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Real quick, Midsommar was actively created in a way that stimulates the proccess. Even the lighting was designed to in a way brainwash the viewers. That's why I'd categorize it as horror and I definitely agree it is very much not a good for her movie. The fact I was smiling while feel disturbed left me deeply unsettled. I could feel it happening and was still in a way powerless to stop it. In a way I feel the movie was created to showcase just how powerless and out of control a cult can make you feel even just by watching it.
For real! It wasn’t even abusive, just distant and toxic. Christian is not a good boyfriend, but that’s not because he’s trying to control her or isolate her, it’s because he doesn’t want to be with her but doesn’t have the balls to leave. People act like he’s the devil incarnate but he’s just… a guy. Not a good boyfriend, but not a monster who deserved death either.
It depends. The meme is about a woman doing something horrible to the absurd and being like...good for her. If you see Arrested Development and are familiar with Lucille as a character the meaning is obvious. A better example of "good for her" would actually be the movie Carrie. However in that movie she is pretty well justified so you might instead be better choosing Species.
@@justcommenting4981 not sure Carrie would be justified. I havent seen it in years though, so i might be misremembering, but doesnt she indiscriminately kill people?
The premise of Gaslight reminds me of when my mother was going through her divorce. She had a restraining order against my (step) father so he would wait until she left the house to go inside and do things like move around stuff on her bedside table, open windows on her computer, or steal one shoe in a pair. Legit just to fuck with her, I had to get her cameras because she legitimately felt like she was going crazy.
One thing I find PARTICULARLY depressing, in Carrie, is that at the end - after the mother who has abused her all her life tries to murder her- she still literally clings to her mother as the grief of having to defend herself from her first and most awful bully causes her powers to go out of control. Yet, I have never been able to find an ounce of pity for any of the kids she killed, even after all these years.
To me it felt like that moment really captured how miserable having abusive parents can be. That despite all the harm these people have caused you, a part of you will always crave their love and affection
@@idigamstudios7463 And her mother paying for her abuse without Carrie having to do it herself. I was SO glad the author got rid of this monster of a mom without traumatizing that poor girl again.
I always felt pity for the kids who weren't laughing. The destruction of the gym is when the movie moves into true horror (the kind that makes you say "make it stop"), and I think it was intended to be. I can't blame Carrie, she had obviously snapped in some fundamental way, but that doesn't mean what she did wasn't horrific...and I think that, if she'd lived, she'd have been horrified at her own actions. The only cathartic deaths were those of the evil ringleader girl and John Travolta's character, and of course of Carrie's evil mother.
This reminds me of the very related character archetype of "The Traumabitch," coined by youtuber Hazel in her two-hour Elfen Leid video essay as, "the kind of character who you see being a mess and you say, 'yep, I'm gonna make that bitch my private twitter icon. The kind of character that's relatable in all the ways she's unsympathetic and dysfunctional... like so many feminine or queer monsters in the past, her rage is cathartic even when it's not communicated to the audience as moral or relatable."
Even in revenge - which in itself is destructive and unpleasant - women have to abide by the rules and be nice and clean in their rage. Men destroy all the time without consequences and women need to say "sorry" for even fantazising about such a things. No man would be ashamed for liking John Wick - but God forbid a woman fantasizes acting violently as a result of trauma. No, women are supposed to passively suffer or kill themselves silently - only men are allowed to actively influencing the world around them. A man's perceived need for revenge triggered WW1. Maybe that's why the Trauma Bitch feels so "right". Why are only men's feelings allowed to change the world?
I always saw _Carrie_ (the original, haven't seen the remake) as a tragedy. Carrie, had she lived, would have been horrified at her own actions that killed the innocent along with the guilty. Only when she destroyed the car speeding at her did I feel any sense of triumph. The destruction of the gym was (and, I think, was intended to be) a moment of horror. It was revenge delivered onto the wrong targets.
i read and loved the book (despite king’s fixation with every character’s breasts…) and i think you totally got it. what’s most disappointing to me about the original movie is that the kids boisterously laugh at and mock Carrie immediately when it’s described in the book as a slow, anxious laughter from teens who had no idea how to react. obviously most viewers aren’t super down with high school massacres, but the movie erased a lot of nuance to get that good for her moment. then again, victims of bullying deserve their cathartic movie - but god forbid we cast a fat girl with acne like in the book
@@ratgurl1 - As I recall from the movie, only the bully's friend/confidant(s?) were laughing...the other students were just kind of staring, dumbfounded and not sure how to react. It's only in Carrie's mind that they all start laughing, as her mother's words ("they're all going to laugh at you!") echo over and over. I mean, she even sees the nice gym teacher "laughing at her," and we see explicitly that that didn't happen in reality.
I think this happends in all of king's works, he interprets horror as a tragedy, and thats why people engage a lot with his books (and thats why we, Stephen King fans, hate the shinning adaptation from kubrik)
just rewatched the prom scene and you’re so right!!! my childhood brain didn’t pick up on that (although it seems a number of other people in the comment section made the same interpretation). interestingly pretty much everyone is laughing in the book, albeit nervously like i wrote, but the scenes we are meant to take as true in the movie just have the explicit villains laughing. clearly king and de palma had slightly different great ideas and i think the book nerd in me has a bias towards the description we get from a survivor in the book
Of course, a bit question hanging over the end of the movie is whether or not those other kids really ARE innocent. Sure, they didn't set up the blood shower trap. But they did let her suffer years of abuse at the hands of the Queen Bee, and many of them did point and laugh at earlier abuses. Is "I didn't do anything when I should have" the same as "I didn't do anything wrong", in terms of innocence?
I was in an evangelical christian cult when Midsommar came out. It was such an emotional experience that I became obsessed with why it was so powerful and I eventually came to the conclusion that I was indoctrinated and needed to be deprogrammed. 10/10 would recommend because now I’m safe and finally building the life I deserve.
The thing with Promising Young Women is that it isn't really a rape revenge movie, although they're featured in it. Fennell said multiple times it's about grief and how it and trauma can ruin one's life and affect their actions. She succeeded in exactly what she wanted to convey and it's so annoying that some people trash it just because it wasn't exactly what THEY ASSUMED it was, which is something it was never trying to be.
That makes so much sense! I really love the movie and relate to it, as I’m also still grieving the loss of a friend. Grief feels helpless, but anger (at the people/circumstances surrounding my friend’s death) seems productive somehow, even though I know I can’t change the past.
If I have to watch interviews with the director or creator to learn what a movie is about then the movie did a bad job of conveying it imo. I liked the movie until the end. Everything seemed plausible to me until the ending. It just felt off and with the cops coming in to save the day in a way they wouldn’t.
i can see why midsommar is interpreted as a good for her movie. i thought the same thing the first time i watched it, but that just means the cult's indoctrination worked on us too.
It kind of scares me how many people think it is a "good for her" ending. Most of us think we could never be indoctrinated to a cult or radicalized, but a movie got us in like 2 hours
I haven’t seen it, but I thought the ending was supposed to be symbolic of the abusive cycle Dani is stuck in? I remember watching a video with a cult expert discussing scenes in the movie, and they said something about how the ending is just her replacing one abuse for another. Idk though.
I've always seen it as the opposite, like a "there are no good options for her" movie. Either she lets herself be happy with the low hanging fruit in this cult that will likely kill her if she tries to leave or, if she successfully manages to leave, she has to climb the Mt Everest of dealing with all the trauma in her life (significant even before the murder cult entered the picture) with nothing on her side and no guarantee she'll even be happy. My thoughts were less "good for her" and more "well, I guess it's a good thing you didn't have much going for you in the real world because you're probably stuck here."
Tell me how every single movie you mention as "Good for her" trope/genre adjacent was either my all time favorite or a grandly enjoyed watch? This analysis was tailor made for me apparently!
I feel like there needs to be a second, separate but related genre called "Bad for Her, Cathartic for Me." Carrie, Dani, Amy and similar characters' endings aren't GOOD for them, but they can still be cathartic to watch if you've ever been in that position where it feels like there is no justice and no escape from the injustice except to go total scorched earth to punish the person(s) who wronged you.
That's how I feel about Midsommar too. Yes she was indoctrinated into a cult, and yet when we're there with her, feeling her fragility, it does feel oddly good. She was given a family, she was given care, she was given revenge in a way. A way that I'm sure was cathartic after all she'd been through. When we step back we can see how it did not at all turn out good for her, but it did still feel like an odd sense of justice.
But of course the problem with the whole enterprise is that allowing oneself to indulge in the feelings of catharsis that self-destructive revenge can impart is itself actually psychologically toxic to the viewer. It's basically emotional junkfood of a kind that can radicalize already frustrated people in deeply unhelpful ways and normalize the lionization of revenge violence in society. This is the same logic by which stochastic terrorism propaganda works - it gets us emotionally addicted to the short lived "feel good" hit of feeling vindicated and safe after being triggered by a dramatically exaggerated portrayal of an otherwise legitimate but socially complex fear. It's also toxic because it can do the opposite of radicalization - it can make the viewer interpassive - i.e., "I'm frustrated and scared and want to make change, so I'm gonna watch this "hero" do make change in this movie...ahhh, that's better. I feel better now, so I'm not gonna go out and make change IRL. In fact, I'm gonna become even more complacent and ambivalent in my lack of power because I know I can just get a feel good hit of "feeling like I won" by watching this or similar movies again." It's just bad all around and it's a deeply ingrained symptom of our consumer capitalist culture. Why? because it's the same logic that advertising uses. Commercial advertising, political propaganda, emotionally toxic and ethically problematic junkfood narratives - it's all the same thing.
@@threeleggedrat9229 At what price was that catharsis, though? How much are we willing to value the character's (and by extension, our own) emotional catharsis over what is actually a better way to handle things or an actually "good ending"?
I completely agree with you. I wouldn't count Midsomer as a "Good For Her," film. The main character has less agency in the end, didn't orchestrate the deaths of her oppressors, and ended up in a murder cult doped out of her mind. She basically traded one oppressive system for another.
I like looking at Midsommar as a litmus test for how easily you'd be to trick into joining a cult. If you end the film thinking "Good for her" I have some bad news for you.
I agree but I'd like to add that being easy to indoctrinate doesn't have anything to with stupidity, but rather emotional vulnerability and a desperate need for community and structure and purpose. Emotions guide judgement, and even the smartest person can be drawn in if you get them at the right moment.
I think a lot of my interest in cults is a bit of a there by the grace of God (or my own vigilance or just sheer dumb luck) go I and part that a trait that creates a lot of problems elsewhere a stubborn refusal of direction actually helped me avoid that.
@@shara-v6074 yep. I can empathize with Dani, because it's "Good for her under the circumstances." I'm not vulnerable to a cult because I have friendships and community elsewhere. It's also odd to me that we're expected to read the issue with her boyfriend as him having cheated on her, and to sympathize because he was drugged and tricked into cheating. But the issue with their relationship wasn't him cheating, it was him having one foot out the door. He wasn't drugged when he talked to Siv, the matriarch, about whether he was interested in Maja. And as someone who had someone break up with me by telling me that "Some things that used to be endearing are now annoying, like how you're always SO SUPPORTIVE!" the scene where Christian gets mad at Dani for picking a flower for him, because he insists she only does nice things so he'll feel bad, resonated. I'd say the moral is "Be kinder to your significant other than the murder cult." After the breakup, "Uh-oh, you're being SUPPORTIVE again!" became a running joke among my friends. That'll keep us from needing a cult!
I spent the whole time in the village worrying about what would happen to her, and only at the very end I realized, that I've been watching this movie all wrong. Gotta watch it again sometime
@@schuechen you weren’t watching it wrong! She was found, lured, and indoctrinated at a very vulnerable time in her life. For me the movie does a great job at showing the ways that cults pull in vulnerable people. It’s not a happy ending for her and I hate when people say it is.
@@gleewhoseline198 absolutely. But he’s not evil either. Would you be able to break up with someone so soon after their entire family just died? I can absolutely understand not wanting to be there but feeling like you can’t really leave. It’s a mistake for sure. Absolutely he should have broken up with her a long time ago. But it is also an understandable mistake to make. The relationship was toxic on both sides honestly.
I think the issue is that it's dealing with complex emotions/topics that make it hard for people to process all of it beyond "thing good" or "thing bad" - like they see 'oh this group is helping her deal with her pain and grief in a way no one else has', and assume that means it must be good and miss the point that this is how cults and other groups that indoctrinate people operate - if they weren't tempting, if they didn't offer people something they need in that moment, they wouldn't exist. Which also makes it a cautionary tale for viewers, especially the oblivious viewers who didn't pick up on that message, showing how vulnerable they too would be in that environment.
"Gone Girl is NOT a Good for Her movie!" THANK YOU! I cannot tell you how much it irks me that Amy Elliot was treated like a hero, when the whole point of her being written was to be a villain. She's a perfect villain, though.
This. Specifically Amy is the villain to everyone: her husband, her affair partner, her gender and her society but especially to herself. She’s got power over Nick at the end, and through him shapes her circumstances to a more tolerable place than before, but she never escaped The Cool Girl. She just evolved into the Stepford Wine Mom.
@@SharkPalace Are you effing serious? Nick lost his mother and his job in the space of five years AND had to be next of kin to a dementia-stricken father he was never close to. On top of that, his wife was a covert narcissistic abuser, but try telling that to anyone else as a MAN. And that was BEFORE the missing shit went down. Yes, Nick cheated on his wife, and the fact that it was a teenager makes it an abuse of power as well. And yet, he clearly valued Andie as a human being, as he did Amy. In spite of how the latter was treating him, HE wanted a baby with HER. And after all of that, Amy painted him as a physically abusive prick just because he wouldn't pretend to be someone SHE wanted. Nick's not a perfect victim, he's an arsehole. But he's still a VICTIM of abuse. He literally has all the hallmarks. If Nick was a woman, we'd be rooting for him and you know it. He is an Anti-Hero, not a Villain.
Exactly! This has always bothered me about that movie, and has really taken from my enjoyment of it. I've met entirely too many women who relate to Amy which... it's like we finally have a female version of "characters you're not meant to relate to" such as Tyler Durden and Rick Sanchez. If you think Amy is a hero, I'm just going to back away from you very slowly. She's fantastically written, wonderfully acted, but not a hero. She killed an innocent man, ffs. A, from what I remember of the film, decently good man.
The story concept is golden. There isn't even a snippet of film footage to see on youtube 😢 Why does birth of a nation get to exist and this burns in a fire, there's a conspiracy I swear 😭
I never even thought about the ending PYW the way you mentioned it. To me, yes he wouldn't answer for the rape, but he would answer for Cassie's murder. I never even considered that he wouldn't. Which ties in with how dismissive rape seems to be, but murder is not ignorable.
Exactly, that's why I am leaning on being okay with the ending. It seems fitting for that very reason. Society and law don't punish rape as harshly as murder, because in their eyes it's what the woman is for. Especially if that woman is sexually liberated, as Nina was. The whole injustice broke Cassie to the point in which she was willing to put her life in return for justice for both of them and I see why. Cassie felt especially responsible (unjustly, but still that were her feelings) so it felt like the solution to all problems in her view
Maybe the one thing she realy wins is in asking th audience about justice, making meta rooting for her?! And that by making it that tragic and adressed, being remembered, in the real world. A meta good for you?!
@@sorcellerie I agree with everything in your comment except for the disapproval of rape being punished to a lesser extend than murder, and I'm saying this as a rape survivor. If rape had the same or higher sentencing that murder, it would just send a message "If you want to rape her, just kill her afterwards, it won't make a difference", and that's more than extremely dangerous thought to give to a criminal.
I will never, ever, ever forget the shock and horror I felt watching Cassie being killed in PYW. The movie had me ready to celebrate her getting her revenge, and then it just hit me with the most realistic outcome, and I felt cold for the rest of the runtime. The rest of that day, actually. I felt like I'd lost a friend to the most horrible men imaginable. Max Greenfield's character still makes my skin crawl. I don't even know if I can say I liked it or not. I mean, in some ways I loved it. The candy-colored aesthetic, the music, and especially Carey Mulligan are all extraordinary. And then there's that ice dagger to the heart. Can the film even be liked? Or merely admired for what it accomplishes to do to us? I don't know. But it surely did something to me. I haven't stopped thinking about it since.
I sobbed so hard in the theater, like legit loud ugly crying, when I realized she wasn't going to get away. I was shocked at how I physically reacted to it, when I should have known all along that it was already not that type of movie, how self-destructive she already had been. I just wanted anything but that, the actual realistic outcome. Thinking about watching it again (as good as it was!) makes my skin crawl - I can't remember the last time I felt that much of a gut punch from a movie.
@@dahliamagee going to the movie theater with you sounds fun. I mean it. I sobbed the same way during Everything Everywhere All at Once and people around me were veeeery uncomfortable. I loved it. But yeah, I have rewatched PYW and I still couldn't watch that scene. Too much.
I see where you all (including the host) is coming from in the sense that PYW is not a “good for her” movie, but in the most morbid sense, I have to say it is. Once she realized that the first man she let into her life after losing her friend to suicide was in fact complicit in her friend’s rape. This destroyed her sense of world view entirely and made her current existence either unlivable or unbearable any longer. After this morbid realization, she made the plans to move back revenge on her friends rapist. Yes, she dies in a very unsatisfactory way to us and it really wrecked me as well but she knew this outcome would happen and she was fine with being murdered to avenge her friend. She chose death to get justice against the perpetrator. Of course no one wanted to see her die but it’s not like she didn’t expect the outcome. She did and justice in some sense was still served.
“Can the film even be liked? Or merely admired for what it accomplishes to do to us?” This. This. Exactly this. PYW put me in shock for the entire ending sequence, it was like I couldn’t breathe, like my very thoughts stopped. Extremely well done and extremely awful to experience. Glad it happened, but will not be doing it again.
You put into words why the movie "Taken" has always bothered me. I hate that this girl who is put into this horrible, traumatic situation has to rely on her father to save her; watching it makes me feel like I have no autonomy or agency to save myself or even just take ownership of what happened to me (if that makes sense?). It also makes sense now why I loved the show "Jessica Jones" so much, she is repeatedly raped by Killgrave, but in the end she is the one who saves herself and gets "justice" for herself by killing Killgrave, but the show also doesn't shy away from the trauma it causes her, even after his death.
@@thrawncaedusl717 well, not entirely. On one hand, at least if a mother was the savior its not sending the message of "women have to rely on men to save them" but on the other hand, it would still suffer from the problem of a rape victim having to rely on someone else and having very little agency.
@@Anima19925 I don't really blame victims for relying on someone else. That what family and friends are there for when things are rough but you can't rely on them all the time
@@user-ooop I’m not saying that a victim should never rely on help, and I would never place blame on a victim. What I’m saying is that I take issue with a movie using a rape victim as a prop for the protagonist - the character of the victim should be treated like a real human, with agency and feelings (and realistically wouldn’t just all the sudden be okay after being rescued)
i get that, but i feel like stories from the perspective of a father, who feels the need to save or protect his children or family as a whole has a right to exist as well
I thought "Promising Young Woman" was excellent. But I remember a few of my female friends telling me that they'd been less than pleased with the ending. I absolutely understand that...but, I saw Cassie's character arc as the only way the story could truly go, without it feeling like a fairy tale. Yes, what happens to her is horrifying. But as written/directed by Fennel and performed by Mulligan, it felt as though Cassie knew that the odds were stacked against her, and was at peace with that. I still can't talk about this movie with a few of my friends, as while I 100% understand where they're coming from? I find the ending of the film Cassie's own HEA, cobbled together from the darkness that has haunted her for decades. I felt this one in my soul.
i really liked the movie, but it lacked catharsis for me. that was of course on purpose, but it still made the experience less “fun” (as for any movie in its own key) for me. still a very good movie though
I agree completely. The ending made a lot of sense to me. Cassie gives living a different life a chance when she dates Bo Burnham's character. A life within the confines of the misogyny around her but working around it to find her own safe spaces and joy. Only for all the things she was trying to move past to come slamming back into her life and she is forced to face the horrible world of sexism that she knows now she cannot escape. She sees no way out, walks towards her doom, and does what she can to bring some shred of justice on the way out.
I have a lot of problems with PYW, and they all come long before the ending. In fact, I get what the ending was doing, even though I agree that having the catharsis come from the police was fucking stupid and antithetical to everything. It's a very...white feminist movie. I liked it as a movie, but I definitely dislike it thematically, if that makes sense. Princess Weekes has a great video on the movie that I think both fans and critics should watch.
@@quirkyblackenby If you actually pay attention, they don't really. They mess up the investigation, don't realise how suspicious Bo Burnham is acting and are just eager to write it off as suicide. They literally have to have the information handed to them
Fried Green Tomatoes is my ultimate Good For Her flick (could Murder Lesbians be a sub genre? the old “sapphics are coming to destroy the fabric of traditional society and seduce your daughters” trope but now it’s positive)
@@alim.9801 Thelma & Louise comes immediately to mind. Practical Magic doesn’t have lesbian main characters (the aunts might be gay, it’s been a bit since I watched it) but I definitely get Disaster Bi vibes from Nicole Kidman’s character.
Haven’t watched the video till the end yet but I immediately remembered Casey Cooke from the movie Split (2016) when you mentioned ”Final Girl Subversion”. The thing is, that character has always bothered me. I don’t really know how to feel about the message that the movie sends. Casey is the only one of the girls who survived the kidnapping. She is constantly shown to be more competent than her classmates, being smarter, stronger, and adapting much faster than them. At the end (SPOILER ALERT) it is revealed that most of those surviving skills came from her uncle (and legal guardian) who has been SA her since her childhood. She is speared by the Beast “because she has suffered” and that definitely doesn’t sit well with me. It’s almost like the movie was trying to say that being SA made her stronger. That same trope has been brought up in Game Of Thrones with Sansa Stark, where she straight on said that all of the abuse made her stronger
I can understand why you interpreted Split this way. I've seen many other people with the same takeaway. Personally, I really enjoyed the ending. Realistically, trauma like SA only ever causes bad things, and those bad things often compound on one another. You isolate yourself and can't connect with others. You don't do well in school or have the motivation to take your life anywhere. You're more likely to end up with other people who will hurt you. So when she was getting chased there was this sense of "After everything she's survived, she's going to die like this."I felt that she was receiving an unfair fate as trauma victims often do. So when, instead, for once in her life, her trauma actually brought her something good, I dunno, I get that it's not realistic, and I understand why people who have experienced SA wouldn't want portrayals that show any "benefits" from such a horrible thing, but to me it felt like a relief. That being broken doesn't mean that there's only bad ends for me.
Oh, don't remind me of what Game of Thrones did to Sansa Stark. GRRM needs to finish TWOW because I need to know what actually happens next with Sansa and George has been abundantly clear it is nothing like the show. He released a Sansa sample chapter right after that episode aired and that shit puts Sansa in a completely different trajectory - I see her charming her way into power in the Vale and getting out from under creepy Littlefinger's grip, and eventually marching up North *with* an army to Winterfell's aid.
A particularly telling example of the "is she going mad with revenge?" double standard (@43:00) is looking at the Punisher (comics and derivatives). This is a character that has been consumed by his desire for revenge into becoming the mortal personification of it. He admits in at least some comics that he is not really a decent person anymore, even admonishing someone that viewed him as a role model. And yet real life people do actually hold him up as a role model; as some sort of model of masculine protectiveness, as if he wasn't twisted into a monstrous form by the path that he walks.
One of my favorite punisher moments is from one of the films. He kills an undercover cop in one of his attacks. He goes to the mans wife and offers to let her kill him. She sends him away, but it encompasses his absolutism in justice. Red hood has similar lines in the comics. Summarized, he basically says his own death will balance the books, so to speak, for his crimes. It's horrifying, but so perfectly self-aware and displays the true evil of their actions, however they justify them.
Midsummar tricked us into being so happy her awful boyfriend had died and that Dani was allowed to express her emotions for once that we were excited for her to be in a *cult* of all things
I didn't get that. I mean, he was an awful man, but he was raped and murdered for his incapability of quitting out the unwanted relationship after her family's death. It's creepy to me that wanting out and being a douche makes it ok for him to raped and murdered while if it was a woman we'd be raising red flags all over it.
Okay when you talked about "I May Destroy You" made me tear up. I may watch this series because I've been so consumed with thinking of revenge, day and night, to my abusers without thinking of prioritizing processing my feelings and emotions.
i know this comment is old but i felt the same way you do in 2020 when i got away from some bad ppl. you will get through this, you're strong, everything is gonna be ok💕❤️
"Enough" starring Jennifer Lopez was the 'Good For Her' movie that sticks out for me from my childhood. Female protagonist, stuck in toxic system, plays by her own rules, triumphs over system (albeit through violence, but self-defense & protection of child so maybe seen as more virtuous).
Well she does literally escape a physical location but not the system. She's definitely not feeling guilty for the revenge but unfortunately she's also not completely liberated. We don't see what she does with herself after the credits scene but honestly still an iconic movie.
When it comes to thinking of "Good for Her" as a genre, I'm reminded of the linguistics concept of a "Sprachbund", which is when geographically adjacent languages share common characteristics even if they come from completely separate language families. "Good for Her" seems to be working in the same way as a Sprachbund by bridging films across genres with similar themes despite not being a true genre itself.
i was fcking fuming by the end of the film after watching the cult successfully manipulate Dani and get away with all the murders, and was totally caught off guard that a huge portion of audiences thought Midsommar had a happy or even victorious ending. Like huh????
I love midsommar and agree with this take. I think the reason is mistaken as a good for her movie is because you're supposed to go on that ride with her. You get seduced by the cult with her. She's so I'm need and alone and tragic that your desire to see her with community makes you enjoy seeing the cult gather around and emotionally support her. So it is a yikes for her movie, but still feels cathartic. I love the mixture of emotions I feel watching it. A true horror
That's always how I've felt too! It's easy to feel "good for her", because we are seeing things through her lense. We understand and feel good for her because of how cathartic it is. We want so desperately for her to find comfort, that even though in the end she became indoctrinated into a cult, it still felt like a sense of justice for her fragile state of being. Hindsight, sure, it's an absolutely horrific ending, but when we're there with her it does feel so just.
That's the manipulation tactics at play. Cults want you to think you're being emotionally supported and comforted, when what they actually do is strip your defenses and make you dependent. If you feel a sense of relief or happiness at the end, it meant worked on you too (it initially did for me too).
People who after watching Midsommar and feel Dani is better than she was in the past would get trapped in a cult themselves and that’s really concerning
I think Last Night in Soho has an interesting take on the whole good for her narrative, viewing the good-for-her main character from the lens of another woman who can sympathise with her but eventually also even falls victim to her.
Excellent video. "I may destroy you" is possibly the most nuanced take on the complexities of rape situations I've ever seen, I love the non-perfect-victim-ness of Arabella and the range of different scenarios shown in it (without practically any explicit scenes) I cannot believe that the series was so overlooked by TV awards, it deserved all of them.
i couldn't watch it bc it sounded to close to what happened to me, how non-explicit is it? bc i might watch it (eventually) if i can get through it without spiraling
So the kid from The Black phone enters in the Good for her (him) genre. He was bullied, abused by his dad, and later kidnapped , he not only escapes but gets revenge on behalf of the other kids and himself.
the true catharsis is seeing someone point out the midsommar ending isnt a happy one and not a Good For Her moment. i honestly hated the movie when i watched it bc i was rly weirded out by people seeing it as that (especially a lot of people pondering on the cheating part when thats not really what happened there) and thinking that was supposed to be the movies message. i didnt rly think further tbh bc i was caught up by that fact so i appreciate the angle you brought up, maybe it does have some rights,
i had no idea people thought midsommar was a good ending for florence pugh's character. cant believe you could say that after sitting there watching this woman lose everything and then be manipulated into a cult
As I see it, Promising Young Woman is to the Good for Her genre as Titanic is to the romance genre. The ending can be sad, incomplete or bittersweet and still be firmly in the genre. No one needs to die in a horror movie for it to be a horror movie. It just takes more work to succeed.
I've heard about the play Gaslight so many times when people talk about the origin of the term but this is the first time I've ever heard the full story involving her turning it back on him in the end, actually interested in watching it now
This is such a complex genre, because there's a massive difference in storytelling style, tone, and goals in films like Knives Out and Promising Young Woman, and yet I can see why they're put under the same umbrella. I have more thoughts which are too long for a UA-cam comment, but great thought-provoking video, as always.
When you mentioned gothic genre it actually reminded me of someone who could fit into good for her genre. Edith Cushing from Crimson Peak. Spoilers ahead if you haven't seen it. I don't remember all of it really well but from what I do, I definitely had good for her moment at the end of the movie. Especially cause Edith's character development goes from young, naive girl into someone who has to basically survives not only heartbreak (Thomas was a victim too! but she still is betrayed) but also poisoning and m*rder attempt from Lucille and save herself while being completely emotionally and physically isolated. It's basically Midsommar but with Edith taking charge at the end. It's not a perfect movie, it has it's flaws but I think it works for this. Too bad this movie is completely overlooked and hurt by marketing department, cause I think it works in "good for her" genre pretty good
I've been calling this genre "girlpower murder ballads" because my first exposure was "Goodbye Earl" by the chicks & country music had this "kill your shitty husband" subgenre. Ballads don't even have to be musical. Anyways, this has been part of my understanding of femininity & I've been reckoning lately with the carcerality & racism of this femininity, and I want to thank you for discussing this sort of deconstruction. I use girlpower instead of feminism because the power sometimes serves patriarchy. For example, some songs in the genre especially around the 2010's in the indie genre would feature jealous/scorn lovers in sapphic relationships basically taking on the previous murder ballad genre tropes that centered men being femiciders. I especially appreciated you saying how men/patriarchy are often the actual writers of these movies, because to say the least of it when I figured out that those 1990's nickelodeon movies were written for 1990's adults instead of kids I felt so taken advantage of since Nickelodeon from that era advertized itself as youth liberation. I've been trying to process how this sort of dynamic was active with the cultural revolution & maoism as well. Please note I'm centering USAmerican TV channels here as well as with the country music. PS, I wonder how the "lifetime movie" genre interacts with this because I've noticed they tend to focus more on motherly property & fighting for one's husband instead of feminism even though they focus a lot on femicide & I've seen a lot of TERFs relate to the lifetime movie genre.
@@naikigutierrez4279 there was an era where Mao and his wife were doing a very 'it's all about the YOUTHS rise up and throw off the oppressive ideas of these lame adults' thing and it was used to purge a lot of folks and other big upheavals, as I understand it. Hopefully someone with more knowledge can add.
Just saw Promising Young Woman, and it was such a punch in the gut. Even knowing what the ending would be, I think I wasn't prepared enough for it. This movie wasn't cathartic for me, it was more of a tragedy than anything else. Thank you for your wonderful videos and movie recommandations. (I know this comment doesn't read as positive at all, but in the end it really is. I'm glad Rowan introduced me to this movie which I had never heard of !)
Deathproof & Jackie Brown are definitely one of my favorites of this newly named genre, if you're looking for examples of black and brown women that would fit the bill I think.
I still felt satisfied and a sort of "good for her" feeling even though cassie died at the end of promising young woman, because she still made her own decisions, did everything on her own terms, and got her revenge on the people who hurt her friend, her death is a way of exposing to those people how bad they really were despite thinking of themselves as good people, so I would argue it fits the genre
As someone who was bullied as a teen, I can watch "Carrie" (I prefer the 70s version) and cheer every time I see the prom goers die and the school burn down. Carrie's death at the conclusion of the story doesn't diminish the thrill I get in vicariously living out a violent fantasy through the movie that I would never enact in real life.
The idea that "Midsomar" is a "good for her" movie never quite sat right for me either. thank you for putting it into words that I don't believe I could ever have come up with.
The first “Good For Her”-esque movie I remember watching was the movie _Enough_ starring Jennifer Lopez. I swear, when I was about 10 years old, that movie had a stranglehold on me, I watched it repeatedly on dvd.
I never got the miss honey is a lesbian read but once you’ve said it yeah that’s that’s perfectly true I will never be able to not see her that way you have made the film and the character better with that one sentence
What a fantastic analysis. This is a great breakdown of this genre and its subversions, moments, tropes, etc. The smart home technology being used to gaslight is truly terrifying.
Carrie hits SO DIFFERENT when you’re the victim of bullying and an abusive parent. Contempt for the people hurting you turns into contempt for EVERYBODY because no one is doing anything about it. Even tho it’s morally reprehensible, if you can remember that feeling, the catharsis is SO real. tw: unaliving I think if I had read it as a teen, who was significantly more mentally ill than I am now, I would have seen the ending of Carrie as a ‘good for her’ moment, just because she ESCAPED all of that.
Kill Bill kept coming to mind as I watched this. Another example of what men think women need in a Good For Her. I'd also argue Inglorious Bastards, mostly because I always felt the Bastards were more of a plot device that my MC, Shosanna, utelizes to get her ultimate revenge. The story centers around her and her struggles.
I really appreciate your comments about how privilege affects the ways that films audiences typically respond to 'revenge' or 'good for her' narratives. There is a certain amount of 'wiggle room' that female protagonists will have to triumph over adversity or to display 'monstrous' characteristics while doing so. For women that are already rendered 'Other' by virtue of racism, ableism, transphobia etc. that 'wiggle room' is greatly diminished, and their self-preservation tactics - no matter how heroic - are more likely to be construed as a direct affront to the white, cisheteronormative status-quo. Attractive white women make good final girls because they can be made into objects of both desire and sympathy for a larger audience IF they can ably demonstrate that they are the 'right' kind of girl. Glad to see Carol J Clover's work is still getting some traction!
I had a vague awareness of this as a genre, but you put it into words perfectly. Also made me realize that some of my writing is like a transmasc version of this genre, which I hadn't thought about before (but man, is it cathartic to write). Thanks for another great video!
I’m not on Twitter, so i missed all this discourse, but pretty much all my favourite movies are on that list lmao, so obviously i can finally pin down what my favourite genre is! 😂
What an EXCELLENT video! As someone writing a feminist theatre piece where trauma and violence are very much centre stage, this concept and analysis of it will be incredibly helpful to keep in the back of my mind while writing the characters' journeys. Thank you so much!
What about the movie enough (2002) starring Jenifer Lopez. That's a movie where a woman trapped in an abusive marriage murders her husband out of fear for life. At the end when the cops show up one of them tells her that she's one of the lucky ones for being about to get out. It's a movie i never hear talked about that i think is Relevant to this discussion. Good for her.
So glad you brought up I May Destroy You - it's criminally underrated, and I get excited every time people bring it up. Let it live on forever in our cultural awareness!
I see the "Good for Her" genre as being on the rise and especially relevant with women, queer people, Indigenous people and other marginalised groups being able to speak about and gain platforms off their trauma. I am even inspired to write my own story and make it into that but I also think that in a way these movies are as painful to watch as they are carthatic
I remember having a conversation with friends and said something about how I felt really bad for Dani at the end, and one of my friends asked why and I had to be like "...the cult?" It felt so weird to me how many people didn't recognize that just because her bf was a bad guy didn't make the literal cult good guys.
I really don’t want to watch this movie, as a survivor from a cult myself, but I’ve watched some video analyses about it, because I was curious. It kind of terrifies me how many people think the ending is good/happy. (Not like in the analyses of anything, but like in general reviews of the movie)
Thank you for your video! You do such amazing work! I‘m such an old Millenil and not involved in any twitter conversations about this, but I had a thought about the „Good For Her“ phrase itself. In Arrested Development, Lucille says that line while she is off of her antidepressants and “depressed about [her youngest son being born]”, and it’s in response to a story about a woman killing herself and her children. I guess, to me, I would think that the „Good For Her“ label would be applied to stories that are not really… good for her. To me the irony of the phrase is the point and is well applied to stories about self destruction in response to an unjust social system. By that logic, Matilda is “Good for her!!!” and Midsommar is #goodforher. Embarrassing for me that I watched this much Arrested Development #yikesforme
Sorry to sort of self promo but I recently made a video myself focussing on femininity and revenge and the idea of ‘fantasised justice’ as you put it. I’m fascinated by female lead revenge films, but I feel like we’ve reached the point where the trope is kind of self destructing? The last shot of the ‘smiling woman’ has already become a cliche in an incredibly small time and i feel like a lot of filmmakers are beginning to tack in on when its unearned. I’ve found media like ‘I May Destroy You’ much more intriguing by avoiding this trope and focussing on the emptiness of fantasy and impossibility of catharsis. Anyway, love your thoughts on this Rowan!
Before I finish watching this, I would like to recommend The Perfection as a film that has queer retribution. I watched it this spooky season and loved it
I think anyone who's ever dealt with a partner like Nick said "good for her" on some level by the end. Amy is definitely not meant to be a hero, but wanting to fuck up the life of someone who hurt you when they were supposed to love you is a universal intrusive thought 😅
I would argue that Kristie is my favourite final girl; from Hellraiser. The Cenobites only come when they are called, and they take who summons them. However brief, they do let her go. She is also explicitly confident in her sexuality and is an incredibly smart protagonist. In fact, she retains agency.
I love your commentary on Promising Young Woman- I really enjoyed the movie but understand a lot of the critiques. Something that kind of adds to your analysis of it as an intentional subversion of this genre is the marketing. The ads for the film implied that it was in fact a murderous rampage story. Specifically I remember the clip implying blood dripping from the main characters hand, revealed in the movie to be something innocuous (was it jelly from a donut? I can't remember).
im surprised you didnt mention The Handmaiden (2016), especially when its one of the movies that intersects race (japanese occupation of korea), gender, and sexuality.
Thank you for pointing out Amy Dunn is 100% not a good for her character but a villain with sympathetic aspects. Her character is very rooted in the need for power and control, and the movie, whilst delving into aspects about gender roles, is far more about the power struggle between two deeply flawed individuals. Making it as a pure good for her movie undercuts the message.
As a Knives Out enthusiast, I also love how Glass Onion deals with the corrupt legal system-- kind of for the benefit of the protagonist at the end, but explicitly when Blanc says that he can find the truth, but can't garuntee any legal action.
haven’t finished the video just yet so maybe she gets mentioned, but I think Ripley from the Alien series is an example of “the final girl,” at least to an extent
I’d also put, “The Menu,” in this incredibly fascinating genre I’ll be obsessed with for the next month. If you’re unfamiliar, I’d very much recommend checking it out, it is simply *chefs kiss* All I’ll say is that it ends with the leading lady eating a good ass cheeseburger on a boat while she watches the source of all her torment over the past 8 hours go up in flames.
I feel an aspect of Good For Her as you describe it being so strong a genre is from how it taps into the desire of wanting power to right wrongs. When you talk about them, I'm thinking it is the same as John Wick. Something deeply personal is hurt, and it inspires a empowering revenge where a balance is made by extracting a price from those who hurt the sympathetic character.
Midsommar is horror and it watches like a horror, watching somebody be manipulated while there is nothing you can do about it, and the worst part is, you know full well that she is the only one who can break herself out of it, even if you were there there is nothing you could do or say to help
I think the first movie I watched that left a very strong and memorable "good for her!" impression on me was "I Spit On Your Grave." (I had a similar experience watching Lisbeth get her revenge on her sadistic probation officer in "The Girl With a Dragon Tattoo.") Thanks for including a special section on that type of film!
In the films you discuss, there seems to be a common element of women using their minds to outsmart the system, or the villain. In the final example, the heroine uses wisdom to choose the best path forward.
Super cool video. I think I've got an example of a (kind of) Final Girl that predates the slasher genre: Mina Harker-Murray. People die all around her, but she makes it to the end. While she might not be a virgin by the end, she's definitely more-aligned with the "proper" virgin archetype than her best friend Lucy who, in the book at least does die a virgin.
You got that impression? Please correct me if I'm remenbering or getting wrong, but only two of seven or eight protagonists die, right? She fits as final girl because one was the only other woman? Or the three female vampires are also counted? Or Lucy's second death spins her inital impression around? I have seen Mina as a "Why can't a single screenwriter do her justice?!" character so it feels weird to see her put as final girl type
53:14 This. Just this. I get asked again and again stuff like "Why can't you get over it" and "what are things to do that could help you heal " and its, that sentance is what I want. Its "I don't know, I wish my brain would let it go I am trying to move on slowly with my life". All these different scenarios where the person who hurt me is hurt, or we repair our relationship or any other fantasy always ends with me thinking that I still wouldn't be happy, I still wouldn't be healed from whatever hurt or healing that existed like that. me healing is going to have to be a me thing, its gotta be my brain letting it go. I still have no idea how or if I'll get there some day. But it gives me hope that with time, all wounds heal. Its how I keep living and keep being excited for the next day regardless to what happened to me in the past.
the way people debated that the Good For Her genre couldn't exist because they didn't all share criteria really says it all. So annoying. At least we got this video. I was discussing this with someone else because I typically do not like horror or thrillers . My friend argued that it wasn't true that's not true as my favorite movies in that genre are Carrie, Ginger Snaps, Hard Candy, and Audition. I love horror and thrillers when I feel sympathy for the lead. This is easy with women characters going through things (realistic or metaphorical) that I understand personally.
I don't have any thoughts on Gone Girl but I think portraying Midsommar as empowering, even ironically is dangerous. Like the video said, that movie is a study on how cults prey on the vulnerable, she is not safe, she is not loved in that cult, she is always at the risk at getting hurt and killed in that cult. That is not at all a 'good for her' moment and cults shouldn't be portrayed as empowering and helpful, even as a joke. I think people get the impression midsommar was a 'good for her' moment because of how happy she is at the end of the movie but that's, how a cult works? Just like how people actively planning a suicide attempt will be in high spirits, happiness does not correlate safety or good mental health, in fact it very often means the opposite.
@@noheterotho179 Thanks for your reply, my question mark in "good for her?" (to be read with questioning intonation) was meant as a "yikes, it's not really good for her". I would put a greater emphasis on Gone Girl in my statement, where the main character ends up back in her relationship instead of getting herself and her husband killed. And in Midsommar it was more that she made it out alive (at least by the end of the movie). But of course it's still a massive "yikes". Sorry for any misunderstandings.
@@noheterotho179 i think it depends on how you are viewing the movie. for me it was very symbolic - it's a movie about breaking up with a bad partner, and moving on from your grief of losing family. I didn't feel as if the cult aspect was actually as important as the break up theme. the fact the movie ends on Dani's smile, and not say, 2 days later to see how the cult treats her post end credits - makes it seem like the cult was less important to the director than the emotion finale of her character arc. (which is undeniably the part people emphasized with and drew catharsis from)
This video was amazing. I think the 2022 film "The Invitation" also falls into the Good for her category and features a female POC lead, and it's just amazing. I'd love to see a video on this, but overall would just really recommend the movie
Like everyone else, I think that the end of Midsommar was a horrible ending, at least morally. But what I don’t see a lot from most people is the fact that the antagonistic boyfriend was raped and then murdered. Then people still call it “good for her?” That’s horrible.
I watched Midsommer years ago and I was so horrified by the ending. I dont understand how People see it as a Good for Her Movie. I know that guy Was a piece of shit, but that absolutely does not justify his punishment. The way he treated her was horrible, especially when her family died and she was desperate for a community and emotional support. But damn what happened to him was so fucking gross, it just made me feel bad for him. She was trapped inside of a murder cult because they manipulated her need for a community that cared for her. For her it feels like a happy ending, even with everything she witnessed them doing. And if she decides to leave, they'll murder her. But that probably will never happen, because she had no problem seeing her (ex-) boyfriend getting murdered by her newfound family, so what reason would she have to leave. I do feel bad for her, but I still deeply dislike her. Some of my recollections of the movie may be wrong, since I've watched it a long time ago.
I think people interpret the fact that he voluntarily decided to drink the drugged drink-knowing it was drugged-as him having decided to do it. From the way the scene is filmed, you can tell he knows what he’s actually drinking. As for whether this is a fair interpretation or not, I’m unsure. Regardless of whether you paint what he did as consensual, he still shouldn’t have been killed.
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YOU SHOULD DO QUEER good for her on the podcast!!!!!!!!!!!!
your hair looks gorgeous...many people have unnatural colours rn, but yours looks well done!
Real quick, Midsommar was actively created in a way that stimulates the proccess. Even the lighting was designed to in a way brainwash the viewers. That's why I'd categorize it as horror and I definitely agree it is very much not a good for her movie. The fact I was smiling while feel disturbed left me deeply unsettled. I could feel it happening and was still in a way powerless to stop it. In a way I feel the movie was created to showcase just how powerless and out of control a cult can make you feel even just by watching it.
folk horror is not a new genre
1
People are happy that Dani escaped an abusive relationship when cults are the quintessence of abusive relationships
For real! It wasn’t even abusive, just distant and toxic. Christian is not a good boyfriend, but that’s not because he’s trying to control her or isolate her, it’s because he doesn’t want to be with her but doesn’t have the balls to leave. People act like he’s the devil incarnate but he’s just… a guy. Not a good boyfriend, but not a monster who deserved death either.
And it wasn't even an abusive relationship, it was just shitty! For everyone involved!
Midsommar is so effective as a horror to me because of how many people genuinely don't seem to realise that's not a good ending.
I’m happy Christian died, babe.
Not even abusive
I've never heard of this trend but so far it feels like the main criteria is "Women can have a little karmic justice, as a treat."
We really do, most of my generation is quote unquote “okay w being crazy” because we’re attempting so hard to go against the grain of what men want.
Considering all the shit we gotta deal with, I say it was overdued
it's not topically relevant, but I just had to mention that I was the 666th like on this, and my demon heart is pleased 😈
It depends. The meme is about a woman doing something horrible to the absurd and being like...good for her. If you see Arrested Development and are familiar with Lucille as a character the meaning is obvious. A better example of "good for her" would actually be the movie Carrie. However in that movie she is pretty well justified so you might instead be better choosing Species.
@@justcommenting4981 not sure Carrie would be justified. I havent seen it in years though, so i might be misremembering, but doesnt she indiscriminately kill people?
The premise of Gaslight reminds me of when my mother was going through her divorce. She had a restraining order against my (step) father so he would wait until she left the house to go inside and do things like move around stuff on her bedside table, open windows on her computer, or steal one shoe in a pair. Legit just to fuck with her, I had to get her cameras because she legitimately felt like she was going crazy.
that's the most vile shit wtf, i hope he isn't bothering her anymore
That sounds like a crime
My ex step dad did that too! He took photo albums out of a closet and left them open on the table. I slept with a baseball bat for a year.
Dude what the fuck. Thats one of the most fucked up things I’ve ever heard..what the hell
@@mcwjes what the fuck that's actually so awful why
One thing I find PARTICULARLY depressing, in Carrie, is that at the end - after the mother who has abused her all her life tries to murder her- she still literally clings to her mother as the grief of having to defend herself from her first and most awful bully causes her powers to go out of control. Yet, I have never been able to find an ounce of pity for any of the kids she killed, even after all these years.
To me it felt like that moment really captured how miserable having abusive parents can be. That despite all the harm these people have caused you, a part of you will always crave their love and affection
Its probably carthatic but not relief.
It's the reason I love her inclusion in the 'Camp Counselor Jason' webcomic, there's something cathartic about her getting a chance at happiness.
@@idigamstudios7463 And her mother paying for her abuse without Carrie having to do it herself. I was SO glad the author got rid of this monster of a mom without traumatizing that poor girl again.
I always felt pity for the kids who weren't laughing. The destruction of the gym is when the movie moves into true horror (the kind that makes you say "make it stop"), and I think it was intended to be. I can't blame Carrie, she had obviously snapped in some fundamental way, but that doesn't mean what she did wasn't horrific...and I think that, if she'd lived, she'd have been horrified at her own actions. The only cathartic deaths were those of the evil ringleader girl and John Travolta's character, and of course of Carrie's evil mother.
This reminds me of the very related character archetype of "The Traumabitch," coined by youtuber Hazel in her two-hour Elfen Leid video essay as, "the kind of character who you see being a mess and you say, 'yep, I'm gonna make that bitch my private twitter icon. The kind of character that's relatable in all the ways she's unsympathetic and dysfunctional... like so many feminine or queer monsters in the past, her rage is cathartic even when it's not communicated to the audience as moral or relatable."
Oooo I love a character like that
huge huge overlap with the femcel-adored characters
Oh wow, I'm stealing this. It explains so much about some people I know who just can't help rooting for problematic women again and again.
Even in revenge - which in itself is destructive and unpleasant - women have to abide by the rules and be nice and clean in their rage. Men destroy all the time without consequences and women need to say "sorry" for even fantazising about such a things. No man would be ashamed for liking John Wick - but God forbid a woman fantasizes acting violently as a result of trauma. No, women are supposed to passively suffer or kill themselves silently - only men are allowed to actively influencing the world around them. A man's perceived need for revenge triggered WW1. Maybe that's why the Trauma Bitch feels so "right". Why are only men's feelings allowed to change the world?
@@red_calla_lily EXACTLY
I always saw _Carrie_ (the original, haven't seen the remake) as a tragedy. Carrie, had she lived, would have been horrified at her own actions that killed the innocent along with the guilty. Only when she destroyed the car speeding at her did I feel any sense of triumph. The destruction of the gym was (and, I think, was intended to be) a moment of horror. It was revenge delivered onto the wrong targets.
i read and loved the book (despite king’s fixation with every character’s breasts…) and i think you totally got it. what’s most disappointing to me about the original movie is that the kids boisterously laugh at and mock Carrie immediately when it’s described in the book as a slow, anxious laughter from teens who had no idea how to react. obviously most viewers aren’t super down with high school massacres, but the movie erased a lot of nuance to get that good for her moment.
then again, victims of bullying deserve their cathartic movie - but god forbid we cast a fat girl with acne like in the book
@@ratgurl1 - As I recall from the movie, only the bully's friend/confidant(s?) were laughing...the other students were just kind of staring, dumbfounded and not sure how to react. It's only in Carrie's mind that they all start laughing, as her mother's words ("they're all going to laugh at you!") echo over and over. I mean, she even sees the nice gym teacher "laughing at her," and we see explicitly that that didn't happen in reality.
I think this happends in all of king's works, he interprets horror as a tragedy, and thats why people engage a lot with his books (and thats why we, Stephen King fans, hate the shinning adaptation from kubrik)
just rewatched the prom scene and you’re so right!!! my childhood brain didn’t pick up on that (although it seems a number of other people in the comment section made the same interpretation). interestingly pretty much everyone is laughing in the book, albeit nervously like i wrote, but the scenes we are meant to take as true in the movie just have the explicit villains laughing. clearly king and de palma had slightly different great ideas and i think the book nerd in me has a bias towards the description we get from a survivor in the book
Of course, a bit question hanging over the end of the movie is whether or not those other kids really ARE innocent. Sure, they didn't set up the blood shower trap. But they did let her suffer years of abuse at the hands of the Queen Bee, and many of them did point and laugh at earlier abuses. Is "I didn't do anything when I should have" the same as "I didn't do anything wrong", in terms of innocence?
I was in an evangelical christian cult when Midsommar came out. It was such an emotional experience that I became obsessed with why it was so powerful and I eventually came to the conclusion that I was indoctrinated and needed to be deprogrammed. 10/10 would recommend because now I’m safe and finally building the life I deserve.
I’m happy for you :)
The thing with Promising Young Women is that it isn't really a rape revenge movie, although they're featured in it. Fennell said multiple times it's about grief and how it and trauma can ruin one's life and affect their actions. She succeeded in exactly what she wanted to convey and it's so annoying that some people trash it just because it wasn't exactly what THEY ASSUMED it was, which is something it was never trying to be.
That makes so much sense! I really love the movie and relate to it, as I’m also still grieving the loss of a friend. Grief feels helpless, but anger (at the people/circumstances surrounding my friend’s death) seems productive somehow, even though I know I can’t change the past.
I super agree. For me, the rape revenge category feels less like it's intended for victims and more for the purpose of the male gaze.
If I have to watch interviews with the director or creator to learn what a movie is about then the movie did a bad job of conveying it imo. I liked the movie until the end. Everything seemed plausible to me until the ending. It just felt off and with the cops coming in to save the day in a way they wouldn’t.
@@quirkyblackenby The cops do not save the day. They bungle the investigation, and they have to have the information literally handed to them.
i can see why midsommar is interpreted as a good for her movie. i thought the same thing the first time i watched it, but that just means the cult's indoctrination worked on us too.
It kind of scares me how many people think it is a "good for her" ending. Most of us think we could never be indoctrinated to a cult or radicalized, but a movie got us in like 2 hours
I just can't help but root for her, her boyfriend is so beyond horrible that it feels cathartic in a way
@@sorcellerie Is he worse than the murder cult?
I haven’t seen it, but I thought the ending was supposed to be symbolic of the abusive cycle Dani is stuck in? I remember watching a video with a cult expert discussing scenes in the movie, and they said something about how the ending is just her replacing one abuse for another. Idk though.
I've always seen it as the opposite, like a "there are no good options for her" movie. Either she lets herself be happy with the low hanging fruit in this cult that will likely kill her if she tries to leave or, if she successfully manages to leave, she has to climb the Mt Everest of dealing with all the trauma in her life (significant even before the murder cult entered the picture) with nothing on her side and no guarantee she'll even be happy. My thoughts were less "good for her" and more "well, I guess it's a good thing you didn't have much going for you in the real world because you're probably stuck here."
Tell me how every single movie you mention as "Good for her" trope/genre adjacent was either my all time favorite or a grandly enjoyed watch? This analysis was tailor made for me apparently!
What's your favorite favorite? As an introduction to the genre?
@@MaryanaMaskar I would say "Ready or Not"
@@teodorapetkovic thank you, it's amazing! Clue meets Addams family values meets Rambo! I had a great time.
@@MaryanaMaskar I'm glad you liked it!
I feel like there needs to be a second, separate but related genre called "Bad for Her, Cathartic for Me." Carrie, Dani, Amy and similar characters' endings aren't GOOD for them, but they can still be cathartic to watch if you've ever been in that position where it feels like there is no justice and no escape from the injustice except to go total scorched earth to punish the person(s) who wronged you.
That's how I feel about Midsommar too. Yes she was indoctrinated into a cult, and yet when we're there with her, feeling her fragility, it does feel oddly good. She was given a family, she was given care, she was given revenge in a way. A way that I'm sure was cathartic after all she'd been through. When we step back we can see how it did not at all turn out good for her, but it did still feel like an odd sense of justice.
But of course the problem with the whole enterprise is that allowing oneself to indulge in the feelings of catharsis that self-destructive revenge can impart is itself actually psychologically toxic to the viewer. It's basically emotional junkfood of a kind that can radicalize already frustrated people in deeply unhelpful ways and normalize the lionization of revenge violence in society. This is the same logic by which stochastic terrorism propaganda works - it gets us emotionally addicted to the short lived "feel good" hit of feeling vindicated and safe after being triggered by a dramatically exaggerated portrayal of an otherwise legitimate but socially complex fear. It's also toxic because it can do the opposite of radicalization - it can make the viewer interpassive - i.e., "I'm frustrated and scared and want to make change, so I'm gonna watch this "hero" do make change in this movie...ahhh, that's better. I feel better now, so I'm not gonna go out and make change IRL. In fact, I'm gonna become even more complacent and ambivalent in my lack of power because I know I can just get a feel good hit of "feeling like I won" by watching this or similar movies again." It's just bad all around and it's a deeply ingrained symptom of our consumer capitalist culture. Why? because it's the same logic that advertising uses. Commercial advertising, political propaganda, emotionally toxic and ethically problematic junkfood narratives - it's all the same thing.
@@threeleggedrat9229 At what price was that catharsis, though? How much are we willing to value the character's (and by extension, our own) emotional catharsis over what is actually a better way to handle things or an actually "good ending"?
@@selfsaboteursounds5273 get your point but that's not really how life works and certainly not how trauma works. There is not magical happy ending.
@@Shirumoon How then, exactly, does life and trauma work? Since you seem to be all wise and all knowing know the matter with such certainty.
I completely agree with you. I wouldn't count Midsomer as a "Good For Her," film. The main character has less agency in the end, didn't orchestrate the deaths of her oppressors, and ended up in a murder cult doped out of her mind. She basically traded one oppressive system for another.
I like looking at Midsommar as a litmus test for how easily you'd be to trick into joining a cult. If you end the film thinking "Good for her" I have some bad news for you.
that's...oddly GENIUS !!
I agree but I'd like to add that being easy to indoctrinate doesn't have anything to with stupidity, but rather emotional vulnerability and a desperate need for community and structure and purpose. Emotions guide judgement, and even the smartest person can be drawn in if you get them at the right moment.
Damn now I wish I watched the movie before reading this comment
I think a lot of my interest in cults is a bit of a there by the grace of God (or my own vigilance or just sheer dumb luck) go I and part that a trait that creates a lot of problems elsewhere a stubborn refusal of direction actually helped me avoid that.
@@shara-v6074 yep. I can empathize with Dani, because it's "Good for her under the circumstances." I'm not vulnerable to a cult because I have friendships and community elsewhere.
It's also odd to me that we're expected to read the issue with her boyfriend as him having cheated on her, and to sympathize because he was drugged and tricked into cheating. But the issue with their relationship wasn't him cheating, it was him having one foot out the door. He wasn't drugged when he talked to Siv, the matriarch, about whether he was interested in Maja. And as someone who had someone break up with me by telling me that "Some things that used to be endearing are now annoying, like how you're always SO SUPPORTIVE!" the scene where Christian gets mad at Dani for picking a flower for him, because he insists she only does nice things so he'll feel bad, resonated. I'd say the moral is "Be kinder to your significant other than the murder cult."
After the breakup, "Uh-oh, you're being SUPPORTIVE again!" became a running joke among my friends. That'll keep us from needing a cult!
I thought I was the only one who found midsummer to be a cautionary tale for HER, everyone else thought it was a warning for men like HIM.
I spent the whole time in the village worrying about what would happen to her, and only at the very end I realized, that I've been watching this movie all wrong. Gotta watch it again sometime
@@schuechen you weren’t watching it wrong! She was found, lured, and indoctrinated at a very vulnerable time in her life. For me the movie does a great job at showing the ways that cults pull in vulnerable people. It’s not a happy ending for her and I hate when people say it is.
It can be both. It is a cautionary tale for her.... but he absolutely should've broken up with her
@@gleewhoseline198 absolutely. But he’s not evil either. Would you be able to break up with someone so soon after their entire family just died? I can absolutely understand not wanting to be there but feeling like you can’t really leave. It’s a mistake for sure. Absolutely he should have broken up with her a long time ago. But it is also an understandable mistake to make. The relationship was toxic on both sides honestly.
I think the issue is that it's dealing with complex emotions/topics that make it hard for people to process all of it beyond "thing good" or "thing bad" - like they see 'oh this group is helping her deal with her pain and grief in a way no one else has', and assume that means it must be good and miss the point that this is how cults and other groups that indoctrinate people operate - if they weren't tempting, if they didn't offer people something they need in that moment, they wouldn't exist. Which also makes it a cautionary tale for viewers, especially the oblivious viewers who didn't pick up on that message, showing how vulnerable they too would be in that environment.
"Gone Girl is NOT a Good for Her movie!" THANK YOU! I cannot tell you how much it irks me that Amy Elliot was treated like a hero, when the whole point of her being written was to be a villain. She's a perfect villain, though.
This. Specifically Amy is the villain to everyone: her husband, her affair partner, her gender and her society but especially to herself. She’s got power over Nick at the end, and through him shapes her circumstances to a more tolerable place than before, but she never escaped The Cool Girl. She just evolved into the Stepford Wine Mom.
They're both the villain
@@SharkPalace Are you effing serious? Nick lost his mother and his job in the space of five years AND had to be next of kin to a dementia-stricken father he was never close to. On top of that, his wife was a covert narcissistic abuser, but try telling that to anyone else as a MAN. And that was BEFORE the missing shit went down. Yes, Nick cheated on his wife, and the fact that it was a teenager makes it an abuse of power as well. And yet, he clearly valued Andie as a human being, as he did Amy. In spite of how the latter was treating him, HE wanted a baby with HER. And after all of that, Amy painted him as a physically abusive prick just because he wouldn't pretend to be someone SHE wanted. Nick's not a perfect victim, he's an arsehole. But he's still a VICTIM of abuse. He literally has all the hallmarks. If Nick was a woman, we'd be rooting for him and you know it. He is an Anti-Hero, not a Villain.
Exactly! This has always bothered me about that movie, and has really taken from my enjoyment of it. I've met entirely too many women who relate to Amy which... it's like we finally have a female version of "characters you're not meant to relate to" such as Tyler Durden and Rick Sanchez. If you think Amy is a hero, I'm just going to back away from you very slowly.
She's fantastically written, wonderfully acted, but not a hero. She killed an innocent man, ffs. A, from what I remember of the film, decently good man.
smt
Sounds like that werewolf movie needs to be remade.
Yesssss!
The story concept is golden. There isn't even a snippet of film footage to see on youtube 😢 Why does birth of a nation get to exist and this burns in a fire, there's a conspiracy I swear 😭
I never even thought about the ending PYW the way you mentioned it. To me, yes he wouldn't answer for the rape, but he would answer for Cassie's murder. I never even considered that he wouldn't. Which ties in with how dismissive rape seems to be, but murder is not ignorable.
Exactly, that's why I am leaning on being okay with the ending. It seems fitting for that very reason. Society and law don't punish rape as harshly as murder, because in their eyes it's what the woman is for. Especially if that woman is sexually liberated, as Nina was. The whole injustice broke Cassie to the point in which she was willing to put her life in return for justice for both of them and I see why. Cassie felt especially responsible (unjustly, but still that were her feelings) so it felt like the solution to all problems in her view
@@sorcellerie I fully agree.
Maybe the one thing she realy wins is in asking th audience about justice, making meta rooting for her?!
And that by making it that tragic and adressed, being remembered, in the real world. A meta good for you?!
@@sorcellerie I agree with everything in your comment except for the disapproval of rape being punished to a lesser extend than murder, and I'm saying this as a rape survivor. If rape had the same or higher sentencing that murder, it would just send a message "If you want to rape her, just kill her afterwards, it won't make a difference", and that's more than extremely dangerous thought to give to a criminal.
I will never, ever, ever forget the shock and horror I felt watching Cassie being killed in PYW. The movie had me ready to celebrate her getting her revenge, and then it just hit me with the most realistic outcome, and I felt cold for the rest of the runtime. The rest of that day, actually. I felt like I'd lost a friend to the most horrible men imaginable. Max Greenfield's character still makes my skin crawl.
I don't even know if I can say I liked it or not. I mean, in some ways I loved it. The candy-colored aesthetic, the music, and especially Carey Mulligan are all extraordinary. And then there's that ice dagger to the heart. Can the film even be liked? Or merely admired for what it accomplishes to do to us? I don't know. But it surely did something to me. I haven't stopped thinking about it since.
I sobbed so hard in the theater, like legit loud ugly crying, when I realized she wasn't going to get away. I was shocked at how I physically reacted to it, when I should have known all along that it was already not that type of movie, how self-destructive she already had been. I just wanted anything but that, the actual realistic outcome. Thinking about watching it again (as good as it was!) makes my skin crawl - I can't remember the last time I felt that much of a gut punch from a movie.
@@dahliamagee going to the movie theater with you sounds fun. I mean it. I sobbed the same way during Everything Everywhere All at Once and people around me were veeeery uncomfortable. I loved it. But yeah, I have rewatched PYW and I still couldn't watch that scene. Too much.
I see where you all (including the host) is coming from in the sense that PYW is not a “good for her” movie, but in the most morbid sense, I have to say it is. Once she realized that the first man she let into her life after losing her friend to suicide was in fact complicit in her friend’s rape. This destroyed her sense of world view entirely and made her current existence either unlivable or unbearable any longer. After this morbid realization, she made the plans to move back revenge on her friends rapist. Yes, she dies in a very unsatisfactory way to us and it really wrecked me as well but she knew this outcome would happen and she was fine with being murdered to avenge her friend. She chose death to get justice against the perpetrator. Of course no one wanted to see her die but it’s not like she didn’t expect the outcome. She did and justice in some sense was still served.
“Can the film even be liked? Or merely admired for what it accomplishes to do to us?” This. This. Exactly this. PYW put me in shock for the entire ending sequence, it was like I couldn’t breathe, like my very thoughts stopped. Extremely well done and extremely awful to experience. Glad it happened, but will not be doing it again.
You put into words why the movie "Taken" has always bothered me. I hate that this girl who is put into this horrible, traumatic situation has to rely on her father to save her; watching it makes me feel like I have no autonomy or agency to save myself or even just take ownership of what happened to me (if that makes sense?). It also makes sense now why I loved the show "Jessica Jones" so much, she is repeatedly raped by Killgrave, but in the end she is the one who saves herself and gets "justice" for herself by killing Killgrave, but the show also doesn't shy away from the trauma it causes her, even after his death.
I’m curious, would it change your feelings about Taken if it was the mother who was the “action hero/savior”?
@@thrawncaedusl717 well, not entirely. On one hand, at least if a mother was the savior its not sending the message of "women have to rely on men to save them" but on the other hand, it would still suffer from the problem of a rape victim having to rely on someone else and having very little agency.
@@Anima19925 I don't really blame victims for relying on someone else. That what family and friends are there for when things are rough but you can't rely on them all the time
@@user-ooop I’m not saying that a victim should never rely on help, and I would never place blame on a victim. What I’m saying is that I take issue with a movie using a rape victim as a prop for the protagonist - the character of the victim should be treated like a real human, with agency and feelings (and realistically wouldn’t just all the sudden be okay after being rescued)
i get that, but i feel like stories from the perspective of a father, who feels the need to save or protect his children or family as a whole has a right to exist as well
I thought "Promising Young Woman" was excellent. But I remember a few of my female friends telling me that they'd been less than pleased with the ending. I absolutely understand that...but, I saw Cassie's character arc as the only way the story could truly go, without it feeling like a fairy tale. Yes, what happens to her is horrifying. But as written/directed by Fennel and performed by Mulligan, it felt as though Cassie knew that the odds were stacked against her, and was at peace with that. I still can't talk about this movie with a few of my friends, as while I 100% understand where they're coming from? I find the ending of the film Cassie's own HEA, cobbled together from the darkness that has haunted her for decades. I felt this one in my soul.
i really liked the movie, but it lacked catharsis for me. that was of course on purpose, but it still made the experience less “fun” (as for any movie in its own key) for me. still a very good movie though
I agree completely. The ending made a lot of sense to me. Cassie gives living a different life a chance when she dates Bo Burnham's character. A life within the confines of the misogyny around her but working around it to find her own safe spaces and joy. Only for all the things she was trying to move past to come slamming back into her life and she is forced to face the horrible world of sexism that she knows now she cannot escape. She sees no way out, walks towards her doom, and does what she can to bring some shred of justice on the way out.
I have a lot of problems with PYW, and they all come long before the ending. In fact, I get what the ending was doing, even though I agree that having the catharsis come from the police was fucking stupid and antithetical to everything.
It's a very...white feminist movie. I liked it as a movie, but I definitely dislike it thematically, if that makes sense. Princess Weekes has a great video on the movie that I think both fans and critics should watch.
@@obara7366 right? I wanted a vigilante type thing but in the end the cops save the day. 🙄boring
@@quirkyblackenby If you actually pay attention, they don't really. They mess up the investigation, don't realise how suspicious Bo Burnham is acting and are just eager to write it off as suicide. They literally have to have the information handed to them
Knives Out being discussed in any context is fantastic, so I’m here for this.
Just watched Glass Onion today. I hope they keep making more.
Fried Green Tomatoes is my ultimate Good For Her flick (could Murder Lesbians be a sub genre? the old “sapphics are coming to destroy the fabric of traditional society and seduce your daughters” trope but now it’s positive)
Kathy Bates also starred in another film, Dolores Claiborne, which has a rape-revenge theme and powerful Good for Her scene.
That is an Excellent choice for the "trope"!👏👏😁
@@vysharra YES!!👏👏 One of my Favorite movies, and an awesome example.😊
Are there other murder lesbian movies??
@@alim.9801 Thelma & Louise comes immediately to mind. Practical Magic doesn’t have lesbian main characters (the aunts might be gay, it’s been a bit since I watched it) but I definitely get Disaster Bi vibes from Nicole Kidman’s character.
Haven’t watched the video till the end yet but I immediately remembered Casey Cooke from the movie Split (2016) when you mentioned ”Final Girl Subversion”. The thing is, that character has always bothered me. I don’t really know how to feel about the message that the movie sends. Casey is the only one of the girls who survived the kidnapping. She is constantly shown to be more competent than her classmates, being smarter, stronger, and adapting much faster than them. At the end (SPOILER ALERT) it is revealed that most of those surviving skills came from her uncle (and legal guardian) who has been SA her since her childhood. She is speared by the Beast “because she has suffered” and that definitely doesn’t sit well with me. It’s almost like the movie was trying to say that being SA made her stronger. That same trope has been brought up in Game Of Thrones with Sansa Stark, where she straight on said that all of the abuse made her stronger
I can understand why you interpreted Split this way. I've seen many other people with the same takeaway.
Personally, I really enjoyed the ending. Realistically, trauma like SA only ever causes bad things, and those bad things often compound on one another. You isolate yourself and can't connect with others. You don't do well in school or have the motivation to take your life anywhere. You're more likely to end up with other people who will hurt you.
So when she was getting chased there was this sense of "After everything she's survived, she's going to die like this."I felt that she was receiving an unfair fate as trauma victims often do. So when, instead, for once in her life, her trauma actually brought her something good, I dunno, I get that it's not realistic, and I understand why people who have experienced SA wouldn't want portrayals that show any "benefits" from such a horrible thing, but to me it felt like a relief. That being broken doesn't mean that there's only bad ends for me.
I didn’t find the character necessarily stronger, just more experienced in navigating trauma.
thisssss
I just assume “the beast” related to her so he speared her. He is part of a DID system after all and I think their trauma is discussed in the movie.
Oh, don't remind me of what Game of Thrones did to Sansa Stark. GRRM needs to finish TWOW because I need to know what actually happens next with Sansa and George has been abundantly clear it is nothing like the show. He released a Sansa sample chapter right after that episode aired and that shit puts Sansa in a completely different trajectory - I see her charming her way into power in the Vale and getting out from under creepy Littlefinger's grip, and eventually marching up North *with* an army to Winterfell's aid.
A particularly telling example of the "is she going mad with revenge?" double standard (@43:00) is looking at the Punisher (comics and derivatives). This is a character that has been consumed by his desire for revenge into becoming the mortal personification of it. He admits in at least some comics that he is not really a decent person anymore, even admonishing someone that viewed him as a role model. And yet real life people do actually hold him up as a role model; as some sort of model of masculine protectiveness, as if he wasn't twisted into a monstrous form by the path that he walks.
One of my favorite punisher moments is from one of the films. He kills an undercover cop in one of his attacks. He goes to the mans wife and offers to let her kill him. She sends him away, but it encompasses his absolutism in justice.
Red hood has similar lines in the comics. Summarized, he basically says his own death will balance the books, so to speak, for his crimes.
It's horrifying, but so perfectly self-aware and displays the true evil of their actions, however they justify them.
Midsummar tricked us into being so happy her awful boyfriend had died and that Dani was allowed to express her emotions for once that we were excited for her to be in a *cult* of all things
Her awful boyfriend was also raped, drugged, and murdered. If you seriously think that it was a good thing then you need to rethink some things lol
Yo, speak for yourself. I find it disturbing that anyone would think that being a bad boyfriend would justify being paralyzed and burned alive.
I didn't get that. I mean, he was an awful man, but he was raped and murdered for his incapability of quitting out the unwanted relationship after her family's death. It's creepy to me that wanting out and being a douche makes it ok for him to raped and murdered while if it was a woman we'd be raising red flags all over it.
@@hikariluanGC this.
Okay when you talked about "I May Destroy You" made me tear up. I may watch this series because I've been so consumed with thinking of revenge, day and night, to my abusers without thinking of prioritizing processing my feelings and emotions.
i know this comment is old but i felt the same way you do in 2020 when i got away from some bad ppl. you will get through this, you're strong, everything is gonna be ok💕❤️
i recommend listening to music that can release anger!! may 2023 treat you good ❤️
"Enough" starring Jennifer Lopez was the 'Good For Her' movie that sticks out for me from my childhood. Female protagonist, stuck in toxic system, plays by her own rules, triumphs over system (albeit through violence, but self-defense & protection of child so maybe seen as more virtuous).
idk if Jennifer's Body is included in any of the original good genre tweets, but that was all I could think about while watching this.
Yeah I was looking for this, female director too I think?
@@RP-ws8fl Yup! Female director and writer
Well she does literally escape a physical location but not the system. She's definitely not feeling guilty for the revenge but unfortunately she's also not completely liberated. We don't see what she does with herself after the credits scene but honestly still an iconic movie.
not for jennifer, but it is for needy i think
When it comes to thinking of "Good for Her" as a genre, I'm reminded of the linguistics concept of a "Sprachbund", which is when geographically adjacent languages share common characteristics even if they come from completely separate language families. "Good for Her" seems to be working in the same way as a Sprachbund by bridging films across genres with similar themes despite not being a true genre itself.
i was fcking fuming by the end of the film after watching the cult successfully manipulate Dani and get away with all the murders, and was totally caught off guard that a huge portion of audiences thought Midsommar had a happy or even victorious ending. Like huh????
If cult indoctrination tactics didn't work on plenty of people, cults wouldn't exist.
I love midsommar and agree with this take. I think the reason is mistaken as a good for her movie is because you're supposed to go on that ride with her. You get seduced by the cult with her. She's so I'm need and alone and tragic that your desire to see her with community makes you enjoy seeing the cult gather around and emotionally support her. So it is a yikes for her movie, but still feels cathartic. I love the mixture of emotions I feel watching it. A true horror
That's always how I've felt too! It's easy to feel "good for her", because we are seeing things through her lense. We understand and feel good for her because of how cathartic it is. We want so desperately for her to find comfort, that even though in the end she became indoctrinated into a cult, it still felt like a sense of justice for her fragile state of being. Hindsight, sure, it's an absolutely horrific ending, but when we're there with her it does feel so just.
That's the manipulation tactics at play. Cults want you to think you're being emotionally supported and comforted, when what they actually do is strip your defenses and make you dependent. If you feel a sense of relief or happiness at the end, it meant worked on you too (it initially did for me too).
People who after watching Midsommar and feel Dani is better than she was in the past would get trapped in a cult themselves and that’s really concerning
I think Last Night in Soho has an interesting take on the whole good for her narrative, viewing the good-for-her main character from the lens of another woman who can sympathise with her but eventually also even falls victim to her.
Excellent video. "I may destroy you" is possibly the most nuanced take on the complexities of rape situations I've ever seen, I love the non-perfect-victim-ness of Arabella and the range of different scenarios shown in it (without practically any explicit scenes) I cannot believe that the series was so overlooked by TV awards, it deserved all of them.
i couldn't watch it bc it sounded to close to what happened to me, how non-explicit is it? bc i might watch it (eventually) if i can get through it without spiraling
So the kid from The Black phone enters in the Good for her (him) genre. He was bullied, abused by his dad, and later kidnapped , he not only escapes but gets revenge on behalf of the other kids and himself.
the true catharsis is seeing someone point out the midsommar ending isnt a happy one and not a Good For Her moment. i honestly hated the movie when i watched it bc i was rly weirded out by people seeing it as that (especially a lot of people pondering on the cheating part when thats not really what happened there) and thinking that was supposed to be the movies message. i didnt rly think further tbh bc i was caught up by that fact so i appreciate the angle you brought up, maybe it does have some rights,
i had no idea people thought midsommar was a good ending for florence pugh's character. cant believe you could say that after sitting there watching this woman lose everything and then be manipulated into a cult
As I see it, Promising Young Woman is to the Good for Her genre as Titanic is to the romance genre.
The ending can be sad, incomplete or bittersweet and still be firmly in the genre. No one needs to die in a horror movie for it to be a horror movie. It just takes more work to succeed.
I've heard about the play Gaslight so many times when people talk about the origin of the term but this is the first time I've ever heard the full story involving her turning it back on him in the end, actually interested in watching it now
This is such a complex genre, because there's a massive difference in storytelling style, tone, and goals in films like Knives Out and Promising Young Woman, and yet I can see why they're put under the same umbrella. I have more thoughts which are too long for a UA-cam comment, but great thought-provoking video, as always.
Came here after watching The Menu. Definitely fits the genre. Gotta say I do love the trope since it's essentially a more proactive final girl.
9 to 5 is honestly one of my favorite iterations of this trope
When you mentioned gothic genre it actually reminded me of someone who could fit into good for her genre. Edith Cushing from Crimson Peak. Spoilers ahead if you haven't seen it.
I don't remember all of it really well but from what I do, I definitely had good for her moment at the end of the movie. Especially cause Edith's character development goes from young, naive girl into someone who has to basically survives not only heartbreak (Thomas was a victim too! but she still is betrayed) but also poisoning and m*rder attempt from Lucille and save herself while being completely emotionally and physically isolated. It's basically Midsommar but with Edith taking charge at the end. It's not a perfect movie, it has it's flaws but I think it works for this. Too bad this movie is completely overlooked and hurt by marketing department, cause I think it works in "good for her" genre pretty good
Thanks for mentioning this movie! I love it SO much, my friend group all are fans.
I've been calling this genre "girlpower murder ballads" because my first exposure was "Goodbye Earl" by the chicks & country music had this "kill your shitty husband" subgenre. Ballads don't even have to be musical. Anyways, this has been part of my understanding of femininity & I've been reckoning lately with the carcerality & racism of this femininity, and I want to thank you for discussing this sort of deconstruction.
I use girlpower instead of feminism because the power sometimes serves patriarchy. For example, some songs in the genre especially around the 2010's in the indie genre would feature jealous/scorn lovers in sapphic relationships basically taking on the previous murder ballad genre tropes that centered men being femiciders.
I especially appreciated you saying how men/patriarchy are often the actual writers of these movies, because to say the least of it when I figured out that those 1990's nickelodeon movies were written for 1990's adults instead of kids I felt so taken advantage of since Nickelodeon from that era advertized itself as youth liberation. I've been trying to process how this sort of dynamic was active with the cultural revolution & maoism as well.
Please note I'm centering USAmerican TV channels here as well as with the country music.
PS, I wonder how the "lifetime movie" genre interacts with this because I've noticed they tend to focus more on motherly property & fighting for one's husband instead of feminism even though they focus a lot on femicide & I've seen a lot of TERFs relate to the lifetime movie genre.
Wait, what was that about Maoism and the cultural revolution?
Maybe you misogynism then 😂
@@naikigutierrez4279 there was an era where Mao and his wife were doing a very 'it's all about the YOUTHS rise up and throw off the oppressive ideas of these lame adults' thing and it was used to purge a lot of folks and other big upheavals, as I understand it. Hopefully someone with more knowledge can add.
How is this femininity racist ?
Your hair looks wonderful at all stages, but WOW freshly dyed is extra gorgeous!
Just saw Promising Young Woman, and it was such a punch in the gut. Even knowing what the ending would be, I think I wasn't prepared enough for it. This movie wasn't cathartic for me, it was more of a tragedy than anything else. Thank you for your wonderful videos and movie recommandations. (I know this comment doesn't read as positive at all, but in the end it really is. I'm glad Rowan introduced me to this movie which I had never heard of !)
Deathproof & Jackie Brown are definitely one of my favorites of this newly named genre, if you're looking for examples of black and brown women that would fit the bill I think.
Yessss thank you for mentioning Deathproof! It's my favorite.
I still felt satisfied and a sort of "good for her" feeling even though cassie died at the end of promising young woman, because she still made her own decisions, did everything on her own terms, and got her revenge on the people who hurt her friend, her death is a way of exposing to those people how bad they really were despite thinking of themselves as good people, so I would argue it fits the genre
As someone who was bullied as a teen, I can watch "Carrie" (I prefer the 70s version) and cheer every time I see the prom goers die and the school burn down. Carrie's death at the conclusion of the story doesn't diminish the thrill I get in vicariously living out a violent fantasy through the movie that I would never enact in real life.
The idea that "Midsomar" is a "good for her" movie never quite sat right for me either. thank you for putting it into words that I don't believe I could ever have come up with.
The first “Good For Her”-esque movie I remember watching was the movie _Enough_ starring Jennifer Lopez. I swear, when I was about 10 years old, that movie had a stranglehold on me, I watched it repeatedly on dvd.
Same!! My mom and I watched that movie every time it came on lifetime growing up, and it did a lot
we watched that in my health class, def a great good for her movie
I never got the miss honey is a lesbian read but once you’ve said it yeah that’s that’s perfectly true I will never be able to not see her that way you have made the film and the character better with that one sentence
here to declare that glass onion is also a good for her movie
I love that you included lyrics from the Matilda musical... Tim Minchin is a genius.
What a fantastic analysis. This is a great breakdown of this genre and its subversions, moments, tropes, etc. The smart home technology being used to gaslight is truly terrifying.
Carrie hits SO DIFFERENT when you’re the victim of bullying and an abusive parent. Contempt for the people hurting you turns into contempt for EVERYBODY because no one is doing anything about it. Even tho it’s morally reprehensible, if you can remember that feeling, the catharsis is SO real.
tw: unaliving
I think if I had read it as a teen, who was significantly more mentally ill than I am now, I would have seen the ending of Carrie as a ‘good for her’ moment, just because she ESCAPED all of that.
Kill Bill kept coming to mind as I watched this. Another example of what men think women need in a Good For Her.
I'd also argue Inglorious Bastards, mostly because I always felt the Bastards were more of a plot device that my MC, Shosanna, utelizes to get her ultimate revenge. The story centers around her and her struggles.
I really appreciate your comments about how privilege affects the ways that films audiences typically respond to 'revenge' or 'good for her' narratives. There is a certain amount of 'wiggle room' that female protagonists will have to triumph over adversity or to display 'monstrous' characteristics while doing so. For women that are already rendered 'Other' by virtue of racism, ableism, transphobia etc. that 'wiggle room' is greatly diminished, and their self-preservation tactics - no matter how heroic - are more likely to be construed as a direct affront to the white, cisheteronormative status-quo. Attractive white women make good final girls because they can be made into objects of both desire and sympathy for a larger audience IF they can ably demonstrate that they are the 'right' kind of girl. Glad to see Carol J Clover's work is still getting some traction!
I would also state that the movie Alice starring Keke Palmer fits within this cinematic universe as well. And perhaps The Color Purple
I had a vague awareness of this as a genre, but you put it into words perfectly. Also made me realize that some of my writing is like a transmasc version of this genre, which I hadn't thought about before (but man, is it cathartic to write). Thanks for another great video!
Good for him/them(?)
"Well, I'm here to tell you today that there are criteria for the Good for Her genre because I have simply made them up." Good for you!
I’m not on Twitter, so i missed all this discourse, but pretty much all my favourite movies are on that list lmao, so obviously i can finally pin down what my favourite genre is! 😂
What an EXCELLENT video! As someone writing a feminist theatre piece where trauma and violence are very much centre stage, this concept and analysis of it will be incredibly helpful to keep in the back of my mind while writing the characters' journeys. Thank you so much!
What about the movie enough (2002) starring Jenifer Lopez.
That's a movie where a woman trapped in an abusive marriage murders her husband out of fear for life. At the end when the cops show up one of them tells her that she's one of the lucky ones for being about to get out.
It's a movie i never hear talked about that i think is Relevant to this discussion. Good for her.
So glad you brought up I May Destroy You - it's criminally underrated, and I get excited every time people bring it up. Let it live on forever in our cultural awareness!
Glass Onion and the Menu are both fun Good For Her energy movies
I see the "Good for Her" genre as being on the rise and especially relevant with women, queer people, Indigenous people and other marginalised groups being able to speak about and gain platforms off their trauma. I am even inspired to write my own story and make it into that but I also think that in a way these movies are as painful to watch as they are carthatic
I remember having a conversation with friends and said something about how I felt really bad for Dani at the end, and one of my friends asked why and I had to be like "...the cult?"
It felt so weird to me how many people didn't recognize that just because her bf was a bad guy didn't make the literal cult good guys.
Do Revenge is such a good example of this genre.
I enjoy your videos so much, this is the second video i listen to while running, you are so soft spoken while making really good points
Why are you videos so well researched and put together? Damn. I'm constantly blown away!
I really don’t want to watch this movie, as a survivor from a cult myself, but I’ve watched some video analyses about it, because I was curious. It kind of terrifies me how many people think the ending is good/happy. (Not like in the analyses of anything, but like in general reviews of the movie)
Thank you for your video! You do such amazing work! I‘m such an old Millenil and not involved in any twitter conversations about this, but I had a thought about the „Good For Her“ phrase itself. In Arrested Development, Lucille says that line while she is off of her antidepressants and “depressed about [her youngest son being born]”, and it’s in response to a story about a woman killing herself and her children. I guess, to me, I would think that the „Good For Her“ label would be applied to stories that are not really… good for her. To me the irony of the phrase is the point and is well applied to stories about self destruction in response to an unjust social system. By that logic, Matilda is “Good for her!!!” and Midsommar is #goodforher. Embarrassing for me that I watched this much Arrested Development #yikesforme
Sorry to sort of self promo but I recently made a video myself focussing on femininity and revenge and the idea of ‘fantasised justice’ as you put it.
I’m fascinated by female lead revenge films, but I feel like we’ve reached the point where the trope is kind of self destructing? The last shot of the ‘smiling woman’ has already become a cliche in an incredibly small time and i feel like a lot of filmmakers are beginning to tack in on when its unearned. I’ve found media like ‘I May Destroy You’ much more intriguing by avoiding this trope and focussing on the emptiness of fantasy and impossibility of catharsis.
Anyway, love your thoughts on this Rowan!
Before I finish watching this, I would like to recommend The Perfection as a film that has queer retribution. I watched it this spooky season and loved it
I agree with Rowan but, and called me a pyscho, but I definitely had a “good for her” feeling at the end of Gone Girl
I think anyone who's ever dealt with a partner like Nick said "good for her" on some level by the end. Amy is definitely not meant to be a hero, but wanting to fuck up the life of someone who hurt you when they were supposed to love you is a universal intrusive thought 😅
I would argue that Kristie is my favourite final girl; from Hellraiser. The Cenobites only come when they are called, and they take who summons them. However brief, they do let her go. She is also explicitly confident in her sexuality and is an incredibly smart protagonist. In fact, she retains agency.
I love your commentary on Promising Young Woman- I really enjoyed the movie but understand a lot of the critiques. Something that kind of adds to your analysis of it as an intentional subversion of this genre is the marketing. The ads for the film implied that it was in fact a murderous rampage story. Specifically I remember the clip implying blood dripping from the main characters hand, revealed in the movie to be something innocuous (was it jelly from a donut? I can't remember).
im surprised you didnt mention The Handmaiden (2016), especially when its one of the movies that intersects race (japanese occupation of korea), gender, and sexuality.
Not a movie?
@@PennyAfNorberg ?
oh do you think i meant the handmaid's tale (2017)?
@@PennyAfNorberg it’s a Korean movie unrelated to the Atwood book, just had a similar title.
Thank you for pointing out Amy Dunn is 100% not a good for her character but a villain with sympathetic aspects. Her character is very rooted in the need for power and control, and the movie, whilst delving into aspects about gender roles, is far more about the power struggle between two deeply flawed individuals. Making it as a pure good for her movie undercuts the message.
I’m so sad I didn’t get to see this live
As a Knives Out enthusiast, I also love how Glass Onion deals with the corrupt legal system-- kind of for the benefit of the protagonist at the end, but explicitly when Blanc says that he can find the truth, but can't garuntee any legal action.
haven’t finished the video just yet so maybe she gets mentioned, but I think Ripley from the Alien series is an example of “the final girl,” at least to an extent
I’d also put, “The Menu,” in this incredibly fascinating genre I’ll be obsessed with for the next month. If you’re unfamiliar, I’d very much recommend checking it out, it is simply *chefs kiss* All I’ll say is that it ends with the leading lady eating a good ass cheeseburger on a boat while she watches the source of all her torment over the past 8 hours go up in flames.
The phrase “ a meme from about 20 years ago” hurt me more than it should have
I feel an aspect of Good For Her as you describe it being so strong a genre is from how it taps into the desire of wanting power to right wrongs. When you talk about them, I'm thinking it is the same as John Wick. Something deeply personal is hurt, and it inspires a empowering revenge where a balance is made by extracting a price from those who hurt the sympathetic character.
I really like the takeaways of this video.
Midsommar is horror and it watches like a horror, watching somebody be manipulated while there is nothing you can do about it, and the worst part is, you know full well that she is the only one who can break herself out of it, even if you were there there is nothing you could do or say to help
I think the first movie I watched that left a very strong and memorable "good for her!" impression on me was "I Spit On Your Grave." (I had a similar experience watching Lisbeth get her revenge on her sadistic probation officer in "The Girl With a Dragon Tattoo.") Thanks for including a special section on that type of film!
"i spit on your grave" is an exploitation movie tho, at leaast IIRC, the rape scene is pretty exploitative (in the male gaze sense).
that said, same.
In the films you discuss, there seems to be a common element of women using their minds to outsmart the system, or the villain. In the final example, the heroine uses wisdom to choose the best path forward.
Super cool video. I think I've got an example of a (kind of) Final Girl that predates the slasher genre: Mina Harker-Murray. People die all around her, but she makes it to the end. While she might not be a virgin by the end, she's definitely more-aligned with the "proper" virgin archetype than her best friend Lucy who, in the book at least does die a virgin.
You got that impression? Please correct me if I'm remenbering or getting wrong, but only two of seven or eight protagonists die, right? She fits as final girl because one was the only other woman? Or the three female vampires are also counted? Or Lucy's second death spins her inital impression around? I have seen Mina as a "Why can't a single screenwriter do her justice?!" character so it feels weird to see her put as final girl type
53:14
This. Just this.
I get asked again and again stuff like "Why can't you get over it" and "what are things to do that could help you heal " and its, that sentance is what I want. Its "I don't know, I wish my brain would let it go I am trying to move on slowly with my life".
All these different scenarios where the person who hurt me is hurt, or we repair our relationship or any other fantasy always ends with me thinking that I still wouldn't be happy, I still wouldn't be healed from whatever hurt or healing that existed like that.
me healing is going to have to be a me thing, its gotta be my brain letting it go. I still have no idea how or if I'll get there some day. But it gives me hope that with time, all wounds heal. Its how I keep living and keep being excited for the next day regardless to what happened to me in the past.
Hooded-eye human here: I love what you're doing with your eyeliner.
the way people debated that the Good For Her genre couldn't exist because they didn't all share criteria really says it all. So annoying. At least we got this video.
I was discussing this with someone else because I typically do not like horror or thrillers . My friend argued that it wasn't true that's not true as my favorite movies in that genre are Carrie, Ginger Snaps, Hard Candy, and Audition. I love horror and thrillers when I feel sympathy for the lead. This is easy with women characters going through things (realistic or metaphorical) that I understand personally.
Maybe theres a possible difference between the "Good for her" (Knives out and the like) and the "Good for her?" (Gone Girl, Midsommar).
I don't have any thoughts on Gone Girl but I think portraying Midsommar as empowering, even ironically is dangerous. Like the video said, that movie is a study on how cults prey on the vulnerable, she is not safe, she is not loved in that cult, she is always at the risk at getting hurt and killed in that cult. That is not at all a 'good for her' moment and cults shouldn't be portrayed as empowering and helpful, even as a joke.
I think people get the impression midsommar was a 'good for her' moment because of how happy she is at the end of the movie but that's, how a cult works? Just like how people actively planning a suicide attempt will be in high spirits, happiness does not correlate safety or good mental health, in fact it very often means the opposite.
@No Hetero Tho
I haven’t watched the video yet so ignore me if I’m repeating what has been said.
But wasn’t it a white supremacist Nordic cult too?
@No Hetero Tho There's neo nazi imagery and motifs throughout the film
@@noheterotho179 Thanks for your reply, my question mark in "good for her?" (to be read with questioning intonation) was meant as a "yikes, it's not really good for her". I would put a greater emphasis on Gone Girl in my statement, where the main character ends up back in her relationship instead of getting herself and her husband killed. And in Midsommar it was more that she made it out alive (at least by the end of the movie). But of course it's still a massive "yikes". Sorry for any misunderstandings.
@@noheterotho179 i think it depends on how you are viewing the movie. for me it was very symbolic - it's a movie about breaking up with a bad partner, and moving on from your grief of losing family. I didn't feel as if the cult aspect was actually as important as the break up theme. the fact the movie ends on Dani's smile, and not say, 2 days later to see how the cult treats her post end credits - makes it seem like the cult was less important to the director than the emotion finale of her character arc. (which is undeniably the part people emphasized with and drew catharsis from)
This video was amazing. I think the 2022 film "The Invitation" also falls into the Good for her category and features a female POC lead, and it's just amazing. I'd love to see a video on this, but overall would just really recommend the movie
You covered WAY too many great points in this! I love it ~~
this was, without a doubt, my favorite video essay I've watched all year - and we're in November! you're so amazing, Rowan!
Like everyone else, I think that the end of Midsommar was a horrible ending, at least morally. But what I don’t see a lot from most people is the fact that the antagonistic boyfriend was raped and then murdered. Then people still call it “good for her?” That’s horrible.
I watched Midsommer years ago and I was so horrified by the ending. I dont understand how People see it as a Good for Her Movie. I know that guy Was a piece of shit, but that absolutely does not justify his punishment. The way he treated her was horrible, especially when her family died and she was desperate for a community and emotional support. But damn what happened to him was so fucking gross, it just made me feel bad for him. She was trapped inside of a murder cult because they manipulated her need for a community that cared for her. For her it feels like a happy ending, even with everything she witnessed them doing. And if she decides to leave, they'll murder her. But that probably will never happen, because she had no problem seeing her (ex-) boyfriend getting murdered by her newfound family, so what reason would she have to leave. I do feel bad for her, but I still deeply dislike her. Some of my recollections of the movie may be wrong, since I've watched it a long time ago.
I think people interpret the fact that he voluntarily decided to drink the drugged drink-knowing it was drugged-as him having decided to do it. From the way the scene is filmed, you can tell he knows what he’s actually drinking. As for whether this is a fair interpretation or not, I’m unsure. Regardless of whether you paint what he did as consensual, he still shouldn’t have been killed.