I'm an indie hacker shipping products, my latest project will be with Elixir/Phoenix and so far I'm very happy with this decision. And now you are shipping more great content. Awesome timing!
Have you guys tried Ash Framework for Elixir/Phoenix? It allows for craaazzzzzzy fast app/feature/permissions/all of it. Ash has been a game changer for me. Insanely fast dev cycles blows my miiiiind.
I agree with you man, I was studying Go and one of the things that made me give up was that you had to do everything from zero. It's cool to learn and do small projects, but as someone who wants to ship stuff fast when I saw phoenix it was a breeze of fresh air. Also really cool seeing BR Devs thriving :D
Go is great for learning backend and for systems programming, but when it comes to building complex web apps, that's when Rails or Phoenix shines. And thanks, tamo junto! 🇧🇷
While I mostly agree with your point, it is a bit overdramatic and could be more nuanced. Changing ORMs? Not that likely. Things like Prisma have been okay for a couple of years and will be a good choice for the coming years. Change form validation libs? Not that likely. Using a form validation library at all isn't all that necessary. Update caching? Maybe, if you want 'bleeding edge'. If you don't need the most sophisticated stuff (which you also don't get with things like Django), you update it once every few years at most. Updating your framework? Obviously you need to do that with Phoenix, Django etc. as well. While I agree that updating things like Next.js needs to happen somewhat more often, that is the 'disadvantage' of using tech that is more willing to change to explore possibly better options. Discussing libs all day is hopefully an exaggeration as that seems a bit silly. You choose a framework and important libs (ORM, state management etc.) once and don't fall into the trap of looking at slightly more shiny things if your previous lib choices are still fine and fit the job well. Then you get just get along with adding the new features.
Hey Daniel, agree with you on the batteries included frameworks. in the JavaScript ecosystem there is AdonisJS which is similar to Laravel. Currently I am using NextJS maybe for my next project i will try Adonis. BTW Ruby and PHP are languages that i can't seem to love and use, the syntax is weird (coming from Java) typescript is not bad in my honest opinion.
Are the options in Phoenix good tho? In React if you dont like an option, you have alternatives, and if you like it, you dont need to discuss changing, even if its old or abandoned
I was about to say "where's Laravel??" (because it's not in the thumbnail) but then I saw it in the first frame of the video... And you can also use React/Vue with Laravel as well using Inertia (works for Laravel and Rails), or Laravext (Laravel only), not need to use the blade template engine.
Would you have the same concerns about Express JS as you do with Next and React? Even though it is still JS, it doesn't look like it has all the crazy updates, even though the same issue with deprecated middleware packages exist. I plan on switching over to a batteries-included framework, saw your Adonis video, but I feel it's just better for me to powerthrough learning backend with JS and then switch over to something else. Would really love your opinion on this. Loving your videos.
I relate with that a lot. But I'd rather have compared something like SlimPhp vs Laravel or Express vs Nest. Also I feel like people are unnecessarily afraid of MPAs. You most often don't need a full SPA software. Or you might even have more than one SPAs laid in multiple pages. I find Svelte a good choice for that.
Please consider doing a look/dive into Ash for Phoenix! It really is remarkable. It’s essentially a DSL that allows for much more minimal code that will in turn create normal elixir functions for the entire app, AND you can escape hatch, turn it off, or even never use it again if Ash ever gets scrapped. Ash very very very much aligns with a One and Done, well supported stack to use in conjunction with Phoenix, that does all the stuff that Phoenix does not - super deep policies/multi tenant/optimizes data reads/anything else that Phoenix doesn’t cover and the remainder of features that SaaS typically use. It really is magical :)
I agree but kind of disagree. It depends on your project and how well established your business is. For indie hackers and solo-penuers, you're right these frameworks are very good. However, at some point there will be an issue you will face because of your chosen framework's restrictions. Most often is because of the ORM limitations. Like all things in software dev, it's about picking the right tool for the job. I'm language agnostic and I will use a different language/framework if it helps me get things done More efficiently but I do prefer less batteries included if I can. I don't like the JS/TS ecosystem you essentially have to install a lot of libraries to get things done
Agree 100%. I might be biased, but I think Phoenix provides a good balance between having batteries included and giving you the freedom to customize it
@DanielBergholz I haven't looked at phoenix yet so I'll take your word on it. I wanted to ask, why go with phoenix over something like laravel or spring. It seems a bit too niche?
@@zeer0629 this is more of a personal preference. I love functional programming and LiveView (the frontend framework from Phoenix) is very similar to React
If you were discussing Next vs Remix, and now you are shipping features, these features may suck. You were at position of discussing Next vs Remix because there is where you fit in a real world company. Batteries included are good for indie hacker devs which will most likely ship a full stack product in 3 months and get 0 users.
I'm an indie hacker shipping products, my latest project will be with Elixir/Phoenix and so far I'm very happy with this decision. And now you are shipping more great content. Awesome timing!
@@quintenkamphuis this is awesome! We need more entrepreneurs using Elixir 🚀
Have you guys tried Ash Framework for Elixir/Phoenix? It allows for craaazzzzzzy fast app/feature/permissions/all of it. Ash has been a game changer for me. Insanely fast dev cycles blows my miiiiind.
I agree with you man, I was studying Go and one of the things that made me give up was that you had to do everything from zero. It's cool to learn and do small projects, but as someone who wants to ship stuff fast when I saw phoenix it was a breeze of fresh air.
Also really cool seeing BR Devs thriving :D
Go is great for learning backend and for systems programming, but when it comes to building complex web apps, that's when Rails or Phoenix shines. And thanks, tamo junto! 🇧🇷
Laravel is the most "batteries included" framework I've worked with. It has everything.
While I mostly agree with your point, it is a bit overdramatic and could be more nuanced. Changing ORMs? Not that likely. Things like Prisma have been okay for a couple of years and will be a good choice for the coming years. Change form validation libs? Not that likely. Using a form validation library at all isn't all that necessary. Update caching? Maybe, if you want 'bleeding edge'. If you don't need the most sophisticated stuff (which you also don't get with things like Django), you update it once every few years at most. Updating your framework? Obviously you need to do that with Phoenix, Django etc. as well. While I agree that updating things like Next.js needs to happen somewhat more often, that is the 'disadvantage' of using tech that is more willing to change to explore possibly better options. Discussing libs all day is hopefully an exaggeration as that seems a bit silly. You choose a framework and important libs (ORM, state management etc.) once and don't fall into the trap of looking at slightly more shiny things if your previous lib choices are still fine and fit the job well. Then you get just get along with adding the new features.
Hey Daniel, agree with you on the batteries included frameworks. in the JavaScript ecosystem there is AdonisJS which is similar to Laravel. Currently I am using NextJS maybe for my next project i will try Adonis. BTW Ruby and PHP are languages that i can't seem to love and use, the syntax is weird (coming from Java) typescript is not bad in my honest opinion.
Indeed. I'm currently using AdonisJS with react (via inertiaJS) and it's the 🐐
I couldn't agree more. BTW: AdonisJS is the GOAT in the JS world
it's sad that I'm just hearing about AdonisJS. Must be my algo because all I hear about is Next, Remix, and Apollo
Are the options in Phoenix good tho?
In React if you dont like an option, you have alternatives, and if you like it, you dont need to discuss changing, even if its old or abandoned
I was about to say "where's Laravel??" (because it's not in the thumbnail) but then I saw it in the first frame of the video... And you can also use React/Vue with Laravel as well using Inertia (works for Laravel and Rails), or Laravext (Laravel only), not need to use the blade template engine.
Laravel is amazing, and extremely flexible with Inertia
Would you have the same concerns about Express JS as you do with Next and React? Even though it is still JS, it doesn't look like it has all the crazy updates, even though the same issue with deprecated middleware packages exist. I plan on switching over to a batteries-included framework, saw your Adonis video, but I feel it's just better for me to powerthrough learning backend with JS and then switch over to something else. Would really love your opinion on this. Loving your videos.
Express is not a framework, it's a library.
@@oserodal2702 i didn't say it was.
Vc tá muito destravado no ingles 👏
Tamo junto!
I relate with that a lot. But I'd rather have compared something like SlimPhp vs Laravel or Express vs Nest.
Also I feel like people are unnecessarily afraid of MPAs.
You most often don't need a full SPA software.
Or you might even have more than one SPAs laid in multiple pages. I find Svelte a good choice for that.
Daniel, I watched your video with translation voice by UA-cam AI. the future is great!
Wow, this looks insane! 🔥
PREACH. PHOENIX FTW.
Please consider doing a look/dive into Ash for Phoenix! It really is remarkable. It’s essentially a DSL that allows for much more minimal code that will in turn create normal elixir functions for the entire app, AND you can escape hatch, turn it off, or even never use it again if Ash ever gets scrapped. Ash very very very much aligns with a One and Done, well supported stack to use in conjunction with Phoenix, that does all the stuff that Phoenix does not - super deep policies/multi tenant/optimizes data reads/anything else that Phoenix doesn’t cover and the remainder of features that SaaS typically use. It really is magical :)
I agree but kind of disagree.
It depends on your project and how well established your business is. For indie hackers and solo-penuers, you're right these frameworks are very good.
However, at some point there will be an issue you will face because of your chosen framework's restrictions. Most often is because of the ORM limitations.
Like all things in software dev, it's about picking the right tool for the job. I'm language agnostic and I will use a different language/framework if it helps me get things done More efficiently but I do prefer less batteries included if I can.
I don't like the JS/TS ecosystem you essentially have to install a lot of libraries to get things done
Agree 100%. I might be biased, but I think Phoenix provides a good balance between having batteries included and giving you the freedom to customize it
@DanielBergholz I haven't looked at phoenix yet so I'll take your word on it. I wanted to ask, why go with phoenix over something like laravel or spring. It seems a bit too niche?
@@zeer0629 this is more of a personal preference. I love functional programming and LiveView (the frontend framework from Phoenix) is very similar to React
If you were discussing Next vs Remix, and now you are shipping features, these features may suck.
You were at position of discussing Next vs Remix because there is where you fit in a real world company. Batteries included are good for indie hacker devs which will most likely ship a full stack product in 3 months and get 0 users.