There is no way that Winston Churchill wouldn't have been fully aware of the meaning of the sign. And he certainly wasn't above insulting people if they deserved it. One of my favorite stories from his life is that he is at a fancy dinner. As the dinner progressed it became somewhat obvious that he was in his cups. A woman mentioned the obvious to him "Sir! You are drunk!' " While I may be drunk, you, madam, are ugly, and tomorrow I shall wake up sober..."
Hahah, I love that story Peter, it was Lady Astor he insulted, and it's a classic isn't it. I'm also of the opinion he was damn sure he knew which way he wanted his V to face. 😉
Better one was Mrs Roosevelt..She said...” If I were your wife I would poison you” To which he replied...” Madam,if I was your husband,I would gladly drink it!”
The speech Churchill gave about ‘we shall fight them on the beaches, we shall never surrender’… well, all the words used in that speech were of English origination EXCEPT for one word: Surrender. Which is a French word. And Churchill would have known this when he composed it, as he was an expert on the English language. Very sly of him!
SO GLAD to hear that the two finger gesture is a historical fact ! I never use anything else when I wish to make a point to someone I dislike ! It's a truly English thing ! Thanks for the video.
Great talk. Thanks. We'll still be debating this in 100 years time! I'm not convinced that the mediaeval sketch proves the case one way or another. But it's certainly a worthy discussion point. Thanks again Kevin.
I've always believed the "V" was the English showing the French they had their bow fingers, and basically saying you know what to expect! Great find regarding the picture, is it online to view?
I found your comments most amusing, Kevin. I have always understood that origin of the V-sign referred to the Bowmens' fingers and the dastardly Frenchies' habit of lopping them off. I am greatly pleased to note your evidence of this - well done sir! I shall proudly continue to display our traditional English sign of defiance in honour of our brave Bowmen!
Getting the two finger flash from an English archer, just before he sent a steel tipped clothyard arrow flying at your head, must have been infuriating to a French nobleman, especially when the Frenchman was insulted by the very presence of yeoman archers on the field of his chivalric endeavor, which was of course to murder any English knight he could engage with the traditional, extreme violence. All that money spent on armor, and all those years of training and fighting to become the killing machine of his age, only to have that brought to naught by some hairy eared commoner with a 170 pound longbow. Quelle horreur!
@@BoJangles3105 You must understand that the principles of chivalry only applied to those that the French knights deemed their sort, which is to say other minor nobility and their betters. Commoners were frowned upon, if for no other reason than they were able to kill Frenchmen who were "above their station". No true French knight would ever consider taking an English bowman prisoner; that was reserved for the select few worthies who they might actually profit from. It is also true that French knights and men-at-arms spent their entire lives, from adolescence on, in training for war, and were murderously efficient in their trade. They were the Tiger tanks of their day, immune from almost anything their peers could deploy against them, and it was galling for them to realize that some yokel armed with a stave of wood and a string could unhorse and kill them. I don't speak of the code of chivalry, as actually practiced in 14th and 15th century Europe, in any terms other than scorn and mockery.
170 LB would have been the exception rather than the rule. At what is currently regarded as the height of the bows development, Mary Rose bows were on average worked out to be around 120 LB draw weight. As for bowmen (Bowman rather than archer) killing enemy in plate armour, that was done more with bollock daggers, hammers, axes.
@@750triton That is likely true. But there would have been exceptional archers who could, and did, use bows of greater than average weight, and who would have especially offended a French man-at-arms for his effrontery...LOL You say potato, I say 'tater, so there's that. What was the archer's primary weapon again?
I have always understood the 'V' sign to come from the English archers. It was basically saying to the French, "Look! I've still got my two fingers and you know what's coming at you very soon!".
Fantastic as always...... 10 years with the army I used that quite often lol I have always told the V story as the old bowman story and always will .... cheers
I had recently heard the same about flipping the "V" and thought that doesn't sound right, after all I see it in plenty of movies and it had to come from somewhere. I'm so glad you found a historical piece of artwork that clearly shows it.
Cheers Mike - It's from Charles de Bold Chronicles about the Burgundian wars. The image is also on P.56 of the Ospray Warrior Series 'English Longbowman' 😉
@@thehistorysquad Thanks for the source. THere might be a little confirmation bias in this interpretation. Neither of the figures are making the classic fist with two extended figers. Their thumbs are extended. They could simply be pointing.
Brilliant video as always, Kevin. As for the V sign, I think it's far older than the Hundred Years War, probably back into antiquity such as the Roman period. Having been in the services yourself, you know how things have a habit of becoming adopted, particularly insulting gestures towards your enemy! So, I have no doubt that the bowmen and soldiers in general used the sign, but I don't think they actually invented it, but were carrying on a tradition that was by then ingrained into their makeup.
I always thought that flashing the ‘v’ s was as well as an insult, was a defiant challenge. One can imagine proud archers facing their enemies standing tall fingers raised to say ‘ f you want them, come get ‘em, I dare you ! ‘
Just discovered your channel, loved the video on the arrow removal on Henry the v. Amazing someone could survive such a procedure,let alone an injury of that nature, fantastic!
I watched season four of Buffy the Vampire Slayer when I was a kid. Well, in the intro credits, there was Spike giving the V symbol. To us Americans, we thought we was just saying how many drinks he had. Years later, I found out that that intro clip and scene in that episode was cut out completely in Britain because it pretty much was the same as flipping the bird. Just wild.
I'm from kinver, south staffs, saw you at Warwick castle, my daughter still talks about you and the rat catcher to this day, thank you for the memories.
Great to hear you again. I always loved photographing your 'lessons' at Millfield school. I learnt more about history from them than I ever did at school!!
The question is, when did the middle finger become an insult, and occasionally an act of defiance? Remember the crew of the USS Pueblo captured by the North Koreans in January 1968. In a group photo taken by their captors, they raised the middle finger in a mocking salute to their North Korean captors, who were told the middle finger was an American sign of respect toward a benefactor.
I think the middle inger is a US originating insult, Here in the midlands in 'UK, England, GB, UKGBNI' I preer England personally; the middle inger seems to be replacing the V that I always used liked to use as a kid, I'm rom Nuneaton, where the geder conused George Eliot is rom. I've not licked the V to another road user or years, always the middle inger. Sorry, as you might notice, one o my keyboard keys is broken due to tea spillage!
Beautifully condensed information. Only possible when someome ( Kevin!! ) is very very very well informed. eloquent and down to earth. Really to enjoy . Makes my day.
Mainlander here. I guess the tale of the bowman-origin makes perfect sense. I have adapted that gesture for myself. It's a nice camouflage for a middle finger when it's due as well! 🤗
Good info to know....facing one way an insult, palm out sign of victory! Whoa! Sure gives one a whole new perspective on that! Thank you for your wealth of information and research! I absolutely love your channel! I am in the US but have always been a history buff
do you know why we love you, because your crazy in a really nice kind of way. no insult intended it just came to me like a smile. history squad is great. thank yew kevin. thank you kevin for sharing the fun and sometimes horror of your knowledge. respectfully gary.
I was taught to shoot in the Longbow by an old gadgy from East Yorkshire Kevin, we used two fingers "Flemish" loose, also the best bowstrings came from Flanders.
Really appreciate the reply! Its great to see pictorial evidence on the question as well. It makes me smile to think of thousands of longbowmen all flicking the V's to the French 😃✌
Kevin Hicks once again giving us Englishmen a reason to put up two righteous fingers to all! Never knew there was a picture though! Great video as always Kevin :)
It's always good to be able to show doubters "the receipts" (as the current term for documentary evidence is called). I'm glad you got some vindication, in any event. I do want to point out that a "rude" gesture can mean different things to different folks; those bowmen might have adapted an older, more bawdy gesture (the extended fingers possibly representing a woman's legs) for their own use in defiance against French finger-choppers. =^[.]^=
I got into medieval history by playing Dungeons and Dragons in the eighties. I had heard very early on that ‘ Flipping the bird ‘ had been invented by British longbowmen ( have to say British, so I don’t get a Welshman saying. ‘ well , actually.. ‘ ) only with two fingers , having a basic knowledge of archery thanks to Erol Flynn’s ‘ Robin of Sherwood’ and a suction cup arrow Lone Ranger bow set , I thought that the fingers were together, not spread out . As for Churchill I believe he knew exactly what he was doing, didn’t give a damn , and if he could insult people while pretending not to he would. Speaking of Churchill, any thoughts on doing a video on Mad Jack , who apparently thought the Germans were French and that he was fighting the Hundred Years’ War?
Hey Phil, I started in exactly the same way with the bow and I like your 'British' comment too...........welcome to my world 😉 Definitely giving Mad jack some thought, he's a man I'd like to have known.
I could listen to you talk all day. When were you in the military sir? I was regular army (US) 81-85, and got to work with alot of brits during reforger. Good guys!
@@thehistorysquad I wanted to join the RMP when I was 18. I went to the army careers office, told them as much and the recruiting Sergeant spat into a dustbin.. Very disconcerting for a young lad from the shires… 😱 I ended up joining the British Transport Police instead.. 🙂 only because I had an application in with them as well as the RMP and the BTP got me first…
I have read a couple of books regarding the Hundred Years’ War and it was well documented that if the French captured bowmen they would first remove their two fingers, then their eyes , and then bits that make babies and leave them to bleed to death and the English war captains would make sure that all the archers knew exactly what would happen if they fell into enemy hands. The great and the good were always saved where possible for ransom.
There is a record of my ancestor, Sir Allan de Buxhall KG being paid five hundred and three pounds and six pence reimbursement by the Crown in 1370 to cover money paid out by him to ransom men-at-arms and archers taken by the French
I think the strongest evidence is the folklore evidence. I learned this story from my Father and I know he had learned it as a boy from my Grandfather. This dates the story to the at least the 1930s. My Grandfather was born 1898, so his learning experience for a tale of this kind was only anecdotal; listening to his Father, playing with school friends, chatting with other men in barracks, trenches, pubs and factory canteens. If this is how this story is known to have passed from generation to generation then why not for the preceding 15 generations when this was the only means of learning for working class people.
Ƿes þu hal, min freond. What a wonderful way to start my day. As a proud Aussie, I can tell you that the two fingered salute was an integral part of my childhood! 🤣 Be well.
i loved that, you mot only supported your beliefs with research and irrefutable evidence but proved an expert wrong! we armchair experts are annoying, but i hope that the knowledge that you were right made it worthwhile
I'm pretty sure Winston knew exactly what he was doing, it's basically signaling FU, to our enemies. Can't imagine anything so shocking happening today, we'd have to provide safe spaces, immediate counselling, and instant removal from the battle to attend an awareness course in case someone is offended. 😆 Love your stories Kevin, you're a natural.
I learned the 'V' for victory from my Grandfather's books on WWII, in which there were pictures of Churchill doing the 'V' for victory sign. Then from the father of my 3 daughters who was from Belfast Northern Ireland I learned about the other one. It was funny, we were hitching for a ride on the side of the highway back in 1973, and a Army convoy was going along the highway in the opposite direction. The young soldiers giving us the 'V' for victory sign. Which I was returning and waving with a big smile on my face. But my guy at the time was moving his arm in an upward motion doing the 'V' sign backwards. Going "You too!" We sat down on the guard rail and I asked him what he was doing. He explained. I cracked up......I spent the next two hours explaining the difference of the 'V' sign that the army was doing. As well a number of other difference between our slang and his. But I cracked up over that one I must admit. And though I shouldn't admit this, if when I was driving and some smart jerk cut me off of some such thing. I would give them the English 'V' and I assure you it wasn't for Victory either.
Well, my point is that the French would've probably butchered the archers straight away rather than bothering with chopping some fingers off. I love to use that sign as an archer and also because not many people understand its meaning in continental Europe. :-)
There is a record of my ancestor, Sir Allan de Buxhall KG being paid five hundred and three pounds and six pence reimbursement by the Crown in 1370 to cover money paid out by him to ransom men-at-arms and archers taken by the French
@@geoffboxell9301 I totally believe you. I don't say it never happened but I just think there's not enough evidence to support this "V" theory. It's a great story though.
There is a reference to this hand gesture from before the 13th century: "The Miniatures of the Manuscripts of Terence prior to the 13th Century. Princeton, London, Leipzig, 1931, plates 77-80. The illustrations can also be found in the book "When a Gesture Was Expected", figure 19. Another source from the 17th century: Chirologia, or the Naturall Language of the Hand alongside a companion text Chironomia, or the Art of Manual Rhetoric.
I've seen "the two finger salute" as I've heard it called, when the back of the hand is showing used in some British sit-coms accompanied by the person blowing a raspberry (in the States, we call that noise "a Bronx cheer").
That was great "Come here you little bugger" I think olde Whinnie meant it when FLASHING THE V, P.S ALWAYS SAID TO ARE LASS I THINK KEV FROM HISTORY SQUAD IS A BRUM LAD AND YOU CONFIRMED IT IN YOUR VID, CHEERS SIR FOR ANOTHER EDUCATIONAL VID....WILL AND ELAINÀ🇮🇲👍🇮🇲👍🇮🇲
"If you're a subscriber, THUMBS UP!" Perhaps it's time to discuss the origin of that! Legend has it that the audience at gladiatorial combat exhibitions would 'thumbs up' (sword out) if they wanted death, and thumbs down (sword in scabbard) if they wanted to spare the loser.
Great comment, thanks. I've always believed that the thumbs up comes from jacking up your bow, the fistmel, but who knows for sure, just like the Vs 👍🏻
Perhaps the two finger salute was intended in reverence and turned into a mocking jibe? The history of finger salutes goes all the way back. Before the punic wars, the Phoenicians had a hand symbol where the buried the thumb, and extended the middle finger up to the knuckle. If you type phoenician hand amulet in to ebay, there is one for sale.
There might well be more to it yet. I am reminded of a story of an English gentleman who ventured out into Indian territory in the Northern US where the Indians often parlayed a bit with the French and sometimes fought with the French. He chanced to sit down to a meal with some of these Indians and in his soup he discovered part of a human finger. Was it inspired by French cooking? Who can say.....
@@thehistorysquad We here in the US go on a bit about the first Thanksgiving and the wonderful Indians who lived off the land, but the truth is that both the Indians and the English settlers spent a great deal of their time starving for many years. As for the Colonel, they do call also call KFC chicken 'finger food".
Well, I've tried trawling the internet on this one and it keeps coming back to the V sign being a gesture of 'we've still got our fingers, come get us!' 🤣
As an American of the Woodstock generation, this is just me speaking for myself, the V sign with the back of the hand showing forward was a sign of defiance (f-you implied); the v sign with the palm showing forward was the peace sign.
A Threat!! Awesome tidbit Kevin. Just scrolling through past episodes. Ps If I do that with my left hand. It’s an insult. My left index digit is mostly gone. Lol. (You may have noticed At the legion Kev😉) Cheers pal.
It has been my understanding that the only prisoners taken were those who could pay a ransom for their freedom. No archers would ever expect that they would become prisoners. For them, and others of mean estate, it was do or die.
Don't forget there were gentleman archers, who made their fortunes from the campaigns & could afford the ransom - the problem for them was proving it before they got topped!
There is a record of my ancestor, Sir Allan de Buxhall KG being paid five hundred and three pounds and six pence reimbursement by the Crown in 1370 to cover money paid out by him to ransom men-at-arms and archers taken by the French
Shakespeare refers to the symbol "give him the fig": "The precise form is to make a fist with your thumb thrust out between the index and middle fingers and bite the thumb" in Act 1 Scene 1 of Romeo and Juliet - I'm sure there were plenty more gestures than that used in Shakespeare's times and prior, Shakespeare being around in the twilight of the longbow era.
It doesn’t matter if it was real, a lot of legends aren’t based in reality and they still have an impact on us. I think it’s an awesome tale, real or not. As a side note why wouldn’t they just execute a captured archer rather than turn them loose?
Kevin, I Have been told ( or possibly read somewhere) that the 'Thumbs up ' Gesture, meaning 'All Good' also comes from Middle Ages archery. It is supposedly an indication that the brace height on your bow is correctly set.... I don't know if it's true but I use a thumbs up fist to check the brace height on my bows when shooting. Can you confirm ?
It was an instruction to switch from a parabola delivery to the linear. This archers secret was nearly lost to mankind because of Henry V vindictiveness towards the bowmen after Agincourt. Please note I did not call them archers, that is one of the noted but overlooked subliminal persuasions ever successfully used and is still prevalent, even today!
As an American, the V isn’t seen as a rude gesture, no matter which way your hand is facing. The middle finger takes its place. As an archery enthusiast however, I feel more of connection with the V. Like it’s my “archer’s f-you.”lol
Considering that Good Ol' Winnie posed with cigars and Thompson submachineguns and that the Axis Powers were propagandising almost every photo of him, I think he jolly well knew that he wasn't flashing the 'V' for victory sign!
Brilliant talk, love the videos. Like yourself I used to flick the Vs as a child. Also on OP Banner in the 90s. Also a question!! Did out legendary Bowman use heavy 🏹 arrows for distance and shooting into the wind? Something that has always got me thinking?? Cheers Justin
Hi Justin, thanks. You might want to take a look at the Battle of Towton, when looking at shooting arrows in the wind. I'll be covering Towton in a War of the Roses series after the Hundred Years War. 👍🏻
Symbols are a tricky one to decipher, since it depends on historical and cultural contexts. And not to mention personal interpretantions. I can only refer to my own area of expertise, yoga, where resent studies has shown that the lotus position, has little to do with spirtual practises and is rather a modern construct and interpretention. It suggests that the lotus position was instead a symbol indicating a figure as a god or king.
Please bear in mind that Schilling did not produce his Chronicle until 1513, almost a century after Agincourt and 50 after the end of the Hundred Years' War. The illustrations are also likely to be contemporareous to his writing, ie not based on direct observation. I have heard that the tale of the 2-finger Agincourt salute was not prevalent until the 1970s.
I also think its a way to measure distance??? Not sure how that works. Its also probably much older, but what it meant lost in time. Crusaders would cut thumbs off as thumb ring release was common with Saracen archers. Languages change, as do sign languages. Two fingers, two meanings, works for me. Churchill is supposed to have had boxes of condoms sent to the Soviet Union during WW2 stamped: "small".
As far as I am aware, anybody captured who had no money etc was killed. The only people kept alive were those who could pay a ransom, (King Richard was held in Vienna for 3 years until the ransom was paid), some were released on parole, which was a promise to pay the ransom. If a low born person captured a noble, they had to pass them on to someone of a higher standing than themselves to be ransomed..
There is a record of my ancestor, Sir Allan de Buxhall KG being paid five hundred and three pounds and six pence reimbursement by the Crown in 1370 to cover money paid out by him to ransom men-at-arms and archers taken by the French
Dont know about Churchills two finger salute Kev ,but he was well known for his wit. on getting off a plane i think it was a woman declared he was drunk, to those about her ,he replied yes madam and you are ugly .but tomorrow i shall be sober ! whereas you will still be ugly . Salu tay as Frankie Howard used to say lol.
There is no way that Winston Churchill wouldn't have been fully aware of the meaning of the sign. And he certainly wasn't above insulting people if they deserved it. One of my favorite stories from his life is that he is at a fancy dinner. As the dinner progressed it became somewhat obvious that he was in his cups. A woman mentioned the obvious to him "Sir! You are drunk!' " While I may be drunk, you, madam, are ugly, and tomorrow I shall wake up sober..."
Hahah, I love that story Peter, it was Lady Astor he insulted, and it's a classic isn't it. I'm also of the opinion he was damn sure he knew which way he wanted his V to face. 😉
Better one was Mrs Roosevelt..She said...” If I were your wife I would poison you”
To which he replied...” Madam,if I was your husband,I would gladly drink it!”
@@waynedaly1718 That was to Lady Astor not Mrs. Roosevelt
Lady Astor they hated each other
The speech Churchill gave about ‘we shall fight them on the beaches, we shall never surrender’… well, all the words used in that speech were of English origination EXCEPT for one word: Surrender. Which is a French word. And Churchill would have known this when he composed it, as he was an expert on the English language. Very sly of him!
SO GLAD to hear that the two finger gesture is a historical fact ! I never use anything else when I wish to make a point to someone I dislike ! It's a truly English thing ! Thanks for the video.
Great talk. Thanks. We'll still be debating this in 100 years time! I'm not convinced that the mediaeval sketch proves the case one way or another. But it's certainly a worthy discussion point. Thanks again Kevin.
I agree it's open to interpretation and that one is just mine, I love it 😉
My mom always told me this story when she took an exchange trip to Britain she thought all the locals were giving her peace signs😂
This channel is going to be fucking huge once the algorithm finally kicks in.
Haha, we hope so 😉. Thanks 👍🏻
I've always believed the "V" was the English showing the French they had their bow fingers, and basically saying you know what to expect! Great find regarding the picture, is it online to view?
I've added a link/reference to the picture in the description now 👍🏻
And the French could do the “V” right back at the English for victory because they were the ones who actually won that war lmao
Maybe its V for Henry the V th
It’s total fabrication, the picture of slingers doesn’t have anything to do with V bowman’s fingers. Sorry.
@@damianthebeholder6775 laughing at your own ‘jokes’ are we? 🙄
I found your comments most amusing, Kevin. I have always understood that origin of the V-sign referred to the Bowmens' fingers and the dastardly Frenchies' habit of lopping them off. I am greatly pleased to note your evidence of this - well done sir! I shall proudly continue to display our traditional English sign of defiance in honour of our brave Bowmen!
😃
Getting the two finger flash from an English archer, just before he sent a steel tipped clothyard arrow flying at your head, must have been infuriating to a French nobleman, especially when the Frenchman was insulted by the very presence of yeoman archers on the field of his chivalric endeavor, which was of course to murder any English knight he could engage with the traditional, extreme violence. All that money spent on armor, and all those years of training and fighting to become the killing machine of his age, only to have that brought to naught by some hairy eared commoner with a 170 pound longbow. Quelle horreur!
Absolutely Boyd 😜
Thanks for watching.
Chivalry (chivalric) this makes me laugh. However I enjoyed your input.
@@BoJangles3105 You must understand that the principles of chivalry only applied to those that the French knights deemed their sort, which is to say other minor nobility and their betters. Commoners were frowned upon, if for no other reason than they were able to kill Frenchmen who were "above their station". No true French knight would ever consider taking an English bowman prisoner; that was reserved for the select few worthies who they might actually profit from.
It is also true that French knights and men-at-arms spent their entire lives, from adolescence on, in training for war, and were murderously efficient in their trade. They were the Tiger tanks of their day, immune from almost anything their peers could deploy against them, and it was galling for them to realize that some yokel armed with a stave of wood and a string could unhorse and kill them.
I don't speak of the code of chivalry, as actually practiced in 14th and 15th century Europe, in any terms other than scorn and mockery.
170 LB would have been the exception rather than the rule. At what is currently regarded as the height of the bows development, Mary Rose bows were on average worked out to be around 120 LB draw weight. As for bowmen (Bowman rather than archer) killing enemy in plate armour, that was done more with bollock daggers, hammers, axes.
@@750triton That is likely true. But there would have been exceptional archers who could, and did, use bows of greater than average weight, and who would have especially offended a French man-at-arms for his effrontery...LOL
You say potato, I say 'tater, so there's that. What was the archer's primary weapon again?
I have always understood the 'V' sign to come from the English archers. It was basically saying to the French, "Look! I've still got my two fingers and you know what's coming at you very soon!".
thats what i was thinking, when did it became that?
Fantastic as always...... 10 years with the army I used that quite often lol I have always told the V story as the old bowman story and always will .... cheers
Me too - thanks for watching 👍🏻
I had recently heard the same about flipping the "V" and thought that doesn't sound right, after all I see it in plenty of movies and it had to come from somewhere. I'm so glad you found a historical piece of artwork that clearly shows it.
Cheers Mike - It's from Charles de Bold Chronicles about the Burgundian wars. The image is also on P.56 of the Ospray Warrior Series 'English Longbowman' 😉
Flicking the v's.
@@neilkift2144 Well, I guess that's better than Flipping the Bird!
@@thehistorysquad Thanks for the source. THere might be a little confirmation bias in this interpretation. Neither of the figures are making the classic fist with two extended figers. Their thumbs are extended. They could simply be pointing.
@@stevenschwartzhoff1703 it could also be simply illustrating the position the hand takes immediately after loosing an arrow
Grandma: You're hardened, you little bugger! Kevin VVVV!
🤣
Brilliant video as always, Kevin. As for the V sign, I think it's far older than the Hundred Years War, probably back into antiquity such as the Roman period. Having been in the services yourself, you know how things have a habit of becoming adopted, particularly insulting gestures towards your enemy! So, I have no doubt that the bowmen and soldiers in general used the sign, but I don't think they actually invented it, but were carrying on a tradition that was by then ingrained into their makeup.
Thanks watching & for your comment Andrew - it's a great point for sure 👍🏻
@@thehistorysquad I think it's a nice way to say f you to people. Like the Southern 'Bless Your Heart.'
I always thought that flashing the ‘v’ s was as well as an insult, was a defiant challenge. One can imagine proud archers facing their enemies standing tall fingers raised to say ‘ f you want them, come get ‘em, I dare you ! ‘
Love it!
Just discovered your channel, loved the video on the arrow removal on Henry the v. Amazing someone could survive such a procedure,let alone an injury of that nature, fantastic!
Cheers Will 👍🏻
I watched season four of Buffy the Vampire Slayer when I was a kid. Well, in the intro credits, there was Spike giving the V symbol. To us Americans, we thought we was just saying how many drinks he had. Years later, I found out that that intro clip and scene in that episode was cut out completely in Britain because it pretty much was the same as flipping the bird. Just wild.
I had a Brummie grandmother born in the latter part of the 19th century, formidable little creatures but greatly loved.
A very easy 'subscribe’.
Hahaha, cheers Mark.
I'm from kinver, south staffs, saw you at Warwick castle, my daughter still talks about you and the rat catcher to this day, thank you for the memories.
Oh wow, you're very welcome - you should share our videos with her 😉
Great to hear you again. I always loved photographing your 'lessons' at Millfield school. I learnt more about history from them than I ever did at school!!
Hey Titch, when were you a student there?
The question is, when did the middle finger become an insult, and occasionally an act of defiance? Remember the crew of the USS Pueblo captured by the North Koreans in January 1968. In a group photo taken by their captors, they raised the middle finger in a mocking salute to their North Korean captors, who were told the middle finger was an American sign of respect toward a benefactor.
I think the middle inger is a US originating insult, Here in the midlands in 'UK, England, GB, UKGBNI' I preer England personally; the middle inger seems to be replacing the V that I always used liked to use as a kid, I'm rom Nuneaton, where the geder conused George Eliot is rom. I've not licked the V to another road user or years, always the middle inger. Sorry, as you might notice, one o my keyboard keys is broken due to tea spillage!
Beautifully condensed information. Only possible when someome ( Kevin!! ) is very very very well informed. eloquent and down to earth. Really to enjoy . Makes my day.
Wow, thank you! Much appreciated. 👍🏻
Great stuff, I love hearing about some of the little stuff in history like an old medieval insult/challenge
Goes without saying...both thumbs firmly up on every video buddy!! 🙂👍🏽👍🏽
Thank you so much 😀
Mainlander here. I guess the tale of the bowman-origin makes perfect sense. I have adapted that gesture for myself. It's a nice camouflage for a middle finger when it's due as well! 🤗
Good info to know....facing one way an insult, palm out sign of victory! Whoa! Sure gives one a whole new perspective on that!
Thank you for your wealth of information and research! I absolutely love your channel! I am in the US but have always been a history buff
I have just come across your channel and absolutely love it !
Cheers, Saxon
Awesome, thank you, and welcome aboard Saxon!
Quite an amusing Q&A, always wondered about this myself
Some day we'll find a well preserved bog body of a distant ancestor doing a two fingered salute, it goes back that far.
do you know why we love you, because your crazy in a really nice kind of way. no insult intended it just came to me like a smile.
history squad is great. thank yew kevin. thank you kevin for sharing the fun and sometimes horror of your knowledge. respectfully gary.
Wow, thank you Gary, no offence taken!
My first memory of the two fingered salute my dad, during road rage.
Flashing the two fingers threatened makes most sense to me.
I was taught to shoot in the Longbow by an old gadgy from East Yorkshire Kevin, we used two fingers "Flemish" loose, also the best bowstrings came from Flanders.
👍🏻 That would make sense because of the production of flaxen linen there
Really appreciate the reply! Its great to see pictorial evidence on the question as well. It makes me smile to think of thousands of longbowmen all flicking the V's to the French 😃✌
Glad you enjoyed it Sid! Thanks for the question 😉
Kevin Hicks once again giving us Englishmen a reason to put up two righteous fingers to all! Never knew there was a picture though! Great video as always Kevin :)
Glad you enjoyed it - cheers very much 👍🏻
Always find your presentations very interesting. Keep them coming.
Thanks, will do!
It's always good to be able to show doubters "the receipts" (as the current term for documentary evidence is called). I'm glad you got some vindication, in any event. I do want to point out that a "rude" gesture can mean different things to different folks; those bowmen might have adapted an older, more bawdy gesture (the extended fingers possibly representing a woman's legs) for their own use in defiance against French finger-choppers. =^[.]^=
Haha, you sussed me out 😂
Kevin Hicks is class, he tells us about dirty side and good side.
This is brilliant.
I just found this channel a couple days ago.
I got into medieval history by playing Dungeons and Dragons in the eighties. I had heard very early on that ‘ Flipping the bird ‘ had been invented by British longbowmen ( have to say British, so I don’t get a Welshman saying. ‘ well , actually.. ‘ ) only with two fingers , having a basic knowledge of archery thanks to Erol Flynn’s ‘ Robin of Sherwood’ and a suction cup arrow Lone Ranger bow set , I thought that the fingers were together, not spread out .
As for Churchill I believe he knew exactly what he was doing, didn’t give a damn , and if he could insult people while pretending not to he would.
Speaking of Churchill, any thoughts on doing a video on Mad Jack , who apparently thought the Germans were French and that he was fighting the Hundred Years’ War?
Hey Phil, I started in exactly the same way with the bow and I like your 'British' comment too...........welcome to my world 😉
Definitely giving Mad jack some thought, he's a man I'd like to have known.
great excitement, well told Kevin. Next time I'm at Turf Moor and the Villans beat us.....I will offer the gesture with pride ;-)
Hahaha - nice!
A polite British way of flipping the bird
Thanks Kevin ..... You keep it real ..... Keep them coming.
Cheers Robert 👍🏻
I could listen to you talk all day. When were you in the military sir? I was regular army (US) 81-85, and got to work with alot of brits during reforger. Good guys!
Thank you very much!
I was RMP and I worked with the Yanks, back in the olden days on Checkpoint Alpha on the East/West German border 😉
@@thehistorysquad I wanted to join the RMP when I was 18. I went to the army careers office, told them as much and the recruiting Sergeant spat into a dustbin..
Very disconcerting for a young lad from the shires… 😱
I ended up joining the British Transport Police instead.. 🙂 only because I had an application in with them as well as the RMP and the BTP got me first…
Two thumbs up for this show. Thanks!
Great explanation, as always 😀 Love your videos for that special way you explain history ✌️
Thank you so much 😀
Thanks for finding facts. Fantastic channel.
"The Great Steve Baker" may his memory always be a blessing.
Absolutely, he's still in my thoughts.
I have read a couple of books regarding the Hundred Years’ War and it was well documented that if the French captured bowmen they would first remove their two fingers, then their eyes , and then bits that make babies and leave them to bleed to death and the English war captains would make sure that all the archers knew exactly what would happen if they fell into enemy hands.
The great and the good were always saved where possible for ransom.
Good thing they chose the fingers as the insult.
There is a record of my ancestor, Sir Allan de Buxhall KG being paid five hundred and three pounds and six pence reimbursement by the Crown in 1370 to cover money paid out by him to ransom men-at-arms and archers taken by the French
I think the strongest evidence is the folklore evidence. I learned this story from my Father and I know he had learned it as a boy from my Grandfather. This dates the story to the at least the 1930s. My Grandfather was born 1898, so his learning experience for a tale of this kind was only anecdotal; listening to his Father, playing with school friends, chatting with other men in barracks, trenches, pubs and factory canteens. If this is how this story is known to have passed from generation to generation then why not for the preceding 15 generations when this was the only means of learning for working class people.
I'm with you there, thanks 👍🏻
Another well presented video Kevin, true or false about the ‘V’ sign we’ve all used it and will probably continue to do so ✌🏻
So true 👍🏻
Part of our makeup in England .Churchill was indeed sending a message to Hitler F off. Love it brilliant.
Cheers Paul 👍🏻
Ƿes þu hal, min freond.
What a wonderful way to start my day.
As a proud Aussie, I can tell you that the two fingered salute was an integral part of my childhood! 🤣
Be well.
Haha - good on ya mate 😉
Thanks
i loved that, you mot only supported your beliefs with research and irrefutable evidence but proved an expert wrong! we armchair experts are annoying, but i hope that the knowledge that you were right made it worthwhile
I'm pretty sure Winston knew exactly what he was doing, it's basically signaling FU, to our enemies. Can't imagine anything so shocking happening today, we'd have to provide safe spaces, immediate counselling, and instant removal from the battle to attend an awareness course in case someone is offended. 😆
Love your stories Kevin, you're a natural.
Hahaha, Philip I'm still laughing at your comment - so funny 🤣🤣🤣
Thanks again for watching 👍🏻
Donald trump wouldn’t be above doing something like that
@@davidware8496 that's why we love em
@@lokiwartooth1138 that’s certainly one of the reasons
What a find! Great channel👍
Thanks John, welcome aboard!
Just came across Your channel ,Good stuff keep it up.
Thanks Mr B, will do!
This video put me into a giggle fit at work. My co workers kept giving me weird looks so I gave them a "V" salute. *unlady like snort and chortle *
🤣 nice
I'm so glad this channels doing well congratulations on 50k subscribers ☺👍
Thank you so much 😀 I'm feeling pretty chuffed.
Always great content :) Thank you!
My pleasure!
😂🤣✌🏼such fun.
Love your wee channel. 🏹😊
Cheers!
I learned the 'V' for victory from my Grandfather's books on WWII, in which there were pictures of Churchill doing the 'V' for victory sign. Then from the father of my 3 daughters who was from Belfast Northern Ireland I learned about the other one. It was funny, we were hitching for a ride on the side of the highway back in 1973, and a Army convoy was going along the highway in the opposite direction. The young soldiers giving us the 'V' for victory sign. Which I was returning and waving with a big smile on my face. But my guy at the time was moving his arm in an upward motion doing the 'V' sign backwards. Going "You too!" We sat down on the guard rail and I asked him what he was doing. He explained. I cracked up......I spent the next two hours explaining the difference of the 'V' sign that the army was doing. As well a number of other difference between our slang and his. But I cracked up over that one I must admit. And though I shouldn't admit this, if when I was driving and some smart jerk cut me off of some such thing. I would give them the English 'V' and I assure you it wasn't for Victory either.
Haha, you made me laugh 😂
Well, my point is that the French would've probably butchered the archers straight away rather than bothering with chopping some fingers off. I love to use that sign as an archer and also because not many people understand its meaning in continental Europe. :-)
True, but i know of it, since i was a little boy, because my dad told me. Love the archers
There is a record of my ancestor, Sir Allan de Buxhall KG being paid five hundred and three pounds and six pence reimbursement by the Crown in 1370 to cover money paid out by him to ransom men-at-arms and archers taken by the French
@@geoffboxell9301 I totally believe you. I don't say it never happened but I just think there's not enough evidence to support this "V" theory. It's a great story though.
There is a reference to this hand gesture from before the 13th century: "The Miniatures of the Manuscripts of Terence prior to the 13th Century. Princeton, London, Leipzig, 1931, plates 77-80. The illustrations can also be found in the book "When a Gesture Was Expected", figure 19. Another source from the 17th century: Chirologia, or the Naturall Language of the Hand alongside a companion text Chironomia, or the Art of Manual Rhetoric.
Wow, that's great Jody, thanks for those sources, I'll see if I can find them. 👍🏻
What an awesome video. Thank you. You are number 1
Wow, thank you! Much appreciated. 👍🏻
I've seen "the two finger salute" as I've heard it called, when the back of the hand is showing used in some British sit-coms accompanied by the person blowing a raspberry (in the States, we call that noise "a Bronx cheer").
😂
That was great "Come here you little bugger" I think olde Whinnie meant it when FLASHING THE V, P.S ALWAYS SAID TO ARE LASS I THINK KEV FROM HISTORY SQUAD IS A BRUM LAD AND YOU CONFIRMED IT IN YOUR VID, CHEERS SIR FOR ANOTHER EDUCATIONAL VID....WILL AND ELAINÀ🇮🇲👍🇮🇲👍🇮🇲
😜
Fun as always..I’ve always believed it was an act of defiance towards the French. Great as always.
Cheers Wayne 👍🏻
An. Enjoyable and fun video…thanks!
You're welcome, thanks for watching 👍🏻
"If you're a subscriber, THUMBS UP!" Perhaps it's time to discuss the origin of that! Legend has it that the audience at gladiatorial combat exhibitions would 'thumbs up' (sword out) if they wanted death, and thumbs down (sword in scabbard) if they wanted to spare the loser.
Great comment, thanks. I've always believed that the thumbs up comes from jacking up your bow, the fistmel, but who knows for sure, just like the Vs 👍🏻
Just found your channel and who doesnt love an old man telling stories? By the way, how many costumes do you have for these videos? Love it!!
Thanks Jessica, I just have a couple of costumes, but lots of stories 👍🏻
1970's "V" sign palm facing away from the displayer stood for PEACE in the USA and among most youths in the western world.
Yeah, that's because it went from V for Victory over the nazis to meaning peace due to the end of WWII.
Perhaps the two finger salute was intended in reverence and turned into a mocking jibe?
The history of finger salutes goes all the way back. Before the punic wars, the Phoenicians had a hand symbol where the buried the thumb, and extended the middle finger up to the knuckle. If you type phoenician hand amulet in to ebay, there is one for sale.
There might well be more to it yet. I am reminded of a story of an English gentleman who ventured out into Indian territory in the Northern US where the Indians often parlayed a bit with the French and sometimes fought with the French. He chanced to sit down to a meal with some of these Indians and in his soup he discovered part of a human finger. Was it inspired by French cooking? Who can say.....
My goodness, what a story - is that where Col Sanders got his tag line 'finger licking good' 😜
@@thehistorysquad We here in the US go on a bit about the first Thanksgiving and the wonderful Indians who lived off the land, but the truth is that both the Indians and the English settlers spent a great deal of their time starving for many years. As for the Colonel, they do call also call KFC chicken 'finger food".
Well, I've tried trawling the internet on this one and it keeps coming back to the V sign being a gesture of 'we've still got our fingers, come get us!' 🤣
Nice one Rob - love it!
Little Hicks being chased by his grandma 😂 and giving his grandma the V.
😜
Love this. Nowadays though it's more commonly seen in driving altercations.
It’s means “I still got my fingers while driving!” Try and explain that to the road cops!! Lol
As an American of the Woodstock generation, this is just me speaking for myself, the V sign with the back of the hand showing forward was a sign of defiance (f-you implied); the v sign with the palm showing forward was the peace sign.
'Flashing the V' sounds naughty.
Great video. Great channel.
Thank you very much Euan, I hope you stick around 👍🏻
You ain't got my fingers you silly Frenchies!
A Threat!!
Awesome tidbit Kevin.
Just scrolling through past episodes.
Ps
If I do that with my left hand. It’s an insult.
My left index digit is mostly gone. Lol.
(You may have noticed At the legion Kev😉)
Cheers pal.
Yeah I did notice - use your other hand 😜
My Dad lost the same finger and he used to tell us kids that he lost the end picking his nose.
It has been my understanding that the only prisoners taken were those who could pay a ransom for their freedom. No archers would ever expect that they would become prisoners. For them, and others of mean estate, it was do or die.
Don't forget there were gentleman archers, who made their fortunes from the campaigns & could afford the ransom - the problem for them was proving it before they got topped!
There is a record of my ancestor, Sir Allan de Buxhall KG being paid five hundred and three pounds and six pence reimbursement by the Crown in 1370 to cover money paid out by him to ransom men-at-arms and archers taken by the French
Shakespeare refers to the symbol "give him the fig": "The precise form is to make a fist with your thumb thrust out between the index and middle fingers and bite the thumb" in Act 1 Scene 1 of Romeo and Juliet - I'm sure there were plenty more gestures than that used in Shakespeare's times and prior, Shakespeare being around in the twilight of the longbow era.
Nice comment, thanks 👍🏻
Just learned a new insult I can use while driving. Thank you! ✌️😂
Any time!
It doesn’t matter if it was real, a lot of legends aren’t based in reality and they still have an impact on us. I think it’s an awesome tale, real or not. As a side note why wouldn’t they just execute a captured archer rather than turn them loose?
Kevin, I Have been told ( or possibly read somewhere) that the 'Thumbs up ' Gesture, meaning 'All Good' also comes from Middle Ages archery. It is supposedly an indication that the brace height on your bow is correctly set....
I don't know if it's true but I use a thumbs up fist to check the brace height on my bows when shooting.
Can you confirm ?
Yes indeed, it's called a fistmel and you're bang on 👍🏻
I think I've mentioned it here ua-cam.com/video/GbINsn5EVg4/v-deo.html
It was an instruction to switch from a parabola delivery to the linear. This archers secret was nearly lost to mankind because of Henry V vindictiveness towards the bowmen after Agincourt. Please note I did not call them archers, that is one of the noted but overlooked subliminal persuasions ever successfully used and is still prevalent, even today!
👍🏻
As an American, the V isn’t seen as a rude gesture, no matter which way your hand is facing. The middle finger takes its place. As an archery enthusiast however, I feel more of connection with the V. Like it’s my “archer’s f-you.”lol
Given Churchills great knowledge of history, which the Churchills seem to have maintained, I suspect old Winston knew exactly what he was doing
Considering that Good Ol' Winnie posed with cigars and Thompson submachineguns and that the Axis Powers were propagandising almost every photo of him, I think he jolly well knew that he wasn't flashing the 'V' for victory sign!
Brilliant talk, love the videos. Like yourself I used to flick the Vs as a child. Also on OP Banner in the 90s.
Also a question!! Did out legendary Bowman use heavy 🏹 arrows for distance and shooting into the wind? Something that has always got me thinking?? Cheers Justin
Hi Justin, thanks.
You might want to take a look at the Battle of Towton, when looking at shooting arrows in the wind. I'll be covering Towton in a War of the Roses series after the Hundred Years War. 👍🏻
I always thought knuckles out held steady was V for victory. Moving the hand up and down meant “Up yours”. Knuckles in is the “Peace sign “
Symbols are a tricky one to decipher, since it depends on historical and cultural contexts. And not to mention personal interpretantions. I can only refer to my own area of expertise, yoga, where resent studies has shown that the lotus position, has little to do with spirtual practises and is rather a modern construct and interpretention. It suggests that the lotus position was instead a symbol indicating a figure as a god or king.
Please bear in mind that Schilling did not produce his Chronicle until 1513, almost a century after Agincourt and 50 after the end of the Hundred Years' War. The illustrations are also likely to be contemporareous to his writing, ie not based on direct observation. I have heard that the tale of the 2-finger Agincourt salute was not prevalent until the 1970s.
Good as gode, as ever my ode ; )
I also think its a way to measure distance??? Not sure how that works.
Its also probably much older, but what it meant lost in time.
Crusaders would cut thumbs off as thumb ring release was common with Saracen archers.
Languages change, as do sign languages.
Two fingers, two meanings, works for me.
Churchill is supposed to have had boxes of condoms sent to the Soviet Union during WW2 stamped: "small".
HAHA - thanks for sharing your nuggets of info there, brilliant 👍🏻
the way i understood it was if the back of your hand is away from you its an insult if the palm of your hand is away from you it means victory
As far as I am aware, anybody captured who had no money etc was killed. The only people kept alive were those who could pay a ransom, (King Richard was held in Vienna for 3 years until the ransom was paid), some were released on parole, which was a promise to pay the ransom. If a low born person captured a noble, they had to pass them on to someone of a higher standing than themselves to be ransomed..
There is a record of my ancestor, Sir Allan de Buxhall KG being paid five hundred and three pounds and six pence reimbursement by the Crown in 1370 to cover money paid out by him to ransom men-at-arms and archers taken by the French
Maybe the V fingers was the Medieval version of ''the shocker.''
Dont know about Churchills two finger salute Kev ,but he was well known for his wit. on getting off a plane i think it was a woman declared he was drunk, to those about her ,he replied yes madam and you are ugly .but tomorrow i shall be sober ! whereas you will still be ugly . Salu tay as Frankie Howard used to say lol.
That woman was Lady Astor.....I love that quote, it's a classic 😉
Churchill. Cigar. Two fingers with back of the hand turned towards viewer.