Ep. 122 - 5 Monolithic Bullet Facts
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- Опубліковано 2 лип 2024
- On this episode, Seth is joined by Jayden Quinlan and Preston Lentfer. The guys answer some frequently asked questions and deliver five monolithic bullet facts, including information on fouling, pressure, and terminal performance. We hope you enjoy this educational episode!
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I love your Gmx now Cx & Barnes TTSX bullets. I started deer hunting in my late teens with a Ruger stainless M77 .243. I got into hand loading & used the old Barnes hp 90gr. It gave the .243 more horsepower when hitting bone. Later I built a nice .300blk AR & loaded your 110gr Gmx to also give it more horsepower. Works great out to 100yds or so. The copper monolithic bullets are awesome for upping performance in small cartridges or using in larger cartridges for larger game like Elk, moose, bear. I like that these bullets punch through bones well & keep high retained weight. They usually exit. Which I like. I’m not in the fragile Berger hunting bullet camp. They’re accurate but too fragile. Bergers are like hunting with a varmint bullet.
I think the rule of thumb is to go big and soft or small and stout. For instance in 7mm, go with 160s and 170s for Bergers, Sierras, ELD-Xs, and SSTs, while choosing 120s, 140s, and 150s for monos like CXs, GMXs, TSXs, and E-TIPs. Bonded bullets like InterBond, AccuBond, and A-Frame are probably good throughout the velocity spectrum, but seem to thrive on speed like the monos.
@@nateaggie I agree! 👍🏻
I have swapped to solid coppers for deer for the past few seasons. I initially ran into accuracy issues but it cleared up. Recently Ron Spomer and Back Fire both addressed this. If you shoot a copper jacketed bullet, clean the barrel really good before firing solid coppers. You can go from Monolithic to jacketed bullets with no issue.
Thanks for that info. I know switching back and forth between lead and jacketed bullets without serious cleaning causes problems.
There are videos going around (Backfire and Ron Spooner) on the subject of solid bullets/accuracy/ and gun cleaning, Might be an interesting subject for you guys (that I trust) to explore. Their take is you must start with A CLEAN BORE TO GET GOOD ACCURACY FROM SOLID COPPER BULLETS! If you interchange solids with other types accuracy suffers
Totally agree that monolithic bullets punch above their weight class. I’ve had great results with *ahem* one of your competitor’s bullets on game. In the southeast where animals that run tend to quickly disappear into thick woods, I appreciate having an exit wound to provide a better blood trail.
Out of my suppressed 11.5" SBR, I have taken countless hogs with 70gr GMX TAP 5.56, and now Barnes 70gr TSX 5.56 NATO. But easily two dozen hog with the GMX. Cart-plate + lung/heart shots and every single hog dropped like it was unplugged from the matrix (most were running shots). Biggest was 380lbs boar and smallest was maybe 45lb sow. Exits were guaranteed, with massive, nasty exit wounds (bone and lung/heart chunks hanging out for the wound, usually). Both happen to be sub-minute from my Sionics 11.5" RGP barrel. Have taken both out to 500yds in a known distance range. Very impressive. Great episode!!!!
I've been waiting for this!!!
120CX in 6.5 at 2950fps is a lightning strike on whitetail. My son took his first deer with this load. Perfect boiler room shot at 220ish yards. 10 yards and dead.
Heck yeah!
Try a superperformance hand load. Managed just under 3000 with the 130 grain from a 6.5 creed w/ 20 inch barrel.. Curious to revisit it again with a 120 grain.
@@foonus406ya can push a 130 ttsx up over 3200fps w a max load of ramshot TAC
@@REDNECKROOTSin a .308 Win you can.
@@AlienMetals yea it's pretty incredible I think. Push a 130 into Magnum velocity range.
Another Great Podcast Guys , Thanks for Sharing 💯💥💥💥💥💥💥💥
Thanks for listening
Always learn something new. Thanks guys
Our pleasure!
Cheaper and easier to make, then why do you charge more?
That was in comparison to bonded lead core bullets (InterBond) that Hornady isn't making now. The old Interlock, SST, and ELD-X are indeed less expensive to make than the CX line. Lead billets are cheaper than copper alloy rod or wire stock. For bonding a lead core, all the extra work of cleaning, melting and soldering the lead to a copper jacket bumps up the price.
@@jfess1911 gotcha, thanks!
Some of us use fast twist barrels in our 270 Win. Even if you don't want to support the 6.8W, I could use a 160+ CX or a big Eld-x.
Woah ‼️ Seth brought the guns to the studio 😁🤙
Again I am posting this for the second time please provide ballistic lab proof of the 3000 ft./s for the 7mm prc. There is a storm that has been brewing over this cartridge and I suggest providing clarification or transparency I like my Hornady products and my seven PRC I understand we are under inflation but the numbers posted on the box versus reality seems to be more inflated than grocery prices right now I am on your side But I would recommend doing this as soon as possible
I'd like to see this as well.
If you look at the initial articles, most testers got around 3000fps. There had been a shortage of the original propellant and in there are batches of more recent ammo that, according to a Hornady post, used another powder that produced lower velocity. Hornady blew it by not changing the velocity on the box to represent its contents.
@@jfess1911 yeah I heard some thing about them using I think reloader 22 and the shortage caused them to switch to a different powder that doesn’t get as good a velocity but yeah they definitely should address that and not just allow people to do what they’re doing trashing Hornady the way they are. I will have to look to see if I can find any evidence they were getting around 3000 with the old powder thank you for the reminder
I've been hand loading for the 7PRC with ELD-X's and when you substitute the Reloader or H1000 for something that is available on the market like like V560 you will start to see pressure signs of a hot load long before you will get to the box rated 3000 FPS.
I find it funny all of this could be resolved if they simply printed labels for the lot and not the generic labels.
For example that 160Gr outfitter is labeled at 3000 fps yet the 175Gr ELD-X is also labeled exactly 3000 yet does almost 80 FPS less. You would know this just by looking at grain weight but its sad that the main cause of all of this is the fact that they are cheaping out on their labeling process.
FYI that same ELD-X bullet that shot avg 1.6MOA from the factory shrunk down to under half a minute with the first 6 cartridges I ever reloaded for the chambering while doing the first powder test - with the exact same spent Hornady brass from their load and the same weight ELD-X bullets.
With the CX outfitter 2 of the factory rounds were loaded so long you could not close the bolt.
@@foonus406 For what its worth, the Hodgdon reloading site lists Ramshot LRT at over 100 fps faster than H1000. Next was Accurate Magpro. I have never used them, so have no personal experience.
Great podcast. 10/10
Would’ve been an 11/10 with the mustache of wisdom. #InMilesWeTrust
It is useful to mention that lead is more than 25% more dense than copper. Turning that around, a copper alloy bullet is the same SIZE as a traditional lead core bullet that is 25% heavier. That 150 grain CX is pretty much the same size as an 185 grain lead-core bullet. For many cartridges, that also means that the volume of powder displaced by the part of the bullet in the case is the same as that heavier lead bullet. That is why the powder charge is often less.
The 160 CX, again is almost the same size as a 200 grain lead core, too big for a 7mm Rem Mag at standard twist.
I would love to see a 160 grain 6.8 western cx bullet. That would be a great do it all bullet that would kill everything around and it would still be a short action. Any plans on making an eld-x or cx 6.8 western bullet?
A 160 CX would be pretty large for the 6.8 Western. It would be roughly the same size and need the same twist as a 190 - 200 grain lead core. Copper is less dense than lead, so a copper or copper/zinc bullet tends to be about the same physical size as a lead core bullet about 25% heavier. To match the 175grain lead core bullet available for the 6.8 W, I would think you would need something closer to a 140-150 grain copper bullet. I see that Winchester sells a 162 grain Copper Impact, but I suspect that a lot of people will have accuracy issues with it. I have heard about poor accuracy from their similarly large-for-caliber 180 gr 30-06 Copper Impact load.
Thank you for mentioning the 111 grain CX for the 7.62x39 opens at lower velocities. I noticed that the 100 grain .277 GMX opened well below 2000 fps, but the updated CX version does not. It seems it went from being a 6.8 SPC bullet to a 270 Win bullet.
I want to try your 139 gr CX bullets from my 7mm Rem mag. It's got a 26" barrel, so I should get some great velocity. Thinking mule deer, black bear and elk. :) I know the CX is plenty tough enough for elk.
You three and as well as Miles are doing really well for Hornady.
First time I heard you guys use the term radius. Be interesting to see if Hammer thinks you guys are infringing on their design.
Business is business, I guess.
I only use Lehigh defense's monolithic bullets for when it counts (self defense and hunting). I use the Hornady XTPs for plinking because it is the least expensive of a bullet that I am willing to put through my barrels.
I would love to see new lead free varmint bullets. Your NTX’s are good for most standard twist barrels, I could really use a more streamlined version for the new fast twist chamberings like a 55 grain or so .224, a 65 or 70 grain 6mm option and so on. Your crew at Hornady have the tools and know how.
Side note, the original .204 30 grain NTX is amazing out of 10 and 9 inch twist .204 barrels. I’m down to my last 300 of these.
Keep up the great work. Keep adding options, and don’t forget about us varmint hunters that use lead free bullets.😅
I’m a huge Hornady fan, I love the eldx and the prc cartridges. I have a 6.5 creed that taken so so many animals it’s crazy. My biggest question I’ve had is why no support for the 6.8 western? We should be one team on fight and that 6.8 western needs the big red machine backing it, consumers win when this happens. Thanks guys.
It's Marketing my friend. If you just put out a 6.5 and 7 PRC why would you support the competition in this range and steer customers away from your product. Same is done with the production of the .17WSM rimfire ammo because they have a competing product in the .17HMR
I could understand not making bullets for the 6.8 western for a year or 2 after the 7prc come out but after that time I don't see them making bullets for the 6.8 hurting the 7prc sales but would make more off ammo sales
And it seems like Hornaday has the whole industry scared to make 6.8 ammo I don't know why Berger and Barnes don't load factory ammo for it
@@jmgates09 You're on track with both comments. The reason they forfeit the profit from the 6.8 is because they don't want to bolster "anyone else's baby" competing with own their new 7PRC. Personally I will work up a decent hand load with the Barnes LRX but ya, terrible ammo selection right now.. and considering the fact that Hornady are the ones that set the specifications on the reamers there is no excuse for 20% of their own Outfitter cartridges in the box failing to chamber.
@@jmgates09 Barnes has a factory load for the 6.8 western using a 171 grain projectile in the works. They've said the only thing holding it back is a shortage of specific raw materials.
I'm using the 250 grain Monoflex in 45-70, what is the minimum velocity for expansion? I know I'm not getting 2000 fps for very long from the muzzle. Great podcast
Regarding impact velocities: Some older rifles (e.g. 7x57) start with lower velocities due to pressure concerns in older rifles. Do you plan to offer a CX that will reliably expand at lower velocities when loaded in cartridges such as these? This is one of the things that makes the LRX attractive: 1600 fps minimum impact velocities. Great podcast, as usual.
Traditional rifling standards are changing to optimize longer BC/SD bullets but to get a monometal copper alloy 30cal to that 120+gr weight for magnum 30s may be too long for most rifling, but also how much length to bore ratio to allow before becoming overbore and over pressure, especially with a harder engraving round like coper vs lead core? If above 2000fps, a 180 or 190gr monometal tipped bullet like a cx would be my all around large animal long range getter. 30-stw would be fun with a 30” tube and some good weight or mz brake to tame shoulder schwacking
Is there any benefit to coating the monolithic projectiles with Hex-Boron Nitride (HBN)? Any difference in barrel life?
The last 2 years I have been experimenting with monolithic bullets. CX, Barnes TTSX,Hammer, and Copper Impact. I have used them to depredate agricultural fields for whitetails and hogs. The monolithic bullets just kill!! I didn’t want to think of them better than being the traditional cup and core but they are definitely changing my mind. All of the manufacturers that I listed have done great but everyone is very different as well. That being said there are manufacturers making different bullets to fit several needs. If I were to hunt a grizzly I would probably use a CX (never hunted one but the CX is a very tough bullet) for whitetails and smaller the TTSX or Hammer seem to perform a little better for me. All I have tried have a 100% kill rate. Even though they may not expand or blow apart like a cup and core I truly believe they hit harder just by the reaction of the game that was hit. One thing not mentioned in the pod cast is the fact that the trauma wound looks as bad if not worse in the body cavity but there is much less meat loss, that’s a big deal to hunters. The meat seems to be less blood shot, don’t know why but it’s an observation on every single hog and deer I’ve skinned. Monolithics do seem to have a better blood trail on average than cup and core, my experience only. I still shoot American Whitetails and Sierra HPBT in some rifles and always will but the rest I am going monolithic, not because I ever wanted to but the facts are in the proof they have shown me. Thank you for the pod casts and information you give. Your information has given me knowledge and understanding to help me load more efficiently.
With the terminal performance I’ve had with game I won’t shoot anything else! Some rounds you do need to know the range at which speed drops to low , but they hit hard and do damage in a hurry
Great podcast
Much appreciated
When are y’all going to have other bullets in 4DOF, like all of the Hammer Bullets?
It was interesting what Jim from Back Fire showed about the 7 PRC loads were 200 fps slower then advertised.
That’s not your guys fault but managements. I still really like Hornady, as most of my reloading area is Hornady red.
But I guess business is business.
I don’t care for much of Back Fires vids but some are good. I believe the Back Fire challenge is helping the long range hunting group.
Reading wind is an art! And can be hard to learn. So is shooting in general. Both decline when not sharpened or maintained regularly.
I actually got 3000 FPS dead on from the first shot I took with the 160CX outfitter from my Fierce MTN reaper with 22 inch barrel. Exactly as listed from the factory. I will mention though that 2 of the cartridges in the box (Lot 3234153) were loaded long and I was unable to close my bolt with those cartridges. Guessing I saw those velocities in a 22 inch barrel because they are loaded long into the lands with this chamber.
@@foonus406 good for you! I am a Hornady fan.
@@user-cl7jw7td5q I'm a fan of what works on target. I give the credit where its due for advertised velocity where others don't. But I have yet to find anyone online showing off .5 MOA groups with it no matter how hard i search. Both Me and my gunsmith can shoot half MOA groups but can't cut down the groups of the box outfitter CX to sub MOA on a new 7 PRC platform. The rifle manufacturer has the exact same opinion.
@@foonus406 as I stated before “good.”Hope to see you comment on Back Fire.
@@user-cl7jw7td5q I did commented with the same but nobody replied and it got buried.
HPSP is an awesome facility.
The first manufacturer to use grooves on a monolithic bullet to my knowledge was GS Bullets of South Africa.
Id really like to see a 100 or 105 grain.264 CX for deer hunting with a 6.5 grendel..
Why are you guys not pushing the efficiency of the bullet design for BC, like the Bandlands Super Bulldozers
Hornady , you guys really need to make a bonded high bc bullet for big range hunting . Something like the ablr
Benefits:
1.) Deeper penetration than lead core bullets, even with a lighter weight copper; typically 30-36" of penetration for copper
2.) Harder copper material better suited than lead core to bust through bone and keep penetrating
3.) Hornady 4DOF ballistics program has CX bullets, so you can check impact velocities and validate gyroscopic stability above 1.0 at your hunting temperature and altitude
Challenges:
1.) Requires 2k fps impact velocity, whereas lead core bullets work down to ~1600fps; affective range will be less than lead core
2.) Could have additional copper fouling vs lead core
3.) Copper is less dense than lead; BC will not be as good as lead
4.) Best in class copper bullets require a fast twist barrel; although, new cartridges such as the PRCs have fast twist
Also monos of the same grain weight are longer than lead core, and this may eat up powder space to maintain COL, which leads to slower velocities.
Narrow wound channels, shitty BCs, higher min expansion velocity needed. There’s zero benefit to copper
I love a lot of hornady products but I can’t deny I have gotten consistently better results in whitetail with Barnes and maker bullets when it comes to monolithic. The GMX didn’t seem to expand and hold together reliably and the CX seems to be better about that but I don’t feel it expands far enough, this is great for deep penetration but for medium sized and softer targets like whitetail deer it just doesn’t hit the same. Great for elk but not the medium game it seems. I would like to see Hornady make improvements to the CX by designing it to open up a bit further. I have had multiple deer that I put a 6.5 PRC outfitter straight through the heart or lungs and only found a few drops of blood because the bullet barely expands by the time it has cleared the body cavity.
I shot many boxes of Lead ammo for plinking and zeroing my rifle. Where I hunt I have to use Copper ammo. When zeroing my rifle with my Copper ammo my groups are good for hunting, but not .50 groups like shooting Lead. I cleaned my rifle before the next time I went to the range and my Copper groups were tighter. After getting great groups with my Copper hunting rounds I was nervous to plink with the Lead ammo after. It was kinda mentioned in the video that the different material in Lead and Cooper ammo can effect accuracy. I only have 1 rifle in 308 and I enjoy plinking when I can, but would I need to just used Cooper ammo for both plinking and reconfirming zero before a hunt? Copper ammo is more expensive, plus my local range is an hour away, eo i font go as iften as I would like to. Thanks for any advice.
Another good one, but I'm still waiting for that 50 BMG podcast...
I've hunted for my whole life with regular cup and core bullets and I'm going on 65.
I'll just continue to do so because I don't particularly care about what's the newest version of the scene these days.
Seth, until I saw the logo thought that shirt came from the MCX uniform shop.
Why doesn’t the .223 55gr cx bullet have a heatsheid ballistic tip?
Guys please consider bringing in the Eld-x .366 bullet. Pleaaaaaase
140 mono- flex and LVR, work well in the 30-30.
You bet!
What about busting heavy bones, and deflection of the bullet, do they still drive through, like quartering shots on elk, moose and African game?
Also, can you shoot these in a pre war drilling, 9.3x74R and which one would you suggest?
They drive straight.
@@hornady thanks, and what about them in older rifles? Like mentioned above?
Lets see if understood this at 26:36 Right..
2000 fps Velocity Impact for 1.5x dia Expansion. Not that they wont exspand below that ???
I didn't any talk about using these for long-distance hunting. I know from research, they're not much good past 450 to 600 depending on caliber and bullet weight. It doesn't worry me much since I'm a 500 and in shooter. Usually 100 to 250 for mule deer. Maybe if we all had to use monolithic bullets, tge long range fad would go away? Hmmmmm.
My take is stick with bonded in my Grendel
We have had Hollow Point bullets forever. Has anyone ever tried Hollow Tail bullets?? To remove weight and possibly lengthen the bullet for higher BCs and higher velocities??
Super sonic projectiles like to fly with the weight in the rear.
At one point in time some folks played with tubular projectiles that had a airfoil shape to them.
Crazy high velocity to them.
Not a lot of work done in small bore most of it is the 20mm and larger cartridges.
I appreciate all the videos on group sizing. Much of the info has been helpful. But one thing, I don’t believe, has been mentioned until now. BARREL CLEANING FREQUENCY
My old factory Savage 11 in 308 after 30-35 shots degrades in accuracy.
Group sizing, so far, always comes back after full cleaning of fouling and copper.
I’m still testing my 223 Wyld barrel from Preferred. That gun shoots great!!!!
👍
Can’t you make thinner walls and/or deeper hp to help them expand?
Then petals break off and you have essentially a fmj zipping through 3/4 the animal.
Some companies make copper or copper alloy bullet that expend at lower velocities. Hornady's FTX monoliths with soft tips do that but for some reason, they were not mentioned here. Many monolithic designs tend to have a velocity limit above which petals break off, but some claim they still work well like that (Hammer petals are designed to break away easily). Barnes LRX and some Cavity Back bullets are advertised to open at lower velocities, down to 1600 fps, IIRC.
Some ???
1- Barrel Cleaning with GMX /CX.. Do these tend to shoot best with clean barrel n not on top of or after the SST.. ( All coppers dont like being fired on top of jacketed lead core bullets.. to aid inthe ?)
2 GMX vs CX.. have you had any difference in accuracy or "the" load between the 2??
3 Whens the 8mm CX coming havent seen em yet.
Reason for 2 n 3 Have some GMX 8mm n would hate to get a load for them then have to start over for CX
Backfire & Ron Spomer just did a vid on cleaning before Copper bullet use to improve accuracy.
@@craigparker4108 Saw that I do believe..
I was asking Hornady as its there bullet n not 100% copper.
I also asked Ron the same ?
He lime me always clean before using Monolithics after Cup n Cores.
The still is dose one have 2 with those monitors that aint pure 100% copper.??
@@michaelwilson9986 On their website it does state the CX is Copper alloy.
@@craigparker4108 I do understand that they are a copper alloy.
However Copper 100 percent there not. When they n some went to monolithics they went with there bullet jacket alloy.
I havent as said fired enough of these to see if matters or not if the barrel is fouled with cup n core jacket. I can tell you 100% copper weather Monolithics or jacket best not on top regular cup n core.
Aren't they only for sale in Europe I would like to try them too
Are the monoliths annealed in any way?
👍👍
Is the cx really a monolithic? Or is it pure copper inside a gilding metal jacket?
Monolithic
Gilding metal is a copper/zinc alloy, but adjusting the ratio of copper to zinc changes the properties. The "GM" in the GMX bullets stood for gilding metal, fwiw, but I think that at least some the CX bullets use a slightly different alloy than the original GMX bullets.
All this math and physics is fun but really, if a 1% improvement in performance is a difference between a successful hunt and a failure then that's a shot you SHOULDN'T be taking. In my target shooting it's everything but a 1/4" or 20# of energy on an elk heart is not a "game" changer. Poor hunting isn't made up for by an extra 20 fps.
BS on the Bonded being obsolete due to the Monolithics..IMHO
Qmaxx black Dimond or blu are the best cleaner out there.
I googled it. Zinc added to copper makes it harder than pure copper.
If you like narrow wound channels and long tracking jobs then monos are a great choice.< ELDMurders
Most .308 caliber rifles are 1-10 twist. Don’t know why you said 1-12
Most these days are made 1 in 10". SAAMI spec is still 1 in 12". It's important to remember that there are a lot of barrels out there with the SAAMI spec.
Almost 5 minutes to get to the content? BS. Time is valuable.
Love Hornady and the products and information on this channel but the marketing for the PRC line is starting to get annoying. Let me explain First fix the 7prc mv yall claim it gets. And secondly you say you can use most CX bullets in most standard twist rates, and be stable on the slowest Sammi twist rate, and bullets with a gyro of 1.0 at the muzzle is needed to be stable. But then a few minutes later say a 7rem mag with 1:9 twist can’t handle a 160 CX due to a different shape than the rest of the CX line… according to 4Dof its gyro stability is 1.60 at the muzzle with 1:9 Which is very stable.. so why does it seem like conflicting information or is it just a marketing strategy to get people to buy a 7prc or any prc? Someone please correct me if I’m wrong. Just seems like a hard push for it.
Thanks for the astute comment. 1 in 9.5" is SAAMI for the 7 mag. But even that isn't the biggest factor. The 7 mag case length does not leave enough head height for the 160 CX at SAAMI 3.340" OAL. At the end of the day, there are lots of great cartridges. You have to find the one that does the job well for you.
@@hornady thank you for the response and more information than was said on the pod. Still love the channel and products!
The only amazing thing about them monolithic bullets is I will never use them.
😂 $5 off on a $500 product is NOT a good deal. Why not just say you're giving 1% off of purchase?
Plus, we all know you'll just add that money to the "shipping" fee to make that money back.
Business 101: make them feel like there is a deal while you F them on the backend
5%, shipping is included in the continental US
Why not just scroll by man, why be a douche bag?
It's 5% (PRECENT), not 5$.
These guys are clowns.
Tatted to the hilt is the hallmark of a narcissist. I like tats but not attention-seeking narcissism.
For my own hunting and through my guiding in Alaska I used the Barns X bullets to the new Barns TSX - TTSX and LRX bullets and my clients are required to bring Barns ammo for their hunts.
I have one box or Hornaday GMX 165 grain 30 cal but not shot them at any game.
The Hornaday lead core bullets are total crap and explode on impacting game then causing wounded animals I had to go look for, for the clients.
Because Hornaday bullets are bad quality I am reluctant to shoot any Hornaday bullets at game animals over deer size