indo-Persian.
It’s amazing how bizarrely random and petty creation myths are. There’s about 10 seconds of mystical yin/yang stuff and then it devolves into the equivalent of a daytime soap opera crossed with DragonballZ.
The Babylonian creation story, described in the Enuma Elish, drew from a range of neighboring cultural influences. However, it primarily emerged from older Mesopotamian traditions rather than directly from Iranian or Indo-Iranian sources. This myth incorporates elements from Sumerian and Akkadian beliefs that had evolved over centuries within Mesopotamia. Although Indo-Iranian peoples did eventually migrate to areas near Mesopotamia and brought their own beliefs, including early Zoroastrian ideas, there’s no clear evidence that the Enuma Elish or similar Mesopotamian creation myths were directly influenced by Iranian or Indo-Iranian traditions. Instead, it’s more likely that the story developed from existing Sumerian and Akkadian mythologies, which already had themes like primordial chaos, gods of creation, and cosmic battles. Over time, however, Mesopotamian and Persian beliefs may have influenced each other, particularly during the Achaemenid Empire, when Persian rulers governed Babylon. These cultures interacted significantly, but this exchange occurred long after the Enuma Elish had been established. So, while some ideas may have crossed over eventually, the Enuma Elish itself remains primarily rooted in Mesopotamian origins.
Yes, Tiamat and the Jörmungandr have similarities, although the former is a primordial being used the create the world, the later is an evolution of the dragon who represents our enemies.
@@Crecganford of course these stories can be conflated, and they don't necessarily evolve in linearly ... The way they are both lifted "by the middle" just seems like an interestingly similar detail (I refer to the myth of Thor trying to lift the cat), as well as the reference of someone "spanning" or going the 'length' of the earth ... The creature being subdued and put in "mortal danger", and the whole setup of these two characters being "arch nemeses", in something that both sounds like a prophecy and a myth. Of course the contexts are very different, though there are similarities. During Ragnarok, Thor will kill Jormungandr, and he will in return die from it's poison. Out of Ragnarok, a new 'world' is born, though. So while it is "the final battle to come", it also sounds like, at least in part, a cosmogenic myth. The killing of two by a warrior (even if the warrior is one of the dying) sounds Indo-European, too, but yes; these ARE of course different contexts. Though Jormungandr, Fenrir and Hel all three reflect at least thematically what you said about Tiamat: Lifted by the middle, bound, and mortal danger. All three are of course going to fight in the Ragnarok (Hel too? Unclear). Fenrir will die too, killed by Vidar "the widely ruling", which to me sounds like a king. Again, three is all over, sacrifice is all over. A warrior, a king, and a sacrifice. The shoe Vidar wears while killing Fenrir is made of leather, thrown away by humans; supposedly this can be interpreted as the offerings of humans playing a role, hence cementing the point of a sacrifice. I'm just writing down thoughts as I have them, but I think it could be interesting to look into. Another thing I thought of just now; the idea of a new world where crops grow freely and humans and gods live again (return from Hel) reminds me of the resurrection story of the fertility god which is found in several indo-european mythologies; Persephone in Greek mythology, Telipinu in Hittite mythology etc. Baldir returns from the underworld too after Ragnarok, if I am not much mistaken. Of course he can't be 1:1 fertility god since that role is taken, and since he'd be dead until ragnarok, though his title as "the shining one" could correlate somewhat with a solar deity (which in Northern Europe surely must have been seen as connected with fertility, much more so than the harsh sun of e.g. Anatolia). I reiterate: I'm only writing my thoughts down as they occur. Does not seem farfetched, though, that the poems of e.g. the Vøluspa should be a collection of stories, maybe local or foreign myths and folktales, made to fit into one coherent text/prophecy.
It is in the fact that we have older copies of those than the Hebrew. But as far as content, no. That was argued for over 100 years after finding Enuma Elish but is slowly being backed off of as wrong. They do seem to draw off of a common source, though... I e. Neither original as in both have been tampered with.
Do you have any evidence to back up the claim that the Enuma Elish was derived from Iranian / Indo-European roots? Seems like the establishment of Sumerian civilisation predated Proto-Indo-Iranian migrations, let alone the development of Iranian culture to the point that they saw exerted cultural influence over Mesopotamia, as happened during the Persian Empire.
We see plenty of evidence of PIE culture flowing through the Near East and into Africa (DNA and cultural e.g. the San people's Cattle Raiding Myth, and R1b DNA), and so can influence the Mesopotamian civilization. But also those cultures that affected the PIE speakers, would also have had influence on others. We are getting more and more evidence every year about migrations and dispersal of people in the early neolithic as I think it is there where a portion of our answers lie.
Moments before the 11 minute mark you say how Ea slays Apsu with Aosu's halo, but then moments later say that "when this was done, Apsu locked up Mummu in chains and then slew him"... I think you mispoke and meant to say "Ea locked Mummu up in chains..."
Also, at 22:53 when Marduc at the height of his power approaches Tiamat, Kingu and their host, you say that "but when Kingu looked at Tiamat he became confused, had trouble moving, etc..." don't you mean that when Kingu first beheld the approaching Marduc he lost his confidence and was fearful and this was noticed by his army of monsters and those gods that bound themselves to fight for him and Tiamat? There was an edit just before you said this, so maybe you accidentally cut out some part where you describe how Kingu looks at Marduc and is shook with fear and uncertainty? It might then make more sense for Kingu to next look at Tiamat in confusion and being frozen in fear (not of Tiamat but of Marduc).
@@Crecganford thanks for the reply. I was familiar with the PIE roots of the Vedic culture, but that the Enuma Elish might ultimately take root from PIE also was astounding. I'd need to see what the next closest story was, because otherwise I'd guess that it must be more accurate to say that the PIE creation myth was one major influence to the Enuma Elish among probably several others' (including Sumerian/Akkadian/Amorites/etc.) and surely some original additions of their own.
Honestly, I find the Enuma Elish to be perhaps the most boring and disappointing creation myth I've ever heard of. I've heard several versions over the years, it's kind of disappointing that the oldest myth I think we actually have written record of is ... terrible. One fascinating thing is that everything is sort of born of duality almost like Daoism, except they sort of destroy the Dao to create all things. Which in a way does line up with Lao Tzu's take on civilization. Anyway, it's just bad, makes me feel even more atheist-leaning just because there's no hidden gem in antiquity that we know of that makes sense of it all as if the answers were divinely passed to human hands. Thanks for the great video.
In modernity the bull represents creation too: abundance of profits in "bull" markets and beef burger franchises that make people fat and children happy (for a while anyway).
Yes, you see it in the centre of Hinduism, and then in Europe it was eventually replaced by the horse, although the cow remained a symbol of nourishment.
@@Crecganford The more I learn, the more it pains me how ignorant we are of our spiritual foundations. It's more important to me than my individual identity, b/c I will die soon, but religious influence continues to twist our lives in ways that make no sense to modern men. I'm certainly _not_ singling religion out as the sole purveyor of confusion, but it ranks up there with bad water.
The etymology of the bull is so symbolic for it is the Alpha and we still use it upside down as the "A" to represent the ox. List of references is endless
John, Last thing. Tiamet is now the Holy Cow, the original herd animal of the steppe. Here we can understand where these earlier gods Apsu and Tiamet come from. The Steppe and the PIE. The Iceage, causing the Steppe dwellers to migrate south in the near and middle east to settle. Bringing with them the wheel, cattle and seeds from the Steppe with which they created the fertile crescent. The iceage in the North reduced temperates in the south provide this fertile climate which now is no more.
That sounds good, but I'm not sure the timelines match. I am researching this, and will publish a paper, or maybe a book based on my findings. It is certainly a complex topic to ensure all options are covered.
The origin of the Sumerian creation myth is Indo-European? :) Indo-Europeans came to Iran way after the Sumerians. There were Elamites and other non-Indo-European native groups in Iran. Just like India
I recognize it as a mono-myth. Tiamat represents our early, inner self as we live life attaching to all we see and experience. We get wrapped up in our judgments. The early Gods become noisy. Their noise is disturbing in Andaruna. The dwelling place of the gods. The mind. Cyclical pain is represented by a repeating disturbance in the same manner we would see plagues repeating in Jewish stories. Marduk is the called hero. This represents us, facing our early self as we mature to a wiser self, and destroying what is inside that creates the noisy mind. Then rebuilding a new city. (Self) These outward facing stories are analogous representations of an inner pathway to peace (All similar to Buddhism) and they follow a general sequence. The Bible is made on this template. See all the repeating numbers? It's an old puzzle box to open. A metaphorical Ark, carried by many, looked inside of by few.
This is disgusting/revolting. I hope Eridu Genesis isn't as disgusting and revolting as Enuma Elish. Creating man from Kingu was just as disgusting and revolting.
It is really unclear how you consider that the Sumerians would have taken over an Iranian myth, although it is quite clear that you want the myth to originate from the Indo-Europeans. Iran at the time of the Sumerians was not inhabited by Iranians yet. Isn't it more obvious that the Sumerian myth spread to the world along with all the other things that came to us from Sumer?
Have your ever considered Marduk and the other gods, were literally the planets. Jupiter and Saturn were once stars...then Sol came, all of our mythologies describe the "battles" "births"etc...the skies of old were different than they are today. With petroglyphs around the world describing the same images, with creatin stories and others being similar, with Jupiter Saturn Mars Venus being universal gods, it begs the question: were the skies different back then, than today? The story of the ressurection , 3 days of darkness, then life! describes Sol becoming the primary star in our solar system, after Jupiter was "slain". Who slew Saturn....Venus is the Goddess and Medusa! as she is described as a blazing star, comet etc...Mars the warrior, how can these specks of light we see today, these planets, be revered as gods to our ancestors? Worldwide descriptions of the end of the world, when stars changed rule, and became gas giants like ther are today. IN the sake of time, I will end ther, but please consider this, as science, physics, and human progress are rest on the electric universe model. It explains all myths perfectly....more and more connections are being made every month and the evidence is overwhelming. Stars give birth to planets, and this would explain the myths....plasma, electic bolts of lighting, storms, heck theres even hard science showing salt water on earth came from the rings of Saturn for crying out loud!! Its all there. Its so fascinating and exciting to be apart of old but new knowledge, and trying to convince others, cuz I am a complete layman in the subject. All I have is the comment section! LOL
So an 8,000 year old language, is predated by a 5,000 year old culture? Interesting… What would be more accurate is to say that Neolithic Farming culture influenced to a degree the Indo-European culture.
What is the creation myth you want to hear most? England's? Persians? or someone else?
The core creation myth east of the Ural mountains - links to and differences with the cosmic hunt.
Madagascan creation myth
English please
@Skydaddy Myth-Busters Thank you and next week they'll be a video on Genesis, and its connection with the PIE. I hope you like it.
The older, the better in my opinion. Though I am especially curious to know if there are any truly ancient traces in African mythology.
The thing that always threw me about this story is that the ones humans worship and thought of as basically good guys are basically bullies. They be as annoying as possible and pester Apsu until he snaps then kill him in a long drawn out taunting way, and when Tiamat and Kingu seek justice for it they are killed in horrific ways, it almost seems like Tiamat is the more logical one objecting to killing their kids and then seeking justice making her the good guy in my eyes.
Yes, exactly, it seems very unfair. The gods were too scared to talk to the serpents, and so made the assumption they should be slain. This says a lot about the gods.
Agreed
@@CrecganfordIt also says a lot about their views on parenting, marriage, and conquest
@@Crecganfordwe make our gods in our own image, imo. that "We will make them in Our image" is something like a self-referential projection onto "the gods/God"...imo
Lol, just like Yahweh
Hey Mr. White, it’s me again. So, something wasn’t quite sitting right with the idea that the Proto Indo European influences on Mesopotamian myth only comes from Iran. It seems too late of an influence to be so pervasive, and as it turns out, there is evidence that a Proto Indo-European speaking people preceded the Sumerians in the Fertile Crescent. The presence of a few polysyllabic words in the Sumerian and Akkadian languages have long presented a mystery, it seems, and these words seem to be on loan from PIE. They’re mostly words that have to do with irrigation and farming in the area, and there’s no horses, so this would have been some sort of non-horse migration over the Caucus mountains and down through Armenia, before the primary PIE outward expansion. This makes more sense to me, and notice at the very end of the article I’m linking to that the linguistic evidence points to this culture - referred to as Euphratic - had some sort of believe about calling on serpents or the wind... so perhaps evidence of the chaos struggle myth. I’m digging deeper but the point is, yes, obviously the Mesopotamian creation myths are PIE influenced, and this research provides a more satisfactory explanation for how this happened far enough back in history for it to have become so pervasive in Fertile Crescent culture. Additionally, trade routes show contact between Harrapan, Fertile Crescent, and Egyptian culture before the Aryan migration, so that’s another avenue for idea dispersal. Finally, what about the presence of a “separating the waters from the waters to make the first land” myth in ancient Egypt as well? It’s very similar to the Babylonian and Biblical ideas. Was that a later addition to Egyptian mythology? Cheers
One other thought: it kind of makes sense that migration over those mountains would be without horse, as that’s a pretty imposing physical barrier. It also explains why this is usually missed among the other PIE expansions, because it did not bring the horse. The word for ox and the words to yolk an ox in Sumerian are from this hypothetical language, it would seem, so it would make sense if they brought a version of the primeval cow and the twin slaying myth, as well as the dragon slayer (which is cattle theft).
If you think about, this earlier PIE influence would make the later influence from Iran (which we also know did happen) easier. The Iranian PIE based mythology would find fertile ground, have some amount of common ancestry and common thematic ideas behind the Mesopotamian mythology already in existence. Much like how Scandinavia was able to comprehend Christian salvation very easily, since it is so similar to Odin mythology. Cheers
@@DavidLightbringer So in short, yes to some of your thoughts as I'm not saying PIE influenced 100% of the myth as there will be Egyptian influence, and independent cultural growth. And I'm also not saying all ideas started with PIE as some were around before this. But the more we ask the questions and compare the more answers we may get :)
@@Crecganford absolutely, and the bit about the creation by spoken word coming from Ptah is particularly insightful. Egypt also has the chaos dragon idea in the form of Apep and Set, as well as the waters from the waters creation story. Bottom line people all over this region were cross crossing for the last 20,000 years. But I thought you’d find this research about an earlier PIE presence in Mesopotamia particularly interesting in light of you having drawn the link between the Babylonia myths and PIE.
Thank you!
@@DavidLightbringer so good of you to mention APEP I found this story fascinating interesting that it was particularly revered during the hyskos dynasty and King Aphopis. There is most certainly a link between the duality of order and chaos. I do believe that Nigshidza *sorry for name butcher* is actually Thoth. Both carrying the entwined serpent and that the stories are like like with cultural appropriation
Let’s watch and listen while buddy directly channels ancient Babylonian storyteller priests. Fascinating!
This one came at the right time. I teach my children history in homeschooling and with my young daughter we had finished prehistory last month and started with history in Mesopotamia. When I read the Enûma Eliš to her, she noticed some relationship between Tiamat/Ymir/Jörmungandr and Marduk/Odin/Thor (we are Heathens so the Norse myth of creation she already knows well) and she asked me what the Mesopotamian names were for Týr, Wotan, Donar and Freya :). She was very interested and I confess that I must read more about comparative mythology. Soon we will see Egypt and I am sure the same questions will come up. I really like your work and now I have my oldest son watching and sharing your videos too. Thank you.
Thank you, there is the story behind Genesis next week, and they'll be more comparative mythology in the future. So please ask any questions or if you have any requests and I'll see if I can help.
@@Crecganford Thanks again. I am very interested in the history of Genesis and its similarity with previous myths so I am looking forward to your next video.
@AlxKrex Funny. I call myself a Heathen, too. lol
Skills! Hailsa!
[42:00] throwing a mountain atop the dragon Tiamat resembles the Chinese dragoon myth (of the Jade Emperor throwing mountains atop the 4 dragons). Humans created from the blood of gods to serve them resembles myths from Meso-America, which also include twins
I believe there's a Chinese creation myth too where Pangu the giants body becomes the earth and sky, like Tiamets does
Thank you from the heart.
I just discovered your channel a few days ago and it's so informative, I love it.
And then your way of telling these myths is perfect, you transport us on the spot.
I look forward to listening to all of your past and future videos.
Thank you for your kind words.
Your voice is a lullaby, but I'm alert enough for now to keep binging this playlist. Lol Even so, I felt myself relax deeper than usual.
I've read a lot of translations of Enuma Elis, and this one was great.
Amazing work. Love your channel, still have a bunch to get through.
Keep up the amazing work, it's highly appreciated.
And thank you so much for not skipping the 50 names. (And for the subtitles, I sometimes have trouble with your accent, so it's super appreciated!)
I do try to make sure my subtitles are as accurate as possible, and so thank you.
Thank you 😊. Listening to you this evening has brought back many good memories from the first time I heard these stories. I could almost feel the camp fire and smell that forest that is no more.
Thank you for your kind words.
Really nice videos and a calm voice, keep up the nice work
Cheers from Germany
It's interesting to note that "Ea" can also be spelled "Ia," which can be pronounced "Yah," the ancient name for "God," which carries over into the Bible. It's a fascinating connection from the ancient to the very ancient.
To give credit where it's due, this is not my own original observation, but from the channel "JayDreamerZ."
Could you do a video on Zoroastrianism and any parallels with Judaism and or Christianity ?
Marduk has 4 horses 🐎, then Yahweh has 4 horses in revelations 🐎 📚 I love seeing how each has parts of others. One day we may all figure out that they're all the ancient "telephone game version " of the same thing. ❤ great episode
Great catch. They are both framed on the common 'mono-myth' template. The outer story carries the inner teaching.
You have explained it all in a way I could understand
Another gem from Crecganford, thanks, really interesting. Looking forward to the video about the step between PIE Creation myths to Abrahamic religions.
Thank you!
@jmarsh5485 Here is some Pie in the Sky for you to enjoy.
You people, as in atheists, are truly the most ignorant people. To believe everything came from nothing is the truest sense of insanity. Our Heavenly Father has the most incredible sense of humor, and the joke is on all you poor hellbound Souls. I will show you, but Lord knows it's probably too difficult for you to understand. The Lord Created the earth and the heavens in Six days and rested on the Seventh. The number 7 represents Divine Completion. Do you really believe everything comes from nothing? Lol, that's funny!
What you are about to read is 100% accurate. No dates have been pulled, pushed, or stretched because our Creator, Our Father, is Perfect in everything. That said, when you check the dates, you will see a little box that says inclusive non-inclusive. Some dates below are inclusive, meaning the last day is counted. Also, read carefully when checking these dates, and take the time to make sure you are using the correct starting date. When you are done, be sure to hold yourself in the same Contempt as you have held believers in and understand that the joke is on You.
The 777 Anointing of President Trump
1. Donald Trump was born exactly 700 days before the founding of Israel on May 14, 1948, and on his first full day in office, he was exactly 70 years, 7 months, and 7 days old.
2. If you count the day he was born as 'day 1', he was inaugurated on his 70th year, 7th month, and 7th day of life. He was elected on Prime Minister Netanyahu's 7th year, 7th month, and 7th full day in office! (Prime Minister of Israel) Netanyahu was sworn in just before midnight on March 31, 2009, and his first full day in office was on April 1, 2009.
3. He even beat Hillary Clinton by 77 votes in the Electoral College because of 7 "faithless" electors. (Two voted against Donald Trump, while five voted against Hillary Clinton, bringing the final tally to 304-227 votes.)
4. Exactly 7 months later, from his first full day in office, January 21, 2017, a total solar eclipse occurred - the first since before the nation was formed in 1776 to be seen exclusively in the United States. All these most recent events occurred in the Hebrew year 5777. (October 2, 2016 - September 20, 2017). A small side note about 1776. Jesus' personal number in the New Testament is 888, and 2x888 = 1776.
5. July 7, 2017 (7/7/17), Donald Trump met with Vladimir Putin for the first time, face-to-face, when Vladimir Putin was exactly 777 months old to the day, in the Hebrew year 5777. On the 75th anniversary of Israel's independence, Vladimir Putin will turn 70 years, 7 months, and 7 days old on May 14, 2023.
6. July 11, 2018, in the 77th week since Donald Trump's inauguration, he was the 777th richest person in the world, according to Forbes.
7. On Donald Trump's 700th day in office (December 20, 2018), his defense secretary, Jim Mattis, resigned on the day Israel turned 70 years, 7 months, and 7 days old (December 21, 2018). He was due to depart exactly 70 days later, on February 28, 2019, on Donald Trump's 770th day in office; however, this has since been brought forward to January 1, 2019.
8. On President Trump's 777th day since the election, November 8, 2016, Israel announced that they would dissolve Parliament and hold elections 7 months early on April 9, 2019 (November 8, 2016, = day 1 - December 24, 2018, = day 777).
9. On Donald Trump's 770th day in office, Israel's Attorney General announced that Benjamin Netanyahu would be indicted on bribery and fraud charges, pending a hearing. This marks the first time a sitting Prime Minister faces criminal charges, and the announcement comes exactly 40 days before Israel's elections on April 9, 2019.
10. The Senate impeachment trial of Donald Trump began on January 21, 2020, exactly three years to the day from his first full day in office when he was 70 years, 7 months, and 7 days old. He was 73 years, 7 months, and 7 days old on his first trial day. Exactly 7 weeks after the U.S. House of Representatives voted to impeach him on December 18, 2019, Donald Trump was acquitted in the Senate on February 5, 2020.
11. Exactly 49 weeks after Donald Trump was acquitted in the Senate from his first impeachment trial on February 5, 2020, he was impeached again on January 13, 2021, for "incitement of insurrection."
How about them apples, jmarsh Lol, are you laughing yet? Lol! Give your life to Jesus Christ before it's too late. We are watching the Psalms 83 war come together that will lead to Ezekiel 38 and Isaiah 17 will all take place as soon as this kicks off. America will be nuked off the map within the next 30 days or less before the new year.
Thank you, very clear and informative!
"Crecgranford" is a mouthful at first sight btw, and, although beautiful, the Celtic font that flashes briefly at the beginning, required me to scroll back and again and pause, to figure out your channel name.
Ah, perhaps I shall change the intro, I was thinking of doing that. And thank you for the feedback, it is always appreciated :)
@Blanc Neige thank you
Before it was a cow, I wonder if it could have been a mammoth or mastodon. Ice age people used mammoth bones as tent poles and the hides as tarps to build their homes.
I hated waiting 3 days to watch this, but I wanted to be able to give it my full attention. Thanks for sharing!
Sorry, I have found my videos are getting longer... and thank you for watching it :)
@@Crecganford I like longer videos. Most of what you talk about could probably fill several hours with details. Keep doing what you're doing.
@@elischrock5356 Thanks, to be honest, now the University is open again for students to be taught face to face in the UK, I will have to go back in and so will have less time. So was thinking of doing maybe one or two videos a month, but longer, more in depth, as that would be easier to manage time wise.
@@Crecganford are you a teacher?
@@ariaxrose1 I used to be, I still work in Higher Education, but in a supporting role.
I always cut the video right before your outro. But this time heard your funky music at the end. Didn't know you like those groovy grooves
In the article you link they draw the cow connection to the sacred bull in the epic of Gilgamesh. I would assume that you wouldn’t say the epic of Gilgamesh is an Indo European myth. Given that it was written around the time scholars think the Indo iranians were still in the steppes at the time it was written?
Hi! Love your videos, very interesting and informative. I have a question: It's well known that the Biblical book of Genesis contains a number of double-tellings of stories, most notably two creations of man and two versions of Noah's ark. All the commentaries I've read on this basically say the scribes who compiled Genesis just weren't interested in making it consistent. But here we have what appears to be a double-telling with a political purpose: to show that Marduk can do anything Ea can do, only bigger & better. Are you aware of any indications that the double tellings in Genesis serve some intentional didactic purpose? Just curious. Thanks!
As I remember it, each Babylonian city had its own patron god? In this light, the ascent of Marduk sounds a lot like one city subjugating the others in light of an external foe. This could also explain why the story might change the protagonist from Ea to Marduk, if another city became the dominant.
The notion that Kingu means "unskilled laborer" also puts the creation of man (from Kingu) in an interesting light. It looks a lot like direct class warfare: The rulers subjugate the rebellious laborers into a "race" of servants which makes the rulers free. Not surprisingly, the rulers view rebellious laborers as the most evil of evil.
As an aside, the Tiamat-as-a-cow could represent that the enemy was (Indo-European) cattle herders? Who might have been taken on as unskilled laborers?
I find your reasoning pretty appealing, some quite attractive hypotheses there on a certain power-politics level of analysis... I'll need to think about your last paragraph once I see more of this video, but in what you write above it, it strikes me as very good insight how the form of this story justifies raising one own city's god (at first Enki but then Marduk with the Babylonians rise to power) up above other cities' dieties, granting your city a theological claim of right to rule over them.
A bit of a related kind of analysis I've done regarding polytheism in general: it really makes sense as a system whenever you have one state becoming an empire and engulfing other states and peoples.. everyone you conquer will all have their own gods and so if you subjugate them but match/add their gods with/into your pantheon then you'll have an easier time pacifying and integrating those peoples. The Romans were good at this and it must have aided their expansion and administration efforts.
I think that once you have a polytheistic empire like with the Romans then there grows a game theoretic opportunity for monotheism to subvert and consolidate power in that empire, using its openess, infrastructure, shared language and institutions, politics, common grievances, etc. to spread within it and have furtile ground to appeal to its citizens, to point out the apparent contradictions and confounds that exist with what's manifested around everyone in society (while the contradictions and confounds of the monotheism is not yet as apparent since those problems would only emerge as clearly once it become the dominant system in widespread practice), to not say "my god is one god among many, and I recognize the legitimacy of those other gods" but make a strong case that "there is only one true god and you worship false gods, are deceived by self-enriching priests and prophets and all the problems with this society stems from not following the one true god". Christianity of course did something like this within the Roman empire. Once monotheism is spread to a significant extent and level of influence that it gets official state backing, it can start to consolidate power for one god, religion, priesthood, etc. takeover the temples and possessions of other gods that have much weaker support, especially if that monotheism has a growing populist movement with powerful backing and strong idealism. It helps centralize power for the state and expropriate wealth, remove polytheist enemies from their holdings and startions and place people loyal to you and your cause in their place, etc.
I just got to 14 minutes in the video and he says that a process of consolidation was already going on with Marduk as the Babylonians were many tribes cone together and their gods were being merged into a single god with the attributes of them all (and I suppose with 10 halos having a halo from each maybe?)... makes sense that would help unify a people, presuming they have a lot that makes them want to bind together and cooperate eith each other, like being in the same/very close genetic lineage/ancestory, shared language, customs, culture, mutual enemies, etc. He notes this consolidation is a potential step towards monotheism.
Marduk was depicted as Enki's son so there was a definite shift towards him as the Babylonians patron god. Previously Enlil (Enki's brother)was depicted as Tiamat's foe and before that it was Anu (Enki and Enlil's father) who fought her.
@@jtzoltanYou people, as in atheists, are truly the most ignorant people. To believe everything came from nothing is the truest sense of insanity. Our Heavenly Father has the most incredible sense of humor, and the joke is on all you poor hellbound Souls. I will show you, but Lord knows it's probably too difficult for you to understand. The Lord Created the earth and the heavens in Six days and rested on the Seventh. The number 7 represents Divine Completion. Do you really believe everything comes from nothing? Lol, that's funny!
What you are about to read is 100% accurate. No dates have been pulled, pushed, or stretched because our Creator, Our Father, is Perfect in everything. That said, when you check the dates, you will see a little box that says inclusive non-inclusive. Some dates below are inclusive, meaning the last day is counted. Also, read carefully when checking these dates, and take the time to make sure you are using the correct starting date. When you are done, be sure to hold yourself in the same Contempt as you have held believers in and understand that the joke is on You.
The 777 Anointing of President Trump
1. Donald Trump was born exactly 700 days before the founding of Israel on May 14, 1948, and on his first full day in office, he was exactly 70 years, 7 months, and 7 days old.
2. If you count the day he was born as 'day 1', he was inaugurated on his 70th year, 7th month, and 7th day of life. He was elected on Prime Minister Netanyahu's 7th year, 7th month, and 7th full day in office! (Prime Minister of Israel) Netanyahu was sworn in just before midnight on March 31, 2009, and his first full day in office was on April 1, 2009.
3. He even beat Hillary Clinton by 77 votes in the Electoral College because of 7 "faithless" electors. (Two voted against Donald Trump, while five voted against Hillary Clinton, bringing the final tally to 304-227 votes.)
4. Exactly 7 months later, from his first full day in office, January 21, 2017, a total solar eclipse occurred - the first since before the nation was formed in 1776 to be seen exclusively in the United States. All these most recent events occurred in the Hebrew year 5777. (October 2, 2016 - September 20, 2017). A small side note about 1776. Jesus' personal number in the New Testament is 888, and 2x888 = 1776.
5. July 7, 2017 (7/7/17), Donald Trump met with Vladimir Putin for the first time, face-to-face, when Vladimir Putin was exactly 777 months old to the day, in the Hebrew year 5777. On the 75th anniversary of Israel's independence, Vladimir Putin will turn 70 years, 7 months, and 7 days old on May 14, 2023.
6. July 11, 2018, in the 77th week since Donald Trump's inauguration, he was the 777th richest person in the world, according to Forbes.
7. On Donald Trump's 700th day in office (December 20, 2018), his defense secretary, Jim Mattis, resigned on the day Israel turned 70 years, 7 months, and 7 days old (December 21, 2018). He was due to depart exactly 70 days later, on February 28, 2019, on Donald Trump's 770th day in office; however, this has since been brought forward to January 1, 2019.
8. On President Trump's 777th day since the election, November 8, 2016, Israel announced that they would dissolve Parliament and hold elections 7 months early on April 9, 2019 (November 8, 2016, = day 1 - December 24, 2018, = day 777).
9. On Donald Trump's 770th day in office, Israel's Attorney General announced that Benjamin Netanyahu would be indicted on bribery and fraud charges, pending a hearing. This marks the first time a sitting Prime Minister faces criminal charges, and the announcement comes exactly 40 days before Israel's elections on April 9, 2019.
10. The Senate impeachment trial of Donald Trump began on January 21, 2020, exactly three years to the day from his first full day in office when he was 70 years, 7 months, and 7 days old. He was 73 years, 7 months, and 7 days old on his first trial day. Exactly 7 weeks after the U.S. House of Representatives voted to impeach him on December 18, 2019, Donald Trump was acquitted in the Senate on February 5, 2020.
11. Exactly 49 weeks after Donald Trump was acquitted in the Senate from his first impeachment trial on February 5, 2020, he was impeached again on January 13, 2021, for "incitement of insurrection."
How about them apples? Lol, are you laughing yet? Lol! Give your life to Jesus Christ before it's too late. We are watching the Psalms 83 war come together, leading to Ezekiel 38 and Isaiah 17, which will all occur as soon as this happens. America will be nuked off the map within 30 days or less before the new year. The election was stolen, and the Lord let it happen to show how corrupt the godless abortion-loving left really is. God is the Kingmaker.
Hi John. I really enjoy your vids and your bringing to life the ancient stories.
Listen to the beginning of this tale, I was wondering if the Apsu, Fresh water on high, could be referring to glacial ice locked up in the mountains during the ice age and the melting causing the rivers to over flow causing the mud, slit children of the fresh and salt waters, much like the nile floods rather than refering the river delta.
This would place the creation myth squarely, in the land between the two rivers rather than on the coast. Thus focusing the activity on the fertile plain as the cause of all the noise. Just a thought.
There could be something in that, as the catalyst to start the event that solidified the myth. But let’s not forget the Persian Gulf is quite young, I think around 10k years old, and the formation of that may have had something to do with it as a result from rising sea levels. And so I am firmly on the fence, saying neither I am 100% happy with.
OMG, imagine having so many names! Any beaurocratic process would be a nightmare...
Hahaha! I hadn't even considered that, it would be doubly so as everything was written in clay!
Interesting that the story includes a requirement to spread the story to other cultures. It's not quite as developed as the need for Christians to send missionaries across the entire world to save people from eternal damnation, but it's there.
You people, as in atheists, are truly the most ignorant people. To believe everything came from nothing is the truest sense of insanity. Our Heavenly Father has the most incredible sense of humor, and the joke is on all you poor hellbound Souls. I will show you, but Lord knows it's probably too difficult for you to understand. The Lord Created the earth and the heavens in Six days and rested on the Seventh. The number 7 represents Divine Completion. Do you really believe everything comes from nothing? Lol, that's funny!
What you are about to read is 100% accurate. No dates have been pulled, pushed, or stretched because our Creator, Our Father, is Perfect in everything. That said, when you check the dates, you will see a little box that says inclusive non-inclusive. Some dates below are inclusive, meaning the last day is counted. Also, read carefully when checking these dates, and take the time to make sure you are using the correct starting date. When you are done, be sure to hold yourself in the same Contempt as you have held believers in and understand that the joke is on You.
The 777 Anointing of President Trump
1. Donald Trump was born exactly 700 days before the founding of Israel on May 14, 1948, and on his first full day in office, he was exactly 70 years, 7 months, and 7 days old.
2. If you count the day he was born as 'day 1', he was inaugurated on his 70th year, 7th month, and 7th day of life. He was elected on Prime Minister Netanyahu's 7th year, 7th month, and 7th full day in office! (Prime Minister of Israel) Netanyahu was sworn in just before midnight on March 31, 2009, and his first full day in office was on April 1, 2009.
3. He even beat Hillary Clinton by 77 votes in the Electoral College because of 7 "faithless" electors. (Two voted against Donald Trump, while five voted against Hillary Clinton, bringing the final tally to 304-227 votes.)
4. Exactly 7 months later, from his first full day in office, January 21, 2017, a total solar eclipse occurred - the first since before the nation was formed in 1776 to be seen exclusively in the United States. All these most recent events occurred in the Hebrew year 5777. (October 2, 2016 - September 20, 2017). A small side note about 1776. Jesus' personal number in the New Testament is 888, and 2x888 = 1776.
5. July 7, 2017 (7/7/17), Donald Trump met with Vladimir Putin for the first time, face-to-face, when Vladimir Putin was exactly 777 months old to the day, in the Hebrew year 5777. On the 75th anniversary of Israel's independence, Vladimir Putin will turn 70 years, 7 months, and 7 days old on May 14, 2023.
6. July 11, 2018, in the 77th week since Donald Trump's inauguration, he was the 777th richest person in the world, according to Forbes.
7. On Donald Trump's 700th day in office (December 20, 2018), his defense secretary, Jim Mattis, resigned on the day Israel turned 70 years, 7 months, and 7 days old (December 21, 2018). He was due to depart exactly 70 days later, on February 28, 2019, on Donald Trump's 770th day in office; however, this has since been brought forward to January 1, 2019.
8. On President Trump's 777th day since the election, November 8, 2016, Israel announced that they would dissolve Parliament and hold elections 7 months early on April 9, 2019 (November 8, 2016, = day 1 - December 24, 2018, = day 777).
9. On Donald Trump's 770th day in office, Israel's Attorney General announced that Benjamin Netanyahu would be indicted on bribery and fraud charges, pending a hearing. This marks the first time a sitting Prime Minister faces criminal charges, and the announcement comes exactly 40 days before Israel's elections on April 9, 2019.
10. The Senate impeachment trial of Donald Trump began on January 21, 2020, exactly three years to the day from his first full day in office when he was 70 years, 7 months, and 7 days old. He was 73 years, 7 months, and 7 days old on his first trial day. Exactly 7 weeks after the U.S. House of Representatives voted to impeach him on December 18, 2019, Donald Trump was acquitted in the Senate on February 5, 2020.
11. Exactly 49 weeks after Donald Trump was acquitted in the Senate from his first impeachment trial on February 5, 2020, he was impeached again on January 13, 2021, for "incitement of insurrection."
How about them apples? Lol, are you laughing yet? Lol! Give your life to Jesus Christ before it's too late. We are watching the Psalms 83 war come together that will lead to Ezekiel 38 and Isaiah 17 will all take place as soon as this kicks off. America will be nuked off the map within the next 30 days or less before the new year.
I love your work! But I have a question I can't find an answer to. The Babylonians spok a semitik language.. not a an indo European.. apart from when the wher under the Hettits... So, how and why did the story pas the language barrier?
Looking further down the comments and finding answers and more to read in your list of papers! Thank you!
Another excellent video.i am very familiar with the sumerian creation story.of the annunaki of Enki and Enlil as well as the babylonian and Assyrian versions.i would love to see a video on the Gods of the Hittites
I'm sure I could make that, it may be a few months away, but I will put that on my list. Thanks for watching so many of the videos.
@@Crecganford your welcome my friend.your videos are awesome.excellent knowledge of widespread polytheism ill always promote your channel its one of my favourite
Just an afterthought of another one of your videos, but do you think the Norse berserker warriors who went into battle in a frenzy were historically under the influence of certain drugs, and if so, which ones? Sorry if you already covered this in another one of your videos, I may have missed it. I'm generally VERY interested in the influence of drugs on mythology, culture, and history in general ! :P
I will do a video about aspects of this in the future, as like Gobekli Tepe, it is a subject one has to be careful about. I have already started researching this, and so this will be made sooner rather than later :) Thank you for all your comments so far.
Doing a little further digging into this I've read that Marduk was basically a rebranding of the much older Sumerian god Enlil. When Babylon rose to power there was a desire to promote their city god as a big deal. It seems the story of Marduk's battle was written to explain why the Babylonian city god Marduk was suddenly in charge instead of Enlil whom people were used to. It's not correct to portray the story as Sumerian because it's not. So if you want to look at the oldest version of the myth I would think it's definitely not the Marduk/Tiamat story.
Good onYahs brother. Right on.
If you read the Sumerian creation myth, 'The Eridu Genesis' It's a much more straightforward account. In the Eridu Genesis there are no battles between gods, no marduc and no Tiamat. But a thousand or so years Later when the Enuma Elish was written there appear monsters, dragons, Tiamat and all sorts of ridiculous things. These were obviously added by priests over the years.
I think It's clear that the Eridu Genesis represents something much closer to the original creation story.
Dragons (and all the ridiculous things) were in the earliest versions of the myth, with the more recent versions of the myths having them taken out. I've made a couple of videos covering this phenomenon.
@@Crecganford I don't know Bro. I just read Jacobsen's translation of the Eridu Genesis and they aren't in it. We both know the Eridu Genesis is much older than the Enuma Elish.
Babylon didn't yet exist when Sumer was in it's heyday. You know this.
This has become a favorite.
Thank you, it’s quite an epic
Thank you for your video I am Assyrian and this is my believe
How do you know you're Assyrian?
@@garlandjones7709 I spoke ASSYRIAN and I am have ASSYRIAN DNA my culture celebrate New year
@@kkKey-py7lk Nice! I was under the impression that was a dead culture and language, so did some quick Google searching after your post.
Also would love to see you look at Harrapan culture there is so little there was also magan and dilmun
It is on my To Do list
@@Crecganford I'm sure you are extremely busy and I've just discovered you're channel so got loads to catch up on in the mean time 😉
Before marduk I think enlil and ninurta had the most important part of the story, I think. Ninurta was very similar to Thor in some ways
First let me tell you that I liked this video. It was certainly very interesting.
However I have some small points om which I would like to have a little more clarification.
First at around 06:02 you state that the Sumerian AB.ZU comes from an Indo European root.
This sounds interesting. Could you clarify how such an important word might be derived from a completely different culture?
Also how is this done? Which branch of the Indo European language might have influenced this Sumerian word?
When might this have taken place? What might have been the earliest attestation of the word AB in Sumerian?
Next we come to the Indo European origins of the myth.
The slaying of the serpent and the fashioning of heaven from part of the body does sound familiar.
But I would like to see more maps and timelines. What Indo European speaking people have influenced the Sumerian people when?
Could it have been Indo European speaking people from Anatolia? Or some people from the Zagros Mountains?
There are certainly similarities, but I am lacking a theory on how and when and where such a thing might have taken place.
Perhaps more answers will come when I view more video's.
So far I like the channel. Please continue.
As you watch more of my videos things will become clearer, with the IE influence around cattle as opposed to being the ultimate root of splitting a twin or dragon to create the world. But the topic is vast and I will be shortly making more videos explaining Mesopotamian’s influence of the Indo-Europeans too. It wasn’t just a one way thing.
Iranian Neolithic Farmers from Zagros seem most likely, given the proximity to Mesopotamia. There are a lot of Sumerian and Akkadian words that have been identified as not originally belonging to either of those languages, several of which are thought to be Indo-European.
great material. When are you doing an episode on egypt. Have you got one planned?
Egypt is planned, but it is a huge topic and I'm meeting up with a number of PhD from around the world to piece it together. But I do hope to start by the middle of the year.
@@Crecganford Great news. Cant wait
It would help to have a list of video titles, enlisted by contents for study and follow-up.
A great suggestion, and I will try and publish something in the next few weeks.
Fascinating story, many thanks.
Incredible work you do, thank you
The presentation cards from Marduk must have been pretty thick. A stack of 50 little clay tablets... XD
What degree of agreement among scholars exists concerning the PIE origins of the Semitic/Semite creation myth? Is this controversial?
A good question, but one that doesn't have a simple answer. I think most scholars would agree that there is some Indo-European influence, but trying to understand what amount the religion was influenced by the Indo-European religion is difficult to say due to the influence of Egypt on the region, and we are talking up to 4,000 years ago. I think this would make a great topic for a future video, and so will look into this. Thank you for the question :)
Yes! Please make this video!
I think the Gaia channel would benefit from this dose of reality. Thanks!
There is more to come on this, and so watch this space.
Hi, I have a question about the Order versus Chaos narrative:
Are there other stories that support this narrative? I know that the chaos-order dichotomy being equated to male and female is a reacurring motive and also that the sea must have been a very chaotic entity to the ancient mesopotamians.
But in these stories Apsu doesn't seem to represent order at all nor does Tiamat seem to represent chaos.
If anything she seems to be more closely related to violence/ violent might.
That would actually make a little more sense because then mankind insn't made of the evil part of chaos but the evil kind of violence instead.
Is there maybe some other source not discussed in this video that clarifies the connection?
Have a watch of my Dragon video I released a month ago, I do talk about this a little in there.
@@Crecganford Thank You! Just finished watching it.
Follow-up question:
Wouldn't that make Ea (and/or Marduk) the representation of order rather then Apsu? Considerung Apsu is the cosmological twin of Tiamat?
Hello once again. This reminded me of a video of you commenting that the God of Christianity was like a mixture of Marduk and Ptah, at least from what I remember and what it sounded like you said.
Do you believe there any other influences to creation to the God of Christianity?
Hello again! Yes, I do, and one day I will make my own video on the story of God, the God of the Old Testament, and the God of the New testament. So I hope to welcome you back to watch those when they're made.
@@Crecganford That'll be a good video to see.
Also, your stuff is a figurative goldmine for the Proto-Indo-European people and their Mythology; I've been just going through your videos and binging them
Yahwe would be a quite big part, i mean the caanite one
@@samuelesanfilippo222 Yawweh, Baal (Lord). El Elyon. Most. Also I believe proto storm gods HUBAL, ADAD had an influence on the Semitic God of the time.
Elohim which can mean plural gods and El shaddai which in my opinion is one of the biggest influences in semtism SATURN
@@ownero1 yes likely but the christian god is literally yahweh, just that for some reason it is never said, i find it somehow umiliating that while being rised as a christian i learnt that he actually had a name only way later in life.
Lol this story is clearly about Marduk a guy in charge of digging canals, and he comes up with the fantastic idea of enslaving savages to do his work for him, and everyone says man that's a great idea lol
Tell me please! Before creation where did the gods get the bread and eine from?
I just love your work. Thank you
I meant "wine"
We imagine "creation" in a very western way. The idea of creation in Ancient Near Eastern cultures is different. Creation entails the idea of splitting or cutting something pre-existing and then spreading it to fill with something else to create something different. It always seems to cause a destruction and a complete conversion of what's being used for the creation process. We don't have an English word for it all.
This is the idea in the Bible when God created the heavens and the earth it's by "cutting" and "seperating" the waters to make the seas and the skies. This is the same idea behind the slaying of Tiamat and what is done with her corpse.
Conversion is a good way to understand it. I believe it was Arabs that understood it as like cutting or splitting rocks to extract gemstones. The rock is ruined, the gemstone is sperated out, and is complety different than the rock.... Their word for that is Cognate to the Hebrew word for create, and Akkadian is extremely close to Hebrew, even in Enuma Elish they share alot of Cognate words from one creation story to the other.
that speech about anu makes me want to polish my resume
Could you put these videos in a playlist so I can watch them in order. From the Russian step origin story through the Jewish origin story. It’s interesting to see the evolution of it all.
Yes, l'll try and do this at the weekend as it may take a little time to arrange. Thank you for the suggestion.
@@Crecganford awesome! thank you for listening and replying to your subscribers. btw what does Crecganford mean?
John. Could the death of Apsu refer to the end of the Ice age and end of the fresh water melt flooding the twin rivers? and something separate, Anu, could this name be the basis of the Danaans and the Cannanites? and therefore the Danube, Dneiper etc and the Danes and Denmark?
Apsu is definitely about the rivers, and flooding could have influenced his story, and this could have happened when there was warming. I'm not sure about the etymology of the names though.
The etymological link here definitely worth considering
Love these videos
Thank you.
I believe the 'S's with the wedge above are pronounced as a "sh," similar to Hattusa being actually pronounced "Hattusha."
We are back.
that 50 names section sounded like a proper invocation
I recognize the Enuma Elish as perhaps the first fairly complete "creation myth" and then "monomyth." Marduk is the called hero here as Noah is in Genesis. The Giants that were made by the Sons of God and the daughters of men are the same thing as the raucous Gods that had to be destroyed in this older version. They're analogous terms and play out in the mind. Within the imagination. The story is each of us, but very old. The mind is where it plays out. Not in real life. I can demonstrate that but it's too big for most people to understand these days. In antiquity they lived with these memorized and spent a lifetime with these as media would be for us today. A fifteen year old kid from 4000 years ago knew these better than anyone today. I am cracking it open if anyone is interested in the common template this story is framed upon.
How do we know that the mesopotamian version descended from the Indo-European instead of the other way around?
I touch on this in the Dragon video I’ve just released, and it does look like before these times it was the sources that influence Mesopotamia also then influenced IE culture. Have a watch and let me know what you think.
We don't, it is just a wishfull thought of Indo-Eurocentrists. It is much more probable that the Mesopotamian myth spread to a bunch of people, including some speaking languages of the Indo-European family which has already split up then.
How do you know the Vedic version evolved from the Iranian version? Are you using migration data?
Because that's the predominant academic view of the migration from PIE to Venice based on the various sources I use.
In Portuguese "mud" is called "lama" from the latin "lama". Might just be a coincidence, though.
While it may be the serpent allegory influencing my thinking, it seems like there may be a link between Tiamat and Lilith. Since I first read about Lilith as a youth I've been interested in her because she seems to have been so intentionally erased from the currently dominant sects of Christianity, or at least it seems so where I'm from in the USA. If Lilith does have origins as far back as Tiamat, and Tiamat occupies as much of a focus as an object of fear from the ancient masculine dominants, then the intentional, even structured, oppression that results from such fears could be far more ancient that I would've guessed.
Curious if you could recommend any well made movies set in ancient Babylon or Mesopotamia?
I don't really watch films, I don't even own a television... but if you want book recommendations then that I can do!
@@Crecganford ok, can you recommend a few books that describe what life was like in ancient Babylon and Mesopotamia?
E nu mma Eli isi does not mean When on high. I can recognise the Phrase E nu mma and Eli or El. I am fascinated with the word El seeing that most people are confused about the meaning. Some says it means god and others speculates. Elu means high, Elu ishi means head up.
E nu mma Eli isi means He was heard to raise his head.
The Hebrews didn't call it "Genesis": that is a Greek word that we use, following the Greek Bible.
Isn't the past tense of to slay, slew not slayed?
AMAZING
Where is the Evidence that the Enuma Elish is derived from Proto Indoeuropean?
I do reference papers in the description, but probably best start with Lincoln's paper on the IE myth of creation.
@@Crecganford Ok. I will look into. But I cant imagine that this is accepted in Mainstream.
"The five major Indo-European subfamilies - Celtic, Germanic, Italic, Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian - all emerged as distinct lineages between 4000 and 6000 years " www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4112997/
Im skeptical. I am not aware of anything that ties Sumerians to Indo-Aryan culture.
The language is not an Indo-European. And much of their culture is likewise on a different path than PIE or Indo-Persian.
MAKNIFFIKEE!!! AY VA VAMO PA BABYLOOM.
It’s amazing how bizarrely random and petty creation myths are. There’s about 10 seconds of mystical yin/yang stuff and then it devolves into the equivalent of a daytime soap opera crossed with DragonballZ.
Can I get the names and there meaning I can't seem to find it
Holy Cow! Thx 4 this!
The Babylonian creation story, described in the Enuma Elish, drew from a range of neighboring cultural influences. However, it primarily emerged from older Mesopotamian traditions rather than directly from Iranian or Indo-Iranian sources. This myth incorporates elements from Sumerian and Akkadian beliefs that had evolved over centuries within Mesopotamia.
Although Indo-Iranian peoples did eventually migrate to areas near Mesopotamia and brought their own beliefs, including early Zoroastrian ideas, there’s no clear evidence that the Enuma Elish or similar Mesopotamian creation myths were directly influenced by Iranian or Indo-Iranian traditions. Instead, it’s more likely that the story developed from existing Sumerian and Akkadian mythologies, which already had themes like primordial chaos, gods of creation, and cosmic battles.
Over time, however, Mesopotamian and Persian beliefs may have influenced each other, particularly during the Achaemenid Empire, when Persian rulers governed Babylon. These cultures interacted significantly, but this exchange occurred long after the Enuma Elish had been established. So, while some ideas may have crossed over eventually, the Enuma Elish itself remains primarily rooted in Mesopotamian origins.
I'm calling him simply Marduk, thank you very much
To me, Tiamat sounds like the jormungandr - the way he lifts the middle
While binding Tiamat sounds more like Fenrir, of course.
Yes, Tiamat and the Jörmungandr have similarities, although the former is a primordial being used the create the world, the later is an evolution of the dragon who represents our enemies.
@@Crecganford of course these stories can be conflated, and they don't necessarily evolve in linearly ... The way they are both lifted "by the middle" just seems like an interestingly similar detail (I refer to the myth of Thor trying to lift the cat), as well as the reference of someone "spanning" or going the 'length' of the earth ... The creature being subdued and put in "mortal danger", and the whole setup of these two characters being "arch nemeses", in something that both sounds like a prophecy and a myth. Of course the contexts are very different, though there are similarities. During Ragnarok, Thor will kill Jormungandr, and he will in return die from it's poison. Out of Ragnarok, a new 'world' is born, though. So while it is "the final battle to come", it also sounds like, at least in part, a cosmogenic myth. The killing of two by a warrior (even if the warrior is one of the dying) sounds Indo-European, too, but yes; these ARE of course different contexts. Though Jormungandr, Fenrir and Hel all three reflect at least thematically what you said about Tiamat: Lifted by the middle, bound, and mortal danger. All three are of course going to fight in the Ragnarok (Hel too? Unclear). Fenrir will die too, killed by Vidar "the widely ruling", which to me sounds like a king. Again, three is all over, sacrifice is all over. A warrior, a king, and a sacrifice. The shoe Vidar wears while killing Fenrir is made of leather, thrown away by humans; supposedly this can be interpreted as the offerings of humans playing a role, hence cementing the point of a sacrifice. I'm just writing down thoughts as I have them, but I think it could be interesting to look into.
Another thing I thought of just now; the idea of a new world where crops grow freely and humans and gods live again (return from Hel) reminds me of the resurrection story of the fertility god which is found in several indo-european mythologies; Persephone in Greek mythology, Telipinu in Hittite mythology etc. Baldir returns from the underworld too after Ragnarok, if I am not much mistaken. Of course he can't be 1:1 fertility god since that role is taken, and since he'd be dead until ragnarok, though his title as "the shining one" could correlate somewhat with a solar deity (which in Northern Europe surely must have been seen as connected with fertility, much more so than the harsh sun of e.g. Anatolia). I reiterate: I'm only writing my thoughts down as they occur. Does not seem farfetched, though, that the poems of e.g. the Vøluspa should be a collection of stories, maybe local or foreign myths and folktales, made to fit into one coherent text/prophecy.
It is so obvious where Christianity started.
Is the enuma elish older than scriptures ?
It is in the fact that we have older copies of those than the Hebrew. But as far as content, no. That was argued for over 100 years after finding Enuma Elish but is slowly being backed off of as wrong. They do seem to draw off of a common source, though... I e. Neither original as in both have been tampered with.
Do you have any evidence to back up the claim that the Enuma Elish was derived from Iranian / Indo-European roots? Seems like the establishment of Sumerian civilisation predated Proto-Indo-Iranian migrations, let alone the development of Iranian culture to the point that they saw exerted cultural influence over Mesopotamia, as happened during the Persian Empire.
We see plenty of evidence of PIE culture flowing through the Near East and into Africa (DNA and cultural e.g. the San people's Cattle Raiding Myth, and R1b DNA), and so can influence the Mesopotamian civilization. But also those cultures that affected the PIE speakers, would also have had influence on others. We are getting more and more evidence every year about migrations and dispersal of people in the early neolithic as I think it is there where a portion of our answers lie.
I liked this very much. So I name you ...He who can pronounce the 50 names of Marduk.
Well I have been called worse, and so thank you.
Moments before the 11 minute mark you say how Ea slays Apsu with Aosu's halo, but then moments later say that "when this was done, Apsu locked up Mummu in chains and then slew him"... I think you mispoke and meant to say "Ea locked Mummu up in chains..."
Also, at 22:53 when Marduc at the height of his power approaches Tiamat, Kingu and their host, you say that "but when Kingu looked at Tiamat he became confused, had trouble moving, etc..." don't you mean that when Kingu first beheld the approaching Marduc he lost his confidence and was fearful and this was noticed by his army of monsters and those gods that bound themselves to fight for him and Tiamat?
There was an edit just before you said this, so maybe you accidentally cut out some part where you describe how Kingu looks at Marduc and is shook with fear and uncertainty? It might then make more sense for Kingu to next look at Tiamat in confusion and being frozen in fear (not of Tiamat but of Marduc).
Yes, this is an important motif, and one we see in comparable myths such as Indra vs Vrtra in the Vedic culture.
@@Crecganford thanks for the reply. I was familiar with the PIE roots of the Vedic culture, but that the Enuma Elish might ultimately take root from PIE also was astounding.
I'd need to see what the next closest story was, because otherwise I'd guess that it must be more accurate to say that the PIE creation myth was one major influence to the Enuma Elish among probably several others' (including Sumerian/Akkadian/Amorites/etc.) and surely some original additions of their own.
Honestly, I find the Enuma Elish to be perhaps the most boring and disappointing creation myth I've ever heard of. I've heard several versions over the years, it's kind of disappointing that the oldest myth I think we actually have written record of is ... terrible.
One fascinating thing is that everything is sort of born of duality almost like Daoism, except they sort of destroy the Dao to create all things. Which in a way does line up with Lao Tzu's take on civilization.
Anyway, it's just bad, makes me feel even more atheist-leaning just because there's no hidden gem in antiquity that we know of that makes sense of it all as if the answers were divinely passed to human hands.
Thanks for the great video.
It's not the oldest. Its very agenda driven in its current form here.
In modernity the bull represents creation too: abundance of profits in "bull" markets and beef burger franchises that make people fat and children happy (for a while anyway).
Yes, you see it in the centre of Hinduism, and then in Europe it was eventually replaced by the horse, although the cow remained a symbol of nourishment.
@@Crecganford The more I learn, the more it pains me how ignorant we are of our spiritual foundations. It's more important to me than my individual identity, b/c I will die soon, but religious influence continues to twist our lives in ways that make no sense to modern men. I'm certainly _not_ singling religion out as the sole purveyor of confusion, but it ranks up there with bad water.
The etymology of the bull is so symbolic for it is the Alpha and we still use it upside down as the "A" to represent the ox. List of references is endless
John, Last thing.
Tiamet is now the Holy Cow, the original herd animal of the steppe.
Here we can understand where these earlier gods Apsu and Tiamet come from. The Steppe and the PIE. The Iceage, causing the Steppe dwellers to migrate south in the near and middle east to settle. Bringing with them the wheel, cattle and seeds from the Steppe with which they created the fertile crescent. The iceage in the North reduced temperates in the south provide this fertile climate which now is no more.
That sounds good, but I'm not sure the timelines match. I am researching this, and will publish a paper, or maybe a book based on my findings. It is certainly a complex topic to ensure all options are covered.
The origin of the Sumerian creation myth is Indo-European? :) Indo-Europeans came to Iran way after
the Sumerians. There were Elamites and other non-Indo-European native groups in Iran. Just like India
I wonder if Tiamat's destruction was why we seem to lose female leadership among the divine and let patriarchy dominate..She was tricked,though.
Yes, she was tricked and deliberately aggravated, and in a way I felt sorry for her in these myths.
I recognize it as a mono-myth. Tiamat represents our early, inner self as we live life attaching to all we see and experience. We get wrapped up in our judgments. The early Gods become noisy. Their noise is disturbing in Andaruna. The dwelling place of the gods. The mind. Cyclical pain is represented by a repeating disturbance in the same manner we would see plagues repeating in Jewish stories. Marduk is the called hero. This represents us, facing our early self as we mature to a wiser self, and destroying what is inside that creates the noisy mind. Then rebuilding a new city. (Self) These outward facing stories are analogous representations of an inner pathway to peace (All similar to Buddhism) and they follow a general sequence. The Bible is made on this template. See all the repeating numbers? It's an old puzzle box to open. A metaphorical Ark, carried by many, looked inside of by few.
The Babylonians had a god that took the form of a cow and another separate named Mummu (read: Moo moo). A massive missed opportunity.
u really need to cut out the highs in your video with a limiter - the white noise over everything is annoying
@@modestrocker1 My ears cut out the highs in their own.
Am i the only one whos drinking way to many cups of tea?
No, I should set up a tea drinkers anonymous organisation...
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Sounds like the first Catholic church.
Combination of gods aspects and stories, to bring disparate groups under one religion.
And I thought Latin American names were long...
This is disgusting/revolting. I hope Eridu Genesis isn't as disgusting and revolting as Enuma Elish. Creating man from Kingu was just as disgusting and revolting.
It is really unclear how you consider that the Sumerians would have taken over an Iranian myth, although it is quite clear that you want the myth to originate from the Indo-Europeans. Iran at the time of the Sumerians was not inhabited by Iranians yet. Isn't it more obvious that the Sumerian myth spread to the world along with all the other things that came to us from Sumer?
Have your ever considered Marduk and the other gods, were literally the planets. Jupiter and Saturn were once stars...then Sol came, all of our mythologies describe the "battles" "births"etc...the skies of old were different than they are today. With petroglyphs around the world describing the same images, with creatin stories and others being similar, with Jupiter Saturn Mars Venus being universal gods, it begs the question: were the skies different back then, than today? The story of the ressurection , 3 days of darkness, then life! describes Sol becoming the primary star in our solar system, after Jupiter was "slain". Who slew Saturn....Venus is the Goddess and Medusa! as she is described as a blazing star, comet etc...Mars the warrior, how can these specks of light we see today, these planets, be revered as gods to our ancestors? Worldwide descriptions of the end of the world, when stars changed rule, and became gas giants like ther are today.
IN the sake of time, I will end ther, but please consider this, as science, physics, and human progress are rest on the electric universe model. It explains all myths perfectly....more and more connections are being made every month and the evidence is overwhelming. Stars give birth to planets, and this would explain the myths....plasma, electic bolts of lighting, storms, heck theres even hard science showing salt water on earth came from the rings of Saturn for crying out loud!! Its all there. Its so fascinating and exciting to be apart of old but new knowledge, and trying to convince others, cuz I am a complete layman in the subject. All I have is the comment section! LOL
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Thanks. Wow. Unifying an empire requires a whole lot of propaganda. Whew! tavi.
I heard Sargon of Akkad read it years ago
Wrong. Sumerian predated Indo-European mythology.
So an 8,000 year old language, is predated by a 5,000 year old culture? Interesting… What would be more accurate is to say that Neolithic Farming culture influenced to a degree the Indo-European culture.
Moo Moo