My army is like 90% Firstborn, and boy is it seeing a joyous revival. My Tac Squads, Attack Bikes, and Command Squad are all looking particularly triumphant in this return
@@James80312 Lore reasons, most likely. It's only been a couple hundred years since the Primaris arrived, so in mixed Chapters the majority of the leadership is still Firstborn. Even in Chapters that have taken heavy losses among their leadership, Firstborn just have more combat and command experience when it comes time to promote replacements.
>primaris >less likely to be phased out never underestimate GW, my friend. >Small Glurmo #1: But, Your Highness, she's a commoner. Her Slurm will taste foul. Slurm Queen: Yes! Which is why we'll market it as New Slurm. Then, when everyone hates it, we'll bring back Slurm Classic, and make billions!
I'm sticking with "1st born" mostly cause (A) My whole army is them from 5th/6th edition & (B) I have not the time, desire or money to get/paint new models other than the few I have since returning for late 8th - early 9th. If they totally removed the "1st born" in 10th I'd probably just have to quit & only play 9th forever with friends (or whatever armies they had in future editions) For those wondering "Then why or what models did u buy a few months ago?" I got: 1 3-man of Centurions cause I wanted a "pure Dakka squad" cause I didn't have that before 1 Space wolves Venerable Dreadnought, cause that's all my local shop had for Dreadnought's at the time, That became a Grey Knight Dreadnought 1 5-man Deathwatch Kill Team & 1 5-man Grey Knight Paladin's, that when mixed with 5 old die-cast Grey Knights & 1 old die-cast Grey Knight Terminator I had collecting dust (long story), became: 1 10-man Strike squad, 1 3-man Paladin squad, 1 Terminator Apothecary, 1 Brother Captain & 1 "Custom made stand-in" Kaldor Drago... yah I just said "I'm gona build custom version of that guy one day" so I did oh & a (C) The fluff I made for my army back then makes having "Smaller" Space Marines okay to me
We have a split at the club I attend mostly the older guys have 1st born and the younger members have gone with primaris. Previously the games between them were just slightly in favour of the 1st born mainly due to the guys running the armies having played for a lot longer and got very slick forces they had used for a long time and many of the 1st born losses cold be put down to just a few bad rolls here and there. Now the 1st born have had a boost unless some of the experienced players start to roll out more primaris I can see them winning more games. This isn't a bad thing as it is encouraging some of the newer guys to look at armies other than SM my nids are getting a bit tired of facing off against primaris week after week after week.
In our local scene, across multiple FLGS. Firstborns are phased out. Even those that started in earlier editions like 2nd ed are just fielding only Primaris. I am the only one stubbornly clinging on to firstborns - painting / playing them.
Tacticals have one major advantage in being able to easily increase the number of special and heavy weapons in your army, without placing everything in one or two expensive squads that could be easily targeted and picked off by the enemy, or you can use them to simply further increase the number of various weapons without sacrificing basic anti-infantry prowess that much. 4 squads of tacticals, each with a lascannon are harder to decimate in a single turn than a devastator squad or a single predator - it also frees up your heavy support slot for something more fancy. Basically - good old tactical marines can be used to free up the slots for something more unique, or act as "hole plugging" unit - depending on loadout, they can supply a ranged firepower against every single type of opponent, and they will perform reasonably well - without the need to over-specialise like most Primaris units. Intercessors are "versatile" in the same sense as Dire Avengers - only by the virtue of more specialised units existing. That said - Primaris tend to be more effective than first-born Marines in their specialised roles... Like Eldar... Yeah... Primaris are basically Eldar that substitute unit toughness and wounds for model count...
Exactly my thought. Threat saturation is a thing. Whilst Interecessors have more shots they falter vs hard targets. Tacticals even have (the barely mentioned here) 1 points average 5MW Melta Bomb Strat too which makes it quite dangerous to bring any vehicle within their move+charge range.
I love that opportunity to repaint my older models. They are my oldest dudes, they were just laying around since the 6th edition, paint removed and taken apart, and I haven't had a reason to invest my time in them, but now they are quite good. And I just finished painting dudes that are absolute must, so I basically don't have any reason to procrastinate now.
They went up 3 points after previously going up 3 points. It's a little ridiculous that having 1 less attack and no stratagems .akes them only 2 points cheaper than Primaris. And Assault Marines are the same price despite how bad they are.
The single biggest reason why I would bring mini-marines for troops+transports? Rhino's and razorbacks cost a hell of a lot less than the disgusting price that Impulsors go for. I mean, the customizability on top is really nice too. That heavy/special/combi can really make the difference, especially when averages go out the window.
I couldn't agree more, especially about the price difference; I picked up a NIB Tactical Squad & Razorback for almost the same as 1 Impulsor. I also enjoy how customizable Firstborn are with the numerous ranges of bits.
@@tressil3607 I've been painting more mini marines lately, vanguards, special tacticals and termies. However with the Blood Angels patrol box that just got released I'm getting my first impulsor. Just so happens I can use it all.
When taking the whole picture into account (special and heavies as well as transports), tactical marines probably aren’t going to be in tournament winning lists or anything. But considering how small a part of the 40k community that represents it’s not an overall bad thing. It DOES mean the huge number of people who are sitting on big lists or collections of Tac marines have very viable and even good ways to use them. And frankly (at least to me) means they’re not going anywhere anytime soon. GW wouldn’t go through this much trouble to make sure they’re both pretty well balanced and each have their place if they were going to get phased out in the next few years. Just doesn’t make sense.
@Daniel Drew I'm straight up saying that GW will do whatever they think makes the most money. Sometimes that ends up being what makes logical sense for the consumer. Sometimes it means fucking over the consumer (see: the outrageous turnover and price of codexes, terrible overpriced paint products etc). You can act like a smarmy moist towelette all you want, but that's the world we live in.
They aren't going to phase out Firstborn. Think of it like this. They've been able to sell insane numbers of Primaris Space Marines since they first came out. They've been slowly creating Primaris equivalents for basically everything the Firstborn have. We're now at a point where we're waiting on a few models to come out, but for the most part there's a Firstborn and Primaris unit for every purpose on the battlefield. Do we honestly believe that GW is just going to shrug their shoulders and end the gravy train there? Or are they going to take a finished Primaris line as an excuse to revisit the Firstborn, sculpt them up to modern standards and set themselves up for another several years worth of raking in cash selling Space Marines? You decide.
@@jackrogers5712 They might do some special models for the Firstborn but I dont think we will see anymore. You have to keep in mind that there needs to be enough space for all their products in their stores. So its more likely that all Firstborn products will be "made to order" and maybe they do another limited boxed set.
The scale of primaris models is what marines always should have been, given the fiction. The primaris 'lore' seems like some weird interstitial crossover to justify scaling up marine models without making the old models even more misaligned with the fiction.
@@timiddrake me too. I honestly have no true issue with primaris marines as long as I can still use my favorite looking models without them becoming useless on the battlefield because of primaris. Primaris look cool too but I adore the firstborn
@@timiddrake i'm pretty new to warhammer and i agree with you, primaris helmets dont look great. any spare firstborn helmets i save to put on primaris models to de-uglyfy them.
My Chapter has defensive Chapter traits, so durability is my thing, and i just love my tacticals, not giving them away any time soon! i have intercessors and other primaris, but as long as i can i am gonna keep on playing them tacticals, using the split ability to let the heavy weapon and 4 guys on objectives, moving forward and firing away with the combi plasma and plasma gun! i use rhinos for transporting at least one squad and razorbacks for hqs with a company veterans squad, all in all i really like the razorback option because it only has one less wound points than the pred and with twin las option can pack a heavy punch for their points :) thanks again for the vid, i was happy to have the statistic values in front of me.
I run 2 5-man tactical squads each with a plasma gun and combi-plasma inside a Rhino with 2 storm bolters. It makes for a good, mobile, objective grabbing Distraction Carnifex for relatively cheap as most opponents will actually see them as a threat due to the volume of plasma they can pump out at close range.
I think its worth taking into account tactical squads versatility. Intercessors are probably a better choice as a basic choice but you can trick tacticals out with special/combi weapons and have a 5 man squad packing double plasma/flamer/melta which really changes them up.
Just had a local tournament yesterday. I had 2 pods with 10-10 tacical marines in them. Won 2/3 times. Dropping 40 wounds of obsec modells into or just near enemy terrytory near objectives is pretty effective (tho I admit a bit costly). I also choose Engage at al fronts and eighter the pods or the marines were in the right table qourters to gain points from turn one. I also command squaded one of them and choose Deploy Sceambles. The 5 men squad just eighter dropped in the enemy deploy and did the hardest part turn 1 or some of the squads just walked in turn 2 and did the action than. Maybe I had a bit of luck here and there but they worked pretty good for me.
If you equip the sarge with a storm shield their point for point durability becomes a lot more tasty If you grab greyhunters with a wolf guard in terminator armor and a shield it becomes hilarious.
Nevermind the heavy bolter. Redo your comparison with a grav cannon. Same price, basically designed to destroy marines. Granted, it's likely to go up in price at some future date.
Grey hunters (SW tacs) can take Astartes chainswords in addition to any other weapons for 1 point each, though they can't take heavy weapons (can still take special weapons), also get the wolf banner to reroll charges for 10pts. So I'm probably going to take some of them for advancing, and using Intercessors to hold back.
As a salamanders player, the far greater array of weapons you can put on tactical marines makes them a much better choice in my opinion. But for other armies, intercessors are certainly better
The two ways to use tactial marines in my opinion are close and mid range fire support/flank guards. For close support you go with combi-melta + chainsword and meltagun and maybe a power sword/fist on the Sargent. That squad follows your intercessors around taking objectives and deals with hard targets like monsters and vehicles that they struggle with. If they can get within 6" of lets say, a Redemptor Dreadnought they can deal on average 5.5 wounds with their meltas and bolters. However they have to potential to deal 12/16 damage with those meltas and in tactical doctrine the Redemptor doesn't get a save from them either. Furthermore the melta bomb stratagem lets them finish it off in melee if need be, one shot to deal 2d3 mortals for 1 CP is pretty nice. Yes you can take eradicators to do that job too, and yes they are much better at it but just like aggressors they will get nerfed into the ground, and if you're tight on points the tactical squad can do it for 110pt. Also if an army is a horde army with minimal hard targets the tactical at least have their bolters to help out, that's a point in there favor. The second way to field them is a storm bolter/chain sword + heavy weapon squad, positioned not to hold a back field objective but hold the flank leading up to it while providing fire support and dyeing deep strikes. The winner for damage output and points efficiency for this role is the Grav Cannon (30" Heavy 4 STR 5 AP -3 D 1/2) it murders marines and deals very good chip damage versus vehicles. It is also extremely versatile capable of filling both the close and long range fire support role. The heavy bolter is a nice alternative because it has access to hell fire shells. The las cannon is good for anti tank, nothing special really with it. The missile launcher is perhaps the most versatile but pays for that versatility with slightly weaker profiles on it's firing modes than dedicated weapons, its good versus hordes and light vehicles and comes in the box. I think that all of the Troops for marines are quite viable in this edition, each filling a different role which is pretty nice. The only thing I'd like to see for tactical is some of their special weapons getting a points drop. 10 point Gravguns and Combi-Grav is just silly considering how hard they are to use, and the grav cannon is sitting right there dealing their full rapid fire output for 10 points. That said the grav cannon should probably be 15 points and the plasma cannon should be 10, because it's hot trash.
I know GW want to sell more of their new primaris models, but I would have liked to have seen more differentiating between the firstborn and the primaris. Like having the firstborn having special rules and stratagems to showcase their greater skill, knowledge and experience whereas the primaris are more physically capable and resilient.
they do have rules that reflect that. it's the stratagems they have access too and also they have more listbuilding options...not only in wargear, but in how they interact with other units
I always preferred firstborn over primaris, so seeing firstborn getting some nice buffs makes me really happy. I have heard many people mentioning having sternguard vets in a drop pod. Can you make a video about that tactic?
Personally I think the transport area should have gone to the tacs because the fact that they have more options that are cheaper points and money wise and they are more viable then the impulser which is a razorback with less gun and only holding six primaris marines
@@abelbabel8484 yea honestly a land raider is a glass cannon if you use it right you can do a fuck ton of damage while transporting something like terminators but if your not careful it'll just torn apart and then there 400 points of your army
Tactical Marines have one big advantage you seem to be underplaying is the versatility they bring their basic weapon isn't as good but it's good enough they make up for it by being able to hit way above their weight class fairly reliably put three squads of 5 down with lascannons or missile launchers and watch them earn more points than three intercessor squads just by their ability to hit at anything and put some kind of dent into it vs the invercessors who if there isn't infantry around they aren't doing much
Painting 10 Salamanders Tactical marines. Doing 1 squad with combi-flamer and melta, other squad with combi-melta and flamer. (based on box. First loadout costs 5 points more, but combi flamer has the unique advantage of being able to fire bolter without flamer being affected). I feel like this is pretty competitive with intercessors, and the melta shot in each squad (with the salamanders reroll if I need it) gives it some bite against big stuff that the intercessors don't have.
If objective camping in your deployment zone take first born with a long range heavy weapon. 2-3 hidden las cannons can be pain for your opponent to remove. If pushing up the board take either intercessors with auto bolt rifles or assault intercessors in an Impulsor. I like that now both primaris and first born have a place in a competitive list. The only space marine heavy support that seems worthwhile are the eradicators.
My main focus is just to have fun with the game so I'm sorta happy to go with a few units that aren't as competitive as others and so a Tac squad or two mixed with Intercessors as my shooty infantry core feels right to me.
Talking about core units, how is it with Deathwatch Veterans? They only cost 20 points (with Astartes Chainsword), like Interecessors. But are better in all ways. 3 Melee attacks, better Weapon Options and thanks to SIA (Special Issue Ammunition) their Boltguns are also better than the Boltrifle. Is there something that I missed?
No. Veterans are really, really freaking good. Intercessors have the advantage of being Primaris so they get to access stratagems like Transhuman Physiology, but Veterans have far superior weapon options. The Deathwatch Boltgun is better than the vanilla bolt rifle because kraken bolts bring its stats up to be the same as the bolt rifle's, except you also have the options for ignoring cover, +1 to wound or +1 damage instead. The biggest advantage Intercessors have over Veterans is when you form Kill Teams you can take Outriders with your Intercessors and Outriders are one of the better units Space Marines have. But if you're only comparing the Deathwatch Veteran to the Intercessor, I think the Veteran wins that 1:1 comparison.
@@jackrogers5712 Considering you can give DW Bikers power weapons and still be 12 points cheaper per model, I'm not even sure the Outriders are a massive selling point for the Intercessor kill teams. I'm not saying the Bikers outperform Outriders, but 12 points saved (60 points if you were to take five of each) is a lot of extra budget to spend on your Vets to match what you'd be paying to field that 5 man Outrider squad. Like 4 stormshields, 3 combi-meltas/plasmas/gravs, and a Frag Canon or 2 combi-flamers extra, as an example.
@@uummmnocoolnames outriders do a shit ton of attacks more though. If you give your bikers power swords than those outriders will have FOUR more attacks per model on the charge and with ap -1 that will put them ahead in a lot of cases(2 base(3 for the sarge)+1 for chainsword +1 for shock assault and +2 for devastating charge which means 6 for normals and 7 for the sarge)(which is also another shift towards outriders is that getting -1 ap in combat doctrine puts them MUCH closer in output to a power sword where the jump from -3 tp -4 is not nearly as meaningful). I don't know if bikers can use special ammunition though but even if they can I am still sure that Outriders are the competitive choice here.(Outriders also have a wound more which is a big thing when it is combined with t5)
@@sarcasticlittleass Like I said, Bikers don't outperform Outriders, although DW Veteran Bikers get 2 attacks base, so 3 less attacks on the charge, not 4, even with power weapons. I wouldn't bother with power swords, but give them axes or mauls and you're looking at 3 S6 or S7 attacks per model on the charge, with their respective AP-2 and -1 bumping to AP-3 and-2 in the assault combat doctrine, which DW can shift into at any time. Still, maybe not as good as 30 S4 AP-1 attacks out of 5 Outriders, but respectable, and again, 60 points cheaper. For DW, I think it's better use of points to take the smaller squads of Outriders as fast attack choices, rather than to pay to bring 5 Intercessors just to unlock 5 Outriders (325 points in total). Whatever damage output you lose by taking 5 Bikers in a kill team over 5 Outriders is more than made up for by the requisite 5 Vets and all the toys they can bring to fill that point gap.
My meta is marines and I personally love grav cannons on tac marines. Many times has it dropped 3 intercessors with a good role. Also same cost as heavy bolter anyone else do this?
Im a RG player and I make a lot of use of Stormravens -as a heavily rmed delivery system for vanguard veterans until the Primaris can sort out some affordable (both in ash and points) version of the Stormraven I'll be sticking with what I have but it would be nice to aable to fly a stack of heavy intercessors and Invictas right on top of the enemy
Having mostly come into 40K (outside of video games) in the last year, I will say that the physical scale of Firstborn guys makes them look too silly for me to want to use in an army. They look like children in physical stature and in proportion of models compared to Primaris; legs and arms too short, heads and shoulderpads too big. Primaris models seem a lot more appropriately sized for (trans)humans.
Something about those scowling helmets and how they hold their guns make them look so much more menacing though. Like they are pissed off and always on edge. They look like they are either tracking a target or are moving onto the next kill. The Primaris overall looks better, but they their posture are more relaxed and less angry, looking more like peacekeepers than perpetually angry crack troops.
I’m in the same boat. Having started with indomitus, I can’t feel right having both firstborn and primaries marines in the same army. Tho I don’t mind the look of firstborn, side by side, they look very wonky compared to primaris
Primaris get a lot of flak online but they do just look better. I prefer the old helmet style but other than that, mini marines just look silly outside of Horus Heresy. Still love Terminators though, they're badass.
Honestly if gw had just made primaris the new armour pattern going forward it would have been fantastic especially with new units like intercessors, but having them be the oldmarine replacement and new and better in so many ways feels really......shark jumpy fictionwise and predatory as a sales tactic. They do look cool though.
I'm taking both in my Blood Angels batallion. I'll use the tacs for backfield guarding and the intercessors to March up the midfield and laying down fire. The tacs are there in case something gets through, God forbid some sort of vehicle. The tacs have a lascannon and meltagun
Would Grav Canons and Plasma Canons also be viable as heavy weapons for the new tac squad profile? Also are special weapons not really worth the points anymore?
Plasma cannons are just okay, but Grav cannons are amazing - Heavy 4, 30" range, S5, AP-3, D1(D2 against 3+ save) makes it a perfect Marine-killer. And a Tactical Squad with a grav-cannon is the same points cost as a bare-bones Intercessor squad.
I'm sticking with the first born. Not interested in collecting primaris. For me I look at the bolters as ablative wounds for my heavy/special/sergeant. 8th edition saw me complete my 2nd Company from the small collection I had back in 5th/6th. Hopefully 9th will see me either complete the 1st or begin the 3rd company.
For the phasing out: - Eldars - imperial guards - dark eldars - Tyranids They have VERY old models. I would worry about the first born if they upgrade these armies in the future with new base troopers.
I would expect Eldar in 10th actually. The story is kinda shipped around them as a secondary since Guilliman, and they have some of the oldest lines. Unless surprise Tyranids or some Chaos whatever come outta nowhere. Actually a Eldar/IG box would be my dream 10th box. With these last additions I can't see any new Primaris that wouldn't step on the toes of other Primaris units now. So maybe it's time for a back off like the Sigmarines got.
I find tactical squads better mostly then intercessors myself. Simply cause you can get 1 heavy/special weapon per 5 members meaning you can have your heavy weapons spaced out a lot more then a devastator squad would manage. Its easy to mow down 4 heavy weapons all standing beside each other its not so easy when theirs 1 standing in a group of 5 on one side of the board and the same on the opposite side of the board then a one in the middle. I dont like putting my eggs all in 1 basket.
Tactical marines are probably the best option for me and my dark angels chapter, they have flexibility and they would be super durable with either a rhino or a razorback backing them up while my deathwing or ravenwing deal the majority of the damage.
Slap 10 in a rhino and park it on objective, first the opponent has to chew through the rhino and then take the objective from the marines. Takes pressure of your ravenwing setting up the Deathwing drop, or secures you an objective - or if the opponent splits forces wrong, both. Also I'm pretty damn confident Weapons of the Dark Age is gonna be back with the DA codex, it's too iconic to get deleted like that.
i think this was the point of putting marines first born to 2 wounds it made them directly comparable to primaris and is one more step to them going to legends
in the enemies turn they should be able to. But no one who knows would leave their troops in intervention range unless they are stronger than the wolves in which case they would charge them anyway or if both not apply then my guess is that they would be shot since that situation sounds like they are near the enemy and it is probably on an objective. But parking your army on objectives as SW player so that they can heroicly intervene is probably the right call against most armies since SW are tough in close combat and just parking a naked 10 man Guardsmen Squad near them, to steal an objective, certainly won't work anymore.
What about vs stern guard? I know stern guard get more options, but the bolters are still D1. Also they aren’t as tanky and intercessors even with higher points.
For the sternguard the combi weapons are very interesting to put in a drop pod imo Having 10 flamers auto 60 times turn 1 is sure gonna turn a few heads. Or turn 2 for that juicy +to wound. (Salamanders)
This is the deathwatch arguement vets or primeris, I say vets at mo vets have 2 wounds can take a stalker pattern bolt gun heavy 2 -1ap and SIA and can take any melee weopon. 4 heavy weopons. It's a no brainer for me pre book in hand.
oldskool player here who stopped collecting in 2016. it seems back in the day even firstborn were kinda large compared to the vehicles (couldnt fit 10 in a rhino lol). now with primaris dont they make everything else look even smaller? like put a primaris next to a terminator. they'd have to introduce primaris terminators. and primaris vehicles. lol
For me, it just comes down to looks, although the stronger melee profile is also a nice plus. I'd play Primaris even if they were significantly worse than Firstborn. Primaris are what I always wanted growing up playing this hobby - "truescale" marines that felt closer to the power level they have in the lore.
I disagree. I ran the math for a unit of 5, and definitely a unit of 5 tactical marines with a grav cannon (100pts) will win over a unit of 5 Primaris (100pts). The damage outcome from that 1 grav cannon alone can outperform the Primaris x5. And then, you get to keep your grav cannon even if you havec 4 guys killed, and you only got 1 bolt rifle left from the Primaris if you have 4 guys killed in the Primaris squad. Definitely Tactical Marine of 5 member squad with heavy weapon wins. The only losing point is, they are old models and face future phase out .....
To me, Intercessors Just seem so boring, both in looks and options. I want to be able to give my troops a plasma gun, grav pistol and a power fist or a heavy bolter, power sword and plasma pistol. I really want to be able to tell the difference between my troops instead of having a buch of exactly the same guys with a different purity seal.
You can now. Intercessor Sergeants can do all of the Plasma Pistol + Power Fist shenanigans of the Firstborn. You lose the Heavy Weapon and Special Weapon but then again EVERY body in the Intercessor squad gets an upgraded Main Weapon that helps largely mitigate the loss of the Special Weapon and HB/ML. Nothing an Intercessor does makes up for the loss of a Lascannon. But there are better ways of getting Heavy Weapons into the list.
@@clamus68 i mean more like that those options aren't included in the kit itself. I don't want to buy the Ultramarines or Imperial Fists upgrade kit just so i can have a guy with a power fist or power sword.
I like the sculpts for intercessors. I think they just plain look better than normal tac marines. They are also too scale and that was one of the main reasons they were made in the first place.
I know its not the point of your channel but i cant get over how naff the old Marine models look compared to the scale of the primaris.. so.. yeah.. that makes my decision
If you like cool, well designed interesting badasses, get OG marines. If you like boring, bland marketing shite designed purely for profit, get primaris.
I can't wait for the day first born go to legends. Intercessors in all three flavours edge out tac marines every single time. Single lascannon sounds nice on paper but is far from reliable. Compared to heavy intercessors on an objective and there's just no question on the efficiency of the unis.
@@Son0fAggression ah yeah, the S4 ap0 punch... so powerful! Oh wait, Grey Hunters old marines get the same attacks for the free chainswords and BloodClaws get even more cuz berserker charge. If you think Primaris are better cuz 1 more attack when they want to stay away from melee, you don't play much? Primaris assault intercessors are another thing entirely and they should be compared to assault marines, which are still better because Jump pack.
@@punkneverdie5590 wow, you guys hella salty that your ugly ass old plastic got replaced. And the rules don't matter in a game like this if the models look like crap comparatively.
@@Son0fAggression So your first point was shit and you shifted your argument on looks. I love my old marines anyway, Primaris are bland as shit form me. Keep drinking all the diarrhea GW is giving you tho.
My army is like 90% Firstborn, and boy is it seeing a joyous revival. My Tac Squads, Attack Bikes, and Command Squad are all looking particularly triumphant in this return
It’s nice being able to kit out a command squad with free elite slots. I hope guard get platoons back.
@@memeticmissionary7120 if the SM codex is any indicator it will!
the command squad rule is great and i’m happy to see something like the “command squad unit” to return. though it is weird that primaris don’t get it.
@@James80312 Lore reasons, most likely. It's only been a couple hundred years since the Primaris arrived, so in mixed Chapters the majority of the leadership is still Firstborn. Even in Chapters that have taken heavy losses among their leadership, Firstborn just have more combat and command experience when it comes time to promote replacements.
They still look like shit tho
Jk don’t kill me please
I'm just happy my Mark III marines finnaly seem tough
>primaris
>less likely to be phased out
never underestimate GW, my friend.
>Small Glurmo #1: But, Your Highness, she's a commoner. Her Slurm will taste foul.
Slurm Queen: Yes! Which is why we'll market it as New Slurm. Then, when everyone hates it, we'll bring back Slurm Classic, and make billions!
Bro 😂😂😂
/clap
i think ur probably right. this will happen
I think you overestimate how much people dislike primaris models
Like with Warhammer: The Old World? :)
I'm sticking with "1st born" mostly cause (A) My whole army is them from 5th/6th edition & (B) I have not the time, desire or money to get/paint new models other than the few I have since returning for late 8th - early 9th. If they totally removed the "1st born" in 10th I'd probably just have to quit & only play 9th forever with friends (or whatever armies they had in future editions)
For those wondering "Then why or what models did u buy a few months ago?" I got:
1 3-man of Centurions cause I wanted a "pure Dakka squad" cause I didn't have that before
1 Space wolves Venerable Dreadnought, cause that's all my local shop had for Dreadnought's at the time, That became a Grey Knight Dreadnought
1 5-man Deathwatch Kill Team & 1 5-man Grey Knight Paladin's, that when mixed with 5 old die-cast Grey Knights & 1 old die-cast Grey Knight Terminator I had collecting dust (long story), became: 1 10-man Strike squad, 1 3-man Paladin squad, 1 Terminator Apothecary, 1 Brother Captain & 1 "Custom made stand-in" Kaldor Drago... yah I just said "I'm gona build custom version of that guy one day" so I did
oh & a (C) The fluff I made for my army back then makes having "Smaller" Space Marines okay to me
We have a split at the club I attend mostly the older guys have 1st born and the younger members have gone with primaris. Previously the games between them were just slightly in favour of the 1st born mainly due to the guys running the armies having played for a lot longer and got very slick forces they had used for a long time and many of the 1st born losses cold be put down to just a few bad rolls here and there. Now the 1st born have had a boost unless some of the experienced players start to roll out more primaris I can see them winning more games. This isn't a bad thing as it is encouraging some of the newer guys to look at armies other than SM my nids are getting a bit tired of facing off against primaris week after week after week.
In our local scene, across multiple FLGS. Firstborns are phased out. Even those that started in earlier editions like 2nd ed are just fielding only Primaris. I am the only one stubbornly clinging on to firstborns - painting / playing them.
Just play Grimdark Future. Free rules, balanced and you don't have to stay on the miniatures treadmill.
Tacticals have one major advantage in being able to easily increase the number of special and heavy weapons in your army, without placing everything in one or two expensive squads that could be easily targeted and picked off by the enemy, or you can use them to simply further increase the number of various weapons without sacrificing basic anti-infantry prowess that much.
4 squads of tacticals, each with a lascannon are harder to decimate in a single turn than a devastator squad or a single predator - it also frees up your heavy support slot for something more fancy.
Basically - good old tactical marines can be used to free up the slots for something more unique, or act as "hole plugging" unit - depending on loadout, they can supply a ranged firepower against every single type of opponent, and they will perform reasonably well - without the need to over-specialise like most Primaris units.
Intercessors are "versatile" in the same sense as Dire Avengers - only by the virtue of more specialised units existing.
That said - Primaris tend to be more effective than first-born Marines in their specialised roles... Like Eldar... Yeah... Primaris are basically Eldar that substitute unit toughness and wounds for model count...
Exactly my thought. Threat saturation is a thing. Whilst Interecessors have more shots they falter vs hard targets. Tacticals even have (the barely mentioned here) 1 points average 5MW Melta Bomb Strat too which makes it quite dangerous to bring any vehicle within their move+charge range.
Tacks also get the excellent 'Melta bomb' strat which seems under-rated.
They become Tankbustaz lol
I love that opportunity to repaint my older models. They are my oldest dudes, they were just laying around since the 6th edition, paint removed and taken apart, and I haven't had a reason to invest my time in them, but now they are quite good. And I just finished painting dudes that are absolute must, so I basically don't have any reason to procrastinate now.
Finally my old tacticals are cool again.
they were never not cool.
@@melon_cat6964 they were tacticool
They lost more in this update actually. Lost Transhuman, Honor the Chapter but gain +1 wounds and went up 3 points.
They went up 3 points after previously going up 3 points. It's a little ridiculous that having 1 less attack and no stratagems .akes them only 2 points cheaper than Primaris.
And Assault Marines are the same price despite how bad they are.
@@svenvictory Exactly people who think this is a buff have no idea what the current meta is...
The single biggest reason why I would bring mini-marines for troops+transports? Rhino's and razorbacks cost a hell of a lot less than the disgusting price that Impulsors go for.
I mean, the customizability on top is really nice too. That heavy/special/combi can really make the difference, especially when averages go out the window.
I couldn't agree more, especially about the price difference; I picked up a NIB Tactical Squad & Razorback for almost the same as 1 Impulsor. I also enjoy how customizable Firstborn are with the numerous ranges of bits.
@@tressil3607 I've been painting more mini marines lately, vanguards, special tacticals and termies.
However with the Blood Angels patrol box that just got released I'm getting my first impulsor. Just so happens I can use it all.
firstborn, i love em. most of my army is firstborn. I think they look better aside from height. but primaris are fine too.
Me too, I've bought 6 dozen pairs of Death Watch and Custodes legs. And the Heroes models are a better scale too, good for conversions.
now that scouts are elite choices I think we'll start seeing more tactical squads for filling that cheap bolter role.
I enjoy using tactical squads with my dark angels even before the new codex drop mainly because they CAN take a heavy or special weapon
At least the two-wound profile means Vanguard Veterans are basically Intercessors with jump packs and awesome weapon options.
When taking the whole picture into account (special and heavies as well as transports), tactical marines probably aren’t going to be in tournament winning lists or anything. But considering how small a part of the 40k community that represents it’s not an overall bad thing.
It DOES mean the huge number of people who are sitting on big lists or collections of Tac marines have very viable and even good ways to use them. And frankly (at least to me) means they’re not going anywhere anytime soon.
GW wouldn’t go through this much trouble to make sure they’re both pretty well balanced and each have their place if they were going to get phased out in the next few years. Just doesn’t make sense.
If you think that GW's decision making follows any kind of logic for the consumer, then your faith is sorely misplaced.
@Daniel Drew I'm straight up saying that GW will do whatever they think makes the most money. Sometimes that ends up being what makes logical sense for the consumer. Sometimes it means fucking over the consumer (see: the outrageous turnover and price of codexes, terrible overpriced paint products etc).
You can act like a smarmy moist towelette all you want, but that's the world we live in.
They aren't going to phase out Firstborn. Think of it like this. They've been able to sell insane numbers of Primaris Space Marines since they first came out. They've been slowly creating Primaris equivalents for basically everything the Firstborn have. We're now at a point where we're waiting on a few models to come out, but for the most part there's a Firstborn and Primaris unit for every purpose on the battlefield. Do we honestly believe that GW is just going to shrug their shoulders and end the gravy train there? Or are they going to take a finished Primaris line as an excuse to revisit the Firstborn, sculpt them up to modern standards and set themselves up for another several years worth of raking in cash selling Space Marines? You decide.
@@jackrogers5712 They might do some special models for the Firstborn but I dont think we will see anymore. You have to keep in mind that there needs to be enough space for all their products in their stores. So its more likely that all Firstborn products will be "made to order" and maybe they do another limited boxed set.
Don't underestimate the advantage of bringing a Multi Melta in a compulsory troop choice.
I'll be honest with you I just like the Primaris models.
The scale of primaris models is what marines always should have been, given the fiction. The primaris 'lore' seems like some weird interstitial crossover to justify scaling up marine models without making the old models even more misaligned with the fiction.
I don't play marines but prefer the helmet of the the firstborns by far.
@@timiddrake me too. I honestly have no true issue with primaris marines as long as I can still use my favorite looking models without them becoming useless on the battlefield because of primaris. Primaris look cool too but I adore the firstborn
@@timiddrake i'm pretty new to warhammer and i agree with you, primaris helmets dont look great. any spare firstborn helmets i save to put on primaris models to de-uglyfy them.
My Chapter has defensive Chapter traits, so durability is my thing, and i just love my tacticals, not giving them away any time soon! i have intercessors and other primaris, but as long as i can i am gonna keep on playing them tacticals, using the split ability to let the heavy weapon and 4 guys on objectives, moving forward and firing away with the combi plasma and plasma gun! i use rhinos for transporting at least one squad and razorbacks for hqs with a company veterans squad, all in all i really like the razorback option because it only has one less wound points than the pred and with twin las option can pack a heavy punch for their points :)
thanks again for the vid, i was happy to have the statistic values in front of me.
Did a game with 60 tacs in a 2k list and my opponent was shocked how much that extra wound allowed IH chapter tactics to keep them alive.
I run 2 5-man tactical squads each with a plasma gun and combi-plasma inside a Rhino with 2 storm bolters. It makes for a good, mobile, objective grabbing Distraction Carnifex for relatively cheap as most opponents will actually see them as a threat due to the volume of plasma they can pump out at close range.
I think its worth taking into account tactical squads versatility. Intercessors are probably a better choice as a basic choice but you can trick tacticals out with special/combi weapons and have a 5 man squad packing double plasma/flamer/melta which really changes them up.
Just had a local tournament yesterday. I had 2 pods with 10-10 tacical marines in them. Won 2/3 times. Dropping 40 wounds of obsec modells into or just near enemy terrytory near objectives is pretty effective (tho I admit a bit costly). I also choose Engage at al fronts and eighter the pods or the marines were in the right table qourters to gain points from turn one. I also command squaded one of them and choose Deploy Sceambles. The 5 men squad just eighter dropped in the enemy deploy and did the hardest part turn 1 or some of the squads just walked in turn 2 and did the action than. Maybe I had a bit of luck here and there but they worked pretty good for me.
Actually happily surprised how generous they've been to the firstborn marines here.
If you equip the sarge with a storm shield their point for point durability becomes a lot more tasty
If you grab greyhunters with a wolf guard in terminator armor and a shield it becomes hilarious.
Nevermind the heavy bolter. Redo your comparison with a grav cannon. Same price, basically designed to destroy marines. Granted, it's likely to go up in price at some future date.
Great video. I've been curious how this shakes out and you've done a great job of clearing it up.
I think the extra utility against vehicles edges tacs out over intercessors for me.
Plus easier to build lists with due to cost, and more models for objectives.
The eternal question .... good comparaison
Grey hunters (SW tacs) can take Astartes chainswords in addition to any other weapons for 1 point each, though they can't take heavy weapons (can still take special weapons), also get the wolf banner to reroll charges for 10pts. So I'm probably going to take some of them for advancing, and using Intercessors to hold back.
Different tools for different tasks. It's cool that both are viable
As a salamanders player, the far greater array of weapons you can put on tactical marines makes them a much better choice in my opinion. But for other armies, intercessors are certainly better
The two ways to use tactial marines in my opinion are close and mid range fire support/flank guards.
For close support you go with combi-melta + chainsword and meltagun and maybe a power sword/fist on the Sargent. That squad follows your intercessors around taking objectives and deals with hard targets like monsters and vehicles that they struggle with. If they can get within 6" of lets say, a Redemptor Dreadnought they can deal on average 5.5 wounds with their meltas and bolters. However they have to potential to deal 12/16 damage with those meltas and in tactical doctrine the Redemptor doesn't get a save from them either. Furthermore the melta bomb stratagem lets them finish it off in melee if need be, one shot to deal 2d3 mortals for 1 CP is pretty nice.
Yes you can take eradicators to do that job too, and yes they are much better at it but just like aggressors they will get nerfed into the ground, and if you're tight on points the tactical squad can do it for 110pt. Also if an army is a horde army with minimal hard targets the tactical at least have their bolters to help out, that's a point in there favor.
The second way to field them is a storm bolter/chain sword + heavy weapon squad, positioned not to hold a back field objective but hold the flank leading up to it while providing fire support and dyeing deep strikes. The winner for damage output and points efficiency for this role is the Grav Cannon (30" Heavy 4 STR 5 AP -3 D 1/2) it murders marines and deals very good chip damage versus vehicles. It is also extremely versatile capable of filling both the close and long range fire support role. The heavy bolter is a nice alternative because it has access to hell fire shells. The las cannon is good for anti tank, nothing special really with it. The missile launcher is perhaps the most versatile but pays for that versatility with slightly weaker profiles on it's firing modes than dedicated weapons, its good versus hordes and light vehicles and comes in the box.
I think that all of the Troops for marines are quite viable in this edition, each filling a different role which is pretty nice. The only thing I'd like to see for tactical is some of their special weapons getting a points drop. 10 point Gravguns and Combi-Grav is just silly considering how hard they are to use, and the grav cannon is sitting right there dealing their full rapid fire output for 10 points. That said the grav cannon should probably be 15 points and the plasma cannon should be 10, because it's hot trash.
Black Templar Crusader squads ftw!
Uploaded 14 seconds ago.... new record for me
Nice.
@@kokevinny hhhhhh
Hhhhhhh
I know GW want to sell more of their new primaris models, but I would have liked to have seen more differentiating between the firstborn and the primaris. Like having the firstborn having special rules and stratagems to showcase their greater skill, knowledge and experience whereas the primaris are more physically capable and resilient.
they do have rules that reflect that. it's the stratagems they have access too and also they have more listbuilding options...not only in wargear, but in how they interact with other units
@@gk7003 Sweet, thanks for the info.
Yeah. Tactical, Devastator, and Assault squads should be able to freely choose their active doctrines
I always preferred firstborn over primaris, so seeing firstborn getting some nice buffs makes me really happy. I have heard many people mentioning having sternguard vets in a drop pod. Can you make a video about that tactic?
Are plasma cannons any good for firstborn? I am giving my two squads cannons in my dark angels list and use them to keep my homefield objectives safe.
Personally I think the transport area should have gone to the tacs because the fact that they have more options that are cheaper points and money wise and they are more viable then the impulser which is a razorback with less gun and only holding six primaris marines
Also you can put sixteen into a Land Raider Crusader. Probably not competitive, but you can probably blindside someone with that completely.
@@abelbabel8484 yea honestly a land raider is a glass cannon if you use it right you can do a fuck ton of damage while transporting something like terminators but if your not careful it'll just torn apart and then there 400 points of your army
@@bigyboy8018 Imagine it putting 15 marines plus ancient on objective turn 1.
That's 30 models with obsec. Could be game right then and there.
I would like to see the varying terminators compared in this way, please and thank you.
Honestly, I don't mind tactical squads coming back. They are actually pretty good for screening now, with the extra wound.
Tactical Marines have one big advantage you seem to be underplaying is the versatility they bring their basic weapon isn't as good but it's good enough they make up for it by being able to hit way above their weight class fairly reliably put three squads of 5 down with lascannons or missile launchers and watch them earn more points than three intercessor squads just by their ability to hit at anything and put some kind of dent into it vs the invercessors who if there isn't infantry around they aren't doing much
Painting 10 Salamanders Tactical marines.
Doing 1 squad with combi-flamer and melta, other squad with combi-melta and flamer. (based on box. First loadout costs 5 points more, but combi flamer has the unique advantage of being able to fire bolter without flamer being affected).
I feel like this is pretty competitive with intercessors, and the melta shot in each squad (with the salamanders reroll if I need it) gives it some bite against big stuff that the intercessors don't have.
So can Tactical Squads still take both a heavy weapon and a special weapon?
They can have one of either in 5 man squads, and one of both in ten man squads
Love the content. You work hard mate!
If objective camping in your deployment zone take first born with a long range heavy weapon. 2-3 hidden las cannons can be pain for your opponent to remove. If pushing up the board take either intercessors with auto bolt rifles or assault intercessors in an Impulsor. I like that now both primaris and first born have a place in a competitive list.
The only space marine heavy support that seems worthwhile are the eradicators.
boltstorm on auto bolters + move shoot is the intercessor bread and butter, I don't think tacs can burst as readily onto an oncoming line
My main focus is just to have fun with the game so I'm sorta happy to go with a few units that aren't as competitive as others and so a Tac squad or two mixed with Intercessors as my shooty infantry core feels right to me.
Talking about core units, how is it with Deathwatch Veterans?
They only cost 20 points (with Astartes Chainsword), like Interecessors. But are better in all ways.
3 Melee attacks, better Weapon Options and thanks to SIA (Special Issue Ammunition) their Boltguns are also better than the Boltrifle.
Is there something that I missed?
No. Veterans are really, really freaking good. Intercessors have the advantage of being Primaris so they get to access stratagems like Transhuman Physiology, but Veterans have far superior weapon options. The Deathwatch Boltgun is better than the vanilla bolt rifle because kraken bolts bring its stats up to be the same as the bolt rifle's, except you also have the options for ignoring cover, +1 to wound or +1 damage instead. The biggest advantage Intercessors have over Veterans is when you form Kill Teams you can take Outriders with your Intercessors and Outriders are one of the better units Space Marines have. But if you're only comparing the Deathwatch Veteran to the Intercessor, I think the Veteran wins that 1:1 comparison.
@@jackrogers5712 Considering you can give DW Bikers power weapons and still be 12 points cheaper per model, I'm not even sure the Outriders are a massive selling point for the Intercessor kill teams. I'm not saying the Bikers outperform Outriders, but 12 points saved (60 points if you were to take five of each) is a lot of extra budget to spend on your Vets to match what you'd be paying to field that 5 man Outrider squad. Like 4 stormshields, 3 combi-meltas/plasmas/gravs, and a Frag Canon or 2 combi-flamers extra, as an example.
@@uummmnocoolnames outriders do a shit ton of attacks more though. If you give your bikers power swords than those outriders will have FOUR more attacks per model on the charge and with ap -1 that will put them ahead in a lot of cases(2 base(3 for the sarge)+1 for chainsword +1 for shock assault and +2 for devastating charge which means 6 for normals and 7 for the sarge)(which is also another shift towards outriders is that getting -1 ap in combat doctrine puts them MUCH closer in output to a power sword where the jump from -3 tp -4 is not nearly as meaningful). I don't know if bikers can use special ammunition though but even if they can I am still sure that Outriders are the competitive choice here.(Outriders also have a wound more which is a big thing when it is combined with t5)
@@sarcasticlittleass Like I said, Bikers don't outperform Outriders, although DW Veteran Bikers get 2 attacks base, so 3 less attacks on the charge, not 4, even with power weapons. I wouldn't bother with power swords, but give them axes or mauls and you're looking at 3 S6 or S7 attacks per model on the charge, with their respective AP-2 and -1 bumping to AP-3 and-2 in the assault combat doctrine, which DW can shift into at any time. Still, maybe not as good as 30 S4 AP-1 attacks out of 5 Outriders, but respectable, and again, 60 points cheaper.
For DW, I think it's better use of points to take the smaller squads of Outriders as fast attack choices, rather than to pay to bring 5 Intercessors just to unlock 5 Outriders (325 points in total). Whatever damage output you lose by taking 5 Bikers in a kill team over 5 Outriders is more than made up for by the requisite 5 Vets and all the toys they can bring to fill that point gap.
My meta is marines and I personally love grav cannons on tac marines. Many times has it dropped 3 intercessors with a good role. Also same cost as heavy bolter anyone else do this?
Im a RG player and I make a lot of use of Stormravens -as a heavily rmed delivery system for vanguard veterans until the Primaris can sort out some affordable (both in ash and points) version of the Stormraven I'll be sticking with what I have but it would be nice to aable to fly a stack of heavy intercessors and Invictas right on top of the enemy
Having mostly come into 40K (outside of video games) in the last year, I will say that the physical scale of Firstborn guys makes them look too silly for me to want to use in an army. They look like children in physical stature and in proportion of models compared to Primaris; legs and arms too short, heads and shoulderpads too big. Primaris models seem a lot more appropriately sized for (trans)humans.
Something about those scowling helmets and how they hold their guns make them look so much more menacing though. Like they are pissed off and always on edge. They look like they are either tracking a target or are moving onto the next kill.
The Primaris overall looks better, but they their posture are more relaxed and less angry, looking more like peacekeepers than perpetually angry crack troops.
I’m in the same boat. Having started with indomitus, I can’t feel right having both firstborn and primaries marines in the same army. Tho I don’t mind the look of firstborn, side by side, they look very wonky compared to primaris
Primaris get a lot of flak online but they do just look better. I prefer the old helmet style but other than that, mini marines just look silly outside of Horus Heresy.
Still love Terminators though, they're badass.
Honestly if gw had just made primaris the new armour pattern going forward it would have been fantastic especially with new units like intercessors, but having them be the oldmarine replacement and new and better in so many ways feels really......shark jumpy fictionwise and predatory as a sales tactic.
They do look cool though.
Biggest zoomer opinion of 2020
Happy Halloween! 🎃
Plan on using both
I'm taking both in my Blood Angels batallion. I'll use the tacs for backfield guarding and the intercessors to March up the midfield and laying down fire. The tacs are there in case something gets through, God forbid some sort of vehicle. The tacs have a lascannon and meltagun
Can I have both in my army? I ordered Intercessors and Mark IV tactical marines by accident.
I DONT NEED SLEEP I NEED ANSWERS!
I would like to know how melee firstborn troops like grey hunters or veterans stack up against assault intercessors
Are tactical marine bases smaller than intercessors
Since SIA changed this is a easy answer for me. I wasn't sure at first
Auspex, would you consider a night mode for your videos?
What about aux grenade launchers? They're now extra shots instead of grenades.
i was just thinking about the same thing
Would Grav Canons and Plasma Canons also be viable as heavy weapons for the new tac squad profile? Also are special weapons not really worth the points anymore?
Plasma cannons are just okay, but Grav cannons are amazing - Heavy 4, 30" range, S5, AP-3, D1(D2 against 3+ save) makes it a perfect Marine-killer. And a Tactical Squad with a grav-cannon is the same points cost as a bare-bones Intercessor squad.
I'm sticking with the first born. Not interested in collecting primaris. For me I look at the bolters as ablative wounds for my heavy/special/sergeant.
8th edition saw me complete my 2nd Company from the small collection I had back in 5th/6th. Hopefully 9th will see me either complete the 1st or begin the 3rd company.
Now how do they stack up against the Heavy Intercessors?
For the phasing out:
- Eldars
- imperial guards
- dark eldars
- Tyranids
They have VERY old models. I would worry about the first born if they upgrade these armies in the future with new base troopers.
I would expect Eldar in 10th actually. The story is kinda shipped around them as a secondary since Guilliman, and they have some of the oldest lines. Unless surprise Tyranids or some Chaos whatever come outta nowhere.
Actually a Eldar/IG box would be my dream 10th box. With these last additions I can't see any new Primaris that wouldn't step on the toes of other Primaris units now. So maybe it's time for a back off like the Sigmarines got.
GW is supposed to recast First Born to more modern casts/modesl.... so what was the purpose of Primaris ?
I find tactical squads better mostly then intercessors myself. Simply cause you can get 1 heavy/special weapon per 5 members meaning you can have your heavy weapons spaced out a lot more then a devastator squad would manage. Its easy to mow down 4 heavy weapons all standing beside each other its not so easy when theirs 1 standing in a group of 5 on one side of the board and the same on the opposite side of the board then a one in the middle. I dont like putting my eggs all in 1 basket.
Tactical marines are probably the best option for me and my dark angels chapter, they have flexibility and they would be super durable with either a rhino or a razorback backing them up while my deathwing or ravenwing deal the majority of the damage.
Also plasma cannons plus weapons of the dark age
@@jonniezodiac sounds like weapons of the dark age might no longer exist with this edition
@@greggillespie8259 I would be very sad if that's so
Slap 10 in a rhino and park it on objective, first the opponent has to chew through the rhino and then take the objective from the marines. Takes pressure of your ravenwing setting up the Deathwing drop, or secures you an objective - or if the opponent splits forces wrong, both.
Also I'm pretty damn confident Weapons of the Dark Age is gonna be back with the DA codex, it's too iconic to get deleted like that.
i think this was the point of putting marines first born to 2 wounds it made them directly comparable to primaris and is one more step to them going to legends
So.... if Spacewolf Intersessors are in an Impulsor, that moves up the field and the Intersessors get out.... can they then Heroically Intervene 3”???
in the enemies turn they should be able to. But no one who knows would leave their troops in intervention range unless they are stronger than the wolves in which case they would charge them anyway or if both not apply then my guess is that they would be shot since that situation sounds like they are near the enemy and it is probably on an objective. But parking your army on objectives as SW player so that they can heroicly intervene is probably the right call against most armies since SW are tough in close combat and just parking a naked 10 man Guardsmen Squad near them, to steal an objective, certainly won't work anymore.
What about vs stern guard?
I know stern guard get more options, but the bolters are still D1.
Also they aren’t as tanky and intercessors even with higher points.
For the sternguard the combi weapons are very interesting to put in a drop pod imo
Having 10 flamers auto 60 times turn 1 is sure gonna turn a few heads.
Or turn 2 for that juicy +to wound. (Salamanders)
What about DW Vets vs DW intercessors
This is the deathwatch arguement vets or primeris, I say vets at mo vets have 2 wounds can take a stalker pattern bolt gun heavy 2 -1ap and SIA and can take any melee weopon. 4 heavy weopons. It's a no brainer for me pre book in hand.
Can go in flyers landraiders razorbacks rhinos and droppod.😎
Just what the Space Marines needed: Space Marine Space Marines. - GW, probably
Which are better dark angels veterans or sm veterans?
Primaris. I play White Scars so they aren't the key or focus of my army but Intercessors make perfect objective holders.
oldskool player here who stopped collecting in 2016. it seems back in the day even firstborn were kinda large compared to the vehicles (couldnt fit 10 in a rhino lol). now with primaris dont they make everything else look even smaller? like put a primaris next to a terminator. they'd have to introduce primaris terminators. and primaris vehicles. lol
Original recipe over extra crispy, every time.
For me, it just comes down to looks, although the stronger melee profile is also a nice plus. I'd play Primaris even if they were significantly worse than Firstborn. Primaris are what I always wanted growing up playing this hobby - "truescale" marines that felt closer to the power level they have in the lore.
I disagree. I ran the math for a unit of 5, and definitely a unit of 5 tactical marines with a grav cannon (100pts) will win over a unit of 5 Primaris (100pts). The damage outcome from that 1 grav cannon alone can outperform the Primaris x5. And then, you get to keep your grav cannon even if you havec 4 guys killed, and you only got 1 bolt rifle left from the Primaris if you have 4 guys killed in the Primaris squad.
Definitely Tactical Marine of 5 member squad with heavy weapon wins. The only losing point is, they are old models and face future phase out .....
Yeah, a Grav Cannon is a much better anti-infantry weapon than the Heavy Bolter now. Great for defending your objectives from Primaris.
For Blood Angels, I see a lot of people running auto bolt intercessor squads with powerfist Sergeants.
Always have.
Despite being a melee chapter, I’m still sticking with Tactical Marines
Still think its dumb that impulsors cant transport gravis
Tacticals just because i don't want primaris.
Primaris are sexy sculpts
To me, Intercessors Just seem so boring, both in looks and options. I want to be able to give my troops a plasma gun, grav pistol and a power fist or a heavy bolter, power sword and plasma pistol. I really want to be able to tell the difference between my troops instead of having a buch of exactly the same guys with a different purity seal.
You can now. Intercessor Sergeants can do all of the Plasma Pistol + Power Fist shenanigans of the Firstborn. You lose the Heavy Weapon and Special Weapon but then again EVERY body in the Intercessor squad gets an upgraded Main Weapon that helps largely mitigate the loss of the Special Weapon and HB/ML. Nothing an Intercessor does makes up for the loss of a Lascannon. But there are better ways of getting Heavy Weapons into the list.
@@clamus68 i mean more like that those options aren't included in the kit itself. I don't want to buy the Ultramarines or Imperial Fists upgrade kit just so i can have a guy with a power fist or power sword.
@@HeleentheArcane they are as of this edition. The Intercessors multi part box has a special weapon sprue.
I like the sculpts for intercessors. I think they just plain look better than normal tac marines. They are also too scale and that was one of the main reasons they were made in the first place.
@@clamus68 they do?
I know its not the point of your channel but i cant get over how naff the old Marine models look compared to the scale of the primaris.. so.. yeah.. that makes my decision
So true. I'm tempted to donate my old tacticals and print myself upscaled ones :/
Tiny input, Intercessors aren`t stronger than blood claws with there berserk charge in melee =)
The tactical marines really don't get much in the way of strats
Neither, Assault Intercessors ftw
As a blood angels player I agree
By the blood!
Blood for the blood god.... errrr I mean... chaos bad 👀
@@crudgamers2672 that’s what I thought
@@joshuacouture479 as a crimson fist player i agree... exploding 6’s for the win!!
INLY ONE MARINE THE NORMAL
One minute! so close
Update firstborn!!!!!
They’re the best marines!
I lie TAC's as the filling of my gunline sandwich
So normal Marines are cheap screen or objective campers...
You forgot that Primaris look cooler! :D
Good point except for the fact that they don't.
@@cethapplegate594 Speaking the truth!
Emperors marines all the way. Never giving up my beautiful Tac squads!
If you like cool, well designed interesting badasses, get OG marines.
If you like boring, bland marketing shite designed purely for profit, get primaris.
As a newcomer, Primaris just look cooler. Sorry.
I can't wait for the day first born go to legends. Intercessors in all three flavours edge out tac marines every single time. Single lascannon sounds nice on paper but is far from reliable. Compared to heavy intercessors on an objective and there's just no question on the efficiency of the unis.
Keep waiting.
first
@Daniel Drew noice
you forgot the point that firstborn look absolutely laughable in comparison.
@Daniel Drew you're aware that they exactly the same stats with an advantage in attack right?
@@Son0fAggression ah yeah, the S4 ap0 punch... so powerful! Oh wait, Grey Hunters old marines get the same attacks for the free chainswords and BloodClaws get even more cuz berserker charge. If you think Primaris are better cuz 1 more attack when they want to stay away from melee, you don't play much? Primaris assault intercessors are another thing entirely and they should be compared to assault marines, which are still better because Jump pack.
@@punkneverdie5590 wow, you guys hella salty that your ugly ass old plastic got replaced. And the rules don't matter in a game like this if the models look like crap comparatively.
Lemme guess, you’re the guy who takes leviathan dreadnoughts in an “all Primaris” list?
@@Son0fAggression So your first point was shit and you shifted your argument on looks. I love my old marines anyway, Primaris are bland as shit form me. Keep drinking all the diarrhea GW is giving you tho.
Third