Are Carbon Fiber wheels worth it? Put on Porsche, find out.
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- Опубліковано 9 вер 2024
- Carbon Revolution has released a new, one-piece Carbon Fiber wheel called the CR-9. They say that you can feel the difference from behind the wheel with just a few laps around the track. So they brought out a GT3 and invited us to Willow Springs to see for ourselves.
15K doesn't sound so bad when high-end carbon bicycle wheels cost 3K.
+Liist A set of 200mph+ street legal superbike CF wheels are around 4k, ceramic bearings included. 3k for bicycle seems overpriced as hell in comparision. It is less material, little balancing needed, no hi-end bearings.
MindBlowerWTF large, complex hollow shape, lots of precision, plus the various twisting forces and requirement for "rider feel". carbon bike frames are not simple. Can get a cheap no-name carbon frame for $500... not exactly recommended.
Just really nervous when the car's owner says to me, right before I get on track, "You break it, you bought it."
1lb removed from a rim is 4 lbs of rotational mass. 8lbs vs 60 is 208 lbs of weight reduction, that's 2 tenths of second in weight alone but will definitely do more.
These will be great on my Prius!!
I can just imagine what would happen if you curbed these wheels.
Regardless of the wheels...I think Matt is utterly enjoying driving the Porsche GT3!!!
A lower-powered and/or lighter car would see the greatest percent increase in performance from these. Try these on an Ariel Atom, an Alfa 4C, or anything from Lotus.
It's interesting to me that the moment of inertia is never given as a specification with wheels. Moment of inertia is an object's resistance to spooling-up. Moment of inertial increases as the wheel's mass is shifted away from the axel. Wheels with higher moment's of inertia sap torque from the engine under acceleration and generate additional heat in the brakes.
1/2MR^2 Physics boi
+Will Debeljak Good luck calculating it for car wheels.
Matlab is not there for nothing ;)
Because likely there is a mostly linear relationship between weight loss and lower moment of inertia for wheels. So only knowing the weight loss is enough to know the performance increase it will provide.
It will be great when\if carbon fiber wheels reach mass market prices. With fuel mileage being pushed so hard by so many governments, you know the auto makers are interested. It would be really great for BMW to counter their heavy run-flats.
I was super interested in sticking these on a Miata up to the point where he mentioned $15000
just make your own :)
Roger Paull That's definitely not gonna be cheaper hahaha
Roger Paull That doesn't seem like a very safe option...
inuysha360 it's only unsafe if you don't know how to do it.
Roger Paull In this case, I'm pretty sure I don't know how to do it. This is why I must not attempt it.
I'd put them on my Corvette for sure, though I don't have $15k to spend on wheels. Hard to judge road feel on a perfectly smooth track, but it certainly wasn't worse than the stock. Based on the strength of the wheels and the TUV test results I would have no issue running them on the street.
according to the German testing, they are about 400% (not a typo) stronger than Aluminum wheels.
No, HRE's are not bad. The way I wrote that sentence, it makes it sound like they are bad, but they are very high quality wheels. I just don't really like them because everyone has them.
there is a video of them intentionally grinding a set on the curb. they got scuffed up pretty good but were structurally fine.
It's called being lefty, and yes it is.
IDK if this was covered (no sound @ work), however unsprung weight (e.g. rims/tires) is = to roughly 1.5x more than weight on any suspended part of the vehicle. Assuming the above comment is correct and these rims offer a 45lb weight savings over stock (or whatever), that would be equivalent to removing 67.5 lbs from almost anywhere else on the car (performance wise). Not too shabby.
the thing is, as innovative as they are, and light, one should really adapt the suspension of the car to fully achieve synergy effects. otherwise you just get wasted potential or dangerous behavior in certain conditions at the limit.
And the computers too.
Now that's what I am talking about, Matt doing his thing behind the wheel of our dream cars! Always a pleasure to get the latest info on cars from Big Matt! Great show bro!
there's a video I saw of these guys hitting a curb pretty hard with the carbon wheel, and the surface gets scratched up but it doesn't crack or shatter.
They are the lightest, strongest wheels available that fit the Porsche 997.
SDHQ hooked me up with front and rear baja bumpers, front and rear lights, and full skids all the way back to the gas tank.
Though the rotational inertia might be noticeable, the real benefits of low unsprung mass are only unlocked with fine suspension tuning for that specific USM. The energy needed overcome rotational inertia is very small, proportionally to the power needed to accelerate the car. However, unsprung mass directly translates to the suspension loads experienced under bump events. Reducing this loading means a suspension system can be lighter, and crucially, the wheels can be controlled more easily.
The change in Moment of Inertia (rotating mass) between carbon and aluminum wheel directly affects force needed to turn the steering wheel due to the Conservation of Angular Momentum.
A change in Moment of Inertia will also change the angular acceleration(heavy this are harder to turn) This is why the is a difference in engine power vs power to ground, it's all the rotating mass between the motor and the ground! monster trucks may lose several hundred HP turning those wheels. in stead of 20-30
they are actually made in australia, so I'd assume so.
the carbon wheels cost literally ten times as much as the camber tires.
yep, that entire segment is shot in reverse, because we actually filmed them taking off the GT3 wheels and putting the carbon ones on before we did the first in-car.
Matt, you're living the American dream man! Wish I got paid to have as much fun as you do (even if it wasn't a lot of $.)
The stock soundtrack from the 90s really completes this video ;-). Good stuff, Matty.
College won't teach you what you need to know to have my job. But since you asked, I went to the University of Pennsylvania and got a Bachelor of Fine Arts in Photography.
I would love to put these CF wheels on my 2017 Corvette Stingray.
Matt said the Carbon wheels are $15k, weights are: F - 15.7lbs, R - 17.4. OZ Ultraleggera wheels, F: 22.4, R: 26.2 for about $2400. OZ Superforgiata F - 17.2, R - 21.6 for about $6200. Volk TE37 are F - 18, R - 23 for $3200.
I don't wear them in every single video, but I do most of the time.
i mean, given the fact that I could tell the difference in the first corner, it really shouldn't matter. Im perfectly capable of feeling the difference between the wheels when installed on the same car back-to-back.
from what they have seen in testing, they are unaffected by heat coming off the brakes.
they are working on that now.
They can be flexed quite far for just how rigid the part is, but a quick shock can easily create microfractures in the resin. Only time will tell, I guess.
$15,000 doesn't sound that bad considering I paid almost $2,000 for a set of carbon fiber wheels for my road bike.
I can think of at least 10 people I know personally who have spent more than $15k on far dumber stuff for their car than wheels. I also know that the retail price of the wheels on my Corvette is identical to these, $15k, and that Proformance sells lots of those. You could easily spend $15k on a custom set of HRE's, or worse, Asanti's or some other garbage. With these wheels, at least they look cool and are super-functional. Hell, a light battery for a Porsche is $2,500.
Something to consider is that the majority of supercar owners rarely, if ever actually track their cars. Even the guys/gals buying the 458s/MP4s DO consider the price differences between potential purchases. If Ferrari, McLaren, or Lamborghini were to add $15k onto their MSRP for carbon wheels, that's a huge price for "bling" even in the supercar world. Lots of owners dont want the carbon ceramic brakes because of the huge initial cost and cost of replacement parts.
Weight on the wheels is much different than weight on the chassis. Not only is it unsprung weight as if often mentioned, but it's rotational inertia. While you might not expect you can tell a difference, I would bet you would notice a difference between light and heavy wheels on the same set up.
Physics dictate that it will handle better, accelerate faster, stop shorter, etc. Not telling the difference would be more due to biology or psychology than anything else.
with these wheels and cambertires you`ll have the ultimate handling!!!
The loss in rotating mass will improve the real wheel horsepower, which should improve acceleration like it does braking- any energy it does not take to turn the wheels can be used to move the car.
that is a crazy ass illusion at 1:16
CF rims for a motorcycle are roughly $5k for both front and rear with ceramic race bearings and sprocket and disc carriers. Have been a few bikes/rims that have come A part at high speed after hitting a large bump. While on a track too so the street is even harder on cf rims. MC cf makers offer street or track cf rims. The street cf rims are little heavier but stronger. And like said, these are worth it to the car that already has every mod already done and are looking for the "what else"
I'm pretty sure the guy bought the car and then developed the wheels.
would probably work wonders together on a sports car.
Carbon Revolution can repair their wheels, actually, but depending on how badly it's damaged it might be cheaper to replace than repair.
Thank you very much for the information with the german standard tests. It was my first question when i read the caption of the video. I would love to have some awesome japan and usa rims here in germany but forget it , they fail all the test certificates
I think its best to just use it on the track, just to be safe. and have your regular wheels for day to day use.
It would be physically impossible to make a steel wheel that light, unless we're talking about a go-kart or something.
probably awesome, if they made camber tires in 19" size.
These carbon wheels and the cambertires that you tested in a previous episode would probably be a match made in heaven. What do you think Matt?
youtube fucked up and made the video public when I set it to private, releasing it without thumbnail.
exactly, that always happens, but right now it's way too expensive for the average customer.
don't let the technicalities of someone's vernacular bother you, especially mine.
very cool, I love BBI and I've been seeing this exact car all over my news feed from them for at least two weeks!
That Porsche sounds fantastic!
Mmmm nice Rolex :D
This got me to thinking about combining carbon/ceramic brakes in the front with Carbon Fiber wheels. I bet this would save another 12-15lbs over conventional steel rotors and allow wheels. Someone being cheap could do the CF wheels and Ceramic brakes in the front and a standard fitment in back (steel rotors and allow wheels). Might look a bit odd but could give the driver most of the benefits of the light weight components where it is felt most - the front end.
A good alloy wheel specialist can repair cracked alloys, that's why when dealerships replace them under warranty they have to have the valves drilled through and be destroyed properly.
Carbon fibre is a weave and not the same as an alloy. I'd be interested to see how they refurbish one.
i love cars and photography, i should go ahead with it in college and maybe ill end up like u :P
Either the Carrera GT, the 1994 Turbo 3.6, or 997.2 GT3 RS
Reducing the weight of the wheels is going to lower rotational & unsprung mass. This will translate into improved acceleration, deceleration, steering and handling. $15k is expensive and I agree that you could reduce weight in many areas on the car for less money. These wheels are for people who have the financial means to seek out yet another way to shave a few tenths off their lap times.
It would be nice to see some lap times before/after with these wheels.
If they only made camber tires in 19", absolutely.
The Ascari A10 uses them looks so sick
you guys may not know this, but Koenigsegg has been making one-piece carbon fiber wheels for it's AgeraR since August of 2012!
The rest have used carbon fiber as the cars body and chassis. There haven't been huge differences unless you go over long periods of time. It's the small subtle changes that make progression over time. That' like saying using forged aluminum wheels over cast wasn't such a big difference so no one did it. At one point forged aluminum wheels were quite expensive. And they're used by high performance car manufacturer's now, and as an option.
You definitely will have to try out the HRE CF2 Carbon Fiber Wheels. I'm curious how they compare.
Its called rolling shutter and usually its annoying (especially to cameramen) but it does look cool there.
I guess I was getting in the mindset for Physics classes starting next week
Seems a decrease in spring rate could help as well, now that you're managing less mass.
The cheapest way to lighten your car by 40lbs is to get your ass on a treadmill.
Additionally, rotational mass is one of the hardest areas to save weight. Sure, replacing steel wheels with alloy is relatively cheap (But has a porsche ever had steel wheels??) but after that you're talking very expensive brake rotors that are only a marginal reduction in weight. I'm sure the reduced gyroscopic forces on the front wheels is the reason he commented on the light steering.
If I were doing 15K of upgrades to my 911 race car, it'd be 10K on better brakes and 5K on suspension.
Look at cost/benefit: these carbon wheels are at the very thin edge of the wedge, where massive money returns a little performance - so you should only put these on a car where you've already spent 150K upgrading it.
Keep up the good work Matt! Great review as usual.
I wonder what if he was just told it was carbon fiber rims how he would act. like a placebo you know?
I was thinking the exact same thing (as far as the placebo effect) on the camber tire review he did
I love carbon fiber and those wheels
the steering difference is definitely the rotating mass. think of a gyroscope. the heavier it is the more force you have to use to change the axis a rotational body is spinning around.
search it they dented aluminum wheels on a gaint 4 ft long 4 inch deep pothole just destroyed em but ran some carbon fiber wheels over it twice as fast and didnt phase it
Thanks matt, maybe 0-60 next time please.
Newly subscribed here. Loving the videos! Keep up the good work!
No, but acceleration is. And a 0-60 time is usually a good indicator of what a car can do in terms of accelerating.
half way through the video i had no complaints.
I think Matt should make these blind tests. He shouldn't know if he's on carbon/aluminum, or regular tires/cambertires, etc.
Bummer that this GT3 wasn’t specd with the pccb’s. Definitely should be. Would have had much more consistent braking for you after the other guys thrashed it.
You should try it on a lower powered car.
Something like 200Bhp Civic Type-R, or a Genesis Coupe. Because they have less power, you would probably feel even more difference.
The only thing I can see being a problem is that carbon fibre is brittle.
Smack it hard enough and you'll have lovely sharp carbon shards flying about.
sick video man
The question all the GT3 owners (so not me) want answered is do they make a center locking version?
Unsprung weight is different then taking off weight from seats,hoods,etc.
I'm not alone here, and there is a difference between a wheel and a rim. A rim is the part that's attached to the tire. A bicycle has rims attached to a hub by spokes. Cars have wheels that are one (unbroken) piece. It wasn't you bothering me, just the misuse in general.
Great video! Like how you have been covering some things I've never heard of...cambered tired, and cf wheels.
Sucks the brakes were bad...that's not cool...Porsche's should always have great brakes.
Spot on! I like it when someone with a brain posts a meaningful response. :)
LMAO that button is hanging on for dear life lol.
I like the wheels a lot. But i think the true test would be a "blind" one where the driver doesn't know whether he has aluminum or carbon wheels and have him guess which ones were best. Also if there is a noticeable performance increase just to have 0-60, quarter mile or lap times in comparison to stock wheels.
Holy crap... I would be so P.O. if I bumped curb with those rims.
I'm fairly certain that he was referring to the highly modified supercar, which is probably worth upwards of 300k (since it is tuned by BBI), and not the 15k wheels.
They should have used the new Carbo-Tanium material instead. IT is much better than can fiber because carbon fiber will shatter ... but Carbo Tanium will bend like metal but still has the strength of Carbon Fiber.
that's both awesome and intimidating :D
Removing unsprung weight has a great effect on the cars performance than sprung weight. Wheels, tires and brakes are unsprung weight. Driver is sprung weight.
you have to use music in videos, otherwise the editing transitions will sound fully amateur and shitty.