@@The4GunGuy Sure that is true. However, I've seen pet loads that produce single digit SD/ES and the shot groups are 3 to 4 times the size of a different load that has a terrible SD/ES. I care much more about getting the tightest group possible and SD/ES is a distant concern. I ONLY care about velocity so I can plug the number into by ballistic program. After that I am not concerned with velocity any longer, until my groups start opening up on me and I need to do some troubleshooting. :)
@@Rico11b Your approach works great for short range, but ES/SD is critically important for long range. Your tight high ES group at 100 will blow up at 1000.
I find that whole idea of each barrel having a "node" for best consistent accuracy to be a fascinating physics problem. But its a real thing. One thing that is interesting, is that the "energy" from the explosion of firing the cartridge travels down the barrel much faster then the bullet does, down the barrel. Once the energy gets to the end of the barrel, that's not the completion of the energy "wave" it bounces back. I think it is these Shock wave oscillations that causes these nodes. ( thearmsguide 22 May 2020. Barrel Vibration and accuracy )
Hi Ray! Yep, I agree that the "bounce back" has some affect for sure, and one of many variables that affect our final numbers. In many of my videos I try to state that we'll never reach "nirvana", but we try to eliminate or minimize the affects of the variables we can control, so they have a smaller impact on those we can't. And I agree with you, my BS degree is in Mathematics, with a focus on non-linear dynamics (chaos theory), so I am definitely a numbers guy like you! Thanks for watching my friend!
I became interested in the velocity of sound (energy) waves while learning to track submarines The temperature gradient of the ocean affects the propagation of the sounds of the submarine. Aviator, USN.
Hi Palmer! You can do a primer seating depth, but my take on that is stick with a depth (0.002" - 0.004" let's say) and just use it. If you change too many variables, you may end up with the other variables getting "out of whack" so to speak, and then, you're just chasing your tail. Again, I'm speaking from a PRS shooting perspective, but even with F-Class, there are many videos about those guys not necessarily chasing the primer seating depth. Hope this helps and thanks for watching my friend!
Hi Sniper! Agreed. Many things are impacting accuracy and to your point, I have checked firing pin, spring and my tolerances from a cartridge/chamber perspective. They all seem to be in tolerance, BUT, that "tolerance" still provides some degree of variance that I'll never be able to work out of the overall equation. I'm very happy with these results, especially the 29.3 load, so I'm going to continue on to seating depth testing with that. Stay tuned, and thanks for watching my friend!
@The4GunGuy what I'm referring to is inside your bolt. If you haven't, you should check out some of the stuff Speedy Gonzales and Eric Cortina have to say on the matter. You do have good results, but if they can be better, it just gives you that much more of an edge. Don't go into it thinking your gun shoots better than you do. It's more like you're a team, and both of you should be at your best. If you and your gun can shoot .25 groups, then both of you are twice as good as when you shot .5 groups.
Good point. I just replaced my firing pin and spring on an Impact action and it made a difference. The old spring was about 1/2" shorter. I replaced the ejector pin/spring and the extractor/spring as well. Noticed a difference in ejection. I had about 2500 rounds on the springs before I replaced them. Replace the barrel - replace the springs.
@palmersasscer7462 any of the bench rest, or f-class guys do it at least once a year, even if they don't use the gun. Speedy says he has found custom actions with bolt shrouds not clearanced correctly. It helps SDs and ESs. You might not need that precision for PRS, but I can guarantee it doesn't hurt to have a more accurate and consistent gun.
I have a question. And it's all personal preference I know that, but I'm currently running 31gr of varget In my 6 dasher 105 hornady match bthp. But have a crap ton of h4895 do you prefer it over varget? Current group sizing is about. .74in I have not yet reached 100 rounds through the gun. So I'm not doing to big of load testing yet. My loads are 2850fps. I'm just curious why your running h4895 I know the common consensus on these rounds and my br have always been varget
Hi Michael! I had 32lbs of Varget, and sold it or traded it all for H4895. So you know I like to tell a story, here it goes...When I went to the 6mm BRA, Varget wasn't available, but H4895 was, so I bought some and used it with great success, then, Varget became available so I switched, thinking it would be better. NOPE. I got better everything from H4895, SD's, ES's, groups, so I went back to H4895. I have had NO temp issues (it's pretty close to Varget in that respect, 0.23 for H4895 vs. 0.19 for Varget) and is faster burning than Varget, so I don't have to use as much powder to obtain the same velocity nodes. All my buddies use Varget, and it's a great powder, but for ME, H4895 is the way to go. Hope this helps and honestly, you're good with either one. Thanks for watching my friend!
Hi there, I’ve got a new 6mm barrel on the way and am changing to the 6bra. The plan is to fire form lapua 6br brass. Do you have a reamer print or specs for your reamer? I’m about to pull the trigger on a Manson reamer. It has a a .272 neck and a .104 free bore. I plan to shoot 108 Eldm’s. Any help would be much appreciated.
Hi James! I used www.jgsprecision.com for my reamer, which was spec'd by my gunsmith so it would/could handle many brass brands (Lapua, Alpha, etc...). My free bore is longer than yours, and I got two different pilot sizes. My neck is also a bit larger. I would definitely measure your brass to make sure you're going to be fine, and remember, you can go a bit larger and fire form. Unfortunately, I can't give you the specs for legal purposes. If you contact your reamer manufacturer, they should be able to help you with questions. Thanks for watching my friend!
“Velocity nodes” are wishful thinking on the part of those who are uninformed & mistakenly use small sample sizes to make decisions important decisions.
Hi Jeff! I understand what you're saying, but we have to start somewhere and testing something, even if they are smaller sample sizes. I agree that a larger sample size would give us a much better understanding of the numbers, and my MBA Statistics professor would have laughed at using this sample size, but the reality is that we are trying to get some data while not shooting out our barrel getting it. This method has worked well for me through the 15 barrels I've shot in PRS, and even though not perfect, helps me to understand those things that I can control to reach targets at distance. Thanks for watching my friend!
Velocity base load development isn't getting it done. Let the target tell you what's happening, not the chronograph. Use the OCW method and put the Chorny away until you've already found your charge weight. Chasing SD/ES is a waste of time, and it'll be different for every shooting session anyways. Some days you'll hit single digits SD/ES and some days you won't, but it doesn't matter if the rifle is still grouping beautifully. This was all figured out LONG BEFORE people had chronographs in their bags so they HAD TO base things off of what the target is telling them.
I tend to agree with you and I even said in the video that I don't pay that much attention to SD/ES because they tend to fall into an acceptable tolerance, for me anyway. And as you said above in another comment, you only need to velocity for truing that ballistic app with the final cartridge build, so all great points.
The "flat velocity node" is a myth. Try to minimize MV SD.
Hi YERA! By minimizing the SD and ES, we are getting to the "flat velocity node", so your point is certainly valid. Thanks for watching my friend!
@@The4GunGuy Sure that is true. However, I've seen pet loads that produce single digit SD/ES and the shot groups are 3 to 4 times the size of a different load that has a terrible SD/ES. I care much more about getting the tightest group possible and SD/ES is a distant concern. I ONLY care about velocity so I can plug the number into by ballistic program. After that I am not concerned with velocity any longer, until my groups start opening up on me and I need to do some troubleshooting. :)
@@Rico11b Your approach works great for short range, but ES/SD is critically important for long range. Your tight high ES group at 100 will blow up at 1000.
@L0NGRNGE No, it doesn't!!! I shoot out to 1000 yards regularly.
@@Rico11b Sigh... Good luck to you.
I find that whole idea of each barrel having a "node" for best consistent accuracy to be a fascinating physics problem. But its a real thing. One thing that is interesting, is that the "energy" from the explosion of firing the cartridge travels down the barrel much faster then the bullet does, down the barrel. Once the energy gets to the end of the barrel, that's not the completion of the energy "wave" it bounces back. I think it is these Shock wave oscillations that causes these nodes. ( thearmsguide 22 May 2020. Barrel Vibration and accuracy )
Hi Ray! Yep, I agree that the "bounce back" has some affect for sure, and one of many variables that affect our final numbers. In many of my videos I try to state that we'll never reach "nirvana", but we try to eliminate or minimize the affects of the variables we can control, so they have a smaller impact on those we can't. And I agree with you, my BS degree is in Mathematics, with a focus on non-linear dynamics (chaos theory), so I am definitely a numbers guy like you! Thanks for watching my friend!
I became interested in the velocity of sound (energy) waves while learning to track submarines The temperature gradient of the ocean affects the propagation of the sounds of the submarine. Aviator, USN.
Great videos! I really liked the video doping the wind. After you find the powder node and the seating depth, do you do a primer seating test?
Hi Palmer! You can do a primer seating depth, but my take on that is stick with a depth (0.002" - 0.004" let's say) and just use it. If you change too many variables, you may end up with the other variables getting "out of whack" so to speak, and then, you're just chasing your tail. Again, I'm speaking from a PRS shooting perspective, but even with F-Class, there are many videos about those guys not necessarily chasing the primer seating depth. Hope this helps and thanks for watching my friend!
Have you checked your ignition? Those flyers could be from that. I'd look at my firing pin, spring, and the clearances
Hi Sniper! Agreed. Many things are impacting accuracy and to your point, I have checked firing pin, spring and my tolerances from a cartridge/chamber perspective. They all seem to be in tolerance, BUT, that "tolerance" still provides some degree of variance that I'll never be able to work out of the overall equation. I'm very happy with these results, especially the 29.3 load, so I'm going to continue on to seating depth testing with that. Stay tuned, and thanks for watching my friend!
@The4GunGuy what I'm referring to is inside your bolt. If you haven't, you should check out some of the stuff Speedy Gonzales and Eric Cortina have to say on the matter. You do have good results, but if they can be better, it just gives you that much more of an edge. Don't go into it thinking your gun shoots better than you do. It's more like you're a team, and both of you should be at your best. If you and your gun can shoot .25 groups, then both of you are twice as good as when you shot .5 groups.
How exactly does one “check ignition” without a PVAT setup & a start switch on the firing pin?
Good point. I just replaced my firing pin and spring on an Impact action and it made a difference. The old spring was about 1/2" shorter. I replaced the ejector pin/spring and the extractor/spring as well. Noticed a difference in ejection. I had about 2500 rounds on the springs before I replaced them. Replace the barrel - replace the springs.
@palmersasscer7462 any of the bench rest, or f-class guys do it at least once a year, even if they don't use the gun. Speedy says he has found custom actions with bolt shrouds not clearanced correctly. It helps SDs and ESs. You might not need that precision for PRS, but I can guarantee it doesn't hurt to have a more accurate and consistent gun.
I have a question. And it's all personal preference I know that, but I'm currently running 31gr of varget In my 6 dasher 105 hornady match bthp.
But have a crap ton of h4895 do you prefer it over varget? Current group sizing is about. .74in I have not yet reached 100 rounds through the gun. So I'm not doing to big of load testing yet. My loads are 2850fps. I'm just curious why your running h4895 I know the common consensus on these rounds and my br have always been varget
Hi Michael! I had 32lbs of Varget, and sold it or traded it all for H4895. So you know I like to tell a story, here it goes...When I went to the 6mm BRA, Varget wasn't available, but H4895 was, so I bought some and used it with great success, then, Varget became available so I switched, thinking it would be better. NOPE. I got better everything from H4895, SD's, ES's, groups, so I went back to H4895. I have had NO temp issues (it's pretty close to Varget in that respect, 0.23 for H4895 vs. 0.19 for Varget) and is faster burning than Varget, so I don't have to use as much powder to obtain the same velocity nodes. All my buddies use Varget, and it's a great powder, but for ME, H4895 is the way to go. Hope this helps and honestly, you're good with either one. Thanks for watching my friend!
Hi there,
I’ve got a new 6mm barrel on the way and am changing to the 6bra. The plan is to fire form lapua 6br brass. Do you have a reamer print or specs for your reamer? I’m about to pull the trigger on a Manson reamer. It has a a .272 neck and a .104 free bore. I plan to shoot 108 Eldm’s.
Any help would be much appreciated.
Hi James! I used www.jgsprecision.com for my reamer, which was spec'd by my gunsmith so it would/could handle many brass brands (Lapua, Alpha, etc...). My free bore is longer than yours, and I got two different pilot sizes. My neck is also a bit larger. I would definitely measure your brass to make sure you're going to be fine, and remember, you can go a bit larger and fire form. Unfortunately, I can't give you the specs for legal purposes. If you contact your reamer manufacturer, they should be able to help you with questions. Thanks for watching my friend!
@@The4GunGuy Thanks.
“Velocity nodes” are wishful thinking on the part of those who are uninformed & mistakenly use small sample sizes to make decisions important decisions.
Hi Jeff! I understand what you're saying, but we have to start somewhere and testing something, even if they are smaller sample sizes. I agree that a larger sample size would give us a much better understanding of the numbers, and my MBA Statistics professor would have laughed at using this sample size, but the reality is that we are trying to get some data while not shooting out our barrel getting it. This method has worked well for me through the 15 barrels I've shot in PRS, and even though not perfect, helps me to understand those things that I can control to reach targets at distance. Thanks for watching my friend!
Velocity base load development isn't getting it done.
Let the target tell you what's happening, not the chronograph. Use the OCW method and put the Chorny away until you've already found your charge weight. Chasing SD/ES is a waste of time, and it'll be different for every shooting session anyways. Some days you'll hit single digits SD/ES and some days you won't, but it doesn't matter if the rifle is still grouping beautifully. This was all figured out LONG BEFORE people had chronographs in their bags so they HAD TO base things off of what the target is telling them.
I tend to agree with you and I even said in the video that I don't pay that much attention to SD/ES because they tend to fall into an acceptable tolerance, for me anyway. And as you said above in another comment, you only need to velocity for truing that ballistic app with the final cartridge build, so all great points.