Is an MFE Worth It?
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- Опубліковано 12 вер 2024
- Is an MFE worth it for quant finance?
To be clear I'm using MFE (masters of financial engineering) as a general term which includes computational finance, mathematical finance, financial risk management, and etc.
I cover MFE vs other masters such as a masters in statistics, Masters vs PhD, and how school reputation matters.
Some MFEs are still worth the time and money while others are lacking the value you may expect. Other options such as statistics or applied mathematics Masters or PhDs could be a better choice.
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Degree provides a foundation, real part begins when we start working. Our nerves are judged at that point.
Physics majors have contributed to the field like Emanuel Derman who holds a PhD in Physics.Similarly this year Quant of the year Jim Gatheral is also a Physics major.This is surprising as science major becoming successful in Quantitative Finance.
Not really physics is basically a maths degree plus you have to be very intelligent to understand the physics at degree level
@@nikiduncan396 Dear Niki, you are absolutely right but there are Quants with degree in Physics and than they worked in the Quant Finance industry
@@nikiduncan396 Physics is far from a maths degree.
@@singularity3724 no it’s not
Carnegie Mellon is a top rated school for statistics, as well as computational finance, and they have both masters and PhD programs
What is your opinion about Stony Brook's Master in Quantitative Finance, Dimitri?
I don't follow too many programs as it takes a lot of research to figure out how well a program is actually structured.
Hi Dimitri, Thank you for this informative video. I'm a current undergrad studying financial mathematics at Baruch college.And I plan on getting my MFE at Baruch college after. I have two question; first, is how does the MFE program at Baruch compare to other MFE programs offered by Ivy League schools or your more prestigious private schools like NYU ? Lastly, I'm currently 26 years old getting my undergrad, so I'm worry that, assuming age is a big factor in the hiring process, getting employment would be difficult. Your reply would be greatly appreciated !! thanks !
26 is still fairly young. Also the quant industry doesn't consider age when hiring.
Baruch has a great reputation in the industry as well as job placement. They seem to focus more towards quant dev but have a rigorous education from what I can tell.
You lost me at "I view a three year Ph.D. the same as a Master's." Why? If a student completes a strong thesis Master's they may not need a full five years. I also don't like blacklisting schools. You shouldn't let a few bad students/interviewees ruin for future students.
Brilliant, thanks for the answer.
Very insightful, I am starting my journey of Financial Engineering Honours next year, my aim is to hit PhD.
What's your opinion on CQF?
Very insightful comments. Thanks!
Love this channel ❤ 💕 🙌 😍
Thanks!
incredibly annoying that companies still actually care quite a bit about the school you’ve gone to…
Why shouldn’t they? They won’t say it, but the main thing they’re actually filtering on is raw IQ. The white board questions aren’t very different from raven’s progressive matrices.
When you’ve graduated from a school with a 5% acceptance rate and average GRE score in the top 3 percentile, the school has done most of that filtering for them.
I recall you saying in a past video that a phd is only worth it if you are really invested in the subject itself, and that if it’s just for the job prospects, a master is better. Does that still hold?
Yes but there are some details to it. If you want to end up in quant research then get a PhD as it is required almost all places. For model development jobs a PhD is preferred however a Masters can also get you there. A Masters is expensive in money up front however you save both time and money in the long run.
Is it sill true for the MFE Master ? Did they got better in value, e.i if we did it from haas , NYU etc
Many firms have started hiring more from the MFE degrees as they are wanting the finance knowledge. I now have my own list of recommended programs which is fairly small but a good start if you are looking at programs.
www.fancyquantnation.com/quant-finance-list
@@DimitriBianco Thankyou
Hello. I am applying to schools for next year and was wondering What r ur thoughts on the masters in data science at upenn? Thx.
I have not review their program as there are a lot of programs in the US. Good data science programs will focus on the math, statistics, and CS. Application of the methods is good but just make sure half the classes aren't applying it to a bunch of random fields (medicine, tech, finance, and etc.). Getting a taste of everything won't make you specialized enough. UPenn in general is a good school though.
how is the Stevens financial engineering program?
Plz help
What other programs have u applied or looking to apply for?
The quality of a program changes over the years and I haven't dug deep in a long time. A piece of advice would be to look up their graduates on LinkedIn and see where they are working. If you think their job looks interesting, then choose that school.
@@saurabhsingh3542 I have offers from Rutgers, claremont ....
Thank you!
Are quantitative PhD’s more applicable in the industry than soft science PhDs? The reason I ask is because I’m currently pursuing a PhD in Finance and am thinking about searching for a job in industry rather than academia. Could my degree be applied in something like equity research or director of research jobs?
It depends on what topics you covered in your PhD and at what depth. As for job titles you would start near the bottom such as quant analyst or quant associate (AVP). Getting to be a director takes many years and a lot of PhDs never reach that level.
what percentage of analysts make it to director? whats the comp at that point and is it worth it in your opinion?@@DimitriBianco
Top MFEs in the UK are £25-35k whereas applied math and stats masters at the same unis are £10-15k so its worth considering if you will end up at the same destination
From a competition standpoint is it slightly easier to get into applied math and stats programs?
@@4seth Yeah, they usually attract fewer applications so it is slightly easier
@@Sam-yu4ve Out of curiosity, which MScs in the UK are you referring to?
@@jqn8361 lse, imperial, ucl, warwick, oxford all fall under this comment
@@Sam-yu4ve Thanks!
Would you consider Masters Of Quantitative Finance from UTS in Sydney, Australia to be a good degree?
Hi Dimitri; I am starting a Msc in Computational and Mathematical Finance this following September . I am 26 and will be 27 when graduating . Do you think this is an issue? I do have experience on finance working as aN Asset Management Analyst . Thank you. Great works btw .
For the US you'll be the average age for PhD grads. Quant finance also doesn't care too much about age.
@@DimitriBianco thank you; I am curious about what you think in regards to the CQF ?
Hi Dimitri, I'm an senior international student studying in a State university, with Applied Math + Finance majors, and Statistics minor. I've only taken basic introductory programming classes for C++ and Java, I also did some MATLAB and R (I took one for python but wouldn't count that because the class barely did any programming in python). What career in FE do you think would suit me? I'm trying to apply for MFE this year. I'm not sure Implementation would work well since I don't have much programming background, and Research seems impossible as you need a PHD for it (which I won't do because of how long it takes)
I would look into model development and model validation jobs. It is a mix of masters and phds and you use statistics to build tools for the business.
@@DimitriBianco Thankyou! Do you know how much Grad Schools take Internship/Work experience into consideration? I'm a 3.94 GPA student but I haven't done any work/internship relevant to the finance industry (the one informal internship I got was cancelled due to covid) and I'm a bit worried about this.
It varies from school to school but most of them are looking for strong academics as the main focus. I didn't have any internships when I went to grad school and most of them laughed when I mentioned I worked at a startup that manufactured restrooms so I left it off my application.
Ross Center
I've twenty seven years in front office banking.MFE will NOT land you a quant job.It is simply delusional to think you will be offered such a job even with quantitative related programming experience. Someone wanting to hire a quant will simply get a (possibly fresh) PhD holder as there's plenty around and in some cases without necessarily having direct experience in the traditional calculus based mathematics - it can be just be based on where he studied and sometimes who his doctoral supervisor was. The rational being here that he'll be bright enough to learn the requisite maths etc on the job. The MFE can get you a BA job where you interface off between developers and the business but in the end it is your (software) experience which trumps over all MFE's. The MFE is just a good way for foreign students from the usual culprit countries to get a foot in the door in the countries of choice for work purposes. But don't be delusional in thinking an MFE will get you a quant job - at best you'll still be coding under the remit of the IT department of said bank etc and not under the business remit which translates as being less valuable to the bank and hence less renumeration.
I've looked at recruitment stats for a bunch of the "nicer" programs (CMU/Columbia) and they have a bunch of banks/Hedge funds recruiting for quant research roles. Are these any different from the roles that PhDs get recruited for?
They are the same roles. Some firms have been lessening the phd requirement in the last 4-5 years.
Hey, thanks for your videos, I really enjoy your insights!!
Why don't you like hiring physics PhD's? I thought the quant world is full of people who hold a Physics PhD.
And do you think is there a big difference between Physics and pure Math majors? Thank
Many physicists think the world operates according to laws such as the ones used in physics. While this is true for the physical world it is not true for people (economics, finance, psychology, sociology, and etc.). They often rely too heavily on models as facts when the are representations of people and they will break down over time. Many of them also have the attitude that physics is the only thing that matters and they are arrogant in the way they behave. This isn't all of them but this attitude makes them hard to work with. The arrogance is common in many PhDs though. This doesn't mean I would hire a physicist but the misconception that they are amazing at quant finance is not true.
Pure math is a good choice for working in math heavy areas of quant finance such as derivatives. They are equally prepared with physicists as they should have covered topics like stochastic calculus and have a deep understanding of mathematical theory.
You were quite careful not to mention the names of those original tried and true master programs. Is there any chance to find out their names?
This isn't a complete list and it might be out dated however some of the original programs are Columbia, NYU, Baruch, CMU, and Cornell.
@@DimitriBianco Thank you very much!
what about princeton and MIT?@@SauranSarbassov
Does the notoriety of the school matter as much with the Ph. D. as it does with the MFE?
It depends on the firm that is hiring. Many places do care and they care where you published. But many firms also like to hire local candidates. If you went to school in Chicago for example, they are more likely to hire you even if you have an average school.
Hey Dimitri, I have bachelor's degree in mechanical engineering, and 2 years work experience in finance (forex, crypto, option trading etc). I'm 25, I'm planning to apply for masters in MFE, is it viable ?
Yes it is viable. Getting into a program shouldn't be too hard as long as you do well on the tests (GRE or GMAT). 25 isn't very old and quants don't care much about age.
Do you have degree classes in USA? For example, here in Italy we have degree codes, each code identifying the degree class. Every class hass a minimum amount of credits guaranteed in specific fields. For example for us the code LM16 identifies the class "finance" and it refers to quant finance. It guarantees a minimum amount of credits in maths stats and coding. Doing like this there's no mor problem of the degree name which just confuses things
Yes we having class codes like this however for quant finance (MFE and all that) it is usually a mix of finance, math, stats, and other topics. There is actually some organization that designates degrees as STEM (science, tech, engineering, and math) however the bar has been made so low that if you add a class or two in STEM, they give it STEM accreditation. The STEM accreditation is important for international students though because it allows you to stay in the US longer while you look for work.
@@DimitriBianco this is so bad. There's no more distinction between technical degrees and soft degrees in this way. The good thing you could do is then reporting the subjects you've studied on your cv, as you suggested many times, otherwise there's no way to differ from other non technical degrees
so if you come from a double major Econ & math/stats, what degree should be better to get a job that has quant aspects?
Math and stats are more likely to get you a quant job.
If you asked me a few years ago, I would have said yes. But I wouldn't say it's worth it now. I've made so much from the last year in trading by myself that I could pay for a MFE 10 times over. My BSc was stressful enough and from what I've heard, mfe would be even worse. If you're even considering a career in quantitative analysis/finance then you're probably intelligent enough to just trade your own money
Technical analysis?
@@AakashSharma-xj6td lmao
How often do you see Econ PhD's as quants, or if they're not quants, what roles are they normally in? I'm currently getting my master's in Applied Econ and considering going for a PhD in Econ for both the sake of knowledge and career prospects (definitely not in academia though, haha)
There are a handful of econ PhDs in risk management where I work. They have worked in both model development and model validation.
If your PhD is related to time series then some hedge funds will be interested, otherwise I've never seen an econ PhD in a front office role.
How do you rate a PhD in Operations Research for Quant Finance?
It is a possible path. Again the key is to write a resume to show what skills overlap.
Thanks for your insights Dimitri. I am planning to apply for MFE next year when I will by 33 and I already have a 5 years experience in risk modelling. Is it fine to do MFE at that age.?
It is. Quant finance is more about skill and knowledge than age. Many have PhDs as well meaning many are 27-30 before they start a career.
What you mean by a rockstar masters student?
top program top grades
I use rock star as a rare term but more appropriately a "fancy quant." Fining someone with a deep understanding of topics who also has the soft skills. I don't care about grades or school when I refer "rock star."
An example of this comes from interviewing or just grabbing coffee. If I can ask you a few basic questions and then we end up going off on a very specific topic in great detail, you could possibly be a rock star quant. This is VERY rare though, especially from a student but also from professionals. I have had this happen a few times in my career but it is not common.
Is financial mathematics better - MSc
It's the same just the university chose a different name. Similar to computational finance.
I have no degree, but did till 3rd year, 3rd semester. I am self taught in s/w dev with over 20 years experience.
Do you consider the Imperial Business School MFE a good dregree?
From looking at their website they look fairly good. They actually made my 2022 list which can be found here:
www.fancyquantnation.com/quant-finance-list
Can accountants get into quant finance?
It's possible to get into an MFE but you'll have to do your research as most require more math classes than accountants have taken. I'll link a video below on the common math courses required.
Undergrad math requirements for most quant masters:
ua-cam.com/video/MrVahidTAUc/v-deo.htmlsi=ypYMQmQX7FNuh1D2
Do you play piano
No but my wife does. I tried as a child and can play a few very short runs of notes but it is not a skill I posses. I do play the guitar though and I played the clarinet for 4 years.