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WHICH PRIMARCH WAS TOLD OF CHAOS? WHO DID THE EMPEROR TRUST? - PART 2
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- Опубліковано 24 бер 2022
- Hi all Rho here! Today we continue to ask the question: Which Primarch was told of the Ruinous Powers? This is part two and the conclusion of our discussion! If you missed part 1 be sure to go back and check that out first!
General Spoiler Warning to begin as the events we are discussing today are from across the Warhammer 40,000 universe! So you have been warned!
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I'm a fan of corax being the one, cause he is able to handle becoming his true warpy self without any real side effects. He just seems to have a greater understanding.
I mean, he did have 10 000 years for that. I wouldn't be surprised if Leman was able to turn into a psychic wolf or something if we ever got a short story of him being in the Eye of Terror in the current timeline.
He always considered his powers to be emperor-given gifts, rather than warp spawned powers - he later embraced his nature, reluctantly. Knowing full well where it was descendent from, but that occurred in the book "Corax" almost at the end of the Heresy.
I would also argue that his disgust at learning the origin of the primarchs would indicate that he realized he was spawned from something bad, something he already knew was bad mojo.
Yeah I lean towards Corax or Russ. Corax clearly has warp abilities even before going to the eye of terror. He can essentially become invisible.
@@Matihood1 If I remember correctly, in "methaphysical spear" novel, Russ dived into warp on fenris, to meet "wulf king who was in the end he himself. So in a way russ embraced his warpness earler than corax.
For further evidence that it wasn't Dorn, read the short story The Lightning Tower. Dorn is sounds completely dumbfounded by the existence of chaos itself in his conversation with Malcador. Also, Lion for life!
Just like when he pretended he didn't know Vulkan was on Terra?
Isn’t that the one where he finds out he volunteered to have his mind wiped in order to forget about his missing brothers. Technically dorn isn’t supposed to be corruptable, he probably just wouldnt trust himself with the information.
I could see Vulkan. When he says "there are no gods." Could be taken to mean that the Emperor did tell him about them, but knew Vulkan would not see them as God's, but rather just strong warp entities. And thus not fall for their powers
I would like to add that I vote for Vulkan as a tribute to TTS. The Custodies did say, "The greatest defense against the temptations of Chaos is the love of a parental figure."
Vulkan's whole culture is that of familial love. From the Emperor to him, him to his son's, and them onto the people of the Imperium and their families.
Creativity, Discipline, and Sacrifice, Vulcan lives!!
@@djchappell1726 *STOMP STOMP*
He's also a perpetual. They all seem to have the ability to logically conclude that 'Yeah, chaos is bad. What moron would join?'
I can maybe see it being Vulkan, the emperor did task him with forging the Talisman of Seven Hammers as the dead man's switch for the golden throne (blow up terra in solar system wide psychic and physical explosion killing everyone permanently and denying chaos and horus Terra/Webway).
I truly think it still is Curze. He was the one primarch who the emperor told his explict purpose and plans for him. It also could be alpharius (i.e. the first primarch found as Head of The Hydra by Mike Brook states). Makes too much sense to have your covert ops guy know a lot.
My son's please use some of those thrones for ice cream for yourselves
Urm.
15:00
Vulkan insist there are no gods. Don’t forget that the Emperor denied that the four chaos deities were gods.
Should the Emperor be in a situation where he has to explain what they are he would only do so through cold logic.
Presenting that to Vulkan, explaining them as parasites that feed off the emotions of the living…
I’d argue he’s a strong contender.
Lion took on and curb stomped a Greater Deamon of Tzeentch, was trusted against the Rangdan and succeeded [eventually], destroys the Khrave hive lord completely and quickly, and survived Caliban. Plus he was trusted with the Age of Darkness arsenal, including the hideous psychic weaponry, and had a fully aware and trained cadre waiting for the Khrave
I agree. Lion makes the most sense. Caliban indicates he was aware, at a minimum, of Chaos if not the truth of it. And presumably would have asked the Emperor about it.
But what clinches it, imo, is that the Emperor entrusted the Dark Age tech to Lion. That’s really, really nasty stuff. If the Emperor had any inkling whatsoever that Lion could turn, he wouldn’t allow Lion to have possession of it. It would be game over if Chaos got ahold of that tech. If the Emperor was willing to trust Lion with that, he would also trust the truth to Lion. Not to mention the Emperor would want Lion as prepared for the ruinous powers given the trust he has in Lion. You’re spot on imo.
Either the Lion or Alpharius have my vote. Alpharius for being the actual first found and still being a secret even at the height of the Heresy, just has big "ace in the hole" vibes. The Lion fought chaos as a child, and Kairos has that line about him, although that, like the "Emperor made deals" line could be twisted easily.
My far left field guess is the Khan. Besides Alpharius, his mind is the only other one flexible yet stern enough to accept chaos' existence without falling to it.
The possibility of Alpharius/Omegon occured to me as well, but that seems to be directly contradicted by the novel Legion. Both were "surprised" by the concept of it when the Cabal revealed it. That is, of course, those two Alphalegionaires in that story were, in fact, true Alpharius and Omegon. By personal contenders are Perturabo and Corax.
@@chaoslance4959 No they knew of it just a well simple version of it. I thing they where never told the true scale of it. I don't think if the emperor told anyone that oh ya what we travel through has being so powerful they could warp all of reality if they wished it if enough people were to follow them. Ya I don't think that talk would have gone well.
@@chaoslance4959 I can see a healthy argument being made for Corax but absolutely not Perty. Like Angron, I think he was one of the ones BigE was planning on falling to chaos.
Why do you think Perty though?
I´m on your side with Alpharius, I have the feeling he was much more trusted by the Emperor than we know. Do we really know if the first found was actually Alpharius or maybe it was Omegon? Read the Primarch book and I´m not sure what to think. I mean Omegon is the more loyal one and less thirsty for war.
@@PretenderCS The way i understand it. Alpharius was the one found on earth and Omegon was the one “found” by Horous (but the brothers has swapped Names at that point, so Horus believes he found Alpharius.
During the heresy, The pretend Alpharius(Omegon) went traitor siding with Horous, while the pretend Omegon(Alpharius) went undercover loyalist running sabotage missions on traitor affairs.
Eventually pretend Alpharius(Omegon) makes it to Pluto, and gets his head caved in by Rogal Dorn. So then pretend Omegon(Alpharius) had to take back his original handle/namesake and keep up appearances as to no sabotage the ruse.
Later it is this Alpharius who maybe did get killed by Robute, or he setup a body double to take the fall, and is still out there running schemes and underground networking on a galactic scale.
I hope its the latter.
TLDR: Rogal Killed Traitor Alpharius, Robute “killed” Loyalist Alpharius
Emps: "ok malky now time to make the primarch who magically sees every bad acts motivation, judges them, and his soldiers who will inflict a symphony of pain upon them that is sort of..."
Malky: "Dark Elderish....pleasurfully painful....darkly alluring....blood shedding....bone removal....sort of thing?"
Emps: "Exactly!"
Malky: "Sir why not just name this one Slaaneshy McKorneface and the Traitor Lords?"
Emps: "Hmm I was thinking Conrad....oh wait. I see what you mean, we should probably have the old father son chat early with this lad"
Has no one read legion? How did alpharius know about the emperors grand plan to eliminate chaos if they didn’t know what chaos was?
I mean… Technically a bunch of Primarchs were aware of the warp and chaos in general, it’s just whether or not they understood the truth of it
Exactly no one else knew about the emperors real plan to eliminate chaos they may have known about chaos but not the ultimate goal of the emperor but somehow AL did and that’s why they turned not to chaos but away from the emperor for the emperor
@@nickkymanick7011 Knowing something isn't knowing the full truth or the gift of extra resistance. We know that Horus was told something because he has a conversation with Loken about it after Samus shows up and the Luna Wolves are confused by it. Yet Horus is clearly not the one. Russ said that he should have been told, so we know it isn't him, but he obviously knew something since he was sent to Prospero to arrest Magnus.
I actually disagree with the lion for a 1 reason. If Malcador knew it to be the lion then why would he have questioned his loyalty so often as he did from "the board is set" as we see commented on.
I believe it was Alpharius for a few reasons.
1. The cabal used the destruction of chaos as the selling point for betrayal
2. The cabal chose the alpha legion due to the remarkable purity from chaos according to them.
3. " the overthrow of the primordial annihilator is his greatest wish" from the end of legion indicates he has been told the truth of the matter.
That is my opinion on this question
Well for one thing Malcador's doubt precedes his revelation. There's no evidence he knew any Primarch was aware of the gods during his discussion with the Emperor. And the Emperor's own response during that conversation shows there is zero chance in his mind the Lion would be a problem. It proves Malcador isn't told everything. He may have gained that knowledge later.
Alpharius also might have just gone along with his twins choice because they never wanted to go to open war that ended with the death of humanity ... even before his death at the hands of Rogal Omegon pleaded the case.
Alpharius makes alot of sense. Including the fact that he knows the value and importance of keeping secrets. Moreso than Lions arrogance and hubris. And yeah since malcador is so distrusting towards Lion I will too rule him out.
Also the Alpha Legion does not believe in ultimate victories.
They are cruel realist.
They do not think that chaos can truly be defeated.
But there is a need to guide the war to a outcome that can be manage in the long run.
They need to control Horus and The cabal effect on the war.
I agree it's Alpharius and with most of your points except point 2. The Cabal actually worked their way through the Primarchs, rather that choosing Alpharius specifically.
It is the Lion. The only one who has no story about how he was surprised by chaos. Also he ritually destroyed the Traitor homeworlds and helped the emperor weather the inner war.
Just what I thought as well.
Lion it must be
You don't think it might be Corax? The Big E trusted him enough to give him the knowledge on the damn Primarch Project. Not only that, he is the only known Loyalist Primarch to ascend to Daemondhood. He seems to have an understanding of the Warp. Not only that, he understood that he could ascend to Daemondhood without selling his soul as they all have that power in him, they just have to unlock it.
Yeah... He destroyed worlds that were most likely complainant. If he knew about Chaos Gods, he would also knew that destroying entire worlds and killing billions would fuel the chaos, don't you think?
But he destroyed them out of pity, to make traitors angry and to cope with his own anger.
@@ironduke5058 Corax was entrusted such knowledge only after the deposite massacre, his actions leading up to it in my eyes disqualified him from being the one, unless he was incredibly open to take huge risks when he engaged the enemy that he would have suspected to be swayed by the powers.. no. I cannot suspend my disbelief enough for that. Corax is no fool. He is a great Strategist in his own right and would have considered the disloyalty of the other Legions.
You don't think Perterabo might have been it? he did turn traitor, but he has seen the eye of terror since he was a child, been unnerved by it, and endured in spite of it.
The lion hands down I know that was last video but I’m still holding strong to that
Yeah, my boy Lion takes the cake. Especially when you consider him executing Nemiel, he knew right away that he'll need sphykers to fight Demons.
Didn't someone else have to tell that to The Lion?
Ya... after reading The Head Of The Hydra, Alpharius is kinda the clear choice. As Alpharius said himself to Russ, he's the one who keeps secrets.
Yeah, Alpharius makes too much sense. Also, I don't get why people think the first found Primarch is killed by Dorn. The last found primarch was always the one who took the front facing role of "Alpharius" to those "in the know" (Horus/other legions). Also, the dude who died had the drake scale armor and the pale spear and the first found Primarch never wore that
- I’m surprised there aren’t more of him -
@@jamesbaurus5928 not to mention, in the novel head of the hydra, it is stated that its always one of the space marines that takes the lead. Its the most stupid move possible for a legion and a primarch that is specialized in spying and behind the lines kind of warfare to have a head to head confrontation with Rogal Dorn and get killed. I believe that both of the twins are alive and fighting the chaos and making moves and contingency plans for the imperium. Also it was Alpharius that caused the blood games in imperial palace. So it was again Alpharius that exploited the outer system defenses to warn the imperium of the vulnerabilities and also found the way to get off of radar.
It is Alpharius who was trusted with the secret of chaos. Lion is a doomsday primach. Alpharius was made to maintain the imperium. Others were made to conquer it.
@Nariman H Exactly Alpharius is the Imperiums sword in the darkness. How could he surve that function if he didn't know what threats the Imperium faced from the start? I think there is a possibility that either Alpharius or Omegon is dead, but both being dead is highly unlikely.
@@nariman351 It NEVER made sense to me that Alpharius himself would have gone on that mission. From all the previous novels it is pretty clear that they use stand ins and even gift them with their blood and a portion of their strength and memories.
I would rule out the lost 2 primarchs simply because of how much Malcador goes out of his way to avoid mentioning them at all. I don't think he'd have spoken that line if it was #2 or 11 as then he would have to acknowledge them further.
Possibly, but I don't think Malcador is being honest about them. The two (or at least one of them) was taken out of the Great Crusade Possibly because of just that and when The Horus Heresy would kick off, they'd be a primary target for termination and were far too valuable to lose. On top of that, Primarchs are extremely valuable weapons that can't be replicated again.
@@MWH12085 Primarchs can be "replicated". Emperor said to Malcador that they will have to do something about Ferrus being dead.
Be pretty funny if Angron was told, because Emps knew that if Angron could deny The Emperor in his full glory then he could probably just tell the CGs to get bent
Angron didn’t defy the Emperor in full glory, he defied the Emperor on two fronts - The Butcher’s Nails and the abandonment of his brother gladiators. Two things that stopped him ever seeing the Emperor’s full glory even when it was right in front of him.
@@psychedashell *sigh* Yes, yes he did. And not only am i not going to prove you wrong because this is basic lore for Angron, i am going to ignore you because this is basic for Angron.
@@worldeater2414 You've already failed to ignore me, might as well negate it with efforts at education or gamble on two fails - if you've got the stones.
Of all the Primarchs, save perhaps Mortarion, Lion El'Jonson stands apart. "Partially this is due to his taciturn nature - a brooding silence hangs over him at all times. Yet there is something more... something buried beneath his noble exterior. Perhaps this is a result of his upbringing, growing to maturity alone in the monster-ridden forests of Caliban. Even at a council of war, the Lion moves like an apex predator. He is always watching, always planning, always hunting. He unnerves even his brothers."
I couldn't written it better myself, just that malcador sums up the lion El Jonson 🦁💛 loyalty is its own reward.
I still think it’s the Lion. When questioned the emperor says the lion’s loyalty isn’t an issue.
Alpharius obviously knew
I’m a huge guilliman fan but he had no idea. You skipped over so much introspection in the new books and in his unremembered empire he is constantly asking why his father never told him. I’m the new books. God blight he is starting to realize why his father lied to him.
Maybe hard to remember everthing. But good point, then it rule Roboute out.
Roboute would know about warp entities, becasue it wasnt secret, that if field of ship is of beside madness, something can come aboard
@@macshadow1150 exactly. They all knew about the warp but most thought of the entities In the warp as animals/mindless creatures. The full truth of the chaos gods and humanity’s role in that truth and our eventual fate which the emperor had foreseen was not told to the primarchs. Well except for 1 lol
From what I understand, there is a book in which Malcador and the Emperor are going over different timelines and variations of the heresy, and they mention that only Curze could handle the full truth. I haven't read the book myself but that's what I've heard
I think you are mistaken to leave off Perterabo from the short list as he was able to see the Eye of Terror and still not feel pulled towards gods or magic. He may have well been a walking embodiment of the imperial truth and in such resistant to chaos.
Not only did it not pull him it was the cause of his aggravation as looking at it would unnerve him.
i was actually thinking perterabo escpcially since he would be the one given the "hardest tasks" "things no one else was worthy of, nor could they handle"
I like where your head is at but... P Boi's power was over things that were physical and logical, like science and war. If there was any utility in telling a Primarch about the true nature of Chaos, I think it would've been lost on him because Chaos is not logical or physical. Space Dad also would've been aware of his deeply-hidden negative emotions from the beginning.
Petty Murphy Perturabo had my pick as soon I started watching the first vid. Like you mentioned he was always aware of the eye of terror. He could also see and gauge the amount of warp for great distances. I forget where I read it but one of the primarchs said nobody could sneak up on him. It goes back to his near omniscient ability to understand how everything works. That ability was not limited to technology. The Emperor is the same way. Like when he started spouting Planetary physics and geology to the priest in 'the last church' when he was shown the holy rock. Also when he drank the aged wine from the priest. Saying he hadnt tasted that in a long time. He also knew where it came from.
he did not answer to the whispers of some god and became tempted to turn to chaos. His legion really ain't about that chaos life. Maybe more so than the Alpha legion. They cut off all warp mutations and if needed, they installed cybernetic replacements.
I don't recall if the knowledge to make a huge trap fort/warp sacrificial altar and the ritual, was given to him by someone or he just knew. This was his own choice to basically trade souls for warp power.
The last point I would make and I feel is the most important....who TF taught Perturabo how to kill/banish/trap demons? One of which was a his brother Angron who was at least twice his size. The whole battle was described like some scene from a grey knights story or some Van Helsing story. He had carefully laid plans to achieve victory.
I also have a question for clarity on the Emperor bestowing this knowledge to one of his sons. Are we talking like he taught this knowledge to a son after finding him? Or did he create said son with the knowledge?
@@jimjamauto you have either missed a lot of what has been written on him or maybe you're not understanding him. Perturabo questioned the emperor about why he was the way he was, his knowledge and how he sensed him before he was ever close to him. The emperor told him he made him exactly that way. Hard, aware, intelligent and cold blooded. While he was able to improve things around him he never really was able to improve himself. He had moments where he seemed to be tapped into an almost normal human being but then one of his brothers would piss him off. Mostly due to the fact he and his legion were unmatched in the grueling protracted campaigns. Not glorious at all. Which made him resent the others. He could do nearly everything the others could even to a higher level in many cases when it comes to combat. Which he definitely brought it upon himself. He always thought he had better plans and there was no way to get him to do it your way because he was mostly correct. He resented not being able show them he could do what they did and do it better. Nobody wants to hang out with him. I always felt like Perturabo would rather fight his brothers rather than purging Xenos, witches and Mutants from the galaxy
In Jaghatai Khan: Warhawk of Chogoris it's revealed the Khan already knew of chaos. Knowledge and fear of them was established on Chogoris. The Khan didn't need to be told, that count?
He knew of the being living in the Warp and possessing the flesh of Psykers ... sure. Many primarchs knew this. Possibly most of them knew that there is some bad mojo in the warp ... hence we need Gellar fields.
Horus told Loken that he learned about demons of the warp from his father in Horus Rising.
He's actually one of the biggest contenders imo.
Vulcan for me is still a big contender. The emperor wouldn't call them gods to anyone, just some sort of force or energy, like himself. So the fact he wasn't shocked and claimed there are no gods make me feel like he knew.
Naaa if Vulkan knew he would have jumped in a taxi and gone straight over to the eye of terror, pulled out a fat spliff and hashed out a peace treaty ending in him and khorne hugging
The two resisting to me are Curze or Perturabo.
Posted this in the last video. I'm currently reading "Deliverance Lost" and Corax knows the truth of Chaos. The Emperor directly tells him about the webway project, golden throne, chaos gods, deamons and Horus aligning himself with them. This happens around 6mo. after Istvaan V when he gives Corax the primarch gene tech location.
At one point in the story he almost tells two of his captains the truth but catches himself at the last second.
It also seems Corax might be the first loyal primarch to break the Nikea order. In front of a squad of Custodies at that.
Corax also tells the Emperor he remembers being made, his time spent in the pods and seeing his fathers face while in the pod. The big E finds it very strange that he would remember that.
I believe it is Alpharius but you make a very strong case for Corax.
@@kccustodes2618 I would of probably also said Alpharius untill I read that part of the book just about a day ago. Granted Corvus does tell the Emperor he doesn't really understand what he's talking about. The Emperor then tells him he doesn't have to understand it and does a well I gotta go now See ya later and gets back up on the golden throne ending their meeting.
Maybe we see it at wrong angle?
Lorgar was told about gods before he even met emperor. "Was told" doesnt necessery mean belived in what was told.
You make a good point Erebus and Kor phaeron both knew of the old Gods (Chaos Gods)
You think he wasn’t told by the emperor but by his adopted father? That’s a major twist
I'd put money on alpharius, the reason? What if he found his true name, aka warp God name henceforth "I am alpharius, that is a lie." Also malcador was training him with warp whispers since the "beginning". If malcador told him his whispers were real he would have had to divulge that the others were real too, henceforth needing to explain the warp gods to him. But malcador couldn't say it to the others because it was secret that alpharius was found first, and he could give no cause at that point in the heresy for the primarchs to have any doubts in the emperor, and not to give rogal any more of a quilt trip because alpharius was secretly loyal all along and was supposed to be a last ditch backstabbing move... but o well.
Sound logic Ro! Great job on the research.
Point of note, Lorgar was inducted to chaos first as he grew. He might not have known the full depth but he always knew about chaos.
I could see Mortarion being the one. His overall resistance to corruption on Barbarus, and the overall Death Guard trait of inexorability speak of a core resilience. The Thousand Sons needed to be turned to dust to stop the corruption of chaos, where Mortarion and his children wear Nurgle’s corruption with ease.
There’s also the “redemption of Mortarion” idea - if Morty were the naturally resistant son, it would make for a beautiful narrative arc for him to fall but then be perhaps the only redeemed
I like this theory but I think the whole primarch redemption is just a gw tease. Too much has happened since the heresy for a primarch to just say sorry I made a mistake.
Great video again, you brought up some points I was not aware about. Overall, I agree on Lion being the most likely "winner" here. He just fits the bill perfectly. My second and third pick would be Corax and Russ. And funnily enough, in my eyes, Ravenlord's reaction to learning about his origin is pointing towards him knowing, instead of not knowing of the chaos. As I see it, he was disgusted precisely because he knew what it means.
Again if Alpharius knew that there were gods in the war then he would act decisively as he did when approached by the Cabal. If anything it supports the fact that he knew about the gods if he turned so swiftly.
Or, he was just unusually susceptible to Xenos subversion.
One interpretation for Russ' comments " The Emperor should have told us" could still be that he alone was told but felt all of them deserved to know, not just him
One other thing in the Lions favor is that he has always been shrouded with secrets - its one of the main aspects within his entire chapter after all - that has been there since day one of the 40k universe as far as I remember at least
I agree, and i think it was more likely Russ. It could also explain the whole "Emperors Executioner" thing, and why he alone had the heart do do that later on. He knew exactly what was the problem with his Brethren, and why he had to fight them, unlike anyone else. And why he failed to kill Horus when he was wounded by the Emperors Spear. It knocked the Chaos out of Horus, if only temporarily. And Russ doubted in that split second if his Brother could not maybe be saved nonetheless.
IIRC he also was even less tempted than the Lion. Kairos at least tried it with the Lion. No one tempted Russ, because there was no chance for him to fall. He knew it, and the Chaos gods knew it.
And let's not forget the Lion WAS surprised by his 2nd in command falling to Chaos. How could that happen if he knew about the Chaos gods. Half his legion fell... which doesn't speak for his geneseed either.
Guilliman makes sense, especially as he was able to shrug off the effects of Kor Phaeron stabbing him with the Anathame, as does Russ, especially as the entire point of the Wulfen gene is to provide extra resistance to Chaos corruption, that and the Wolf Priests specifically making a point of drawing power from Fenris, rather than from the warp
Only one Primarch was never tempted by the warp, and that is the Emperor's only heir and only one Primarch fits that description. Great video as always.
A comment regarding Roboute. Guilliman is a calculative force, for him literally it does not matter knowing or not knowing in the end. His thought process most likely will be the same regardless of the situation:
1)Where we are at? (displayed in the novel)
2) Can we beat this?
3) If yes, strengths and weaknesses
4) Advancing
5) If not, plans for retreating.
If he knew from the get go Ultramarines would have been already trained for this situation, even if not openly. Therefore Guilliman if he knew we would have already know, but his general reaction would have been the same. Just another tactic that we need to calculate. Mind you we are speaking of the 30K Guilliman not the 40K one.
Well to be fair for Morty he did got betrayed by a single guy that damned the entire legion until Nurgle broke them. *Resistance* is the tolerance to something up to a extent, being in a home realm of the most disgusting shit ever all of a sudden would destroy the resistance of almost anything, Malcador never said full proof or totally resistant which is key to narrowing down.
Early in the Great Crusade, the Dark Angels were said to have been used to destroy enemies that were so dangerous, the fact that they existed was struck from the imperial record. It makes sense that maybe they were being used to purge chaos cults and the such, and recover things others could just not know about? I can see the lion making sense.
I'm all for corax as I mentioned in a reply to a comment on the previous video. The emperor told him about the secrets of the primarchs' creation, the astartes project and so on. During the heresy he fought a sorcerer and before killing him, corax swore that he would destroy anything tainted or corrupted by chaos, not the warp but specifically chaos, as said in Shadow of the Past. He wouldn't have said that if he didn't know atleast some element of truth about the arch enemy.
Great work Rho-agree 100%!
It is Russ the canis helix is said to protect from chaos and Space Wolfs give themselfs willingly to the CH only not to fall to chaos.
I just finished the Raven Gaurd novel and was wondering if the Astartes that were part of the Raptor Project were Primaris Marines, proto-Primaris or something more?
Kind of. He tried to upgrade the astartes in some ways. Not quite primaris but an upgraded space marine none the less.
Great analysis, I still think it could have been Curze because just as he resents his foresight, he would also resent that knowledge. But the Lion is a great answer as well
I remember Horus coming to garviel loken after the incident at the whisperhead mountains and explaining what it was garviel saw. Which was a demon. I’m sure he mentions chaos or the warp.
Horus Rising, just after Jubal turned.
@@TenPtJackalope thank you for picking out the book. It’s all become some enormous blob in my head but I’m sure I remember Horus telling loken about warp entities and what not.
If it is ever revealed then it will be Guilliman. Being similiar to Dorn in not a good reason to discount him. The fact that he is the Space Marine faction leader is however.
To me still Alpharius is the one who was most trusted. When primarchs were scattered Emperor thought that primarchs were dead. So him filling Alpharius about chaos gods sounds the most plausible.
And Alpharius switched placed with Omigon a lot. So the one who sided with Horus was most likely Omegon. Because Emperor and Malcador would fill Alpharius (who was raised on Terra) about their plan to protect humanity.
About Alpha legion betraying Emperor because of Xeno prophecy... It's Alpha Legion we're talking about here. They definitely had knowledge about Curze visions and how they always come to pass. They also had spies in Blood Angels legion, so they would also learn about Sanguinous visions.
OG Alpharius would also learn from Emperor and Malcador to use ALL the knowledge, no matter where it comes from. If you can use Xeno then you do it. Just like Emperor used Golden Throne and webway.
So Alpharius and Omegon having knowledge about visions and they would definitely had some proof of the "xeno visions" being correct they acted on it.
And since Omegon is the one who turns out to be the "smarter one" who thought of trying to break the vision by doing both things I would say we can easily assume that Omegon is OG Alpharius who was raised on Terra.
I agree with everything you say there.
Alpharius is a liar, his entire book maybe a lie. His legion are traitors even if a few of them are deluded enough to believe their serving the emperor.
Alpharius has filled your head with lies due to his fake-news book. He was there with his brother all along as stated in one of the most prominent books in the entire heresy - The first heretic.
*The pod before him was a clone of his father's, but growing faint and indistinct before his eyes. The ground was dark, the night sky was starless, and for a moment Argel Tal wasn't sure whether he stood on the surface of a world or the deck of a powered down ship. As his senses faded, he caught a momentary glimpse through the viewplate on the pod´s bulky front. What ever moved within the incubator had too many limbs to be a lone child.*
//The first Heretic, P:312
I agree except it was Alpharius the OG who was raised on Terra. When Omegon was found the OG Alpharius became Omegon and the newly found Omegon became Alpharius so that that 1st time meetings of brothers would feel more real. So it was actually Omegon who was killed by Dorn, the OG Alpharius acting as Omegon had to become his original self.
@@kccustodes2618 I didn't type anything that is contrary to what you've typed.
Unless you meant to say "also" or "which means" instead of "except".
I totally agree with the Lion being the one who knows from your list of possible primarchs. He is one of my favorite primarchs. Even though i dont play dark angels, he has expanded greatly due to the books.
Hopefully he will wake up soon.
When Angron is mentioned in any discussion, you always have to wonder what he’d have been like without the nails and landing on a different world. It’s the same with Kurze, would he have been different on a different world, or having more of a guiding hand from the Emperor/other primarchs. All hypothetical of course, but it’s fun to wonder.
I agree it's the Lion as he is shown to not only never turn as the fate weaver sees but he also just throws a million year old alien out of his mind with ease. However if it's Corax or Ferrus that would be amazing as well.
I still believe its Guilliman. He created the Imperium Secundus, installed Sanguinius as the new ruler. He even told his men almost immediately about warp entities after the betrayal. Current 40k also shows how resistant he was to chaos where he even enters nurgles garden and burns it to the ground. He is the avenging son, the golden light to take up the mantle of regent.
He explicitly says multiple times throughout ever book the emperor never told him shit. It’s 100% not him
I think you're absolutely right about it being the Lion. The first legion was gifted with weaponry that the other legions didn't have and they were the Emperor's Annihilators, skills you would need if dealing with large scale daemonic incursion or psychic awakenings within large human populations. I wish it was Russ, but I don't think it's him.
I like the idea that it's both Alpharius and Omegon, and Malcador isn't aware of Omegon. I also like the idea that they did in fact join Chaos as undercover agents, long game, on orders from E. And they have spent the last 10000 years seeding agents into all the warbands and chaos legions. Preparing for the day E finally is prepared to drop the hammer and kill the chaos gods. A sort of mirror of Istvaan, the chaos legions are all in place ready to defend when suddenly they start getting massacred from within by Alpha Legion, who give E a huge opening to cut the head off chaos.
Edit: Also my headcanon is that both Alpharius and Omegon are still alive and both deaths were faked...because that would 1000% be on brand for them.
The problem with your thoughts is that espionage or infiltrating chaos seems impossible. A trained human could theoretically infiltrate something like a cult or even traitor legions operating in the materium, but to accept chaos into oneself and fool the chaos gods in the immaterium seems impossible. Whatever god they were pretending to serve would surely recognize that the person isn’t completely corrupted. Short of being redeemed by another god of equivalent or greater power - basically only the god-emperor - once you go chaos you’re in it for the long haul.
This might be a bit subtle but the way Lion killed one of his sons who was against using librarians vs demons is a hint that he knew what he was up against. Seems like he knew that librarians would be effective and that this enemy is so dangerous that there is no time to argue. Also Lion thinks himself as the exterminator of the Emperor, he was entrusted with missions and weapons others were not, so maybe he was entrusted with secrets about the enemies that these weapons can be used against. Keeping secrets is also a theme of Lion and his legion.
The Lion makes good sense to me. While out hunting what we know of as a chaos beast for his quest, Zahariel has that encounter with the Watchers in the deep dark of the woods. The encounter gives a sense that very few humans had such interactions with these mysterious beings. This encounter also hints at the warp and chaos. With how prolific The Lion was at hunting those beasts, he almost certainly had to have encountered Watchers in a similar manner, who may have revealed even more to him than they did Zahariel. This experience and The Lions interpretation of it, whatever that may have been, could have provided enough of a foundation for the Emperor to think he would be worthy of such knowledge.
Corax feels like being the one but thinking about it more, it makes more sense for it to be Lion as he is the most secretive of the loyal brothers as well he was fighting Chaos before his father came to take him back into the fold. So Lion has my vote due to the many factors pointing to him.
Perturabo was always instinctively able to see the maelstrom and was resistant to corruption even as a traitor.
Remember when Vulkan saw his father the first time on the golden throne. It does seem like his father came to him as a outlander before to tell him about his fate. He even entrusted him wit a medallion for the golden throne, which would destroy Terra if it would ever fall to chaos.
Didn't Magnus have an idea of it since he told lorgar that they were gods of some sorts in the warp then again I haven't read frist heretic in a long time. Corax I think just hates chaos so much that he out right refuses them.
He probably wasn't told but instead felt the gods.
It's my opinion that the one who knew and was resistant from the beginning, still fell. Magnus was the only one that needed to know just how dangerous the warp was.
Alpharius, so loyal can die a traitor and still be loyal. His fall was deep cover, he's undermining chaos from within.
I definitely have to agree with the lion, even if we get more lore to support other primarcs. As it would explain some of his surprise and questions about why he was not war master. And why the emperor knew that the lion would not turn traitor when everyone else thought he would. Mabye the knowledge of the warp was the only thing that would keep the lion form turning traitor.
I hafta believe part of being made as a psychic judge of good and evil would have to be the answer. Curze turned sure but not to chaos, he turned on The Emperor who did in fact consort with chaos. Not to mention the guy lived in a room of living, suffering victims, and even there hearing voices...none of them were chaos! His legion were clearly meant to be torturers, beings made to shed blood in the most painful way possible and not be swayed to khorne or slaanesh while essentially performing what would be rituals to them in any other instance!
It makes total sense to me that Johnson was the one entrusted. There’s was that talk between the big E and Macador where the Emperor laughed at the very thought of the lion turning, as was his trust so deep in him.
Russ is a great second contender but to me Russ is a bit more narrow minded on such things where Johnson isn’t.
For me, it's either The Lion, Konrad, or Alpharius. All three are specially unique in their relationships with their siblings and Big E, and seem especially resistant to the effects of Chaos and the warp. But were I to pick just one, it has to be the Lion. It just lines up too well to not be him. Even to the point of Horus sending Konrad to distract him and keep him far from the main war.
I have to agree with your logic here. My top 3 would be Lion, Alpharius, and Ferrus Manus.
Lion is a clear standout bc of all the reasons you listed. I would also like to add on that a lot comes down to his demeanor and personality as well. I don't think someone like Russ could be trusted to not tell others. His loyalty is undeniable, but his personality is not fitting of that knowledge. Whereas the Lion is the cold silent observant type, and even when the Heresy was underway, came across as "neutral." I believe you even described it in a previous video - Wolves are the Emperor's Executioners, but the Dark Angels are the Emperor's exterminators. There is a big difference there. One is very public and "showy", the other is dark, dirty, and hidden, and perhaps even more brutal and thorough. The task of combating Chaos is one that the Dark Angels were built on, literally, on Caliban, and continue into current 40k. Perhaps that knowledge of Chaos is also a theme as to why the Dark Angels feel such shame about half their legion turning traitor. And why they have to keep it so hidden.
I think Ferrus would be a really interesting choice from a storytelling standpoint, as he could have revealed that the betrayal was caused by Chaos corruption. But well... yknow... he got his head cut off. I think a big reason he wouldn't be is because of his closeness to Fulgrim. I don't think they could have been so close, and Fulgrim not know about Chaos through Ferrus, or not have Ferrus question his blatant changes due to the corruption from his daemon blade.
Alpharius is a really interesting choice bc it is possible that he knew about Chaos all along, and therefore, how to play both sides. Chaos feeds off of humanity, so by destroying some aspects of humanity it actually weakens Chaos. Perhaps he knew about this all along, and that explains why his legion acts the way it does in current 40k.
I agree. It was the Lion, or rather Alpharius disguised as The Lion! Hydra Dominatus!!
I'm putting my vote/guess in for it being the Lion also. We have the conversation between Malc and Big E when they're playing 4D chess, where the Emperor is absolutely certain 'El Jonson would remain loyal. Couple that with his role as the Emperor's exterminator and his unbreakable force of will, it would just make sense for the Emperor to tell him about it if anyone. Especially if we go with the idea that the Emperor planned/predicted the Heresy, then I would be surprised if he DIDN'T tell his most talented loyalist tactician about all their potential enemies beforehand.
I would say Russ definitely knew. He trusted Russ to go after Magnus, Russ also is said to be the one who fought the two lost primarchs as well as the Canis Helix and especially when he is also a favorited son and well he is the enforcer. He definitely also was severely against Magnus looking into studying the Warp.
It's either the Lion or Alpharius Omegon.
Gulliman is an interesting one. His geneseed itself is interesting. Its effects on Marines makes them more accepting of authority and a desire to build societies etc. The Warborne latterly the Ultramarines were built from the most rebellious provinces of Terra.
Ultimately whilst there is some resistance to Chaos. The Alpha Legion seem to possess the most resistance. That can walk the narrow line during the long war. When they will stab Chaos in the back on behalf of The Emperor
I'm still sticking with The Giga Chad Lion 🦁
Grew up surrounded and fighting chaos, trusted with DAOT weaponary, Kairos could not see a future where he turned or tempted to Chaos (a being that has been down the Well of Eternity, an incredible feat). He's the 1st for a reason.
Poor writing, yes
Lion forever!
@@worldeater2414 it's not your fault you received the worst Primarch brother.
@@stormnorman7215 🦁⚔️✊️
@@saltyshackles5227 Not only is Angron probably the best primarch (bias i know), but at least Angron's writing is consistent and he is a chad.
If the lion then his use of the nurgle fleet teleported is interesting.
I also though of Vulkan as with the creation of the golden throne he may have made a weapon against chaos.
The Emperor also shut down Malcador instantly when he mentioned the possibility of the Lion turning against the Emperor. Which would suggest the Lion had a personal chat with the Emperor and his nature was not revealed to anyone not even Malcador.
I still think that Perturabo might be the one who knew and was told about it. Let's not forget that he's the one who was "gifted" with the ability to see Eye of Terror. So I think Emperor might explain to him what it is.
Knowing the Emperor, that was probably the plan but alas, he explained it to the wrong son because he didn't know which one had the ability; and he wouldn't ask because you can't pass yourself off as omniscient if you go around asking questions. tl;dr : he screwed up again.
@@ditmarvanbelle1061 I think Emperor knew well what abilities have each of the primarchs. He designed them himself, he was the one who took knowledge from the chaos gods. He could feel the presence of the primarchs and he which primarchs he feels. So to me he definitely knew about Perturabo's "gifts"
While many signs do point to the Lion, it simply cannot be him as it would break the core design.
The original 4 SM chapters were designed on a crux with UM vs SW on one axis and DA vs BA on the other. Where UM are ordered, SW are disordered. And where the BA are physically corrupted but morally incorruptible, the DA are physically incorruptible and morally corrupted. By being physically flawless but morally flawed, the Lion couldn't be the one entrusted with the truth.
That is very outdated info obviously. Many retcons have happened and piles and piles of books have been written on these now legions over the decades. You say the Lion couldn't be the one entrusted with the truth and yet he was the only one whom the Emperor seemingly had complete unquestioning trust in. There is a reason why the Dark Angels and the Lion are the stewards of weapons so terrible that no other Primarch or Legion didn't even know existed let alone have the authority to wield. Besides, the Lion actively fought chaos on his homeworld long before the Emperor ever came, even burning entire libraries dedicated to the study of Chaos. The Lion arguably had more exposure to Chaos and the "truth" then any other Primarch on their homeworlds, save perhaps Lorgar (who began by being indocrinated into a chaos cult). The Lion being untrustworthy is basically completely opposite of current lore, in fact his loyalty and secret-holding trustworthiness are arguably his greatest character traits
I like thinking its konrad curze because he saw all his brothers deaths an their chaos forms or vulkan since he had spent the most time with the emperor
In line with it being the Lion, that would make sense of why the first legion is so secretive (and was so even before finding their primearch) and why they are so multifaceted and not specialized like the other legions. Its because they are supposed to battle on all fronts against chaos, so no other primarch/legion/humans have to be told about chaos and risk spreading its influense.
It being Lion makes sense to me if for no other reason than he might have needed to know to understand many of the forbidden weapons that the Emperor entrusted to the Dark Angels. And if I am remembering the "newer" DA history correctly, at least one of the knightly orders on Caliban turned out to be Chaos worshipers. And he had already destroyed them before making contact with the Imperium and his father.
Love the two videos, small comment on Alpharius though. While I'm not sure this will really change anyone's opinion I do want to point out that alot of evidence shows that it was Omegon who turned against their father and Alpharius who tried to undo his progress. From letting the White Scars get Dhorns messege to pointing out defensive flaws in terra all while not helping during its siege or escaping to the eye. He was raised to be their secret and independent sword afterall, he could only have been this if he had full context.
Fateweaver lies in such a way that its indistinguishable from the truth, so I'd be hesitant to use him as a benchmark of anything... I personally think it was Corax. On their very first meeting, the Emperor flat-out tells him about the warp and the malevolent denizens of it, which is only a stone's throw away from the full truth.
Alpharias did say in Legion that he knew how much his father wanted to destroy this enemy at any cost I could be out whack with the time line but I do think it could be him as a bit of a curve ball.
Lion, Vulkan, and Corax make the most sense for me.
But, i feel like GW would say it was one of the missing ones or Alpharius if they don’t say Corax
Part of the answer is how trustworthy the primarch has to be, but the second is to have a good reason to show him the truth. For example, there was no need to tell about the gods of Chaos to Russ. What would he do with that knowledge? And why he would even keep it secret?
To me the theory of Kurze makes a lot of sense. Also what I read from others about Corax, as he was so in touch with the warp. And finally the Lion get some points for the "keeping it secret" factor, although I don't know what for to tell him.
I feel like G man wasn’t told outright about the chaos gods but figured it out himself somewhat. He may not know who the gods themselves are but that there are greater powers in the warp then deamons
Short list of primachs I wouldn't leave my kids with over a weekend - Fulgim, Conrad, Lorgar, Angron, and post heresy Morty.
What was Logars original roll supposed to be? Both during the crusade and after?
I’m almost 100% sure that corax says “my father has gravely underestimated this threat”. I think it is said when he is heading back to terra, but it might be another time. He also didn’t need or ask for an explanation when reaching terra which is telling considering the other primarchs reactions. It’s hinted pretty heavily that it’s corax.
Great work and I think I agree with your overall conclusion but I disagree with why you ruled Vulkan out. It seems to me like his answer “there are no gods” is exactly the same kind of answer the emperor would say in that moment. Which, from the emperor’s perspective - there are no gods - only more enemies that stand in the way of humanities ascension. And he also seems to be extremely unflinching in the face of chaos unless there’s a passage that says otherwise that I haven’t read yet.
Just finished "know no fear" Guilliman didn't have clue what was going on. Given what he witnessed the warp entities were a natural conclusion (he's super smart).
Corax: in deliverance lost he actually states that he recognises the taint once he knows what it is.
However alparious is the correct answer given what he know from head of the hydra and legion.
Do you really think that he didn't have other sources?
He's also very much active because he's moloc.
Of the 20 it's only ever corax or alparious.
Russ was clueless, he had no idea what was going on during burning of prospero.
Lion is a traitor... but it doesn't mean he was corrupted.
I agree Lion betrayed Calliban.
In the short story “The Sixth Cult of the Denied” in the Primarch series book, “Blood of the Emperor”. We learn that Magnus knew of the Chaos Gods and states openly he lied to the Emperor and his Legion about this knowledge. Magnus on top of his intelligence is matched with arrogance. It’s perfectly viable for him to have lied about his immaterium comprehension, been told by the Emperor, and then used that confirmation as guidance to then go on and heal the Flesh Change. Resistance (control) he thought he could hold despite entreating the powers.
This is true, however I think Magnus found out for himself while trying to cure the flesh change, The Emperor warned him of the warp but didn't tell him why it was so dangerous!
@@Duppyman695 A valid assertion. The question is did he know via my point to guide him or stumble upon it by happenstance and exploration? Do we have evidence to give context to why Magnus would seek the Flesh Change cure via the immaterium and not some material solution (medicine)? Unless he was told of the powerful gods. The way the story was written it does seem that he ran into Tzeentch blindly while questing in the warp but even being told of them wouldn’t necessarily say he’d recognize them upon contact. 🤷🏽♂️
@@zapricki7402 Now you have got me thinking🤔
As i remember, he knew about the warp entities (the self aware) - not the four primary gods. Aqhet Hakoris had in his travels of the warp contacted Choronzon, but lied to Magnus of this interaction. Believing it was the first interaction with other life forms in the warp, but Magnus had already communed with them before. But if you have reference of Magnus speaking of the chaos gods, which page was it?
Personally think it Russ or ferrus but listen to talk about the Lion, it would give a interesting reason for why he sent home some of his troops after they had been in contact with a demonic entity. Knowing what he does he'd want to separate them from the rest and see if they had been corrupted. Unfortunately he didn't have the time to check back on them for obvious reasons.
Likely Pertarabo. (Or however you spell it.)
Seeing the Eye of Terror was something that ATE AWAY at his mind.
Hence, I'm SURE he asked Emp/Malca what it was.
Reading through the comments after making my initial comment. I'm loving the alpha legion support. While I don't play them are on them they are by far the coolest space Marines going. If I had the money I would buy a ton of them and hire the best painter possible to paint them all exactly as they're shown from the studio painters.
Their story needs to progress more than any other. I'm actually looking forward to the day that the imperium is on its knees and needs to play its last Ace up its sleeve. Which of course will be Alpharious and the Alpha Legion.
It cannot be Guilliman, the tack he maintained during Monarchia reflects NO idea of the possibility of that worship turning.
Further, the suspicion the Emperor exhibited when the Lion was on his way to Ultramar indicates a bit less trust in Guilliman.
I always thought it was either the lost or the purged.
I have to say, it makes a lot of sense for it to be The Night Haunter. My reasoning is very simple, actually. First, Kurz didn't turn traitor because he was corrupted, but because he was angry with daddy and wanted to prove a point. That's why he allowed (yes, this point can be argued if it's true) himself to be killed by an assassin. And for second, I would like to point out to the novel "Lord of Night" by Simon Spurrier, in which Sahaal not only recognised that he is being corrupted, but pushes away the corrupting touch of Chaos, and is outraged to see that members of the Night Lords have actually fallen to Choas. Why do I think this is important? Again, it's simple. Space Marines embody some (if not many) traits and characteristics of their respective Primarchs. As such, there is the possibility that this mental fortitude is something Sahaal could've inherited from Kurz.
I can totally see The Lion being the one. My theory is he is inadvertently warp infected, hence the great sleep. He’s currently fighting it and will eventually win. He’ll awaken and be more powerful against chaos for it.
I also think it could be Konrad. Maybe his mind is broken even more so because he’s in a constant battle with knowledge. Continuously being told his fate is sealed. He chooses to keep his distance from his brothers in a way to keep them shielded. His type of grotesque justice is a defect caused by his ever breaking mind. Only to join Horus because they finally know the truth of corruption.
Speaking of keeping his distance. That’s The Khans whole personality trait. Perhaps his foresight is much more powerful then he ever lets on. He knows the truth but denies the ruinous powers their energy by playing them off as nothing.
Gulliman maybe, only because his pragmatic mind. He might know but realizes their only “ Gods “ to themselves and the warp; they hold no real power.
Lastly, maybe Alpharious. I never believed he believed the Cabal fully. Perhaps some what but not in total. He could also have been trusted with secrets because that’s what he was made for, essentially.
I agree 100% There’s nothing the Lion loves more than keeping secrets.
I wouldn’t be surprised if it was Lion, Alpharius, or Russ. The first two make sense by personality, but if one of his executions involved chaos, you know that Russ and the wolves likely would have noticed the smell of the warp and been like…. Uh… what’s up?
I think it's interesting that the primarch trusted with knowledge of the warp probably wouldn't have the ability to do exactly what the emperor did, and steal power from the dark gods. The Lion, Ferrus, Corax, could you see either of them "bargaining" with the Dark Gods for power? The Emperor was protecting himself as well as his crusade. Imagine if he told Magnus... He'd have gone straight to the portals on Molech or Tallarn immediately to save his sons.
Corax might have reacted strongly BECAUSE he was told of the Dark Gods. Imagine being told then finding out you're one of the Dark God's "sons"
as a thousand sons player and defender of Magnus' actions I agree it absolutely couldn't have been him. Just because he didn't intentionally fall to chaos until the end, I wouldn't necessarily call that resistance. It's very easy to see everything he did as Tzeentch guiding his actions to the point where he would be willing to devote himself to the architect of fate