Why most JS devs are junior forever

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  • Опубліковано 9 лют 2025
  • Check my website:
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КОМЕНТАРІ • 89

  • @Metruzanca
    @Metruzanca 2 місяці тому +14

    2:40 - 0% is a bit too pessimistic for me. Theres lots of things that can be taken away from those tools. It might not seem immediate but they're there. Things like hydration for example. Most SSR frameworks do it (if not all). The different ways they handle "server actions" (re: your other video too). Theres also things that you can learn from the dev tools of a framework.
    Most skills, like knowing that you need to write "use server" in this function because otherwise shit blows up, yeah you're right. I hate those too. But those bad memories will help you write better code or give you the knowledge to be able to say "we should avoid these frameworks because xyz reasons when I worked on abc"... odds are you won't remember much from that time but those bad experiences will keep important parts of it alive.
    Not sure if that made sense, you tell me.
    EDIT: (I tend to comment way too early on videos, because my attention span is too short). When you then work on backend, you will likely know better how to make a API that is nice to use on the frontend. e.g. at work we've got an established pattern of a query param ?sort=timestamp desc. If you're a FE dev, you probably are looking at that SPACE like shit is that meant to be uri encoded to %20 or +? or similarly if you have a TON blockchain address in the url which includes both + and =. A backend dev will think nothing of it, but a FE that has suffered will know thats going to require manually parsing the url because new URLSearchParams will auto convert + to a space both when re-encoded will become something with a %. These are things that you don't think would translate to backend, they're very browser fuckery based things but they make you think "hey maybe this should be a post method even though this is a "get data" request, since those chars are annoying to process.
    EDIT2: Yeah.... I've implemented a few "frameworks" in vanillajs... so maybe I'm not the target audience kek. (I'm also a backend/desktop dev turned frontend..)

    • @DanielBergholz
      @DanielBergholz  2 місяці тому +4

      @@Metruzanca you’re absolutely correct, 0% is very exaggerated. I think I can keep maybe 20% to 30% of that knowledge, but the main point of the video was pretty much to show my regrets of focusing way too much time on frameworks instead of the web platform. Only recently I learned how to cache an HTML response, because I was too much of a nextjs “expert” to try to understand what’s going on under the hood

    • @DanielBergholz
      @DanielBergholz  2 місяці тому +3

      @@Metruzanca and it’s cool to see how we have different perspectives on this, because you said you’re a backend dev going frontend and I’m the other way around. So to me it feels like I’m only learning the fundamentals right now, and you already have a good understanding of what’s going on. Maybe we should recommend new devs to start with the backend instead? 😅

    • @vijayroy93
      @vijayroy93 2 місяці тому

      I think you both need to Collab and come up with a video where you can show the underhood magics of this frameworks specially NextJS

  • @ThiagoVieira91
    @ThiagoVieira91 2 місяці тому +28

    "Why most devs who always stay in their comfort zone are junior forever"

  • @しめい-l4m
    @しめい-l4m 2 місяці тому +4

    that's why I use Svelte.
    Svelte is just HTML with some sprinkle of reactivity, and Svelte doesn't force you to "learn svelte" except for the first 30 minutes, other than that everything that apply to HTML apply to Svelte

  • @nomagix
    @nomagix 2 місяці тому +5

    I was literally laughing while watching this video because your story reminded me of a similar experience I had. The thing is, some developers never learned the core tech and jumped straight into frameworks-and it’s not entirely their fault.

  • @sjoerdvermeijden
    @sjoerdvermeijden 2 місяці тому +4

    I wish this video was longer, fully agree!

  • @scorpion32
    @scorpion32 2 місяці тому +1

    Really great advice , it's important to know how it works under the hood

  • @mnchabel8402
    @mnchabel8402 2 місяці тому +1

    Swimming in abstraction

  • @devTalks3641
    @devTalks3641 2 місяці тому

    Thanks a lot, that was pretty nice advice, I do appreciate taking your time to share this important knowledge

  • @raghav_1997
    @raghav_1997 Місяць тому

    I can't tell you how much i agree with this. Bravo keep preaching brother!

  • @ruslantsykaliak5455
    @ruslantsykaliak5455 2 місяці тому

    You nailed it! Well done!

  • @IfedolapoAjetunmobi
    @IfedolapoAjetunmobi 2 місяці тому

    Funny how this video really touches the soul…

  • @AkimboFennec
    @AkimboFennec 2 місяці тому +1

    I am a SwiftUI developer. Don’t even know why I am watching this video.

  • @crisuar1989
    @crisuar1989 2 місяці тому +2

    Such a good English bro... is highly appreciated.
    About the “junior forever” hummm... Although you have a valid point, I’d like to add if you’re the kind of dev (person) that likes to go the extra mile whatever they do, they will deepen in frontend development quite enough to “evolve” from that Jr stage.
    To exemplify my concept, your 5 YOE mate who asked for the auth framework, probably is the case when someone is not only a “framework dev” but a mediocre one.

    • @DanielBergholz
      @DanielBergholz  2 місяці тому

      Thanks! And fair point, if you are a good developer, and feel like you only know frameworks, you will for sure have the curiosity to study more about the fundamentals

  • @incarnateTheGreat
    @incarnateTheGreat 2 місяці тому +1

    Summary: study and (try to) master core concepts and technologies. Frameworks are abstractions to help you do the job faster.
    I have been a dev for nearly twenty years, but I have failed to level up as fast I should have. Why? Because of the points in this video. I didnt bother to master the core concepts and technologies and just found work where they told me to use a framework.
    It took me years to catch up, but I'd like to think I'm far better off now than I was before.

    • @DanielBergholz
      @DanielBergholz  2 місяці тому +1

      Better late than never!

    • @incarnateTheGreat
      @incarnateTheGreat 2 місяці тому

      @DanielBergholz of course! And you're right: go full stack if you can to expand your horizons. Certain technologies are core and are useful pretty much everywhere. That's what people pay for.

    • @DanielBergholz
      @DanielBergholz  2 місяці тому +1

      @@incarnateTheGreat I think every web developer should aim to become full stack sometime in their career. You cannot be an expert on just 1 side of the equation forever

    • @incarnateTheGreat
      @incarnateTheGreat 2 місяці тому

      @@DanielBergholz I'm not sure if it's naivety to think that or not. I've actually enjoyed working on backend whenever I can -- mostly because it allows me to connect the project with full understanding rather than just having an API handed to me.
      Everyone always bigs up Python. I worked with Elixr and Phoenix in a previous job. Elixr is pretty powerful. I've also worked with DBs, but that has been rather minimal.

  • @auviic
    @auviic 2 місяці тому +1

    Nice point, im a jr front end engineer and i felt shamed sometimes because i didn't know the fundamentals of web working. Now, im focusing on the fundamentals to be a better web dev

  • @ayoubtahir2116
    @ayoubtahir2116 2 місяці тому

    I work on large scale microservices and clean architecture projects. I have basic knowledge of DevOps and consider myself a junior developer. I think the title should be why many JavaScript developers remain stuck at a beginner level.

  • @arthurbarbosaaa
    @arthurbarbosaaa 2 місяці тому +1

    “Looks like a lot of work, can you recomend me a framework” kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk ri dms

    • @DanielBergholz
      @DanielBergholz  2 місяці тому +2

      @@arthurbarbosaaa kk eae men, manda um framework pa nois que isso da muito trabalho

  • @brainites
    @brainites 2 місяці тому +1

    6:50 Note that job posts specify specific frameworks an individual is supposed to have. I assume he nailed the interview which was based on the framework(s) and landed the job.

  • @teamdroid9834
    @teamdroid9834 2 місяці тому +1

    food for thought vanila keeps winning

  • @dopetag
    @dopetag 2 місяці тому +8

    "Why most JS devs are junior forever" the title is clickbait.
    It should be "Why most devs are junior forever".

    • @DanielBergholz
      @DanielBergholz  2 місяці тому +5

      There is JS in the title because that's the only programming language with a bazillion new frameworks everyday. So it's very common to find a JS dev that is an expert on a framework, but knows nothing about vanilla JS

  • @electric_dream_machine
    @electric_dream_machine 2 місяці тому

    I'm glad I decided to focus on fundamentals rather than framework specifics in my latest studies because it really feels like a sisyphean task to make any sort of progress in mastering frameworks, especially because every job I get seems to focus on a completely different one 😅

    • @Dakappon
      @Dakappon 2 місяці тому

      How are you studying? Books or videos or a traditional school curriculum?

    • @electric_dream_machine
      @electric_dream_machine 2 місяці тому

      @@Dakappon For Node I used a series of videos I found on youtube. For design patterns I used a website called Refactoring Guru which has explanations with tons of diagrams, examples and code snippets that is really awesome for understanding the logic behind each case.

  • @pedroAWEJNF2O
    @pedroAWEJNF2O 2 місяці тому +2

    mano, eu finalmente entendi 100% de um vídeo em inglês caralho, dps de 7 anos tentando

    • @DanielBergholz
      @DanielBergholz  2 місяці тому +1

      @@pedroAWEJNF2O aí sim mano! Parabéns 🚀

  • @Nightlurk
    @Nightlurk 2 місяці тому +1

    The product of the bootcamping and "everyone should learn to code" ideology emergent in the last decade... the "duct-tapers" generation.
    As a dude that learned HTML overnight about 20 years ago, I gotta say I find it very odd when someone refers to "studying" HTML as "deep knowledge", even with the large amount of additions HTML and CSS suffered over the last two decades, it's still very shallow knowledge from my perspective.
    I would much rather recommend studying how CPUs and memory works, how OS executes code on your machine, how compilers take your code and convert it to machine code, how machine code "looks" like, and investigate and understand the MANY layers of abstractions that sit between the basic electric impulse that powers all CPUs and the behavior you model at the very high level with your code.
    That's the starting point for a proper software engineering knowledge and until you acquire a decent grip on that knowledge you cannot consider yourself a software engineer.

  • @thauanandre6535
    @thauanandre6535 2 місяці тому +2

    Eu gosto do seu canal mano, parabens ai
    I enjoy your channel dude, props

  • @yetaldom1587
    @yetaldom1587 Місяць тому

    Im always wondering whats under I've just code, somehow with just 2 to 3 years of JS experience and a few months of C++ I feel annoyed by frameworks... that feeling is the main reason why I start looking into C++ and driver development. Thanks for confirming that Im not trying to escape the annoying feeling of frameworks but actually looking to know and understand how to program

  • @box4soumendu4ever
    @box4soumendu4ever 2 місяці тому +1

    ...so good 🥰🥰explanation and the instructional quality 👍👍🙏🙏bravo 👏👏👏👏

  • @lian1238
    @lian1238 2 місяці тому

    I agree with your points. I think that the year you were born and when you first got into programming also influences your path. For example I got in during the jquery era and around the time Ajax was the next big thing. Imagine, not having to reload the page and dynamically load new data?! Wow. Ground breaking stuff. Learning the basics was a necessity.
    Now, when people start learning, they skip the basics and go straight to FE frameworks, and BE frameworks. With the lure of shiny new frameworks and the addictive social media apps, the current generation must go out of their way to learn the basics.
    That being said, there is nothing wrong with knowing a framework really well. When i started learning react i had no idea what i was doing (still don’t) and really wish i had started learning it way earlier

  • @codelivewithme
    @codelivewithme 2 місяці тому

    front end frameworks always keep changing but back-end look at nest js or express js or fastify they are always stable

  • @parapara7
    @parapara7 2 місяці тому +1

    100% agree

  • @musicplaylist6909
    @musicplaylist6909 2 місяці тому +2

    let me ask you then, lets suppose a junior has only vanilla, html css js skills and are looking into a framework, a front end one. What exactly are these "concepts" that you keep referring to as if they require an entirely sepparte amount of time to learn. Can juniors not just get the intuition, or enough intuition that allows them to actually utilise these frameworks? What are you telling me to actually learn how to implement https in C? or maybe learn how to make my own JSON parser? or learn about sockets using berkley sockets interface in C? Like by fundamental, how low are we talking here, why not go all the way down to process scheduling on a kernel level, oh why not go all the way down to compilers? maybe binary? how "fundamental" do you want juniors to go to here??? Constantly saying learn the fundamentals to a new developer can lead to endless hours of reading, with almost nothing to show for it. Be-careful with the advices that you guys give. Token authentication is NOT deep knowledge, those things are surface level, and can be learn whilst learning a framework, same with useState manual implementations, it doesnt take more than abit of curiosity to search how these things work. I suggest give a more precise and larger list of these concepts. It seem you did not mention anything about needing to know bundlers here either

  • @Cypekeh
    @Cypekeh 2 місяці тому +2

    learning bash, linux and databases is very reusable

  • @nesocode
    @nesocode 2 місяці тому

    That’s why I love Go! I can build great backends without frameworks, but you need to understand how things work.

    • @DanielBergholz
      @DanielBergholz  2 місяці тому

      Go is a great language to learn more about the underlying stuff!

  • @DiogoScarmagnani
    @DiogoScarmagnani 2 місяці тому

    Yesterday I had a problem in my React app that I solved by creating a CustomEvent that is simply dispatched (with the necessary information in `detail` prop) by a child component which will be received by a parent component (and then consumed). Without prop drilling, useRef, useCallback or any other import / lib, just native JavaScript tool. I know there are better solutions, but I had to solve this quick and this way I solved with just Vanilla JavaScript knowledge.

    • @DanielBergholz
      @DanielBergholz  2 місяці тому +1

      I bet most JS developers don't even know what a custom event is 🤣

  • @CanisLatransMedia
    @CanisLatransMedia 2 місяці тому

    And don't forget to switch off auto completion while you learning...🔨

  • @HaoJungHsieh
    @HaoJungHsieh 2 місяці тому +1

    That's a valid point. Unfortunately, we still need to learn both the frameworks and the deep knowledge, right? It would be amazing if we could consistently apply the deep knowledge throughout our entire careers. However, I don't think that's realistic. It's easy for someone like you, who already understands all the frustrating React, Next.js, and Remix stuff, to say that. But for a junior frontend developer, they still have to go through the painful process of learning all of this. They need to know how to use those framework APIs to build features and avoid bugs caused by improper use of the APIs, trying to use deep knowledge for that may just be way too much overkill.

  • @zeer0629
    @zeer0629 2 місяці тому

    To add on to study the backend point. I would advocate to also learn the backend with a language that is not JS/TS

    • @DanielBergholz
      @DanielBergholz  2 місяці тому

      Absolutely! I think it’s a great idea to learn Laravel, Rails or Phoenix

    • @zeer0629
      @zeer0629 2 місяці тому

      ​@@DanielBergholz it depends on where you live.
      For me (UK) "boring" languages like Java and C# are huge in the job market so it doesn't really make much sense to learn something like rails or laravel
      But the underlying message is the same, I would say to frontend devs who are learning the backend, go out of the JS/TS comfort zone when approaching the server

  • @jimbo0o
    @jimbo0o 2 місяці тому

    Do all drivers need to know about the car's engine? Being a senior mechanic or senior driver is just a choice. The world needs both.

    • @IfedolapoAjetunmobi
      @IfedolapoAjetunmobi 2 місяці тому

      The driver you’re talking about in this case is the end users using your software, not the software engineer

  • @dwolrdcojp
    @dwolrdcojp 2 місяці тому

    Ruby on Rails suffers from a lot of the same problems as other frameworks. I was able to build a "full-stack rails" marketplace application with 300 users as a hobbyist. I walked away from that project without knowing basic programming concepts like functions, etc... years later I came back to programming to make it a career and I started with C.

    • @giullianosep
      @giullianosep 2 місяці тому

      I don’t think the framework is to blame in this case, the framework exists to solve a problem, not to teach basic programming to new developers. The developer himself is responsible for understanding what happens behind the scenes.

    • @rmdashrfv
      @rmdashrfv 2 місяці тому

      I agree with @@giullianosep. Starting with a framework is probably fine honestly. Any framework. It's when you spend the next 2+ years doing that full time and you have no idea how things work under the hood, and eventually end up jumping from framework to framework as most JS devs do.

  • @pedrobrasil892
    @pedrobrasil892 2 місяці тому

    This title is a Imposter Syndrome bait... impossible to resist and take a look =D

  • @jeipi6355
    @jeipi6355 2 місяці тому

    Daniel, could you please share us some more of the things to learn that you consider deep knowledge, it would help us beginners so much. If you would show us some for frontend and backend it would be amazing

    • @DanielBergholz
      @DanielBergholz  2 місяці тому

      @@jeipi6355 check TechSchool, I created a playlist of free courses on web development fundamentals:
      techschool.dev/en/bootcamps/fundamentals

  • @codelivewithme
    @codelivewithme 2 місяці тому

    learning core web is only solution

  • @jonashansen2512
    @jonashansen2512 2 місяці тому

    Like everything else in life, shortcuts are really just loans with interest.
    Learn the fundamentals, use, understand and build on the fundamentals. Now you have the depth to assess whether the tradeoffs are really worth it.

  • @joshuauzzell541
    @joshuauzzell541 2 місяці тому

    SO GOOD!!!

  • @iamparmjeetmishra
    @iamparmjeetmishra Місяць тому

    Amazing ...

  • @CSkyGameGen
    @CSkyGameGen 2 місяці тому

    Why would you NOT use a framework, most of the login solutions aren't just an email and a password field. We're talking about social logins, MFA, password reset flow and advanced security features that are already implemented by people who know what they're doing

  • @sheriffderek
    @sheriffderek 2 місяці тому

    I think implementing useState - is still just way too close to the same problem you're describing. Most devs can't even create Array.forEach. With about 10 little concepts, you can build a pretty complex web application with PHP or JS. But even then... you'll be learning the web API and general "Web development" / not really core programming concepts in many ways. And that's it's own "Framework in a way."

  • @cesartalves
    @cesartalves 2 місяці тому

    Most devs are juniors forever period, or worse 😂
    Catchy title

    • @DanielBergholz
      @DanielBergholz  2 місяці тому

      @@cesartalves well, I have to agree 😅

  • @Minolrx
    @Minolrx 2 місяці тому

    It's true most of the time

  • @user-plgmgrs326
    @user-plgmgrs326 2 місяці тому

    i think this is true 😭 C and rust forever

  • @Thr111ce
    @Thr111ce 2 місяці тому +1

    I never really understood the "i need to learn x framework"
    Man, most of the stuff you'll use frequently you can learn in 30 minutes lmao
    Never really worked with Nestjs before my current job and i'm doing fine.
    That was the same with react before my first job with react, the same with php, the same with laravel...
    Tools are tools, you can learn how to use them if you know how to use your hands.

    • @DanielBergholz
      @DanielBergholz  2 місяці тому

      @@Thr111ce exactly! If you know the fundamentals, you can learn any tool in a couple of hours

  • @AllHandsOnEveryThing
    @AllHandsOnEveryThing 2 місяці тому

    By the way, can i quote you on "shallow knowledge"? i am trying to get into this youtube thing too 😂🙏🙏

  • @AllHandsOnEveryThing
    @AllHandsOnEveryThing 2 місяці тому +1

    I think this is not going to get a lot of views like everytime. because what you didnt consider is that "we cope too much". we like to use "work smart not harder" but dont know what it actually means coz we are not working smart here, rather getting our brains dumb😂😂😂😂😂😂 always looking for an easy way out and not a smart way out

  • @P1oN4ik
    @P1oN4ik 2 місяці тому

    WTF? token in localstorage? Are you sure?

  • @DM-pg4iv
    @DM-pg4iv 2 місяці тому +1

    Good advice but a better advice is, stop using JS. For the love of God learn another language Go, Rust, C. The issue with frontvend devs is that they become JS andies. All the know is JS and never expand elsewhere

  • @tryh4rd999
    @tryh4rd999 2 місяці тому

    concordo.

  • @RubinhoBorges
    @RubinhoBorges 2 місяці тому +4

    Fala Daniel, blz?
    Quanto você cobraria pra gente fazer uma call de uns 30 minutos? Gostaria de tirar umas dúvidas com você, se possível. Grande abraço!

  • @cesartalves
    @cesartalves 2 місяці тому

    dude, I could def make a login page with a backend api. can I get my Senior FE dev degree¿ 😅

    • @DanielBergholz
      @DanielBergholz  2 місяці тому +1

      @@cesartalves congrats, you are a senior frontend dev 🎉

  • @HarshDoes
    @HarshDoes 2 місяці тому

    I was thinking the same from past 6 months when I started learning Next.js. I always thought, whether I'm learning programming or am I just learning to use a particular framework that always need to be relearn on every update. And what if this framework dies & something else comes in the market.
    I knew this is wrong. So, I started deep diving in vanilla JS & try to figure out how this things works behind the scene.
    All these frameworks & libraries are too opiniated.

    • @DanielBergholz
      @DanielBergholz  2 місяці тому

      @@HarshDoes I learned this the hard way. I learned multiple JS frameworks that got deprecated or stopped being maintained. After that I always tried focusing on fundamentals whenever possible