He is correct. I live in the Netherlands, in one of the most fertile countries in the world, and after the US the second largest agriculture exporter in the world in terms of value. The Dutch agriculture export had a value of 124 billion US dollar in 2023. About 80 billion of that total of 124 billion was produced domestically, the other part was from trade, since we are also a big hub for importing goods to Europe, with a huge logistical industry behind that. To say that agriculture is huge in the Netherlands is an understatement, the Dutch took agriculture to the next level in every single aspect. And the university Wageningen is the most prestigious university in the field of agriculture in the entire world. Yet our country is only about 17.000 square miles big, and 18% of that is water. But around 800 or 700 years ago the population grew to ten times more people in a relative short period of time, and farmers in the region where I live started to over graze their land. On top of that the rulers of the land during that period of time were at a constant war, and they used the so called scorched earth tactics so that the enemy could not benefit from the crops and the meat that the farmers were growing. As a result the land literally started to turn into a desert. Including the development of giant moving sand dunes, that are still present as a very unique witness in the landscape to this date. But it was a huge problem because it became worse and worse. A small village and a homestead got completely buried under the sand. And there was nothing that the people in that period of time could do about it. It was just too big of an ecological disaster for the people. In a desperate attempt to stop the desertification of the land the people started planting trees. And I suppose that they also changed their farming practices, and watermanagement that the Dutch also took to the next level became a huge thing as well, because I live in that same area where all this happened, and where my house is located used to be farmers fields, and now we have at least 100 cm of pitch black soil on top of beach or desert sand. Planting the trees was helping, but it took multiple attempts by multiple generations to stop the desertification and to build up enough healthy living soil. But eventually the people succeeded. The forest is still largely in place, the sand dunes are still in place, and now it is a national park with a landscape that has some of the largest still moving sand dunes with its own desert type of micro climate in Europe. Although now everything is carefully maintained and protected and managed. And part of the forest is now a world famous theme park, with the forest still largely in place. Well worth to visit as well because it is a beautiful theme park for kids and adults. Sadly enough farming in the Netherlands has become too large of an industry. We have become too good at farming. We have the highest farm animal density per square kilometer in the world. There is a lot of nitrogen and fine dust pollution. Animals get far too much antibiotics, the risk of diseases jumping over to humans is high and has already happened in the past. Since the start of measuring there is an alarming decline of insect, bird, plant and butterfly species from 30% up to 85%. Completely extinct in just 2 centuries or so. And the species that still remain are often struggling to survive as a specie. There is a huge amount of PFAS pollution. And recently scientists reported that herbicides and pesticides used by farmers have been found miles away from where they were used, and that the chemicals have a far bigger and longer lasting damaging effect as it was assumed. There is a huge shortage of houses, and land to build houses, while the farmers own around 60% of the entire land. And they are also responsible for 60% of the nitrogen pollution, but because of environmental rules the construction companies are not even allowed to build more than a certain amount of homes. Some large infrastructure projects even had to be halted due to nitrogen regulations. And we house more animals as humans. And on average humans have to wait 12 years on a list before they can apply for an affordable house. The problem is, it is a 124 billion dollar industry. And in the US it is even bigger, if I am correct close to 200 billion. And farmers get angry and then they block the highways with their tractors. Not all the farmers are unwilling to make the change. But the most fanatic ones are also the loudest. While kids who are protesting for a better climate get arrested if they block a single intersection in a city. So what we need is a better understanding about the issues among the general public. So thank you for giving the subject this attention, because it is much needed. 👍
Hello! (Dr. Lynda, the host, here) Oh my... I can't thank you enough for this lovely and thorough response! You have improved my way of thinking so much. I'm very well traveled, but I had no idea of the agricultural complexity - or desertification - prospects for the Netherlands.. and housing more animals than humans! wowa... that is a problem that needs champion. I'm wondering if you or folks you know are trying to find collaborative solutions for all this? And that brings to mind my recent interview with Zoe Wiel.... sounds like you may be the kind of "solutionary" that she is talking about in that episode. Check it out... Episode #187, goodness-exchange.com/podcast/zoe-weil-187-solutionary-education/, and let us know more about what you know is possible!!! Thank you for being a part of the Conspiracy of Goodness of our times!!! Warmly, Dr. Lynda
@@goodness_exchange Practically there are solutions. But people here in the Netherlands are already heavily polarized. And the most fanatic people are just making stuff up and denying the facts. A bit similar to what is happening in the US. I watched the interview, the long version. And That lady Zoe is completely right. I am not at that stage yet. I am getting close to being able to check a few boxes of being a solutionary, but I am not there yet. I know about people who are, and they could use some extra attention. I have an aquaponics system, and I am trying to learn more about it and to make it work as perfect as I possibly can as I go with the limitted resources that I have. It means that I grow fish in a pond, and the waste materials that the fish produce is used to grow fruit and vegetables. I have 4 growbeds, those growbeds are square yard bins filled with lava rocks. I pump the pond water inside those bins, and when the water inside those bins reaches a certain level it automatically drains completely empty back into the pond. Aerobic bacteria that live on the surfaces from all those rocks convert the waste materials that are produced by the fish into plant available nutrients. I have planted strawberry plants in the rock gravel, but also chive, and a laurel tree and monks cress. And I am trying new crops as I go. But it does require some knowledge about micro biology and water quality and chemistry that I did not have when I started this whole....backyard study...of how to grow food as efficient and as least pollutant as possible. Proteïnes and vegetables in a single closed loop system that doesn't deplete the existing nature and resources, but that adds to nature and its bio diversity. But that is how I started to understand how important micro organisms are for our entire food production, but also for the bio diversity, and also for our climate. So I learned about the existence of a lady with the name Dr. Elaine Ingham. And I learned about regenerative farming, and I learned about permaculture with Geoff Lawton and his greening the desert project in Jordan, which is fascinating. And there is Project Kamp in Europe from a group of young people who bought a piece of land and they want to do create a regenerative permaculture food forest. And there is an organization called Mossy Earth and they do all kind of nature restoration and preservation projects all over the world. An organization called Just Digit does wonderful work with reforestation and education in African countries. There is also a group called the carbon cowboys who are doing great work in the U.S. with no till farming practices. And there are plenty more organizations that I do not even know. But they are all islands. And I do not have the resources and capabilities to connect them all. I do know that there is a whole international community starting to emerge who are starting a homestead or farm based on the principles of permaculture, by implementing various methods to catch and preserve rainwater as much as possible. I am in contact with a part of that international group of people. So I am not there yet myself, but I gave you enough leads to highly skilled and/or educated people with a proven record to fill several of your shows. They have solutions and the skill set to bring it forward. Compared to them I do not even come close to their skills and knowledge.
I've discussed this subject at length, but from a different angle since I'm a blacksmith and amateur historian of the traditional trades. I love history and putting into practice what I find in old books and such.... and the one pattern that repeats time and time again is that folks don't do what I call "Tending the Garden". As Roger notes, European/Western people don't generally think several generations ahead, especially when it means they might have to make a sacrifice today. To illustrate this, I often point to the Story of the Scythe. Did anyone know that the Scythe is still commonly used in Eastern Europe, the nations that were once behind the Iron Curtain? Because of communism, the countries couldn't "advance" like we did in the West, so they had to rely on tools that were easy to make and repair. As a result, we can watch videos on UA-cam where everyday people living in everyday homes are using a scythe to quickly and efficiently maintain their lawns. What does that mean, though? Why is the Story of the Scythe so important? Turns out that it's one of those "one decision at a time" moments where nobody was thinking critically, or thinking two generations ahead. When the West was able to "modernize" due to the Industrial Revolution and Capitalist System that allowed for private property and the like.... along with that came a ton of folks who were sure they had an easier way. The snakes in the grass, the salesmen, assured folks that they had something that'd make the average person's life better... but nobody stopped to think about the 2nd Order and 3rd Order Effects of anything. They might have said they were "doing it for the children", but that's what people always say to justify getting what they want right then and there. When you watch people using the Scythe in those videos from Eastern European nations, you can see that they are as fast or faster than a weed whacker. Now stop and think about the differences between the two in the larger picture. Which one can be made by a small shop in town... and which requires a huge factory with all manner of complicated machinery? Which one is simply a bit of steel and wood, and which is made from metals and plastics? Which requires more energy to produce, yet doesn't last nearly as long? Between the manufacturing, packaging, and transporting to a store near you, the string trimmers or several orders of magnitude worse for the environment than the scythe, and for no measurable gain. The string trimmers aren't faster or lighter or easier to use. And they fill the weekends with the "delightful" screeching we've all come to know and love. What else have we lost as a result? What about the blacksmith shops that once produced scythes as a part of their catalog offered to local customers? Sure, it might only have been one of many items offered for sale, but as more and more people opted for mass-produced stuff made miles away (and now on the other side of the globe!), more and more local businesses had to close down. This killed the rural communities, and it also killed the Sense of Place, the pride people had in their small corners of the world. We sacrificed much because we were promised something that was easier and faster and better and trendier, and we never stopped to think about the actual costs. Time and time again, you see this happening, and it's always based on people not wanting to Tend The Garden. If we think about society in terms of a garden, we have to admit that there are weeds that need to be pulled, fences that need to be maintained, and it's constant work. This doesn't mean that you don't learn and grow, but that you must be ever ready to simply say no. When Mr. Savory talks about the "fear" of something new, he's not wrong, but we also must be very careful about attributing someone's uncertainty to "fear" when it could just be common sense and a cautious eye. The Story of the Scythe shows us that there have always been the forked-tongues out there, and that their whispers of a great future often come at a far higher price than they led to believe. Where would we be today if we'd not adopted the string trimmers and other mechanized monstrosities? What damage to our ecosystem would we not be currently dealing with? I know it's not easy to really ponder this because we can see the same behaviors in ourselves. We all complain about how "we don't build nice things anymore" while we also demand the lowest prices and the greatest convenience. We could build Great Cathedrals like they did in Europe a few centuries back, but that requires an appreciation for your Culture, Heritage, and Traditions. It requires you to support the craftsmen every day, for years on end, so they can grow into the Master Craftsmen needed to build the Grand Architecture that once graced our nations. We talk about how it'd be nice to fix the ecosystem or have local food production, but then we support laws, policies, taxes and regulations that make it impossible for anything to get done. We don't think about the 2nd Order and 3rd Order Effects of things, especially if it means not getting what we think we want in the moment. Whether we're taking about The Story of the Scythe, or Piedmont Sprawl, the pattern is the same, and the Effects are often not attributed to the Causes long passed.
Terrific! I suspect we can all have some impact on the spread and success of this concept. We are very excited to watch how this idea spreads... Already over 1,000 views of this episode. That's a lot of inspired people! - Dr. Lynda
Dr. Lynda, the host, here! I agree!!! This guy has a concept that could change the planet and Joe should be adding voices like this to what he is amplifying! Let his people know about Rodger... your nudge could change the future for all of us. You never know! Warmly, Dr. Lynda
me too!!! Help me spread the word. All he needs is some corporate backing... some company that wants to take this on as their CSR (Corporate Social Responsibility) effort, and Rodger could change our shared future! - Dr. Lynda
I am not a natural born number cruncher, but, here goes... Instead of carbon credits, is there such a thing as water credits? Example: If someone was to need X number of tax deductions/credits, then they would purchase and donate X head of cattle to the project. It sounds as though someone needs to invent a way to purchase a cow, and donate it, as a water credit.
Hello! (Dr. Lynda, the host, here) I suspect that is a big part of the equation here. Even if - as Rodger suggests - they are only the first step in a series of livestock being moved on to the next place that soil health can be reclaimed. I hope you heard that part of the concept he is proposing in the interview... the possibilities intrigued me too!) Thanks!!! - Dr. L
He is correct. I live in the Netherlands, in one of the most fertile countries in the world, and after the US the second largest agriculture exporter in the world in terms of value. The Dutch agriculture export had a value of 124 billion US dollar in 2023. About 80 billion of that total of 124 billion was produced domestically, the other part was from trade, since we are also a big hub for importing goods to Europe, with a huge logistical industry behind that. To say that agriculture is huge in the Netherlands is an understatement, the Dutch took agriculture to the next level in every single aspect. And the university Wageningen is the most prestigious university in the field of agriculture in the entire world.
Yet our country is only about 17.000 square miles big, and 18% of that is water. But around 800 or 700 years ago the population grew to ten times more people in a relative short period of time, and farmers in the region where I live started to over graze their land. On top of that the rulers of the land during that period of time were at a constant war, and they used the so called scorched earth tactics so that the enemy could not benefit from the crops and the meat that the farmers were growing. As a result the land literally started to turn into a desert. Including the development of giant moving sand dunes, that are still present as a very unique witness in the landscape to this date. But it was a huge problem because it became worse and worse. A small village and a homestead got completely buried under the sand. And there was nothing that the people in that period of time could do about it. It was just too big of an ecological disaster for the people.
In a desperate attempt to stop the desertification of the land the people started planting trees. And I suppose that they also changed their farming practices, and watermanagement that the Dutch also took to the next level became a huge thing as well, because I live in that same area where all this happened, and where my house is located used to be farmers fields, and now we have at least 100 cm of pitch black soil on top of beach or desert sand. Planting the trees was helping, but it took multiple attempts by multiple generations to stop the desertification and to build up enough healthy living soil. But eventually the people succeeded.
The forest is still largely in place, the sand dunes are still in place, and now it is a national park with a landscape that has some of the largest still moving sand dunes with its own desert type of micro climate in Europe. Although now everything is carefully maintained and protected and managed. And part of the forest is now a world famous theme park, with the forest still largely in place. Well worth to visit as well because it is a beautiful theme park for kids and adults.
Sadly enough farming in the Netherlands has become too large of an industry. We have become too good at farming. We have the highest farm animal density per square kilometer in the world. There is a lot of nitrogen and fine dust pollution. Animals get far too much antibiotics, the risk of diseases jumping over to humans is high and has already happened in the past. Since the start of measuring there is an alarming decline of insect, bird, plant and butterfly species from 30% up to 85%. Completely extinct in just 2 centuries or so. And the species that still remain are often struggling to survive as a specie. There is a huge amount of PFAS pollution. And recently scientists reported that herbicides and pesticides used by farmers have been found miles away from where they were used, and that the chemicals have a far bigger and longer lasting damaging effect as it was assumed. There is a huge shortage of houses, and land to build houses, while the farmers own around 60% of the entire land. And they are also responsible for 60% of the nitrogen pollution, but because of environmental rules the construction companies are not even allowed to build more than a certain amount of homes. Some large infrastructure projects even had to be halted due to nitrogen regulations. And we house more animals as humans. And on average humans have to wait 12 years on a list before they can apply for an affordable house.
The problem is, it is a 124 billion dollar industry. And in the US it is even bigger, if I am correct close to 200 billion. And farmers get angry and then they block the highways with their tractors. Not all the farmers are unwilling to make the change. But the most fanatic ones are also the loudest. While kids who are protesting for a better climate get arrested if they block a single intersection in a city. So what we need is a better understanding about the issues among the general public. So thank you for giving the subject this attention, because it is much needed. 👍
Hello! (Dr. Lynda, the host, here) Oh my... I can't thank you enough for this lovely and thorough response! You have improved my way of thinking so much. I'm very well traveled, but I had no idea of the agricultural complexity - or desertification - prospects for the Netherlands.. and housing more animals than humans! wowa... that is a problem that needs champion. I'm wondering if you or folks you know are trying to find collaborative solutions for all this? And that brings to mind my recent interview with Zoe Wiel.... sounds like you may be the kind of "solutionary" that she is talking about in that episode. Check it out... Episode #187, goodness-exchange.com/podcast/zoe-weil-187-solutionary-education/, and let us know more about what you know is possible!!! Thank you for being a part of the Conspiracy of Goodness of our times!!! Warmly, Dr. Lynda
@@goodness_exchange Practically there are solutions. But people here in the Netherlands are already heavily polarized. And the most fanatic people are just making stuff up and denying the facts. A bit similar to what is happening in the US.
I watched the interview, the long version. And That lady Zoe is completely right. I am not at that stage yet. I am getting close to being able to check a few boxes of being a solutionary, but I am not there yet. I know about people who are, and they could use some extra attention.
I have an aquaponics system, and I am trying to learn more about it and to make it work as perfect as I possibly can as I go with the limitted resources that I have. It means that I grow fish in a pond, and the waste materials that the fish produce is used to grow fruit and vegetables.
I have 4 growbeds, those growbeds are square yard bins filled with lava rocks. I pump the pond water inside those bins, and when the water inside those bins reaches a certain level it automatically drains completely empty back into the pond. Aerobic bacteria that live on the surfaces from all those rocks convert the waste materials that are produced by the fish into plant available nutrients. I have planted strawberry plants in the rock gravel, but also chive, and a laurel tree and monks cress. And I am trying new crops as I go.
But it does require some knowledge about micro biology and water quality and chemistry that I did not have when I started this whole....backyard study...of how to grow food as efficient and as least pollutant as possible. Proteïnes and vegetables in a single closed loop system that doesn't deplete the existing nature and resources, but that adds to nature and its bio diversity.
But that is how I started to understand how important micro organisms are for our entire food production, but also for the bio diversity, and also for our climate. So I learned about the existence of a lady with the name Dr. Elaine Ingham. And I learned about regenerative farming, and I learned about permaculture with Geoff Lawton and his greening the desert project in Jordan, which is fascinating. And there is Project Kamp in Europe from a group of young people who bought a piece of land and they want to do create a regenerative permaculture food forest. And there is an organization called Mossy Earth and they do all kind of nature restoration and preservation projects all over the world. An organization called Just Digit does wonderful work with reforestation and education in African countries. There is also a group called the carbon cowboys who are doing great work in the U.S. with no till farming practices.
And there are plenty more organizations that I do not even know. But they are all islands. And I do not have the resources and capabilities to connect them all. I do know that there is a whole international community starting to emerge who are starting a homestead or farm based on the principles of permaculture, by implementing various methods to catch and preserve rainwater as much as possible. I am in contact with a part of that international group of people.
So I am not there yet myself, but I gave you enough leads to highly skilled and/or educated people with a proven record to fill several of your shows. They have solutions and the skill set to bring it forward. Compared to them I do not even come close to their skills and knowledge.
I've discussed this subject at length, but from a different angle since I'm a blacksmith and amateur historian of the traditional trades. I love history and putting into practice what I find in old books and such.... and the one pattern that repeats time and time again is that folks don't do what I call "Tending the Garden". As Roger notes, European/Western people don't generally think several generations ahead, especially when it means they might have to make a sacrifice today.
To illustrate this, I often point to the Story of the Scythe. Did anyone know that the Scythe is still commonly used in Eastern Europe, the nations that were once behind the Iron Curtain? Because of communism, the countries couldn't "advance" like we did in the West, so they had to rely on tools that were easy to make and repair. As a result, we can watch videos on UA-cam where everyday people living in everyday homes are using a scythe to quickly and efficiently maintain their lawns.
What does that mean, though? Why is the Story of the Scythe so important?
Turns out that it's one of those "one decision at a time" moments where nobody was thinking critically, or thinking two generations ahead. When the West was able to "modernize" due to the Industrial Revolution and Capitalist System that allowed for private property and the like.... along with that came a ton of folks who were sure they had an easier way. The snakes in the grass, the salesmen, assured folks that they had something that'd make the average person's life better... but nobody stopped to think about the 2nd Order and 3rd Order Effects of anything. They might have said they were "doing it for the children", but that's what people always say to justify getting what they want right then and there.
When you watch people using the Scythe in those videos from Eastern European nations, you can see that they are as fast or faster than a weed whacker. Now stop and think about the differences between the two in the larger picture. Which one can be made by a small shop in town... and which requires a huge factory with all manner of complicated machinery? Which one is simply a bit of steel and wood, and which is made from metals and plastics? Which requires more energy to produce, yet doesn't last nearly as long? Between the manufacturing, packaging, and transporting to a store near you, the string trimmers or several orders of magnitude worse for the environment than the scythe, and for no measurable gain. The string trimmers aren't faster or lighter or easier to use. And they fill the weekends with the "delightful" screeching we've all come to know and love.
What else have we lost as a result? What about the blacksmith shops that once produced scythes as a part of their catalog offered to local customers? Sure, it might only have been one of many items offered for sale, but as more and more people opted for mass-produced stuff made miles away (and now on the other side of the globe!), more and more local businesses had to close down. This killed the rural communities, and it also killed the Sense of Place, the pride people had in their small corners of the world. We sacrificed much because we were promised something that was easier and faster and better and trendier, and we never stopped to think about the actual costs.
Time and time again, you see this happening, and it's always based on people not wanting to Tend The Garden. If we think about society in terms of a garden, we have to admit that there are weeds that need to be pulled, fences that need to be maintained, and it's constant work. This doesn't mean that you don't learn and grow, but that you must be ever ready to simply say no.
When Mr. Savory talks about the "fear" of something new, he's not wrong, but we also must be very careful about attributing someone's uncertainty to "fear" when it could just be common sense and a cautious eye. The Story of the Scythe shows us that there have always been the forked-tongues out there, and that their whispers of a great future often come at a far higher price than they led to believe.
Where would we be today if we'd not adopted the string trimmers and other mechanized monstrosities? What damage to our ecosystem would we not be currently dealing with?
I know it's not easy to really ponder this because we can see the same behaviors in ourselves. We all complain about how "we don't build nice things anymore" while we also demand the lowest prices and the greatest convenience. We could build Great Cathedrals like they did in Europe a few centuries back, but that requires an appreciation for your Culture, Heritage, and Traditions. It requires you to support the craftsmen every day, for years on end, so they can grow into the Master Craftsmen needed to build the Grand Architecture that once graced our nations.
We talk about how it'd be nice to fix the ecosystem or have local food production, but then we support laws, policies, taxes and regulations that make it impossible for anything to get done. We don't think about the 2nd Order and 3rd Order Effects of things, especially if it means not getting what we think we want in the moment. Whether we're taking about The Story of the Scythe, or Piedmont Sprawl, the pattern is the same, and the Effects are often not attributed to the Causes long passed.
Yeah, because most humans throughout history have been incapable of thinking beyond their own narrow existence.
Great interview 👍
This sounds promising, I’ll give it a try!
Terrific! I suspect we can all have some impact on the spread and success of this concept. We are very excited to watch how this idea spreads... Already over 1,000 views of this episode. That's a lot of inspired people! - Dr. Lynda
He needs to watch Elaine Ingham and the soil food web
I like that idea of Walmart paying the bill!
When everyone does holistic the value returns to what it was before since the market would be flooded with only holistic beef.
Get him on Joe Rogan podcast
Dr. Lynda, the host, here! I agree!!! This guy has a concept that could change the planet and Joe should be adding voices like this to what he is amplifying! Let his people know about Rodger... your nudge could change the future for all of us. You never know! Warmly, Dr. Lynda
Hope he gets the financing to make this happen! 👍
me too!!! Help me spread the word. All he needs is some corporate backing... some company that wants to take this on as their CSR (Corporate Social Responsibility) effort, and Rodger could change our shared future! - Dr. Lynda
I am not a natural born number cruncher, but, here goes...
Instead of carbon credits, is there such a thing as water credits?
Example:
If someone was to need X number of tax deductions/credits, then they would purchase and donate X head of cattle to the project.
It sounds as though someone needs to invent a way to purchase a cow, and donate it, as a water credit.
I would love to see feedlots go away. 😊
Hello! (Dr. Lynda, the host, here) I suspect that is a big part of the equation here. Even if - as Rodger suggests - they are only the first step in a series of livestock being moved on to the next place that soil health can be reclaimed. I hope you heard that part of the concept he is proposing in the interview... the possibilities intrigued me too!) Thanks!!! - Dr. L