MMO players rely on vertical progression because they’re bad at gaming? Ashes of Creation
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- Опубліковано 8 лют 2025
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Ashes of Creation is an open world MMORPG set in a fantasy environment where you can choose different classes and races to adventure through with your friends. Intrepid Studios is the developer behind the game. They’re technically an indie studio, but their creative director Steven Sharif has a clear vision for his video game: Massively Multiplayer Role Playing Game. He wants to put the massive back in MMO. Exploring dungeons, griding for gear, crafting armor/weapons, learning new spells, and competing in large scale PvP battles. High end PvE such as raids will mainly occur in the open world. Bosses will spawn and roam through the land. Are YOU ready to enter the world of Verra?
You can get my hat at Vlhadus’ merch store!
vlhadus-gaming...
Aweome. Thanks for having me. Was a fun listen
Generally the most excited I am about a YT video is when i see yours come out every week. Thanks dude!
As a souls and fps player that recently got into mmo’s, for the casual gamer, it takes skill in a different way. It’s the skill of knowledge: your class, rotation, strategy, and the world that makes the difference.
The chads will come and dominate these mmo noobs
GW2 and ESO show that you don't need vertical progression to attract players and have a succesful game. Personally, I prefer horizontal progression.
I agree. Although i do feel due to the monetary nature of ESO they tend to make gear that exceeds any sort of horizontal gear. New gear from dungeons are almost always the meta which is more of a vertical progression. I wish all the sets in ESO maintained some sense of usefulness. Instead they nerf functions of older sets to favor new stuff completely destroying entire game play styles. When i quit playing i was running an AOE dot build that wasnt the best but i was competitive and loved the style until they introduced extremely overpowered counters to dots and nerfed virtually every dot in the game when they released the sets.
Inwhich the entire point of doing all of that is simply to get ppl to all buy the next season.
The best MMOs are the ones where Skill AND Gear matter. If gear doesn't matter for PvP, people quickly lose motivation as there is no sense of progression. If skill doesn't matter, it exclusively rewards people who put in the most time. It's a very fine line to walk in terms of balance. Really hope there is a decent amount of skill expression and power progression through items in Ashes.
I agree but there are games like Sea of thieves with no progression that are successful.
"no sense of progression"
maybe for pvp players, but the vast majority of mmo player are pve players and pve has progression regardless of pvp.
@@damnsurfer522 Sea of Thieves is not an RPG or an MMO though.
@@OmniDan26 True, but that‘s why I specifically mentioned PvP. Besides that, Ashes is a PvX game with little to no safezones, which makes PvP omnipresent. This "vast majority" of PvE players will most likely not play Ashes.
@@BRADLIKESPVP maybe not by their definition but it's more of an MMO then some games that claim they are an MMO. I think these names are not clear cut and are strictly used for marketing.
I think it’s true that a lot of video game players -in general- just look toward guides and personalities online to ‘develop’ their taste. Copying a playstyle that wins or cheese’s the hardest.
I love my friends but gosh darn it, when they just talking “my favourite UA-camr says this”, I cry.
All MMO gamers are old which is why they're bad. I'm just the messenger.
🥺
I naturally do better with less and zero program assistance at 45 years old than most of these 20-30 year olds I see in game now. People just gotta take the time to learn their class, and patience is yesterday's news with sooo many.
What’s your excuse then Q?!?😮
says the bard lol
I'm old...challenge accepted !
Not really, MMORPGs are RPGs, part of RPGs is that your gear and build are what makes your character grow stronger, then there's the skill that makes you perform better or worse. There's two reason NW allowed you to beat a fully geared player while naked, one: it's an action RPG as amazon recently rebranded it, and 2: it's just so poorly designed that it allowed for crazy stuff and a ton of exploits. You wouldn't call a civilization top player bad at gaming because they can't aim in fortnite, this is the same.
So many of the players I have seen come into older mmorpg the past six years or so just want to rush to end game. Zero patience. Zero learning time. They copy and repeat what somebody else has done instead of actually looking at if the build fits them.
Whats wrong with using the most effective tactics that people before you have perfected? Should school not exist? Can i just pick up a wrench and call myself a mechanic?
It was interesting this season getting to see a glimpse into the difference between the order the questions were asked vs the order you presented them in based on how far along the Bob Ross tutorial was, haha!
14:07 me as tank in many games "Healer, stop healing the Ranger ... if they aren't going to avoid the mechanics I'd rather they take a dirt nap rather than you spending so much resources on them"
I think gear progression is a weakness in the genre, but that doesn't mean it isn't essential. I did prefer WoW when PvP gear and PvE gear were different and when resistance gear provided a sort of side progression in raids. I've always played a healer, so for me, gear progression isn't such a big deal. I think obviously the more that you can offer players other progression paths, the better.
I think one thing that AoC can do is try to make node progression significant, so that the entire node "team" can progress/win, not just an individual or a raid. And given the size of each realm, several Nodes can get to the top level at once. If Intrepid can have 1/5 of the player base at the top node level at any one time, basking in some shared glory, then I think they will have a hit on their hands.
Last game I played, I purposely didn’t watch UA-cam videos on it. Had a blast learning the game.
I think part of what ruins games now is the alphas and early release. The game is completely fleshed out before release. There are 500 videos on the fastest way to level and the established meta before day 1. There are videos on every aspect of the game mapped out. Players are absolutely following streamers every move and then get bored.
I agree about the Bard opinions. Let me be a bard front line fighter so I can buff the people around me while we are fighting.
I am very interested in trying out this class and I can’t wait to see how this class progresses
FFXI had supports and people loved them. Not just amplify, but in a groups they still did damage and stuff boosted all around them. But their buffs were so good they could drop back and rest when needed.
I suppose it being slower helped as many new mmos require so much speed that the skill of being a technician falls away vs slam your keyboard as fast as possible.
The vision is becoming clearer. Intrepid will deliver. They're looking past Ashes to all the other products and income sources they can tap into, so Ashes will Deliver so that they can capitalize on the brand and their track record. This isn't "Their First MMO" it's Their FOUNDATION.
Both vertical and horizontal progressions are important. Vertical progression shows the personal growth of the character that you are playing, and horizontal progression gives you the fun along the way. It is a role-playing game in a MMO setting, vertical growth matters.
Found this video just now because I just discovered your content. I'd also say that some of the replies you got show that MMO players rely on devs rather than their own efforts to keep their game alive because they're bad at gaming. Until the server shuts off, the life or death of any GaaS game relies on its core players and the devs can do little to change the outcome when those diehards stop playing ball. Subbed by the way.
@@jshtng78 great take. Welcome to the Clinic!
They should just balance areas of the game around that require some horizontal progression for further vertical progression.Have some grinding spots at all level brackets that require items, equipment, consumeables crafted from materials found in other grinding spots, which needed stuff from other grinding spots, etc.
I genuinely don't see a point in playing games unless I can create such a big power difference between myself and my opponents that their skill does not matter. You know what my skill is? Grinding.
They don't rely on vertical progression; they rely on the Internet to tell them how to build their character.
Now in the case of PoE in its current state...who can blame them? Not everyone wants to be a spreadsheet master to play a game and have fun. (Hopefully that's the goal.)
Other people want depth and to make personal meaningful choices as they play. Some complicated ones. More complication means more opportunities for more build diversity.
Thanks Doc, yet another excellent video. I have to admit that I thought this was the second season. Maybe some early dementia here, doh. At least I can sate my appetite for more Bespoke by just watching them from the beginning, lol.
In future seasons of Bespoke, could you perhaps ask the other content creators why they like the classes they main and if they have any tips or tricks to playing those classes, please?
My dude just watch ludwig playing league XD. He thinks he is a pro gamer and is stuck at the lower ranks in the game.
Have very much enjoyed each of your Bespoke seasons. Great concept and execution.
if I could wander around Intrepid for a day, I would read all the planning and theory crafting whiteboards,
Awesome series, I love that you branch out each season. Very art, much creative.
As far as the vert prog, my mmo experience is limited as I’ve only played a few years of swtor and these later ones haven’t been the golden time of the game. I’m going to answer no, because gamers are creative but they can only do so much within the confines of the game they are playing. They are limited by the systems. If you make it so that everything drops if you just play long enough, that doesn’t allow people to reach their potential. If you make things drop only from certain difficulties, it pushes people to git gud and they actually become better players. Once players have bis gear, if the game allows players to just soak damage and play haphazardly, that’s poor game design. Players who can earn bis gear can’t by definition be bad players unless the game allows them to.
P.S. Hope you’re ready for winter up here!
MMOs are a very different skill set vs other genres. Gear can definitely hide lack of skill but at the end of the day the bad player will be exposed. Another reason I love warcraft logs so much, with the click of a button I can see if your gear is carrying you or not. Lol
First response smoked the question. It's so hard to find competitive gamers that actually enjoy pushing boundaries with less items acquired.
Its weird. Like inversely if you were to ask why are so many games competitive when gamers massively love vertical progression. Are game designers trash?
@@dess3597 I think most games try to make something really cool and then they realize they can't actually do it or they want more customers / money. I also think a lot of mmos fail to value the core of their entire game which is community.
this video is what I needed. thank you. great content.
There are pvp based mmos that haven’t raised any level caps for decades. You guys need to look at the game loop for those games more.
The problem with horizontal progression is that you can't become more powerful. The whole point of playing the game is to make something hard, easy. Given time you should be able to solo anything. For some reason dev's don't want to give players this kind of power over time. yeah sure it might take them 2 years to get there. But Hard caps ruin games.
This is a loaded question because MMOs are group-oriented. It doesn't matter how good you are if your team is buns, lol. The best MMO's are the ones that Both Gear and Skill Matter. Gear is going to matter in AoC. (S/N) I also Picked up ESO originally on Consoul, and didn't run in to anything crazy with Champion points lol and I was Consoul first dragon star arena, without a PC player, also was a menace in PvP.
This is a fantastic topic I wish more light was brought to this! ♥️
This is my favorite ashes series. Thanks brother 🫡
Yes. It's exactly how chess players ONLY play chess because they lack the eye hand coordination to play pingpong. That's the only possible reason.
Its weird. Like inversely if you were to ask why are so many games are competitive when gamers massively love vertical progression. Are competitive game designers trash?
Thanks Doc! #AOCA2
1000 hours to get max lvl looks fine to reduces the craft alts festival..
Horizontal progression from gw2 is good but I also think that what really matters more than anything is strong mid game content. And to constantly ask yourself what the mid game is doing.
Those players are what make up the bulk of every single game.
MOst people are not hyper end game.
most people are not hyper early game.
No one cares about those players except the small amount of them
THis is the problem i notice in EVERY SINGLE MMO EVER RELEASED besides ff14 and OSRS AND gw2 itself.
Every Single One.
You are onto something
I wouldnt say mmos take "skill" per say. Just knowledge and time. Time to get the gear and the knowledge of mechanics and abilities. Fps and fighters take skill.
Throwing vlhadus in there was awesome 🤣 Nice.
i didn't know bob ross was into MMOs
As an ex-FPS player, disagree. Totally different skillset obviously, but a skillset nonetheless
Not the case with GW2
Not bad gamers just everyone trying to make their character op with every way possible because they know they can still lose.
Can't tell, abandonned all other mmos since gw2 went out of beta.
"Smells Like Teen Spirit". is how gamers are.
I want a 1-100 dollars sub that only do 1 thing : desactivate all shop visuals and the Game could ruin my life at the level of 1999 Everquest.
Reality is some computers are faster than others by nano secs or less, so the talk about skills is lame. And how close are you to a tower that gives you less lag?
Objective Oriented Players.
people who play mmos for pve are trash
the only good mmo was l2 and it looks like l2 was a fluke cus all other mmos are going in the other direction
the whole purpose of mmo is to give an open world where politics/status matter and not everyone is " equal "
also bosses with mechanics are dumb and wrong
100% mmo players are good at spread sheets
Where can I get that hat
@@blackout3225 link in the description!
Yes MMO Players are simply bad players with bad reaction times and simply bad genetics for this type of activity. Good players Play Competitive games like MOBA or FPS where is No RNG, NO GRIND, NO P2W to get stronger. There is only PURE SKILL and nothing else.
But there is nothing wrong with being bad. I am bad myself and I don't care. I will never be FAKER. So what ?...
But where I have a problem with MMO's is where these literal NOOBS (No skill) players Kills you in MMO while having 10 times better Gear and they feel that they accomplished something. That is just saddest mentality you can have.
Down with the META build...
Yes, I am one of those guys. Big numbie makes me happi
Why do you keep showing boss Ross it's distraction
Not the creators tier list sov😂
no console please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
no you wait for a game for 60 years because you are bad at gaming lol