It takes someone who understands how something truly works to properly analyze a failure. You my friend are that person. Can't wait for the upcoming videos...I love this shite
Matt, the silver shiny crank from 1098 RS is a factory race bike built by Ducati Corse and sold only to race teams. The other dull grey one is a standard road bike item.
Ducati model name/engine cc numbering can be confusing. A 1098 RS (based on the 1098 R homologation road bike) is actually 1198cc. And the base 1098 road bike is ... 1099cc. Because the marketing people wanted people to think about the 998 and not the 999. The multistrada 1200 engine (1198cc) is derived from the 1098, hence the crank markings. Mostly increased bore.
The worst wear would probably be angled at about 30 degrees from vertical on the crank pin close to where the oil hole is.. That is where he highest load is on the crank.
I think the technical term for the second crank is fucked, it looks very much like material failure but it looks like it has been levered on one side for it to fail in that way. The first looks like a possible oiling problem on the bearing of the horizontal conrod causing excessive wear and uneven stress on the crank, the step you could feel was very clear on the camera. If it has been reground I would query the person who did it because it doesn't seem to have been very well. Great video though.
Im gonna take a stab and ask if the offset wrist pin hole is the factory size? Did they make it bigger for some reason and machine off the radius Doesnt appear to be a radius on the sharp edge of the hole. Stress concentration?
You all prolly dont give a damn but does any of you know a tool to get back into an Instagram account? I was dumb lost my login password. I would appreciate any tips you can give me!
So looking at the broken crank and the other for that matter, what sort of things would we be looking for to ascertain if it was caused by a moulding failure i.e. poor or contaminated metal during the manufacturing process?
Lol!!!!!!!!!!!!! I couldn't believe the chuck marks on the main journal, what a butcher. I don't know much about Ducati's but I'm guessing the engine had a misfire or detonation that caused that crank to break.
I thought you had the audio and video out of sink slightly but it turns out movements you make naturally are just a little behind what you say. I'll be keeping an eye on myself now to check if it's common or not. I'm not sure how i feel about the idea of that.
This seems to be a reoccurring pattern on them Dew 🐈 ee's. Would you say this is the case, Matt? I mean is this a common problem they have? And if so, is it just the 1098 family? Thanks man.
LMOA! I don't know - tell you what, send me a new one from each manufacturer and we'll have a look. Does anyone know the answer to this, I mean in reality does anyone know LOL
Matt....Good stuff...Scientific mind at work again.Wish you would have pointed out what end drives the clutch...ect....necessary to determine loads....Thanks.
OOHH. Ey Matt. I was just thinking, and I can't tell properly from the video. And I'm also not sure if it is of any import. But the totally wankered crank didn't look like a forged one, just cast. The gorgeous, shiny, machined cracked one certainly appeared to be a forged piece. That step in the crankpin/big end gives me the willies too. That surely can't have worn too such a step. The chucking marks are making me think it may have had some clown fucking around with it.
"That step in the crankpin/big end gives me the willies too" - LOL well there's more to this..... "But the totally wankered crank didn't look like a forged one, just cast." - We'll be getting to this as well
Naahh. Ya don't wanna do that. Try it with an eighth of an inch of Lurpak slathered on it, with a strong brew o coffee. Leave the copper slip for the brake pads. LOL.
I think the 1200 crank failure looks like a twist failure, like something in the drive locked up.And also it may be a 1098 crank just with bigger cylinders for the capacity.
Interesting, I’m only a shed walla me self but I would have thought there’d be more damage to the journals if that had broken at speed like actually in the engine.
Is this common? A mate's 1199 had this same failure while at the track (Philip Island), rear wheel locked up and was lucky enough that he didn't have an off!!! Btw it was freshly serviced and had about 50,000kms...
A service doesn't include replacing the crankshaft. And yes - if you push the limits of the bike that increases the chances of a failure. Is it common? I've seen quite a few but I don't have any numbers to say if it's common
@@thedirtyworkshop Yeah I was totally blown away when he took it back to them and they told him it was the crankshaft that gave way. They did agree to replace the engine but as we know with the Panigale that means the whole thing would need to be pulled to bit, he did well in the end trading it in as is for a new V4s. Fair enough about the number, I'm just still dumbfounded why this happened in the first place, I thought maybe too much heavy engine breaking going into corners at the track? I mena he was taking it there quite regularly, but also getting it serviced accordingly...
Watched this channel for a few months now. Great stuff ! Am I correct in assuming that the failure is at the same side on both cranks ? If so, is it something to do with the loading, leading to metal fatigue ? and what can influence the failure. It's a shame you don't have both end bearings to comment on as I would suspect that one of these will be shot to pieces more than the other, or would they both be in the same state ?. I would also question the oiling as it appears to be inconsistent to both sides perhaps. The quality of engineering in the engine build on the first crank is questionable, especially for a race bike. I'm not an engineer, but this looks like a design flaw that has failed to take into consideration a key aspect of engine function, be it material quality, tolerances/fit and lubrication. A bit general I know, but something just doesn't seem right to see 2 failures almost exactly the same in engines that have done totally different mileage under different circumstances. It's almost as if it's going to fail, but we just don't know when.
"Watched this channel for a few months now. Great stuff ! Am I correct in assuming that the failure is at the same side on both cranks ? If so, is it something to do with the loading, leading to metal fatigue?" - yes it is..... more answers will come soon
If memory serves me correctly, from watching your videos, the combustion parameters for each cylinder are different due to the nature of the engine design...…….. closer ?
Even without knowing the material composition of the crank it should be possible to model the crank and calculate where it experiences most force in it's cycle. including the asymmetric input from the cylinders. I'm sure there is a model where you can add in the power from each cylinder and crank material properties etc but this might be F1 style territory, surely Ducati would have this as well ? The chamfering of the oil exit looks like an attempt to help mitigate a known problem - excessive wear due to the crank flexing too much. The only conclusion I can come to is that this is a design flaw, and the model should show the expected point of failure and crack propagation due to metal fatigue, which should match the actual failure. In other words, the crank is not strong enough in it's current configuration to do what is expected of it.
the multistrada is in the 1098 model family could it be anything to do with both motors are over bored to 1200cc and why they made the panigale motor ?? just a wild guess here ......and probably a stupid one
you should have just asked Toine.. He knows more about the bikes than most and which family of cranks can be used to give different capacities. Using the smaller 749 engine with different genuine ducati parts was a common one for racers who would build 800cc+ cheat engines for the supersport 600 classes when the 749 was allowed to be used against the 600cc 4 cylinder bikes.
You say there was thrust loading on the second one, maybe it was so high it made the crankshaft snap? Kind of like what you do with a turkey wishbone but squeezing instead of pulling. As to why that would happen, no idea. Is the engine a stressed member in that bike?
" Is the engine a stressed member in that bike?" yes - LOL but I don't think that has anything to do with it, or you misunderstand what that means.....
Stressed member usually refers to the casing of the engine. It becomes in a way part of the frame. Except for very small expansion due to thermodynamics when the engine is running on that casing it will have no affect on the rotating/moving parts. Therefore it should have no affect and should not be affected by bumps, etc as if not you would always be having issues. That is unless a bloody big truck ran into it.
Nice video mate. Just one thing though, it's a very good idea not to try to put the fracture surfaces back together. It usually mashes regions of microscopic features on the fracture surfaces (eg. fatigue striations) that can give a lot of information on the way the failure occurred, thus hindering a thorough fractographic analysis. I know you're not doing any microscopy in this video, but it is a good habit to get into. You can see the two halves fit together without fully putting them back together. I'm not trying to be a dick or anything, I'm a Metallurgist and do a lot of failure analyses as part of my job. When is part 2 being released?
Hi. Have you made any kind of modifications on your bike prior to the failure? how many horsepower did it made? I have a similar problem with one with 220 HP.
1. Thanks for your respons 2. If you have a greater amount og HP, then you allso a greater amount of Force at the piston and then further down to the crankshaft and Main bearings. The 7207 standard bearings isent strong enough for the load at 220HP. Hope i am clear :)
@@thedirtyworkshop yeah and just a regular question. I heard you talk about it in the valve lapping video. And might think this could be a better us if you were to do any work on a crankshaft instead of the chuck, since it delivers the pressure a lot better then simple chucks.
If this was turned and ground then I would think between centres would be best and the easiest to line up. Though you can use collets with a large off centre, one sided overhang, and its mass would cause an issue. A valve is simple to do in a collet due to its shape and size.
Very hard to believe you have a soft metal (bearing) wearing out a hard metal (crank). What I do believe is 2 possibilities. 1 they tried to sneak in more stroke on 1 cylinder. Yes we do those sorts of things. We knew tech guys would never check cylinders 1 and 4 (inline 4) so we would stroke just 1 and 4. or they simply just ground or polished (trying to clean up a pre-existing failure) that journal and did not have the proper tooling to keep it concentric. And for why the this modified crank broke. they machined away material in the wrong area on the web creating a sort of l shaped web when viewing it vertically. This makes the web want to flex. Its also another reason to see marks on that main journal.
"Very hard to believe you have a soft metal (bearing) wearing out a hard metal (crank)." - It doesn't matter if you believe it, it happens. And sneak more stroke? LOL don't make me laugh.
@@thedirtyworkshop show me. You can never wear that much material that evenly from a crank. And still look that good. unless you put sandpaper in place of the bearing. Its too bad falicon who did all of my work with cranks just closed. I would make you a staggered stroke crank so you can see. My friend. Don't get me started. As a matter of fact read this. I've been doing this since the late 80s n 90s 👍 www.google.com/amp/s/www.autoblog.com/amp/2016/05/09/honda-patents-engine-different-cylinder-displacements/
"You can never wear that much material that evenly from a crank. " - yes you can and it did. What you are saying it 40um of material is missing to change the stroke? LMAO - don't be stupid
The "stutter marks" on the web are from the milling machine as the cranks all start out with the wider counter weights and are machined back to get the weight they want to allow the engine to spin up how they want. The metal plugs will be densamet which puts back the weight to give the crank the correct balance factor. The further you go from the center line of the crank pin/main the less effect the weight has on the balance factor so you can remove quite a large amount of weight and only add a smaller amount of weight to the centre line to get the balance factor correct again.. So you will lose weight but not lose its balance factor... OH by the way.. I know what caused the break.... lol..Seen too many broken cranks in my time.. I did say of you wanted to ask me anything about cranks you can... So I would just say the offer is there but you need to correct the forging marks comment and the weights that have been added.. If you do remove one you will see it is densamet.. The guy you got the crank from knows what work I used to do and who for... lol..
"The "stutter marks" on the web are from the milling machine as the cranks all start out with the wider counter weights and are machined back to" - No shit, what I was commenting on was the state of them.....
@@thedirtyworkshop Ive been into turbo bikes for some time, take a gsxr1100, turbo stock rods crank, keep them below the red line & 350bhp no problem, with out a turbo take that same motor & rev it into the red a lot & they snap cranks.........
That's not rpm then it is? That's peak cylinder pressure... Higher rpm = higher turbo speeds = bang... but the velocity alone isn't killing them. This is the problem with just guessing
My guess: Made in China. (cheap material and production) Sad to say the good material time is over. Now days the look up what the material has to withstand and they just go a little over with it. Look at the early 90's and late 80's those engine can stand a shite load of more power and handle it with a charm. Like the 2JZ Toyota engine can take/make twice the power with stock parts all day long.
China is a double-edged sword. They can produce good stuff under licence. It's when they produce stuff that's not contracted by larger brands. Some Yamaha bikes are made in China, the RE05, the YBR125 for example.
Materials science and CAD technology has made it easier for engineers to make something that will just barely do the job instead of overengineering things to give themselves a margin of error. It also reduces material costs so stuff is cheaper.
spankeyfish I once heard a sying that went sonething like this. I have paraphrased it because i cant recal the exact phrase. "Any idiot can make a bridge that wont fall down, it takes a skilled engineer to build a bridge that only just wont fall down."
I remember back in the shop, a collegue of mine put together a new top end, he mixed up the piston pins.. it was a 14mm hole, and he put a 12mm piston pin it. THe twat did not even notice untill it fired up. that sound though! #RatleBike
looks like whatever compound they cast the cranks with just isn't up to the job. too brittle...too soft? either way....looks to be inadequate. i run across this with older v8 engines more often than i would like when the cranks are run much past the original engine speed design. forged is the way to go for performance engine reliability and cost be damned! :-) too often bean counters are to blame because they make the engineers design down to a price point. BOOM! seems to be the end result every damned time.
Oi! Oi! I know what's wrong with it!... It's in two pieces! Crank shafts need support on both ends to be any fucking good, so you can't have it in two pieces like that!
on the broken one? Probably - this was from a few years ago I believe - he kept it to one side - just incase there was a UA-cam channle that might require it in the future ;)
Those radial tooling marks on the webbing look like the product of a turn-turn broaching tool, like this whirling thing- ua-cam.com/video/jpOrhjlcyGM/v-deo.htmlm10s (sorry, it's a car crankshaft)
If you look at the finish on the sides of the crank - in the video link you sent - they're very smooth. These ones on the DUcati crank are dirty, maybe they lost some teeth of the inserts were not aligned - a bit shite to be honest
True, could be just one insert that's misaligned. My first thought was too high a feed rate for the tool rpm which would make sense if the feed & speed was set for machining the journal and they weren't concerned about the finish left on the webbing.
@@thedirtyworkshop For this specific case of crank splitting on bearing side, I would say (almost for certain) that excessive redlining, or improper gear change. It's called cyclic/fatigue loading. If you redline(load the crank) and then back to idle(unload) also called zero-max-zero and repeat it over a period of time, parts would break even if the max cyclic stress level is lower than the maximum tensile and yield stress. It's commonly known as fatigue. What's happened here is a text book example of a rotating shaft with bending load applied to it. The parting line will almost always be on the same spot very close to the bearings. When crank rotates, the shaft bends due to the mass of it, the outmost fibre of the shaft (close to the bearing at 0° will be in tension and the opposite fibre in compression. crank rotates 180° in the bearing with load and shaft stress level remaining the same. But now, at 180° the fibre with was loaded in compression at 0° is now in tension and vice versa until it fails. I hope it was clear 🙂
@@thedirtyworkshop Just to add to it, there is a reason why for example modern cars/bikes tell you when it wants you to change gear even way before the redline. It's not just for economical reasons, but most importantly for the engine life. Specially twins with their unique crank design, you mustn't stress the engine too much, especially V-twin. Here I must give Ducati credit for making incredibly robust L-twin (as they like to call it) engines over the years. There is a very good reason why there are currently only two bike makers confident enough to make 200+ bhp race bikes with V2/V4, Ducati and Aprilia (KTM distant 3rd) and people don't give them enough credit for what they have achieved, especially Ducati for perfecting the Desmo valve system.
"@The Workshop For this specific case of crank splitting on bearing side, I would say (almost for certain) that excessive redlining, or improper gear change. It's called cyclic/fatigue loading." Oh really? Thanks for the heads up LOL That was sarcasm.... But this isn't user error... This within the margins of operation. For some of the other points you make - The desmo system is more about invested returns and not perfecting a design that was worth it. Just from a shear BOM perspective. As for 200+ HP engines, loads of them are doing it, I don't understand what you mean by "currently only two"?
@@thedirtyworkshop From metallurgical and manufacturing point of views yes Ducati perfected the Desmo system. To my knowledge, there aren't any other bike maker other than Ducati and Aprilia willing(capable of) to produce high power V2/V4 engines. Honda scrapped their VFR/VTR series for a very good reason. Yamaha, harley, indian...etc don't produce high power V engines. Norton also did it. The distant 3rd and 4th are KTM and Guzzi. I am not aware of other engine makers.
nah, disappointed of these "believe me - I'm thinking right", because watched tv series. Matt! dam it - I;m watching Del's video - I'm master mechanic then! Not supporter to these theories - just like to listen/watch fairy tales and stuff
It takes someone who understands how something truly works to properly analyze a failure. You my friend are that person. Can't wait for the upcoming videos...I love this shite
There hasn't been that much crack in a bottom end since Whitney and Bobby B were in an airport.
LMAO!
Good one.
I like it!
@0:31 you know what else gives me the horn? When you upload a failure analysis video
brilliant video hope the next one is not too far away cheers
I've learnt that lesson a few times now. Definitely good advice mate.
Matt, the silver shiny crank from 1098 RS is a factory race bike built by Ducati Corse and sold only to race teams. The other dull grey one is a standard road bike item.
LOL yes I got that
Ducati model name/engine cc numbering can be confusing. A 1098 RS (based on the 1098 R homologation road bike) is actually 1198cc. And the base 1098 road bike is ... 1099cc. Because the marketing people wanted people to think about the 998 and not the 999. The multistrada 1200 engine (1198cc) is derived from the 1098, hence the crank markings. Mostly increased bore.
Brilliant video thank u👁️❤️👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍
The worst wear would probably be angled at about 30 degrees from vertical on the crank pin close to where the oil hole is.. That is where he highest load is on the crank.
Brilliant video mate cheers
It just needs some no more nails and it'll be sorted
bit of dolphin glaze and it will be an undetectable OEM style repair, Ducati do this all the time
I think the technical term for the second crank is fucked, it looks very much like material failure but it looks like it has been levered on one side for it to fail in that way. The first looks like a possible oiling problem on the bearing of the horizontal conrod causing excessive wear and uneven stress on the crank, the step you could feel was very clear on the camera. If it has been reground I would query the person who did it because it doesn't seem to have been very well. Great video though.
Very interesting, Matt.
Fucking awesome Matt. Can't wait for the next vid in the series. Cheers.
Im gonna take a stab and ask if the offset wrist pin hole is the factory size? Did they make it bigger for some reason and machine off the radius
Doesnt appear to be a radius on the sharp edge of the hole. Stress concentration?
Very glad to learn even the pros have to stare at the micrometer scales for a second trying to figure out what the hell's going on
You all prolly dont give a damn but does any of you know a tool to get back into an Instagram account?
I was dumb lost my login password. I would appreciate any tips you can give me!
@Curtis Marcus instablaster :)
Be aggressive, be be aggressive.
Just one girly at the tourney and it’s kill or be killed.
I love baby cakes
Would it be a L twin if the vertical cylinder had a longer stroke then the horizontal one. Half stroker.
All I can think of is how much is that going to cost , and will the next one do the same. Italian stuff is nice to look at.
My mate Dell could tack weld that perfectly better than new.
So looking at the broken crank and the other for that matter, what sort of things would we be looking for to ascertain if it was caused by a moulding failure i.e. poor or contaminated metal during the manufacturing process?
LOL we'll get to that.
This has just happened to my 748, straight after I just rebuilt and replaced the gearbox.
Lol!!!!!!!!!!!!! I couldn't believe the chuck marks on the main journal, what a butcher. I don't know much about Ducati's but I'm guessing the engine had a misfire or detonation that caused that crank to break.
I thought you had the audio and video out of sink slightly but it turns out movements you make naturally are just a little behind what you say. I'll be keeping an eye on myself now to check if it's common or not. I'm not sure how i feel about the idea of that.
This seems to be a reoccurring pattern on them Dew 🐈 ee's. Would you say this is the case, Matt? I mean is this a common problem they have? And if so, is it just the 1098 family? Thanks man.
Which bike manufacturer makes the best crankshafts? I mean like the lightest and strongest ones.
LMOA! I don't know - tell you what, send me a new one from each manufacturer and we'll have a look. Does anyone know the answer to this, I mean in reality does anyone know LOL
Maybe someone who rebuilds track bikes, someone like Mr. Ducati Man but Mr. Other Different Makes Man.
funcounting del would know for sure !!! 😎
Matt....Good stuff...Scientific mind at work again.Wish you would have pointed out what
end drives the clutch...ect....necessary to determine loads....Thanks.
OOHH. Ey Matt.
I was just thinking, and I can't tell properly from the video. And I'm also not sure if it is of any import. But the totally wankered crank didn't look like a forged one, just cast. The gorgeous, shiny, machined cracked one certainly appeared to be a forged piece.
That step in the crankpin/big end gives me the willies too. That surely can't have worn too such a step. The chucking marks are making me think it may have had some clown fucking around with it.
"That step in the crankpin/big end gives me the willies too"
- LOL well there's more to this.....
"But the totally wankered crank didn't look like a forged one, just cast."
- We'll be getting to this as well
is it weird that the more i see you put that copper grease on a biscuit i want to try one
Naahh. Ya don't wanna do that.
Try it with an eighth of an inch of Lurpak slathered on it, with a strong brew o coffee. Leave the copper slip for the brake pads. LOL.
I think the 1200 crank failure looks like a twist failure, like something in the drive locked up.And also it may be a 1098 crank just with bigger cylinders for the capacity.
You mean a tortional failure........ and no
@@thedirtyworkshop Yeah ok just a thought, have you done a follow up vid on the cranks ? Can't find it.
In racing applications they use the same dimensions but use a stronger metal
Fucking Brilliant! Awesome! Upload part two!
Interesting, I’m only a shed walla me self but I would have thought there’d be more damage to the journals if that had broken at speed like actually in the engine.
Hi, is it possible to share your Solidworks file for the crankshaft CAD modelling. I find it is very useful for my research paper. Thanks
Yes, but there is a price
The Workshop maybe you can send the detail of the price to my email? angyoonzuan@gmail.com
Is this common? A mate's 1199 had this same failure while at the track (Philip Island), rear wheel locked up and was lucky enough that he didn't have an off!!! Btw it was freshly serviced and had about 50,000kms...
A service doesn't include replacing the crankshaft. And yes - if you push the limits of the bike that increases the chances of a failure. Is it common? I've seen quite a few but I don't have any numbers to say if it's common
@@thedirtyworkshop Yeah I was totally blown away when he took it back to them and they told him it was the crankshaft that gave way. They did agree to replace the engine but as we know with the Panigale that means the whole thing would need to be pulled to bit, he did well in the end trading it in as is for a new V4s. Fair enough about the number, I'm just still dumbfounded why this happened in the first place, I thought maybe too much heavy engine breaking going into corners at the track? I mena he was taking it there quite regularly, but also getting it serviced accordingly...
Please send it to del saying can you explain why it's broke and how to fix it hahahaha
Watched this channel for a few months now. Great stuff ! Am I correct in assuming that the failure is at the same side on both cranks ? If so, is it something to do with the loading, leading to metal fatigue ? and what can influence the failure. It's a shame you don't have both end bearings to comment on as I would suspect that one of these will be shot to pieces more than the other, or would they both be in the same state ?. I would also question the oiling as it appears to be inconsistent to both sides perhaps. The quality of engineering in the engine build on the first crank is questionable, especially for a race bike.
I'm not an engineer, but this looks like a design flaw that has failed to take into consideration a key aspect of engine function, be it material quality, tolerances/fit and lubrication. A bit general I know, but something just doesn't seem right to see 2 failures almost exactly the same in engines that have done totally different mileage under different circumstances. It's almost as if it's going to fail, but we just don't know when.
"Watched this channel for a few months now. Great stuff ! Am I correct in assuming that the failure is at the same side on both cranks ? If so, is it something to do with the loading, leading to metal fatigue?"
- yes it is..... more answers will come soon
If memory serves me correctly, from watching your videos, the combustion parameters for each cylinder are different due to the nature of the engine design...…….. closer ?
Possibly closer LOL
Even without knowing the material composition of the crank it should be possible to model the crank and calculate where it experiences most force in it's cycle. including the asymmetric input from the cylinders. I'm sure there is a model where you can add in the power from each cylinder and crank material properties etc but this might be F1 style territory, surely Ducati would have this as well ?
The chamfering of the oil exit looks like an attempt to help mitigate a known problem - excessive wear due to the crank flexing too much. The only conclusion I can come to is that this is a design flaw, and the model should show the expected point of failure and crack propagation due to metal fatigue, which should match the actual failure. In other words, the crank is not strong enough in it's current configuration to do what is expected of it.
the multistrada is in the 1098 model family could it be anything to do with both motors are over bored to 1200cc and why they made the panigale motor ?? just a wild guess here ......and probably a stupid one
There's more to this that I'm just finding out now LOL - update soon
you should have just asked Toine.. He knows more about the bikes than most and which family of cranks can be used to give different capacities. Using the smaller 749 engine with different genuine ducati parts was a common one for racers who would build 800cc+ cheat engines for the supersport 600 classes when the 749 was allowed to be used against the 600cc 4 cylinder bikes.
conchoidal fracture too brittle?
You say there was thrust loading on the second one, maybe it was so high it made the crankshaft snap? Kind of like what you do with a turkey wishbone but squeezing instead of pulling. As to why that would happen, no idea. Is the engine a stressed member in that bike?
" Is the engine a stressed member in that bike?"
yes - LOL but I don't think that has anything to do with it, or you misunderstand what that means.....
Well, if the engine is a stressed member and the guy hits a bump at high speed/revs it may fuck the crankshaft due the engine getting compressed, no?
@@funcounting
No
Why not?
Stressed member usually refers to the casing of the engine. It becomes in a way part of the frame. Except for very small expansion due to thermodynamics when the engine is running on that casing it will have no affect on the rotating/moving parts. Therefore it should have no affect and should not be affected by bumps, etc as if not you would always be having issues. That is unless a bloody big truck ran into it.
And now you know why Fucati does not have a factory endurance team.
Can you not just use no more nails and old filler for a nice smooth finish. You could do it in only a few.... months
MASTER OF ZOOM (in Matt's voice)
JB weld would fix that.
Nice video mate. Just one thing though, it's a very good idea not to try to put the fracture surfaces back together. It usually mashes regions of microscopic features on the fracture surfaces (eg. fatigue striations) that can give a lot of information on the way the failure occurred, thus hindering a thorough fractographic analysis. I know you're not doing any microscopy in this video, but it is a good habit to get into. You can see the two halves fit together without fully putting them back together. I'm not trying to be a dick or anything, I'm a Metallurgist and do a lot of failure analyses as part of my job.
When is part 2 being released?
This is true, however these have been through the post before I ever saw them LOL
No doubt for whoever found it in two bits, it was the first thing they did! Always is lol.
You can Glue it back together with JB Weld
Nah, some no more nails
Fucking hell, no wonder you spend so much time in your garage if a crankshaft gives you the horn hahahahah!
Looks like they added Heavy metal
It's scored oil starvation
*THATS ALOT OF DAMAGE*
Love it.. the three jaw chuck is worthless.. 4 Jaw is more accurate. I'm a machinist so I know.. Haha.
Hi. Have you made any kind of modifications on your bike prior to the failure? how many horsepower did it made? I have a similar problem with one with 220 HP.
1) it's not my bike
2) The bike was stock
3) why would HP make any difference?
1. Thanks for your respons
2. If you have a greater amount og HP, then you allso a greater amount of Force at the piston and then further down to the crankshaft and Main bearings.
The 7207 standard bearings isent strong enough for the load at 220HP.
Hope i am clear :)
"7207 standard bearings isent strong enough for the load at 220HP."
- Say what?
Nop i think its a torque torsion brake the crank its weak on the con rod
Why not make a dedicated collet chuck to grab it instead of a 3 or a 4 chuck so you won't have teething marks?
IS that a question for me?
@@thedirtyworkshop yeah and just a regular question. I heard you talk about it in the valve lapping video. And might think this could be a better us if you were to do any work on a crankshaft instead of the chuck, since it delivers the pressure a lot better then simple chucks.
yes a collet would be a lot better
If this was turned and ground then I would think between centres would be best and the easiest to line up. Though you can use collets with a large off centre, one sided overhang, and its mass would cause an issue. A valve is simple to do in a collet due to its shape and size.
amazing never ducati
Very hard to believe you have a soft metal (bearing) wearing out a hard metal (crank). What I do believe is 2 possibilities. 1 they tried to sneak in more stroke on 1 cylinder. Yes we do those sorts of things. We knew tech guys would never check cylinders 1 and 4 (inline 4) so we would stroke just 1 and 4.
or they simply just ground or polished (trying to clean up a pre-existing failure) that journal and did not have the proper tooling to keep it concentric.
And for why the this modified crank broke. they machined away material in the wrong area on the web creating a sort of l shaped web when viewing it vertically. This makes the web want to flex. Its also another reason to see marks on that main journal.
"Very hard to believe you have a soft metal (bearing) wearing out a hard metal (crank)." - It doesn't matter if you believe it, it happens. And sneak more stroke? LOL don't make me laugh.
@@thedirtyworkshop show me. You can never wear that much material that evenly from a crank. And still look that good. unless you put sandpaper in place of the bearing. Its too bad falicon who did all of my work with cranks just closed. I would make you a staggered stroke crank so you can see.
My friend. Don't get me started.
As a matter of fact read this. I've been doing this since the late 80s n 90s 👍
www.google.com/amp/s/www.autoblog.com/amp/2016/05/09/honda-patents-engine-different-cylinder-displacements/
"You can never wear that much material that evenly from a crank. " - yes you can and it did.
What you are saying it 40um of material is missing to change the stroke? LMAO - don't be stupid
The "stutter marks" on the web are from the milling machine as the cranks all start out with the wider counter weights and are machined back to get the weight they want to allow the engine to spin up how they want. The metal plugs will be densamet which puts back the weight to give the crank the correct balance factor. The further you go from the center line of the crank pin/main the less effect the weight has on the balance factor so you can remove quite a large amount of weight and only add a smaller amount of weight to the centre line to get the balance factor correct again.. So you will lose weight but not lose its balance factor...
OH by the way.. I know what caused the break.... lol..Seen too many broken cranks in my time..
I did say of you wanted to ask me anything about cranks you can... So I would just say the offer is there but you need to correct the forging marks comment and the weights that have been added.. If you do remove one you will see it is densamet.. The guy you got the crank from knows what work I used to do and who for... lol..
"OH by the way.. I know what caused the break"
- go on then......
"The "stutter marks" on the web are from the milling machine as the cranks all start out with the wider counter weights and are machined
back to"
- No shit, what I was commenting on was the state of them.....
"but you need to correct the forging marks comment and the weights that have been added.. "
- Do I? LOL
If you dont want a Del picking fault.. I would say so.... lol..
You didn't say the webs were milled and it was from the forging. its not... Its from being machined.
No more nails and balance it, jobs on.
Assuming no faults in the crank & correct assembly cranks break due to over reving........
Because revs = cracks?
@@thedirtyworkshop Yeah sure, over revving kills cranks rods etc.....
Because? By how much?.....
@@thedirtyworkshop Ive been into turbo bikes for some time, take a gsxr1100, turbo stock rods crank, keep them below the red line & 350bhp no problem, with out a turbo take that same motor & rev it into the red a lot & they snap cranks.........
That's not rpm then it is? That's peak cylinder pressure... Higher rpm = higher turbo speeds = bang... but the velocity alone isn't killing them. This is the problem with just guessing
That much wear will have removed the case on the journal they are nitrided for low distortion case depth is very low but hard as fuck
Ha! You said "doo doo."
My guess: Made in China. (cheap material and production) Sad to say the good material time is over. Now days the look up what the material has to withstand and they just go a little over with it. Look at the early 90's and late 80's those engine can stand a shite load of more power and handle it with a charm. Like the 2JZ Toyota engine can take/make twice the power with stock parts all day long.
China is a double-edged sword. They can produce good stuff under licence. It's when they produce stuff that's not contracted by larger brands. Some Yamaha bikes are made in China, the RE05, the YBR125 for example.
Materials science and CAD technology has made it easier for engineers to make something that will just barely do the job instead of overengineering things to give themselves a margin of error. It also reduces material costs so stuff is cheaper.
spankeyfish
I once heard a sying that went sonething like this. I have paraphrased it because i cant recal the exact phrase.
"Any idiot can make a bridge that wont fall down, it takes a skilled engineer to build a bridge that only just wont fall down."
I remember back in the shop, a collegue of mine put together a new top end, he mixed up the piston pins.. it was a 14mm hole, and he put a 12mm piston pin it. THe twat did not even notice untill it fired up. that sound though! #RatleBike
how the fuck could you not notice the slop?? shouldn't be near engines. EVER
no nails matt do the job on it lol
Looks weirdly familiar...
The surface on the crankshaft webs seem to be the result of crankshaft milling:
ua-cam.com/video/egv3QbyZadw/v-deo.html
looks like whatever compound they cast the cranks with just isn't up to the job.
too brittle...too soft? either way....looks to be inadequate. i run across this with older v8 engines more often than i would like when the cranks are run much past the original engine speed design. forged is the way to go for performance engine reliability and cost be damned! :-) too often bean counters are to blame because they make the engineers design down to a price point.
BOOM! seems to be the end result every damned time.
Some idiot put it back together with copper grease trying to hide the chuck marks 😉🤪
eh up, chuck!
Oi! Oi! I know what's wrong with it!... It's in two pieces! Crank shafts need support on both ends to be any fucking good, so you can't have it in two pieces like that!
cadburys crankshaft
There is jaw marks on both sides.
Was the crankcase cracked too ?
on the broken one? Probably - this was from a few years ago I believe - he kept it to one side - just incase there was a UA-cam channle that might require it in the future ;)
Those radial tooling marks on the webbing look like the product of a turn-turn broaching tool, like this whirling thing- ua-cam.com/video/jpOrhjlcyGM/v-deo.htmlm10s
(sorry, it's a car crankshaft)
If you look at the finish on the sides of the crank - in the video link you sent - they're very smooth. These ones on the DUcati crank are dirty, maybe they lost some teeth of the inserts were not aligned - a bit shite to be honest
True, could be just one insert that's misaligned. My first thought was too high a feed rate for the tool rpm which would make sense if the feed & speed was set for machining the journal and they weren't concerned about the finish left on the webbing.
Rider's input 99% the cause of major engine failure, 1% other causes, vibration, imperfections or lack of maintenance.
And you back this up with what?
@@thedirtyworkshop For this specific case of crank splitting on bearing side, I would say (almost for certain) that excessive redlining, or improper gear change. It's called cyclic/fatigue loading. If you redline(load the crank) and then back to idle(unload) also called zero-max-zero and repeat it over a period of time, parts would break even if the max cyclic stress level is lower than the maximum tensile and yield stress. It's commonly known as fatigue.
What's happened here is a text book example of a rotating shaft with bending load applied to it. The parting line will almost always be on the same spot very close to the bearings. When crank rotates, the shaft bends due to the mass of it, the outmost fibre of the shaft (close to the bearing at 0° will be in tension and the opposite fibre in compression. crank rotates 180° in the bearing with load and shaft stress level remaining the same. But now, at 180° the fibre with was loaded in compression at 0° is now in tension and vice versa until it fails. I hope it was clear 🙂
@@thedirtyworkshop Just to add to it, there is a reason why for example modern cars/bikes tell you when it wants you to change gear even way before the redline. It's not just for economical reasons, but most importantly for the engine life. Specially twins with their unique crank design, you mustn't stress the engine too much, especially V-twin. Here I must give Ducati credit for making incredibly robust L-twin (as they like to call it) engines over the years. There is a very good reason why there are currently only two bike makers confident enough to make 200+ bhp race bikes with V2/V4, Ducati and Aprilia (KTM distant 3rd) and people don't give them enough credit for what they have achieved, especially Ducati for perfecting the Desmo valve system.
"@The Workshop For this specific case of crank splitting on bearing side, I would say (almost for certain) that excessive redlining, or improper gear change. It's called cyclic/fatigue loading."
Oh really? Thanks for the heads up LOL That was sarcasm....
But this isn't user error... This within the margins of operation.
For some of the other points you make -
The desmo system is more about invested returns and not perfecting a design that was worth it. Just from a shear BOM perspective. As for 200+ HP engines, loads of them are doing it, I don't understand what you mean by "currently only two"?
@@thedirtyworkshop
From metallurgical and manufacturing point of views yes Ducati perfected the Desmo system. To my knowledge, there aren't any other bike maker other than Ducati and Aprilia willing(capable of) to produce high power V2/V4 engines. Honda scrapped their VFR/VTR series for a very good reason. Yamaha, harley, indian...etc don't produce high power V engines. Norton also did it. The distant 3rd and 4th are KTM and Guzzi. I am not aware of other engine makers.
Clean up your words.
Clean up my words? Or shut the fuck up...
Uhh yeah dude?
Oh nvm faith no more
nah, disappointed of these "believe me - I'm thinking right", because watched tv series. Matt! dam it - I;m watching Del's video - I'm master mechanic then!
Not supporter to these theories - just like to listen/watch fairy tales and stuff
Are you Guy Martin?
No lol
Its Italian, say no more !
john mason
So are multiple F1 winners Ferrari, multiple world rally champions Lancia and of course multiple world super bike champions Ducati.......
You think like this.. lathes crankshafts marks..
durbahn.de/1098%20Crank%20rework%20Peter2.jpg
Using a steady rest would be fine - with some grease in there, but why the fuck aren't they turning it between centres? Idiot
First
this shit has to stop lol
Don't do that Matt I love the channel lol
Microns? What? Are you gonna measure it in hogsheads next...christ, use thousands like a real man.
We are not in the 1940's anymore.
The only measurements I understand are cunthairs.
Welcome to the rest of the world where 7 billion people classify imperial units as "retarded units".
Anders Juel Jensen what i told you, we can use both, we just like fucking with the rest of the world
Anders Juel Jensen
Feet, inches and miles are retarded units of measure.
Decimal inch measuremnts (thousanths etc) actually are pretty good.