I always loved the "Sisko is an engineer" plotline. It was set up right from the pilot, when he was planning to pack in Starfleet and go into civilian construction, but it didn't really sink in with me until he went cuckoo and started building a clock. EDIT "cuckoo" and "building a clock." * sigh * Oh dear.
Honestly, leaving SimCity unpaused is complete immersion fulfilment for me. Every time, I’m like “I’ll only be a minute or two, I’ll leave it running and rack up some extra taxes!“ Then, I come back half an hour later and everything is on fire! :)
I've said it before, and I'll say it agan; the best way to handle the "New Klingons" in "Trials and Tribble-ations" would have been to have Worf walk out looking exactly like all the other Klingons in the original episode and *nobody mention it at all or even seem to notice.*
I thought the obvious solution to that change was to make the TOS Klingons from a different planet within the empire. They were conquered by the Kronos Klingons early on and adapted their culture but with behavioral holdovers from their own.
@@1monki That's how my head canon dealt with the Discovery Klingons: I see them as other factions that are either extinct now, or have become more isolated so we stopped hearing from them. Of course, we all know the real answer: seeing them through sixties glasses!
What a beautiful ship, but come on. That ship is not the best designed "thing" he ever made. The Defiant has a bunch of awesome benefits (small, maneuverable in a way a galaxy class or higher ship can't be, overpowered to the point where if they ever went full throttle it would blow up) but it is a glass cannon. Sisko made some amazing creations over the years, but I wouldn't put my chips on his mods and efforts to design the Defiant. Truly, that logo for the Niners is his best thing. Ever. #Ninersforever
I have mixed feelings about the Defiant. For one thing, the idea of making a ship that is just a pair of engines, a cloaking device, enough shields, and as many guns as you can fit on it, is viscerally appealing to me. But on the other hand, it is very clearly a warship, and Starfleet shouldn't have those.
I've never thought about Sisko as a builder before, but that's a very insightful point. And it's one you can take beyond his cooking and anything he has constructed with his hands. Sisko built the team who reported to him on the station and brought them together. He rebuilt the promenade as a social space for those living on/visiting the station. He helped rebuild the entire station after is was abandoned by the Cardassians. If you think of Sisko in this way, he was the best person to send as commander of Deep Space Nine because he was a builder. I love that new insight into his character.
Thinking about the "old Vulcan proverb", I like to think that Spock is embracing his human side, which just happens to have an incredibly dry sense of humor. And outside of the TOS crew, nobody else ever gets to see that side of him.
Heck I don't think of dry wit as being un-Vulcan, so I think Spock just making a joke fits as much with his human side as his Vulcan. How many of his rejoinders to Bones in TOS would fit as dry wit? So yeah, I've just always assumed Spock and Kirk both knew that it was not an old Vulcan proverb and that Spock was having a bit of fun.
as i have said before, our views on trek differ substantially (i got a drastically different interpretation form picard s3 for example), i will say that your responses here really are the core of why i appreciate 99% of the content you create. its fun and insightful and makes me really think about my own positions. plus you are pretty funny too which is also great.
You know, the way you described how Star Trek 6 wrapped up the Original Series story is exactly how I feel about how season 1 of Prodigy wrapped up - it was a great wrapping up of the characters and their goals for the season, and while I absolutely want to see how they develop under Janeway's command in their search for Chakotay, it still felt like we got a solid ending point for the series. I'm still disappointed that the show was cancelled (and am properly irate about them removing the show from Paramount+) - but I also didn't feel like we NEEDED another season for the series to get a proper ending.
There are people who seem to make hating a tv show their personality & i genuinely can't imagine wasting on my time on something that makes me want to rant endlessly
Welcome to Star Wars fandom. Kathleen Kennedy deserves a lot of criticism, but the kind of hatred directed towards her is uncalled for. By this point it doesn’t matter what she does, a lot of people will hate it because she did it.
you definitely should avoid becoming disabled, because let me tell you how much it sucks to have the entire world so indifferent to your suffering that there is no functional difference between them and the people who DO actually want us dead and there's literally nothing you can do about it other than rant endlessly because waiting to die in legislated poverty gives you nothing else to do.
The explanation I came up with once for Spock claiming Sherlock Holmes was an ancestor, was that Amanda read him the stories as a child and lied to him. In that totally benign, Santa Claus sort of way: Spock was enamored with this highly logical human, and Amanda said “well we’re actually descended from him you know.” And since Spock never interacted with the stories again after he grew up, he never learned that they were actually fictional. But whatever. It’s really just a good little joke.
The only movie ending that really left me feeling the way you described was for Return of the King. There was a moment there while I was completely savoring the experience I just shared in the theater with everyone else where I felt like I never had to watch another movie ever again. Of course eventually that feeling faded and I saw more movies, but for that one moment I felt more satisfied with a well-spun tale than I ever had!
Sisko's nature as an engineer and builder was alluded to with the fact that Defiant was a project he worked on, and his prior posting had been at Utopia Planetia Shipyards where starfleet builds its boats. He also loves to cook, which is another form of building and engineering. I think its safe to say that in an alt universe Sisko might have opted not to go command path and become a Chief Engineer.
19:50 its been bought up a few times in various groups about what kind of careers the captains had before they took on command roles Janeway was explictly a science officer, and I think Sisko was an Engineer at some point for the reasons you mentioned, as well as being a major contributer on The Defiant and happy to get hands on with other engineering projects like the Ore Processing center in Civil Defence.
In the TNG episode where Data and Jiordi first act out Sherlock on screen, Data does say at one point that Moriarty was written by Doyle as the perfect enemy for Holmes. So there is that. They are acting out Doyle’s story and not Watsons recounting.
The simple fact is, as an intellectual property, Sherlock Holmes IS an ancestor of Mr Spock. Holmes is arguably the first example Of a character driven primarily by logic and reason; Spock is perhaps his most important descendant.
If you want to get really twisty you could say Holmes was a real person who had fictional stories written about him, after all it's thought that Conan-doyle based Holmes on one of his professors.
I think sometimes the biggest problems with Story Ends in big franchises, is that those at the top often don't understand the differences between This crew at This time is over and the Characters have more stories to tell. As you said it's what Picard should have been.
If there was ever any doubt, your hilarious deep dive into Sherlock Holmes being Spock’s ancestor proves you are, and always were just as much of a Star Trek nerd as anyone else. If not moreso. Love you Steve!
Jared Harris nailed the belter accent without that being the only part of his character, what a talent. It's a shame they couldn't get the calendars to line up, but with an actor that good he's in high demand
As for consistency, I am reminded of the German (written) SF series Perry Rhodan. It started 1961 and is still running today, putting out a new episode (around 60 pages) every week. Over time, the set of authors keeps changing, but it still works as one long story (and that's ignoring the countless spinoffs/side projects) because they spend a lot of effort keeping everything consistent. (One side project coming out of this effort is an encyclopedia for the series.) These days, they are all over the internet, of course.
First couple seasons were on Sci-Fi, canceled, then bought and brought to 6 seasons by Amazon. Great series. Covers the first 6 books. Still rumors of movies to cover the last 3. One half of James SA Corey (Ty Frank) and one of the stars of the show (Wes Chatham) have a podcast to this day.
It’s just the first 6 books but yeah! It was a SyFy production in its first 3 seasons, trying to recapture the BSG magic, then they cancelled it and Amazon bought the rights and did another 3 seasons. (In HDR with really nice cameras.) As always some characters are merged, some events reordered, etc etc in the adaptation but yeah it’s really good. The visual design, especially a couple seasons in, is so thought-out and cohesive. Almost nothing is just Rule of Cool and I love that. Also its holograms is what early Discovery and Picard aped (thanks to executive meddling about modernity). But The Expanse actually has thought behind the gestures and methodology, while Discovery seemingly went “we’ll make it fit, do whatever with your hands”. Also also, I actually think the way they presented Robomiller was way way cooler than how the book described it. However you get the episodes I think you’re in for a treat!
@@kaitlyn__L cool. I don’t watch a lot of tv, and nothing from Amazon, so that’s how I missed it. I think I’ll do a reread of the books and then check it out!
My theory about why Picard Season 2 was all over the place was because the writers and cast were scrambling to help cover for the late Annie Wersching lack of appearances as she may have been going through cancer treatments during the time of filming and may have taken ill as well. I do give much respect to the Season 2 cast and production team as they went above and beyond to maintain her cover. Again, just my personal theory.
The inability of people to accept that something they enjoy is over is one of the things that drags good stories down the most, in my opinion. We need to learn to embrace closure.
nah, I don't mind endings that much, but I like the idea the heroes of the story are still doing similar things in similar situations even though I don't get to see
Exactly, he even has that line about him and Kirk outliving their usefulness because they're old. "Would that constitute... a joke?" And it works because he is so obviously TELLING a joke, and Nimoy's delivery is perfect.
Something I've wondered about the renaming of the Titan to the Enterprise is that in naval tradition, rechristening a ship is a big deal and generally considered to be bad luck. Like, I'm pretty sure there's a specific set of circumstances and ceremony involved when rechristening a ship. You don't just slap a new name on the hull and take an early day.
I always interpreted the Spock/Sherlock Holmes quote as Spock pulling Saavik's leg. I would argue that Spock seems to become increasingly comfortable with his Human half over the course of the TOS movies. He exaggerates, he jokes, he expresses his affection for Kirk on multiple occasions. After all, there's another Spock quote that he says to Saavik (and which I believe to be a Spock original...) that "Logic is the beginning of wisdom. Not the end." I think the Spock we see post-ST3 is Spock moving "beyond logic" (we see some of it in Wrath of Khan too, of course). We see him moving past logic to tap into the wisdom his Human heritage also offers. Just an additional thought to consider. Love your Trek videos!
I will just add one thing - I really enjoy Ethan Peck's portrayal of Spock in Strange New Worlds. He is able to channel both the Spock of the original series who is trying to be as Vulcan as possible. But Peck also shows us "the cracks" in the armor, the human side that we all know Spock has, and will only become more prominent in his personality as he matures.
As someone who's watching star trek for the first time, I must say the best way is to watch it concurrently with the Ensign's Log podcast, the greatest non-fiction podcast of all, which makes the show even better.
I think what they should have done. Is to have created and “Enterprise Class” of ship. That would have ended the naming but continued the legacy. This is one of the problems with having shows in different times running at the same time without planning. That could have been revealed in Discovery, but Picard could have revealed the reason for it.
Me and my partner have been slowly getting through a couple Star Trek shows and whenever we find an early season one in the TNG era that looks a bit hard to sit through we'll just have fun reading the descriptions. In one for DS9 pretty early in Season 2 we found a character description for Sisko where the writers directly mentioned how they'd just decided to make Sisko "The Builder". I bet it would make them happy to know that after all it was said and done that came across perfectly to the point it could be pointed out without ever being super explicit. His ships, artifacts, and baseball caps add so much to his depth.
When I first got the TNG DVDs (and this seems to apply to Netflix too), it looked like whoever was compiling the descriptions just watched the first scene of each episode.
Speaking of hair and klingons, one of my favorite jokes on the Rifftrax for Star Trek: Generations, was the part where one of the klingons says "I have established a link" and then Mike Nelson says "Between us, and the ancient creature known as Slash!"
Thank you for giving me a reason to snort tea out my nose! Honestly, I'd pay good money to see a Klingon with a classic Les Paul shredding that solo at the end of 'Paradise City'.
I love Ducat and he is the correct choice for Sisko's greatest nemesis, but for the series as a whole I'd honestly say Kai Winn. Someone so self assured in how right they are that they never consider the alternative. She was the kind of Nemesis you love to hate, especially helped by being played by such a wonderful actress in (RIP Louise Fletcher).
I think that not spelling everything out explicitly also results in a stronger fan community because people have things to discuss and share with each other rather than just being given it.
Would love more deep dives on the Expanse, by itself, or even compared to Star Trek to keep with your themes (ya know, cuz you're not busy enough Steve, more Steve Steve! Thank you Steve).
You talking about all the fun little Nicholas Meyer jokes in ST VI reminds me of TOS. I'm rewatching it with a partner, and I'm noticing that by the far side of season 1 the main recurring cast all have a pretty well developed chemistry, and together with the addition of Chekov, I found myself laughing at a few lines here and there. One that sticks out for me is the final ep of S1, Operation: Annihilate. The landing party beams down and a few people rush them with clubs, and after they they're dispatched Kirk exclaims "They tried to brain us" and maybe it's just me but it caught me off guard haha. Anyway the undercurrent of humor is welcome, especially in the common alien of the week episodes of TOS.
Sisko has always been a builder, he arrived at DS9 from Utopia Planitia where he worked on the first generation of borg resistant / response ships. I think though it was never explicitly said on screen that he worked on the defiant project.
32:59 Steve manages to avoid mentioning Lower Decks through this entire section, but I feel like his thoughts can be summarized as an appropriate LD quote made about (Riker's) Titan: "Oh no! It's another Enterprise!"
There is a line that exists between “fan service” and “understanding that these characters all exist in the same franchise, and so of course would be present in certain situations”. I really wish more folks understood that. Because the moment a Tuvok or someone else appears, “It’s just worthless fan service. They could have done it better another way.” Why? Cause you like your sub-groups (individual shows/casts) within a franchise to stay in their respective boxes? Whether you like it or not, Tuvok, and many other characters, simply exist in the franchise. So it makes sense that they will appear in different shows, whether for a single scene, or more if needed. “You can explain anything away with that argument.” Yeah. Cause the f’ing characters exist in this make-believe universe. And they have roles and jobs and relationships that intertwine between shows. It’s like when you’re watching a Marvel movie, and the world is about to end due to the villain of the film, and someone has to ask, “Should we call the Avengers?” And unless there was money in the budget for cameos, the answer is, “They’re off-planet.” And so it becomes a balancing act of is it fan service or does it make sense and serve the characters/story… and ultimately if there is money in the budget. Because like it or not, the Avengers exist in that universe, so of course that’s going to be at the back of the audience’s collective mind.
The fifth element is another sci fi movie where the main villain and hero charcaters never actually meet face to face. It can be a powerful story telling device when done right. Even within star trek, you have st6 and nemesis, both of where the hero meets their villain counterpart, where the former is lauded as anamazing piece of cinema, and the latter less so. There's always a way to improve a story in hindsight, not story is 100% perfect in any one persons eye, it's all about telling a story and each person will interpret it in their own unique way.
Can't decide if I wish a comment of mine to ever be featured. But I'm not half as witty nor half as clever or half as observant to have anything of substance to contribute. btw: The Sisko being a great designer is so subtle , we all forget he helped design the Defiant as well (if I'm not mistaken). ;) Thanks for this video. I do love the comment responses. LLAP and DFTBA. 🖖🖖
The fact that Kirk and Khan don’t have a scene physically together was something I never noticed until pointed out, and they did a great job with it. But that dinner scene with Chang is incredible and shows how yeah, maybe the protagonist and antagonist should have at least one scene on the same planet together (or ship or whatever)
While Dukat was Sisko's nemesis, Major Kira's was Kai Winn. It is quite an interesting detail in their characterization, highlighting the parallels between the pairs.
The way you describe ST:VI in such glowing terms explains so much of your problems with Picard, and to a certain degree with Lower Decks. We've reached the denouement for these series, and told all the stories we need to. And so when the writers go back to the well and continue dredging more, you've already hit the point of diminishing returns.
I don't think renaming another ship to "Enterprise" would have flown with Mr. Roddenberry given his history: as I understand it, renaming a ship is supposed to be bad luck. The Exxon Valdez was renamed at least six times...
Ent G should've been a new "revised Constitution" - and show her reveal as a sister ship 'sailing' out of spacedock beside the repaired Titan. Seven could be the Captain of Ent G, and Rafi the Captain of the Titan.
Eddington gave Sisko permission to later murder the Romulan ambassador to bring them into the Dominion war. I think if he hadnt been the bad guy in their little psycho drama he might not been willing to go with Garrick's plan.
Deep Space Nine's Trials and Tribble-ations had the best solution to the Klingon forehead problem - "Yes, they are Klingons. We do not talk about it with outsiders." Done. Hang that lampshade and keep on walking. No need to ever bring it up again. The only solution that could've been even better is if Worf had suddenly switched to Klassic Klingon while in the past and *no one* noticed, but occasionally made comments about him changing his hairstyle or something similarly silly. It was a comedy episode. Keep it funny.
Putting this at the start in desperate hope Steve'll see this: I fully agree about the Titan name change at the end of Picard S3 - changing the Titan to the Enterprise would be a lot like changing the Enterprise to the Stargazer after Picard did a big important mission early in TNG, to recognize his history with that ship. Can't say I quite agree with Steve on the second Tuvok appearance *but* I will say that's how I felt about the first appearance (which was definitely meant to show "they have no-one they can turn to") and without that first appearance, the second is far less organic (if the end was the only time he appeared, then it'd be pure fan service cameo, but with the first one revealed to be a fake, the second gives us slight closure to that thread without shoving in another unnecessary scene nor relying on the "and everyone was okay" line that does still exist in the episode). That said, I think the performance review from...umm...Todd Stashwick (oh, Captain Shaw, thank you for saying his name, Steve) made no sense, it didn't fit in the timeline of the season, and much as it gives a little closure/catharsis, I didn't like that aspect of the scene.
Overall I liked Picard. Season 3 my biggest problems: Where'd the good borg go? Why have borg at all? That setup was perfect for sticking with changelings or those body snatching aliens from the first season of TNG.
I would love a series exploring why the Klingons' hairstyle changed. BUT ONLY if the characters' makeup constantly switched between TOS, TNG and DIS styles from shot to shot, with no explanation.
I am the Star Trek fan that hated even the idea of the Calvin timeline but I like to consider myself a treky even though technically the differences attract he is someone who just watches, and a checker goes to conventions. I've been to a sci-fi convention, so technically I could consider myself a treker.
Here's another great facet that Sisko-as-engineer brings to light: That aspect of his personality highlights just how good a commander he is, when you see how he interacts with O'Brien. He sees and respects the Chief's expertise. He doesn't micro-manage his decisions as an engineer. He doesn't try to do O'Brien's job, he facilitates it so his subordinate has what he needs as much as possible. Random aside- Sisko-as-Chef also brings out the fact that Sisko-as-Gardener is a thing that exists, and it's never a big deal. Mentioned twice that I can think of, at appropriate moments as part of who he is and then just left to exist.The traitor Eddington waxes rhapsodic about how Sisko grew vegetables for (Thanksgiving?) dinner. Sisko is distraught when he comes home to find Kasidy has taken "My Peppers!" and tried to cook with them, instead burning them to a crisp. And it's just right, it is who Ben Sisko is as much as his role as Emissary.
If you've ever had a really "cool" car or seen one, you're most likely to have addressed it with your friends, so talking about how cool a ship is by the characters to me is just a facet of life that we all have done with something we thought was cool.
Agreed. I know that if I was on the Enterprise (any iteration, really), my non-Enterprise crew friends and family would get so sick of hearing about what a sweet ship I was working/living on. Of course, I also named my best, sleekest, most versatile and heavy-duty sewing machine ever 'Enterprise D', after having been working for years on an ancient machine held together with duct tape, bicycle grease, and hope that was named 'Serenity', so...
I always took the 'Only Nixon could go to China' and the 'Sherlock Holmes ancestor' bit as Spock always being a bit off after the whole dying and getting hit katra back business, some lingering Star Trek 4, or in his own way, he developed his own deadpan humor from the experience.
On not getting past different types of fandom preferences or right/wrong ways of making and enjoying a show: In the real world I am a chef, and my product is up to constant critique. It sucks when you feel stuck in the status quo. I recognize the workers in the pieces of entertainment that I follow, and even if, for example, I consider myself ambivalent towards Lower Decks and I tend to cringe at musicals, I saw how those two episodes of SNW may have greatly appealed to other fans, and showed that Star Trek is still willing after all of these decades to not always take itself seriously and explore frontiers of production. The cast (and I imagine the crew) looked like they had enjoyable experiences. That is arguably as important as the story. I want the people working for my entertainment to do their best, but I also want them to feel free in breaking the mould when it suits the story, or even just when the story needs a break from itself so that I can see my fellow nerds allowing themselves joy on screen that is their workplace.
So, I've got to disagree with the "it's okay to ignore history if it works for the story" take at the start of the video. The main reason is because it's almost almost always avoidable, and if the writer of a series or individual episode can't tell a specific story without breaking established canon, then you have to wonder how hard they're really trying. While I don't necessarily believe it's laziness as the person commented, it could be an honest mistake that is noticed too late to be fixed, but the fact that it's there still distracts from the show. Steve, you even say that if it happens you notice, but if the shows good you move on, but in that moment you are pulled out of the show because rather than tying too points together that gives you a deeper understanding of the narrative, instead you are saying to yourself "wait...that doesn't make sense" and if you break verisimilitude too often, you start feeling that if the writers, directors and producers don't care, why should I. Granted, one or two mistakes/breaks of canon doesn't get you there, but it can happen.
Fan service can be done well, though. Yes, it does have to have good writing underpinning it. But to name a few of my favorite examples: both the "Trials and Tribble-ations" episode of DS9 and the movie Galaxy Quest are absolutely based at least in part on engaging with the fans and following up on ideas like "wouldn't it be fun if the crew of DS9 were there when the stuff in 'Trouble with Tribbles' went down?" or "wouldn't it be awesome if you found out that secretly it's all real and they need your help?" Sometimes fans want things that are (or at least can be, with good writing) good and fun. "The fans don't know what they want and I don't care what they want" is just too strong. Sometimes the fans know what they want and they're right; sometimes the fans know what they want and they're wrong; and sometimes the fans don't know what they want until you give it to them. The goal shouldn't be to always care OR always not care. It should be to have good judgment about it. You're 100% right about Star Trek VI, though. It's the best for sure. Followed by IV, of course.
With respect to the Behr quote about giving the fans what they want: I think there is always a balancing act between "I'm going to give them what they need for a good show" and giving the fans what they want. And it's easy to shift that balance too far one way or the other. Sure, tell a good story first and foremost. Put open flames in the captain's quarters on a starship, since you have all kinds of environmental controls so you can have pretty much as much oxygen as you need. Is a complete redesign of the Klingon makeup and costuming really necessary to tell this story? That and the all-blue starfleet uniforms took me out of the story without adding anything to the story. I think they (the Discovery team) realized by Season Two that, while they had every right to change up the aesthetic of the show for new audiences and to take into account new effects technology and better budgets etc., there is such a thing as taking things too far. Strange New Worlds, in my opinion strikes that balance better than Discovery did.
It might be worth bearing in mind that DS9 may have benefited from being somewhat overlooked (as opposed to overseen) by TPTB (otherwise known as The Idiots in Charge). The writers seem to have been left to do their own thing.
You know, growing up with Star Trek TNG and TOS reruns I sometimes worry that my aversion to newer Star Trek shows like enterprise are rooted in some sort of nostalgia bias or resilience to change, then I realise I also grew up with DS9 what was amazing and voyager which was f*****g s**t and I realise that sometimes Star Trek is just badly written.
I find it strange that in your opinion a "fan service cameo" would have to be explained and integrated into the story in sone major way while tje same show still has random one off side characters
About Sisko being a builder, I’d say that it’s more about him being a designer. I’ll explain: designing is more than just coming up with pretty things. It’s about finding something ‘wrong’ (or at least ‘not optimal’) and laboring to fix it. A *designer* has/needs to seek out imperfection and fix them. If that’s not Sisko’s job after the Cardassians left DS9, I don’t know what it is.
Star Trek: Barbershop -- 7 seasons and a movie during which we finally come to understand and appreciate the critical role that the ancestors of Mott played in shaping the course of the Klingon Empire.
'They' do say 'it' about Sisko. He helped design the Defiant, he is a starship designer, in part. The rest of the examples given 100% flow with that personality, including cooking, but yeah, they say it as well.
My biggest problem with Picard 3 was that the killed off the only really original character, the character that told Picard and Riker "no" not because of some conspiratorial plot, but because he saw through their bullshit. He was the most complex character in the show, he had his flaws and foibles much like most of the characters on DS9. Thats also why I loved those characters, the same reason I loved the character of Barkley. Not because they were the archetypical heroes, but because they were NOT.
Coming from comic books the whole klingons looking different thing is very silly like imagine if people complained that spiderman looked slightly different every time there was a new artist
Having an opinion which goes contrary to the popular consensus is how I survive as a Star Wars fan. It's an argument a friend and I have been having for years. Funnily enough, we broadly agree on Star Trek
The line about the Sisko is a Maker spawned a thought about a Jonathon Larson line: "The Opposite of War is not Peace - it's Creation" which *even further* dovetails into the polar opposition that Dukat and Sisko share.
I would say not caring because it's not relevant to your story is laziness, and while if the show is good, it doesn't matter, lazy writers rarely make compelling stuff, as we've seen with much of the post-ENT content. After a hit and miss but generally enjoyable first season SNW is rapidly going over a cliff in terms of doing anything creative, interesting or enjoyable. Most of the pitches that have been put in production are lazy rehashes of existing failed pitches from 20 years ago. As for "new takes" on star trek, there's nothing new about shifting from drama to action to and dumbing down to make a stale property more exciting and appealing to a mass audience.
At this point, Star Trek is like a beat up old car, where the doors have all been replaced, one at a time, cheapest available from the scrappy when required, so the finishes don't match, neither does the tint in the windows, and... I mean, it runs, but you double it's value every time you fill up the tank.
I don't know if this counts as one of those Nicholas Meyer "jokes" but I always loved in Wrath of Khan how starfleet headquarters has standard contemporary "Exit" signs all over the place. Hundreds of years in the future, but the humble exit sign reached it's zenith back in the 20th :p
Hear me out Section 31 in the future created Klingons in the past to force the fast track development of the Federation to take on the Romulan so they can reunite with the Vulcan to turn them into new hybrid which is an augment human so they can advance the Federation in the future lead by Michael Burnham. Damn I should be a writer for the show or movies.😂😂😂
A word on production inconsistencies (about 7:10). I have come to resolve it like this... Whatever Star Trek looks like in whatever show, in whatever year era, it has always looked like that. Even if it doesn't. When you see the Enterprise in Strange New Worlds, it is the exact ship from TOS. Even if it doesn't look like that. They are the same, and always have been. The creators of TOS saw the Strange New World bridge. And now you do too. As long as one can maintain that frame of mind, all production inconsistencies disappear.
Spock was clearly joking about Sherlock Holmes being an ancestor and the Vulcans having a proverb about Nixon. The nerd impulse to take every single word out of every character's mouth literally and file it into the vault of canon lore is exhausting.
Why Klingons cut their hair is almost as compelling as 'how did we go from Spock being the first/only Vulcan in Starfleet' to 'Starfleet being littered with Vulcans of all ranks and ages' (not to mention that we did that by going backward in the timeline somehow?) [I am firmly in the same camp as Steve 'don't know, don't care, Strange New Worlds is telling some great stories, that's enough for me.]
I'm curious where you draw the line for when something breaks too much. When is something too different to be considered Star Trek? For me, the world building is part of what Star Trek is for me. If in one series Wolf 359 had not happened, I couldn't logically accept it as being in the same universe as TNG/DS9. So then while the characters could have the same names, but they would not be the ones I knew and loved.
Love these videos. Why the green screen with your room in the background? (Am I correct in noticing you're not actually in the room?) Thanks for all your content!
On your points about a Fan becoming a Writer, and Characters acting like they live in the world not Fans of it. I was reminded of Stargate Universe, where the Actor of Eli Wallis was a passionate fan of the Stargate series. He often would bring up points that somebody had forgotten and would cause problem, the writers and show runners where annoyed but like in a they where wrong and not a cannon getting in the way. It was nice that Eli never came off as a huge Stargate Nerd, just as the Nerd his character was written as.
Internal consistency is important when it comes to suspension of disbelief. The universe should feel believable, and consistent. That doesn't mean you have to anally obsess over every tiny little detail though. I'm ok with things like visual/stylistic changes, for example.
All plot inconsistencies in Star Trek actually now have a fully in-canon explanation. The extensive history of time travel within the franchise has resulted in significant changes to the Star Trek timeline. This was mentioned specifically in the context of the timeline of the Eugenics Wars, but this could just as easily apply to any of the inconsistencies we see in the series. Canonically, time travelers did it!
My problem with "there are ways to write it that don't include the cameo" is, basically, "But why is the narratively relevant character not present for the event?" If it makes narrative sense for Tuvok to be present, then he should be present. And Tuvok being present for an important event in Seven's life makes narrative sense given their history together. Just like Jeb (I think that was his name. It's been a while) makes narrative sense as someone Seven would be looking for in Season One of Picard. He's not just "oh, there's a familiar face" he's also "this character's presence makes sense for the story" and I see avoiding that without a good reason as being, well, overly concerned with unimportant details. I think it's fine to have characters gush about how cool a ship is or what ship they think looks the coolest. Especially if those characters are established to be geeky like that. Or it's the normal sort of "my ship is better than your ship" thing. That's always fun and a good source for more light hearted plots like "Take Me Out to the Holosuite".
Oh Steve Steve Steve. I usually agree with you, but in this case you’re dead wrong. Tuvok wasn’t on Picard strictly for fan-service. He was there for fan-service AND because Kate Mulgrew cost too much.
I always loved the "Sisko is an engineer" plotline. It was set up right from the pilot, when he was planning to pack in Starfleet and go into civilian construction, but it didn't really sink in with me until he went cuckoo and started building a clock.
EDIT "cuckoo" and "building a clock."
* sigh *
Oh dear.
Don't try to disavow your pun. It is a good pun and he deserves love.
Own your puns dude, that was a good one.
In that case, it was *absolutely* deliberate.
I'm clever.
I'm funny.
and a solar powered interstellar spaceship.
Honestly, leaving SimCity unpaused is complete immersion fulfilment for me.
Every time, I’m like “I’ll only be a minute or two, I’ll leave it running and rack up some extra taxes!“ Then, I come back half an hour later and everything is on fire! :)
It's not really Sim City until everything is on fire and Gojira has invaded.
@@BrianS1981well since gojira is a nuke dino going chernobyl in sims is lore accurate
I've said it before, and I'll say it agan; the best way to handle the "New Klingons" in "Trials and Tribble-ations" would have been to have Worf walk out looking exactly like all the other Klingons in the original episode and *nobody mention it at all or even seem to notice.*
This comment does sound familiar
I thought the obvious solution to that change was to make the TOS Klingons from a different planet within the empire. They were conquered by the Kronos Klingons early on and adapted their culture but with behavioral holdovers from their own.
I have said this many times too.
@@1monki That's how my head canon dealt with the Discovery Klingons: I see them as other factions that are either extinct now, or have become more isolated so we stopped hearing from them. Of course, we all know the real answer: seeing them through sixties glasses!
@@Mad-Bassist Is "seeing through sixties glasses" a UA-cam friendly way of saying "watching the show on acid"?
And you're FoRGETTING the biggest thing is he designed... he helped design THE DEFIANT.
Yes,its good having ships that are not the entrprise. Remember the titan , not that billionaires dumb suicidal boat.
I’m sure all those orbital habitats were really useful too :D but yeah it was literally his job before the DS9 posting lol.
What a beautiful ship, but come on. That ship is not the best designed "thing" he ever made. The Defiant has a bunch of awesome benefits (small, maneuverable in a way a galaxy class or higher ship can't be, overpowered to the point where if they ever went full throttle it would blow up) but it is a glass cannon. Sisko made some amazing creations over the years, but I wouldn't put my chips on his mods and efforts to design the Defiant. Truly, that logo for the Niners is his best thing. Ever. #Ninersforever
I have mixed feelings about the Defiant.
For one thing, the idea of making a ship that is just a pair of engines, a cloaking device, enough shields, and as many guns as you can fit on it, is viscerally appealing to me.
But on the other hand, it is very clearly a warship, and Starfleet shouldn't have those.
To borrow from SFDebris:
Only so named because starfleet rejected the name USS Benjamin Sisko's MFing Pimp Hand.
I've never thought about Sisko as a builder before, but that's a very insightful point. And it's one you can take beyond his cooking and anything he has constructed with his hands. Sisko built the team who reported to him on the station and brought them together. He rebuilt the promenade as a social space for those living on/visiting the station. He helped rebuild the entire station after is was abandoned by the Cardassians. If you think of Sisko in this way, he was the best person to send as commander of Deep Space Nine because he was a builder. I love that new insight into his character.
are you watching star trek the correct way?🤣
Thinking about the "old Vulcan proverb", I like to think that Spock is embracing his human side, which just happens to have an incredibly dry sense of humor. And outside of the TOS crew, nobody else ever gets to see that side of him.
Heck I don't think of dry wit as being un-Vulcan, so I think Spock just making a joke fits as much with his human side as his Vulcan. How many of his rejoinders to Bones in TOS would fit as dry wit?
So yeah, I've just always assumed Spock and Kirk both knew that it was not an old Vulcan proverb and that Spock was having a bit of fun.
It wasn't an old Vulcan proverb, it was Spock quoting his human ancestors.
Totally agree with the “embracing humanity” dry humor interpretation.
In fairness, while Vulcans do not embrace emotion, there is no Vulcan who doesn't embrace sarcasm.
as i have said before, our views on trek differ substantially (i got a drastically different interpretation form picard s3 for example), i will say that your responses here really are the core of why i appreciate 99% of the content you create. its fun and insightful and makes me really think about my own positions. plus you are pretty funny too which is also great.
I’d love to have a series of Curzon adventures. Just watched TOS with Kor and was wondering how great Curzon was in order to change Kor’s mind.
You know, the way you described how Star Trek 6 wrapped up the Original Series story is exactly how I feel about how season 1 of Prodigy wrapped up - it was a great wrapping up of the characters and their goals for the season, and while I absolutely want to see how they develop under Janeway's command in their search for Chakotay, it still felt like we got a solid ending point for the series. I'm still disappointed that the show was cancelled (and am properly irate about them removing the show from Paramount+) - but I also didn't feel like we NEEDED another season for the series to get a proper ending.
There is going to be a second season, it'll just be on netflix. I think it's coming out later this year
There are people who seem to make hating a tv show their personality & i genuinely can't imagine wasting on my time on something that makes me want to rant endlessly
Eh, hating stuff can be fun!
That's why we all need to go back to the sagest words ever spoken... "Just repeat to yourself 'It's just a show and I should really just relax.'" 😉
Welcome to Star Wars fandom. Kathleen Kennedy deserves a lot of criticism, but the kind of hatred directed towards her is uncalled for. By this point it doesn’t matter what she does, a lot of people will hate it because she did it.
you definitely should avoid becoming disabled, because let me tell you how much it sucks to have the entire world so indifferent to your suffering that there is no functional difference between them and the people who DO actually want us dead and there's literally nothing you can do about it other than rant endlessly because waiting to die in legislated poverty gives you nothing else to do.
@@davidcolby167. Terrible way to live life and add to society.
The explanation I came up with once for Spock claiming Sherlock Holmes was an ancestor, was that Amanda read him the stories as a child and lied to him. In that totally benign, Santa Claus sort of way: Spock was enamored with this highly logical human, and Amanda said “well we’re actually descended from him you know.” And since Spock never interacted with the stories again after he grew up, he never learned that they were actually fictional.
But whatever. It’s really just a good little joke.
You need to do a video response to the comments on your Titan submersible disaster commentary video. Call it "Not Actually Woke, Actually."
The only movie ending that really left me feeling the way you described was for Return of the King. There was a moment there while I was completely savoring the experience I just shared in the theater with everyone else where I felt like I never had to watch another movie ever again. Of course eventually that feeling faded and I saw more movies, but for that one moment I felt more satisfied with a well-spun tale than I ever had!
Sisko's nature as an engineer and builder was alluded to with the fact that Defiant was a project he worked on, and his prior posting had been at Utopia Planetia Shipyards where starfleet builds its boats. He also loves to cook, which is another form of building and engineering. I think its safe to say that in an alt universe Sisko might have opted not to go command path and become a Chief Engineer.
19:50
its been bought up a few times in various groups about what kind of careers the captains had before they took on command roles
Janeway was explictly a science officer, and I think Sisko was an Engineer at some point for the reasons you mentioned, as well as being a major contributer on The Defiant and happy to get hands on with other engineering projects like the Ore Processing center in Civil Defence.
In the TNG episode where Data and Jiordi first act out Sherlock on screen, Data does say at one point that Moriarty was written by Doyle as the perfect enemy for Holmes. So there is that. They are acting out Doyle’s story and not Watsons recounting.
The simple fact is, as an intellectual property, Sherlock Holmes IS an ancestor of Mr Spock. Holmes is arguably the first example Of a character driven primarily by logic and reason; Spock is perhaps his most important descendant.
Moriarty wasn't written, he was immortalized. Doyle was very much aware of Adam Wort, but he proved to be elusive even for the Pinkerton Agency.
If you want to get really twisty you could say Holmes was a real person who had fictional stories written about him, after all it's thought that Conan-doyle based Holmes on one of his professors.
I think sometimes the biggest problems with Story Ends in big franchises, is that those at the top often don't understand the differences between This crew at This time is over and the Characters have more stories to tell. As you said it's what Picard should have been.
If there was ever any doubt, your hilarious deep dive into Sherlock Holmes being Spock’s ancestor proves you are, and always were just as much of a Star Trek nerd as anyone else. If not moreso.
Love you Steve!
Jared Harris nailed the belter accent without that being the only part of his character, what a talent. It's a shame they couldn't get the calendars to line up, but with an actor that good he's in high demand
As for consistency, I am reminded of the German (written) SF series Perry Rhodan. It started 1961 and is still running today, putting out a new episode (around 60 pages) every week. Over time, the set of authors keeps changing, but it still works as one long story (and that's ignoring the countless spinoffs/side projects) because they spend a lot of effort keeping everything consistent. (One side project coming out of this effort is an encyclopedia for the series.) These days, they are all over the internet, of course.
They made a show from The Expanse?
Those books are amazing. How did I miss that?
i think it was talked a fair bit, yeah gets liked too.
First couple seasons were on Sci-Fi, canceled, then bought and brought to 6 seasons by Amazon. Great series. Covers the first 6 books. Still rumors of movies to cover the last 3. One half of James SA Corey (Ty Frank) and one of the stars of the show (Wes Chatham) have a podcast to this day.
It’s just the first 6 books but yeah! It was a SyFy production in its first 3 seasons, trying to recapture the BSG magic, then they cancelled it and Amazon bought the rights and did another 3 seasons. (In HDR with really nice cameras.)
As always some characters are merged, some events reordered, etc etc in the adaptation but yeah it’s really good.
The visual design, especially a couple seasons in, is so thought-out and cohesive. Almost nothing is just Rule of Cool and I love that.
Also its holograms is what early Discovery and Picard aped (thanks to executive meddling about modernity). But The Expanse actually has thought behind the gestures and methodology, while Discovery seemingly went “we’ll make it fit, do whatever with your hands”.
Also also, I actually think the way they presented Robomiller was way way cooler than how the book described it.
However you get the episodes I think you’re in for a treat!
@@kaitlyn__L cool.
I don’t watch a lot of tv, and nothing from Amazon, so that’s how I missed it.
I think I’ll do a reread of the books and then check it out!
For reasons I’ll never understand, neither Syfy, nor its second home at Amazon ever properly advertised the show.
My theory about why Picard Season 2 was all over the place was because the writers and cast were scrambling to help cover for the late Annie Wersching lack of appearances as she may have been going through cancer treatments during the time of filming and may have taken ill as well.
I do give much respect to the Season 2 cast and production team as they went above and beyond to maintain her cover.
Again, just my personal theory.
I haven't seen the series in question, but I recall Annie Wersching from an episode of Enterprise and I like your theory.
The inability of people to accept that something they enjoy is over is one of the things that drags good stories down the most, in my opinion. We need to learn to embrace closure.
And that is all that needs to be said to that :)
nah, I don't mind endings that much, but I like the idea the heroes of the story are still doing similar things in similar situations even though I don't get to see
It has always been strange to me that attempts are made to reconcile Spock's jokes when Spock relearning humor is a thread within the films.
Exactly, he even has that line about him and Kirk outliving their usefulness because they're old. "Would that constitute... a joke?" And it works because he is so obviously TELLING a joke, and Nimoy's delivery is perfect.
Yeah, the Sherlock Holmes thing - Spock has a sense of humor. Who knew? 😉
Something I've wondered about the renaming of the Titan to the Enterprise is that in naval tradition, rechristening a ship is a big deal and generally considered to be bad luck. Like, I'm pretty sure there's a specific set of circumstances and ceremony involved when rechristening a ship. You don't just slap a new name on the hull and take an early day.
I always interpreted the Spock/Sherlock Holmes quote as Spock pulling Saavik's leg. I would argue that Spock seems to become increasingly comfortable with his Human half over the course of the TOS movies. He exaggerates, he jokes, he expresses his affection for Kirk on multiple occasions. After all, there's another Spock quote that he says to Saavik (and which I believe to be a Spock original...) that "Logic is the beginning of wisdom. Not the end."
I think the Spock we see post-ST3 is Spock moving "beyond logic" (we see some of it in Wrath of Khan too, of course). We see him moving past logic to tap into the wisdom his Human heritage also offers.
Just an additional thought to consider. Love your Trek videos!
I will just add one thing - I really enjoy Ethan Peck's portrayal of Spock in Strange New Worlds. He is able to channel both the Spock of the original series who is trying to be as Vulcan as possible. But Peck also shows us "the cracks" in the armor, the human side that we all know Spock has, and will only become more prominent in his personality as he matures.
As someone who's watching star trek for the first time, I must say the best way is to watch it concurrently with the Ensign's Log podcast, the greatest non-fiction podcast of all, which makes the show even better.
Welcome aboard 🖖
I think what they should have done. Is to have created and “Enterprise Class” of ship. That would have ended the naming but continued the legacy. This is one of the problems with having shows in different times running at the same time without planning. That could have been revealed in Discovery, but Picard could have revealed the reason for it.
Good idea
Me and my partner have been slowly getting through a couple Star Trek shows and whenever we find an early season one in the TNG era that looks a bit hard to sit through we'll just have fun reading the descriptions. In one for DS9 pretty early in Season 2 we found a character description for Sisko where the writers directly mentioned how they'd just decided to make Sisko "The Builder". I bet it would make them happy to know that after all it was said and done that came across perfectly to the point it could be pointed out without ever being super explicit. His ships, artifacts, and baseball caps add so much to his depth.
When I first got the TNG DVDs (and this seems to apply to Netflix too), it looked like whoever was compiling the descriptions just watched the first scene of each episode.
Speaking of hair and klingons, one of my favorite jokes on the Rifftrax for Star Trek: Generations, was the part where one of the klingons says "I have established a link" and then Mike Nelson says "Between us, and the ancient creature known as Slash!"
Thank you for giving me a reason to snort tea out my nose!
Honestly, I'd pay good money to see a Klingon with a classic Les Paul shredding that solo at the end of 'Paradise City'.
I love Ducat and he is the correct choice for Sisko's greatest nemesis, but for the series as a whole I'd honestly say Kai Winn. Someone so self assured in how right they are that they never consider the alternative. She was the kind of Nemesis you love to hate, especially helped by being played by such a wonderful actress in (RIP Louise Fletcher).
I think that not spelling everything out explicitly also results in a stronger fan community because people have things to discuss and share with each other rather than just being given it.
Would love more deep dives on the Expanse, by itself, or even compared to Star Trek to keep with your themes (ya know, cuz you're not busy enough Steve, more Steve Steve! Thank you Steve).
You talking about all the fun little Nicholas Meyer jokes in ST VI reminds me of TOS. I'm rewatching it with a partner, and I'm noticing that by the far side of season 1 the main recurring cast all have a pretty well developed chemistry, and together with the addition of Chekov, I found myself laughing at a few lines here and there.
One that sticks out for me is the final ep of S1, Operation: Annihilate. The landing party beams down and a few people rush them with clubs, and after they they're dispatched Kirk exclaims "They tried to brain us" and maybe it's just me but it caught me off guard haha.
Anyway the undercurrent of humor is welcome, especially in the common alien of the week episodes of TOS.
It's the signatures that really solidified "This is it" for me. There were tears.
Sisko has always been a builder, he arrived at DS9 from Utopia Planitia where he worked on the first generation of borg resistant / response ships. I think though it was never explicitly said on screen that he worked on the defiant project.
32:59 Steve manages to avoid mentioning Lower Decks through this entire section, but I feel like his thoughts can be summarized as an appropriate LD quote made about (Riker's) Titan: "Oh no! It's another Enterprise!"
There is a line that exists between “fan service” and “understanding that these characters all exist in the same franchise, and so of course would be present in certain situations”. I really wish more folks understood that. Because the moment a Tuvok or someone else appears, “It’s just worthless fan service. They could have done it better another way.”
Why? Cause you like your sub-groups (individual shows/casts) within a franchise to stay in their respective boxes? Whether you like it or not, Tuvok, and many other characters, simply exist in the franchise. So it makes sense that they will appear in different shows, whether for a single scene, or more if needed.
“You can explain anything away with that argument.” Yeah. Cause the f’ing characters exist in this make-believe universe. And they have roles and jobs and relationships that intertwine between shows.
It’s like when you’re watching a Marvel movie, and the world is about to end due to the villain of the film, and someone has to ask, “Should we call the Avengers?” And unless there was money in the budget for cameos, the answer is, “They’re off-planet.” And so it becomes a balancing act of is it fan service or does it make sense and serve the characters/story… and ultimately if there is money in the budget. Because like it or not, the Avengers exist in that universe, so of course that’s going to be at the back of the audience’s collective mind.
There is a wrong way to watch Star Trek: with the voice off and without subtitles. You can't get what's going on!
The fifth element is another sci fi movie where the main villain and hero charcaters never actually meet face to face. It can be a powerful story telling device when done right.
Even within star trek, you have st6 and nemesis, both of where the hero meets their villain counterpart, where the former is lauded as anamazing piece of cinema, and the latter less so.
There's always a way to improve a story in hindsight, not story is 100% perfect in any one persons eye, it's all about telling a story and each person will interpret it in their own unique way.
I think my “because…writers!” question on Twitter has struck a nerve.
Can't decide if I wish a comment of mine to ever be featured.
But I'm not half as witty nor half as clever or half as observant to have anything of substance to contribute.
btw: The Sisko being a great designer is so subtle , we all forget he helped design the Defiant as well (if I'm not mistaken). ;)
Thanks for this video. I do love the comment responses.
LLAP and DFTBA.
🖖🖖
The fact that Kirk and Khan don’t have a scene physically together was something I never noticed until pointed out, and they did a great job with it. But that dinner scene with Chang is incredible and shows how yeah, maybe the protagonist and antagonist should have at least one scene on the same planet together (or ship or whatever)
While Dukat was Sisko's nemesis, Major Kira's was Kai Winn. It is quite an interesting detail in their characterization, highlighting the parallels between the pairs.
The way you describe ST:VI in such glowing terms explains so much of your problems with Picard, and to a certain degree with Lower Decks. We've reached the denouement for these series, and told all the stories we need to. And so when the writers go back to the well and continue dredging more, you've already hit the point of diminishing returns.
I don't think renaming another ship to "Enterprise" would have flown with Mr. Roddenberry given his history: as I understand it, renaming a ship is supposed to be bad luck. The Exxon Valdez was renamed at least six times...
Ent G should've been a new "revised Constitution" - and show her reveal as a sister ship 'sailing' out of spacedock beside the repaired Titan. Seven could be the Captain of Ent G, and Rafi the Captain of the Titan.
Eddington gave Sisko permission to later murder the Romulan ambassador to bring them into the Dominion war. I think if he hadnt been the bad guy in their little psycho drama he might not been willing to go with Garrick's plan.
Deep Space Nine's Trials and Tribble-ations had the best solution to the Klingon forehead problem - "Yes, they are Klingons. We do not talk about it with outsiders." Done. Hang that lampshade and keep on walking. No need to ever bring it up again. The only solution that could've been even better is if Worf had suddenly switched to Klassic Klingon while in the past and *no one* noticed, but occasionally made comments about him changing his hairstyle or something similarly silly. It was a comedy episode. Keep it funny.
Putting this at the start in desperate hope Steve'll see this: I fully agree about the Titan name change at the end of Picard S3 - changing the Titan to the Enterprise would be a lot like changing the Enterprise to the Stargazer after Picard did a big important mission early in TNG, to recognize his history with that ship.
Can't say I quite agree with Steve on the second Tuvok appearance *but* I will say that's how I felt about the first appearance (which was definitely meant to show "they have no-one they can turn to") and without that first appearance, the second is far less organic (if the end was the only time he appeared, then it'd be pure fan service cameo, but with the first one revealed to be a fake, the second gives us slight closure to that thread without shoving in another unnecessary scene nor relying on the "and everyone was okay" line that does still exist in the episode). That said, I think the performance review from...umm...Todd Stashwick (oh, Captain Shaw, thank you for saying his name, Steve) made no sense, it didn't fit in the timeline of the season, and much as it gives a little closure/catharsis, I didn't like that aspect of the scene.
Overall I liked Picard.
Season 3 my biggest problems:
Where'd the good borg go? Why have borg at all?
That setup was perfect for sticking with changelings or those body snatching aliens from the first season of TNG.
Love the whole Sisko is an engineer/creator comment. Kind of cool in the Prophet visions he was a writer, always a creative force.
I would love a series exploring why the Klingons' hairstyle changed. BUT ONLY if the characters' makeup constantly switched between TOS, TNG and DIS styles from shot to shot, with no explanation.
I am the Star Trek fan that hated even the idea of the Calvin timeline but I like to consider myself a treky even though technically the differences attract he is someone who just watches, and a checker goes to conventions. I've been to a sci-fi convention, so technically I could consider myself a treker.
Here's another great facet that Sisko-as-engineer brings to light: That aspect of his personality highlights just how good a commander he is, when you see how he interacts with O'Brien. He sees and respects the Chief's expertise. He doesn't micro-manage his decisions as an engineer. He doesn't try to do O'Brien's job, he facilitates it so his subordinate has what he needs as much as possible.
Random aside- Sisko-as-Chef also brings out the fact that Sisko-as-Gardener is a thing that exists, and it's never a big deal. Mentioned twice that I can think of, at appropriate moments as part of who he is and then just left to exist.The traitor Eddington waxes rhapsodic about how Sisko grew vegetables for (Thanksgiving?) dinner. Sisko is distraught when he comes home to find Kasidy has taken "My Peppers!" and tried to cook with them, instead burning them to a crisp. And it's just right, it is who Ben Sisko is as much as his role as Emissary.
If you've ever had a really "cool" car or seen one, you're most likely to have addressed it with your friends, so talking about how cool a ship is by the characters to me is just a facet of life that we all have done with something we thought was cool.
Agreed. I know that if I was on the Enterprise (any iteration, really), my non-Enterprise crew friends and family would get so sick of hearing about what a sweet ship I was working/living on.
Of course, I also named my best, sleekest, most versatile and heavy-duty sewing machine ever 'Enterprise D', after having been working for years on an ancient machine held together with duct tape, bicycle grease, and hope that was named 'Serenity', so...
You’re so right about a bad tv show not being a big deal.
I thought Solok was Sisko's greatest nemisis.
True . Trough eddington like sisko had to give in him dying a hero, yes solok might challenge that .
I mean, you're not wrong.
The guy learned to play and excel at baseball just because it was one of Ben's favourite pastimes.
True, Sisko hates to play ball with him.
I always took the 'Only Nixon could go to China' and the 'Sherlock Holmes ancestor' bit as Spock always being a bit off after the whole dying and getting hit katra back business, some lingering Star Trek 4, or in his own way, he developed his own deadpan humor from the experience.
"The Full Straczynski" 👍
On not getting past different types of fandom preferences or right/wrong ways of making and enjoying a show: In the real world I am a chef, and my product is up to constant critique. It sucks when you feel stuck in the status quo. I recognize the workers in the pieces of entertainment that I follow, and even if, for example, I consider myself ambivalent towards Lower Decks and I tend to cringe at musicals, I saw how those two episodes of SNW may have greatly appealed to other fans, and showed that Star Trek is still willing after all of these decades to not always take itself seriously and explore frontiers of production. The cast (and I imagine the crew) looked like they had enjoyable experiences. That is arguably as important as the story. I want the people working for my entertainment to do their best, but I also want them to feel free in breaking the mould when it suits the story, or even just when the story needs a break from itself so that I can see my fellow nerds allowing themselves joy on screen that is their workplace.
So, I've got to disagree with the "it's okay to ignore history if it works for the story" take at the start of the video. The main reason is because it's almost almost always avoidable, and if the writer of a series or individual episode can't tell a specific story without breaking established canon, then you have to wonder how hard they're really trying. While I don't necessarily believe it's laziness as the person commented, it could be an honest mistake that is noticed too late to be fixed, but the fact that it's there still distracts from the show. Steve, you even say that if it happens you notice, but if the shows good you move on, but in that moment you are pulled out of the show because rather than tying too points together that gives you a deeper understanding of the narrative, instead you are saying to yourself "wait...that doesn't make sense" and if you break verisimilitude too often, you start feeling that if the writers, directors and producers don't care, why should I.
Granted, one or two mistakes/breaks of canon doesn't get you there, but it can happen.
Fan service can be done well, though. Yes, it does have to have good writing underpinning it. But to name a few of my favorite examples: both the "Trials and Tribble-ations" episode of DS9 and the movie Galaxy Quest are absolutely based at least in part on engaging with the fans and following up on ideas like "wouldn't it be fun if the crew of DS9 were there when the stuff in 'Trouble with Tribbles' went down?" or "wouldn't it be awesome if you found out that secretly it's all real and they need your help?" Sometimes fans want things that are (or at least can be, with good writing) good and fun. "The fans don't know what they want and I don't care what they want" is just too strong. Sometimes the fans know what they want and they're right; sometimes the fans know what they want and they're wrong; and sometimes the fans don't know what they want until you give it to them. The goal shouldn't be to always care OR always not care. It should be to have good judgment about it.
You're 100% right about Star Trek VI, though. It's the best for sure. Followed by IV, of course.
With respect to the Behr quote about giving the fans what they want: I think there is always a balancing act between "I'm going to give them what they need for a good show" and giving the fans what they want. And it's easy to shift that balance too far one way or the other. Sure, tell a good story first and foremost. Put open flames in the captain's quarters on a starship, since you have all kinds of environmental controls so you can have pretty much as much oxygen as you need. Is a complete redesign of the Klingon makeup and costuming really necessary to tell this story? That and the all-blue starfleet uniforms took me out of the story without adding anything to the story. I think they (the Discovery team) realized by Season Two that, while they had every right to change up the aesthetic of the show for new audiences and to take into account new effects technology and better budgets etc., there is such a thing as taking things too far. Strange New Worlds, in my opinion strikes that balance better than Discovery did.
I think of the blue uniforms in Disco as the logical end state of the blue jumpsuits from the Enterprise era, modded and refined over years.
It might be worth bearing in mind that DS9 may have benefited from being somewhat overlooked (as opposed to overseen) by TPTB (otherwise known as The Idiots in Charge). The writers seem to have been left to do their own thing.
The only wrong eay to watch is in reverse.
Not last episode to first, but end of episode to beginning
The real answer is that Holmes was based on Dr. Joseph Bell who actually DID say that.
You know, growing up with Star Trek TNG and TOS reruns I sometimes worry that my aversion to newer Star Trek shows like enterprise are rooted in some sort of nostalgia bias or resilience to change, then I realise I also grew up with DS9 what was amazing and voyager which was f*****g s**t and I realise that sometimes Star Trek is just badly written.
I used to think like you then I realised I was just getting old and grumpy and needed to accept this new phase of my life.
I find it strange that in your opinion a "fan service cameo" would have to be explained and integrated into the story in sone major way while tje same show still has random one off side characters
Hearing you say "The Full Straczynski" makes my little Babylon 5 heart so happy.
About Sisko being a builder, I’d say that it’s more about him being a designer. I’ll explain: designing is more than just coming up with pretty things. It’s about finding something ‘wrong’ (or at least ‘not optimal’) and laboring to fix it. A *designer* has/needs to seek out imperfection and fix them. If that’s not Sisko’s job after the Cardassians left DS9, I don’t know what it is.
Sisko is a designer of physical things, and a builder of relationships, particularly with Bajor.
I'd like to see some follow up episodes on WHY Steve did not pause Sim City.
I dont get it, what was that all about anyway?
Star Trek: Barbershop -- 7 seasons and a movie during which we finally come to understand and appreciate the critical role that the ancestors of Mott played in shaping the course of the Klingon Empire.
'They' do say 'it' about Sisko. He helped design the Defiant, he is a starship designer, in part. The rest of the examples given 100% flow with that personality, including cooking, but yeah, they say it as well.
My biggest problem with Picard 3 was that the killed off the only really original character, the character that told Picard and Riker "no" not because of some conspiratorial plot, but because he saw through their bullshit. He was the most complex character in the show, he had his flaws and foibles much like most of the characters on DS9. Thats also why I loved those characters, the same reason I loved the character of Barkley. Not because they were the archetypical heroes, but because they were NOT.
"...you can take bad writing and justify it and make it seem like good writing..."
If it seems like good writing isn't it just... good writing?
Coming from comic books the whole klingons looking different thing is very silly like imagine if people complained that spiderman looked slightly different every time there was a new artist
Having an opinion which goes contrary to the popular consensus is how I survive as a Star Wars fan. It's an argument a friend and I have been having for years.
Funnily enough, we broadly agree on Star Trek
The line about the Sisko is a Maker spawned a thought about a Jonathon Larson line: "The Opposite of War is not Peace - it's Creation" which *even further* dovetails into the polar opposition that Dukat and Sisko share.
I would say not caring because it's not relevant to your story is laziness, and while if the show is good, it doesn't matter, lazy writers rarely make compelling stuff, as we've seen with much of the post-ENT content. After a hit and miss but generally enjoyable first season SNW is rapidly going over a cliff in terms of doing anything creative, interesting or enjoyable. Most of the pitches that have been put in production are lazy rehashes of existing failed pitches from 20 years ago. As for "new takes" on star trek, there's nothing new about shifting from drama to action to and dumbing down to make a stale property more exciting and appealing to a mass audience.
At this point, Star Trek is like a beat up old car, where the doors have all been replaced, one at a time, cheapest available from the scrappy when required, so the finishes don't match, neither does the tint in the windows, and... I mean, it runs, but you double it's value every time you fill up the tank.
I don't know if this counts as one of those Nicholas Meyer "jokes" but I always loved in Wrath of Khan how starfleet headquarters has standard contemporary "Exit" signs all over the place. Hundreds of years in the future, but the humble exit sign reached it's zenith back in the 20th :p
Hear me out Section 31 in the future created Klingons in the past to force the fast track development of the Federation to take on the Romulan so they can reunite with the Vulcan to turn them into new hybrid which is an augment human so they can advance the Federation in the future lead by Michael Burnham. Damn I should be a writer for the show or movies.😂😂😂
A word on production inconsistencies (about 7:10). I have come to resolve it like this... Whatever Star Trek looks like in whatever show, in whatever year era, it has always looked like that. Even if it doesn't. When you see the Enterprise in Strange New Worlds, it is the exact ship from TOS. Even if it doesn't look like that. They are the same, and always have been. The creators of TOS saw the Strange New World bridge. And now you do too. As long as one can maintain that frame of mind, all production inconsistencies disappear.
Spock was clearly joking about Sherlock Holmes being an ancestor and the Vulcans having a proverb about Nixon. The nerd impulse to take every single word out of every character's mouth literally and file it into the vault of canon lore is exhausting.
Spock is not well known for his jokes
Great commentary on Dukat/Sisko.
Why Klingons cut their hair is almost as compelling as 'how did we go from Spock being the first/only Vulcan in Starfleet' to 'Starfleet being littered with Vulcans of all ranks and ages' (not to mention that we did that by going backward in the timeline somehow?) [I am firmly in the same camp as Steve 'don't know, don't care, Strange New Worlds is telling some great stories, that's enough for me.]
15:15 "You went to far when you named that kid Neelix." Exactly.
I'm curious where you draw the line for when something breaks too much. When is something too different to be considered Star Trek?
For me, the world building is part of what Star Trek is for me. If in one series Wolf 359 had not happened, I couldn't logically accept it as being in the same universe as TNG/DS9. So then while the characters could have the same names, but they would not be the ones I knew and loved.
Also, Meyer wrote the "Seven Percent Solution", a novel about Holmes. Wrote the screenplay, too.
Love these videos. Why the green screen with your room in the background? (Am I correct in noticing you're not actually in the room?) Thanks for all your content!
Oh snap! I said something worth commenting on in a video! I'm shocked something worthwhile came out of my mouth.
It’s fun seeing all the ‘ackschually’ comments. You are _all_ correct. Stay safe out there!
On your points about a Fan becoming a Writer, and Characters acting like they live in the world not Fans of it. I was reminded of Stargate Universe, where the Actor of Eli Wallis was a passionate fan of the Stargate series. He often would bring up points that somebody had forgotten and would cause problem, the writers and show runners where annoyed but like in a they where wrong and not a cannon getting in the way. It was nice that Eli never came off as a huge Stargate Nerd, just as the Nerd his character was written as.
I think recent events have given me more, not less, reason to be curious about the quality of seagoing vessels I'm going to board Steve.
I met a guy through my work who's kids' middle names were Riker and Tripp. That made me smile.
Internal consistency is important when it comes to suspension of disbelief. The universe should feel believable, and consistent. That doesn't mean you have to anally obsess over every tiny little detail though. I'm ok with things like visual/stylistic changes, for example.
37:50 "look, I like the ships", me completely miss understanding what kinda of ships for a sec
All plot inconsistencies in Star Trek actually now have a fully in-canon explanation. The extensive history of time travel within the franchise has resulted in significant changes to the Star Trek timeline. This was mentioned specifically in the context of the timeline of the Eugenics Wars, but this could just as easily apply to any of the inconsistencies we see in the series. Canonically, time travelers did it!
The title hooked me into this discussion immediately
My problem with "there are ways to write it that don't include the cameo" is, basically, "But why is the narratively relevant character not present for the event?" If it makes narrative sense for Tuvok to be present, then he should be present. And Tuvok being present for an important event in Seven's life makes narrative sense given their history together. Just like Jeb (I think that was his name. It's been a while) makes narrative sense as someone Seven would be looking for in Season One of Picard. He's not just "oh, there's a familiar face" he's also "this character's presence makes sense for the story" and I see avoiding that without a good reason as being, well, overly concerned with unimportant details.
I think it's fine to have characters gush about how cool a ship is or what ship they think looks the coolest. Especially if those characters are established to be geeky like that. Or it's the normal sort of "my ship is better than your ship" thing. That's always fun and a good source for more light hearted plots like "Take Me Out to the Holosuite".
Oh Steve Steve Steve. I usually agree with you, but in this case you’re dead wrong. Tuvok wasn’t on Picard strictly for fan-service. He was there for fan-service AND because Kate Mulgrew cost too much.