While I appreciate Dr Erhman's scholarship, I wouldn't compare a Christian like John to an atheist who giggles when talking about overestimates of martyrdom. Dr Erhman's definition of Christianity is bibliolatry. Maybe if he gets over not having a perfect book to reference and a sky father to wipe up for him, he'll understand the real mystical forces within us.
@@alwilliams5177I think probably the vast majority of Christians in America believe in biblical inerrancy. I actually have a hard time understanding how John or anyone else can be a believer if the Christian religion while having all this modern scholarly knowledge . Theres a lot of parts of the bible where if you know it's not historically true then it kinda breaks the logic of the rest of it. Like for example without Adam and eve the concept of original sin is totally bunk
@@Will-xf3qe that majority can't spell "inerrancy." They're just parroting a preacher. They worship a 17th century translation. Many turn into fundie atheist if they read it. Thing is we share material reality and have used it to create a shared narrative that has developed over almost 2000 to give of a rich source for exploring or own spirituality. I don't believe in the Bible or the Christian religion. I do believe in Christ Jesus God's son. Spiritual experience depends on the individual mind and imagination, it isn't shared the way material reality is. You can have a 21rst century materialist worldview and be a Christian. I really think we aren't as rare as you supposed. We just aren't materialist reductionist. That does require atheism and a large degree of hubris. I'm just speaking for myself. Your millage may vary.
Yes, you heard this right. Imagine that, a group of people that didn't follow Brigham Young westward but rather stayed in central and eastern America to form what is now called Community of Christ. BTW....they don't insist you believe anything, isn't that refreshing?
@@11JohnBooker22 Sounds like The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter-day Saints, that tells you to study things for yourself to gain your own testimony. And even encourage members to learn about other's religions. Not to attack, but to understand.
Basically the theology of Community of Christ is that any revelation to their prophets before 1958 is man-made nonsense based on American cultural prejudices and should be taught against, while anything written by their prophets after 1958 is essentially infallible and you get excommunicated for teaching against it.
Actually when it came to Nephi killing Laban, Joseph Smith was channeling the future prophet Spock's "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few"
I just found you, John, a week or so ago and I've been working my way through your Centre Place videos. Thank you so much for your work. You have changed many of my PoVs for the better (of course, again, from my PoV.) ; )
I often wonder how things would have played out had Joseph Smith been a Catholic originally. The historical Joseph Smith had no idea of the existence of the Catholic apocrypha (not the deuterocanon). Books like the Protoevangelium of James, the Shepherd of Hermas, the Epistle of Barnabas, or the Clementine literature would have taken young Joseph to interesting places.
32:00 Wordprinting: I want to reiterate John's argument about the issues in wordprinting analyses. Th problem is that a lot of "scientists" involved in Book of Mormon studies are biased towards one side, either trying to prove or to disprove the book. Thus, they will fudge the parameters in such a way to obtain the desired outcome. There is nothing wrong with an unbiased scientist developing a generic Wordprint model and then applying it to the Book of Mormon. An interesting outcome is the three voice model, distinguishing the sermons, the narrative voice and a late voice which develops over time. It implies that the different prophets have different wordprints because they differ in the proportion of sermons vs. narrative.
"Prophets were not dictaphones" - I love this. Totally stealing it (though I might go with "tape recorders"). On the other hand, prophets were also not camcorders!
Excellent presentation, I really enjoyed it. Do you mind sharing your sources? I've been trying to make headway in this sort of research myself but want to make sure to use academic scholarship and avoid polemics/apologetics as much as possible.
I'm LDS, and why do you think we refuse to believe this? It seems to me that if the book still has valuable lessons, why do we have a hard time accepting this?
I had a very in-depth dream while reading the BOM and was at the same time reading a historical fiction in my dream I was there where the plates were found and I talked to Smith about not staying in any place but West bound away from the evil in the east. And he told me that he knew he wasn't going to live to be an old man. And not to worry.
I’d like to have that same kind of dream. And ask Joseph why he tried to seduce my great aunt, and after having been rejected by her, spread pernicious lies about her in Nauvoo and caused chaos in her marriage and life?
I truly respect and think this guy has done something brilliant here. This subject demands a certain touch if one wishes to educate people and learn any sort of lesson from the topic.
Interesting theory but doesn't explain things like chiasmus, word proofs a mathematical formula to determine the probability that a text was written by same or different people. Used in court to prove sources like Shakespeare's the writers the Constitution. When used on the book of Mormon was found it was not written by Joseph Smith, Oliver cowdery, Sydney rigdon, Spalding and others. One day I was treating a patient he asked me a strange question are you a Mormon I said yes I am. He said I have read the book of Mormon and studied it, he had three PhDs in Semitic languages from Oxford University. He had worked on the Dead Sea scroll and many other early manuscripts. You said I can tell you this that book is inspired by God it is impossible for Joseph Smith or any contemporary writer at the time to have written it. He told me he would be a Mormon too if it weren't for the fact that he was a Messianic Jew. He told me many other interesting facts about the book of Mormon and other scriptures such as the inspired version of the Bible which he had studiedl. Have you ever heard of the Los lunas stones ten commandments written in Hebrew on petroglyphs in New Mexico with native American petroglyphs written over them after they were written. Dated over 1500 years old. Book of Mormon said there was horses. Ever heard of the Raven sight archaeological dig in Arizona with large horses the size of Clydesdales dated by archaeologists and carbonated over a thousand years before the earliest conquistadors. I suggest you listen to a lecture by Wayne May you may come away with a new appreciation of the book of Mormon. Your theories are interesting but very simplistic. But nonetheless I like listening to your lectures I don't necessarily agree with them but they are interesting. Dr. Roy Wilkins
Well Joseph Smith’s inspired version of the Bible was found to be plagiarized not too long ago. So rest assured this man you spoke to wasn’t so smart after all. The BoM was very clearly written by Joseph.
Well Joseph Smith’s inspired version of the Bible was found to be plagiarized not too long ago. So rest assured this man you spoke to wasn’t so smart after all. The BoM was very clearly written by Joseph.
@@mindsamazing9179How do you explain the Isaiah variants in the BofM? Some of them are supported by versions of Isaiah that didn’t exist in English or hadn’t yet been discovered when the BofM was published. If the variants occurred by chance, they are so statistically improbable as to be practically impossible.
@@brianspackman6368 that’s the beauty of it, I don’t need to explain or figure out how he did everything. If I have enough proof to show he was clearly a fraud I don’t feel any need to go down all the rabbit holes to figure out every little detail. If you’re claiming I need to solve every Joseph Smith mystery before I am allowed to accept him as a fraud I genuinely believe you aren’t thinking clearly. If I have video footage of someone inside a bank vault stealing money but I don’t know how they actually broke into the vault does that make them not guilty? Hell no. I might be super curious how they got in and a lot of other details but that literally changes nothing about the fact that they are guilty of stealing money.
The Q&A discussed in detail hallucinogens, but you omitted discussing typhoid. A lot of the religious sentiment was triggered by near death situations of typhoid, including heavy fevers. Another example of typhoid "making a prophetess" is Jemima Wilkinson. It might not directly relate to visions, but maybe it does.
The Book of Mormon has never been proven by historians or archeologist, not one artifact has been found, there were many people in the Book of Mormon, but not a coin, bone, sword, utensils, nothing has been found.
You're over 150 years behind on your assessment of historical and archeological evidence. Lots have been found, some dismissed outright, because it contradicts the official theories for the Americas. Do at least a little research please, before commenting.
Why do you use anachronisms? There is no 'the septuagint'. There are many ad hoc translations of many Hebrew stories into many Greek translations. Are referring to all of those or just some -- which ones?
There is a Septuagint, but it was only the Torah, not the rest of the Hebrew bible. And you are correct, there were various Greek translations of the Hebrew bible but not a single corpus.
@@KendraAndTheLaw Hello Kendra, How do you justify thinking there is "a" - one - septuagint? What person or body of people decided which translations of stories constituted this one septuagint? When was this done? If those questions cannot be answered, then how would anyone justify thinking there is one septuagint? It seems that there are many septuagints, many Judaic torahs, many Israelite torahs, and many christian bibles. Which are authoritative depends on different persons' different opinions. Most simplifications of this reality seem to be the result of wanting to believe in religionist mythology.
The authenticity of the Book of Mormon lies in the character of the man who brought it into the world, Joseph Smith. Is he of a character to put your faith in or is the work something that should be examined with suspicion and skepticism?
@@mommalove3733 You make a good point. Would you trust someone who healed others and brought salvation to the world or someone who scammed others for sex, money, and power?
@@HistoryandReviews Very surprising you say that when you claim to be an historian. There are non Jewish and non Christian texts that refer to Jesus that were written contemporaneous to that period speaking of Jesus, his followers, and the Christian movement. There were Christians tortured and murdered by the Romans, many of those Christians were direct disciples of Christ who listened to and directly spoke to Jesus. You may have a problem with Jesus' deity. You can't deny his existence just cause your life would be more convenient. It would be like denying Ann Frank existed and her diary was a forgery. Those who would deny Ann Frank's existence are the same ones who would deny the Holocaust.
I will point out the pink Mammoth in your analogy, he was able to memorize The Book Of Mormon story, with it's jumping back and forth in time, yet couldn't remember basic details in the nine versions of the First Vision, including one where he got his age wrong by two years? Go back to square one, for you can't have his memory be exceptional and poor at the same time.
@@gordianknot9595 You are forgetting that he would have to be remembering sections longer than any of the accounts of his first vision, and would need more than just a quick look to keep strait all the details, many of which span more than half the book. All while not just using Hebrew writing styles, using ancient Hebrew writing styles, some of which weren't discovered until after his death, when he didn't even speak Hebrew. And not only did he use ancient Hebrew styles, he first wrote it in a outdated and no longer used form of english, a form only used from the 1400s to about 1550 A.D. Several years after The Book Of Mormon was published, Joseph Smith Jr. Updated the language to the King James form of english. With all that has been proven to be accurate, it would have taken an act of God for him to have written a book that not only has never been shown to have been inaccurate, but one by one the things said not to exist when and where The Book Of Mormon says, according to the "experts", most have been revealed to exist when and where stated in The Book Of Mormon, very few remaining unproven. So not only did Joseph Smith Jr. know more about the world during biblical times than any in his day, with more things being revealed, it shows Joseph Smith Jr. knew more than all the experts now combined, which would also require the help of God. Besides , Emma wasn't the only person who said he never used any other sources than the Golden Plates and never had to ask where they stopped. Your Pink Mammoth is looking imaginary to me.
@@gordianknot9595 Actually it means submerged crocodile in Yucatan Mayan. And the crocodile was a symbol for the Pharaoh, as first shown in The Book Of Abraham, and later verified in other Egyptian papyri. Lamanai is the spanish spelling, since it was discovered by a spanish man in 916. But it is one of very few cities in the Americas for which the original name is known. The Mayan and Egyptians both built large pyramids in which important individuals were buried, both used picture sound spelling glyphs, both use a special glyph to denote royalty, both use depictions of rulers sitting on throne with slaves or captives in front of them, usually, if not always, with darker skin being used for lower status. And many of the Mayan words for metals are ancient Semitic words for those same metals. But as you say, "no similarities." They have found horses that date to the right time period and on at least one island in North America has been discovered to have ancient sheep remains on it. In fact only 34 out of over 200 of the things mentioned in The Book Of Mormon, that according to the experts didn't exist where and when stated, have yet to be proven. If anything else had statistics like that, it would have already been declared fact.
@@gordianknot9595 It is clear you don't know anything about The Book Of Mormon or even the Bible, or you wouldn't have made such an uneducated comment. Israel had constant contact with Egypt and their culture, and even Abraham lived in Egypt for awhile. The Hebrews alphabet is developed from modified Egyptian characters, not just the Hebrew alphabet used today, which is modified Aramaic based on Egyptian characters, but the true Hebrew alphabet as well. But, though both these Hebraic alphabets were based on Egyptian characters, they aren't even the same kind of alphabet. There are three kinds of alphabets. The most common today is letters = sounds, then there are alphabets where each word has its own character, more than one character for some words, the last and rarest kind of alphabet is a combination of the other two, with characters representing sounds and others representing whole words, Egyptian and Mayan are the best known and widest used examples of this third type. And both Egyptian and Mayan have another feature that isn't found in any other cultures, for all cultures have words for royalty, as you ignorantly pointed out, but both Egyptian and Mayan have something else more like brackets or underlining, except only used to denote divine royalty (Priest/God Kings). They are called Cartouches. Sure there are pyramid like structures in many places on earth, but few are used as burials for leaders. And only Egyptian and Mayan pyramids have pictures on the walls depicting events of Priest/God Kings. And the Mayan paintings started out in profile format, like the Egyptian paintings, the Mayans progressed to a more naturalistic form, like the Minoans and Greeks. So as I said, Egyptian and Mayan cultures are almost identical, and rather different from all other cultures, though Mayan also has aspects of Isrealite culture and practices. The first Catholic Priests to the Mayan people figured they must be Jews that were Christianized at some time before Columbus, as Father Joseph wrote in his journal, before he declared all Mayans hieratics and burned all their writing's he could get his hands on. That is why only a few Mayan books still exist today, half of those written after the arrival of Cortez. The Mayan even practiced baptism, and believed it essential to go to Heaven, though their age and methods varied from tribe to tribe. Some baptized infants, others not until around eight years old, some believing full immersion was necessary, others only required sprinkling water. But the Catholic Church came in and forced conversion, putting an end to the variations.
@@gordianknot9595 As for the "No metallurgy in Mesoamerica." That is the height of stupidity. They had copper metallurgy in North America by 7,000 B.C.E. and metallurgy in the Andes by at least 2,000 B.C.E. Yet somehow the most advanced civilization in the Americas, that traded heavily with all these other cultures, didn't have metallurgy before 800 A.D.? Either someone is intentionally covering up those discoveries, or the naturally inhospitable climate that turned the railroad tracks laid down 100 years ago to nothing but rust stains in the jungle, also destroyed everything older, or a combination of both. The point is that you have no argument here, unless your argument is how stupid you can make yourself look.
32:20 people watching I want to add that data models and tools are not just arbitrary, they can be built off of existing data and improved and tested. Its not historic proof per se 100%, just like history in document form might not be 100%. But I have to stand up for my CS buddies in data science, and say that it can be a useful tool in some situations.
when i lived in the high rockies the valley had odd physics. rainbows appeared to touch the ground. my 8 year old daughter saw this and said daddy daddy lets dig for the gold. so i went out with her and we dug several holes. we didn't find anything but we had a lot of laughs
You referred to Gordon Hinckley's saying in the Time interview that he did not know about the Man becoming God doctrine and then went to a General Conference and admitted that he did. Which talk in General Conference was that , please?
These lectures are fantastic. Love this channel! But you're wrong about the number hurricanes increasing. A 2018 study found no significant trends in landfalling hurricane frequency nor intensity for the continental United States since 1900.
the BOM is using the full Isaiah text, stating that your idea of the 6th-century addition is wrong. The same goes for Jesus quoting from the Septuaginta. The Greek translation of the Gospels is quoting a reliable source of their time. It was difficult to find good texts when the scrolls were scattered around in Jesus' time. BTW the gospels were written much earlier than you claim. The earliest manuscript is from the thirties or forties, so it is clear that the texts were available early in the early Church's time, that also goes for Paul's writing of Galatians and the book of James (Jacobus). All of it existed before the Apostle convent in the year 49-50.
Thx for explaining how the 8 witnesses could have said everything they did without actually seeing the plates. As a past member of the LDS church for 33 yrs and raising kids in the church I'd say most members believe the Book of Mormon has many important Gospel and life lessons. The LDS prophets encourage daily study of the Book of Mormon.
That isn't a theory. That was actually the opinion of Joseph Smith's own family. They didn't call it science fiction back then, of course, but some of them left memoirs and interviews confirming that Joseph used to tell early versions of the story where things were less religious. The whole Kolob thing used to be far more elaborate than what we have now. Mormon apologists usually quote Jesus' statement on his family when explaining those memoirs.
@@andrewsuryali8540 It sure is odd that all of his family members, who were still alive, left their well established religions to join his, and remained members until their deaths. Even through deaths threats, poverty and theft or destruction of property.
@@bartonbagnes4605 But that's my point. Those same family members who left testimonials about Joseph's sci-fi writer phase didn't find anything wrong with it. It's the modern Mormons who do, and in their effort to defend their prophet they deliberately smeared the reputations of ACTUAL RELATIVES OF JOSEPH SMITH who stuck around through thick and thin. It's basically the same as how Paul and Mark besmirched the brothers and direct disciples of Jesus.
Some obvious mistakes you made. Chiamism isn't a Greek poetry style, even though it was named after the name of the Greek letter X, because of the patern made when you map out the associated words, it's Hebraic, and is very rare outside of religious texts and Biblical times. And was not formally identified until the 1920s, especially in America. You and all others have failed to come up with a reasonable explanation as to how Joseph Smith Jr. imagined the city of Nahom, that was later found to be a real place on ancient maps, and correctly discribed the tiny island of green due East, that was too small to appear on any map. And even with Google Earth requires someone to zoom way in. Or how he knew about the ancient city of Lehi, and the local oral tradition of a rich man who prophcisied the destruction of Jerusalem, and disappeared with his family just before it was distroyed. You fail to explain how he imagined records being kept on metal books, which have since been discovered to have been done back then, even a gold book dating to 300 B.C.E. Some treasure hunter he was, with his ability to guess correctly, he would have cleaned house at any gambling hall, yet chose not to. Weird. He had no desire for money, power or sex, he was never charged with adultery, which was still a crime that was enforced back then. And they were charging Joseph with any crime they thought they had a chance to convict him on, all to no avail. And every living member of his family left their well established churches to jion his, and never left, even after Joseph's death, and when all they got was loss of property, verbal and physical attacks and the Holy Spirit. And then there's the Native American legends and practices, legends of a Jesus Christ like character, as described in the book He Walked The Americas by E. Taylor Hansen, an early 1900s archeologist and author, both science and science fiction, with an easy distinction between the two. And so much more historical and archeological evidence, too much to name here. So Joseph Smith Jr. was either the smartest man ever to live, which would have to be God given, or he really did find an ancient record and translated it, which had to be God given.
Hmmm. Two unlikely marriage partners: "Lying for the Lord" and "Thou shalt not lie" . How capricious is humankind in our efforts to promote the agenda of our "truths", both in and out of religious contexts. Aaaaaanyway... thank you so much for bringing history alive as well as sharing your insights into a religious belief that I haven't been exposed to in any great depth up until... you. Truly, you are a STAR. :-)
It was actually easier for ancient people to cut and move a single 20 ton rock than to make 20 one ton rocks. Just think of the actual difference in surface area with all the extra sides that would have had to have been cut. {:-:-:}
The stones magnetic fields have been measured alot since the tools where invented too. The pyramid is concrete poured block. The ancient secrets of cement have been lost. No kidding at all. Including underwater poured cements. It wasnt until the 18th century that the metric system was rediscovered (one millimeter equals the width of a drop of water anywhere on the planet).
@@rogerwilco8146 *_"one millimeter equals the width of a drop of water anywhere on the planet"_* I saw that garbage video as well. The diameter of a "drop" of water depends on the size of the pipette used. And how did they measure 10 in a row without them coalescing? You'll have noticed that that video used drawings of water drops in a row, not real water. The Romans use concrete and cement, and there is overwhelming evidence for it. There is no evidence that the Egyptians used it, or knew how to make it, nor that they could make gigantic magnifying glasses to melt granite. {:-:-:} _(Edited for tyops)_
@@ansfridaeyowulfsdottir8095 i misspelled something. what does that prove excpectr i dont edit my comments for on youtube for spelling. why would you do ten in a row? its just one drop. check it out its true.. look it all up first.
@@rogerwilco8146 *_"i misspelled something."_* Did you? I didn't notice. Although you failed to capitalise "I" just there. Why is it that all Conspiritards have appalling spelling, atrocious grammar and deplorable punctuation? I am a retired molecular biologist, you don't need to tell me any BS about the alleged diamater of _"a drop of water",_ I can assure you that it varies with volume and the size of the pipette. Or the thickness of whatever reed they used to make their drops, and also how deeply they dipped the reed into their water pot. I have measured amounts of a few microlitres, and those drops are nowhere near 1 mm in diameter. More like far, far less than a millimeter. Again, if you watch that utter garbage video, they never show you 10 drops next to each other, they show you a drawing of 10 drops. The reason being is that if 10 drops are right next to each in a row and touch, the surface tension will break and they will coalesce into a blob. And that is quite apart from them not being able to form drops of the same diameter in the first place. Grow up and get some real education. {:-:-:} _(Edited for tyops)_
It takes a scholar to proove the book of mormon is bogus? How about just ask anyone with common sense and let the scholars concentrate on proving the bible is bogus instead.
I agree with you. Writing out or dictating a book this long in the given time frame isn't really in question, that's just how long it took. There's no claim of miraculous speed given to it's translation. The complexity of the task is in the content of the book. Beyond the characters and narrative contained in the book, there are unique and simply complex doctrines/ideas that are beyond looking at the book in a strictly historical context. In several instances I find this video to over simplify what is really contained in the book. Including many historical contexts of book of Mormon claims that have received archeological evidence only after the book was published. Interesting video but it's incomplete in presenting the full complexity.
@@HistoryandReviews If a swindler as you claim, then he must be the best one to have ever walked the earth. The membership of the Church of Jesus Christ of Ladder-day Saints is over 16 million. And all this almost 180 years after he was killed. I'm not trying to change your opinion on the subject, but I personally am very confident that he was a prophet.
@@thecoletrain3187 read his entire history written by people that knew him! Not the biased book of Mormon. He claimed to know many languages including coptic, he did not know coptic. He would send his followers on missions and then sleep with their wives and unde rage daughters! He was in it all for the power, sex, and money.
Yes? But can you write it in an ancient form of a language that was no longer spoken outside of religious services for a single religion? Hebrew was until recently, in all intents and purposes a dead language, like Latin. Oh and you also have to include real places and practices that haven't been discovered yet. And you have to have the characters come from one place to another, where it is discovered after you write this book, that the people living in that area have ancient practices of the place your people came from and similar stories to those in your book, including a legend that a sacred book was taken and buried in a hill, like the Mayan legend in the Borgia Codex (written in Mayan) about the sacred book called Teoamoxtli.
@@Nothingnothing1111 A distinction between Brass(Copper mixed with Zinc) and Bronze(Copper mixed with Tin) wasn't made until the 1700s A.D. But we know they were writing on Bronze Plates at least as early as the 700s B.C.E., and other metals about 2,000 years earlier. So the existence of Brass Plates is not only likely, it's all but confirmed. Plus I have seen and heard reports of people who saw chambers with writings on metal, skins and other materials all over the Americas. One I saw was on a show on the Discovery Channel or History Channel, I forget which, about the legend of El Dorado. On this show a man said he was led into a cave in the mountains near a village, and after going past a part you practically had to swim he came to a large chamber, not filled with treasures of Gold and Silver, but with treasures of writings. History far more valuable, rare and fragile than riches. Others from books or other shows, tell of men who end up lost in the jungle, usually when a plane crashes, and find ruins of a temple or city. When they go inside they find writings on Gold and other materials, but after they get out of the jungle and try to find them again, they can't. In one case the man tried to recruit locals to help him, but was told "Oh no, the time is not yet." These reports came from people who had no connection to The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter-day Saints, and possibly had never even heard of such a church. One of the books was Ancient Mysteries And Lost Cities In South And Central America by David Hatcher Childress, a rogue archeologist, who subscribed to the Atlantis, Lamuria and Mu legends, but not Aliens. He had no problem with people coming to the Americas by boats, and believed many groups from all over the world had done so before Columbus, including those mentioned in The Book Of Mormon. Though it was clear he had never read it, since he made no connection to other things that eched things mentioned in The Book Of Mormon. But he had no problem with it being an historical account. David definitely had no agenda for or against any religion. Though I have only read a couple of his books, they are at the least entertaining, if not eye opening.
"Writing the Book of Mormon required neither a conspiracy nor supernatural intervention" well since the claims are that god, jesus, and angels directed the writings of the BoM ... it absolutely required "supernatural intervention."
All religion regardless of its origin is an aggregate of, lack of understanding of the physical universe, mans ignorance, avarice and ego and pure unadulterated bullshit. However our insatiable need to find out where we came from, why we are here and where we are going is the moat beautiful and important mystery we can never figure out. Each piece of the puzzle is worth examination for the fact that it gives us insight on what others see or have seen as god and they give us a window into different times and different cultures all of which are threads in the beautiful tapestry that is the soul of man. I think that anyone who dives deep enough and opens their mind and heart will eventually see that while every single philosophy came about due to us craving that gnosis we have all heard tell of. If people would see that most of it is metaphor, allegory, botched translation, speculation on for lack of proof or down right lies set forth by greedy dicks for personal gain and sometimes just the ravings of lunatics( Mormonism is entirely comprised of the last two any way if people are Intelligent and do research and think logically and critically they will find that its super easy and that "God" is not some anthropomorphic bearded daddy figure in the sky or anything we can name qualify quantify or ever understand but it is in each of us in every molecule every atom every electron quark muon gluon lepton neutrino and frikin boobino farino in the universe and all the things we say god has done or can do is even more beautiful without him because we did it ourselves we made it ourselves we live it ourselves. God will be the best part of this place once we fuckin kill the god our forefathers contrived and be the gods we all truly are. Mormons are definitely right up there with the most insane of all religions tho we wouldnt lose any precious meaningful beautiful part of history if we scratched them off the record.
@@CSHorn Yet the Bible contains scientific facts that weren't discovered by man until the last 200 years or so, in the case of ocean currents by using the Bible. Not to mention all the Prophecies that have been fulfilled. Like the rise, split and then breaking of the Roman Empire into small kingdoms, over five hundred through a thousand years before it happened. How could man create that?
@@bartonbagnes4605 Like the rise, split and then breaking of the Roman Empire into small kingdoms, over five hundred through a thousand years before it happened" Where in the Bible is this prophecy?
"Mormon apologists argue that the composition of the Book of Mormon requires supernatural intervention to explain. However, the scholarly consensus is that no extraordinary explanations are necessary." ... perhaps not necessary ... but also irrelevant ... because it does not change whether the book is true or not.
@@gordianknot9595 since scholarship cannot prove is not historical, that is not relevant. theology changes ... it always has ... study history. the quote is "line upon line, precept upon precept." true means true. but it does not mean complete.
@@gordianknot9595 "scholarship can prove it’s not historical though as much as anything can be proven." nonsense. first ... you cannot prove a negative ... so, no, you cannot prove it is not historical. second ... close to twenty people saw and handled the plates smith had. they have all sworn again and again they saw and handled them. even the people who left the church, or were excommunicated from the church, who saw and handled them continued to swear to their dying day, that they saw and handled them. third ... "scholarship" does the exact opposite of what you claim. more and more proof of the claims of the BoM surface. it is just as provable as the bible is ... perhaps even more.
I'm a former member of Community of Christ and no longer believe the Book of Mormon to be a divine work. And your portrayal of Joseph Smith as an amoral ends-justify-the-means character is pretty much the conclusion that i reached myself. But what baffles me about Community of Christ is that you have prophets since 1958 whose revelations are revered, and if you dispute their authority you get silenced or excommunicated. It seems like pure hypocrisy of the worst sort to say you can believe the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith's understanding of the church are culturally conditioned nonsense, but you must not believe that Section 156 and Wallace B. Smith's understanding of the church are also culturally conditioned nonsense. Other than out of a lust for power, i don't understand why the liberal RLDS leaders didn't just leave the church and let the conservatives who believed in the Book of Mormon and all that stuff continue to perpetuate it. I actually agree theologically with the leadership of Community of Christ on a lot of issues but their authoritarian treatment of people whose only fault was to uphold what the church had taught for over a century is very difficult for me to forgive let alone sympathize with.
Unlike the Book of Mormon s, the Qur'an was channeled through meditations. This is common even today. Listen to Abraham -Hicks channeling it's almost impeccable.
Google Mormon doctrine vs Christian doctrine. You'll see the LDS have scripture together better than the other churches. This is proof that LDS scripture is from above.
i dunno this sounds a lot like some one that doesn't like the book of Mormon , even Christ says ask and you shall receive .? maybe. any way what mite be interesting is the book of Mormon has the 3 witness and the 8 witnesses a Unique idea can you talk about this these in-depth perhaps in a favorable light or at lest both side . i have a lot i could question about your UA-cam above i think for the most part a fair assessment and a attempt at defusing some of the built up of opinions , though faith demands a sacrifice often its the very proofing that all want to have the jist is read pray and ask God if its true you mentioned Pratt there is a good account about him doing so ,i mean clicks are good but do the flip and bring the light from within the book a Mormon you mite even triple the clicks i mean if its so fraudulent every church has right and wrong in its foundation , almost like its some guys opinion and the purpose of religion as i understand is to come unto Christ all the Mormons seem to want to add is ; "look" Christ came here also . just asking for less bias even if your still of the thought it ain't for me there our literally millions that have knelt and did this very act walking in faith
@@HistoryandReviews well not convinced the issue is you believe it so intrinsically you make it real but it hasn't any thing to do with the truth of it stop hating so much it serves you not your headed down a path you can't make right when you discover the error of your way , stop pointing the finger or God will point it bACK AT YOU
@@pitelf3852 Joseph was a swindler. He would send his male followers off on “missions” and then sleep with their wives and daughters. This has been documented. He also could not read Egyptian as he claimed he could because when they showed him tablets he made up everything, and when they tried to read what it actually said he ran away on his carriage
@@HistoryandReviews well one persons mission is another malfeces , get a group that has a type of narrative that gains popularity that narrative gains a life of its own with nothing to do with the truth only error , nice and easy to damn a guy when he isn't there to set the account straight let not play pile on moves you to an area like we have now with dem and repubs yet different rules , day of accounting should be fun
The Book of Mormon is the actual history of Ethiopia. It documents Ethiopian Jews that escaped Jerusalem and settled in Ethiopia. The book was most likely compiled (abridged) in the 13th century AD and discovered by European explorers in the 17th century when Ethiopia was explored.
It was men that decided to use the true history of Ethiopian Jews to convert the Native American Indian, not Jesus. The Book of Mormon is a parable for America. It is true but it is clearly not the true history of America. Why did God tell Joseph Smith to take a teenage wife and lie to Emma about it? Why did God tell little children they could not be baptizes if their mom or dad was gay? Men did these things, not Jesus, not God. @@charlesmendeley9823
This man is as watchable and as listenable, as Bart Ehrman or Dale Martin. Facinating.
I have the same thought
I find him more compelling and more diverse
While I appreciate Dr Erhman's scholarship, I wouldn't compare a Christian like John to an atheist who giggles when talking about overestimates of martyrdom. Dr Erhman's definition of Christianity is bibliolatry. Maybe if he gets over not having a perfect book to reference and a sky father to wipe up for him, he'll understand the real mystical forces within us.
@@alwilliams5177I think probably the vast majority of Christians in America believe in biblical inerrancy. I actually have a hard time understanding how John or anyone else can be a believer if the Christian religion while having all this modern scholarly knowledge . Theres a lot of parts of the bible where if you know it's not historically true then it kinda breaks the logic of the rest of it. Like for example without Adam and eve the concept of original sin is totally bunk
@@Will-xf3qe that majority can't spell "inerrancy." They're just parroting a preacher. They worship a 17th century translation. Many turn into fundie atheist if they read it. Thing is we share material reality and have used it to create a shared narrative that has developed over almost 2000 to give of a rich source for exploring or own spirituality. I don't believe in the Bible or the Christian religion. I do believe in Christ Jesus God's son. Spiritual experience depends on the individual mind and imagination, it isn't shared the way material reality is. You can have a 21rst century materialist worldview and be a Christian. I really think we aren't as rare as you supposed. We just aren't materialist reductionist. That does require atheism and a large degree of hubris. I'm just speaking for myself. Your millage may vary.
Thanks!
wait a second, do I get this right? This man belongs to a branch of mormonism but doesnt believe in the official version of the BoM?
Yes, you heard this right. Imagine that, a group of people that didn't follow Brigham Young westward but rather stayed in central and eastern America to form what is now called Community of Christ. BTW....they don't insist you believe anything, isn't that refreshing?
@@11JohnBooker22 CoC
@@11JohnBooker22 Sounds like The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter-day Saints, that tells you to study things for yourself to gain your own testimony. And even encourage members to learn about other's religions. Not to attack, but to understand.
Basically the theology of Community of Christ is that any revelation to their prophets before 1958 is man-made nonsense based on American cultural prejudices and should be taught against, while anything written by their prophets after 1958 is essentially infallible and you get excommunicated for teaching against it.
Thank you John for providing such an honest, informative, well written, and engaging presentation regarding the Book of Mormon.
Actually when it came to Nephi killing Laban, Joseph Smith was channeling the future prophet Spock's "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few"
You mean all 3 are fictional,?
@richarner3856 Of course not! Haven't you seen the documentary TV and movie series, Star Trek? He even meets God! 😅
It is interesting to hear what people in your church think about things; and why they think that way.
I just found you, John, a week or so ago and I've been working my way through your Centre Place videos. Thank you so much for your work. You have changed many of my PoVs for the better (of course, again, from my PoV.) ; )
I often wonder how things would have played out had Joseph Smith been a Catholic originally. The historical Joseph Smith had no idea of the existence of the Catholic apocrypha (not the deuterocanon). Books like the Protoevangelium of James, the Shepherd of Hermas, the Epistle of Barnabas, or the Clementine literature would have taken young Joseph to interesting places.
32:00 Wordprinting: I want to reiterate John's argument about the issues in wordprinting analyses. Th problem is that a lot of "scientists" involved in Book of Mormon studies are biased towards one side, either trying to prove or to disprove the book. Thus, they will fudge the parameters in such a way to obtain the desired outcome. There is nothing wrong with an unbiased scientist developing a generic Wordprint model and then applying it to the Book of Mormon. An interesting outcome is the three voice model, distinguishing the sermons, the narrative voice and a late voice which develops over time. It implies that the different prophets have different wordprints because they differ in the proportion of sermons vs. narrative.
"Prophets were not dictaphones" - I love this. Totally stealing it (though I might go with "tape recorders"). On the other hand, prophets were also not camcorders!
Yeah, this lecture will age poorly. I'm old enough to know what a dictaphone is, but my wife has no idea what John is talking about.
@@andrewsuryali8540but you can now ask AI what it means. 😂
Excellent presentation, I really enjoyed it. Do you mind sharing your sources? I've been trying to make headway in this sort of research myself but want to make sure to use academic scholarship and avoid polemics/apologetics as much as possible.
Thank you for an admirably clear & concise overview.
Really a contribution. Thank you!
I'm just curious... What is Center Place's theological stance on the BoM?
I'm LDS, and why do you think we refuse to believe this? It seems to me that if the book still has valuable lessons, why do we have a hard time accepting this?
I very enjoy watching and listening to your knowledge of religion
I had a very in-depth dream while reading the BOM and was at the same time reading a historical fiction in my dream I was there where the plates were found and I talked to Smith about not staying in any place but West bound away from the evil in the east. And he told me that he knew he wasn't going to live to be an old man. And not to worry.
West side of the USA is demonic. Far east is demonic. What do they have in common? Democrats
I’d like to have that same kind of dream. And ask Joseph why he tried to seduce my great aunt, and after having been rejected by her, spread pernicious lies about her in Nauvoo and caused chaos in her marriage and life?
Thank you so much!
9:15 There's very good scholarship suggesting Luke just copied Matthew but with some minor returns to Mark. Clever discoveries of “editorial fatigue.”
Except the author of the third gospel claims to have read “many accounts “ not just two
35:43 - you’re probably already aware of this, but just a small correction- it does mention Jeremiah in 1 Ne 7:14.
So fascinating thank you!
And at 32:22 I reckon you nailed it - Shakespeare was involved somehow 😉
I truly respect and think this guy has done something brilliant here. This subject demands a certain touch if one wishes to educate people and learn any sort of lesson from the topic.
Interesting theory but doesn't explain things like chiasmus, word proofs a mathematical formula to determine the probability that a text was written by same or different people. Used in court to prove sources like Shakespeare's the writers the Constitution. When used on the book of Mormon was found it was not written by Joseph Smith, Oliver cowdery, Sydney rigdon, Spalding and others. One day I was treating a patient he asked me a strange question are you a Mormon I said yes I am. He said I have read the book of Mormon and studied it, he had three PhDs in Semitic languages from Oxford University. He had worked on the Dead Sea scroll and many other early manuscripts. You said I can tell you this that book is inspired by God it is impossible for Joseph Smith or any contemporary writer at the time to have written it. He told me he would be a Mormon too if it weren't for the fact that he was a Messianic Jew. He told me many other interesting facts about the book of Mormon and other scriptures such as the inspired version of the Bible which he had studiedl. Have you ever heard of the Los lunas stones ten commandments written in Hebrew on petroglyphs in New Mexico with native American petroglyphs written over them after they were written. Dated over 1500 years old. Book of Mormon said there was horses. Ever heard of the Raven sight archaeological dig in Arizona with large horses the size of Clydesdales dated by archaeologists and carbonated over a thousand years before the earliest conquistadors. I suggest you listen to a lecture by Wayne May you may come away with a new appreciation of the book of Mormon. Your theories are interesting but very simplistic. But nonetheless I like listening to your lectures I don't necessarily agree with them but they are interesting. Dr. Roy Wilkins
The Raven 'site' ruins date from 1000 to1400 a.d. according to all the sources I can find, there is nothing about giant horses.
Well Joseph Smith’s inspired version of the Bible was found to be plagiarized not too long ago. So rest assured this man you spoke to wasn’t so smart after all. The BoM was very clearly written by Joseph.
Well Joseph Smith’s inspired version of the Bible was found to be plagiarized not too long ago. So rest assured this man you spoke to wasn’t so smart after all. The BoM was very clearly written by Joseph.
@@mindsamazing9179How do you explain the Isaiah variants in the BofM? Some of them are supported by versions of Isaiah that didn’t exist in English or hadn’t yet been discovered when the BofM was published. If the variants occurred by chance, they are so statistically improbable as to be practically impossible.
@@brianspackman6368 that’s the beauty of it, I don’t need to explain or figure out how he did everything. If I have enough proof to show he was clearly a fraud I don’t feel any need to go down all the rabbit holes to figure out every little detail. If you’re claiming I need to solve every Joseph Smith mystery before I am allowed to accept him as a fraud I genuinely believe you aren’t thinking clearly.
If I have video footage of someone inside a bank vault stealing money but I don’t know how they actually broke into the vault does that make them not guilty? Hell no. I might be super curious how they got in and a lot of other details but that literally changes nothing about the fact that they are guilty of stealing money.
The Q&A discussed in detail hallucinogens, but you omitted discussing typhoid. A lot of the religious sentiment was triggered by near death situations of typhoid, including heavy fevers. Another example of typhoid "making a prophetess" is Jemima Wilkinson. It might not directly relate to visions, but maybe it does.
The Book of Mormon has never been proven by historians or archeologist, not one artifact has been found, there were many people in the Book of Mormon, but not a coin, bone, sword, utensils, nothing has been found.
You're over 150 years behind on your assessment of historical and archeological evidence. Lots have been found, some dismissed outright, because it contradicts the official theories for the Americas. Do at least a little research please, before commenting.
@@bartonbagnes4605 you sure jump to the defense of your idiotic cult like a little boy. It’s laughable
Examples of evidence found?
@@Dipfinder123 The altars of Nahom. Wadi Sayq. The Lehi Stone. just for starters.
@@brianspackman6368 All handily debunked
Why do you use anachronisms?
There is no 'the septuagint'.
There are many ad hoc translations of many Hebrew stories into many Greek translations.
Are referring to all of those or just some -- which ones?
There is a Septuagint, but it was only the Torah, not the rest of the Hebrew bible. And you are correct, there were various Greek translations of the Hebrew bible but not a single corpus.
@@KendraAndTheLaw Hello Kendra,
How do you justify thinking there is "a" - one - septuagint? What person or body of people decided which translations of stories constituted this one septuagint? When was this done?
If those questions cannot be answered, then how would anyone justify thinking there is one septuagint? It seems that there are many septuagints, many Judaic torahs, many Israelite torahs, and many christian bibles. Which are authoritative depends on different persons' different opinions.
Most simplifications of this reality seem to be the result of wanting to believe in religionist mythology.
The authenticity of the Book of Mormon lies in the character of the man who brought it into the world, Joseph Smith. Is he of a character to put your faith in or is the work something that should be examined with suspicion and skepticism?
Skepticism is the only way to approach anything like this. Why would you put blind faith in one person you've never met?
Yes. Like Jesus
@@mommalove3733 You make a good point. Would you trust someone who healed others and brought salvation to the world or someone who scammed others for sex, money, and power?
@@stevelenores5637 Jesus is not real
@@HistoryandReviews Very surprising you say that when you claim to be an historian. There are non Jewish and non Christian texts that refer to Jesus that were written contemporaneous to that period speaking of Jesus, his followers, and the Christian movement. There were Christians tortured and murdered by the Romans, many of those Christians were direct disciples of Christ who listened to and directly spoke to Jesus.
You may have a problem with Jesus' deity. You can't deny his existence just cause your life would be more convenient. It would be like denying Ann Frank existed and her diary was a forgery. Those who would deny Ann Frank's existence are the same ones who would deny the Holocaust.
I will point out the pink Mammoth in your analogy, he was able to memorize The Book Of Mormon story, with it's jumping back and forth in time, yet couldn't remember basic details in the nine versions of the First Vision, including one where he got his age wrong by two years? Go back to square one, for you can't have his memory be exceptional and poor at the same time.
@@gordianknot9595 You are forgetting that he would have to be remembering sections longer than any of the accounts of his first vision, and would need more than just a quick look to keep strait all the details, many of which span more than half the book. All while not just using Hebrew writing styles, using ancient Hebrew writing styles, some of which weren't discovered until after his death, when he didn't even speak Hebrew. And not only did he use ancient Hebrew styles, he first wrote it in a outdated and no longer used form of english, a form only used from the 1400s to about 1550 A.D. Several years after The Book Of Mormon was published, Joseph Smith Jr. Updated the language to the King James form of english. With all that has been proven to be accurate, it would have taken an act of God for him to have written a book that not only has never been shown to have been inaccurate, but one by one the things said not to exist when and where The Book Of Mormon says, according to the "experts", most have been revealed to exist when and where stated in The Book Of Mormon, very few remaining unproven. So not only did Joseph Smith Jr. know more about the world during biblical times than any in his day, with more things being revealed, it shows Joseph Smith Jr. knew more than all the experts now combined, which would also require the help of God. Besides , Emma wasn't the only person who said he never used any other sources than the Golden Plates and never had to ask where they stopped. Your Pink Mammoth is looking imaginary to me.
@@gordianknot9595 Do better research, your lack of information is appalling. You could start by researching the cities of Nahom and Lamanai.
@@gordianknot9595 Actually it means submerged crocodile in Yucatan Mayan. And the crocodile was a symbol for the Pharaoh, as first shown in The Book Of Abraham, and later verified in other Egyptian papyri. Lamanai is the spanish spelling, since it was discovered by a spanish man in 916. But it is one of very few cities in the Americas for which the original name is known. The Mayan and Egyptians both built large pyramids in which important individuals were buried, both used picture sound spelling glyphs, both use a special glyph to denote royalty, both use depictions of rulers sitting on throne with slaves or captives in front of them, usually, if not always, with darker skin being used for lower status. And many of the Mayan words for metals are ancient Semitic words for those same metals. But as you say, "no similarities." They have found horses that date to the right time period and on at least one island in North America has been discovered to have ancient sheep remains on it. In fact only 34 out of over 200 of the things mentioned in The Book Of Mormon, that according to the experts didn't exist where and when stated, have yet to be proven. If anything else had statistics like that, it would have already been declared fact.
@@gordianknot9595 It is clear you don't know anything about The Book Of Mormon or even the Bible, or you wouldn't have made such an uneducated comment. Israel had constant contact with Egypt and their culture, and even Abraham lived in Egypt for awhile. The Hebrews alphabet is developed from modified Egyptian characters, not just the Hebrew alphabet used today, which is modified Aramaic based on Egyptian characters, but the true Hebrew alphabet as well. But, though both these Hebraic alphabets were based on Egyptian characters, they aren't even the same kind of alphabet. There are three kinds of alphabets. The most common today is letters = sounds, then there are alphabets where each word has its own character, more than one character for some words, the last and rarest kind of alphabet is a combination of the other two, with characters representing sounds and others representing whole words, Egyptian and Mayan are the best known and widest used examples of this third type. And both Egyptian and Mayan have another feature that isn't found in any other cultures, for all cultures have words for royalty, as you ignorantly pointed out, but both Egyptian and Mayan have something else more like brackets or underlining, except only used to denote divine royalty (Priest/God Kings). They are called Cartouches. Sure there are pyramid like structures in many places on earth, but few are used as burials for leaders. And only Egyptian and Mayan pyramids have pictures on the walls depicting events of Priest/God Kings. And the Mayan paintings started out in profile format, like the Egyptian paintings, the Mayans progressed to a more naturalistic form, like the Minoans and Greeks. So as I said, Egyptian and Mayan cultures are almost identical, and rather different from all other cultures, though Mayan also has aspects of Isrealite culture and practices. The first Catholic Priests to the Mayan people figured they must be Jews that were Christianized at some time before Columbus, as Father Joseph wrote in his journal, before he declared all Mayans hieratics and burned all their writing's he could get his hands on. That is why only a few Mayan books still exist today, half of those written after the arrival of Cortez. The Mayan even practiced baptism, and believed it essential to go to Heaven, though their age and methods varied from tribe to tribe. Some baptized infants, others not until around eight years old, some believing full immersion was necessary, others only required sprinkling water. But the Catholic Church came in and forced conversion, putting an end to the variations.
@@gordianknot9595 As for the "No metallurgy in Mesoamerica." That is the height of stupidity. They had copper metallurgy in North America by 7,000 B.C.E. and metallurgy in the Andes by at least 2,000 B.C.E. Yet somehow the most advanced civilization in the Americas, that traded heavily with all these other cultures, didn't have metallurgy before 800 A.D.? Either someone is intentionally covering up those discoveries, or the naturally inhospitable climate that turned the railroad tracks laid down 100 years ago to nothing but rust stains in the jungle, also destroyed everything older, or a combination of both. The point is that you have no argument here, unless your argument is how stupid you can make yourself look.
If the BOM takes place in the America's why is there no mention.of corn the most used vegetable in South and Centeral America
32:20 people watching I want to add that data models and tools are not just arbitrary, they can be built off of existing data and improved and tested. Its not historic proof per se 100%, just like history in document form might not be 100%. But I have to stand up for my CS buddies in data science, and say that it can be a useful tool in some situations.
when i lived in the high rockies the valley had odd physics. rainbows appeared to touch the ground. my 8 year old daughter saw this and said daddy daddy lets dig for the gold. so i went out with her and we dug several holes. we didn't find anything but we had a lot of laughs
You referred to Gordon Hinckley's saying in the Time interview that he did not know about the Man becoming God doctrine and then went to a General Conference and admitted that he did. Which talk in General Conference was that , please?
"Drawing nearer to the Lord", October 1997.
These lectures are fantastic. Love this channel! But you're wrong about the number hurricanes increasing. A 2018 study found no significant trends in landfalling hurricane frequency nor intensity for the continental United States since 1900.
Well done.
the BOM is using the full Isaiah text, stating that your idea of the 6th-century addition is wrong. The same goes for Jesus quoting from the Septuaginta. The Greek translation of the Gospels is quoting a reliable source of their time. It was difficult to find good texts when the scrolls were scattered around in Jesus' time. BTW the gospels were written much earlier than you claim. The earliest manuscript is from the thirties or forties, so it is clear that the texts were available early in the early Church's time, that also goes for Paul's writing of Galatians and the book of James (Jacobus). All of it existed before the Apostle convent in the year 49-50.
"The earliest manuscript is from the thirties or forties" Which manuscript?
Simplicity is not threatening and allows for critical thinking..
According to DNA Haplogroup X did exist in the America's. And was found in mound builder sites. I'm Agnostic, but need to point this out.
Thx for explaining how the 8 witnesses could have said everything they did without actually seeing the plates.
As a past member of the LDS church for 33 yrs and raising kids in the church I'd say most members believe the Book of Mormon has many important Gospel and life lessons. The LDS prophets encourage daily study of the Book of Mormon.
Your comment about Hurricanes is demonstrably false.
Mormonism… not exactly sure what to say about all that, other than, sus
I was once told of an interesting theory that the Book of Mormon was science-fiction written in KJV English!
That isn't a theory. That was actually the opinion of Joseph Smith's own family. They didn't call it science fiction back then, of course, but some of them left memoirs and interviews confirming that Joseph used to tell early versions of the story where things were less religious. The whole Kolob thing used to be far more elaborate than what we have now.
Mormon apologists usually quote Jesus' statement on his family when explaining those memoirs.
@@andrewsuryali8540 It sure is odd that all of his family members, who were still alive, left their well established religions to join his, and remained members until their deaths. Even through deaths threats, poverty and theft or destruction of property.
@@bartonbagnes4605 But that's my point. Those same family members who left testimonials about Joseph's sci-fi writer phase didn't find anything wrong with it. It's the modern Mormons who do, and in their effort to defend their prophet they deliberately smeared the reputations of ACTUAL RELATIVES OF JOSEPH SMITH who stuck around through thick and thin. It's basically the same as how Paul and Mark besmirched the brothers and direct disciples of Jesus.
Some obvious mistakes you made. Chiamism isn't a Greek poetry style, even though it was named after the name of the Greek letter X, because of the patern made when you map out the associated words, it's Hebraic, and is very rare outside of religious texts and Biblical times. And was not formally identified until the 1920s, especially in America. You and all others have failed to come up with a reasonable explanation as to how Joseph Smith Jr. imagined the city of Nahom, that was later found to be a real place on ancient maps, and correctly discribed the tiny island of green due East, that was too small to appear on any map. And even with Google Earth requires someone to zoom way in. Or how he knew about the ancient city of Lehi, and the local oral tradition of a rich man who prophcisied the destruction of Jerusalem, and disappeared with his family just before it was distroyed. You fail to explain how he imagined records being kept on metal books, which have since been discovered to have been done back then, even a gold book dating to 300 B.C.E. Some treasure hunter he was, with his ability to guess correctly, he would have cleaned house at any gambling hall, yet chose not to. Weird. He had no desire for money, power or sex, he was never charged with adultery, which was still a crime that was enforced back then. And they were charging Joseph with any crime they thought they had a chance to convict him on, all to no avail. And every living member of his family left their well established churches to jion his, and never left, even after Joseph's death, and when all they got was loss of property, verbal and physical attacks and the Holy Spirit. And then there's the Native American legends and practices, legends of a Jesus Christ like character, as described in the book He Walked The Americas by E. Taylor Hansen, an early 1900s archeologist and author, both science and science fiction, with an easy distinction between the two. And so much more historical and archeological evidence, too much to name here. So Joseph Smith Jr. was either the smartest man ever to live, which would have to be God given, or he really did find an ancient record and translated it, which had to be God given.
If There were Isrealites in the the Americas there would be a functioning wheel a 2 1/2 Millenia before it was put into use on the continent.
Hmmm. Two unlikely marriage partners: "Lying for the Lord" and "Thou shalt not lie" . How capricious is humankind in our efforts to promote the agenda of our "truths", both in and out of religious contexts. Aaaaaanyway... thank you so much for bringing history alive as well as sharing your insights into a religious belief that I haven't been exposed to in any great depth up until... you. Truly, you are a STAR. :-)
It was actually easier for ancient people to cut and move a single 20 ton rock than to make 20 one ton rocks. Just think of the actual difference in surface area with all the extra sides that would have had to have been cut.
{:-:-:}
The stones magnetic fields have been measured alot since the tools where invented too. The pyramid is concrete poured block. The ancient secrets of cement have been lost. No kidding at all. Including underwater poured cements. It wasnt until the 18th century that the metric system was rediscovered (one millimeter equals the width of a drop of water anywhere on the planet).
@@rogerwilco8146
*_"one millimeter equals the width of a drop of water anywhere on the planet"_*
I saw that garbage video as well. The diameter of a "drop" of water depends on the size of the pipette used. And how did they measure 10 in a row without them coalescing? You'll have noticed that that video used drawings of water drops in a row, not real water.
The Romans use concrete and cement, and there is overwhelming evidence for it. There is no evidence that the Egyptians used it, or knew how to make it, nor that they could make gigantic magnifying glasses to melt granite.
{:-:-:}
_(Edited for tyops)_
@@ansfridaeyowulfsdottir8095 i misspelled something. what does that prove excpectr i dont edit my comments for on youtube for spelling. why would you do ten in a row? its just one drop. check it out its true.. look it all up first.
@@rogerwilco8146
*_"i misspelled something."_*
Did you? I didn't notice. Although you failed to capitalise "I" just there. Why is it that all Conspiritards have appalling spelling, atrocious grammar and deplorable punctuation?
I am a retired molecular biologist, you don't need to tell me any BS about the alleged diamater of _"a drop of water",_ I can assure you that it varies with volume and the size of the pipette. Or the thickness of whatever reed they used to make their drops, and also how deeply they dipped the reed into their water pot.
I have measured amounts of a few microlitres, and those drops are nowhere near 1 mm in diameter. More like far, far less than a millimeter.
Again, if you watch that utter garbage video, they never show you 10 drops next to each other, they show you a drawing of 10 drops. The reason being is that if 10 drops are right next to each in a row and touch, the surface tension will break and they will coalesce into a blob. And that is quite apart from them not being able to form drops of the same diameter in the first place.
Grow up and get some real education.
{:-:-:}
_(Edited for tyops)_
@@rogerwilco8146 15 errors in that.
It takes a scholar to proove the book of mormon is bogus? How about just ask anyone with common sense and let the scholars concentrate on proving the bible is bogus instead.
I write by hand and could prove with ease that this text could be wrote in said time. Or dictated as it was.
I agree with you. Writing out or dictating a book this long in the given time frame isn't really in question, that's just how long it took. There's no claim of miraculous speed given to it's translation.
The complexity of the task is in the content of the book. Beyond the characters and narrative contained in the book, there are unique and simply complex doctrines/ideas that are beyond looking at the book in a strictly historical context.
In several instances I find this video to over simplify what is really contained in the book. Including many historical contexts of book of Mormon claims that have received archeological evidence only after the book was published.
Interesting video but it's incomplete in presenting the full complexity.
@@thecoletrain3187 It’s a fraud sir . Joseph was a swindler not a prophet
@@HistoryandReviews If a swindler as you claim, then he must be the best one to have ever walked the earth. The membership of the Church of Jesus Christ of Ladder-day Saints is over 16 million. And all this almost 180 years after he was killed.
I'm not trying to change your opinion on the subject, but I personally am very confident that he was a prophet.
@@thecoletrain3187 read his entire history written by people that knew him! Not the biased book of Mormon. He claimed to know many languages including coptic, he did not know coptic. He would send his followers on missions and then sleep with their wives and unde rage daughters!
He was in it all for the power, sex, and money.
Yes? But can you write it in an ancient form of a language that was no longer spoken outside of religious services for a single religion? Hebrew was until recently, in all intents and purposes a dead language, like Latin. Oh and you also have to include real places and practices that haven't been discovered yet. And you have to have the characters come from one place to another, where it is discovered after you write this book, that the people living in that area have ancient practices of the place your people came from and similar stories to those in your book, including a legend that a sacred book was taken and buried in a hill, like the Mayan legend in the Borgia Codex (written in Mayan) about the sacred book called Teoamoxtli.
First known existence of brass dates 86 years after these “Brass Plates” are dated to 500 AD. Oops!
The old "KNOWN" as you said, but they had steel already, so I highly doubt your information is up to date.
@@bartonbagnes4605 😂
@@Nothingnothing1111 A distinction between Brass(Copper mixed with Zinc) and Bronze(Copper mixed with Tin) wasn't made until the 1700s A.D. But we know they were writing on Bronze Plates at least as early as the 700s B.C.E., and other metals about 2,000 years earlier. So the existence of Brass Plates is not only likely, it's all but confirmed. Plus I have seen and heard reports of people who saw chambers with writings on metal, skins and other materials all over the Americas. One I saw was on a show on the Discovery Channel or History Channel, I forget which, about the legend of El Dorado. On this show a man said he was led into a cave in the mountains near a village, and after going past a part you practically had to swim he came to a large chamber, not filled with treasures of Gold and Silver, but with treasures of writings. History far more valuable, rare and fragile than riches. Others from books or other shows, tell of men who end up lost in the jungle, usually when a plane crashes, and find ruins of a temple or city. When they go inside they find writings on Gold and other materials, but after they get out of the jungle and try to find them again, they can't. In one case the man tried to recruit locals to help him, but was told "Oh no, the time is not yet." These reports came from people who had no connection to The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter-day Saints, and possibly had never even heard of such a church. One of the books was Ancient Mysteries And Lost Cities In South And Central America by David Hatcher Childress, a rogue archeologist, who subscribed to the Atlantis, Lamuria and Mu legends, but not Aliens. He had no problem with people coming to the Americas by boats, and believed many groups from all over the world had done so before Columbus, including those mentioned in The Book Of Mormon. Though it was clear he had never read it, since he made no connection to other things that eched things mentioned in The Book Of Mormon. But he had no problem with it being an historical account. David definitely had no agenda for or against any religion. Though I have only read a couple of his books, they are at the least entertaining, if not eye opening.
"Writing the Book of Mormon required neither a conspiracy nor supernatural intervention"
well since the claims are that god, jesus, and angels directed the writings of the BoM ... it absolutely required "supernatural intervention."
You misunderstand the point. No conspiracy or supernatural intervention is _required_ to plausibly explain the production of the BOM.
Very important disclosures; thank you. New Mainline Honestly.
If you people deny the origin of the Book of Mormon why not discard it?
All religion regardless of its origin is an aggregate of, lack of understanding of the physical universe, mans ignorance, avarice and ego and pure unadulterated bullshit.
However our insatiable need to find out where we came from, why we are here and where we are going is the moat beautiful and important mystery we can never figure out. Each piece of the puzzle is worth examination for the fact that it gives us insight on what others see or have seen as god and they give us a window into different times and different cultures all of which are threads in the beautiful tapestry that is the soul of man. I think that anyone who dives deep enough and opens their mind and heart will eventually see that while every single philosophy came about due to us craving that gnosis we have all heard tell of. If people would see that most of it is metaphor, allegory, botched translation, speculation on for lack of proof or down right lies set forth by greedy dicks for personal gain and sometimes just the ravings of lunatics( Mormonism is entirely comprised of the last two any way if people are Intelligent and do research and think logically and critically they will find that its super easy and that "God" is not some anthropomorphic bearded daddy figure in the sky or anything we can name qualify quantify or ever understand but it is in each of us in every molecule every atom every electron quark muon gluon lepton neutrino and frikin boobino farino in the universe and all the things we say god has done or can do is even more beautiful without him because we did it ourselves we made it ourselves we live it ourselves. God will be the best part of this place once we fuckin kill the god our forefathers contrived and be the gods we all truly are. Mormons are definitely right up there with the most insane of all religions tho we wouldnt lose any precious meaningful beautiful part of history if we scratched them off the record.
It’s a fraud sir . Joseph was a swindler not a prophet
@@CSHorn Yet the Bible contains scientific facts that weren't discovered by man until the last 200 years or so, in the case of ocean currents by using the Bible. Not to mention all the Prophecies that have been fulfilled. Like the rise, split and then breaking of the Roman Empire into small kingdoms, over five hundred through a thousand years before it happened. How could man create that?
@@bartonbagnes4605 Like the rise, split and then breaking of the Roman Empire into small kingdoms, over five hundred through a thousand years before it happened" Where in the Bible is this prophecy?
@@albertofernandez2490 Daniel 2: 31-45, Daniel 7 and Revelation 13.
"Mormon apologists argue that the composition of the Book of Mormon requires supernatural intervention to explain. However, the scholarly consensus is that no extraordinary explanations are necessary." ...
perhaps not necessary ... but also irrelevant ... because it does not change whether the book is true or not.
@@gordianknot9595 since scholarship cannot prove is not historical,
that is not relevant.
theology changes ... it always has ... study history.
the quote is "line upon line, precept upon precept."
true means true.
but it does not mean complete.
@@gordianknot9595
"scholarship can prove it’s not historical though as much as anything can be proven."
nonsense.
first ... you cannot prove a negative ... so, no, you cannot prove it is not historical.
second ... close to twenty people saw and handled the plates smith had.
they have all sworn again and again they saw and handled them.
even the people who left the church, or were excommunicated from the church, who saw and handled them continued to swear to their dying day, that they saw and handled them.
third ... "scholarship" does the exact opposite of what you claim.
more and more proof of the claims of the BoM surface.
it is just as provable as the bible is ... perhaps even more.
I'm a former member of Community of Christ and no longer believe the Book of Mormon to be a divine work. And your portrayal of Joseph Smith as an amoral ends-justify-the-means character is pretty much the conclusion that i reached myself. But what baffles me about Community of Christ is that you have prophets since 1958 whose revelations are revered, and if you dispute their authority you get silenced or excommunicated. It seems like pure hypocrisy of the worst sort to say you can believe the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith's understanding of the church are culturally conditioned nonsense, but you must not believe that Section 156 and Wallace B. Smith's understanding of the church are also culturally conditioned nonsense. Other than out of a lust for power, i don't understand why the liberal RLDS leaders didn't just leave the church and let the conservatives who believed in the Book of Mormon and all that stuff continue to perpetuate it. I actually agree theologically with the leadership of Community of Christ on a lot of issues but their authoritarian treatment of people whose only fault was to uphold what the church had taught for over a century is very difficult for me to forgive let alone sympathize with.
Unlike the Book of Mormon s, the Qur'an was channeled through meditations. This is common even today. Listen to Abraham -Hicks channeling it's almost impeccable.
How many monks meditated in the past and got channeled through so they have so many versions of quran nowadays?
I think you have nice taste in shoes.
Google Mormon doctrine vs Christian doctrine. You'll see the LDS have scripture together better than the other churches. This is proof that LDS scripture is from above.
i dunno this sounds a lot like some one that doesn't like the book of Mormon , even Christ says ask and you shall receive .? maybe. any way what mite be interesting is the book of Mormon has the 3 witness and the 8 witnesses a Unique idea can you talk about this these in-depth perhaps in a favorable light or at lest both side . i have a lot i could question about your UA-cam above i think for the most part a fair assessment and a attempt at defusing some of the built up of opinions , though faith demands a sacrifice often its the very proofing that all want to have the jist is read pray and ask God if its true you mentioned Pratt there is a good account about him doing so ,i mean clicks are good but do the flip and bring the light from within the book a Mormon you mite even triple the clicks i mean if its so fraudulent every church has right and wrong in its foundation , almost like its some guys opinion and the purpose of religion as i understand is to come unto Christ all the Mormons seem to want to add is ; "look" Christ came here also . just asking for less bias even if your still of the thought it ain't for me there our literally millions that have knelt and did this very act walking in faith
Community of Christ (whom this channel belongs to) is a Mormon denomination founded by Joseph Smith's own son.
It’s a fraud sir . Joseph was a swindler not a prophet
@@HistoryandReviews well not convinced the issue is you believe it so intrinsically you make it real but it hasn't any thing to do with the truth of it stop hating so much it serves you not your headed down a path you can't make right when you discover the error of your way , stop pointing the finger or God will point it bACK AT YOU
@@pitelf3852 Joseph was a swindler. He would send his male followers off on “missions” and then sleep with their wives and daughters. This has been documented. He also could not read Egyptian as he claimed he could because when they showed him tablets he made up everything, and when they tried to read what it actually said he ran away on his carriage
@@HistoryandReviews well one persons mission is another malfeces , get a group that has a type of narrative that gains popularity that narrative gains a life of its own with nothing to do with the truth only error , nice and easy to damn a guy when he isn't there to set the account straight let not play pile on moves you to an area like we have now with dem and repubs yet different rules , day of accounting should be fun
I just farted holy ship it
Lol
The Book of Mormon is the actual history of Ethiopia. It documents Ethiopian Jews that escaped Jerusalem and settled in Ethiopia. The book was most likely compiled (abridged) in the 13th century AD and discovered by European explorers in the 17th century when Ethiopia was explored.
Why did Jesus lie to Joseph,telling him to proselytize the Delaware Natives when the real Lamanites are in Africa?
It was men that decided to use the true history of Ethiopian Jews to convert the Native American Indian, not Jesus. The Book of Mormon is a parable for America. It is true but it is clearly not the true history of America.
Why did God tell Joseph Smith to take a teenage wife and lie to Emma about it?
Why did God tell little children they could not be baptizes if their mom or dad was gay?
Men did these things, not Jesus, not God.
@@charlesmendeley9823
U r intelligent enough and give credence to the book of mormon The more I listen to you my beleaf in The Book of Mormon grows
It’s a fraud sir . Joseph was a swindler not a prophet
Then you obviously did not listen at all.
Check Royal Skousen's writings of the analyses of the BOM. You will then want to be rebaptized and repent if you open your heart to truth.