I love Richard Bushman and his sincerity. I think he described it perfectly when he refers that through kindness and goodness comes truth. With that said, it also shows the validity to the questions of the CES Letter. If kindness and goodness is the important part of our beliefs, then we can’t say we as Latter-day Saints have a monopoly on truth. One of the arguments of the CES letter is that the church is not the one and only true church and this episode demonstrates that point.
A comment to around minute 13, when the interviewer talks about listening to music and feeling the holy spirit. I grew up in the Church and was always taught that only members have the Holy Spirit and that we can feel him in different ways. I’ve been out of the Church for 2 years now and I can tell you that nothing has changed. I still have the same intuitions and feelings as before. I still feel touched when I listen to music and even cry when something is really moving. I still have an inner compass and feeling about what is right and wrong for me and my family. I have heard the same from so many people who have left the Church. From all of the lessons at Church about the Holy Ghost, I was always so worried about losing that Holy Ghost when I’m not following all of the Church’s rules, but now I‘m learning that either all people have him with us or he‘s just made up. Probably just our brain putting all of our experiences and things we have learned together, and telling us what we believe is right or wrong according to what information has been saved in our brains 🤷🏻♀️ I don’t believe in a monopoly of the Holy Ghost anymore and that God only lets a tiny, tiny percentage of the whole world‘s population be able to have the Spirit with them. Would a loving, fair and just Heavenly Father really do that?
40:04 Bushman’s answer to “how can you believe in Joseph Smith?” is essentially: “I believe in and follow Mormonism’s teachings about the right way to live and, lo and behold, I end up feeling justified that I am living the right way.” Imagine that. This is true of all religions and belief systems.
Dr. Bushman's comment about those of other faiths having truth (18:00) was insightful. All the people of faith I have been privileged to get to know have had deep spiritual confirmations of their beliefs, regardless of what those beliefs were.
This is one of the things that lead me out of the church from my mission. I met person after person of different faiths who were also 4th, 5th, 6th generation members who all had equally impressive testimonies with spiritual witness testimonies and unexplainable miracles to back up their firm belief that they were a part of the true church. But what hit me hard is many of them were able to admit the paradox, that no matter how confident they think they are right, they would be hypocrites to tell me therefore I could not know I am right. Many of them came to terms that therefor perhaps all are "right" in their own way. We all agreed that at minimum if God is a loving God he clearly won't condemn some of us for thinking we were right if it ends up we weren't in the end. At that point I only preached the gospel to those that had no belief whatsoever.
ChatGPT generated timestamps 0:00 - Introduction and Welcome 0:15 - Richard Bushman’s Background 1:00 - Testimony and Spiritual Witness 3:00 - Balancing Intellect and Faith 4:30 - Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling 9:30 - Prayer and Revelation 12:00 - Coping with Doubt 17:00 - Respecting Other Faiths 32:00 - Trusting Spiritual Feelings 34:00 - Advice for Those Hurt by the Church 36:30 - Studying Church History 39:00 - Conclusion and Testimony
I greatly respect Dr Bushman's work. But the bottom line, with all knowledgeable historians in the church. They come to a point where they just decide they believe in spite of the facts showing otherwise. And that's fine as long as they do no harm to others. But Dr Bushman also admits that the book of mormon is not historical or literal and Joseph didn' t bring about the church the way he claimed.
He did no such thing. Dr. Bushman said no such thing. Where did he say the Book of Mormon was not historical or literal? Nowhere. As usual, this is criticism made up out of thin air. Nor does he say the restored Church of Jesus Christ came any other way than how the Prophet Joseph himself declared.
@@mgeuleinstsear Oh, I understand that. It's just what the comment I was responding to seemed to be getting at. Also, often when I ask people what one should believe in after leaving Mormonism if they even answer at all the answer tends to be something like, "Oh... I don't know... pretty much anything except Mormonism."
@@livingtruth2374Oh, you must not be familiar with what Bushman has said. He has definitely stated that the narrative the Church and Joseph Smith told us is not true and needs to be changed : ua-cam.com/video/K06ysskTUS4/v-deo.htmlsi=DiCmNMTnrE5D4B7c He has also stated many times that it is interesting that there is so much 19th century Protestant thought found in the BoM: "The Book of Mormon has a lot of nineteenth-century Protestant material in it, both in terms of theology and of wording... While reading Alma in the Book of Mormon | began to google long phrases from the sermons, and they came up in sermons in very much the same doctrinal context. All the talk about Jesus in the Book of Mormon, its glory we would say, has a 19th-century ring to it." Richard Bushman, Mormon Historian People have also found lots and lots of plagiarism in the BoM from various religious texts and sermons. A lot of things in the BoM that are anachronistic.
Been reading rough stone rolling and it’s interesting to see Joseph Smith as your next door neighbor and live and understand the setting of his time. Yes the church has been restored but you also see how the lord used the things of his time to help bring it about. Love it!!
I love Richard Bushman and his sincerity. I think he described it perfectly when he refers that through kindness and goodness comes truth. With that said, it also shows the validity to the questions of the CES Letter. If kindness and goodness is the important part of our beliefs, then we can’t say we as Latter-day Saints have a monopoly on truth. One of the arguments of the CES letter is that the church is not the one and only true church and this episode demonstrates that point.
THIS!🙏
A comment to around minute 13, when the interviewer talks about listening to music and feeling the holy spirit.
I grew up in the Church and was always taught that only members have the Holy Spirit and that we can feel him in different ways.
I’ve been out of the Church for 2 years now and I can tell you that nothing has changed. I still have the same intuitions and feelings as before. I still feel touched when I listen to music and even cry when something is really moving.
I still have an inner compass and feeling about what is right and wrong for me and my family.
I have heard the same from so many people who have left the Church.
From all of the lessons at Church about the Holy Ghost, I was always so worried about losing that Holy Ghost when I’m not following all of the Church’s rules, but now I‘m learning that either all people have him with us or he‘s just made up. Probably just our brain putting all of our experiences and things we have learned together, and telling us what we believe is right or wrong according to what information has been saved in our brains 🤷🏻♀️
I don’t believe in a monopoly of the Holy Ghost anymore and that God only lets a tiny, tiny percentage of the whole world‘s population be able to have the Spirit with them. Would a loving, fair and just Heavenly Father really do that?
Yep, "feeling the spirit" happens for people of all religions. The video "Spiritual Witnesses" here on UA-cam gives plenty of examples of this.
The church would like you to feel like they control these things.
40:04 Bushman’s answer to “how can you believe in Joseph Smith?” is essentially: “I believe in and follow Mormonism’s teachings about the right way to live and, lo and behold, I end up feeling justified that I am living the right way.” Imagine that.
This is true of all religions and belief systems.
Such a different church from what it was in the 70s 80s and 90s. Interesting how it's changing, with the times.
Dr. Bushman's comment about those of other faiths having truth (18:00) was insightful. All the people of faith I have been privileged to get to know have had deep spiritual confirmations of their beliefs, regardless of what those beliefs were.
This is one of the things that lead me out of the church from my mission. I met person after person of different faiths who were also 4th, 5th, 6th generation members who all had equally impressive testimonies with spiritual witness testimonies and unexplainable miracles to back up their firm belief that they were a part of the true church. But what hit me hard is many of them were able to admit the paradox, that no matter how confident they think they are right, they would be hypocrites to tell me therefore I could not know I am right. Many of them came to terms that therefor perhaps all are "right" in their own way. We all agreed that at minimum if God is a loving God he clearly won't condemn some of us for thinking we were right if it ends up we weren't in the end. At that point I only preached the gospel to those that had no belief whatsoever.
My favourite historian within the church, a humble and beautiful human being, a pillar of wisdom and light.❤
and king of gaslighting. 👑
Wish you all the best
@@renatep.7566 and a king of mental gymnastics!
Saying that a stone is some sort of advanced communication device is stretching it
ChatGPT generated timestamps
0:00 - Introduction and Welcome
0:15 - Richard Bushman’s Background
1:00 - Testimony and Spiritual Witness
3:00 - Balancing Intellect and Faith
4:30 - Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling
9:30 - Prayer and Revelation
12:00 - Coping with Doubt
17:00 - Respecting Other Faiths
32:00 - Trusting Spiritual Feelings
34:00 - Advice for Those Hurt by the Church
36:30 - Studying Church History
39:00 - Conclusion and Testimony
I greatly respect Dr Bushman's work. But the bottom line, with all knowledgeable historians in the church. They come to a point where they just decide they believe in spite of the facts showing otherwise. And that's fine as long as they do no harm to others. But Dr Bushman also admits that the book of mormon is not historical or literal and Joseph didn' t bring about the church the way he claimed.
Are you recommending atheism instead?
He did no such thing. Dr. Bushman said no such thing. Where did he say the Book of Mormon was not historical or literal? Nowhere. As usual, this is criticism made up out of thin air. Nor does he say the restored Church of Jesus Christ came any other way than how the Prophet Joseph himself declared.
@@CMZIEBARTHLeaving Mormonism doesn’t necessarily mean becoming an Atheist 🤷🏻♀️
@@mgeuleinstsear Oh, I understand that. It's just what the comment I was responding to seemed to be getting at.
Also, often when I ask people what one should believe in after leaving Mormonism if they even answer at all the answer tends to be something like, "Oh... I don't know... pretty much anything except Mormonism."
@@livingtruth2374Oh, you must not be familiar with what Bushman has said.
He has definitely stated that the narrative the Church and Joseph Smith told us is not true and needs to be changed :
ua-cam.com/video/K06ysskTUS4/v-deo.htmlsi=DiCmNMTnrE5D4B7c
He has also stated many times that it is interesting that there is so much 19th century Protestant thought found in the BoM:
"The Book of Mormon has a lot of nineteenth-century Protestant material in it, both in terms of theology and of wording... While reading Alma in the Book of Mormon | began to google long phrases from the sermons, and they came up in sermons in very much the same doctrinal context. All the talk about Jesus in the Book of Mormon, its glory we would say, has a 19th-century ring to it."
Richard Bushman, Mormon Historian
People have also found lots and lots of plagiarism in the BoM from various religious texts and sermons. A lot of things in the BoM that are anachronistic.
Wow u guys got the Bushman? U really don't mess around
Love these podcasts!
Great interview!
Been reading rough stone rolling and it’s interesting to see Joseph Smith as your next door neighbor and live and understand the setting of his time. Yes the church has been restored but you also see how the lord used the things of his time to help bring it about. Love it!!