Should you use fuel drums?

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  • Опубліковано 10 лис 2024

КОМЕНТАРІ • 69

  • @jaxkommish
    @jaxkommish 10 місяців тому +75

    Logistics can be boring. But commanders who ignore logistics get beaten

    • @counterfactualgaming
      @counterfactualgaming  10 місяців тому +16

      You aren't lying. I've read quotations from military leaders as far back as Alexander the Great talking about the importance of logistics.
      A friend of mine and I also have a years long debate on whether Rommel should be given the Logistics Wizard trait given his performance in North Africa. Was he doing the best he could in a bad situation, or would North African forces have benefitted from a leader with better logistics ability? A dispute we haven't resolved to this day. :)

    • @jaxkommish
      @jaxkommish 10 місяців тому +4

      @@counterfactualgaming I tend to fall on the side that Romell was ruining his forces by overtaxing his logistics, but that was his best option since the theater was never going to get enough resources to do the job. He did better in France where it didn't matter as much. in HOI4 terms I'd leave Log Wiz off make sure he has Aggressive
      Assaulter

    • @jarvee9407
      @jarvee9407 10 місяців тому

      @@counterfactualgaming Rommel is notorious for charging deep into enemy lines without proper logistic support, he doesnt care about them, he should definetely not have it

    • @counterfactualgaming
      @counterfactualgaming  10 місяців тому +3

      @@jaxkommishWe never really got to see Rommel do a full Round 2 in France, did we? One wonders what Rommel's logistics would have looked like fighting under Allied air supremacy at the end of 44 and into 45.

    • @jaxkommish
      @jaxkommish 10 місяців тому

      @@counterfactualgaming Yeah the closest thing we got was his plan for responding to the landings. He wanted to preserve mobile reserves to hit beachheads early with enough armor to push the Allies back into the channel. Its hard to see how he could have done that to multiple landing sites. But the wild combination of factors in through the end of July 44 meant he never really got to try that

  • @floridaman4073
    @floridaman4073 10 місяців тому +24

    Yep, been using them since they came out. Glad you did a video on this, they are really good applied correctly. Was a 19k (Tanker) in a past life. When we were the most vulnerable is when we were low on fuel and in the refueling process. So out of fuel de-buffs accurately depict this in game.

    • @counterfactualgaming
      @counterfactualgaming  10 місяців тому +8

      Yep. The current mechanics ensures that we can't do what I used to do in early versions of HOI4. Drive from Krakow to Moscow without stopping just because there was a tiny gap in the front line.

  • @gforce95vn
    @gforce95vn 10 місяців тому +19

    Thanks for covering this topic, I've been using 3-4 fuel drums on flame tanks and recon light tanks. Even on main tanks, I will have two fuel drums with the other two slots being Radio and Easy Maintenance/Sloped Armor/Wet Ammo Storage. Fuel Drums is strong if there's an emphasis on breakthrough-style macro. Using tanks to punch through the lines, outrunning your own supply line is where Fuel Drums shine. This is almost mandatory as i aim for my armored division for 10kmh if not higher.

  • @JasonWolfeYT
    @JasonWolfeYT 10 місяців тому +8

    Also, why can't I make a motorized supply battalion? Real panzer divisions had truck battalions. Modern ones have them. They aren't just supply companies. It could cost you combat width to have worthless fuel trucks but would add more strategic depth by allow true exploitation divisions.

    • @floridaman4073
      @floridaman4073 10 місяців тому +4

      Always wondered why that wasn’t included as a unit. It’s dictated now by strikes on logistics nodes and rail lines. That’s what trucks and trains are for so it is represented in a sense.

    • @gildedphoenix
      @gildedphoenix 3 місяці тому +2

      Doesn't Logistics Companies use motorized already?

  • @l--o__o--l
    @l--o__o--l 5 місяців тому +5

    Radio + easy maintenance + slopped armour + fuel drum

    • @counterfactualgaming
      @counterfactualgaming  5 місяців тому +3

      Using the radio to call for more fuel? 😁

    • @l--o__o--l
      @l--o__o--l 5 місяців тому +3

      @@counterfactualgaming and bullets 😂😂
      I need more bullets I need more bullets 😂

  • @adrielcamilo2564
    @adrielcamilo2564 10 місяців тому +15

    For the part where you said "What would cause more damage, the one full with weapons or the one full with fuel", my answer was: Well depends, they gonna fight in a vacuum or you gonna bring the context of the fight. Most players expect Soft Attack = Better tank regardless of the situation! You are doing a great job showing the whole picture and not simply comparing the two models! Keep up with the work :D

    • @counterfactualgaming
      @counterfactualgaming  10 місяців тому +5

      Thank you!

    • @Zack_Wester
      @Zack_Wester 10 місяців тому +4

      another way is does not matter if one tank have 100 soft attack (if it have zero reliability) and no fuel drums if its upp against a tank whit 20 soft attack and fuel and 101% reliability.
      if the 100 soft attack break down and runs out of fuel all the time because the fight takes place in china or russia or afrika or other location whit no or poor deployed train infrastructure and also low local infrastructure.
      because break down and out of fuel and maybe even supplies will mean that 100 soft tank now performs like it had 5 soft attack.
      a proper designed King tiger tank is scare and all that as long as you fight somewhat close to a logistic center but drive it from Berlin to east of Moscva and sudenly you get a letter that the Logistic and maintenance office just left becaues there is no logistic train that can carry that tank that far.

  • @TeleologicalConsistency
    @TeleologicalConsistency 8 місяців тому +7

    You do more damage over time but are you winning the battles? One aspect not fully addressed here is that while you would win a war of attrition with the damage over time tank it doesn't help if you lose the fights and get driven back or blitzed. The best compromise is having fuel drums on Flame Tank since it doesn't contribute much to your division stats. This way your tank division is good enough to win fights while having enough fuel to stay in the fight for longer.

    • @patrickhenry1249
      @patrickhenry1249 Місяць тому

      Why are you fighting a war of attrition with your most expensive breakthrough units lol? 😂

    • @TeleologicalConsistency
      @TeleologicalConsistency Місяць тому

      @@patrickhenry1249 Reread what I said. That's literally the opposite of what I said.

  • @josepsamarrafarre
    @josepsamarrafarre 10 місяців тому +4

    Great video as always!
    In my case, after using armoured divisions in China for the first time, I never stopped adding fuel drums on all my tank designs that are going to be part of armoured division templates used for explotaition. Even if you can pierce the frontlines with other stronger tank designs, the fact that you actually can close those pockets or even overrun fleeing divisions (without switching to snail pace after using your last drop of gas) is going to be much more efficient in the long run.
    Other than that, I just wanted to complete the info from the video by commenting that WEATHER is also a critical parameter when it comes to supply problems (bad weather modifiers are awful by themselves and, on top of those, they also cause lots of attrition to your supply trucks). Speaking of trucks, remember that they are crucial but don't forget to keep a decent level of trains in your stockpile (Infrastructure 5 with railroads lvl5 and full motorisation don't help much without those the right amount of trains bringing all that juicy fuel and supplies to your depots...).

  • @floridaman4073
    @floridaman4073 10 місяців тому +3

    As a video, this is the only one that I’ve seen or could find about this subject in depth from any other UA-camr. So congrats 🎉

  • @astrobeno
    @astrobeno 2 місяці тому

    usually use 4 type of divisions with tanks, for which I solve the drums or guns problem
    1. paratroop - a reconnaissance company and a company of flamethrower tanks in it must have fuel drums, because these divisions will not be possible to fully supply them, then even partial supply (by air and from local sources) allows you to replenish drums for a attack to a close cell or run back without penalties for tanks
    2. Marines - on the contrary, I do not equip the same tanks and floating ones with fuel drums and even underestimate their speed by strengthening armor and body kit weapons, since Marine tanks land close to ports or in them, which means they receive supplies, and attacks on neighboring cells (expansion of the bridgehead) are met by under-deployed or retreating divisions who do not have time to burn the accumulated fuel, while the speed is determined by pedestrians with flippers
    3. breakthrough divisions - I do not pay attention to fuel, these are several divisions with large breakthrough values, anti-personnel guns and armor, serve to suppress the resistance of enemy divisions at the front (in fortifications or entrenched), fuel does not have time to run out due to good supplies, speed is unimportant
    4. a maneuver division is usually 24 divisions with a supply general (supply master, high level of logistics) and high speed of movement, tanks in it are a maximum of one light or medium and artillery / anti-aircraft gun (for armor and fuel), mostly tanks are reconnaissance and flamethrowers, hung with drums, such a division makes a quick march deep into (after the breakthrough, point 3) and it needs a lot of km/h and fuel, the basis of tactics is a march along the railways with the capture of supply nodes and the rapid recovery of supplies, and therefore fuel, and the tanks give that difference in hours / cells for running along the rear, while the defense is disorganized and everything inside gets into the pocket
    I build one light cheapest tank (initial turret, minimum armor, machine gun instead of a gun), and then convert them (or the starting stock) into three types of LT - 4 km/ h, armor, AP cannons, machine guns (division 3 and 2); 8-9 km/h to 10 km/ h, a lot of tanks, the rest as it fits (division 4); as the airborne forces appear, add the option of 4 km/ h, with drums

  • @The_Hussar
    @The_Hussar 10 місяців тому +3

    I also add dozer blades on my medium flame tanks, it gives 1 entrenchment to the tank division

    • @gildedphoenix
      @gildedphoenix 3 місяці тому

      Give Armor recon LT too. With these two and Engineers your divisions have pure GBP level like entrenchment.

  • @FatheredPuma81
    @FatheredPuma81 5 місяців тому +1

    Imo without watching Fuel Drums are insane when you can crack the front line and want to push really far really fast but are atrocious if you can't or don't need to. I straight up did Barbarossa and pushed all the way to Moscow with 3x Fuel Drum per tank Tank Divisions without ever stopping.
    Of course you also get the added flexibility of being able to resupply your tanks and drive them into areas without supply and push.

  • @patricksimpson1157
    @patricksimpson1157 10 місяців тому +1

    I never find myself using them but I appreciate the time stamps

  • @nebojsag.5871
    @nebojsag.5871 2 місяці тому

    Honestly, if you are gonna be using tanks, make sure they break through, ASAP. Because if your tanks are too slow, any enemy that is strong enough to slow down your tanks is going to be strong enough to bring in reinforcements quickly enough that your ability to stay in the fight doesn't matter.

  • @novitrix9671
    @novitrix9671 2 місяці тому

    Superb video, perfection 🥰

  • @danielgloyd4529
    @danielgloyd4529 7 місяців тому

    This is interesting information. I play exclusively single plyer, and I don't think it fits my playstyle, though. I rarely have tanks in prolonged combat. I want to break the line as fast as possible with a tank division and maybe push through 3 to 4 tiles to get a small encirclement. I constantly stop and build up my planning bonus before each attack, so I am almost always at full supply and fuel.
    I could definitely see fuel tanks being more useful in trying to pull off a massive encirclement or pushing across a large portion of the front line to rapidly gain territory.

    • @counterfactualgaming
      @counterfactualgaming  7 місяців тому +2

      It's not for everyone. And you are quite right about breaking the line faster. But I have to be honest: your first million man encirclement in the east is a moment you will never forget.

  • @Zack_Wester
    @Zack_Wester Місяць тому

    I sort of sad that we dont see any tank design whit just 1 fuel tank and how well/bad that would perform vs the other two.
    Like I see so many I slapped as many guns on this battleship and then I made a battleship whit 1 guns and saw how the performance per unit of industry.
    completely ignoring the (default) battleship whit the standard 12 guns that was absolutely flooring the other two in 99% of the cases.
    the only time the 1 gun battleship won over the other two was because as set of event would result in the battleship 1 not getting hit and scoring enouth damage to cause the other ship to return to port for repair mid battle.
    meanwhile the max gun ship was always outnumbered and constantly repairing does not mater that it could theoretically dish out 5 times as much damage when it left the battle after 12 hours from scratch damage.
    meanwhile the standard 12 gun ships was fighting the whole battle and dishing out enouth damage to sink stuff but never be who fully outnumbered.
    and the amount the 1 gun ship outnumbered the 12 gun ship was at the start okay a amount but as the battle would rage on the difference would quickly become less and less until the 12 guns ship just out DPS the total amount the 1 guns ship could case in combat.

  • @The_Hussar
    @The_Hussar 10 місяців тому

    I was about to write a question regarding the paradrop in Germany but by the time I was finished typing it was already gone...

  • @timucintarakc2281
    @timucintarakc2281 10 місяців тому

    this is the question that should have been answered!

  • @Maiq-TheLiar
    @Maiq-TheLiar 10 місяців тому +2

    i have two video idees i'd like to see
    1 a video on comat width and more spicifically min maxinng deffensive or all prupose infantry as it's not something i have really seen even tho combat width matters more now (doctrine)
    2 testing mass assult with the support company changes of AAT to entrenchment and HP stack with large inf block cuz of the smaller inf cobatwith and bayonet strength

    • @counterfactualgaming
      @counterfactualgaming  10 місяців тому

      Oh, sounds like someone wants to see just how far the Soviets can push MA, HP buff from HOSP, and some other stuff.

  • @fred5763
    @fred5763 10 місяців тому +3

    Roughly how many 35w tank divisions do you end up making in a (lets say major power) game? Or how would you determine whether you need more or have enough?

    • @counterfactualgaming
      @counterfactualgaming  10 місяців тому +3

      Good question.
      The cheaper you go with tanks, the more you can have (obviously). My general goal as Germany is no less than 10 for Barbarossa, but depending on the cost and goals of the game, I can get up to 20.
      For the Soviets, the question is highly dependent on whether you want to secure the Stalin Line with Space Marines. More space marines means fewer T-34s rolling in 1941.
      For the UK and France, I will have few by 1939. For Britain in particular, air power is so important I may have none until 1940. For France, I may have none until 1940 simply because I'm defending the extended Maginot with heavy TD space marines.
      The US should enter the war with 4 if you are playing well, but this might change if you want to focus on the Pacific.

    • @fred5763
      @fred5763 10 місяців тому +1

      Thanks @@counterfactualgaming !

    • @counterfactualgaming
      @counterfactualgaming  10 місяців тому +1

      @@fred5763You are quite welcome!

  • @FlyingOktober
    @FlyingOktober 10 місяців тому

    This is what I felt was true but it is so tempting to just make a glass cannon that you just never get the feeling that it is worth it. As it turns out, fuel drums may be the greatest weapon you can put on a tank under poor supply conditions.

    • @counterfactualgaming
      @counterfactualgaming  10 місяців тому +1

      My hypothesis going in to this video was that extra fuel drums would be roughly comparable in damage output. I was surprised at how much extra fuel capacity you can "milk" them for.

    • @FlyingOktober
      @FlyingOktober 10 місяців тому

      @@counterfactualgaming Yeah for real. I tended to use them when playing countries in jungle terrain most typically or out on the steppes where I know that logistical countermeasure would be crucial but this is a real eye-opener for sure. Another note is that I kind of hate just adding double trucks. Idk what it is but it just doesn't feel realistic to say double the trucks and suddenly supply is not an issue. Something about it just seems kinda cheesy and I feel like paradox could've been a bit more creative with additional tiers of supply vehicles.

    • @counterfactualgaming
      @counterfactualgaming  10 місяців тому

      @@FlyingOktober There's a joke in there somewhere.
      :Count Dooku voice:
      "Twice the trucks, double the attrition losses!"
      Doesn't really roll off the tongue, does it? I'll workshop it some more. 🤣

  • @Trifler500
    @Trifler500 10 місяців тому +2

    Would you say using at least one fuel drum makes sense on all tanks?

    • @counterfactualgaming
      @counterfactualgaming  10 місяців тому +3

      That might make a good rule of thumb for most players. But let me make clear that the worse the expected supply situation, the more fuel drums you will want.

    • @astrobeno
      @astrobeno 2 місяці тому +1

      add fuel on cheap and weak tanks (light tanks, flame tanks, flakpanzers), use guns/armor on medium tanks, spg

  • @JasonWolfeYT
    @JasonWolfeYT 10 місяців тому

    I hate secondary cannons because they cost so much for how little soft attack they provide. Why not just use armor modules? Not getting pierced will get you more damage more often than the minor gains from those mini cannons.

    • @counterfactualgaming
      @counterfactualgaming  10 місяців тому +1

      I don't disagree in principle, but there are economies of scale in terms of soft attack that players with a lot of skill can achieve thanks to stacking modifiers. And the flip side is that getting enough armor to beat the AI may not require extra armor from modules. Maybe I should do a video that goes the other way and shows all the ways you can stack attack to absurd levels.

    • @floridaman4073
      @floridaman4073 10 місяців тому

      I agree to a point. In single player, once you get good mediums you don’t need sloped armor and a bunch of frills tbh. Just pump out moderately priced mediums for the mass tank assualt or use the ic to dump into your af. Fuel drums on an AA in your main template. Fuel drums on flamers and a high velocity LT recon and your set.

  • @CheefCoach
    @CheefCoach 10 місяців тому

    I find that T 34 AM to expensive, to much unreliable, and with armor that is a bit of lacking, or having it to much.
    What I usually wants from my tanks is to be cheap, to have 90% or more reliability, and 60 armor for '38 variant and 120 armor for '43 variant. I used them in 10 inf, 2 med tanks divisions.

    • @counterfactualgaming
      @counterfactualgaming  10 місяців тому

      Yeah, that T-34 AM is basically the "expensive tank" from my last video. Cheap tanks have real value in the game. But stacking soft attack works for a lot of players.

  • @jaxkommish
    @jaxkommish 10 місяців тому +2

    Thanks!

  • @taylorcasale680
    @taylorcasale680 4 місяці тому

    What’s happening with the SU?

  • @martinmoraga2220
    @martinmoraga2220 10 місяців тому

    air power also is important, no air and no fuel is totally a disaster

    • @acsimark
      @acsimark 10 місяців тому

      do not agree, you can make, (beside using logistics "trucks" without fuel.) You need a commando general with -50% CAS damage (also fieldmarshal) then you can make marine divisons, use the commander trait for 240 hour marine supply,(also for fieldmarshal) 120 hour + you can catch another 24 hour in spec doctrine marine and airborne , then you can either go grandBP and get 15% lower supply consuption +24h supply grace or go deep battle and get -20% supply consuption +48h supply grace (i prefer the last one) thats 19 days of supply, imagine how long you can penetrate the enemy lines without the need of fuel and supply or guns with scavenger and maintenance.
      For Support company, logistics, maintenance, engineer, recon AA

    • @floridaman4073
      @floridaman4073 10 місяців тому

      Actually it is very possible to not use AirPower, not advised, but definitely not impossible.

  • @endzor
    @endzor 10 місяців тому

    without watching: no, just fill ur light recon tank and medium flame tank with fuel drums and maybe 1 blaze dozer for each one (forgot the name of +1 entrenchment thing).

    • @floridaman4073
      @floridaman4073 10 місяців тому

      This is the most common and effective way in order to save your MBT for pure punishers. I use a high velocity cannon LT as recon, flame tank both with lots of fuel, also add a medium AA with fuel drums in the main template and have my MBT as punishers. My support is Arty, LT recon, an engineer maint and lodgy. The amount of fuel that template carries will carry the unit for 3+ days without resupply.

  • @jkgzjhp1705
    @jkgzjhp1705 10 місяців тому

    you should not be using tanks in long battle they should be used for short engagements

    • @floridaman4073
      @floridaman4073 10 місяців тому +1

      That’s not how they are practically used in a modern battle space. My unit had a 3 day ongoing battle where we stopped for resupply only. Longest 3 days of my life tbh. We could have gone longer but the armistice was signed. Gulf War, the shortest high intensity action I saw.

  • @aomsinzana
    @aomsinzana 10 місяців тому

    Diablo II intro 😂😂😂

    • @counterfactualgaming
      @counterfactualgaming  10 місяців тому +1

      True story: In the rough cut of this video, I had the "player getting hit by monsters sound" from Diablo spliced into the attacks I ran to test combat endurance. It was funny, but the audio levels didn't quite work for me, so I cut them out.
      But just imagine a game of HOI4 with that sound playing every time divisions initiate combat... during Barbarossa.

  • @bp9696
    @bp9696 10 місяців тому

    summarize the video to 10mins and itll probably improve your stats

  • @Ema6835
    @Ema6835 7 місяців тому

    Very cool video but please don't show data in that weird way with strange fonts and images of people ahaha, it's very confusing.

  • @justanotherthrowaway6136
    @justanotherthrowaway6136 9 місяців тому

    34:32 to skip all the nonsense