Shermer with John McWhorter-Neoracists Posing as Antiracists & Their Threat to Progressive America
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- Опубліковано 29 вер 2024
- Listen to The Michael Shermer Show # 165 (audio-only):
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In episode 165 of The Michael Shermer Show, Dr. Shermer speaks with John McWhorter about his new online book on how the antiracism movement poses a threat to progressive America. Shermer and McWhorter discuss: antiracism as a religion; the 3 waves of antiracism; the antiracism trinity: Ta-Nehisi Coates, Robin DiAngelo, Ibram X. Kendi; white fragility; Black Lives Matter; systemic racism (incarceration rates, housing, jobs, income, etc.); reparations; George Floyd, Tony Timpa and police violence; the N-word and language as violence; and Third Wave Antiracism catechism.
EPISODE NOTES
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This dialogue was recorded on March 5, 2021 as part of The Michael Shermer Show (formerly Science Salon) presented by The Skeptics Society, in California.
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I first heard John in discussion with Sam Harris and was just hooked on his every word. Looking forward to see and hear more from him. Thank you for having him on.
Do you watch his Blogging Heads with Glen Lourie?
I will listen/read/watch anything involving John McWhorter. He always gives me new perspective
Same!
@Nigel1048 a lot of the time, yes. But McWhorter is very different from me politically so he helps give nuance to a lot of my thinking
John McWhorter, brilliant as usual.
I’d slightly critique his analysis @ minute 42. Differences in crime are predicted somewhat by being poor, but a better (and correlating) predictor is “having grown up poor”; it’s differences in developmental-environment, more so that current-environment, that predict disparate outcomes.
We call poverty a childhood “risk-factor” for a reason; we mean “risk of ... teen pregnancy, prior education outcomes, low income and employment, substance abuse, crime...”.
This has subtle but meaningful implications to his analysis.
Great seeing John McWorther here
The wealth of info in this podcast makes it a more than once listen.
Systemic racism is to sociology what intelligent design is to cosmology. (Or at least seems so.)
I wouldn't say that. Intelligent design is never the case in biological evolution on earth. Systemic racism has happened in human history, from the nazis to jim crow, and still happens in some places in the world today (ethnic minorities in mynamar for example) I can't think of a good metaphor myself though.
And we can't talk about the systemic racism favoring blacks.
And sociology itself is to science what systemic racism is to sociology. So we're talking about a really deep level of bs.
Where are we now, not how it was bad yesterday before we fixed now. Good point, thank you for acknowledging that we have made progress. We need to start from that progress and take the next step. Not bemoan that activists were not born in the 60's to fight the fights that were already addressed now.
1966 welfare is not reparations because that was applied to all americans, regardless of race.
Forcing banks to give loans to inner city communities is, again, not reparations because thats an economic location, not a racial location, so it was applied to all americans within the inner cities regardless of race.
Affirmative action was needed because you need people in power to lobby on your behalf to open doors for you. That is why the integration of the schools failed black children. These children didnt have black teachers advocating for these children. You had racist white teachers and administrators holding the keys to these children's success. This is why black children flourished in black communities and not integrated ones. Until we fire bombed their neighborhoods in Tulsa.
Opinion: Do you think Barak Obama would have been able to be president if his wife and kids didnt virtue signal in their nonverbal ques of culture by adopting white straight hair instead of keeping their kinky black natural curly hair? No, No he wouldnt because american culture views the kinky natural black hair as activist black, not safe white-man's black. The nonverbal ques for a safe cultural identity is to look white in america.
The idea of black america to succeed is based on perfect social ideas gets in the way of attempting good ideas. Dont let the goal of perfection get in the way of actually being able to act on the good. You cant stamp out people being an A$$hole. Can you distinguish between someone being a genuine racist vs someone using race to just be an a$$hole? A$$holes will use race to as a way to cheat when people are looking because their group are authoritarian and get off on people strong arming others just because they can. These a$$holes will also use sex to target women, disabilities to target the disabled, etc. True racists will rig the game even if no one's looking because they genially believe race is the issue.
This talk made me think of one of Ricky Jarvais's jokes at the 2020 golden globes - the one about the in memorium...
"We were going to do an in memorium this year, but when I saw the list of people who have died, it wasn't diverse enough. It just, no, it was mostly white people, and I thought, nah ah, not on my watch. no. maybe next year. let's see what happens."
@ 48:00 madame C J Walker became a millionaire in 1913. Pretty sure not even this guy can deny that racism was the norm, and fairly accepted in america at that time
Is it just poverty, though? I'm thinking of poor Asian communities--say, Vietnamese--and I don't think of violence. Heck, whole countries can be poor without a lot of violence.
Do poor asian communities rely on illegal drug sales? I think it's a bit of a chicken/egg situation here, where violence breeds violence.
@@definitelynotnick2454 You made my point. Selling drugs isn't an intrinsic part of being poor. It needn't be done at all. It's something other than poverty, or at least poverty alone.
Listening to John McWhorter is always refreshing and enlightening.
It's never not.
Love him.
John states the obvious for many people, including whites. Let's be honest.
John McWhorter is the teacher that everybody wishes they had.
Absolutely!
John McWhorter, whom I greatly admire and respect, is a man of immense intellect and integrity. TY for interviewing him. Would love for you to interview Chloe Valdary about her Theory of Enchantment program.
She deserves more airplay.
Thanks for the tip.
"They're performing and everyone knows it. In a way, they're speaking in tongues."
Great content.
That is the BEST line I've EVER heard!... perfect!!!
I am a Christian and knew people that saw a “Devil behind every doorknob”. A single variable explanation for everything.
Ryan Wiley That’s when you pull an egg from behind their ear.
BLM has been called CBLM... certain black lives matter.
John’s economy of words, and general command of the English language, allows him to really drive a point home. He has an amazing ability to convey complex ideas in a way that is easily digestible for laypeople, such as myself.
Theory: Almost everybody falls in love with John McWhorter the first time they hear him speak.
I confirm, I heard John McWhorter for the first time 2 months ago. In love instantly
Almost.
@Vlasko60 What are you talking about ? They're not transphobes ! They are worried that a teacher could say to a boy that he could "choose" to be a girl based on his personality traits/choice of games.
You don't "choose" to be transgender/transsexual. You experience gender dysphoria that makes living in your own body a painful experience because you feel like you should have been born in the body of the other sex. Personality traits, taste, etc. have nothing to do with your gender/should have nothing to do with your gender/sex, and THAT's what teachers should teach to children (ie., you can be a boy and like dancing, pink, and Frozen).
How is that kind of thinking transphobia ?
@Vlasko, Ionly just started watching the interview so cant speak for the supposed transphobic remark but going by the other commenter if it is to do with protecting kids from being encouraged to be trans then I would recommend watching videos by detransitioners and also there was a study done that showed only approx 23% of people persisted in their gender dysphoria after puberty. Meaning atleast 75% of children with trans leanings grow out of it. Also look into the downsides to the medications trans people take and the serious effects on their health.
I used to argue more for the trans side and I'm still supportive of trans people but I was arguing from an uninformed position where I only knew half the story. Gender dysphoria must be a horrible thing to live with. I dont think consciously contributing and encouraging it is a good idea and certainly isnt the place of educationors. That's for parents and mental health professionals do deal with.
well-said.
I think one point is missing: it is about power between people in power that fight over power by virtue signaling using black people.
Like pawns in a game.
They do it with blue collar workers too.
@@soulfuzz368 And the minimum wage last was raised in 2009.
@@Scyllax 2018 where I live but I feel you
Very true, well said.
Till Nikolaus von Heiseler
Definitely. And there is pleasure in the exercise of power.
(James 4:1)
'What is the source of quarrels and conflicts among you? Is not the source your pleasures that wage war in your members?'
But don't forget either, that there are still a substantial number of white folks who enjoy exerting power over black folks. They may think that 'liberty' has gone too far. The image of Mr. Chauvin sitting jauntily on top of Mr. Floyd's corpse is hard to erase. Such incidents provide an excuse which allows black radicalism to flourish.
We see sooo much content where people are simply reacting or “whining” About this neo racist culture, but it usually isn’t too academic. Finally, we have a cogent, coherent, substantive analysis / an alternative path forward. More of this!!! Less reactionaries!
Can't wait to read his book! Been waiting for it.
it's on his substack... just google his name & substack, and 'the elect' articles are numbered as "installment 1", "installment 2", and so on... he's already in the middle of a few books coming out, so he couldn't wait for all that to be done, so he started releasing 'the elect' on his substack
Thanks for your attempts at steelmanning the BLM position, Michael. This made this interview much better than the conversation with Helen Pluckrose
Pluckrose is a genius at tracing the roots of postmodernist trash taking over the academy. But she's also a big-government liberal, so she's out of touch with the NATURE of these state-run institutions, which makes them vulnerable to these kinds of anti-intellectual takeovers.
Just a small point about the "woke" = "religion" metaphor. It would be nice if J.M. would distinguish between "religion" (all the great religious traditions of humanity that have endured for millenia) and "cultic fundamentalist ideologies." Like many atheists, JM doesn't "steel-man" theism. He should consider David Bentley Hart's argument in his book God: Being, Consciousness, Bliss in which God ("the Father") is defined as "Being." And M.S. is mistaken to reduce Christian beliefs to mere story that are not believed (by thinking Christians) to be based on actual historical fact. It is true that many Liberal Protestants and nominal Roman Catholics (like the man referred to in this interview who said "I don't believe this is true, its just part of my faith") view the gospels as merely moral stories (that are not fact-based), but classically orthodox Christians (who are not fundamentalists in that other sense) have always claimed that their faith is based on actual historical events even if they cannot be proven scientifically. Whether they are right or not is a separate matter, but that has always been the orthodox Christian claim....that Jesus was a real historical figure who died on a cross, whose body went missing and was never found because, according to orthodox Christians, he was literally resurrected and appeared to hundreds of people over the course of another 40 days before he ascended to heaven in some mystical manner. That, for what its worth, is what orthodox Christians have always believed. So yes, JM would regard such unprovable things as fairy tales, but that is still different than the "fundamentalist" aspect of the Woke ideology. Not all religion is fundamentalist, although there is overlap.
X1000. I really enjoy listening to JM, but his notion of "religion" seems pretty facile from the way he has talked about it in interviews about "The Elect."
That's why I don't buy the religion metaphor. That can be applied to many ideologies. I think JM is being reactive in his analysis -- which is understandable, since we're _in_ a historic moment, not past it. A better word would be "cult", since it's more encompassing and actually applicable -- we see cultish politics every day.
@@hfbhfb4806 That's probably what it is: he draws the parallels of "religion" and "any ideology" too close for comfort. To me it worked in this argument. But generally it is fair to differentiate the two.
I loved the way Thomas Sowell set Francis Fox Piven straight on the point that she is mistaken on how black people think
link?
@@Xr3737 Look for "firing line" playlist.
If I even suggest to some of the people I know to watch this, they will instantly call me racist and right radicalized. It really hurts my feelings when they do that, I even say so to them, which makes them angrier. What is the point of having these ideas and having these conversations if the people who need to hear it will outright refuse on moral grounds?
D Rak
You should not be judged for the crime of investigation, surely. There are many possible reasons for searching out particular viewpoint, including idle curiosity.
However I'm a little suspicious of 'white' folks who praise reputedly 'conservative' black intellectuals to the skies, imaging that their own settled prejudices have been justified. It's instructive to note that McWhorter's views have changed over time. in response to changing social circumstances.
But you cannot 'force' others to hear what you believe they need to hear.
This being Easter Sunday, i wish that everyone in the world knew that Jesus has died for our sins and risen from the dead. This knowledge is essential to human salvation. Yet many want nothing to do with the Gospel--------indeed they consider me a horrible person for talking about it.
Who are the people who need to hear this?
@@godzillamegatron3590
'This' referring to what? Would you like to see impediments to 'free speech' institutionalized on your own terms? Should people consult with you before saying anything? If you don't like what you see, take issue with it or move on.
@@marcusonesimus3400 don't be so sensitive, it is a question.
@@godzillamegatron3590
OK, I see. I'm still not sure to what 'this' refers, whether:
(a) the Gospel message which I brought up, and which everyone should hear for their own good (for reasons which can be explained if you wish);
(b) my caution against 'conservative white folks' taking McWhorter the wrong way,
i.e. to soothe themselves into complacency over African-American anxiety;
(c) McWhorter's own caution against applying a racialist interpretation of history to the question of African-American anxiety.
I may be wrong, but I think McWhorter is targeting fellow black intellectuals first, then fellow-travelers with movements of the BLM type, who are not 'black' but hangers-on.
Does this begin to make sense?
"The oboe plays a minor part in black culture."
it's the b minor
@@gedalyahuwittow9520 until mcwhorter got to that part of his answer, i was trying to figure out what the hell piece in b minor (the b minor mass? why single out the oboe there?, the suite in b minor? but that's a flute showcase, etc.) you were talking about.
Unless is it code for something else.
@@9879SigmundS don't be a complete ninnyhammer.
The problem with representation is that it always goes one-way, meaning we don't discuss the "overrepresentation" of blacks in the world of basketball while we urgently need to discuss the lack of black Formula 1 drivers.
And skiers, cyclists, snooker players and darts players.
This is disingenuous. There's a lot of discussion about why black people are overrepresented in some sports.
@@hfbhfb4806 bs
@hfb hfb no there isn't.
I'm White and Gay and I go out into the world everyday and I almost never hear anything homophobic or racist by anyone. What I hear occasionally are sexist remarks by women towards Straight White Men and less frequently the reverse of sexist remarks towards women. The world just isn't that bad anymore.
LOL, thanks for demonstrating the exact point of the video, Concern Troll. Find a new gig, that one was played out years ago.
Ah. Thank you. Your anecdote, random user, is really important and we will all adjust our opinions according to your subjective impression of the world.
Because the rest of us never go out and have our own experiences. 🙄
Thank you , John McWarter, for your brave, independent, very deep and factual thinking. Always inspiring and educational to listen to you. Taking lots of notice, learning to live up to your level of honesty and objectivity. Thank you 🙏 .
Some people are concerned about mining for racism anywhere they can and some people are engineering ways to save the species from climate change and building infrastructure in impoverished countries, making vaccines, feeding kids etc.
Just the difference between those two types of person says alot I believe.
The problem is that the wokies and the people trying to do science are being manipulated to support the same politicians and their racist policies.
I was the one who sent the three emails that day about Tony. And I've been communicating with Tony's mom and I gave Tony's mom the contact information for John McWhorter
Thank you Erik for what you and Bret are doing too! We need more of this discussion. And I am looking forward to April 1st....
@@robertwynkoop7112 Eric Weinstein is spelled eriC not eriK.
@@RumpR0aster of course you are right and I am inattentive to detail.... ooops!
@@robertwynkoop7112 no you are right. I am Erik Weinstein spelled with a k. You have me confused with the guy from evergreen State university's brother. We have the same name
Sadly, I think NPR writer is treating the issue the way an American social scientist would approach it in our day. The "social sciences" are extremely "woke" and has been for years.
54:12 The Chris Rock reference in question can be found on UA-cam under "how not to get your ass kicked by the police". Absolutely f'in hilarious short from his sketch comedy show back in the early 2000's. IMO, it hasn't only aged well, but has actually gotten funnier as the absurdities of the BLM narrative on police violence have emerged into the mainstream.
Ibram X. Kendi and other woksters won't debate McWhorter or Shermer because they are winning without having to debate.
54:12 Reference to Chris Rock's - How not to get your ass kicked by the Police "cause everybody knows if the cops have to chase you they're bringing an ass whooping with them"
30:10 - not just religion, but fundamentalist cult like religion. Not all faiths are blind followers that believe/ obey/ follow w/o any critical thought or questioning.
The question would then be how do they give themselves license to do that.. The texts do not give any wiggle room. It believe or burn. Period. Thank goodness they are all false.
Black proud boys: currently numbering at roughly 300 so far
just saying
Yes, interesting that Michael “the great skeptic”Shermer appears to accept as fact the propagandist premise that Proud Boys are a racist group.
@@deniseb8290 shermer is just another elitist that only reads CNN / MSNBC... it's best to diversify your news, there's a lot of independent journalist on yt.. shermer prolly doesnt know Proud Boys chairman is POC lol
Imo the proud boys have some issues but the only real thing worth picking at with them is gavin mcginnis, whose no longer involved I think. It's not even that I disagree with him, but some of his takes on gender relations are a little to absolute, and can give some the impression that he has fascistic ideals.
I want to add that I have found that there is lots to learn from people who think differently from me. I am a christian and a right winger. I learned lots listening to two atheist liberals talk. I find it interesting that just because you don't agree on everything does not mean that you can't learn new things from them. I was once guilty of ideological bigotry, over the past few years I think that I have mostly overcame that.
Yessss, love John McWhorter!
1:02 and John hits his trifecta of nemesis Ibrahim, Coates, and Hannah-jones. 🤣😂
I once looked around my dentist's waiting room, and (gasp!) it did NOT mirror the racial/ethnic breakdown of the country. I guess it must mean that my dentist is racist.
@sifridbassoon Is the room as big as USA?
I've never heard of this guest until now. What a great mind, I can't wait to get stuck into his books.
I was pulled over and I put my hands on the steering wheel, looked straight forward and waited for the cop to talk. He asked me if I came from a police family. I answered; "Just honorary uncles; my mom dated the sheriff's department." He just laughed and let me go.
I believe that black people need a cohesive cultural system that gives them a sense of authenticity about themselves, then we can bring our collective gift to the collective discourse of the global human family. Like the Japanese have their Buddhist or Indians with their Hindu traditions, black peoples should largely reform our African spiritual systems, use them to cohere our peoples and restore our souls,..., THEN we can be a part of the larger human family eath strength and unity, instead is weakness.
Without something like the above, we black people will always remain subjugated in our minds, blaming others and hoping others will change for our sake. It's never going to happen. We should not try to be like anyone else, but only likeourselves, dark skinned, kinky hair, with our natural bold features that benefit our survival. We need to realize we are enough, and what we possess is all we need to move forward.
We should also be careful not to allow ourselves to be baited with conversations like this one that people are having about their own feelings and apprehensions about our concerns about our future. Freedom begins once we stop caring about what others think of us, but we focus our strengths and collective power on where we are going and how we want our future to be.
Check my podcast with my son ("Positively Perfect", Facebook Live Wednesdays 5:30p PST). It is brand new, and about moving forward. Everyone welcome to benefit fur themselves, who ever you are. We black people are totally responsible for our future. We have enough to move forward. We need to open more banks, financial and educational institutions in order to provide the opportunities we are seeking for urselves. We simply need to start focusing single mindedly inwards to find ourselves and our own goodness and purpose.
Do you do your Podcast on UA-cam?
The Japanese are Shinto, far more so than Buddhist.
@@Egilhelmson Thank you for the clarification. I am not as familiar with the Shinto spiritual system, but I will read more on it. Although I went to many temples when I visited Japan a couple of years ago, I unfortunately did not visit any Shinto group. When I get back there next year, I will make the effort to do so.
Thank you.
great talk... a breath of fresh air... comforting that there are still intelligent people talking out loud...
Just pre-ordered a copy of Nine Nasty Words: English in the Gutter: Then, Now, and Forever. Always excited to see what new things Dr. McWhorter has to say about development of languages; expect that his take on this specific variety of maledicta will be spicy.
Non white is two sylables. People of color is 5 and more obfuscating.
I am an atheist also and I'm worried about what my child is learning. Its been sneaking in and I've had to be on top of what is being taught and actively seek out reources that explain the truth instead of lefty nonsense. I too am exploring Catholic schools however a crazy one in NYC was very woke AND Catholic so it isn't any guarantee.
"Race" is such a bad word for grouping skin color, makes it sound like a competition
25:40 we have a Hitchhikers guide moment, and it goes unacknowledged? Cmon Michael.
25:40-yes, “42” the answer to the great question of life, the universe, and everything!
I'm a racist if I date a black person but I'm a racist if I don't. Is there a third non racist alternative?
Thats a strawman argument.
Nobody gives a f who you specifically date.
Shermer: an Atheist who would prefer to live in a Christian society.
Shermer and McWhorter, two very intelligent people, defeating strawman arguments left and right. And feeling incredibly good about themselves for doing it. 🥱
Hate Is Good
People often dismiss hate as useless, and claim love will heal the world. I disagree with this view. I think that, not only is hate useful, but in certain situations hate is the only appropriate response to a situation.
I think, in certain situations, if you want to unite the world to change it for the better, hate, not love, is most often the appropriate catalyst for doing so. If you want to say or do something that will rouse people to action, say or do something bound to be controversial. Aim to make them hate you, and you will inspire more people to get off their asses and do something then a hundred useless speeches about love and the brotherhood of man. Love, respect, friendship... these things do not unite people as much as a common hatred for something. And, unlike love, hatred is clear, metallic, one-handed and unwavering.
People who hate something passionately usually have one specific goal in mind when it comes to the things they hate: to wipe it from the earth. And they will pursue this goal committedly until that goal is achieved. You can possibly be just as driven by love in the same way that you can by hate, but how many people have rashly declared undying love for a person, only to gradually fall out of love with them? Whatever that number is, it is far greater then the number of people who have declared they hate killing, only to realize they don't. Hate is the surer bet. It lasts longer.
There are a number of things I hate, yes. Racism. Sexism. Homophobia. If the hatred that I have for these things are defects in my character, so be it, I proudly accept these defects. I refuse to love these things, or even extend a loving hand to anyone who is being racist, sexist, or homophobic. Fuck them, and fuck anyone who says I should "look into my heart and try to love them." Fuck love. You can love them if you choose, but as far as these matter are concerned, they do not deserve mine, and they can't have it.
I Hate Political Correctness
I'm sick of political correctness. Instead of being an effective tool against hate speech it just forces decent people to circumvent the truth to avoid sounding racist, sexist or homophobic, while simultaneously making actual racist, sexist, or homophobic people harder to spot, because they aren't as blatantly offensive as they once were. Today, political correctness is nothing more then a shield people use when they are tiered of reality coming along and hurting their feelings.
The problem is that everyone is offended by something. Being politically correct all the time is pointless, because you can't appease everyone. I learned that the hard way this morning, after I had the audacity to call dark skinned individuals "black" instead of using the politically correct term "African American." How can I honestly discuss race relations pertaining to black Americans, without ever calling them black? People born in America are AMERICAN. Not African American. The same goes for every other ancestry. If you were born in America, you are not Mexican American, or Asian American, so why should the rule be changed just for one group of people? Why should blacks get special privileges?
In certain contexts some words are inappropriate, while in some contexts the same words are not. No one word is offensive on it's own. Not even the word nigger, which is much worse then calling someone black. It's not the words you use that matter, it's the intent behind the words that count. Nigger nigger nigger. Does the use of the seem word offensive to you? It shouldn't be. And neither should the word black. If the term "black" is offensive, then referring to me as "white" is equally offence, and you can't say it any more.
From now on, I must always be referred to as Euro American. ...See how stupid that is? It is very common to hear people say, "I'm offended by that" as if it gives them certain rights. It shouldn't. It is nothing more then a whine., and it has no meaning or propose. There is no reason for me to respect that as a phrase. From now on, the next time somebody tells me, "I'm offended by that" unless you are my close friend and I actually care how you feel, my response will be "So fucking what?"
..
BLUE LIVES MATTER!
True statement! I once shared in a certain group, the basic, inarguably true statement that my life and the lives of my loved ones matter more than some rando I've never met, and the cretins exploded: the same fucks complaining about "mean" language called me a psychopath, and that more or less went down smoothly for them.. showing their blind hypocrisy, and slavish unthinking devotion to the cult, wherein saying the correct empty slogans in the the correct order is more important than common sense or true decency.
My favorite part, was
Steve (wo is black)
showing up...having NO IDEA why they were so mad lol
Police lives matter. That is not an earth-shattering revelation, people! (And Black Lives Matter Inc. is disgusting.) Don't be tricked by benign words masking evil groups, and never be afraid to speak simple and obvious truths.
Note: Some crazy bloggers online now say that "African American" is offensive, too.
I Hate The Racism Of Social Justice
The tribalism and anti-liberalism that permeates the identity politics promoted by the regressive left is self-evident to anyone who has been paying attention to the metastatic growth of the contemporary "social justice" movement over the last few years.
While liberalism as a philosophy has always supported things like freedom of speech and expression, civil discussion and the free exchange of ideas, and judging individuals based on their character, not superficial things like skin color or gender, the illiberal left opposes all of these things.
Illiberal leftism has rejected liberalism's tendency to judge individuals as individuals and instead adopted they approach of judging people on the basis of what group they belong to, and race and gender politics.
Social justice extremists have literally redefined what racism is in order to justify their own racism. In their view, their actions are justified as they are a natural response to oppression.
It seems very likely that the rise of the regressive left has resulted in more racial animosity between whites and non-whites. When a person is told, or it is implied, that they are a bad person because of their skin color, sexual orientation, or what not, it is natural for them to start to associate even more with that group- identity based on those characteristics rather than seeing themselves as an individual.
And if you put people into groups based on superficial characteristics and then designate one group (white people) as an oppressor class, members of whom are only successful because of some unearned privilege, and another as the oppressed class (minorities, especially blacks), members of whom are only unsuccessful because their oppressed status, naturally division and hatred between the members of these groups is going emerge. The rise of right-wing populism is thus almost certainly a reaction to left-wing identity politics which paints whites in a negative light.
Instead of fostering a unified society where people see themselves as individuals rather than a part of a particular group, the social justice movement is likely responsible for further dividing people along tribalistic lines. Surely, there are vastly better means to eradicate racism and sexism from society than the identity politics upon which the social justice movement is based.
Clearly and logically stated.
This makes me hopeful!
Questions of race on government forms are probably the most egregious example of structural racism today. Evaluation of the results of such questions are inevitable racist.
Why? Ignoring demographic information in favor of a "colorblind" approach is also racist.
@@hutchison3379
The categories are not scientifically derived, nor do they account for many important nuances of identity. Are Ethiopians and Somalis of the same 'race' as West Africans? No. They are predominantly Hamitic Caucasians, more closely allied with the ancient Egyptians. Are Hispanics a 'race'? Absolutely not; the term refers to linguistic heritage mostly.
No one having healthy eyes is color-blind; have no fear. Yet color is only one among several features which must be examined in order to determine the 'race' of an individual.
As the Bible teaches us, we are all descended from a common pair of ancestors, and through them we all have a share in SIN. So it is very foolish to make qualitative distinctions among people on the basis of 'race'.
Gordon Anderson
I agree. Those questionnaires are based on some very dubious anthropology.
Their apparent purpose is to reinforce silly and artificial categories in the minds of deceived people, who mistake this kind of analysis for truth. If it were not for privacy concerns, a DNA profile would make much more sense. Our ancestral history all the way back to Adam must be encoded in our DNA.
We are all relatives one of another, like it or not.
@@marcusonesimus3400 What does God have to do with this?
The question on those forms is to track companies for discrimination in employment.
My dad once told me "you can never convince a man of anything it's in his financial interest not to understand"... Explains Ibram pretty easily.
assuming that particular man knows where his financial interests are!
McWhorter=click, with a Shermer skeptical thoughts bonus. Excellent!
I've been waiting to see John on Rogan for years now and it's the perfect time with this book coming out - Joe's gang of homies (including Shermer) need to twist his arm 😉
I have a feeling Shermer doesn't really know what the Proud Boys are...
Nor does he know what the “No True Scotsman” (not Irishman) Fallacy is.
Just call them what they are-racists. Or critical racists.
McWhorter is the most honest man in America today. God bless his courage and insight into the truth of how we are being manipulated by our masters.
Don't forget about Thomas Sowell, another voice of objective truth.
@@Malignus68
The adjective 'objective' has a certain cachet among certain folks. It is used to convey approval of an opinion and little else. As for 'truth', what do you mean by that?
'What is truth?' -Pontius Pilate
'I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me.' -JESUS CHRIST, God Incarnate
@@marcusonesimus3400 That figures. LOL
This won't stop until everyone is tiger woods. There will always be sociopaths that see discrimination where it isn't.
I can't believe I'm agreeing with a God hater like Shemer!
Shermer confuses Christians with Jews. He should really stop citing imaginary pastors to make his points
Why don't we fortify the hell out of the bottom economic rung for all backgrounds and be done with the remaining racism?
Kathryn Tate
Sounds good, but how are you going to do it? If you succeed, will your efforts last even one generation? It is not for nothing that Jesus said, 'the poor will always be with you'---------------implying ONGOING responsibility toward them, in all generations. There are no shortcuts. despite the promises of free-marketeers and socialists, each claiming to have the right formula.
China has been credited with creating a vast middle class since their capitalist reforms of the 1980s, but at what price in liberty and even blood (300-plus million abortions, many of them forced)? One can hardly say that their policies are not racist: look at their current efforts to reduce the population of Turkic-speaking Uyghurs, i cluding concentration camps and forced sterilization.
China has many economic interests in Africa, but the Chinese are not known for fraternizing with black folks.
So long as humans are born selfish, there will be racism.
I love listening to McWhorter. His two new books sound right up my street too, so I be happy to support him by picking them up when they are available.
I think ‘Paving with good intentions’ (as in The road to hell is...) could be a good subtitle.
46:00 - I can't help but think that the easily identifiable common factor, ie. class (and Sam Harris has brought this up before), is something that we're trying to hide under identity politics and that a lot of of the billionaire white-knighting is a slight of hand.
carbon 479
I'm not an advocate of 'class warfare', which does not accord with the spirit of the Gospel. Nevertheless you have a fair point IMO. The Left, while scrambling about for viable causes, has come to mirror the far Right in its preoccupation with racial, religious, and sexual identity.
But the 'billionaire class' are not jnvulnerable.
(James 5:1) 'Come now, you rich, weep and howl for the miseries which are coming upon you. Your riches have rotted, and your garments have become moth-eaten.'
@@marcusonesimus3400 I'm probably somewhere in with Bret and Eric Weinstein that markets are great at telling us how to do things but really poor for telling us what we have to do - unless we're up for perpetual Darwinian arms-races to the bottom. This is part of why I've liked the idea of things like GameB, shots at something like 'anthropic' or 'human-centered' capitalism, ie. if it's just markets running everything it goes out toward oligopoly, neofeudalism, and culture gets broken by people being raised to be perfect mercenaries. It seems like anything taken to extremes or as an unabated good is thick-headed.
@@carbon1479
Correct; such extremism is a consequence of deifying human ideology.
Since advanced capitalism is the prevailing model globally, the only viable option would be to 'humanize' it. I'm no economist, but I am a consumer of goods, services, and news, therefore not completely detached from reality.
Shortly before the pandemic I heard interviews with convincing advocates for 'ethical capitalism', yet the concept dates back to the 1890s at least.
Will the pandemic reinforce in the long term public appetite for bureaucratic and technocratic management? That is my question.
@@marcusonesimus3400 I'm trying to keep up with John Gray's articles in the New Statesman. I know he was suggesting last April that the pandemic would be the end of hyperglobalism and that there wouldn't be any rewind back the way we came simply because the cultural evolutionary dynamics would prevent it. This is where it's a really tough call - almost any direction has either/or outcomes, a lot of them (like rising fascism as a fix to economic woes) would be incredibly unpleasant. Not sure what to say on the future other than I'm hoping that doing well with what I do (programming) and trying to share higher quality information with people than the crap I see on MSM is my part at extending the bulwark of more creative ideas and instincts.
@@carbon1479
What conscious contribution can a person make after all, beyond pursuing what one regards as one's calling? As we are told:
(James 4:14) 'Yet you do not know what the next day will be like. You are just a vapor that appears for a little while and vanishes away.'
I agree that pushback against the hubris and excess of globalism produced some very unsavory fruit, in the guise of xenophobic and hubris-filled nationalisms (plural, for there are many of them). It doesn't help when the generation which fought ww2 is almost gone, or when history is not so much taught as mined for ideological nuggets.
This was amazing! Also love how it ended, “Thank you for your work...and your friendship.” 😊
1:13:21 All non-religious atheists in 2021: "We can deal with God-stuff later, just keep the Woke-stuff out of it" (schools)
If I voiced anything like what John McWhortor said, I’d lose almost all of my friends. I think this is the reality a lot of us live in.
It's an interesting debate. With the issue of 'redlining' and, as John puts it, being no longer legal, a case could be made that, for instance, most wealth is a result of inheritance ( your parents offer up a down payment as a result of their equity, or help with college costs) , people of color havent had that same legacy ownership that most others have currently. Something to consider.
McWhorter speaks a lot of heresies -- in a good way.
People are starting to come up with some very clever and hilarious mockery of the woke folk and I take that as a sign that the pendulum has reached the height of it's swing, and while it may be hanging in the air, but it is poised to fall at any moment.
I'm pretty sure people would rather have good jobs and good schools and would leave the outrage to others.
Shermer missed the 42 Joke.
The routine and systemic affirmation of unhealthy thoughts and unquestioned perspectives is training people to accept individual feelings as factual without any critical evaluation, which cannot end well.
well said
Yep. More than six years of calling out this generation of racialized SJWs, BLMrs, and other woke cultists has taught me that if you ask them how or why they believe their ridiculous claims, they can never give reasons in any way connected to empirical reality, nor will they accept it--that is, if they answer at all, which they don't more than 90% of the time in my experience. The truth is, the same as with all religious fundamentalists, they can't provide credible reasons for their beliefs.
@@williammorrison6311 beacuse having someone getting killed on video out weights data sets on a graph .
Love this. Thank you -
What a cool guy! I like him!
8:45 when he talks about 'people who consider themselves the saviors of black people are actually hurting blacks' it reminds me of Walter Williams 'Good Intentions' video on YT.
There’s nothing weird about a black proud boy. The head of the proud boys is Afro-Cuban.
🤣
Shermer is a good guy, but his interviewing skills... well... could use some work. I sincerely admire McWhorter. I’m a big fan of Bloggingheads and I’m reading “The Elect” in Substack
Perhaps you can show us how to? Do you have UA-cam channel where we can learn interview techniques?
Helluva guest. Thanks Michael.
I feel the same way about feminist academia's narratives about men.
Ive been following *The Elect* by John ... Much appreciated John ... You are doing the hard work for everyone else's benefit
It’s NOT training...it’s perception of AUTHORITY...their perception gives them the RIGHT, In every instance whether black or white suspect...
I used to support BLM back in the Trayvon/Mike Brown era. The era I guess no one else was paying attention to because very few people remember the BLM sniper in Dallas who acted as a book end to that era when he was *BLOWN UP BY A ROBOT* after killing like 9 cops and refusing to negotiate with a white cop (HOW DOES NO ONE REMEMBER THIS?).
But one day, while I was still a supporter, I saw a little factoid on Facebook that said something like “blacks make up 14% of America but are 24% of people killed by cops, END RACISM NOW!”. And I was lit up by this data point. To that moment I didn’t know we had that kind of data collected in America. So, I started digging in to everything I could find on the subject of race, policing, crime, interacial crime, police shootings etc.
and *nothing has made me oppose BLM more than knowing the basic facts that show BLM to be a kind of mythology that is almost perfectly inverted from reality.*
Since BLM presents this idea that black people are under a real present threat from the violence of racist whites/cops. I’ve made my own factoid, based on an amalgamation of various data points and here it is.
Black Americans (14% of pop) kill more white Americans (60% of pop) than whites + cops kill blacks combined.
Blacks unjustly kill more cops every year we have good data for, than cops unjustly kill blacks. Which is made much much worse when you realize there are like +50x more black Americans than there are cops.
Every data point of fact or study I can find, shows that black Americans are not the victims, but are the *Victimizers!*
It’s just that the media and activists don’t focus on the victims of blacks violence even 1/1000th as much as they do the victims of white/cop violence. Giving people the exact inverse perception of reality.
Also, of all black Americans killed by another human annually, blacks unjustly killed by cops makes up literally less than 0.01%. Meaning BLM is centered around ignoring the literal 99.99% of “black lives” which do not fit their narrative of black victimization and white racism. And ironically, even the cases they do cherry pick out of the fray, are never actually proven to be racist. The racism is simply assumed because of the race of the people involved. It’s as if they imagine there is no circumstance where a white cop can kill a blacks person, and it NOT BE RACISM. That’s blasphemy in their mythos.
LOVE McWhorter, can't wait for the book. I'll say though: not just black people but ALL Americans need an end to the vicious and counter productive war on drugs and ALL need access to long term contraception. D.A., J.D. (atty-writer) NYC
The discussion about woke-ism harming the community it's supposed to help should address the increases in crime, including homicide, that occur when the police are weakened by (1) defunding; (2) a general atmosphere of hostility and moral condemnation directed at the police; (3) pattern and practice investigations coupled with viral videos (the subject of a paper by Roland Fryer); and (4) the imposition of severe restrictions on the tactics available to police during demonstrations/riots. (we saw this implemented in Seattle in 2020 to terrible effect, leading to the CHAZ/CHOP nonsense).
McWhorter: "That's not in the history books. There's not a movie about it..." Ok, Koch-fundee. It's been a half century of woke historians
I am with John.
How come MIT gives free courses (ocw)and you,Sabine & all other u-tuber seling courses for great courses-may be money.
Prof.Dr Nasir Fazal Cambridge USA
Great 👍 conversation- went to substack and subscribed! So much to digest
I love Shermer and McWhorter but they miss the point. I get the impression from comments that some White people feel validated when a Black person pushes back on the idea of systemic racism. I’m Black and I don’t care for the idea of White Fragility because I don’t blame any specific person and I cringe at the idea of a person blaming themselves, but this truly is systemic. The analogy about “why aren’t there more Black astrophysicist” doesn’t have anything to do with some KKK department head holding Black people back; no, it’s more consistent with the idea that most of us don’t have to worry that we won’t fit into a car when we buy one because we are average height (between 5’ and 6’). But the people who are 7’ actually have a difficult time with this, but I bet no one here cares on a daily basis, nor do I. It is the privilege to NOT have to worry about the difficulty that is systemic. I don’t hate very tall people, nor do you; but still our society is not designed for 7’7” people (clothes, cars, airplanes, doorways, and so on).
Great conversation. But I will have to disagree with you about the Jesus quotes. You haven't read Christian Apologist. Check out William Lane Craig.
Is he saying welfare for black people is reparation?
Why do you feel you have to throw trans people under the bus? It seemed so ill informed, un-nuanced and gratuitous within this context.
Respecting people's identities, even if you're unfamiliar with what creates them is usually a good default position. You can say you don't understand without denigrating.
Just found your channel and immediately wished it was called the Michael Shermer Showmer. Obviously the Michael Showalter Showalter spoiled me.
Great find here. A shermer show is a fucking great idea. Instantly subbed.
Michael I don't know how you could read all those lefty antiracist books without vomiting. I know its necessary but everytime I read things like that I'm aggravated because it doesn't make sense. Its illogical.
I completely understand the comparison to religion here in the sense of a collective myth which binds people in group belonging with a common language that signals membership of an 'elect,' and that blinds the group from critical argument that would undermine their position. I just don't think that is a necessary feature of 'religion' as such, and it frustrates me that that particular 'myth' about religion is being perpetuated by this discourse. In my view, theism, defined as some sort of metaphysical realism, is a very tenable and rational position. But I guess that's a rather oblique criticism of an otherwise interesting and helpful conversation about the so-called progressives.