I have seen this testing method a few times by a few different youtubers over the years. But, this is the first time that I actually understood what exactlly has been done. Many of them have overcomplicated the explanation. Thank you
Hi Peter, I'm from South Africa and I just bought the Parf Guide system directly from Axminster and made myself a 5 x 3 foot MFT table. My 5 cut test came to 0.006deg with my very first try. Super impressed and happy with the product.
finally got mine done. It didn't turn out as good as yours .00275 radians. This was quite the learning experience. I noticed some of the 3 mm holes were looser than others i am sure that it was technique. It still looks good with a square. Maybe next time will be better.
Peter I am having a wee problem in sorting out true cutting on my Festool table top and just about to embark on the 4 cut method to quantify the error I am dealing with before I set about rectification. My aim is to use the flip down track (As Festool supplied) and a fixed fence along the rearmost set of holes fixed to flat faced bench dogs to secure the fence and referenced to the holes. On first checking for squareness with a long square it was obvious the hinged track was way out and a 4 cut test would have been superfluous but data rich.😉 So, using a another set of Parf dogs at right angles to the fence, and with the aid of a parallel spacer against the non cutting side of the track - I adjusted the track mountings both ‘fore and aft’ to achieve as close to truth as I could manage (drag on a feeler gauge). To do this I had to move the factory adjusted stops.😳 Before I embark on the 4 cut test a few questions. 1. Festool apparently make no guarantee that their dog holes are truly perpendicular in their relationship and they are only for clamping. Hence their rail system referencing off the aluminium extrusions. Is that true - is Parf Guide 2 and a new top required? 2. Am I expecting too much with the hinged track - the location in the non hinge end ( bracket to rail) is a bit woolly to say the least. 3. Would I better off using Parf dogs and clips to retain the rail as you demonstrate? 4. That all being said I would like to get the hinged track set up as good as I can so - if the resultant cut 4 is thicker at the hinge end of the table - which direction does the track need to rotate (imagine looking down on it in the action position) clockwise or anti-clockwise - I cannot quite get my old head around it? Your results look impressive (in degrees) but when scaled up to say a 1000mm board one end would be 2.2mm out of the true 90 degree datum (tan of .0025745 degrees x1000) - do you agree? Great vid Peter - again.😀👍
Hi Norman, I would not use the Festool top if you notice that it is not accurate. Hence produce your own using the PGS. I would slo not use the Festool hinge mechanism as it can give inaccurate results - dogs are better but only if you have an accurate top. Yes, do use dogs and rails clips. If the cut pice is wider nearest to you then the track fixing nearest to you needs to go to the left. You will not get anything like the accuracy that I achieved with the hinged guide rail but good luck. Peter
New Brit Workshop Thank you that’s perfect information. I will persevere with the getting the hinge rail as accurate as possible just out of bloody mindedness (a personality defect) for use on less critical work. However I will get some clips and try against the dogs in the existing top (for critical work) and see what transpires before going the PGS route and doing a new top. BTW did you agree on my calculation for the error on a 1000mm board?
Hi Norman, No, your calculation is wrong. To get a linear error you need to take the error in radians and multiply that by 1000. So, it is 0.00016 x 1000 = 0.16 mm. Peter
You actually need to take the arctangent of the quotient to get radians. Your MFT is so accurate that the math comes out close enough since for very small values of x, x is approximately equal to the arctangent of x. It changes the result by such a small amount in this case (less than 1/100,000th of a degree!) that I apologize for even mentioning it, but my father was a mathematician and I couldn't let it go. Thank you for such a wonderful video. You are a fantastic teacher and this is probably the best demonstration of the four-cut method I have ever seen.
Funny enough I too am a mathematician but did quite a bit of engineering as well. You are right that for very small angles the tangent approximates to the angle in radians which is how the 4 (or 5) cut test works. Cheers. Peter
Have you ever considered an adjustable floating style platform supported by the bench dog holes to hold the tracksaw, preferably somewhere close to where the end of the cut and track is to eliminate the need to set the tracksaw aside between cuts?
Thank you Peter. I thoroughly enjoy your videos. You are such a natural teacher, so precise and clear. I plan on making a track saw station and was wondering about those clips you use to hook the track on to the bench dogs. Are they something that fits in to the Festool track? Can you tell me where they might be available here in The states? Thank you for your help.
Hi John, Those red clips are designed for the Festool track and I thought might be available from TSO. Failing that go direct to Axminster - product code 102973. Peter
My calipers must not be the best because if I do not do all my readings at the tip there is a slight variance. I caught this in your measuring. I noticed that your first end measure was in the jaws farther and the second end measure was at the tip more. What calipers do you have? I would love to have a set accurate all the way down and not just at the tip. Thanks!
@Pat Mahon I was just making light joke about the 4 or 5 cut method name. I thought I'd ease the tension by renaming the process completely. (And cause more OCD angst/outrage in the process ;-)
I note that George Blair (below) attributes the 5 cut method to Wm Ng. Recently many have demonstrated the technique on UA-cam.Their attributions generally trace back to Ng. Each time I see the trick explained I wonder whether the insight is not centuries old. I mean there is so little new in the world. Is anyone familiar with a usage that predates this recent popularization?
Hi Mark, The test is very old and did indeed start as the 5 cut test. However, with most woodworkers using a workshop scrap to do the test they almost always will start with one good edge and so they actually only do 4 cuts. Cheers. Peter
James King of Kings Fine Woodworking explains the 5 cut test in a video he made showing how he builds a crosscut sled for his table saw. I don’t remember if he goes into depth on who invented this test or not but I found it to be very instructive. As I am by no stretch of the imagination any sort of mathematician I find Peter’s videos fascinating.
Hi Peter, I’ve just built my workbench cutting station. I started in the centre of my piece of 18mm ply (1800x 890). I appreciate that the accuracy is max when done within the span of a parfstick. I did the test with parf fence in the 8th row and super dogs in 2nd and 9th row. My angular accuracy is 0.04 degree. Somewhat deflated:-(. Especially as I thought I was careful. Is 0.04 degrees usable? Thanks.
Hi Adrian, Do not be deflated - 0.04 degree is far more accurate than even the most fussy professionals would try and achieve. For me, normal woodwork is to 0.1 degree. Wood will move and few woodworking joints can achieve squareness to better that 0.1 degree and so you are absolutely fine. Take care. Peter
@@NewBritWorkshop dear Peter thank you so much for your swift reply. I’ve just redone a column of holes relative to my original row ( which is offset 32mm). I was much more careful with clamping and joining the hypotenuse to the opposite, the offset row being the adjacent. Now I get 0.0192 degrees. :-).
Hi Adrian, I did a 4 cut test shown in a video a while ago which I did not hide or take down and the results were awful. Later I discovered that my Festool saw had badly adjusted clamps that go on the guide rail. When I repeated the test it was 20 times better. Well done. Peter
Hello Peter - made 2 MFT tables, one is a full sheet of black Valchromat, looks stunning with 6mm green MR MDF removable cutting strips. Also just discovered that i can use my Dewalt tracksaw on the Festool rail, which will then let me use your clips in the side track. Normally all cuts are done working through the sheet from the left and cutting on the right to your cut line. I am also interested in setting up repeat cuts, but measuring back to the track cutting edge from the right. I have seen some that make specific sized offcuts that go on the right, push their work up to them and then make repeated cuts of the same size. Is there a readily available calculation tool for cutting like this?
Hi Steve, Excellent. If cutting on the right side of the rail one usually only needs to add the width of the saw blade (kerf) when measuring from the right. Cheers. Peter
@@NewBritWorkshop Hi Peter, I figured it out and used a spreadsheet, I cut a 55mm strip and place that against my dogs 2 rows away from from the rail, with my saw kerf that gives me exactly 80mm for my rails and stiles, easy repeat cuts just pushing the sheet through against the strip
@New Brit Workshop, Hello Peter, where can I get this green cover for the TS55 / TS75? Do you have a source of supply there? It improves suction and is better than tape. Greetz from Germany
Hi Thomas, I said where mine came from in the video. I do not know of any other source. However, Festool do sell a cover that does the same job - product code 491750. Peter
Hi Rob, I am not aware of the advantages (or disadvantages) of toe-in. As far as I am aware circular saw blades are designed to work dead straight. Peter
@@NewBritWorkshop I'm sure tracksaws are designed with slight toe-in to prevent the rear teeth marring the cut. I believe the festtool setup involves using a piece of paper as a spacer behind the rear teeth when aligning the saw to a track.
Your new Cutting Station’s crosscut accuracy is terrific! How will you test the other angles. You don’t get what you expect, you get what you inspect. “Trust but Verify!“
Hello Peter I'm working on a project at the moment and I have some photos I'd like to share with you I think you might find this very interesting Philip
Hello Peter have just twice repeated your 4 X cut on my Parf 1 cutting station and it produces a curious result ... leaving out the math for a moment cut 1 and cut 2 is dead square on the corner using my Woodpeckers precision square, similarly cut 2 and cut 3 appear dead square as does cut 3 to cut 4 ... only cut 4 to cut 1 is out by a massive 1.0mm!!! .... which leaves me wondering is my cutting station square 3 out of 4 times? ... I guess the error is cumulative over the 4 cuts ... have just purchased Parf ll and will see if things change ...
Hi Edward, Yes, Some careful users have reported similar results. However, a lot depends on how well the tracksaw is set up and the care when cutting. Even so, results are far more accurate than any other method available to the average woodworker. Cheers. Peter
Hi Fred, In order to get plans or to contact me via email I need your email address. UA-cam no longer has a private messaging service and so in order to get in touch you need to place a comment on this or any other video with your email address. The UA-cam software should identify and send it to the spam folder for The New Brit Workshop. Nobody will be able to see your email address except you and me. I will then delete your comment so that it does not end up in the public domain and I will then send the plans. Were we to do this the other way around then my comment, with my email address, would appear for all the world to see. Peter
No he did the maths correctly. You can either multiply 508 by 4 and then divide the top by that product or as Peter did it divide the top by 508 and then divide that answer by 4. Either way gives the same answer. You would only multiply the whole thing by 4 if the x4 was on the top line.
I have seen this testing method a few times by a few different youtubers over the years. But, this is the first time that I actually understood what exactlly has been done. Many of them have overcomplicated the explanation. Thank you
Hi Peter, I'm from South Africa and I just bought the Parf Guide system directly from Axminster and made myself a 5 x 3 foot MFT table. My 5 cut test came to 0.006deg with my very first try. Super impressed and happy with the product.
Hi Marcel, Brilliant results - well done. Cheers. Peter
Great stuff Peter
Great precision! Now we can build a space shuttle using that cutting station.
I wonder whether we will have one on the Moon before we go to Mars?
Genius in a grey jacket, excellent presentation.
Glad you liked it!
finally got mine done. It didn't turn out as good as yours .00275 radians. This was quite the learning experience. I noticed some of the 3 mm holes were looser than others i am sure that it was technique. It still looks good with a square. Maybe next time will be better.
That is pretty good - just under 0.04 degrees - better than most woodworking squares ! Well done. Peter
Peter I am having a wee problem in sorting out true cutting on my Festool table top and just about to embark on the 4 cut method to quantify the error I am dealing with before I set about rectification.
My aim is to use the flip down track (As Festool supplied) and a fixed fence along the rearmost set of holes fixed to flat faced bench dogs to secure the fence and referenced to the holes. On first checking for squareness with a long square it was obvious the hinged track was way out and a 4 cut test would have been superfluous but data rich.😉
So, using a another set of Parf dogs at right angles to the fence, and with the aid of a parallel spacer against the non cutting side of the track - I adjusted the track mountings both ‘fore and aft’ to achieve as close to truth as I could manage (drag on a feeler gauge). To do this I had to move the factory adjusted stops.😳
Before I embark on the 4 cut test a few questions.
1. Festool apparently make no guarantee that their dog holes are truly perpendicular in their relationship and they are only for clamping. Hence their rail system referencing off the aluminium extrusions. Is that true - is Parf Guide 2 and a new top required?
2. Am I expecting too much with the hinged track - the location in the non hinge end ( bracket to rail) is a bit woolly to say the least.
3. Would I better off using Parf dogs and clips to retain the rail as you demonstrate?
4. That all being said I would like to get the hinged track set up as good as I can so - if the resultant cut 4 is thicker at the hinge end of the table - which direction does the track need to rotate (imagine looking down on it in the action position) clockwise or anti-clockwise - I cannot quite get my old head around it?
Your results look impressive (in degrees) but when scaled up to say a 1000mm board one end would be 2.2mm out of the true 90 degree datum (tan of .0025745 degrees x1000) - do you agree?
Great vid Peter - again.😀👍
Hi Norman, I would not use the Festool top if you notice that it is not accurate. Hence produce your own using the PGS. I would slo not use the Festool hinge mechanism as it can give inaccurate results - dogs are better but only if you have an accurate top. Yes, do use dogs and rails clips. If the cut pice is wider nearest to you then the track fixing nearest to you needs to go to the left. You will not get anything like the accuracy that I achieved with the hinged guide rail but good luck. Peter
New Brit Workshop Thank you that’s perfect information. I will persevere with the getting the hinge rail as accurate as possible just out of bloody mindedness (a personality defect) for use on less critical work. However I will get some clips and try against the dogs in the existing top (for critical work) and see what transpires before going the PGS route and doing a new top. BTW did you agree on my calculation for the error on a 1000mm board?
Hi Norman, No, your calculation is wrong. To get a linear error you need to take the error in radians and multiply that by 1000. So, it is 0.00016 x 1000 = 0.16 mm. Peter
New Brit Workshop Thanks Peter - that makes perfect sense.😀👍 My rail clips arrived today so - tomorrow four cut test.😀
You actually need to take the arctangent of the quotient to get radians. Your MFT is so accurate that the math comes out close enough since for very small values of x, x is approximately equal to the arctangent of x. It changes the result by such a small amount in this case (less than 1/100,000th of a degree!) that I apologize for even mentioning it, but my father was a mathematician and I couldn't let it go.
Thank you for such a wonderful video. You are a fantastic teacher and this is probably the best demonstration of the four-cut method I have ever seen.
Funny enough I too am a mathematician but did quite a bit of engineering as well. You are right that for very small angles the tangent approximates to the angle in radians which is how the 4 (or 5) cut test works. Cheers. Peter
Fantastic! So satisfying.
Love the "Tulips from Amsterdam" theme at the end 👍🌷🌷🌷
Peter your such a wonderful presenter, but I’m so glad your human as well catching your heel on material behind you, it happens to me all the time
Hi Derek, I am not afraid to show my mistakes in fact believe that many of them will help others to avoid similar problems. Cheers. Peter
A very good video. Thanks
Glad you liked it!
A tip of the hat to a VERY kind person. "Our" Mr Parfitt. What is not to love him?
Hi Pat, You are very kind. Cheers. Peter
Fantastic .... haha ..... the proof of the pudding is in the eating .... well done, a great system your Parf Guide set.
Have you ever considered an adjustable floating style platform supported by the bench dog holes to hold the tracksaw, preferably somewhere close to where the end of the cut and track is to eliminate the need to set the tracksaw aside between cuts?
Hi Craig, I played with an idea like that about 8 years ago and decided it would not justify the effort to make it. Nice idea though. Cheers. Peter
I'd love to make an MDF top like this. I'm in the US. Where could I buy the Medite MR MDF? Thanks, Peter!
I am sorry but I do not know - talk to your larger sheet goods suppliers as the name is known world wide. Peter
Thank you Peter. I thoroughly enjoy your videos. You are such a natural teacher, so precise and clear.
I plan on making a track saw station and was wondering about those clips you use to hook the track on to the bench dogs. Are they something that fits in to the Festool track? Can you tell me where they might be available here in The states?
Thank you for your help.
Hi John, Those red clips are designed for the Festool track and I thought might be available from TSO. Failing that go direct to Axminster - product code 102973. Peter
My calipers must not be the best because if I do not do all my readings at the tip there is a slight variance. I caught this in your measuring. I noticed that your first end measure was in the jaws farther and the second end measure was at the tip more. What calipers do you have? I would love to have a set accurate all the way down and not just at the tip. Thanks!
Hi John, I made a video about them a while ago - they come from Igaging. Here is the link to the video:
ua-cam.com/video/UqddRHxe0Hw/v-deo.html
Peter
I am a really big fan of your work Peter..... Please keep them coming sir......
With many thanks to Mr NG for his MULTI-CUT test!
@Pat Mahon I was just making light joke about the 4 or 5 cut method name. I thought I'd ease the tension by renaming the process completely. (And cause more OCD angst/outrage in the process ;-)
If a jobs worth doing, it's worth doing accurately! Lol. Great job as always Peter.
Absolutely
I note that George Blair (below) attributes the 5 cut method to Wm Ng. Recently many have demonstrated the technique on UA-cam.Their attributions generally trace back to Ng. Each time I see the trick explained I wonder whether the insight is not centuries old. I mean there is so little new in the world. Is anyone familiar with a usage that predates this recent popularization?
Hi Mark, The test is very old and did indeed start as the 5 cut test. However, with most woodworkers using a workshop scrap to do the test they almost always will start with one good edge and so they actually only do 4 cuts. Cheers. Peter
James King of Kings Fine Woodworking explains the 5 cut test in a video he made showing how he builds a crosscut sled for his table saw. I don’t remember if he goes into depth on who invented this test or not but I found it to be very instructive.
As I am by no stretch of the imagination any sort of mathematician I find Peter’s videos fascinating.
Hi Peter, I’ve just built my workbench cutting station. I started in the centre of my piece of 18mm ply (1800x 890). I appreciate that the accuracy is max when done within the span of a parfstick. I did the test with parf fence in the 8th row and super dogs in 2nd and 9th row. My angular accuracy is 0.04 degree. Somewhat deflated:-(. Especially as I thought I was careful. Is 0.04 degrees usable? Thanks.
Hi Adrian, Do not be deflated - 0.04 degree is far more accurate than even the most fussy professionals would try and achieve. For me, normal woodwork is to 0.1 degree. Wood will move and few woodworking joints can achieve squareness to better that 0.1 degree and so you are absolutely fine. Take care. Peter
@@NewBritWorkshop dear Peter thank you so much for your swift reply. I’ve just redone a column of holes relative to my original row ( which is offset 32mm). I was much more careful with clamping and joining the hypotenuse to the opposite, the offset row being the adjacent. Now I get 0.0192 degrees. :-).
Hi Adrian, I did a 4 cut test shown in a video a while ago which I did not hide or take down and the results were awful. Later I discovered that my Festool saw had badly adjusted clamps that go on the guide rail. When I repeated the test it was 20 times better. Well done. Peter
@@NewBritWorkshop dear Peter I thought my saw was well adjusted but just adjusted a fraction and now I get 0.004!
Hi Adrian, That is brilliant - well done. Peter
Pretty good from Peter is the gold standard 👍🏻better than a bar of bullion
Hello Peter - made 2 MFT tables, one is a full sheet of black Valchromat, looks stunning with 6mm green MR MDF removable cutting strips. Also just discovered that i can use my Dewalt tracksaw on the Festool rail, which will then let me use your clips in the side track. Normally all cuts are done working through the sheet from the left and cutting on the right to your cut line. I am also interested in setting up repeat cuts, but measuring back to the track cutting edge from the right. I have seen some that make specific sized offcuts that go on the right, push their work up to them and then make repeated cuts of the same size. Is there a readily available calculation tool for cutting like this?
Hi Steve, Excellent. If cutting on the right side of the rail one usually only needs to add the width of the saw blade (kerf) when measuring from the right. Cheers. Peter
@@NewBritWorkshop Hi Peter, I figured it out and used a spreadsheet, I cut a 55mm strip and place that against my dogs 2 rows away from from the rail, with my saw kerf that gives me exactly 80mm for my rails and stiles, easy repeat cuts just pushing the sheet through against the strip
Brilliant
Bravo!!!
Hi Peter, i would be grateful if can tell me the measurements of your cutting station. Thanks.
I can send you the plans if you have an email address. Peter
Plans on the way. Peter
Ah - and Tulips from Amsterdam for the outro… !
@New Brit Workshop, Hello Peter, where can I get this green cover for the TS55 / TS75? Do you have a source of supply there? It improves suction and is better than tape. Greetz from Germany
Hi Thomas, I said where mine came from in the video. I do not know of any other source. However, Festool do sell a cover that does the same job - product code 491750. Peter
So how much is a 0.00225 degree drift over 10 miles? I need a visual of this minutia.
It is 11 feet and 10 inches and hardly of any importance unless it is something to do with interplanetary navigation ! Peter
@@NewBritWorkshopHah! I suppose that new bookshelf won't mind the discrepancy.
A question, what's called the orange fence that you are using?
Gr Danny from the Netherlands
@Applehash found it, Thankyou mate.
Greets Danny
Is this method valid for a saw that has toe-in?
Hi Rob, I am not aware of the advantages (or disadvantages) of toe-in. As far as I am aware circular saw blades are designed to work dead straight. Peter
@@NewBritWorkshop I'm sure tracksaws are designed with slight toe-in to prevent the rear teeth marring the cut. I believe the festtool setup involves using a piece of paper as a spacer behind the rear teeth when aligning the saw to a track.
www.manualslib.com/manual/511697/Festool-Ts-55-Req.html?page=22#manual
Your new Cutting Station’s crosscut accuracy is terrific! How will you test the other angles. You don’t get what you expect, you get what you inspect. “Trust but Verify!“
Not sure about that. Peter
Hello Peter I'm working on a project at the moment and I have some photos I'd like to share with you I think you might find this very interesting Philip
Sounds great! I need your email address so that you can send them. Peter
Hello Peter have just twice repeated your 4 X cut on my Parf 1 cutting station and it produces a curious result ... leaving out the math for a moment cut 1 and cut 2 is dead square on the corner using my Woodpeckers precision square, similarly cut 2 and cut 3 appear dead square as does cut 3 to cut 4 ... only cut 4 to cut 1 is out by a massive 1.0mm!!! .... which leaves me wondering is my cutting station square 3 out of 4 times? ... I guess the error is cumulative over the 4 cuts ... have just purchased Parf ll and will see if things change ...
Hi Michael, In the 4 (or 5) cut test he final cut is the one that counts and the ones before have no meaning. Peter
I have the same problem. I've made two mft tops with the PGS II and both of them are not accurate. On the 5th cut 0.8mm off.
The tangent of .08/508 = .0000027 degrees. Is this incorrect? It shows that your cutting station is much more accurate than your calculation.
Hi Edward, Yes, Some careful users have reported similar results. However, a lot depends on how well the tracksaw is set up and the care when cutting. Even so, results are far more accurate than any other method available to the average woodworker. Cheers. Peter
i see pentagram markings on the cutting board, witch craft i tell you!
GDay Peter how do I get copies of your drawings
Hi Fred, In order to get plans or to contact me via email I need your email address. UA-cam no longer has a private messaging service and so in order to get in touch you need to place a comment on this or any other video with your email address. The UA-cam software should identify and send it to the spam folder for The New Brit Workshop. Nobody will be able to see your email address except you and me. I will then delete your comment so that it does not end up in the public domain and I will then send the plans. Were we to do this the other way around then my comment, with my email address, would appear for all the world to see. Peter
The on screen graphics and paper calculation show 'x4' and not divide by 4. The calculation does work if 0.08/2032
No he did the maths correctly. You can either multiply 508 by 4 and then divide the top by that product or as Peter did it divide the top by 508 and then divide that answer by 4. Either way gives the same answer. You would only multiply the whole thing by 4 if the x4 was on the top line.
You should give William Ng credit for the 5 cut method
It has been around for a lot longer than that. Peter
Regards to Betty!
.000394 degrees off? Nope not bad at all! (unless you are traveling to Mars)🤣
.000394 Radians, not degrees.
0.0023 degrees
Darren - The email I sent to the address you gave bounced back. Please send it again !!!!!! Peter