Dear online piano teacher, thank you for the reminder. Thank you for guiding us through your great contents! Stay healthy and happy! Love from Indonesia. ❤️
Ok, you make an excellent point. However, some guidance is necessary. With so many moving parts to the arm, how does one keep track of all this and learn to make it consistent? A follow up video would be helpful.
Good point from self-taught people is recording yourself. Many mistakes or things you'll do 'wrong' without even realising are almost reflexes and you need the outer eye if you know how to identify potential problems.
Bad practice is bad practice, whether it's repeating your mistakes or varying them. Ideally, the piano student learns good posture at the early stages. For anyone who has been without a teacher for a long time, self-monitoring is essential. Pianists who are performing prescribed arrangements do need a very comprehensive technique, but some of the modern music pianists might not need a textbook posture, particularly not if they are specialising in a limited number of techniques, and maybe improvising from within their own comfort zone.
Very well said. "Modern" music styling or complex arranged jazz pieces like I work on must have some leeway. Billy Joel is an outstanding pianist, with great technique; since his style is more popular/jazz oriented he is more into entertaining, overall audience reaction, than theoretical perfection at the keyboard. I love the guy. We do what we must to achieve our goals, which implies we need to be clear about what those goals are. I guess we could say, if you are accomplishing what you want to do, it's somehow right for you. I noticed some retarding of progress, needed to improve my technique, which CW is helping me with. My results speak for themselves, for me. No one ever arrives. It's always, hopefully, perpetual progress. Piano is more than classical dusty busty masters. I would venture that the overall weight and numbers of players don't pursue, at least continue, with classical styling. Fundamental efficient form can be adapted to any style, genre or repertoire. Emmet Cohen possesses an impeccable piano technique. My 2 cents for what it's worth.
I like your lesson. The point is to learn efficient techniques and keep repeating those things until they are settled in muscle memory so they can be done without thinking about them. Even then, it's good to review to make sure you're keeping the best form; I will add the best form "for that style." For example, my arranged jazz scores ask me to very difficult fingerings, hand positions, let alone rhythmic complexities; sometimes some tension can't be avoided, some momentary hand stretching is impossible to avoid unless you want to change the score to fit someone else's ideals of the player's capabilities. Period. The longer one lingers in mistakes, the longer it takes to correct it. Like repeating a less efficient fingering or playing a rhythm wrong. Correction is difficult because the poor form must be unlearned and the replacement learned. As far as I see it, one does the very best one can, trying to eliminate as many inefficiencies as possible, employing bad form as little as possible. Perfect music doesn't exist and if it did, we wouldn't like it. It's not human. I watched Christa Ludwig lose it in objection, when Lenny Bernstein was conducting her solo tempo at breakneck speed with orchestra, possible with most symphonic instruments, not so words. After stopping a few times in disgust in rehearsal, Lenny went over to her and basically said. 'This always happens. Nobody is going to understand these words anyway. Do the best you can,' to an international star. The difference between God and Lenny Bernstein? God doesn't think he's Lenny Bernstein.
Hammering on hyperefficient practicing can ironically also cause stiffness and stress due to perfectionism. I believe it is good to mess around with a piece without necessarily focusing on using the exact same muscle memory - you have to use your ears too now and then..
I'd be interested to hear that view from anyone who's actually studied with a good teacher who teaches in this way and practiced like this for more than 5 minutes. It's interesting to me how everyone acknowledges that it's important to have 'good form' when playing golf or any other sport but when it comes to playing piano they think that is just ridiculous!
@@PIANO_LAB Very nice that you made the assumption that I didn't study with a good teacher, but I'll ignore it. I never claimed that keeping good form isn't of huge importance in piano practice, I am claiming that a too rigid focus of it in place of actual musical practice can also disturb the player and cause stiffness, too much internal focus and , well, plenty of other issues. Funny that you mention golf wherein also in that sport observing/staring at your goal and using your proprioception to feel your stick and the ball is a part of practice that you can disturb by focusing only on your posture. My point is that if a pianist is stuck on trying to get their back straight, hands in the exact good position and this is their main focus all the time then yes, other related abilities will suffer. Also, piano isn't a sport.
I didn't say you didn't study with a good teacher. I said a good teacher who teaches these kinds of things. Big difference. Leon fleisher was a great teacher in many regards but did not teach any of this stuff. Anyways the point still stands. I don't believe that anyone who has seriously studied this kind of stuff would say what you're saying. Biomechanics is equally important In any highly complicated physical skill. Piano is no different. Just something for you to think about: How would you define piano competitions? If a piano competition is not a sport then what is it? Anyways, if you don't find these concepts helpful that means that you are one of the few people who naturally developed technique without having this kind of instruction. That's great news! Because many of us struggle with tension and injury and need this kind of instruction in order to sort out our technique. Those are the people that these videos are for not the few people who play very well on their own with no technical instruction.
@@PIANO_LAB I find your concepts often helpful and think you're definitely one of the more/most informed technique teachers on here, my message probably came off as very negative because of my doubtful social skills. As for a teacher, I have literally been studying/following a physiological research based approach to relieving injuries for pianists for the past 3 years. (and my teachers before that weren't particularly terrible) Again, I never said that biomechanics are not equally important. Piano competitions are considered a sport yes, and I believe the pianists who really buy into that have less chance of winning than weird freaks of nature like Pogorelich or recently this Yunchan Lim (who does have somewhat decent posture for a competition player, ironically enough.) And even then, a lot of the competition pianists that are doing well play with horrible posture and mechanics and will probably be injured soon enough, which is very sad. But to say that everything they've been doing up to now has been useless because of the implication that their muscle memory wouldn't be applicable if they adjust to a good posture seems silly, there is still an art side and conceptual side to piano playing. Again, my only point was that practicing strictly biomechanics is not enough and that there is a balance to practicing pure musically with external focus and more physically with internal focus. And I do think it is important to connect the two and that that takes insanely a lot of time.
@@PIANO_LAB to add to this boring monologue I was giving you (my apologies) - the more I studied injury-free technique which helped my pianistic level immensely, the more I actually have been doubting the kind of fast-track studying which focuses purely on efficience, pure stability and frankly the ability to sight-read it. I believe more and more in taking a lot of time for music rather than trying to make it work fast, basically.
Maybe, maybe not. Do people have even 3 versions of a passage? When you play something, you're going to find fingerlings you're most comfortable and keep repeating the same. If you play a wrong note, it's more likely you keep repeating the mistake than playing the right note some of the time. People who come up with 3 versions of something don"t know which is right. Those who keep repeating the the same way even when they're wrong are certain they're right.
Dear online piano teacher, thank you for the reminder. Thank you for guiding us through your great contents! Stay healthy and happy! Love from Indonesia. ❤️
Ok, you make an excellent point. However, some guidance is necessary. With so many moving parts to the arm, how does one keep track of all this and learn to make it consistent? A follow up video would be helpful.
Good point from self-taught people is recording yourself. Many mistakes or things you'll do 'wrong' without even realising are almost reflexes and you need the outer eye if you know how to identify potential problems.
@@ciamber Or filming yourself, in the case of the piano, since posture is so important.
Your point is a good one. If you subscribe to C's channel, you get his dozens upon dozens of lessons on virtually all elements technique.
Bad practice is bad practice, whether it's repeating your mistakes or varying them. Ideally, the piano student learns good posture at the early stages. For anyone who has been without a teacher for a long time, self-monitoring is essential. Pianists who are performing prescribed arrangements do need a very comprehensive technique, but some of the modern music pianists might not need a textbook posture, particularly not if they are specialising in a limited number of techniques, and maybe improvising from within their own comfort zone.
Very well said. "Modern" music styling or complex arranged jazz pieces like I work on must have some leeway. Billy Joel is an outstanding pianist, with great technique; since his style is more popular/jazz oriented he is more into entertaining, overall audience reaction, than theoretical perfection at the keyboard. I love the guy. We do what we must to achieve our goals, which implies we need to be clear about what those goals are. I guess we could say, if you are accomplishing what you want to do, it's somehow right for you. I noticed some retarding of progress, needed to improve my technique, which CW is helping me with. My results speak for themselves, for me. No one ever arrives. It's always, hopefully, perpetual progress.
Piano is more than classical dusty busty masters. I would venture that the overall weight and numbers of players don't pursue, at least continue, with classical styling. Fundamental efficient form can be adapted to any style, genre or repertoire. Emmet Cohen possesses an impeccable piano technique.
My 2 cents for what it's worth.
I like your lesson. The point is to learn efficient techniques and keep repeating those things until they are settled in muscle memory so they can be done without thinking about them. Even then, it's good to review to make sure you're keeping the best form; I will add the best form "for that style." For example, my arranged jazz scores ask me to very difficult fingerings, hand positions, let alone rhythmic complexities; sometimes some tension can't be avoided, some momentary hand stretching is impossible to avoid unless you want to change the score to fit someone else's ideals of the player's capabilities. Period. The longer one lingers in mistakes, the longer it takes to correct it. Like repeating a less efficient fingering or playing a rhythm wrong. Correction is difficult because the poor form must be unlearned and the replacement learned.
As far as I see it, one does the very best one can, trying to eliminate as many inefficiencies as possible, employing bad form as little as possible. Perfect music doesn't exist and if it did, we wouldn't like it. It's not human.
I watched Christa Ludwig lose it in objection, when Lenny Bernstein was conducting her solo tempo at breakneck speed with orchestra, possible with most symphonic instruments, not so words. After stopping a few times in disgust in rehearsal, Lenny went over to her and basically said. 'This always happens. Nobody is going to understand these words anyway. Do the best you can,' to an international star.
The difference between God and Lenny Bernstein? God doesn't think he's Lenny Bernstein.
Hammering on hyperefficient practicing can ironically also cause stiffness and stress due to perfectionism. I believe it is good to mess around with a piece without necessarily focusing on using the exact same muscle memory - you have to use your ears too now and then..
I'd be interested to hear that view from anyone who's actually studied with a good teacher who teaches in this way and practiced like this for more than 5 minutes. It's interesting to me how everyone acknowledges that it's important to have 'good form' when playing golf or any other sport but when it comes to playing piano they think that is just ridiculous!
@@PIANO_LAB Very nice that you made the assumption that I didn't study with a good teacher, but I'll ignore it. I never claimed that keeping good form isn't of huge importance in piano practice, I am claiming that a too rigid focus of it in place of actual musical practice can also disturb the player and cause stiffness, too much internal focus and , well, plenty of other issues. Funny that you mention golf wherein also in that sport observing/staring at your goal and using your proprioception to feel your stick and the ball is a part of practice that you can disturb by focusing only on your posture. My point is that if a pianist is stuck on trying to get their back straight, hands in the exact good position and this is their main focus all the time then yes, other related abilities will suffer.
Also, piano isn't a sport.
I didn't say you didn't study with a good teacher. I said a good teacher who teaches these kinds of things. Big difference. Leon fleisher was a great teacher in many regards but did not teach any of this stuff. Anyways the point still stands. I don't believe that anyone who has seriously studied this kind of stuff would say what you're saying. Biomechanics is equally important In any highly complicated physical skill. Piano is no different.
Just something for you to think about: How would you define piano competitions? If a piano competition is not a sport then what is it?
Anyways, if you don't find these concepts helpful that means that you are one of the few people who naturally developed technique without having this kind of instruction. That's great news! Because many of us struggle with tension and injury and need this kind of instruction in order to sort out our technique. Those are the people that these videos are for not the few people who play very well on their own with no technical instruction.
@@PIANO_LAB I find your concepts often helpful and think you're definitely one of the more/most informed technique teachers on here, my message probably came off as very negative because of my doubtful social skills. As for a teacher, I have literally been studying/following a physiological research based approach to relieving injuries for pianists for the past 3 years. (and my teachers before that weren't particularly terrible) Again, I never said that biomechanics are not equally important.
Piano competitions are considered a sport yes, and I believe the pianists who really buy into that have less chance of winning than weird freaks of nature like Pogorelich or recently this Yunchan Lim (who does have somewhat decent posture for a competition player, ironically enough.) And even then, a lot of the competition pianists that are doing well play with horrible posture and mechanics and will probably be injured soon enough, which is very sad. But to say that everything they've been doing up to now has been useless because of the implication that their muscle memory wouldn't be applicable if they adjust to a good posture seems silly, there is still an art side and conceptual side to piano playing.
Again, my only point was that practicing strictly biomechanics is not enough and that there is a balance to practicing pure musically with external focus and more physically with internal focus. And I do think it is important to connect the two and that that takes insanely a lot of time.
@@PIANO_LAB to add to this boring monologue I was giving you (my apologies) - the more I studied injury-free technique which helped my pianistic level immensely, the more I actually have been doubting the kind of fast-track studying which focuses purely on efficience, pure stability and frankly the ability to sight-read it. I believe more and more in taking a lot of time for music rather than trying to make it work fast, basically.
This reminded me I haven’t practiced in a while🤦🏼♀️
haha me too!
Maybe, maybe not.
Do people have even 3 versions of a passage? When you play something, you're going to find fingerlings you're most comfortable and keep repeating the same. If you play a wrong note, it's more likely you keep repeating the mistake than playing the right note some of the time.
People who come up with 3 versions of something don"t know which is right. Those who keep repeating the the same way even when they're wrong are certain they're right.
Seriously disagree
I'd love to hear why!