Our ILLEGAL Beethoven Symphonies APPLAUDED
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- Опубліковано 15 жов 2024
- In this video, I discuss both the positive and negative impacts of the internet. While it offers incredible access to information, it also brings out negative behaviors, particularly in the anonymous world of online comments. I usually ignore these, but I'm addressing a specific incident involving a UA-cam channel, "Piano For Life," which illegally downloaded and altered our recordings of Beethoven's symphonies. This person changed the tempo and pitch, and then re-uploaded the altered versions, claiming they sound better. I explain the historical inaccuracies and flaws in his approach and emphasize the importance of respecting original compositions and legal boundaries. Additionally, I touch on the broader challenges musicians face with change and the significance of maintaining integrity in our work.
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I can see where the reaction of our colleague Mr.Egarr comes from. Behind every emotion there is a series of thoughts that causes that particular feeling and what he is probably experiencing is absolutely valid. But here is the thing: not all emotions are justified. I can only assume what kind of thought process brought him to make such comment towards us in such video, but we musicians should certainly give a better example of mutual respect, even when we do not share the same paths or adopt the same solutions, because there is place for everyone on this planet. Having said that, the door for Mr.Egarr is always open as for all our colleagues and we do hope to be invited to a symposium to takle the problem and find a solution...because there must be one right? And if it's not ours, we are happy to welcome any other one, as long as we can practically apply it in front of a piano, with no compromises and theoretically reconstruct it.
In what sense is Richard Egarr a colleague of yours? Do you belong to any of the orchestras he has directed, the Academy of Ancient Music, for example?
@@DismasZelenka All musicians are colleagues, in fact siblings. Music, similar to acting and dance belongs to the living fine arts which must be recreated to exist, be it classic(cal) music or any other genre. Some siblings get along better with others as human beings we have personalities (and egoes) different values and goals. I found many, folk, country, and rock musicians to treat each other regardless of race, religious creed or lack there of for the working musician (as opposed to super stars) to be very free thinking with mutual respect.
In the "Classical World" (for lack of a better pidgeon hole), some musicians deeply value historical authenticity while others musicians deeply value personal expression over composers’ intentions. Some prefer showmanship rather than historical accuracy. Jordi Savall’s theatrics for his performance of Monteverdis Orfeo provides an example of the latter. With an open canvas and the exceptionally rare for its time list of instruments for most if not each movement, Saval omitted many of the specified instruments for this large work, including the two large harpsichords , the two regals (reed organs), the Vilolin Piccolo, the use of violins instead of violas…I could go on. he dressed in a period custumes, walked down the theater's center aisle for a grand entrance much more for theatrical showmanship than historical recreation. Wendy Carlos's Synthesized version of the orchestral from the Well Tempered Synthesizer had less pretense, and in my opinion caught the spirit of the orchestral pieces in terms than Saval.
I realize that there economics, practicalities and compromises present among groups that are authentic instruments for this genere chamber orchestras. Natural Trumpets with tuning holes, Baroque Violins played with modern bows. And there is inclusion (non discriminatory employment practices). However, even in with performances of a Baroque chamber orchestra of J S Bach’s Cantatas, those that infer to be (on some level of) historically informed (performance) practice, there's a perponderance of lowering the bar compromise where historical accuracy is involved.
cont'd The Pitch a=415 or a=430 is wrong; Leipzig tuned not to a which was some where between a=420 and 422…his churches Chorton was nearer a= 440 and not a=430. In Cantatas supported by an organ or with a concertato organ part J S Bach wrote the organ part as a transposing instrument, this is quite obvious in the scores. J S Bach had at most times only 1 and rarely 2 singers per part in front of the instrumental musicians, and not a large choir sufficient in number to perform a Handel Oratorio supported by the instrumentalists of a similar size) and possibly some adult soloists. (Frequently this modern practice is scene in church performances or large concert halls) Instead of Bach's one instrument per part, school age boys (although School age girls would not sound noticeably different if equality is a more important concern than historical accuracy) with possibly an older boy singer in the alto part or adult countertenor, a tenor, and bass as J S Bach had to make due with the meager and sometimes inadequate musicians/singers at his disposal. There was a culture of Women did not sing in the choir loft (Bach was admonished earler in his career for a "Strange young lady" singing in the choir loft...and as the writer knew that J S Bach's cousin also lived in the same building as J S Bach and well known in that town...besides Bach being called to task going to the churches wine cellar to get a drink during a church service)
Not to sound similar to a broken record, if you are old enough to know the term, compromise is a slippery slope. Continuo parts where back in the day for chamber music played ubiquitously upon harpsichords, and either a Gamba, Cello, or String Bass (Violine). Today, to fill a large venue, one sees a continuo organ (unheard of use as the continuo organ is a 20th century invention), Archlute, Lute, Baroque Guitar, and although this perfectly okay, but the harpsichord is so frequently glaringly absent, almost to the point of a conspiracy against the instrument. I have come across on UA-cam a video with J S Bach’s 5th Brandenburg Concerto, fortunately being played on a Harpsichord, the continuo organ in the background Ttacet, but in the orchestra the lute player switched over to a Baroque Guitar strumming away…there was no guitar or lute player at the Court orchestra of Prince Anhalt-Coethen. A guitarist/lutenist could just as well sat that one out. Yes the music got out there, but was it really historical informed performance (HIP) practice?
continued-How does this relate? Well if J S. Bach ever performed no 5 Brandenburg Concertos at Zimmerman’s Cafe it wasn’t at a=415 as in the Performance on YT. If later in the Coffee House performances it would have been played upon a Zacharias Hildebrandt Harpsichord and not Silbermann Fortepiano as proprietor Herr Zimmermann died, the coffee shop closed, before Gottfried Silbermann perfected his Fortepiano and gained Bach’s approval and began selling the instruments to the wealthy, royal, and famous clients. Yet Eva Badura-Skoda maintains that a Fortepiano was used in Zimmermann's establishment based on a 1732 Leipzig newpaper annoucement of an expressive harpsichord (no mention of builder) which could have easily been a two manual instrument harpsichord from the description, no mention of the instrument built by the illustrious and famous Organ builder Gottfried Silbermann, who wasn't based or visiting Leipzig, Silbermann worked out of Freiburg (closer to Switzerland than St Thomas) 400+ miles to the South, confirmation bias on steroids by the piano mafia...similar to the Author best known for his manuscript collection in the U.K. Edward Francis Rimbault The Pianoforte, its Orign, Progress and Concstruction (published by Crooks, London in 1860) maintained that every term mentioned by Walter and Matthesohn in J S Bach's era before and afterward referred to fortepiano besides the accepted terms he included "cembalo, clavicembalo, clavecin, instrument (this dates from Praetorius in 1600 railing against the generic term for musical instruments were the harpsichord/spinet were so popular that the common slang for it was "instrument), Fluegel (Wing, still used by CPE Bach for the grand form of the harpsichord vs fortepiano in his 1788 concerto for Harpsichord and Fortepiano in the score; Sarah Levy, the Great Aunt of Felix Mendelssohn and student of W F Bach commissioned the work and would play in the 19th century in Leipzig circa 1830s) and as well the Generic Clavier. Yes, I do have a tendency to digress.
cont'd How is this relevant? Many individuals with an interest in musicology, appropo performance practice and a sincere interest and curiosity want to recreate composers' intentions and fidelity to the above want to perform as close as humanly, financially, and historically want to recreate a composition as the composer intended, heard (or Beethoven's case had heard and continued in his tonal memory). This involves historical tunings (keyboard instruments), historical pitches (Dr, Vahé Aslanian, PhD, my music history teacher) recalled singing the tenor part in a Beethoven vocal work, having to sing the c and the d an octave above middle c, which in a=440 is impossible for most tenors, I could only hit this note by falsetto at the time, in context with as Wim Winters mentioned Vienna lower pitch might not have recquired the herculean effort my instructor described. And then there's historical tempo reconstruction, which even those such as Sir Adras Schiff seem to ignore with aplomb. (I do admire his abilities in bringing out tone color, but he does play tempos (faster) the audience expects and won't chastise a student in a master class for using the pianos pedal). As to what the audience expects, another analogy, this from the non-recreated arts.The Sistine Chapel north of St. Peter's Basilica and completed in about 1481. Its walls, decorated by a number of Renaissance painters the most highly regarded artists of late 15th century Italy, including Ghirlandaio, Perugino, and Botticelli, subsequently the painting of the ceiling by Michelangelo finished in 1512, the painting of the Last Judgment, commissioned by Pope completed in 1541. Together the paintings rank among the most notable works of Western art ever created. In 1979, the restoration of the Sistine Chapel began and eventually finished after 1999.The removal of centuries of candle smoke, earlier overpainting (touching up the images), etc. were how the majority of visitors knew and all their lives had viewed and remembered the work.Upon unveiling and re-opening the completed restoration...the general public was aghast and criticism among the professionals occured..."When the restoration of the Sistine Chapel was announced, it sparked a barrage of queries and objections from art historians around the world." "There seems little doubt that the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel was in part painted a secco (that is, once the plaster was dry), but the restorers none the less decided that radical cleaning was necessary, given the amount of dirt that had accumulated (in particular from candle smoke). As a result the ceiling now has a curiously washed-out look, with pretty but flavourless colouring - an effect quite unlike that of Michelangelo's intensely sensual sculpture." "That part of the restoration in the Sistine Chapel which has caused the most concern is the ceiling, painted by Michelangelo. The emergence of the brightly coloured Ancestors of Christ from the gloom sparked a reaction of fear that the processes being employed in the cleaning were too severe."" A decision was made that all of the shadowy layer of animal glue and "lamp black", all of the wax, and all of the overpainted areas were contamination of one sort or another: smoke deposits, earlier restoration attempts and painted definition by later restorers in attempt to enliven the appearance of the work. Based on this decision, according to Arguimbau's critical reading of the restoration data that has been provided, the chemists of the restoration team decided upon a solvent that would effectively strip the ceiling down to its paint-impregnated plaster. After treatment, only that which was painted "buon fresco" would remain." Others maintained that Michaelangelo would have touched up on the dry plaster.
I must apologize first and foremost, since I couldn't resist to pause this video and quickly go and listen to the Finale of the 9th Symphony in your Bandcamp.
At the moment I can't financially support your project, but I wanted to let you know I am in tears. Not even talking about tempo here. Even with the low audio quality, the recording on Bandcamp is beautiful. The dynamics, the accents, the harmony and, of course the piano and singers!
I am going to buy the box as soon as I can!
Wow, nasty scummy person. probably a sociopath, have to be careful with these types.
That’s straight up content stealing. I hope UA-cam takes down his video for STEALING your recordings. Love and support, Wim, I have the 10 cds and I am so happy with them.
Maestro Wim!. keep up the great work!.
Hate can be addictive, and when you do it together with others, it can feel like friendship, like community. It's unfortunate that so many people are caught by this.
Apparently the spirit of the times. This diseaset is called 'woke' and can be noticed in all areas of society.
The single beat only people are surprisingly passionate about their position. The need to hold on to personal preferences and prejudices in intellectual matters is very powerful. 'Twas ever thus.
Apart from hearing the results (many of your tempi remind me of the old, non HIPP, recordings I remember hearing as a child), the thing that convinced me of WBMP was the video series on Mersenne: once I understood the old pendulum tradition, then it made perfect sense that musicians used to the pendulum (including Maelzel himself) would treat the metronome in the same way, rather than "reinventing the wheel", as the saying goes. Once that reality hit, there was no going back.
If there's a definition of "righteous indignation", this is it.
There is something else I would like to focus on though, Wim, and that is your comment about your work being featured on national radio in the near future. I can only say "CONGRATULATIONS!", and I hope you will let us know more about this when you have more information (station, airing time, etc.).
They hate to love it...
Despite not liking Beethoven’s music (even hating it sometimes), I find your videos fascinating. I don’t know if you are right or wrong, but at least your approach is perfectly coherent.
Perhaps listening intensively and analysing one of the symphonies in these recordings, in the armchair with nothing else to do, no phone/lightbox nearby, headphones on and a big cigar or something, can change your mind. Make the effort.
@@euhdink4501 Thank you for your comment.
In fact, I have already made this effort at least four times over the years (I am 50 years old). I have two complete recordings of Beethoven’s symphonies (Gielen and Van Immerseel), and a handful of individual recordings of symphonies and piano sonatas. I like a few sonatas, I even love the 7th Symphony and some moments in the Missa solemnis. But most of the time, Beehoven’s music bores, annoys or even infuriates me - I absolutely hate his 9th symphony, especially the last movement. I can fully understand why some critics of the early 19th century hated this symphony as well, judged as barbaric.
My heart goes to early music, from the Middle Ages to the early Baroque, particularly Renaissance music. The core of Beethoven's music seems to me to be the opposite of what I love in music. In fact, it’s not just Beethoven. With some exceptions of course, I don’t like the music between Bach’s death and Debussy.
I tried, I really tried. Like Glazunov with Wagner, as he told to his students, among them Shostakovich. It worked for Bach, for Palestrina, even for Bruckner. Not for Beethoven, sorry.
22 followers? Not even worth your time. I appreciate your work! Getting ready to post a WBMP-informed performance of the Revolutionary Etude in a few days. Your work has been really eye-opening for me and I'm grateful.
Nowadays and most of us consume so much entertainment that it becomes very difficult indeed to go on a diet, and to acquire a taste for a less salty but enriched pallet. The paying is certainly NOT horrible. I enjoyed the gentle persuasiveness of the performances (havent listened to all of them yet), I think it's less stressful and tiresome to listen to, and it gives a glimpse of the monumental character of Beethoven's compositions. At the same time certain sections invoke an awareness about how estranged we are from the context of the music, leaving a feeling of the monuments being ruins, leaving us unable to truly evoke a more complete picture of the time. (play of words on a quote of Bjorn Schmelzer about the paradox in our experience of early music performances) greetings BDR
You and others are doing a good job dealing with the guy who stole your music. I'm one of the 400+ people who were shipped your box set. I love the music THANK YOU for that. I look forward to many, many more hours of listening.
The unplayable metronome marks are the proverbial “Elephant In Room”, no one wants to acknowledge the pachyderm present presence, past presence, or future presence…and want to ignore the unpopular idea that our current belief systems, what we where taught in private lessons, in school, in the university’s, in the academies…
Pls Don't get upset or discouraged Mr Winters
The World is full of hateful idiots but also full of kind intelligent people
What you do is absolutely valid and a lot of people can see that
I’ve only been able to watch about half the video, and I have to get back to work and will finish the rest later. I would say it’s understandable to get upset when someone steals your work and makes a mockery of it. I hope the videos get taken down as it’s a copyright violation. But I would advise against shining a spotlight on trolls. Giving them attention is what they want and the only way to engage with them is to not engage with them. If someone drags you down into the mud with them, they win.
Well, maybe it is about the audience too. I believe most of us in this comment section are well educated people that understand a joke or can see through troll behaviour. And even a ranting Mr. Winters is a pleasure to watch for me. The good news is as we say here: 'tall trees catch a lot of wind'.
Anyone unhappy with your tempos can change the playback speed of the videos by clicking on the settings button. Illegally copying and downloading your recordings to Bandcamp with a "corrected" tempo seems like such a waste of time.
Out of curiosity, went to look for Pianno4life and it's not exactly clear who or what the channel is.
But to one of your points; your arguments are fully developed and presented, with examples and evidence and performance, and I've yet to see a critic actually present a counter-argument accept, as you state, to say you are wrong because you are wrong. In the world of debate, this means you are winning and I suppose this makes the angry trolls even more vocal and poisonous. And personally I want to see you win because I will never be able to play 133bpm single beat but greatly enjoy the beauty and melody that exists at my stately and manageable 70bpm.
When I logged out of UA-cam and looked again at the comments, my original reply wasn't there. It merely suggested another channel (not my own) with some solid, reasoned arguments against the double-beat theory. If debate is desirable, such arguments should be considered.
The most convincing points for me (in your favor) were demonstrations of the first movement of "Moonlight" and the opening few bars of the 5th symphony. Your library research has been very impressive, but it was the sound that I found convincing. Keep fighting Mr. Winters!
That version of the 'moonlight sonata' changed my world. When I subsequently heard the beginning of the fifth explained, I was equally surprised: a real physical death knock on the door, and the 'moonshine' is not supermarket music.
I listened to 3 of symphonies in a row... I'm not terribly familiar with them. I know the themes and the jist of how they go... But they were really pleasant.
I never really cared for the symphonies... Until now...
Don't worry and hold yourself vast on the takken van the bomen: the symposia, interviews and so will certainly come, maybe more than you would like to 🙂
I just listened to the start of Benjamin Zander's audio notes on his 1999 recording of Beethoven's 5th and 7th symphonies, with the Philharmonia orchestra.
Zander: "...while I was studying the score of the fifth symphony over 25 years ago, in preparation for a performance of it with my orchestra, I became
increasingly uneasy about the fact that what I was looking at on the page differed radically from what I'd grown used to hearing in countless
performances from concerts and on records. _The most striking difference was in the tempo._ Of course I knew that Beethoven had left metronome marks
for his symphonies, but wasn't his metronome supposed to be broken? And anyway, he was so deaf he couldn't really hear the tick-tock. All sorts
of other objections crowded in, but I then began a systematic investigation of the whole question, and it actually became one of my missions in
life to try to solve the fundamental riddle of Beethoven and his tempi. But it was not only the tempi, it was also the matter of the way the
music was shaped, and articulated. It was the matter of the dynamics, and balances that posed apparently insoluble questions. ..."
Just as Zander made a systematic investigation of Beethoven, you have also investigated Beethoven. And both of you have made recordings of what you have found. I think it would be great if you had a discussion with Zander about Beethoven.
would love that
UA-cam reports that the piano4life channel isn't available. Looks like the entire channel is gone.
I do have a question though.. it’s about the 9th, it was documented that the premiere had a duration of about 1 hour and a bit. How is this possible when your reconstruction is 40 minutes for the 4th movement only?
check out my video on durations and the 1808 concert. Smart's durations have lots of issues, the book will have a chapter on him even. Btw, Beethoven said the last movement would last ca 45 minutes, something nobody talks about...
Wow really? I indeed never heard of this. Oh and I listened to the try-out recording, it was a shock at first, but the chorus was amazing! ‘Het kwam tot zijn recht’. I still like the contemporary tempi, but hearing this was a very interesting hearing experience. Thanks!
Are there any plans to expand it to the whole orchestra? I would love to hear it that way.
Did he really say that Mr W?
From what I've read, Beethoven said the symphony took 45 minutes, not just the last movement.
that's what people make of it, not what it says. what sources do you have apart from Smart's version?
I don't think you answered the question Mr W.
Did Beethoven say that 45 minutes is for the last movement only, or did he not?
And "another source apart from Smarts version"?
Do you have reasons not to trust him?
Still looking for the book!
I could listen to you for hours… 😊
I love your work.
Professional "aesthetes" can be so pretentious and delicate, as though they don't actually realize that their life's work, for all its beauty, is indulged by the productive society, and that the microscopic innovations in exchange for which they've been provided a comfortable lifestyle are not often decadent verging on utter superfluity, not to mention repeated and reproduced ad infinitum in our global musical culture where there is an orchestra providing for the lives of talented musicians in thousands upon thousands of cities worldwide. I say not to disparage musicianship as a profession, but to call attention to the psychological dynamic which would lead an ostensibly cultured, educated, professional in an artform to stoop to such ugly, bitter name calling. The mental warping which would provoke such a haughty remark, in response to a threat to the superstructure of mainstream musical practice, is comparable to the disdain and vitriol one might observe in people warring over matters of religious conviction. We can observe this process at work in all the major fields of intellectual endeavor. When the psychological inertia of thousands or millions of lives inhabiting the mainstream of an artform or a field of inquiry comes into contact with even minor truths which contradict the preconceptions of that enormous mass of human belief, the natural result is a group attempt to flatten the threatening insight under the weight of psychological pressure via shaming, belittling, like a herd of smug cows stampeding over a potential predator.
Agree.
I have to admit I find your rants entertaining though I'm sorry that behind it there is real pain. Although my musical theory knowledge is almost zero you have made what appears to me to be some very compelling arguments. The Schubert impromptus and the Alkan funeral march are for me canon now. I can't go back 👍
However, personally, I wish I could hear these recordings on a modern grand. While there's no argument this is a closer experience to what the contemporary audience would have heard in my opinion there's not the slightest doubt that if Beethoven had access to a modern piano he would have switched in an instant. It just sounds better. How much would it cost me to hire you to play the 3rd or 9th on a modern grand? (Liszt version!)
You got a point and I'd like to hear that too, but while learning a new tempo-approach we can also learn to appreciate the colours of sound used in the past. This expirience can be fascinating too.
Just listen to our symphonies on high resolution (legally 😁) and you forget about the Steinway soon, I promise. I'm absolutely not 'against' the modern piano, but for this music or this transcription especially the Steinway is no substitute!
In my opinion my argument snaps into focus once you realize that there are two possible scenarios. There is on the one hand the "analysis" mode of listening to these pieces where getting into the mindset of the composer is of paramount importance. For this a period-correct instrument is ideal. No contest. Then there is the mode of simply listening for the joy of it. For everyday casual listening almost nobody would choose a fortepiano over a modern piano. If this is not sufficiently self-evident look to Beethoven himself: why did he always upgrade to the best piano available? Is there any indication that he ever became nostalgic for the tinny old models when playing his early sonatas? Nope.
@@RasielSuarez"tinny old models" is very biased. "Bland new Grands" would be an equally biased assessment. Anyway, nothing objective to argue about here.
Also, the Sonatas were a product, for sale, and don't reflect personal tastes, rather commertial trends. Beethoven was one of the earliest independent composers, he didn't make it by ignoring the trends.
BEETHOVEN IS GOD! 🎹😈✨
Hey Wim, have you ever talked or listened or played Jazz ? What is your opinion on it ?
Several years ago, before Whole-Beat became the focus, Winters did a casual "album pics" video. It wasn't all Classical, he listens to Jazz too.
I enjoyed the first movement of the Eroica despite my dislike of harpsichord and fortepiano (particularly in the tutti). But in the parts with little bass it sounds very good. After awhile it was the transcription aspect that I noticed the most and the tempo seemed just fine.
Square Pianos in England also we’re tuned much higher at the period of time. All one has to do is survey historical tuning forks, and research pitch inflation. A Pirate edition and rubber banded faster. As to your period perfect pianoforte, the Fritz is the perfect sonic canvass, straight strung, with different timbres in the registers.
Piano for life is another Steinway modern piano enthusiast being hoodwinked by Steinway’s advertising. Piano For Life is no better than the Sophist apologist arguments against Whole Beat on. Had he doubled the Tempo in Single Beat, then he’s proven that single beat interpretation for Beethoven and Czerny is both impossible and illogical.
The enemies of this channel are almost uniformly dishonest. This is pretty outrageous, I would encourage you to get is taken off.
UA-cam already took care of it :-)
For me, this is the most beautiful recording ever made of Beethovens music, especially the 9th. The best there is. Im so grateful for your research, which I consider to be one of the most important ones of our generation. I hope to make your aquientance one day, God willing.
Thank you,
Mr Winters, Mr Gadient, and Mr. Sanna & Co
From the bottom of my heart, truly.
AKV
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." - Arthur Schopenhauer, German philosopher (1788 - 1860)
It's not a good idea to react like this to his video and spread negativity. Unfortunately there are a lot of opinions and even bullying on the internet, but the best is to ignore it and not take it personally. Simply do the copyright claim as you did.
I remember from high school during a debate among friends, one in jest said, “How dare you confuse me with the facts!!!”
sue the bastard
Nice
Frustrated musician