Identity Politics Debate: John McWhorter & Michael Eric Dyson
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- Опубліковано 13 гру 2020
- The public and pundits alike are still processing the most recent election, but this much we know: 2020 marks the most diverse Congress in American history, and President Trump garnered more minority voters in 2020 than in 2016. As Georgia faces two runoff elections, which will determine which party controls the Senate, gubernatorial nominee Stacey Abrams and other voting-rights advocates have focused on identity politics as a way to prevail in the electoral process. Is it a winning strategy? Two experts on race and identity in America sit with Intelligence Squared host and moderator John Donvan to debate.
Arguing “YES” is Michael Eric Dyson, an author, New York Times contributing opinion writer, contributing editor of The New Republic, and professor of Sociology at Vanderbilt University.
Arguing "NO" is John McWhorter, an author, host of Lexicon Valley, contributing writer at The Atlantic, and professor of Linguistics at Columbia University
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Dyson is a terrible communicator. He’s insufferably pretentious and prefers word count to clarity.
Even his name has more words than is necessary.
Reminds me of Stephen A Smith
Brilliant! 100% true!
You're just a mean mad white man.
That’s the idea. You spend so much time trying to piece together insensible word salads he spews, he’s on to the next topic.
John McWhorter simplifies complex ideas. Michael Eric Dyson confounds simplistic ideas.
Nicely said 👍🏼
Exactly. One is a heavyweight and one is a total poseur. Also, John is a total class act, while Dyson comes off as a prick.
I'm afraid this is strictly accurate
He spent five minutes of his opening statement just to say “what I am saying is.....”
Making everything he just said worthless. 😂
Dyson is a leftist. Nuff said.
Moderator: What time is it?
Michael Eric Dyson: To address our culture's current notion of time vis a vis the black person's existence entails examining the conception of how black people's history is understood in contrast to the predicate of identity politics which is a sine qua non of the white hegemony that constitutes the backdrop of a racial constitution unlike any other in the individual's modern sense of the reality of our cosmic temporal narrative.
Very good! This gave me a laugh, thank you.
Only wish you’d somehow fit the word “rubric” in there. ;-)
Ah, satire, my favorite microaggression®. Well done!
Hilarious
I'll be more direct, Dyson is a r***rd.
LMAO
Dyson is a caricature of a man trying to sound smarter than he is.
It's painful to listen to.
Mean old white man.
Exactly
Exactly. I think he's modeled himself after Oswald Bates from In Living Color. ua-cam.com/video/ruRYa5KLVNU/v-deo.html&ab_channel=MannySluggz
@@archstanton3430 I just watched that. I’m dying! 😂
John McWhorter: Clear, concise arguments.
Michael Eric Dyson: * puts a dictionary in a blender, sets blender to frappe *
True that! Never has a human said so much to say so little.
Dyson uses too many synonyms, thus showing off. He is articulate
@@usx06240 Being overtly wordy isn't articulate. Illustrating your point as efficiently as possible is being articulate.
Dyson is very, if not overly articulate. Jordan Peterson is much more concise and equally articulate. I don't agree on more than half of Dyson's points, though he is thought provoking and cannot be ignored. Strip the linguistic rapier and much of what he says is vapid jingoism.
@@drewmalesky9869 I agree, though this time I found him to be less obtuse than previous occasions. His word salad was tighter, though still excessive.
This is why kendi won’t debate Coleman Hughes.
I suspect this is mostly true. I think the other part is that Kendi makes a ton of money and has no need to risk anything -- sad as that is.
Kendi needs to stay in his bubble so can’t debate anyone. #safespace
@@Ahabite Absolutely correct. Why would Kendi debate Coleman Hughes, a calm, level-headed, rational thinker, when he could stand on a podium, brow beat white people, watch them genuflect to him, and make millions of dollars while doing it. Why show that he's an intellectual smooth-brain and risk his reputation by stepping in the ring with a brilliant kid who's barely graduate college.
@@willpower3317 Oh WOW! I didn't know it was that lucrative for non... Celebrity (?) activists. No wonder if reinforced from all sides.
I actually dont think Coleman would be Good in a debate ( to the average person), his delivery is to slow and he has a tendency to get talked over. He would win on actual points bit to the average person, he would look like he got pushed around.
The incoherence of Michael Eric Dyson is jaw dropping.
It's like listening to a bag of popcorn.
Despite this, McWhorter is able to explain back to him what he's saying perfectly. Dyson has no clue and doesn't care what McWhorter says
I saw this comment before I started and thought you were just being an internet jerk.
But you are 100% correct. I can't watch this. He's trying so hard to sound smart it's just gobblydegook.
he's the deepak chopra of identity politics. word salad and almost no substance. mcwhorter is simultaneously more articulate and better reasoned by a factor of 10.
I also admire McWhorter’s personal style. When contradicting a point, he’s more apt to say, “I don’t see how...” or “I haven’t observed.” Deflating Dyson’s sweeping generalizations with humble observations.
So you genuinely can't comprehend an opposing view point to your own. And, you want to brag about that???
"Those who know that they are profound strive for clarity. Those who would like to seem profound to the crowd strive for obscurity" - Friedrich Nietzsche
david Icaza
A neat quip, but Nietzsche was hardly a paragon of wisdom himself.
(1st Corinthians 1:20-21)
'Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age?
Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world in its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.'
is this why i scratch my head when Dyson is talking?
@@marcusonesimus3400 "the world in its wisdom did not come to know God" This is what happens when the human mind is educated to rely upon evidence instead of faith in the word given by another man.
@@mickg3738
You betray absolute ignorance of the historical context surrounding the quote, or the pertinent factual EVIDENCE. All you have done is to demonstrate the TRUTH of the Biblical statement. You are a perfect demonstration of its validity.
You claim to see perfectly while blindfolded. Well, you have your own particular species of faith. Why will you not admit it? It would hurt your pride to do so.
Your sort has been a danger to human civilization for the past 200 years. Your ideology and the pursuit of useful scientific knowledge are not necessarily connected.
hello@@marcusonesimus3400 I am afraid that you have cast me into a "sort" that I do not belong. I am an atheist and holding this stance does not involve faith or pride or an ideology. I am pro-1st amendment and not anti-religious; though I disagree with some of the beliefs and practices of the various religions. Claiming that my disbelief in God validates the Biblical claim that disbelievers lack wisdom is a logical fallacy known as circular reasoning.
To truly know me in your world is to know that I am a prophet. Your antagonism and defensiveness was highly predictable. Have a "blessed" day ;^D
John is such a smart dude. Dyson just got good at sounding smart but if you scratch under the surface, has no depth.
@Chester Jeffrey Dyson, is that you? If not, why did you copy and paste this same comment onto every comment here (due to all being critical of Dyson)
@@bizarro20daves Chester is either highly delusional or is just very sarcastic.
It is probably the latter.
It seem your just looking for someone to validate your beliefs.
Yes. Brings to mind a favorite quote of mine:
“They muddy the water, to make it seem deep.” -Nietzsche
He has depth, it's just filled to overflowing with BS.
Dyson comes across like a snake oil salesman who used to be a preacher. His verbosity and prose only obscure the shallow points he is making. The problems are not just stylistic, but also factual: nearly everything he said about Rittenhouse, for instance, was incorrect, and its framing was all wrong. I cannot help but take him to be a charlatan.
so true
I don't think his verbosity really obscures his shallow points, it emphasizes them.
He is a poor man's Cornel West - another progressive preacher-rhetorician but someone who actually has a deeper analysis of the world, however flawed if may be.
@@ottolehto i don't see a deeper understanding from him
@@robinsss Well, I am no fan of West's policy prescriptions, but he has e.g. defended free speech against cancel culture, which shows some understanding of the need for a deeper debate: www.insidehighered.com/news/2017/03/16/ideological-odd-couple-robert-george-and-cornel-west-issue-joint-statement-against
Nietzsche put it best when he said,
"Those who know that they are profound strive for clarity. Those who would like to seem profound to the crowd strive for obscurity. For the crowd believes that if it cannot see to the bottom of something it must be profound. It is so timid and dislikes going into the water."
Thank you for that quote. It’s a new one to me and now one of my favorites.👍🏼
a bit rich coming from *that* guy, eh? lol
@@gurpchirp You have to think there might be a bit of projection in his statement, right? haha
Yes!
"They muddy the water, to make it seem deep." -Friedrich Nietzsche
@@AntonDoesMusic what i meant is nietzche is some of the most complicated shit i've ever tried to read in my life.
Michael Eric Dyson reminds me of a parody of a black intellectual that Damon Wayans did on In Living Color.
He takes about 10 convoluted sentences to make a point, if he even has one.
LOL! Glad somebody else saw this.
Lol 😂😂😂😂👍🏿👍🏿👍🏿👍🏿👍🏿
Haaaaaaaaa YES
I found it!
ua-cam.com/video/71xxvp5R9hE/v-deo.html
Oswald Bates. I think of that character every time I hear Dyson speak.
ua-cam.com/video/ruRYa5KLVNU/v-deo.html
Michael Dyson is such a silly fraud and impossible to take serious. John McWhorter is a genuine genius.
@Chester Jeffrey Chester??? More like Jester. You must be joking.
@Chester Jeffrey Ah I see you're a full time troll, not just a hobby
@@toma4794 seems like it lol. All trolls need a home.
John is a classy guy. Very heady and high-brow, without being tacky and over-priced, like a typical Dyson.
@@twodogs3868 exactly. Well said
I'm so impressed by Michael Eric Dyson! That someone could make THAT comfortable a living (he's worth $9 mil) off being a grifter who says so much NOTHING is astounding!
Con-artists often do get rich off their con until it's up. His con is racism which is just a human condition so the sky is the limit.
Michael Eric Dyson still to this date holds the worlds record for talking the most and saying absolutely nothing.
John McWhorter: relatable, logical, moral clarity
Michael Eric Dyson: vindictive, obfuscatory, citcuital... word salad
Dyson’s constant “uh”-ing indicates a man struggling to form his next thought and find his next 10-cent word.
Vindictive? Where? Also, when did he obfuscate?
@@machsimillian14 every time he spoke with word salad
@@NoNameNo.5 it's not obfuscation if he addresses the question or point being made. Obfuscation is never actually addressing the issue at hand, being purposely deceitful. The word salad used words with purpose, each one addresses the point.
@@machsimillian14 yes, I think it’s clear we disagree on that
McWhorter's intelligence squared needs a logarithmic graph.
Dyson's intelligence squared is still zero.
Dyson tiene la mente media tostada.
@@PatsYanks09 la parte que le queda
This is a smart insult lol
Mcwhorter demolished his opponent in this debate.
@Jesse R I sure hope that was sarcasm....lol.
@@RealityHijacked Yeah he said exactly the same thing about Ibrahm Kendri on another vid.lol
@@andrewjoyner4133 Oh, nice lol
he did not
No he didn’t they both basically made sound arguments
No contest. Dyson likes to hear himself talk.
Adam Carolla said about the Tom Cruise meltdown the other day: "He had 10 minutes of energy in his belly but only 30 seconds of ideas in his head." Thats Mike Dyson...
People discount Carolla nowadays, but he has these turns of phrase sometimes that hit like a sledgehammer.
@@redredred1 hits like hammer, by those made of egg shells??? William F. Buckley was a main voice of the conservative movement and people rose to the challenge of his linguistic style. Milk toast is easier to digest, but it's MILK TOAST.
I just wasted one hour of my life. Correction, the +half hour spent listening to Dyson....
I appreciate that John doesn’t only offer criticism, but proposes tangible solutions.
"John, I think what I hear from Michael" is a common experience for anyone trying to make sense of Dyson's pointless blather.
Lol
McWhorter = complex thoughts in simple terms
Dyson = Simple thoughts in complex terms
you're simple
I wouldn't call Dyson's ideas simple, they are more confusing and nonsensical.
Correct some people want to believe that Dyson is not smart he’s very smart but in my opinion he talks too much for the average person.
Tom Anderson = Nonsnense thoughts in nonsense terms.
We get it Dyson! You can read. But can you debate?
I’ll answer for him. No. Say lots of big words? Definitely. But debate, no.
Debate with a word master?NOPE
I think the young Dyson's oratorical flourish won heavy praise at grade school speech competitions--and he enjoyed the judges' approval so much that he decided to talk like that all the time.
Because “articulate.”
The amount of time needed to explain the meaning of identity, tell you everything you need to know about how these gentlemen debate.
Direct/precise vs. incoherent rambling
When John Mcwhorter says these opinions aren’t just held by whites he’s right because I’m Mexican and I can’t stand identity politics and there a lot of people like me
I am Mexican and live in Canada, I hate identity politics too
Haha Yee, my wife is Mexican and more conservative than me!
I agree, because I live in Southern california, and identity politics have literally destroyed this once beautifully multicultural city, with nothing but Brown face people from the South of the border, those damn liberals have literally destroyed Los angeles. I can't even walk down to San Fernando valley anymore without thinking that I'm in tj. Those damn liberals who are sitting around here with all their identity politics and diversity in their sanctuary cities, allowing people who have no business here living here you're right!
Dyson: “Let me say this very briefly.” Oh sure.
I’ll take “Verbosity” for 800 please
Michael Eric Dyson takes 20 minutes to say NOTHING.
John McWhorter is like a magnificent wrecking ball. He just smashes through Dyson's arguments.
“The great philosopher Beyoncé Knowles”
Wait. Is this the Babylon Bee?
That’s MED hackneyed attempt at humor
He's been using that line for a long time, regurgitating the same sermon over and over.
I used to be a huge fan until I found real black intellectuals like John Mcwhorter and Glenn Lowry
@@Dwadedragon lol for you to discount He intellect only means you were looking for an echo chamber.
@@LiquidSoul06 yeah me listening to him for years means that I discount his intellect? Wrong, that's an assumption you've projected onto me.
MED is a very smart and accomplished man, it's a shame that the ideology/pathology he espouses is so poor and surface level, lacking a bases in the nuance of reality.
High IQ and intellegence doesn't equal wisdom, it only means that he's better at rationalizing his irrational pathology.
The truth is when I listened to MED I was in an echo chamber. He was telling me exactly what I wanted to hear, I was a victim, weak willed, lost, blaming others for my circumstances.
Encountering the ideas of John McWhorter, Glenn Lowry, Thomas Sowell, Shelby Steel, Coleman Hughes (I could go on) shook the foundation of what I believed to be true. Causing me to do deep research and discover my own voice and my truth.
Ripping out the root of victim mentality, and planting the seed of *victor mentality* in my mind and heart.
@@Dwadedragon dude, seriously...this guy Dyson been a joke since the 80s. If anybody is married to an ideology, that aint smart. Its stupid. Dyson is stupid.
As a young man searching for answers I actually looked up to Michael Eric Dyson back in the day. Something never felt quite right about him, but I ignored it.
Nah Dyson is very intelligent. Just overly wordy. He's a professor. Lol he's not a fake snake oil type. The man is actually a Professor are a respectable university. Don't repeat what everyone says about a person. Use your own Brain.
@@Ken-iu2zp you have to be smart to convince a large swath of people that snake oil is the cure for cancer. Just because you are intelligent and were able to convince a university to let you be part of their club does not mean you have good ideas or solutions to a problem. I wish I had Mr Dysons vocabulary but I pray that more people will begin giving the Mcwhorters of the world a larger voice in these discussions.
One problem I have with Dyson is that he sounds like the stereotypical academic intellectual: sarcastic, polysyllabic, full of jargon, angry--a lot of style and emotion but not much substance. He took it too far with Jordan Peterson and got rebutted off the stage.
John: non academics don’t care and don’t like it when we talk like this.
Michael: I’ll show them how much they hate it....give me 5 min.
Michael Eric Dyson is not clear, not concise, and often not coherent. John McWhorter is clear, concise, and coherent-and correct. Another difference is that John doesn't have to cloak anything in the cadence of preacherly flourish and priestly syntax to distract like Michael does.
Propping up a poor idea w/ verbal chaos & absurd semantics.
Dyson is so hard to listen to
The most accurate thing ever said about Michael Eric Dyson was said by Candace Owens: "You're just using big words to say nothing."
I think two great lies we have told the African American community are that a) whiteness exists as an existential homogeneous force, and b) they have no influence over it. Not only is whiteness not homogeneous, non-white cultural influence has significant impact on the American sense of self and wider culture.
John McWhorter is truly a great linguists. He's able to use simple words to convey complex arguments.
Michael Eric Dyson, on the other hand, is a great word-count speaker. Using more words than necessary to say simple things.
does MED even know what he's talking about? It sounds like he is just stringing words together with no point.
Yup. I'm not sure wtf he said lol
it was a good debate. enjoyed both. if you didn't understand dyson, you don't to deem him as just string words together. these are professors whose job is not to dumb down things. we have enough of that. it's your jobs to use write down and google when it becomes to complicated for you. that's how intellectualism works.
@@ahmadmansurGPS or perhaps Dyson is just non sensical?
@@Dan16673 perhaps
we use to have a Prime Minister in the U.K called Neil Kinnock[lasted a year].He was called the Welsh Windbag. I actuality think it is 'learning disability', because he uses 1000 words while a good communicator would use 50 to make a point.
Without the victim card, Dyson would be lost in discussion.
"systemic racism" is a great excuse for failure, but it just doesn't account for success, like michael eric dyson and the thousands of other black millionaires, mayors, police chiefs, authors, politicians, presidents,celebrities, athletes, intellectuals. etc. It is NOT the jim crow south anymore, we have all moved on , why doesnt Dr. Dyson.??
@@blove142 because this is how he makes his living. It is that simple. I have relatives who make a healthy income spewing this garbage.
@@blove142 funny, so many studies suggesting that it exists. Guess all those intellectuals are pushing victim narratives also. What about the millionaires who still get discriminated against and still face prejudice based on their skin color? Many of them say that it exists, are they lying also?
@@machsimillian14 yes
Back in the 90's, Michael Eric Dyson was amusing to listen to. Now, he just sounds like a word salad with spoiled dressing. After hearing from others on this subject such as Glen Loury, Coleman Hughes, etc in recent times....I can no longer stomach Michael Eric Dyson's half-assed platform of never ending victim hood.
"I am afraid that there is a certain class of race-problem solvers who don't want the patient to get well, because as long as the disease holds out they have not only an easy means of making a living, but also an easy medium through which to make themselves prominent before the public." Booker T. Washington seeing into the future from the 1800's to call out the M.E.Dysons', Kendis' & Jones of the world.
That's a left wing conspiracy theory. These problems can be solved in 30 years. Family focus should be on education. Educate the parent and the child.
@@hm7563 eh??
22:42 My take away, and why I support McWhorter's position:
1. Stop the war on drugs.
2. Teach reading better.
3. Free contraceptives.
4. Something about college which is probably spot on. I can't tell, I never went to college.
I appreciated the point Professor McWhorter made that white racism DOES NOT stand in the way of black Americans achieving those goals…
Dyson is lucky that wasn't Glenn Loury
Stfu. Cheerleading sounding ass. Who is Glenn Loury other than a former crackhead and woman beater.
We're lucky because neither is terse.
@@ShunyamNiketana LMAO!
I'm a McWhorter partisan but also a fan of Dyson's writings. What stands out starkly here are their divergent styles. McWhorter, never wasting words, cuts to the bone. One would expect a linguist to be enamored of language; McWhorter is, but he's not LISTENING TO HIMSELF. He's just speaking to the issue, cogently and incisively. Dyson, by contrast, is always expending a certain amount of his neural processing power listening to his own unfolding preacherly cadences, seeking not the cogent argument but the mellifluous rhyme. In this way he's massaging the sensibilities of his imputed congregation, seeking the "Tell it, brother!" shouted from the amen corner. But here, there's no congregation, so that focus, that energy, is floundering--slightly, but palpably. Stage this debate before a large, rowdy audience and the energies would flow much differently. Dyson's rhetorical style would score big. Here, though, it just feels as though he's lost in his own sauce.
Normally, I could get onboard with it simply being a stylistic selection issue, yet with Dyson he uses this same style in too many public communications. As a business consultant, I would think the basic lesson of knowing your audience would be a basic skillset of any "intellectual". We all have thoughts and intuitions, but to use vocabular education to simply throw more/different words, metaphors, quotes, etc. at the wall vs to more potently convey meaning, is very revealing.
In the business world, Mike seems stuck on buzz words, or corporate jargon. Something that would catch up to him quickly enough.
Unfortunate and in a certain sense tragicomedic because the (few) good points he does make get drowned in that sauce of his own making. And, as a caricature of the side he represents he presents a huge target - note the almost unanimous withering snark here in the comments.
@Brett M he’s not even a good oratory. Christopher Hitchens is a brilliant orator as is Obama and Malcolm X. Micheal Eric Dyson ways of speaking is unnatural and come across as forced. It’s not effortless and it seems like he’s putting it on
I'm not sure what you mean by "...enamored of language" especially if you use Dyson as an example of someone who is. Dyson certainly is someone who is enamored by hearing himself talk.
Truth.
John McWhorter's list of 4 things that "Black America" needs:
1. Stop the War on Drugs
2. Teach reading better
3. Make long acting reversible contraceptives available for free to all poor women.
4. Get past the idea that a legitimate American goes to 4 years of college - and stress vocation education.
Just because he keeps referencing it.
@22:37
@Historia Antiqua so true
what are we waiting for?
I actually needed this, thank you for helpful neutrality.
@Historia Antiqua EVERY SCHOOL CHILD LEARNS A TRADE BY THE TIME THEY GRADUATE HIGH SCHOOL should be a bumper sticker
Rick Moranis
Amendment to #3 which is applicable to any 'race' or culture:
NO MAN is God's gift to women 'in general'-------------------perhaps only to a specific woman within the bounds of lifelong monogamous fidelity.
5. Listen to John McWhorter REALLY listen & put into action 1-4.
I like Dyson but he obscures his arguments with the subterfuge of 10 dollar words and alliterative prose. Basically he talks a lot but really says nothing. Its almost as if he is talking down to his audience. Sometimes its insulting.
You like Dyson.... really?
@@commandermudpie Yes. I disagree with almost all of his points but I don't dislike him.
Dyson talks like an undergraduate paper that came alive
Wow, Dyson is so clearly preaching a religion.
51:25 George Floyd was saying that he could not breathe before he asked to be put on the ground
Indeed. But it's a convenient reinforcement of a narrative. If it serves the narrative and seems true enough, then it won't get questioned. In fact, none of it will questioned but oh well...
Yes he did.
Correct, but that does not obviate officer's duty to release the stress hold as soon as he was cuffed. I hope we all agree. That said, the it is often difficult to discern real distress vs. Psychological distress. Cops have a tough job. Cell phone crowds make it worse. Without crowd interference, he may have lived.
@@usx06240 he was going to die regardless. He overdosed
@@Lurch685 lol the lies people tell themselves to justify taking a life..
Dyson means well. I know that. But he is so unnecessarily verbose that his arguments are mostly incoherent fancy sounding nonsense
Facts
NO he doesn't!
Actual arguments in syllogistic fashion actually need to stay relatively simple. Premise by premise needs to stay intelligible, so a good conclusion can be reached by anyone reading or listening. He thinks complicated puffy points convince people. They don't. It only convinces people who are pretending to understand, because it sounds smarter than they are. He has been preaching to a choir for so long it seems, he has stopped working to convince people who think.
@@englishspeaker8179 The phenomenon you describe is also an active ingredient in the "success" of the likes of Jordan Peterson, William F Buckley, Cornel West and William Lane Craig. The only ingredient in the latter's case.
Not sure if he means well by calling everyone racist...that is such a powerful word
Dyson: “what do I mean?”
Me: no idea dude
Has Dyson ever heard of this thing called "Europe", you know with all the different peoples?
He thinks white people are a monolith
My thoughts exactly, he might surprised by the whole "no dogs, no Irish" in England back in the day.
Exactly Dyson acts like tribalism or identity politics never existed in "white" societies as if it was invented to subjugate PoC's. You either have to be willfully ignorant or a liar to stake your claims on clear historic and biological falsehoods..
It's probably the primordial soup white people crawled out of before coming to America in his mind. Why learn about the cultures of a place which you hate because of the prevailing skin colour there?
Michael Eric Dyson is incapable of speaking a sentence using 20 words or less.
I would love for his to answer a simple question like:
What time is it?
Without making a speech.
"Well...based on the heliocentric nature of our solar system within our galaxy it is 10:55:07." The shortest I can come up with.
Seems like MED is more concerned with sounding intellectual than making a coherent argument.
Obviously you do not appreciate the temporal relativism via a vis disparities which de facto express themselves concurrent between and among "othered" individuals with non-white and non-parochial or if you will, discordant frames of reference. In other words, in the words of the great philosophers of Chicago, "Does anybody really know what time it is?"
@@usx06240
Nice example of Dyson attempting to be concise.
@Chester Jeffrey ....said no one ever
John McWhorter wants to focus on the material needs of poor blacks. Michael Eric Dyson wants to focus on his own needs: cultural respect from all whites. McWhorter nailed it when he called this idealist. No one has the respect of an entire group. It's a ridiculous thing to advocate for especially when so much could be done for the people who's living conditions could be radically improved through the four pragmatic social reforms McWhorter cites.
Yeah, it's classic constrained vision versus unconstrained vision, a la Thomas So-well (to the extent that Dyson's vision can even be discerned or articulated amid his regurgitated word salad).
@@lordabacu so-well LOL!
@@ThinkClub Was hoping you caught that.
Hypothesis: Vaush pronouncing it that way is a Freudian slip. He says it like "so well" -- as in Thomas speaks "so well" -- because Vaush secretly wants to say that Sowell is "articulate" but knows that's a big no-no.
that joke was less of a reach in my head
Dyson is a self parody. Empty vessel adorned with obfuscation dressed up as intellectual jargon meaning nothing.
Your comment exemplifies your point quite well.
“Can we be a little more terse?” 😆😂😭☠️
If you want to see how well identity politics is useful for the prosperity of the nation, look at Indian politics. It is 100% identity politics right from the beginning of its independence. I'll give you a clue, it's not going too well.
Most interesting remark on the video I've seen. Care to elaborate a bit? I'm very curious.
It's so difficult to listen to Dyson
MED only likes to address external issues about the Black Community while McWhorter addresses the elephant in the room, the internal problems in the Black Community which is for some reason a Taboo!
Dyson just knows words. McWorther knows how to talk.
Such a treat!! Thank you
Amazing how so few people have picked up on the fact that Identity politics has given right-wing activists and influencers the most powerful tool to support their arguements. It is like shooting fish in a barrel. Micheal Dyson's opening gambit was so intellectual, so abstract and so vague. I almost turned the video off. The right wingers and the centrists are winning in politics because the left has lost its capacity to speak in nuts and bolts terms. All this poésie is great for the industrially produced university grade millenial mentality, but for people with real jobs and grass roots concerns, people like Dyson are pissing in the wind.
Agreed! I do like the fact that Bill Maher is working on trying to separate classical liberalism from the woke folks. I don't think the right wingers realize that danger in referring all of the party as such. The hard core activities that are full in are really small in numbers, most of them don't even know much of what the CRT or other philosophical brands are grounded in. The Postmodernism side that is in the left is very much anti liberalism, it's literally written in the doctrines of Postmodernism and same with the neo Marxist. They can't start a new political party so they label themselves as liberal but their philosophy is anti liberalism. This is why it's hard to separate the true liberals from the woke folks, right wingers are using it to their advantage to get votes. There's a radical side to the right wing as well and I don't think a lot people have given it the right attention do to the Trump phenomenon. I think there's a new phenomenon on the far right side and it's something new. Can't put my finger on it yet. But reading a lot on psychology and believe the answer is there.
@@ryanhoffman5477 I suspect a corporate incubation of all the woke stuff. I remember occupy wall st, "we are the 99%" and marching against Monsanto so hard they sold up to lose the name. And now we are all divided over nonsense. For me I first noticed it when I was researching regenerating desert scrub using high volume rapid grazing techniques, (Allan Savoury). We are talking about getting rivers running and regreening dust bowls, incredible work, AND it produces excess food in the form of meat. Amazing. I then fell on some "debunking" of the work, and it was all vegans, and all incredibly agressive. I was shocked, but quickly came to the conclusion (i am a part time permaculture teacher with a high exposure rate to this kind of public) that without industrial agriculture veganism doesn't hold up as an ecological ethic, in fact its very destructive, and if we all eat soya, well we know who wins. The same tendance runs across all the new forms of social justice, its all wonky, doesn't make sense, and plays into corporate hands when you run the simulator to its end game. Of course governments , even right wing governements, will give in to pronouns and toilets, it costs them nothing and makes the SJW class feel like they are winning, when in fact, nothing major or fundemental changes, its pure genius
I've spent 7 years at university with two degrees, I have two books published, and love reading for fun. Dyson is not an intellectual who is flying over the heads of others. It's fluff. Dyson has to use the fluffy language because if he said his points in straight talking terms, his pretentious followers wouldn't be able to defend him. Having worked in good jobs and academic institutions in my experience the ones who know what they are doing are straight talking no matter their political position. The ones who use fluff don't have anything and are trying to dupe others.
Oh my God speak clearly Mike.
Dyson reminds me of Deepak Chopra here, using language and verbosity to dazzle and make his points appear more profound than they really are.
Had the same thought mate
Jorpak Deepityson, William F Buckley, Cornel West, William Lane Craig, Billy Graham - further practitioners of the obfuscatory arts.
@@twntwrs Craig is tremendous, destroyed Christopher Hitchens who I was a great fan of at the time. You have to pay close attention to the logic as he builds it and then ties it back together.
@@design7054 Not sure if trolling or sarcasm. I fear it's the former.
“Maybe if I talk fast enough people will think I’m smart.”
- Eric Dyson
the liberal mirror of a ben shapiro.
Dyson tries very hard to sound smart. McWhorter sounds smart without trying.
Huge difference.
As a Canadian I just remember Dyson going full race bait during the Monk Debate with Jordan Peterson...."you're just a mean white man". He exposed himself as a shallow, one trick pony.....he seems to forget that U.S. racial politics does not export well to all parts of the world. I don't think I'll listen to him anymore.....I gave it a shot but he's got nothing to tell me.
Jordan called him out on that one though, if I remember.
Dyson is so bad at representing his 'side'.
I was sympathetic until he started name-calling Jordan Peterson, helping Peterson greatly. He's a panderer, which is the last thing we need in this time, especially from a public intellectual
Yep he was loving that crowd
He’s definitely not a public intellectual.. this clown earns the honorific of pundit and nothing more.
The real shame of Dyson is that he’s such a tedious thinker. He doesn’t even give the strongest argument for his rather bad ideas.
I bet you don't even know what his argument was? Could you even recognize where John and Mike agreed...they actually did quite a lot.
8:03 "had laid out for them a set of expectations a set of norms a set of ideals a set of practices habits and dispositions..." the word norms was fine. I stopped listening because whenever someone puffs up language, it's because their point is not persuasive in plain speech.
That sums up his entire styles. He’s constantly showcasing his thesaurus skills and thinks it adds substance to the argument. Its purposely long-winded and redundant to coverup the fallacious arguments. He’s hoping you get lost in the weeds.
How has he been allowed to speak anywhere?
Loved it when Dyson said, “let me be brief’, and then rambled on for 5 minutes.😂
Well, you have to understand. 5 minutes is brief for him 😂
I forgot what the question was by the time Dyson finished answering.
Some real questions for Dr. Dyson or anyone who knows: how would you measure the level of progress? How would you know when the struggle to create division has achieved its desired effect?
I think we have to measure progress, not by the time we are in, but by looking through the past. How can we know progress if we only take measure from the brief time we are part of? We would no real basis on which to guage what we've progressed from.
I do think it is much easier to know the success of attempts at division, by looking at what people hold to be Truth. We have a great example of this in our time which should be studied for years: the election of 2020.
There is some 2/3 of the Republican Party which believe Biden is illegitimate as President and the election was stolen. Now, you'll hear many Republicans say "Biden is the President", but what they won't say is "Biden is the legitimate President ".
Political operators were successful in this.
@@michaeleverest3487 do you know how many democrats contested Bush Jr.'s election?
im just here for John McWhorter. been a fan since 2000's
Love listening to John. Too bad he kept getting interrupted by captain wordsalad. 🙄
No surprise to hear that Dyson is a minister. He preaches like Al Sharpton.
Kendi is still ducking Coleman Hughes because of what I heard from these two
John McWhorter: brilliant brain, clear arguments, simple facts and logic, charisma and, mainly, BRAVERY :
he’d better have it as he goes against the major flow.
Michal Eric Dison: words, words, cliches, maybe intelligence, maybe charisma. He doesn’t need brilliance or bravery: he is with the flow.
The presenter: highly professional, encouraging, eloquent, uniting. Thank you very much. Great dialogue. Subscribed to the channel now, looking forward to more podcasts.
,
More constructive then anything on MSM. I'm thrilled that there is a audience interested in a conversation like this. This is something that has to be addressed and a 5 min shouting match between talking heads is not the answer.
I wanted to listen to this debate so bad but every time Dyson speaks he makes my ADHD flare up, plus there's no video.
John McWhorter: Brilliant, philosophical, concise.
Michael Eric Dyson: Would you like to hear how many words I can cram into a thought without actually saying anything meaningful?
Is it still intelligence squared when only one of them seems intelligent?
Mr. Dyson, step away from the thesaurus
btw, the second printing of our toilet paper with dysons face on every sheet should be available by Dec 16th.
Dyson got CRUSHED with logic and raw pragmatism!
How so? You must have not watched the video
@@LiquidSoul06 You must be delusional....
I’m gonna have to listen to this in doses. MED has already done a number on my brain and I’m only 15 proliferous prototuous petricutus pertonomous precipitous preposterous porcupinicous seconds in.
MY SIDES!!!! XDXDXD
You got me!
PORCUPINICOUS
The funniest comment on here lol. He gives a whole word salad just to explain his point.
Porcupinicous. Sweet word
😂😂😂
Someone diagram a Dyson sentence.
"The identity that has been identified as the universal identity." Ah, leftist pontification, that predictably meaningless gobbledygook.
As a Linguist and after listening to Dyson for an hour, McWhorter must have been wondering whether or not his schooling was worth it and if he's really learned anything about language.
Having listened to Mr Dyson on several occasions it's clear that nothing would ever be enough for him.
I gave up, I can't listen to Michael Eric "word salad" Dyson anymore
Michael Eric Dyson needs a new hustle...
Wow...this actually challenged me. McWhorter has good points and I feel like he was more convincing than Dyson. A lot to absorb and think about. Great debate!
I’m impressed that you are willing to think about challenging ideas. Most people have their minds made up, and are impervious to alternative points of view. Good on you. I also try to keep an open mind.
Such a pleasure to hear the concise, clear, understandable, relatable language of John McWhorter rather than the reverse. Could it be because he is a linguist??? No, he's just a person who communicates. Rare these days. .
I think what's missing about this conversation is class
Just from his tone and cadences, Dyson reveals his essential dishonesty and eagerness to convince.